December 24, 2008 • 13 mins
Agent Orange was a potent herbicide and defoliant used across Vietnam during the Vietnam War. Listen to this podcast from HowStuffWorks to learn about Agent Orange and its atrocious legacy.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm editor Candice Gibson, joined by staff writer Jane Grass.
Jane because sometimes when you think about war or historical wars,
I can seem sort of romantic, and not love romantic,
(00:22):
but the idea of you know, like the romances of history.
Thinking back to um like the Revolutionary War, when you
envisioned the tri cornered hats in the red coat, glorious. Yeah,
it just it feels kind of good. Or when you
think about the Alamo and you know there was dust
everywhere and people wearing moccasins and leather and there was
just such bravery. Just I don't know, it paints an
(00:45):
interesting and vivid picture in your mind. Or even when
you see paintings and history bookton museums, like you said,
I think glory is it's the perfect word. But when
you think about a war like Vietnam and you look
at the backdrop, I mean, aside from the associate of
cultural implications of the war, even the backdrop of the
land is entirely different. You don't see the snow covered
(01:08):
landscapes you you you know, don't see the I don't
know the cacti of the Texan desert. I know what
would have been president the Alamo, But Vietnam was essentially
deforested throughout the war, and so when you look at it,
it's just black death on the landscape. Yeah, it's it's
pretty startling to see. And like, yeah, as you mentioned,
if you've ever seen a Vietnam war movie, that is
(01:29):
one thing that you know, the image that comes to
your mind is a very jungle e um uh situation
right there where obviously it's it's a scary situation to
be fighting in a in a war, in a jungle
situation where the people you're fighting against are very familiar
with it and you're not. They can your enemy can
use it against you. And that's why the Americans in
Vietnam were very preoccupied with with clearing the area of jungle.
(01:52):
And one of the most effective ways that they did
that was the use of agent Orange. That's right, and
this was a herbicide. Um. The basically they dumped it
on about ten percent of Vietnam and a governed of
a lot of jungle. It did it did its job,
um about eleven million gallons. I think between nineteen sixty
five and nineteen seventy, and it was actually one of
(02:12):
a class of her. Besides they call it like so
called rainbow um her. Besides the different colors and all
to do with the stripe that was on the box,
nothing with the actual substance. But there was actually others
like pink and purple were actually more dangerous than agent orange,
but they weren't used as quite as much, right, And
we should note that when it was developed the scientists
(02:34):
he developed at Dr Arthur Galston. He was a botanist
and he essentially started researching growth hormones and um. He
had no idea that his discoveries were going to be
interpreted and used like this, And he actually sad, after
all of a sudden done. Nothing that you do in
science is guaranteed to result in benefits for mankind. Any discovery,
(02:57):
I believe is morally neutral, and it can be earned
either too constructive or destructive ends. That's not the fault
of science. That's interesting, And you know he must have
felt incredible guilt. And here he was being very rational
and illogical about it. But to think that you developed
something that was repurposed and used in this way, and
we're going to go on to tell you guys about
(03:19):
the horrible health effects that it caused, but just to
start with, you know, I think we should paint some
background about what it actually did to the jungle, and
we should mention that the main ingredient and Agent Orange
was dioxin and the effect that it had on the
plants was that it caused the leaves to fall off
and die first, and then the roots of the plants
(03:39):
are killed as well, and the vegetation just turns black
and it smells. And the way it does this is
it has too much growth regulation within the chemical and
the plant tissue grow so fast that the rest of
the plant just can't keep up die. Yeah. Yeah, it's
kind of ironic about it because Golson's work was was
particularly aimed towards help plants grow more and speedily. And
(04:03):
um So, in small amounts, these sort of substitute substances
actually do um just that they help encourage plant growth.
But in large substances, the tissue and everything actually grows
much too quickly and it and it dies very quickly
as a result. And that's what's so strange about the
use of agent orange. And this is why it was
called an eco side and that means that it caused
(04:24):
the death of wildlife and the environment, and it posed
to health risk to people. Was that, like you were saying, Jane,
and small doses diox and can actually decrease cancer. Yeah,
that really shocked me. Yeah, but in large doses quite
the opposite of quite the opposite. And I'll give you
all a very very visual example and a contemporary wanted that.
Um are you familiar with Victory Schenko? I don't think
(04:46):
i am. He was Ukrainian politician or just a couple
of years ago, was a victim of docs and poisoning.
And if you look at pictures of him, and if
you haven't seen these pictures, I would encourage you to
go look them up on the end as soon as possible.
And that word was internet. On the way my southern
accent gets sometimes you can see instantly he was, you know,
sort of a middle aged man, but handsome, you know, chiseled, jaw,
(05:08):
striking features, very youthful. And after the poisoning, his skin
has this greenish tent to it, and he's got wrinkles
and spots and it's just all crumbled up. It's just
pitiful to look at. But the thing about diox and
is that it will eventually work its way out of
your system. It's right, and it's actually I think I
remember reading that everyone has a little bit of dios
(05:29):
and in them, so that that kind of makes sense.
And scientists don't know how long it takes to completely
work out of you, but it does dissipate over time.
It's effects to do, and so if you look at
pictures of you shouldn't go today, it's not quite as
severe as right after the attacks. But the thing about
diox and that makes it so scary is that we
don't know that much about its effects and how long
(05:50):
it stays in the body. We do know that it
is um fat soluble, so it stays in your body
when you eat crops that have been affected by it,
or animals that have gray based on the crops that
have been affected by it, and it just accumulates and
your fat tissue. That's right. And one thing that helps
it spread so much um is the fact that seats
into the ground that eventually gets in the water sources,
and like obviously it spreads a way beyond control. And
(06:13):
so as we mentioned during the Vietnam war. Jane said
it was um. It was used in about ten percent
of the country. It was sprayed from aircraft, and not
only there, but also on the hotelm and trail and
Allows and Cambodia that the viet Cong used as a
supply route. And so not just Vietnamese soldiers, but Vietnamese
civilians fell prey to your too, as well as American soldiers.
(06:36):
That's true, and UM. One of the problems with this,
at least one source, the US Veteran Dispatch, believes that
the military didn't dilute the herbicides that used enough. The
manufacturer UM suggests that they should have diluted it UM
six twenty five times more than they did. Yeah, so
that obviously didn't help the problem. So today there's some
Vietnamese who have ten times more diox and and their
(06:57):
blood than what's normal. And when big doses, the health
problems that it can cause primarily affect the endocrine, immune,
and nervous systems, and from here docks and causes things
like miscarriages and cancer, birth effects, even type two diabetes
and nerve disorders. Yeah, it's it's pretty surprising, and obviously
(07:17):
so many of the veterans were exposed to this. That
now the actually as literally as the Veterans Administration actually
UM set up a program specifically for this problem, helping
helping veterans deal with the health effects that came from
agent orange. And but now they even make the presumption
of all veterans being exposed to this. And we were saying,
(07:38):
we're not sure how long it takes for docks and
and the other chemicals and agent orange to finally leave
someone's body, but we do know that veterans who came
home and gave birth to children saw the same health
problems that they were having or lesser greater degrees and
their offspring. That's right, and that was particularly a problem
or at least a heart wrenching story UM about Elmo
(08:00):
are Zomalt jr. Uh. He was renowned in the Navy
for ending helping to end raised gender discrimination the Navy.
And actually when he was fighting in the Vietnam War,
he uh he was responsible for for dumping some agent
orange on this area called the Makong Delta. And what
he wanted to do was was helped to expose the
snipers that were killing a lot of Americans there. But
(08:21):
as it happened. His son, Elma third, was actually commanding
a boat in that area and he was exposed to
the agent orange. That was that his father was responsible
for dumping. UM. So when the war ended, Elma the
third came home and UH he had a child, his son,
Elmo the fourth, and UH he was actually uh showed
(08:42):
UM he suffers from a significant learning disability as a result.
They think of this agent orange exposure and UH and
later Elmo the third, the son of of of Zamat Junior,
actually died of cancer and they think that was a
result of the agent orange exposure as well. But before
he died, father and son wrote a book about their
experiences in Vietnam. And the father was an admiral and
(09:04):
his son was of a lesser rank. But together they
came up with a unified opinion that while agent orange
did cause destruction, and yes, in fact, it was responsible
for the third and the fourth's health problems, it also
saved many lives of American soldiers in the war because
it did cut down on the foliage, and it did
expose snipers, and it did expose you know, UM troops
(09:26):
station along the supply roads. And UH. While the Admiral
later on became an advocate for helping people get compensation
for agent orange prone injuries or diseases and things like that.
You know, he pointed out what was on everyone's mind,
and that was that this was such a sticky situation.
You know, did we do we condone the use of
(09:47):
agent orange or do we allowed it and say it
was a necessary war casualty for the enemy? Do we
blame the government? Should we get reparations for it? And
this has actually been a big issue in court. Back
in four there was a class action lawsuit brought against
seven companies who were disseminators of agent orange, and they
essentially were charged with not giving full disclosure to the
(10:11):
government about what was in this chemical, how it should
be used, and the government, I think maybe because of this,
wasn't as careful as it should have been when using
it against civilians in Vietnam. You know, there was no
distinction given to using in land where there were no
civilians versus where they were Vietcong soldiers, and that's what
made it's so messy. But after this lawsuit, about one
(10:34):
hundred eighty million was allocated for two hundred people and
the finals, the final settlement came to two hundred forty
million after it had compounded interest, and the chemical companies
continued to be uh, targets of plaintiffs who came against them.
I shouldn't really use the word target, because that's not fair.
But they continued to have plaintiffs come to them and
(10:56):
say we need compensation, that our health issues now. But
they kept saying, well, you know, too much time has
passed for your claims, and you know, the government told
us to make these chemicals, and we're not really sure
what agent orange is caused and what health problems run
in your family. Yeah, what brings up the question like, well,
who else can we blame? I mean, maybe the military
is to blame and we should go to the U. S.
(11:17):
Government itself. And that actually has been a tough thing
to accomplish because the government has been able to hide
behind this idea of sovereign immunity, which is the idea
that the government cannot be sued, and the Supreme Court
has has held it up in many situations, and so
it's made it very difficult for suffers of agent orange
to get recompense. Right, and so even if you can't
(11:39):
do the government, you can still lobby against the government
to go and clean up the mass from agent Orange's
still causing trouble and the soil today, and it's very
expensive to clean up as well is and there are
plenty of humanitarian and activist groups out there who were saying,
what you cleaned up all these land mines, now you
need to get back in there and clean out the
effects from agent orange as well. It's a good point.
(12:00):
So we're not really sure what's going to come of this.
I mean, we don't really know what sort of chemicals
are being used in wars today that are going to
continue to have lasting effects on generations. To comment's just,
you know, it's one of those things about war, and
it's another scary thing about science and what's developed a
theory in a lab. When it's actually put into practice
(12:20):
we can know the consequences. It's like a Pandora's box,
something you don't really know. What's in a beaker is
much different from what's being sprayed from an aircraft over Vietnam.
And we should mention too that agent orange was also
used again in the Korean War, not by the US
but by Korea, so that we have melodies and not
war as well. That's true. So you want to learn
(12:41):
more about Agent Orange and the Vietnam War and even
the scientific method, be sure to check out how stuff
works dot com for more on this and thousands of
other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com Let
us know what should think. Send an email to podcast
and how Stuff We're that car
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm editor Candice Gibson, joined by staff writer Jane Grass.
Jane because sometimes when you think about war or historical wars,
I can seem sort of romantic, and not love romantic,
(00:22):
but the idea of you know, like the romances of history.
Thinking back to um like the Revolutionary War, when you
envisioned the tri cornered hats in the red coat, glorious. Yeah,
it just it feels kind of good. Or when you
think about the Alamo and you know there was dust
everywhere and people wearing moccasins and leather and there was
just such bravery. Just I don't know, it paints an
(00:45):
interesting and vivid picture in your mind. Or even when
you see paintings and history bookton museums, like you said,
I think glory is it's the perfect word. But when
you think about a war like Vietnam and you look
at the backdrop, I mean, aside from the associate of
cultural implications of the war, even the backdrop of the
land is entirely different. You don't see the snow covered
(01:08):
landscapes you you you know, don't see the I don't
know the cacti of the Texan desert. I know what
would have been president the Alamo, But Vietnam was essentially
deforested throughout the war, and so when you look at it,
it's just black death on the landscape. Yeah, it's it's
pretty startling to see. And like, yeah, as you mentioned,
if you've ever seen a Vietnam war movie, that is
(01:29):
one thing that you know, the image that comes to
your mind is a very jungle e um uh situation
right there where obviously it's it's a scary situation to
be fighting in a in a war, in a jungle
situation where the people you're fighting against are very familiar
with it and you're not. They can your enemy can
use it against you. And that's why the Americans in
Vietnam were very preoccupied with with clearing the area of jungle.
(01:52):
And one of the most effective ways that they did
that was the use of agent Orange. That's right, and
this was a herbicide. Um. The basically they dumped it
on about ten percent of Vietnam and a governed of
a lot of jungle. It did it did its job,
um about eleven million gallons. I think between nineteen sixty
five and nineteen seventy, and it was actually one of
(02:12):
a class of her. Besides they call it like so
called rainbow um her. Besides the different colors and all
to do with the stripe that was on the box,
nothing with the actual substance. But there was actually others
like pink and purple were actually more dangerous than agent orange,
but they weren't used as quite as much, right, And
we should note that when it was developed the scientists
(02:34):
he developed at Dr Arthur Galston. He was a botanist
and he essentially started researching growth hormones and um. He
had no idea that his discoveries were going to be
interpreted and used like this, And he actually sad, after
all of a sudden done. Nothing that you do in
science is guaranteed to result in benefits for mankind. Any discovery,
(02:57):
I believe is morally neutral, and it can be earned
either too constructive or destructive ends. That's not the fault
of science. That's interesting, And you know he must have
felt incredible guilt. And here he was being very rational
and illogical about it. But to think that you developed
something that was repurposed and used in this way, and
we're going to go on to tell you guys about
(03:19):
the horrible health effects that it caused, but just to
start with, you know, I think we should paint some
background about what it actually did to the jungle, and
we should mention that the main ingredient and Agent Orange
was dioxin and the effect that it had on the
plants was that it caused the leaves to fall off
and die first, and then the roots of the plants
(03:39):
are killed as well, and the vegetation just turns black
and it smells. And the way it does this is
it has too much growth regulation within the chemical and
the plant tissue grow so fast that the rest of
the plant just can't keep up die. Yeah. Yeah, it's
kind of ironic about it because Golson's work was was
particularly aimed towards help plants grow more and speedily. And
(04:03):
um So, in small amounts, these sort of substitute substances
actually do um just that they help encourage plant growth.
But in large substances, the tissue and everything actually grows
much too quickly and it and it dies very quickly
as a result. And that's what's so strange about the
use of agent orange. And this is why it was
called an eco side and that means that it caused
(04:24):
the death of wildlife and the environment, and it posed
to health risk to people. Was that, like you were saying, Jane,
and small doses diox and can actually decrease cancer. Yeah,
that really shocked me. Yeah, but in large doses quite
the opposite of quite the opposite. And I'll give you
all a very very visual example and a contemporary wanted that.
Um are you familiar with Victory Schenko? I don't think
(04:46):
i am. He was Ukrainian politician or just a couple
of years ago, was a victim of docs and poisoning.
And if you look at pictures of him, and if
you haven't seen these pictures, I would encourage you to
go look them up on the end as soon as possible.
And that word was internet. On the way my southern
accent gets sometimes you can see instantly he was, you know,
sort of a middle aged man, but handsome, you know, chiseled, jaw,
(05:08):
striking features, very youthful. And after the poisoning, his skin
has this greenish tent to it, and he's got wrinkles
and spots and it's just all crumbled up. It's just
pitiful to look at. But the thing about diox and
is that it will eventually work its way out of
your system. It's right, and it's actually I think I
remember reading that everyone has a little bit of dios
(05:29):
and in them, so that that kind of makes sense.
And scientists don't know how long it takes to completely
work out of you, but it does dissipate over time.
It's effects to do, and so if you look at
pictures of you shouldn't go today, it's not quite as
severe as right after the attacks. But the thing about
diox and that makes it so scary is that we
don't know that much about its effects and how long
(05:50):
it stays in the body. We do know that it
is um fat soluble, so it stays in your body
when you eat crops that have been affected by it,
or animals that have gray based on the crops that
have been affected by it, and it just accumulates and
your fat tissue. That's right. And one thing that helps
it spread so much um is the fact that seats
into the ground that eventually gets in the water sources,
and like obviously it spreads a way beyond control. And
(06:13):
so as we mentioned during the Vietnam war. Jane said
it was um. It was used in about ten percent
of the country. It was sprayed from aircraft, and not
only there, but also on the hotelm and trail and
Allows and Cambodia that the viet Cong used as a
supply route. And so not just Vietnamese soldiers, but Vietnamese
civilians fell prey to your too, as well as American soldiers.
(06:36):
That's true, and UM. One of the problems with this,
at least one source, the US Veteran Dispatch, believes that
the military didn't dilute the herbicides that used enough. The
manufacturer UM suggests that they should have diluted it UM
six twenty five times more than they did. Yeah, so
that obviously didn't help the problem. So today there's some
Vietnamese who have ten times more diox and and their
(06:57):
blood than what's normal. And when big doses, the health
problems that it can cause primarily affect the endocrine, immune,
and nervous systems, and from here docks and causes things
like miscarriages and cancer, birth effects, even type two diabetes
and nerve disorders. Yeah, it's it's pretty surprising, and obviously
(07:17):
so many of the veterans were exposed to this. That
now the actually as literally as the Veterans Administration actually
UM set up a program specifically for this problem, helping
helping veterans deal with the health effects that came from
agent orange. And but now they even make the presumption
of all veterans being exposed to this. And we were saying,
(07:38):
we're not sure how long it takes for docks and
and the other chemicals and agent orange to finally leave
someone's body, but we do know that veterans who came
home and gave birth to children saw the same health
problems that they were having or lesser greater degrees and
their offspring. That's right, and that was particularly a problem
or at least a heart wrenching story UM about Elmo
(08:00):
are Zomalt jr. Uh. He was renowned in the Navy
for ending helping to end raised gender discrimination the Navy.
And actually when he was fighting in the Vietnam War,
he uh he was responsible for for dumping some agent
orange on this area called the Makong Delta. And what
he wanted to do was was helped to expose the
snipers that were killing a lot of Americans there. But
(08:21):
as it happened. His son, Elma third, was actually commanding
a boat in that area and he was exposed to
the agent orange. That was that his father was responsible
for dumping. UM. So when the war ended, Elma the
third came home and UH he had a child, his son,
Elmo the fourth, and UH he was actually uh showed
(08:42):
UM he suffers from a significant learning disability as a result.
They think of this agent orange exposure and UH and
later Elmo the third, the son of of of Zamat Junior,
actually died of cancer and they think that was a
result of the agent orange exposure as well. But before
he died, father and son wrote a book about their
experiences in Vietnam. And the father was an admiral and
(09:04):
his son was of a lesser rank. But together they
came up with a unified opinion that while agent orange
did cause destruction, and yes, in fact, it was responsible
for the third and the fourth's health problems, it also
saved many lives of American soldiers in the war because
it did cut down on the foliage, and it did
expose snipers, and it did expose you know, UM troops
(09:26):
station along the supply roads. And UH. While the Admiral
later on became an advocate for helping people get compensation
for agent orange prone injuries or diseases and things like that.
You know, he pointed out what was on everyone's mind,
and that was that this was such a sticky situation.
You know, did we do we condone the use of
(09:47):
agent orange or do we allowed it and say it
was a necessary war casualty for the enemy? Do we
blame the government? Should we get reparations for it? And
this has actually been a big issue in court. Back
in four there was a class action lawsuit brought against
seven companies who were disseminators of agent orange, and they
essentially were charged with not giving full disclosure to the
(10:11):
government about what was in this chemical, how it should
be used, and the government, I think maybe because of this,
wasn't as careful as it should have been when using
it against civilians in Vietnam. You know, there was no
distinction given to using in land where there were no
civilians versus where they were Vietcong soldiers, and that's what
made it's so messy. But after this lawsuit, about one
(10:34):
hundred eighty million was allocated for two hundred people and
the finals, the final settlement came to two hundred forty
million after it had compounded interest, and the chemical companies
continued to be uh, targets of plaintiffs who came against them.
I shouldn't really use the word target, because that's not fair.
But they continued to have plaintiffs come to them and
(10:56):
say we need compensation, that our health issues now. But
they kept saying, well, you know, too much time has
passed for your claims, and you know, the government told
us to make these chemicals, and we're not really sure
what agent orange is caused and what health problems run
in your family. Yeah, what brings up the question like, well,
who else can we blame? I mean, maybe the military
is to blame and we should go to the U. S.
(11:17):
Government itself. And that actually has been a tough thing
to accomplish because the government has been able to hide
behind this idea of sovereign immunity, which is the idea
that the government cannot be sued, and the Supreme Court
has has held it up in many situations, and so
it's made it very difficult for suffers of agent orange
to get recompense. Right, and so even if you can't
(11:39):
do the government, you can still lobby against the government
to go and clean up the mass from agent Orange's
still causing trouble and the soil today, and it's very
expensive to clean up as well is and there are
plenty of humanitarian and activist groups out there who were saying,
what you cleaned up all these land mines, now you
need to get back in there and clean out the
effects from agent orange as well. It's a good point.
(12:00):
So we're not really sure what's going to come of this.
I mean, we don't really know what sort of chemicals
are being used in wars today that are going to
continue to have lasting effects on generations. To comment's just,
you know, it's one of those things about war, and
it's another scary thing about science and what's developed a
theory in a lab. When it's actually put into practice
(12:20):
we can know the consequences. It's like a Pandora's box,
something you don't really know. What's in a beaker is
much different from what's being sprayed from an aircraft over Vietnam.
And we should mention too that agent orange was also
used again in the Korean War, not by the US
but by Korea, so that we have melodies and not
war as well. That's true. So you want to learn
(12:41):
more about Agent Orange and the Vietnam War and even
the scientific method, be sure to check out how stuff
works dot com for more on this and thousands of
other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com Let
us know what should think. Send an email to podcast
and how Stuff We're that car
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