SYMHC Classics: Max von Pettenkofer

This 2020 episode talks about how Pettenkofer's ideas about cholera's spread weren’t exactly right, but they still had really beneficial impacts on the way we live.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Happy Saturday. After this week's name drop of Max Bond Petkolfer,
Today's Saturday Classic is our episode on him. This originally
came out March twenty third, twenty twenty, and you can
tell that at that time, like a lot of people,
based on the information we were getting, we didn't think
the pandemic was gonna last all that long. So that's

(00:23):
a funny surprise. Guess if you're thinking, oh you sweet
summer children, so is everyone. We don't need to be
reminded of that, but enjoy this episode. Welcome to Stuff
You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio. Hello,

(00:48):
and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Frye and I'm
Tracy V. Wilson. Hey, as we record this, we're in
the middle of a pandemic. We sure are. This is
the first time that we have recorded the podcast with
everyone involved in their houses. Yeah, we are entirely remote
this go around. This is our first of those. As
Tracy just said, so Tracy is usually at home, but

(01:11):
today I am also at home, and Casey are amazing
super producer, also at home. So fingers crossed that our
maiden voyage of doing it this way works out fine,
We did a test, it worked out fine. But yeah,
all of this that's going on, all of these changes
to our day to day lives, however temporary they may be,

(01:32):
and the virus that has caused all of this got
me to thinking about contagion and germ theory and the
various points in history where people have been trying to
figure out the science of disease. And as I kind
of snorfled around on the Internet looking for things related
to that, it led me to MAXI on pet and Kofer.

(01:52):
And one of the things that I found in my
research for this was a lecture by Yale professor Frank Snowden.
It's part of their OW and Yale courses, and he
described Petinkopher as quote the most sophisticated and scientifically robust
of those we might call wrong. So Pettenkofer's ideas about

(02:12):
specifically how cholera but also other diseases spread were not
exactly right. But even though he was kind of on
the wrong track, his work still had some really beneficial
impacts on the way that we live. And he also
had a lot of twists and turns in his early life,
and I'm hoping that those which are pretty entertaining. Plus,

(02:34):
talking about these concepts in a way that's a little
bit removed from what we are all currently living through
will offer a way to consider just how far we've
come in figuring out epidemiology. We do need to offer
a quick heads up. There is a brief mention of
suicide in this episode. I'll add an additional heads up
just because I was eating my breakfast when I got
to this part of the outline toward the end of

(02:55):
the episode. There's a little gross medical bit that you know,
it'll become clearer when we get closer to it. Yeah,
no part of you will doubt was that it. Eh. So.
Max von Pettenkoffer was born at home on December third,
eighteen eighteen, in Liechtenheim, Bavaria, near the Danube River. His
father wasn't exactly a farmer. He worked the land, but

(03:19):
really only to the point of subsistence. It was not
a vocation really on his part. Yeah, they were very poor.
His family was Catholic and they were obviously of extremely
modest means. Max was fifth in the birth order. He
had a total of seven siblings, so that is a
very busy and crowded house. It made four more people
than could realistically fit in their living situation. Max, as

(03:42):
a consequence, did not have a bedroom of his own.
He actually betted down each night in the hallway, which
kind of a landing at the top of the stairs
that had a little crooked to the side of it,
and that is where he slept. Those early years of
Max's life, unsurprisingly, were not particularly happy. The family's poverty
took its whole as the pet and Coverers just never
had enough to make ends meet. When Max was nine,

(04:05):
his fortunes changed though. He was sent to Munich to
live with an uncle, doctor Franz ex Petankofer. Franz was
a successful apothecary. He was in a way better financial
position than Max's parents were, so that constant state of
need was no longer part of Max's life. After he
moved to Munich, there was just a whole new future

(04:25):
of possibilities opened up for him, and this is a
case where he definitely explored a lot of them. First off,
he started a formal education, so he attended grammar school
and then he went on to high school and he
graduated in eighteen thirty seven. When he was eighteen. He
graduated with honors, and he initially seemed to be leaning
towards literary scholarship. He also wrote poetry, which was good

(04:48):
enough to be published in a collection. He shifted his
focus after he enrolled in college at the University of Munich.
The idea on his uncle's part was that Max could
study pharmacy and kem and then eventually take over the apothecary,
and Max started his higher education with that as the plan.
But there was also a problem, which was it turned
out that he hated those courses. He also dabbled with

(05:12):
the idea of law, maybe even theology. Those eventually turned
out not to hold his interest either. Oh, if you've
ever taken a class you hated, it's excruciating. So to
have a bunch of them I feel for him so naturally,
with none of these other ideas about his future really
being anything that was working for him, he decided to

(05:33):
become an actor, a perfectly normal path for a scientist.
He remembered acting in school plays and loving it, so
that seemed to him like a perfectly good option that
he hadn't explored yet. As you may imagine, none of
this went over particularly well with his uncle. Their relationship
as a consequence did on a serious note, become really

(05:54):
really tense, and eventually there was a physical altercation where
Franz hit his nephew, and Max at that point disassociated
himself from his uncle, which also meant that he was
separating himself from his uncle's financial support. His whole theater
thing actually seemed like it might play out for a
little while. In eighteen forty, he was appearing on stage

(06:15):
as Max Tenkoff in various productions. He was handsome and smart,
and his time studying literature in his younger years really
served him well. But depending on which biographical account you read,
it seems like his reviews might have been pretty mixed,
and it became apparent that this was not going to
be a way for Max to support himself. Yeah, some
accounts say that he got pretty consistently not even panned.

(06:41):
It wasn't even that it was like people are like,
he's fine. Others say he did quite well. So we
don't really know, but clearly it was not a career
that was going to work out. But he did make
an important connection during this time as an actor. He
met a young woman named Helene Pattenkofer. They have the
same name because she was he was a cousin, and
they fell in love. The two of them married, and

(07:03):
it was actually this marriage that ended up reconnecting Max
to his uncle Franz, and Helene helped encourage the two
men to reconcile. In eighteen forty one, Max moved back
to Munich with his new wife and with his uncle's support,
started to study medicine. Just a year after that, he
was publishing articles on chemistry, specifically on the detection and

(07:24):
isolation of arsenic In March of eighteen forty three, he
was granted an apothecary degree, and then, after completing his
medical thesis on South American plants that were believed to
have curative properties, he received the degree of Doctor of Medicine,
Surgery and Obstetrics. Yeah, I'm not one hundred percent clear
on why this whole science thing worked for him this round,

(07:47):
unless he was really just trying to step up and
find a vocation in which he could support not only
himself but his new wife. He was very dedicated to Helene,
But this time around it was like his curiosity kind
of worked out and he got pretty into his medical career.
Pettenkofer's medical education had always focused primarily on chemistry, and

(08:09):
his first position after completing his education was working in
a lab in Wurzburg researching urine and isolating various substances
in it. In this work, he showed that hypperic acid
and sulfocyanic acid were present in urine, and he also
noted a component that was high in nitrogen, although he
didn't specifically identify it. Later chemists would identify that as

(08:31):
creatine and creatinine. And he also developed a way to
test urine for bile salt, and that test has actually
continued to be used right up to the modern day.
He then moved on to the University of Geisen in
eighteen forty four to continue his work as a chemist,
but after working under mentor Eustace von Liebig for a
while there, it was apparent that he wasn't going to

(08:53):
be offered a professorship, which is something he had hoped for.
There just were not any open positions. Yeah, it wasn't
an issue of him not doing good work, because though
it did not lead to a full time job, his
work with Libig was quite fruitful. He developed a copper
amalgam for dentists to use as a filling for teeth.
He also developed a way, along with Libig, to prepare

(09:15):
meat extract as a soup base that actually led to
a company being started, and his interest and his skill
in chemistry really suited industrial chemistry projects quite well, so
he shifted away from medicine for a while. He was
still using his chemistry knowledge on the job that he
landed in, but it was very different from what he'd
been doing before. He worked in a mint until eighteen

(09:37):
forty seven, and in his time there it was his
job to refine and improve the minting of coins so
the most valuable metals used in their production could be
stretched as far as possible. One of the other things
that he worked on at this time in his life
was developing a way to save paintings from mildew that
formed as their varnish broke down. You know, I fell
in love with him for this. He figured out a

(10:00):
way to really carefully apply alcohol vapor to the surfaces
of paintings and in doing so reactivate the varnish so
that it would kind of reseal the painting and protect
its surface from molden mildew. Pettenkofer had been made an
associate in the Academy of Sciences in eighteen forty six,
and in eighteen forty seven he was finally offered a

(10:20):
professorship at the University of Munich. He taught medical chemistry there.
This was a newly created position. He was paid a
small yearly salary plus two measures of wheat and seven
measures of rye. He had a research space at his disposal,
and his lectures covered topics including public health, sanitation, diet,
physical chemistry, and hygiene. Yeah, his interest in all of

(10:44):
those really really continues throughout his life, and as we'll see,
it becomes very important. Three years into this new position,
Petankofer's responsibilities grew because his uncle Franz died in eighteen
fifty and as a consequence, Petinkofer inherited Franz's position as
court apothecary, So he was kind of advising the government

(11:04):
on matters of chemistry. And this appointment included the residence
that his uncle had lived in, in which Max had
lived in as a child, so he got a house
out of the deal, and he also got an additional
salary for the apothecary position. So things are going quite well.
We are about to get into the work that Pettenkoefer
did while trying to understand the spread of cholera. But

(11:26):
first we will pause for a quick sponsor break. Starting
in the eighteen fifties, cholera became the focus of much
of Pettenkofer's work. In eighteen fifty five, his fortunes continued

(11:47):
to expand and his standing in the scientific community grew
as well, and he was able to move his lab
into the newly built Institute of Physiology, where he had
more space to work. And this was also the year
that he published a really important work, Investigations and Observations
on the Method and Spread of Cholera. During this time,
one of the important concepts that he wrote about was

(12:08):
the idea of a healthy carrier. While he didn't agree
with the contagion theories at the time, and we're going
to get into that in a moment, he did think
that there could be people who showed no sign of
illness whatsoever and yet helped spread certain elements of disease.
Max von Pettenkofer started sharing his idea that cholera was
linked to a microorganism, but he was also adamant that

(12:30):
whatever that microorganism was wasn't enough to make someone sick
by itself. He thought a series of conditions had to
be met to cause an epidemic. There had to be
the microorganism, specific local conditions, seasonal conditions, and individual susceptibility.
He really didn't believe in the developing ideas that would
eventually lead Louis Pasteur and Robert Koch to develop germ theory. Yeah,

(12:54):
germ theory had been kind of developing over time, but
they really solidified it in the eighteen hundred Pettentkofher's idea
was represented by the simple mathematical equation of X plus
y equals z, and in this model, the outcome Z
was cholera. The variable X was the presence of a microorganism, which,

(13:14):
again on its own, he believed to be harmless, and
the y variable represented the local conditions that were contributing
factors that would enable that microorganism to actually become infectious.
He thought that general uncleanliness offered nutrients for that X
microorganism to thrive, and that water and warm temperatures and
porous soil were also important contributors. The microorganism needed to

(13:38):
ferment basically kind of the way a plant germinates and
then building on miasma theory, it would release infectious elements
into the air, and this idea of petent coophers came
to be known kind of colloquially as the groundwater theory.
It's also sometimes called localization theory. The theory was an
opposition to the work of British physician John Snow, who

(13:59):
we have an episode on in the archive. Snow believed
that whatever was causing cholera was something that was ingested
and was not miasmatic. In eighteen forty nine, Snow had
written an essay entitled on the Mode and Communication of
Cholera outlining this idea, and in eighteen fifty four it
seemed like he had proven it when he identified a

(14:21):
water pump in London's Broad Street that seemed to be
the source of multiple people's infections. That's a very short
version of his story. Paton Kofer was pretty adamant that
Snow was oversimplifying things. He acknowledged that John Snow had
clearly identified some factor in this whole process in the water,
and he actually wrote that no one in his right

(14:42):
mind could dismiss that finding. But what exactly was it
about the water that caused illness? He felt as though
it just could not possibly be a water borne pathogen.
By the way, that word was not even in the
vernacular at that time. It wasn't coined until later. But
he thought that anything that would have been in the
water by the time it got to a human would

(15:03):
have been far too diluted to actually be dangerous. That
big gap in understanding really drove Pettenkofer's work for the
rest of his life. He wrote paper after paper over
the next four decades, reiterating and refining his ideas. This
stoked the fires of a long debate in the medical
and scientific communities between the contagionists, who thought that snow

(15:26):
had identified the problem, and the anti contagionists, who thought
there were far more factors involved than simply passing some
sort of germ from person to person. And though cholera
was a concentration of his work, Penankofer continued to develop
theories and experiments in other fields. This is one of
those things where you don't realize how much he worked

(15:48):
on until you really dig in, because most of the
biographies of the articles you find about him are just
about his anti contagonism and cholera. But in eighteen sixty one,
he developed the first breath analysis apparatus. It was a
chamber in which a subject's exhalation could be analyzed to
determine how the body was consuming and using fats and carbohydrates,

(16:10):
forming an important foundation of metabolic research. He was then
able to use that data that he gathered to develop
some of the earliest calculations of caloric needs that a
person may require in various living conditions. In eighteen sixty four,
he became rector of the University of Munich. His influence
and his work in hygiene led King Ludwig the Second

(16:32):
of Bavaria to believe that hygiene research should be part
of all of Bavaria's higher learning institutions. The king ensured
that Bavaria's three universities all had chairs of hygiene. Pet
and Koefer filled that role at the University of Munich.
Once these positions were established, hygiene became a required course
in all their medical curriculums. And we're going to talk

(16:54):
more about some of his work in hygiene as we
go along. In eighteen sixty five, petentco for, frustrated at
the lack of journals that were publishing studies of hygiene,
just formed his own zitchrichtfer Biology, which is Journal of Biology,
was the result. In eighteen seventy two, he was offered
a very lucrative position. The University of Vienna was building

(17:18):
a new hygiene institute. They asked him to run it.
This was an enticing offer, but Pettenkofer really preferred to
stay in Bavaria. So he used this offer to his
advantage and told the University of Munich that Vienna really
wanted him so that he would consider staying only if
he had an institute of hygiene there in Munich. The

(17:40):
university agreed to build him one, which took the next
seven years, but it did get done and Pettenkofer stayed.
Ran this hygienic institute at the University of Munich once
it opened in eighteen seventy nine. The institute was highly influential.
It served as a prototype for other education and research
programs around the world world. It was a direct inspiration

(18:02):
for the JOHNS. Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health
in Baltimore that was founded in nineteen seventeen, and one
of the most important publications during this time when he
was really really prolifically contributing to this idea of hygiene
as a science was a lecture titled the Value of
Health to a City, and this work broke down in

(18:24):
numbers the cost of having a population that wasn't in
good health. He noted the average number of six days
taken by a worker in Munich at the time, which
was twenty and he calculated that those days cost the
city three point four million gould in a year. And
he then outlined how if they developed a sewage system
and they raised sanitation standards, the city could actually far

(18:47):
exceed making up for those losses and actually save additional
money every year. He studied how air quality impacted population health,
how clothing impacted health, and the benefits of raising plants indoors.
He examined how ventilation could contribute to or detract from
overall health. The petent Cofher number, which is a number

(19:08):
that represents quote an absolute CO two concentration of zero
point one percent or one thousand parts per million, is
still used today. His teaching reflected his findings. He evangelized
the importance of clean air, clean water, clean soil, a
clean home, as well as good clothing and nutrition. Thus,
this idea of hygiene as a medical issue really became

(19:30):
an interdisciplinary field. Pet and Coffer really considered the role
of environment in a person's health, and to him it
was very clear that city planning should include this as
a consideration. He was not obviously the first person to
think about this. You can find texts going far far
back into ancient times where there are some connections being
made about living conditions and health. But his work to

(19:54):
identify specific causal relationships between the way people live and
their health beyond what could be considered common sense was
pretty new, and he recognized that this was a field
that would also have to be agile as civilization shifted
over time, writing quote, it is a peculiarity of hygiene
to change its field of research and, within certain limits

(20:16):
its field of study, according to time and circumstances. Even
as the Hygienic Institute was under construction, other job offers
came in. When Pettenkofer was asked to become head of
the German Empire Health Council in eighteen seventy six, he
turned it down, although he did serve in a smaller
role as a consultant. We are about to head into

(20:37):
the later years of Pettenkoper's life including one very strange
and risky experiment. But first we are going to pause
for a word from the show's sponsors. The eighteen eighties
were prolific for pet and Koefer, who continued his examination

(20:59):
of Kohler and his defense of his theory of how
disease spread. In eighteen eighty two, he collaborated on a
project titled Handbook for Hygiene with the German physician Hugo
Wilhelm von Ziemsen, and that handbook, which makes it sound
like a handy thing you could put in your pocket,
was actually published in five volumes. In eighteen eighty three,
Pettenkoefer founded a second periodical, Archive for Hygiene. This was

(21:24):
in many ways an outlet for Pettenkoeffer to continue his
writing about hygiene and disease. In eighteen eighty six and
eighteen eighty seven, he wrote a total of seven hundred
and fifty six pages of content for this journal. The
same year that he founded it, German microbiologist Robert Cooch
showed that Vibrio coolare was the bacterium responsible for cholera.

(21:46):
Pettenkoefer continued to believe that this was only part of
the cause, though although Pettenkofer defended his ideas. Really to
the end, Cooch's work eclipsed his as it became the
accepted scientific fact. One of the big drivers in his
writing and research was field work. Peten Koffer was never
just postulating about all of his ideas about how disease

(22:09):
was passed. He wasn't just sitting in his study. He
actually made a point to travel to locations where there
had been cholera outbreaks and study the conditions there, because
he was always looking for additional data to add to
his ever growing body of works, all in the hopes
that he could crack this problem and bring an end
to epidemic outbreaks. And that's an important side note that

(22:31):
we should make here. The reason the debate between contagionists
and anti contagionists was so impassioned was because these were
serious matters of public health. How could scientists and the
municipalities who took their council protect people. In eighteen forty nine,
a London cholera outbreak that had inspired Snow's work claimed

(22:52):
the lives of more than fourteen thousand people. And this
was only one issue that was in play. There were
also le which is now more often called Hanson's disease,
typhus plague, and yellow fever disease was something that everyone
took seriously and that scientists were constantly trying to understand,
even if they came to drastically different conclusions. So, going

(23:15):
back to Max von Pettenkofer's field epidemiology, particularly in instances
where the location of an outbreak didn't fit the model
that he had developed, he was pretty quick to go
there and try to figure out why. In most cases,
these were instances where a city or a village that
had had an outbreak was not built on porous soil,

(23:35):
which was something that he felt was vital to how
this whole system worked. For example, Malta, there had been
a cholera epidemic on the island in eighteen thirty seven,
but Malta was rock, which would seem to contradict pet
and Coffer's theory about porous soil. But when he actually
went and visited the island, he saw that that rock

(23:56):
was in fact porous. It's limestone, so he felt like
this actually supported his idea. Conversely, he noted that the
city of Leon, France had not had an outbreak despite
being a major metropolitan area that had two rivers that
skirted the city center and a bustling trade business. Pet
and Kofer concluded that even though there were other factors

(24:17):
that might contribute to an outbreak in leon, the fact
that the city's substrate was granite had saved it from epidemics. Yeah,
he was like, this whole fermentation process cannot happen here
because granite. And through all of this cholera study, he
was also still advocating for a general improvement in hygiene
everywhere is a key to good health, and particularly drinking

(24:40):
and just having good clean water. Even though he didn't
agree with the idea that contaminated water was what spread cholera.
He thought everybody should just have clean water because that
was best. He wrote quote for good health, pure water
is as necessary as pure air, good food, comfortable quarters,
and so forth. I myself, I'm an enthusiast in the

(25:01):
matter of drinking water, but not from fear of cholera
or typhoid fever, but simply from a pure love for
the good. For me, water is not only a necessary
article of food, but a real pleasure which I prefer
and believe to be more healthful than good wine or
good beer. He was a borderline teetotaler. He was not
really a fan of alcohol at all. Boo. When Pettenkofer

(25:26):
turned seventy in eighteen eighty eight, the cities of Munich
and Leipzig each gave him cash gifts to be used
for his pet and Kofer Foundation of Hygienic Investigation. In
eighteen ninety he was elected as president of the Bavarian
Academy of Sciences, and in eighteen ninety three he was
given Munich's highest honor, which was the gold Burgess Medal,
and that was in recognition of his lifetime of work.

(25:49):
Is he ninety also brought some sorrow. Max's wife, Helene
died that year, and the couple had also lost three
of their five children over the years, and all of
this loss really took a toll on the scientist in
his later life. The most dramatic story of Pettenkofer's life
and work took place in eighteen ninety two. It is
the part that I referenced grossing me out when I

(26:10):
read this outline during breakfast. He was so convinced that
a microorganism alone could not make you sick that he
put his own life on the line to prove it.
On October seventh, eighteen ninety two, he got a culture
of vibrio coollery from a sick patient. He mixed it
into bullion and he drank it. The experienced quote light

(26:31):
diarrhea with an enormous proliferation of the basili in the stool,
but he recovered pretty quickly. The two of his students
tried the same thing. They both survived, but also became
very ill. These were Petankoffer's thoughts on his rash experiment. Quote.
Even if I had deceived myself and the experiment endangered
my life, I would have looked death quietly in the eye,

(26:53):
for mine would have been no foolish or cowardly suicide.
I would have died in the service of science ants
like a soldier on the field of honor. Health and
life are as I have so often said, very great
earthly goods, but not the highest for man. Man, if
he will rise above the animals, must sacrifice both life

(27:14):
and health for the higher ideals. In eighteen ninety four,
Pettenkofer retired from teaching. Two years later, he also gave
up his court apothecary position, and then, finally in eighteen
ninety nine, he ended all his other professional obligations and
retired primarily to Lake Starnberger in the southwest of Munich.
We had a summer home there. In early nineteen oh one,

(27:36):
Pettenkofer entered a serious depression triggered by a painful throat infection.
On February tenth, nineteen oh one, he shot and killed himself.
His body was autopsied, and it revealed that he had
been living with chronic meningitis, as well as symptoms that
would later be recognized as cerebral calcification. Bettenkofer was buried

(27:57):
in his beloved Munich and Thalkirk Cemetery. Today there's a
statue of him in Maximilian's Square in Munich. The Hygienic
Institute at the University of Munich, which Pettinkofer had leveraged
his Vienna offer to get built, was destroyed in World
War II when it was bombed on July thirteenth, nineteen
forty four. More than twenty years later, in nineteen sixty seven,

(28:20):
it was finally rebuilt and it became the Max von
Pettenkofer Institute. That institute continues today as a research and
teaching organization focusing on microbiology, epidemiology, and virology, and it
also offers hygienic microbiological testing for clinical facilities. His periodical
Archive for Hygiene still exists today, although it's now published

(28:42):
under the name International Journal of Hygiene and Environmental Health.
Max von Pettenkofer may have been wrong about the causes
of epidemics, but he was obviously onto an important aspect
of public health with his staunch defense of hygiene as
vital for the well being of all humankind. The work
that he did, as we said, led to sanitary reform

(29:03):
in a number of places which significantly improve the community's
quality of life. And in modern epidemiology, there is a
recognition that exposure and outcome can be influenced and modified
by other factors, although it's not a cause and effect
situation like he thought. Yeah, there are definitely all kinds
of things that can influence how easy it is for

(29:23):
a pathogen to spread and infect people. But like, it's
not like you would only contract cholera with these specific
things happening like you thought. So to quote with a
quote that nicely summarizes Petnkofer's ideology about the importance of
good health, quote everyone who lives upon the earth deserves

(29:44):
to be well, for a life without health is a misery,
a martyrdom from which everyone longs for release, and when
it may not be by other means, even by death.
I don't know that everyone would agree with that perspective,
but it does see like sum up his whole philosophy. Yeah,
good health is the only way to live, and if
you can't have it, it's not worth living. It's a

(30:06):
little bit grim. Yeah, I'm like ablest right, Uh, Yeah,
it's a He's such an interesting creature and he his
position in all of this really does get eclipsed by
Coke and by Louis Pasteur who were doing their stuff.

(30:28):
And again because he was fundamentally wrong about contagion, but
all of the other stuff he did was amazing. I
had no idea about his work in metabolic science until
I had gotten pretty deep into research, and I was like,
wait a minute, which is really fascinating because that's stuff
that is still used all the time today and it

(30:49):
is an important part of some people's lives. Like, if
you are an athlete, you're depending on science that he
developed to like maintain your optimal performance, because most athletes
have a very serious like new anutrition plan that's developed
after measuring how they're burning carbohydrates and fat, and that
is all part of this. I love that. Thanks so

(31:14):
much for joining us on this Saturday. If you'd like
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