Bodiam Castle

This castle is unique in its design and the extent to which the ground surrounding it are part of that design. It’s also closely tied to the turbulent period in England’s history that runs from the Hundred Years War, through the Wars of the Roses.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Uh, Tracy,
I have in the that we haven't really covered an
iconic place in a while. Yeah, we talked a little

(00:22):
about Griffith Park, but that was more about Griffith J. Griffith. Yeah.
So I went through my list for one and I
landed at Bodium Castle, which has been on there for
a while. And I had to give the true confession
up front. There are people listening who might already know this. Uh,
this castle came to my attention for sort of a
silly reason, and I'm gonna save that silly reason for
the end because it is a very small, silly reason

(00:46):
and it doesn't really have anything to do with the
castle's history. Uh. This castle is pretty unique in its
design and the extent to which the grounds surrounding it
are all part of that design. And it is also
closely tied to the very turbulent ariad in England's history
that runs from the Hundred Years War through the War
of the Roses, including the Peasants Revolt, which may have

(01:08):
influenced the castle's construction and how it was designed. It
is also tied to the lives of a lot of people,
as you might suspect for something that is this old.
But there is one man in particular, Sir Edward dallen Gridge,
who is kind of synonymous with the castle, so it becomes,
at least in part, a story about his life. And
what I really love is that this is one of

(01:28):
those cases where even in recent years, this medieval structure
has continued to yield some surprises. I know what the
surprises are, and I'm really excited. They're very cool. Yeah.
The location of the land that Bodiam Castle sits on
has a long history of being recognized as valuable. It

(01:49):
sits on the River Rother. That river runs roughly horizontally
connecting East Sussex to the English Channel, kind of the
east to west situation, and it was valued because it
was wide enough to be a trading river when the
Romans invaded Britain in forty three. After the Romans, there
were early English settlers in the region who probably named

(02:10):
the place Bodha's Ham as an hamlet village, and then
that name eventually morphed into Bodium. But the person whose
name is most closely associated with the castle, as we said,
is Sir Edward dalen Gridge. Dalen Gridge was not in
a good place to inherit in the birth order. He
was the youngest son in his family. The family estate

(02:32):
was going to pass to his older brothers. He was born,
most likely in thirty six, to father Roger dalen Gridge
and mother Alice Rattingdon. This was a point when the
family was actually rising in position. Edward's grandfather John had
married up, so to speak, when he wed Joana Lynde,
increasing the family's landholdings, and Roger had made a similar

(02:54):
lucrative move when he married Alice. And his teen years
Edward dalen Gridge was already engaged as a soldier. His father, Roger,
was a knight under Queen Philippa, and in thirteen fifty
nine Edward accompanied his father in service to the Earl
of Arundel when their company went into France during a conflict.
This was the start of a long career of military service,

(03:15):
and Edward became a knight in the thirteen sixties. Yeah,
if you're doing the math there, that puts him at
thirteen when he is going on these military missions with
his father, which was in fact the case, although he
didn't become knighted obviously until he was a little more adult.
Just as his father and grandfather had bolstered the family
fortune through marriage, Edward in turn married a woman from

(03:37):
a more prosperous family than his own, that was Elizabeth Wardeux.
Edward's marriage had been arranged by his father Roger, and
Elizabeth's father, John Ward, died in thirteen seventy seven. At
this point, Edward came into possession of a number of
parcels of land, including a manner at bodium Um. You
will see different calculations of the size of the acreage

(04:00):
of the properties, because obviously those property lines don't really
exist anymore. I have seen everything from seven hundred and
fifty acres too far larger, So a lot of land.
While the other real estate had various uses and Dalin
Gridge eventually became one of the most wealthy landowners of
his time. He decided that Bodium was going to be

(04:21):
his home. He sold off a lot of his other
inherited properties, gaining additional wealth, some of which was used
to finance the work that he planned for the Bodium estate.
He also purchased additional properties in Sussex to expand his
land holdings near Bodium by an estimated hundred acres. In
three he was granted a royal charter to hold an

(04:42):
annual fair there as well as the weekly market. Yeah
he was just settling right in dalin Gridge is estimated
to have been one of the wealthiest landowners in the area,
and that wealth was augmented by annual payments made through
various agreements and patronages that were arranged during his military career,
various diplomatic efforts, including forty pounds annually from the Duke

(05:04):
of Sussex In addition to knighthood, and a military career
in which he participated in most of the major efforts
against France, he had a variety of other jobs and titles,
including serving as Master Forrester for the lands of Edward,
Lord Despencer. He also represented Sussex in Parliament on nine
occasions beginning in thirteen seventy nine, so in less than

(05:27):
a century the family had ascended to be wealthy as
well as important in affairs of state. Initially, Podium was
to be the site of just a manner home dalen
Gridge was still a night during this time. He wanted
a place to live. He'd also amassed a significant fortune
in his travels at war as well as through various
appointments and associations. Plundering was kind of part of the

(05:50):
income package for Knights, and dalen Gridge had made the
most of this. It's believed that he profited from ransoming
captured captives a lot of time. Yeah, which sounds horrible,
but was kind of business as usual for the the
setup um. Two years after his home was completed, England

(06:11):
found itself in an escalation of the conflict with France
that threatened to approach Bodium manner. More than one thousand
French ships had amassed across the channel and it was
believed that they would soon attack sort of. So, uh,
there's a little bit of debate here about how real
the threat actually was to Bodium and what really inspired

(06:31):
edwards next move, and we're going to get to that
in a moment. But what this threat meant, because there
were French ships amassing across the channel, Uh, this meant
that the estate's home had to be fortified. But Edward
Dallingridge opted to go a different route. He decided that
he was going to build an entirely new structure, a castle,

(06:52):
rather than just augment the existing house. So it may
seem like there's kind of a head scratcher for some
folks here, because the main threat was the French crossing
the channel. But Bodium is not actually on the coast.
If you look at it on a map, the distance
between it and Hastings Beach, which is almost immediately to
the south, is roughly thirteen miles almost twenty one kilometers.

(07:15):
So presumably the thinking was that the French with land
and then advanced into England. Also, there's that river there
that connects directly to the channel. Yeah, so there were
ways that France could have advanced fairly quickly to Bodium,
but it wasn't really in the immediate line of attack.
But Darling Gridge was also tasked by King Richard the Second,
who of course was very young still at this time,

(07:36):
to head the preparations for a possible invasion by the
French in Sussex. So he didn't just decide to fortify
strictly on his own, although it seems that the scope
of the fortification was something that he had kind of
decided on when Chelsea, which sits at the point where
the River Rother and the English Channel meet, was rated.

(07:57):
Once they crossed the channel, that was where they went.
So this did seem to start to be very real.
Dling Bridge had led the fortification process of Win She'll
see several years earlier in eight and also Rye beginning
in two, so he was a natural choice to give
responsibility to when it came to making fortifications inland, and
that of course would have extended to his own property.

(08:20):
The King gave his permission for the Bodium Castle project,
and that license was for fortification and crenelation, meaning that
it was intended to augment the existing home. The exact
phrasing regarding this was that he wasn't able to quote
strengthen with a wall of stone and lime and crenelate
and construct and make into a castle his manor house

(08:42):
at Bodium, which is Bodium near the sea in the
county of Sussex, for defense of the adjacent county and
resistance to our enemies. So in choosing to build an
entirely new structure about a kilometer away from the first
his manner home, it seems like this is maybe a
broad interpretation of that document. When you hear historians talk

(09:06):
about it or they write about it, crenelation is like
the hot word, um, and this is something that continues
to be debated. Right, So what exactly was the function
and purpose of this castle and why did he make
that choice? Rather than crenelation in its strict sense. But
all researchers have in terms of surviving paperwork is that

(09:26):
crenelation document, that permission document. The rest has been interpreted
over the years based on the available evidence and what
the castle actually turned out to be, and that means
that different people have had different theories about how the
castle was conceived and used, and that's based largely on
his floor plan. We'll get to some of that interpretation
after we come back from a quick sponsor break. Give

(09:56):
me recall if you're a regular listener, that we talked
about what Tyler and the uprising of one on the
podcast in June of That event, sometimes called the peasant Revolt,
was the result of economic troubles that had been brewing
for decades leading up to the point where poll taxes
are being levied against the people of the country to

(10:17):
finance at least in part, the ongoing conflict with France.
So for someone like Dalin Gridge, who was very wealthy
and who in his official duties, had helped put down
that rebellion, there was also a vested interest in protecting
his home and family, and that probably further informed his
decision to build a full fledged castle rather than just

(10:39):
build onto his existing home. Also, there are some interpretations
of the castle's design and structure that come to the
conclusion that more than offering protection from French forces or
any internal uprising, this construction may well have been built
for show and status. You just look at a picture,

(11:00):
you can kind of see how folks might come to
that conclusion. Some of the fortifications don't seem all that robust,
such as the walls being relatively thin. So we'll now
talk about the actual work on the castle. Yeah, I
read a cute I shouldn't say it's cute, it's scholarly work.
But it was a fun discussion of how like look,

(11:23):
he was kind of like neu Veau Reese and trying
to show everybody he was fancy. Um, that is one theory.
The construction of Bodium Castle was very different from most
others because it was conceived in its entirety and then
built all at once. Uh. This is different than most
examples of castles that we have because most were built

(11:43):
in stages, either as needed doing something like that crenelation
that was discussed, or as funds were available. Also, you know,
there are things that happened historically, like you know, ahead
of family dying in their offspring, deciding how to proceed
with the design and how that changes it. But it
as a consequence, Bodium has this rare distinction of being

(12:04):
really uniform in its appearance since it was also intended
to replace the manor home as the primary residence of
the estate. Bodium Castle is also unusual because the design
is for comfort as well as protection. It's emerging of
strategic defensive design and domicile arrangement. The exterior structure is

(12:24):
almost a perfect square, with round towers at the corners
of the square and smaller square towers along the walls
connecting the corners. The interior of the castle has not
been restored, but enough remains that the floor plan is
possible to discern. There was a huge interior court within
the castle, and there were apartment areas that were separated

(12:45):
off for the family's use. On the east side of
the building, with other areas that would have specifically been
for staff. There was also a chapel and a grand hall.
It's kind of cool the way the bed chamber is designed.
They would have been able to stand basically at window
of their bed chamber and look into the chapels, so
they wouldn't have had to leave their room to to
have to be part of services. Uh. There was also

(13:08):
a buttery which I want to put in my house,
a pantry and a kitchen uh. And in the kitchen
would have been to fireplaces. Those would have been kept
going constantly year round to meet the various needs of
the castle. Most of the castle is two stories. The
towers are three in the northwest tower also included a prison.
The entire castle is built of sandstone ashlar, which was

(13:30):
quarried about eleven miles from the site at Wadhurst. The
grounds were also landscaped while the castle was being constructed.
The whole design was intended to be visually appealing as
well as functional and at least in theory, able to
withstand battle and defend the inhabitants. The river was diverted
once again with a license from the King and a mill.

(13:52):
Pond and mill were both created under Darrange's instructions. The
land surrounding the castle was entirely transformed. Researchers writing about
all the landscaping quote the castle and its moat thus
form the center of an elaborate modification of the whole landscape,
involving the creation of a number of ponds and sheets

(14:14):
of water whose positioning has an ornamental impact. Yeah, definitely
designed to be pretty as well as a strong, at
least in theory. And in some cases these details that
created really a very picturesque estate were used in ways
that may seem odd or off putting today. For example,
there is, as Tracy just mentioned, a moat and that

(14:36):
surrounds the entire castle structure. The moat is roughly a
hundred and fifteen by a hundred and fifty five and
it is quite pretty, and when viewed from above, it
frames the castle fairly perfectly. The castle itself sits just
slightly south of the center of the frame that's created
by the moat. In the moat, which isn't exactly square,
it's more of a wedge shape, would naturally make it

(14:57):
difficult to approach the castle on horseback. Were on foot
with any kind of strength, so to enter you would
have to pass over a bridge and hit a small island,
and then pass over another to get to a barbicane,
and once through that you could continue to the north gate.
There was also a small back entrance on the south
wall of the gate, which also had to be approached

(15:18):
by bridge. But this protective moat was actually sort of gross,
as moats often were, because it was used for sewage.
All the raw waste from the castle was dumped into it,
and this undoubtedly made its smell horrifyingly bad, which justice
speculation here might have also had a deterrent effect for
any unwanted visitors, even for visitors who were expected and desired.

(15:43):
The moat and landscape and bridges that were used to
actually get to the castle, had anyone approaching, turning and
rounding the castle in ways that some researchers have theorized
might have been attended to show off the grandness of
the building in the grounds. I like the idea you
have the sort of exterior tour by the convoluted way

(16:04):
of getting in there turned right at the island. Supporting
this whole idea is evidence of a garden structure built
on a high ridge north of the castle, which would
have offered a spectacular view of the grounds. Also included
in the castle design were keyhole gun ports, which were
not common in private residence castles and weren't really all

(16:27):
that practical, but certainly would have let visitors know that
Dalen Gridge was aware of the latest trends and battlement design.
My castle's fancy. Uh well, we don't have a lot
of information about is the construction process itself, or exactly
how long it took for this castle to be completed.
Based on records, it was done by the early or

(16:48):
mid nineties, so estimates put the construction time at less
than ten years, sometimes far less. But here's the thing.
For all of that work, the French never attacked Bodium.
In June d nine, while the castle was likely still
under construction. The Truce of Lullingham ended the second phase
of the Hundred Years War. In thirteen Dallen Gridge was

(17:09):
made a member of the King's Council. That was a
role in which he served until thirteen ninety three, and
as part of his duties, he went to France again,
this time to survey defenses in Calais and overlapping duty
was also given him when he was made Keeper of
London in June of two uh That duty was taken
from him the following months because he was determined to

(17:31):
be too lenient. This is when there was a lot
of unrest going on in London and Dally Gridge died
somewhere between this point where that job was rescinded and
the spring of thirteen ninety four when he is listed
in records as deceased. That would put him somewhere around
forty seven years old, so he barely had time to

(17:51):
enjoy his grand castle and grounds. Bodium Castle remained in
the ownership of Sir Edward dalling Gridge's descendants, but eventually
there were no dallen Grids left and the castle was
gained by the Lukener family in marriage. That was in
the mid fourteen hundreds. The Wars of the Roses would
be the next pivotal historical events in the story of

(18:12):
the castle, because Sir Thomas Luchner was on the Lancastrian
side of the war, the opposite side of Richard the Third.
The King ordered an attack on Bodian and the castle
was surrendered. There is actually a pretty decent likelihood that
no real attack took place here, that the Lukeners surrendered
before there was any violence at all. When Richard the

(18:35):
third was killed at the Battle of Bosworth and Henry
the seventh took the throne, the castle was returned to
the Lukener family, and it remained a Lukener property until
the mid sixteen hundreds. At the end of that line,
the estate was divvied up and it passed through a
number of hands. During the period from the mid fifteen
hundreds to the eighteen hundreds, lots of different people owned Bodium,

(18:56):
but nobody actually lived there. The castle was unfortunately uncared for,
and it fell into ruin. None of its owners seemed
to really pay much of any attention to the structure
in any meaningful way, and so it was purchased by
politician John Fuller in eight although it had attracted tourists
before then. We're going to talk about Fuller's plans for

(19:18):
the once grand structure in just a moment, but before
we do, we'll take a break and hear from the
sponsors that keep stuff you missed in history class going.
So we talked right before the break about John Fuller
acquiring Bodium Castle, and Fuller and the next two owners

(19:40):
all shared a vision of restoration for Bodium. Under Fuller's ownership,
tower repair began as well as the restoration of the
main gate, but he only had it for twenty years
before he died, so they didn't get super far. In
eighteen forty nine, the castle and property were purchased by
George Cubitt, who wished to continue the restoration that Fuller
had begun, and Cuba actually had the site surveyed before

(20:03):
picking the work back up because he wanted to approach
things a bit more methodically. In nineteen seventeen, the Bodium
Castle was purchased by Lord Curzon, who was a British
statesman and served as Viceroy of India from eight to
nineteen o five. He had a general interest in the
restoration of historic buildings and he managed to get Bodiam Castle,

(20:24):
which he had tried to purchase from George Cuba after
Cuba passed and his son sold it. Yeah, Lord Curzon
could be his own episode and maybe one day will
It will be in parts interesting and terrifying and frustrating.
But Curzon invested in having the moat partially drained and
that revealed some of the old bridge structures of the castle.

(20:45):
He also had much of the overgrowth cleared it had
kind of been swallowed by plant life in many regards
um and he rebuilt and restored some of the crumbled ruins,
along with Scottish architect William Weir overseeing the project. Curzon
also had a cottage built on the ground separate from
the castle, for a caretaker to live in and for

(21:06):
a small museum to be installed. Lord Curzon donated the
castle to the National Trust in when he died, and
it has remained under that entities ownership in the almost
hundred years since. The restored castle eventually became a Grade
one listed building. That designation means that it's considered to
have historical significance and be of exceptional interest. During World

(21:30):
War Two, a pill box bunker was built on the
grounds at Bodium Castle as defense to guard against possible
German invasion, which of course, thankfully did not happen. Throughout
its time and under the care of the National Trust,
there have been various restoration projects for the castle and
the grounds. The entire moat was drained in nineteen seventy

(21:50):
when excavations were undertaken, and these excavations were necessitated in
part by some really treacherous conditions that were threatening to
take out some of the some of the walls surrounding
the moat, unsurprising given that this was the hundreds of
year old castle that had not been really maintained in
this way. The conditions were caused also by tree growth.

(22:11):
Careful excavation revealed that the wall was actually in better
shape than expected, and researchers were able to see and
record Mason's marks in the stones. We'll talk more about
the Mason's marks in just a second. In continuing examinations
of the land and its waterways through the nineteen eighties,
researchers looked at the water features of the landscape to

(22:32):
try to determine when various versions of them had been changed,
as well as which of them were actually naturally occurring,
and also together just any other additional details that they could.
One pond, known as the tilt Yard might be a
remodeled version of the original mill pond that Dalin Gridge
had installed. Other ponds on the land are believed to

(22:54):
have been used to dispose of waste that had accumulated
in the moat and was dredged out. Uh So, when
you think about the romantic ideas we have about castle
to over time, various marks and inscriptions have been observed
and cataloged around the castle, and some of these are

(23:14):
obviously pretty modern ish, believed to have been left there
between the eighteenth and early nineteen centuries. These are mostly
cases of people carving their names. You will find the
names Hoggins, James Brian, and Lady Tompkin at various places
in the castle, but other marks are much much older.
Some of them are simply part of the castle's construction.

(23:36):
There are symbols that are sometimes called bankers marks. The
mason's working on the castle would leave these in the
stones that they laid, because they were paid by the stone.
As each man left his mark, that let the master
mason easily count how many stones had been laid and
by whom, and pay everyone accordingly. But among the more

(23:58):
than eight hundred carving that have been cataloged in the
time the National Trust has managed the estate, some remained
a little bit more elusive in their meanings. In the
Trust hired a medieval graffiti expert. I love that that's
a job to make a thorough examination and analysis of
the inscriptions. That was Matt Champion who was brought onto

(24:19):
the project, which was part of a larger survey of
additional locations around the area. So that was done in
cooperation with the wind Chelsea Archaeological Society, the University of
Southampton and the Museum of London Archaeology Department, and there
were some surprising discoveries. First, Champion was able to identify

(24:40):
each of the mason's marks and make a pretty good
estimate of the size of the team that was employed
on the project. It appears that there were six bankers
masons langstone work for the things like the external walls,
and three fine mason's. Those are experts who did the
detail work that sometimes included things like carving. There's the
folks that were down the castle, which then makes it

(25:01):
even more amazing how quickly it went up. But the
real surprise we're the witch marks. Almost every single window
and entrance to the castle has some sort of mark
like this, and they generally look like a compass inside
a circle or sometimes a pentagram, and these are believed
to have been placed near entrances in order to keep

(25:22):
evil from entering the castle. Adding a level of complexity
here is the fact that some of these were made
during construction, but others clearly came later, although dating them
exactly is a little bit difficult. But since the French
army didn't invade, and it seems that Bodium has probably
avoided any violent attack, maybe they worked. Really though, while

(25:44):
the name witch marks sounds kind of thrilling, really these
are essentially prayers carved into the masonry, and they offer
historians a peak at the values of the people in
the fourteenth century and beyond and the words of Champion quote.
The collection of ritual protection marks that Bodium Castle is
not only significant for the site, but for the wider
field of study. Some were undoubtedly created during the construction process,

(26:08):
whilst others could only have been created subsequently, showing the
importance religion continued to play throughout the Middle Ages. Um.
One of the things I love about some of these
marks is that they are these like intricate carve designs
and the idea that the spirit would get stuck in there. Yes, yes,
it's a little bit. It hearkens back to the Ruguru right,

(26:31):
like make something just complex enough that the dangerous thing
will get wadded up in the details of one way
or another, okay, form a movie Buffs in the Crowd.
Here is the very silly reason that I knew about
this castle. It's exterior was used in the film Monty
Python and the Holy Grail. So that shot that you

(26:51):
see of the exterior of Swamp Castle. The fourth castle,
the one that survived, that is Bodium Castle. That one
stayed up. It did. It did, even though UH the
Air did not want to inherit it, but only wanted
to sing. Bodium Castle is open to visitors, although as

(27:13):
of this recording there are some limits in place because
of COVID restrictions. Outdoor spaces are currently available, but not
the indoor areas. There's a cafe on site that's offering
takeout snacks, and so if you're considering a visit, you
do need to book in advance, so check the availability
and the restrictions ahead of time. Do you have some
listener mail? I do? I do. This is another email

(27:38):
that we have gotten about color vision deficiency. We've gotten
some good ones we have. It's it's a little bit
interesting because it's one of those cases I feel like
UH in instances where we have an episode and it
generates a lot of listener feedback. It's usually one of
a few things, like one, it's a contentious issue with

(27:58):
a lot of people, how having different opinions, or maybe
they didn't like how we treated something, or they're just like,
thank goodness someone's talking about this, or often I feel
like we'll talk about something and there's a whole group
of people that's like I feel seen um and I
kind of feel like this is the scoop with the
color vision deficiency um our. Listener Dana wrote in she

(28:20):
self identifies this color blind in her subject line and writes, high,
Holly and Tracy, I love the podcast and I've been
listening for years. Your recent episode on John Dalton's color
vision was extremely fascinating to me as I am a
female with green due to an opia color blindness, and
often find it hard to describe to people what I see,
like John Dalton. I also didn't find this out until

(28:43):
later in life, as I was in my senior year
of high school. Despite needing glasses since I was ten
and multiple vision exams, the standard color vision testing at
the eye doctor is a very distinct red and green
e which I can easily see as you described from
your research, it is often, though not always, a decreased
ability to see the color in question, and not a

(29:03):
complete absence of the color. How I found out was
in calculus class. The textbook had an Ashara dot test,
and my peers were all talking about what they saw.
When I looked, I saw something completely different, which then
shocked all of us, and we had to stop class
for everyone to hold up every color they could find
to see if I saw the same as them. Had
it not been for Calculus, I don't know when I

(29:25):
would have ever found out. Since then, I now have
a son who also has the same color deficiency as
I do. We've even had his color vision tested with
that same dot test. Most people do not know that
I have this. My husband does, and it's often a
joke at our house and some of our close friends.
But I do not enjoy being in the spotlight of it,
and I don't like spending thirty plus minutes every time
I do share it explaining to people that yes, I

(29:46):
can see stoplights. So I don't tell people often, and
now when I do tell them, I'll just send them
to your podcast instead of explaining it all, and hopefully
they'll stop holding up every color of the six or
seven if you ask Dalton colored rainbow for me to
check for them. Ha ha ha. Thank you for all your
hard work and the research eating for the podcast. I
love this. It is interesting, right you. That's one of

(30:07):
those cases where I feel like there's a lesson here
of like, I love when people are curious, and I
have done this before, so I'm not. Um, I'm not
calling anybody out or trying to be critical of anyone.
When you find out someone is different from you and
you're super interested and you want to ask a cajillion questions,
but it's worth considering if that person has answered those

(30:27):
cajillion questions in their lives. Yeah. So, um, it's a lesson.
I always need to be reminded of that. It's sometimes
easier instead of going how do you see this? Or
how do you understand this? Or how does your culture
do this? You could go, hey, is there a good
resource you could point me to where I could learn
more about this? Unless someone really wants to share it all,

(30:49):
in which case it's cool. But always please be respectful
of people's time when trying to understand what is different
about their life from yours. Sure, yeah, yeah, my mom
used to have a thing program into her speech generating
device that would she could just hit one button and
it would explain the whole thing. That is smart because
I'm sure there's been a kigelion of those. Um. Yeah,

(31:14):
and usually I mean again, I don't want to make
anybody feel bad. That usually comes from a very good
place of wanting to like understand and connect, but it
can be a bit labor intensive for the person who
has to do the work of explaining it to everyone
who doesn't understand. Um. So thank you, thank you, thank
you for Danta for writing us, because it offered that
that moment both to remind myself and anyone else who

(31:37):
cares to to think about it in those terms that
it's always good to give people the option to point
you towards a resource or just tell you to go
to the library. Um, when libraries are a thing, go
to your online library, search it. See if your library
has a really handy no contact pickup, which mind does
and it's great. Yeah. Um, So thank you, thank you,

(32:00):
thank you. If you would like to write to us,
you can do that at History Podcast at iHeart radio
dot com. You can also find us on social media
as missed in History and if you want to subscribe
to the podcast and you haven't gotten around to that yet,
also no criticism there, but it's super easy if you'd
like to, you can do that on the I heart
Radio app, at Apple Podcasts, or wherever it is you listen.

(32:24):
Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of
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