Was there a female pope?

During the Middle Ages, thousands of faithful Catholics believed in the story of a female pope named Joan. But is there any evidence for this story -- not to mention the other stories that grew from the original tale? Listen in and learn more.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Katie Lambert and I'm Sarah Dowdy and starting this
one on a bit of a personal note. When I
was a little kid, I really liked learning the stories

(00:24):
of Catholic saints, especially the female saints, and my favorite
was Tackla, who I chose as my my confirmation name.
They tried to kill her multiple times, but she simply
refused to die. But one story I had never heard
was that of a female pope that I would have
if I had grown up in the Middle Ages. Yeah,
the story of this woman pope popped up near the

(00:46):
end of the thirteenth century, although her time of rule
was said to be much earlier, probably the eight hundreds.
She's supposed to be German born but English lineage, and
that sums up most of the details that we know
about her. And there are many many variations on this story,
but we're going to give you the basics. So when Joan,

(01:07):
who is also known as Agnes Gilberta and several other names,
was a young woman, she fell in love and the
man she loved was a scholar wanting to be with him,
she followed him to Athens, but she was a woman,
so she couldn't be in this rarefied atmosphere of learning
in this Benedictine monastery, And in a story worthy of Shakespeare,

(01:28):
she dressed herself as a man, moving up through the
ranks at this monastery because she was just so brilliant.
And eventually she reached Rome and the highest position of
all in the Roman Church, pope, and supposedly she was
pope for two years. And then this shocking scene happens
during a religious procession from St. Peter's Basilica. She gives

(01:52):
birth while on a horse. What is with the horse?
D I don't know. They keep popping up. So she's
a sinner, she's a liar, and the pope, which makes
it so much more embarrassing. She met her demise in
one of two ways. She was either sent to a
convent or the Romans dragged her behind the horse until
she died and stoned her. And perhaps that baby lived,

(02:15):
perhaps he did not, but if he did, he became
a bishop. So here's the basic story. Again, there are
a lot of variations on it. It's pretty crazy, isn't it. Well,
and whether you believe it or not, people during the
Middle Ages definitely did, and they were encouraged to believe
it by the church. This was considered a very good
example of why women needed to remain subordinate two men. Clearly,

(02:38):
she was unfit to be the head of the Roman Church.
She couldn't even get through a procession without the natural
realities of a one woman's body taking out a baby.
On silly women, they have no control. And soon these
rumors were everywhere about new popes having to be checked
for male genitalia by lower ranking clergy. So posedly this

(03:00):
this new papal candidate would sit on a special chair
with a hole cut in it, and a deacon or
cardinal would reach down and checked to make sure what
should be there was there. So we don't have any
real evidence that this ritual was real. Our our eyewitness
accounts aren't eyewitnesses at all. In the chair that really

(03:23):
was a chair which chasm was probably just used for
an elaborate ritual to enthrone the pope, not to check
him out. But the most important point here is that
people believe this, so regardless of what we know now,
people in the Middle Ages did believe all of this.
That's that's quite the Catholic ritual right there. Jokesters at

(03:44):
the time made the point that since so many of
the popes had children, it was probably pretty easy to
figure out which ones were guys and which ones, And
in the sixteenth century it was suggested that all popes
should have beards. That way you could be sure the
pope was an end to which I say, women with
a hormonal imbalance can have beards, or if they have hyperdricosis.

(04:05):
It's science. This is the health editor Katie coming through.
So also in the sixteenth century, the Reformation began, and
then the church position changes. It changes very dramatically because
the Protestants are starting to use Pope Joan as an
anti Catholic propaganda piece to point out that there's corruption
in the church, major corruption and problems with its hierarchy.

(04:28):
If something this dastard lya could happen, And so the
Catholic Church doesn't about face and claim that, oh, I
hope Joan never really existed at all. Guys, it's just
a story, perhaps a symbolic one to to teach people
their lessons. But you can't claim a story is true
just because it's popular. But how about now, now that

(04:51):
we've moved along from this, this strong belief is conviction
in the Middle Ages, and then are about face and
the Reformation. We are in it the year twenty ten.
So we have two sides, and we'll start with the first.
There was no Pope Joane. So the church position as
that as far as papal lineage goes, it's all been
men all the way back to St. Peter. She's nowhere

(05:14):
in the official papal history because there isn't a reason
for her to be there. She didn't exist. And they
make the point that of all people who would who
would know it would be the Church. They like, we
keep a pretty big library. Well exactly, they like having
their records, so if anybody knows, it's going to be dumb.
The other point denying her existence is that the Catholic

(05:35):
Church doesn't deny the existence of bad pope. So, oh,
John the twelfth, who is who's quite the center. Yeah,
So they're essentially saying, if if we admit to popes
who murdered and tortured and fathered loads of illegitimate children,
don't you think we'd admit to a female pope. Another
strong point is that there isn't a single story about

(05:56):
her from her own century. It's not until four hundred
years later that any of these pop up. And doesn't
that strike you as a little bit odd? Yes, four
hundred years in suddenly a historical figure pops up in
the books. It's it's definitely strange and suspicious. And she
was supposedly pope between Leo the fourth and Benedict the third,

(06:17):
but according to church records, that would have made her
pope only for a few weeks, which seems a bit
ridiculous about how long the ceremony takes. Fancy investiture, and
another church position it was made up by the Protestants
after the Reformation because they hate the Catholic Church, And
this is definitely not true. We've already disproved this one.

(06:40):
The story was around long before the Reformation began. So
then we have our other side. There was too a
Pope Jones. So our first point, why are there all
of these stories about her? If she didn't exist, there
must be someone this was based on. It couldn't have
been made up just out of thin air. Or why
did the church encouraged belief in it for so long?

(07:02):
And everyone at the time accepted it. Surely that says something. Yeah, Katy,
I think you mentioned a writer who said, if there's smoke,
there's fire, and that's that's something to latch onto. But
another point is that there aren't any other stories about
her from her own time because the Church erased them
in the seventeenth century when the Protestants started using her
as anti Catholic propaganda um. And in the fifteenth century

(07:25):
there was a bust of her, supposedly in the Siena Cathedral.
The face was later changed to make it into someone else,
So why would the church do that unless they were
perhaps trying to hide her existence. Also in the fifteenth century,
a heretic said in his trial, many times have the
popes fallen into sin and error? For instance, when Joan

(07:47):
was elected pope who was a woman, not a single
person present contradicted him and it was all clergy. So
I have to admit that's a strong point in their favor.
And going back to the lack of in for nation
about her, there aren't really not many records from her
time anyways. The ninth century is not known for detailed

(08:07):
record keeping, and we barely even have any information about
any of the popes, So we can't say that in
that little bit of time between Leo the fourth and
Benedict to the third, there's conclusive evidence that she didn't
exist or didn't reign between them, right or since there
were bad records, who even knows if that was a
few weeks. It could have been the two years and

(08:28):
something that everyone's been saying in the first place. And
you know, is it so implausible that a woman could
disguise herself as a man and do a man's job.
Maybe not the birth of the horse, Maybe not that part.
So we've got our two sides, are point and our counterpoint.
I do have to say I don't think there was
a Pope joan Um, but there's another way you could

(08:48):
interpret it. Perhaps there have been other female figures in
the church whose stories were entangled with hers. Pope Joan
is said to be on the High Priest Discard and
some tarot decks, but it may actually be a woman
named Guglielma who's also known as the Heretic Saint, and
she's not really a saint, but she's a thirteenth century

(09:10):
religious woman who did inspire a saint cult devoted to her,
which is something that still happens today. I learned recently
the Narco so some of her followers are later burned
at the stake, and according to an article from Church
history by Mona Alice Gene Newman, inquisitors tour apart her tomb,
burned her bones and scattered her ashes, and of course

(09:34):
erased every document that had to do with her life.
So she's she's a person of interest at least. And
there are certainly women who have exerted considerable influence over
popes too much for the liking of many, and other
women who have inspired great devotion. And perhaps there wasn't
a pope Jane, but there was a woman who was

(09:55):
high ranking in the church and that story turned into
something else. So what relevance does that have for us today?
Of course, the role of women in the church is
still complicated. Yeah, the church today maintains that women are
of equal value as men, but they're very different and
therefore they're suited to different roles. And by encouraging women

(10:18):
to fulfill the role that nature and God has intended
for them, which is motherhood, they're honoring woman's unique gifts.
And that's why women can't be ordained priests much less
be pope. Right, and I'm sure you're all familiar with
a critics response to that if you've opened in your
favorite open a newspaper. And it's not our place to

(10:41):
voice any opinion on the matter, but I think we
can confidently say that a female pope today would not
have to give birth on a horse, and also that
Pope Joan might make a really good Halloween costume, if
you don't mind explaining who you are all night. Yes,
speak of Halloween costumes, We've gotten some responses after our
Egyptian episodes. A few people want to be a Mama

(11:04):
Luke for Halloween, which I think sounds like a great costume,
especially if you get that jeweled sword. I'm tentatively planning
on being a Cannibal queen, but that has absolutely nothing
to do with any History episode we've ever done. Unless
I can historical respend us your your recommendation, Cannibal Queen.

(11:25):
It is interesting that this story has lasted for so long.
We've gotten so many emails requesting the Pope Jones story,
and I'd like to hear about why you think it's endured,
So email us at History Podcast at how Stuff Works
dot com and let us know your opinions. And if
you have another favorite antipope you'd like us to talk

(11:46):
about again, send us an email. And speaking of email,
we have some listener emails for today, So our email
today it's from Virginia. And we were actually fortunate enough
to do an a view with Virginia just the other day.
She hosts Inside the Podcasting Studio as well as Tutor Talk,
and we like her. We talked to her about what

(12:07):
it's like recording this podcast, but she also emailed us
regarding our five Stars of the wild West and our
question about what exactly bulldogging was and what the modern
incarnation of it. It has nothing to do with U.
D A. In case my fellow bulldogs were confused, we
were just growing in some school spirit there. So Virginia

(12:29):
wrote us, as a Texan who has attended many a rodeo,
I believe I can answer your question about the modern
incarnation of bulldogging. The one that is probably most like
it now is called steer wrestling. A cowboy starts on
a horse in the starting box. The steer is also
in the starting box right next to him. When the
steers released, the cowboy must essentially chase it, jump off

(12:51):
the horse, and wrestle the stair to the ground. In
order for the clock to stop, the steer has to
fall over at least on its side, if not on
its back. The cowboy with the best time wins. If
the cowboy breaks the barrier quote of the starting box,
essentially the same as jumping the gun and racing, he
gets a ten second penalty. And she described a few
other similar forms of steer wrestling, which gave me the

(13:16):
strong desire to attend a rodeo. See I decided I
was not meant to be a rodeo queen or a
rodeo attendee, but I think you can go to one
maybe in Katasaw. I remember seeing ads. I did not
want to attend bull fighting now after this Spanish incident
where the bull broke up into the stands and trampled
a bunch of people. So um, I don't know, Maybe

(13:38):
I'll change my mind if I if I watched that
Spanish video. We'll talk about it later. So thank you
Virginia for talking with us and for sending us your
rodeo tips and if you have cool stuff to send
us again. Our email is History Podcast at how stuff
works dot com. We also have a Facebook fan page.

(13:58):
You can catch up with what we're doing, and it's
cool way for us to respond to you more quickly
than we can an email. And as far as that goes,
Brian with a y, I'm sorry I spelled your name
with an eye. Our commenters are who very involved this week.
We also have a Twitter feed at missed in History,
and again it's a good way to keep up with

(14:18):
what we're doing on a daily basis. I you know,
can send out a survey on who wants to date
a dragon lord and and give birth to eggs and yes,
and that might have given you a clue. We were
talking about the Chunk sisters. So we're gonna try to
find a way here to wrap up dragon lords and
tie them back into poet. I think you can do it.
My connection is Pope Joan the Dark Ages. We have

(14:43):
female pope. Maybe we have night and we have nights
to fight dragons owen saints. You are nights might dragon saint. Yeah,
this is getting really good. So if you want to
learn more about popes at least, you can check out
our article how the papes He works By searching on
the home page. It's www dot how stuff works dot com.

(15:05):
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