Cults: Who is this "The Leader?"

Cults are conventionally understood to be unestablished, non-mainstream religious groups that follow a single leader. So what does it take to be the leader? Tune in as Josh and Chuck take a closer look at cults.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you should know
from House Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with me as always his
brother Chuck Bryant. Brother Chuck. How are you doing today,

(00:22):
josh Odie? I'm doing just fine. Do you know what
I was gonna leave with? I just had Josh Odi
ready at the ready. Okay, you'll understand everybody in the second, right, Chuck.
I know you know this, But let's go back to
the night of March. Do you know what happened in
Rancho Santa Fe, a suburb of a suburb of San

(00:45):
Diego that night? I do? Okay, Well, I'm gonna tell
you anyway. Uh. Thirty nine people Well, beginning that night,
over three days, beginning that night, thirty nine people gave
up their lives. Uh. And they are. They were collectively
known as Heaven's Gate. They were the members of the
Heaven's Gate cult famously wore those black nikes um and

(01:10):
beginning on Marche, which was the spring solstice, the vernal
equinox um, a commet was coming by the hail bop comment,
And what the Heaven's Gate members believed was that UM
flying using the comment is cover, was a spaceship that
they could go rendezvous with the pilots and basically UM

(01:30):
be picked up as spirits and attached to the pilots
of this spaceship because the world was coming to an
end here and they needed to get out of here.
But they had to commit ritualistic suicide. So on the
first night, about a third of them took a combination
of apple sauce and UM pharmaceuticals and I think Jack
Daniels or something uh and died and for good measure

(01:54):
put bags over their heads uh. And then once they
were dead, the other members cleaned them up and so
on UM. And this happened for three nights in a row,
until thirty nine people were dead and found in this mansion.
UM two didn't didn't make it. They weren't there something,
and they went and got a hotel room and killed
themselves in the desert like a month later. UM. But

(02:16):
what's what's interesting about Heaven's Gate is that they all
of these were suicides. There was no murder. And you
go back and look at UM what are called like
their exit videos. There's about ten hours of tape of
the members talking and they seem very excited about what
they're going to do, seem vari at peace. It's disturbing

(02:37):
to watch now, but they seem very relaxed, very at peace,
and very much like they know what they're doing. Yeah. Um,
So aside from even though these these were um, these
weren't forced, they were suicides, and because it ended in
a apocalyptic suit mass suicide pact, Heaven's Gate would be

(02:58):
what's called a destructive which we're Although it's titled How
Cults Work, this episode is actually about destructive cults are
the ones that are get all depressed. One reason why
we're gonna we need to make that differentiation is because
in a lot of ways, um, the in a lot
of cases the only difference between cult and a religion

(03:22):
is whether or not it's mainstream. Right, careful, but it's true. Well,
there's a few differences. Mainstream is one. Uh, Usually a
mainstream religion will have a hierarchy, whereas a cult will
have the single leader in the hierarchy in theory keeps
one another in check. And uh, the cults usually demand

(03:42):
absolute um commitment, like you live there yeah, and whereas
a mainstream religion generally does not require that you can
have your own home. Okay, so we're not saying it's
the same thing as religion. No, But if you are
a sociologist a psychologist UM, and you've there's going to
be very little distinction between the two UM. So that's

(04:06):
not the case though with UM destructive or totalist cults,
they're very different, right they are. You You can make
the case that religion or a non destructive cult UM
helps its members get over their vulnerabilities, I think, is
how it's put in this article. Through spiritual guidance support,

(04:26):
it's a good place of growth, is what it's intended
to be. A destructive cult is basically UM run by
a person with the intent of absolute control over the
members in a complete surrender of their will. I have
a question, and that's this is a good time to
put it in there. I wonder sometimes because we're gonna

(04:48):
talk about cult leaders specifically in a bit, but I
wonder if the cult leader and I think it it varies,
actually believes Like when I see Marshall apple White, I
think he really believed this stuff seemed to when I
see a Jim Jones, he seems like a huckster. Well,
he was on a lot of drugs, on drugs, uh
having sex with multiple women. Umm, Martial apple White was

(05:11):
not having sex with multiple women. He was a unique
and not into women. Um. But my point is, like
the cult leader, I guess vary. Sometimes they really actually
believe that. Sometimes they're you know, manipulators who are power
hungry and and maybe after money or what have you. Right,
And I think that there's probably a transition that any

(05:32):
cult leader would undergo as the power and loyalty grows.
And even if you are a huckster, you're eventually going
to start buying into your own hype just because it's
so appealing, you know. Good point. But yeah, I think
that is a great point to to put in their chuck,
that there are cult leaders out there who believe in
what they're saying. Um. So we've we've said basically the

(05:55):
primary characteristic of a destructive cult is that there's uh
at solute control over the members, a surrender of will
um to the group and ultimately to the leader. Right,
who is this the leader? Is that time? Yeah? Okay,
no no, no no, no, no, no no, no leader. We

(06:16):
mentioned the Simpsons, whether movementarians. Yeah, remember the right episode
the flying bikes, the hover bikes with the comb in
the wax paper. So Simpsons fans, hold your emails. Yes,
we didn't mention it covered right, But um so let's
let's talk about um. I guess this authoritarian leadership structure

(06:39):
you you might call it. What are the hallmarks of it? Well,
it's one of the hallmarks is like we said, it's
it's typically just one dude. Let me say dude, because
it's usually a man. Although there are some um instances
that's not sure. We'll get to those in a minute, right,
And that's one of the problems because power, we've seen
it time and time again, can corrupt even the most

(07:01):
supurate heart, and a lot of these aren't pure at
heart to begin with. And then uh, another problem here
is that there they operate outside the mainstream. So in
the case of Jim Jones, which I know we're gonna
get to in detail, they were in Ghana, Guiana, Guiana.
Oh God, that's a different place, right, They're in Guiana,

(07:22):
So they were way outside the mainstream, so they didn't
have people checking up on them. And it's it's the
isolation factor. Is huge. Yes, if the religious group that
you subscribe to UM lives on a ranch together, it
may be a cult. Yeah we're in the woods or
in Guiana. Right. Um. There's some other I guess kind

(07:45):
of giveaways that become less and less apparent the more
immersed you become. UM. And that would be deception and recruiting,
right UM thought reformed techniques, which, although very controversial UM,
are believed to be real and can have an an
effect on a person's outlook. Yeah, all right, we'll get

(08:08):
into that as well, in much more detail. And we've
got into a big time in brainwashing, we did, and
and that's UM. A lot of those are very similar.
You brainwash me, I did. Remember you're no longer a hipster,
that's right, but I still have the goatee. Uh. Good
out outside is bad, whoever is on the inside is good.

(08:29):
That's a huge homework. Like a real us in them,
a clear divide is on us and very much, which
can lead to a lot of feelings of persecution, paranoia
and UM. Generally an idea that or that's I guess
generally supported by the idea that UM, since most destructive
cults are religious in nature, Uh, that the in group,

(08:49):
the cult is saved and everybody outside the bad people
are all damned to hell. So let's talk about the
the leader himself. The leader, Yeah, well, they're usually very charismatic,
very charming, can turn on the world with a smile,
or at least their cult with a smile. They which

(09:10):
gets people, you know, very much readily able to follow
them without question. Um. They're very devoted. They don't question
the leader. They don't question what the leader tells them
to do. They you know, this is once you're in,
not you know, initially there may be questions, but after
the thought reform takes place, well you're in. The reason

(09:32):
forethought reform is to get rid of those questions, right, yeah. Uh.
They are typically either say their God and considered God
or the Messiah, or that they are the only path
to God. Their prophets. Essentially, they have some sort of
religious designation, right, singular religious designation that no one else
in the cult has but them, which means whether the leader.

(09:56):
And you can't really topple the leader unless you too
are prophet, which I imagine that's got to be a
surprising day for everybody in the Coultwan. You know, maybe
a number two or three in command goes, you know what,
I just found out that I am a prophet as well,
and the leaders like um trouble brewing. Yah. The other
important thing here too, I thought was interesting that typically

(10:17):
cult members are devoted to the leader and not the
even the leader's ideas. Yeah. That's a good point too, Like,
you know, Jim Jones, stay worshiped Jim Jones, not his
Christian ideals. Because as pointed out Um, Jim Jones UH
and David Koresh, who was the leader of the Branch

(10:38):
division davidians Um both started out in in what we
would consider mainstream religious groups. Jim Jones was a pastor
Christian pastor. He was the Disciples of Christ was his
original Christian group, and David Koresh's was he was originally
in the Seventh day Adventist. Yeah. Um. And one of

(10:59):
the ways that cult leaders become cult leaders is that
they are often overly enthusiastic maybe in their mainstream religious groups.
They freak their mainstream religious groups out pretty much and
they're like, you need to get out here. But their
ideas or their charisma or whatever, there's something about them

(11:20):
that makes other members of the church go, I'm going
with this guy, splinter off, create your own cult. It's
no longer mainstream, so you're cold. And in the case
of Koresh, he was um showed some instability and some
of the things that he was influencing some of the
the youth in the church. They said, no, you don't
like what you're telling the kids, so you need to
get out of here. Yeah, and we don't like that

(11:41):
you're touching the kids, so you need to get out.
And I'm going out. I'm taking the kids with me. Yeah.
Apparently also um uh, not Jim Jones, but the prophet
Mo who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart. Apparently he and David Koresh.
And I was reading this. I only saw it in
one place, but I didn't get a chance to really
cry us reference it. Um that both of them had

(12:02):
their first sexual experiences with far, far older women, like
Koresh's um first encounter with a woman was with the
seventies six year old and I mean, you laugh, but
I mean, like, I think he's a teenager. But um,
what's strange is both of them went the opposite way

(12:23):
after that, Like Koresh's second wife was fourteen. Um, the
prophet Mo kidnapped Elizabeth Smart and I think she was
like fourteen as well, So, um, there's interesting. I think
that's something for deeper study, don't you think, Like if
you're sexual encounter, so the very old person become a
cult leader, that's probably a pretty good predictor you're gonna

(12:46):
take very young wives and the FBI is gonna come
set your compound on fire. At the very least, it
shows you might be unstable. Sure, I don't know if
they would just see that and say a variety of
a spice of life or I mean, surely you've seen
Harold and Maud so it can go really well. So
you're right, Josh. A lot of times occult leaders are
former religious mainstream religious leaders or members. Not always in

(13:09):
the case of like a Charlie Manson, right, who who
personifies the huckster you're talking about. Yeah, he wasn't a
religious dude at all. He was um, psychotic and emotionally
disturbed from the time that he was a young kid
and a thief and a vandal and eventually rapist and
pimp and fraud a pretty big jerk in general jerk.

(13:32):
So he was let out of prison. Um as everyone knows.
At one point in the late sixties, I went to
San Francisco. All the hippies were very susceptible to his charms,
his little short midget redneck charms. Right, because when you're
on acid, Charlie Manson makes a lot of sense. Yeah,
you know, But you know, I never heard him talk
until later in life, and when I did, I went

(13:54):
I had no idea he was such a redneck. Oh yeah,
I heard his accent and I was like, you gotta
be kidding me. He this is the guy that got
people to murder all these faults and that that forced
like labored stare like, look at my eyes, and it's
just laughable. Yea, it is, Sorry, Charlie, but it worked
in his case, and the Manson family famously killed um

(14:15):
how many people, seven people, Roman Plantcy's wife, most of
them at the at Sharon Tate's house, Sharon Tate. Yeah,
and he didn't do it himself, which is, you know,
one of the traits of a good cult leaders. You
can get people to do things for you. Yeah. But um,
the the US prosecutors still, or the California prosecutors still
managed to get him put away for life, even though

(14:36):
he didn't kill anybody, just the ordering of these murders.
They got him pretty good. I think the state of
California was more than willing to keep Charlie Manson locked
up forever though. It's well, he's pretty notorious for in
his parole hearings just saying really crazy things still where
they're like, okay, yeah, you clearly don't have any interest.
I remember being a kid, like I never understood that

(14:58):
when I when I came to understand there was a
Charlie Manson, and like he did say the stuff and
at parole hearings like why would you do that? And
my dad told me, like, if he gets out of prisons,
he's dead. And now I don't think that that's necessarily true,
although he probably would still believe that. Um, but he's
probably so institutionalized he wouldn't know what to do because

(15:19):
he was in jail for years off and on, you know,
from his teenage years on. He has a cell phone.
They caught him on the cell phone recently in jail.
What are you calling me? Are you sure? I'm positive?
So Manson referred to himself as God and Satan both
well his followers did. Yeah, um, squeaky From. Yeah, apparently

(15:42):
after Charlie was locked up, Um, Squeaky From decided that
his plight was losing media attention, Charlie's plight, Um, and
so she uh tried to shoot Gerald Ford and it
definitely got attention. Again. I think that that, if anything,
if if the murders didn't cement the Manson family into

(16:04):
the American psyche forever, Squeaky From managed to finally put
the glue in the bone, as it were, with the
attempted presidential assassination. Yeah, and she also carved an X
in her forehead on the courthouse steps. And Manson still
has a swastia on his forehead. It's tough to get
rid of. Yeah, just ask the Inglories bastards. Right, so, Josh, Yes,

(16:29):
let's talk about recruitment. Yeah, what kind of a person
would fall for this? Clearly, a raving lunatic is the
only person who could become a full occult member, right, wrong?
What and seen? We uh a lot a lot of
times you think of them as mentally ill, but they've

(16:51):
done studies and apparently there's only a slightly higher incidence
of mental instability and cult members then you and me, Well,
mental illness at least, yeah, and the than in the
regular population. What they have found that most people in
the normal population don't have that cult members usually have

(17:11):
in common is that when they were recruited, it was
during a particularly stressful period in their life. You know,
that scale of stressful life events like death of a spouse, divorce, um,
death of a child, adolescence. Yeah, that's that's up there,
really far Um, any of those make you, while you're

(17:33):
going through them, better cult recruit than you would normally be.
You've been stressed out lately. Oh I just joined up?
Are you? Are you right for the picking my robes
in my bank? That's not true because you're not any
of these other things like gullible. You don't think I am,
of course not. Gullibility is a trait, you know. You

(17:54):
gotta believe what's going on here pretty easily. Um. Usually
you're unassertive. Uh, you're dissolute Asian with what's going on
around you, and you're looking for some answers, right, you're
a naive, that's and you're looking for some spiritual meaning
in your life. And I'm utterly and totally dependent you are. Well,

(18:16):
that's yeah, that's on the list at least UM. And
there are actually places where people who fit these bills
are going through a period in time in their life
that's rough tend to hang out more than say the
average bar or whatever. That would be a self help group,
grief support group, UM, basically any group where people sit

(18:39):
around in a circle and there's crying. That's a pretty
good place you you want to be on the lookout
for a cult recruiter there. Uh. And one of the
you're you're probably not going to exit the conference room
in the local community center after your grief support group
and you know, see some guy in a road handing
you a flower. It would be it will be much

(19:01):
less obvious than that. It'll probably be someone who's a
member of the group. Yeah, that's one of the ways.
If you say I would never fall for that, think
about if someone you knew personally UM invited you to
a meeting where you were going to talk about better
ways to help the community raise some money for a
New Boys club, Right, and you happen to be at

(19:21):
church and you're you know, one of the deacons vouched
for the person who was talking. You wouldn't even question them, right,
That's how it happened. Sometimes or if you were at
a group support group and somebody said, hey, you know,
this is peanuts compared to this other group support group.
This this group of people have um all been through
this tragedy and they are um really great at getting

(19:43):
people past the stages of grief. So you should come
and hang out. You should try this other one too. Um.
There's a lot of deception associated with cult recruitment. As
a matter of fact, it's pretty much the hallmark of it, right. Yeah.
Initially they don't tell you what in the world you're
in for because you probably wouldn't go, probably though, right. Uh.
They isolate you from the get go with um their

(20:06):
meetings usually the whole meetings at times where you may
normally be with your family dinner, dinner time. They might
hold it at a place like a retreat, get you
away for the weekend, so you're hearing nothing but the
cults ideas and views for a weekend, which makes it
seem during that forty eight hours a lot less weird. Yeah,
and you've got no feedback, You've got no feedback from

(20:28):
the real world. Yes, because once you go back out
in there and you haven't fully joined up, so you're
still going to and from your house to these meetings,
which are remember grief support meetings that have a lot
to do with you know, religion that you haven't noticed before.
But it's cool. Um, you're asked when you go back
home not to talk about the group until you understand

(20:49):
it more like you know, they don't. You don't want
to hear anyone poop doing it just yet because you
won't get it. Yeah, they won't get it, and so
you don't. And like you said, your feedback structure is narrowed,
so you don't have anything but self doubt. Your doubts
that would normally be of the group are now doubts
about yourself. Because why why why do you always have
so such a tendency to just criticize everything. I mean,

(21:13):
look at all these people, they're all happy and smiling,
and they seem Yeah, why can't you just get on board?
And then you're suddenly a lot more susceptible to joining up. Yeah. Well,
and at that point that's when they can hit you
with the proper mind control techniques brainwashing one O one.
Should we go over it? Yeah, I'm sure there's plenty

(21:35):
of people who are hearing this that didn't listen to brainwashing.
But you know what, if you have it, and you
should go back and listen to it twice three times
in a place in the woods where we'll meet you.
It's if you play it backwards, the location will be repealed.
We're laughing. Nothing about this is funny except the things

(21:57):
that we're saying. Um, thought reform, brainwashing, coercive persuasion is
this is the key here. It is the systematic breakdown
of your sense of self. And it's similar to what
you do in uh, let's say Guantanamo Bay, maybe when
you're interrogating a prisoner. Sure, similar techniques. You could also

(22:18):
make a pretty strong case that it's similar to what
happens to here in boot camp. And the article goes
out of its way to defend boot camp by saying
there's three huge differences. One, the military is accountable for
its actions. Destructive cults tend not to be until, like,
you know, the government's at your door. Um. Recruits who

(22:39):
join up are making an informed decision. They know that
they're going to be going in to be broken down
and built up as a soldier. Yeah, I'm gonna look
in dress like the other people and eat the same
meals and all that kind of thing, and then um,
there's a set period of time. Yeah, it's not for
the rest of your life. Until you eat that apple sauce.
It's fill the g I bill and you're done. So Chuck,

(23:02):
let's talk about the techniques. Well, they're gonna deceive you,
they're gonna trick you. Uh, they're gonna hide all signs
of real paranoid They're gonna hide all signs of anything
illegal or immoral at first. So you're buying into it,
you know, all you're also not going to get the

(23:23):
full picture of what the cults about. Like we said
that grief support group is not really what it is.
Sometimes they might even uh, you know, alter your consciousness
a bit with like meditation or drugs or chanting. That
kind of thing make you vulnerable. We already talked about isolation.
That's one of the biggest parts of it. And it
doesn't necessarily have to be physical isolation, although it can be.

(23:44):
Patty Hurst famously, when she was kidnapped by the Symbionese
Liberal Liberation Army UM, she was apparently put into a
closet for like weeks, and she was berated and yelled
at and like her, her families capitalist trappings were um criticized,
and she came out like, let's go rob a bank. Well,

(24:07):
I wondered, I bet the late sixties and seventies people
we're probably I mean that's when Jonestown, Yeah, the s. L. A.
Manson family, the Moonies were huge then. They're still around,
but there they were really big in the seventies. Um,
it makes you wonder, I don't. I don't think we
have any idea yet about what part of that period

(24:29):
of history made it so readily available for cults to
pop up, because it happened in the nineteenth century too.
There are a lot of cults, um that came about
for some reasons out of the blue. I wonder what
it was. But the Internet helps nowadays just access to information, right,
But I can think about it, like, you don't think
of cults being like pervasive these days like they were

(24:52):
in the seventies. Dud, Yeah, no, no, not at all.
So I mean, like, what was it about the late
sixties and the throughout the seventies that made them so now?
I meant the lack of internet back then, to the
lack of information, there were way more in the dark
about things and and of course, in Manson's case, he
had a bunch of you know, acid head hippies that like, yeah, man,
it's pretty cool. You're into the Beatles, pot pac Man

(25:15):
feverhead and yeah that's true. So isolation, like we said,
is huge. It's one of the biggest hallmarks of thought
reform because when you don't have anyone around you except
for people that are doing the same thing you're doing,
it seems completely normal. Um. There's also a complete and
utter dependency that's created in the member, right, Yeah, that's

(25:38):
the big part. Two. Um, if you can basically, if
you can get somebody inspired two idolize the leader, then
the leader's message that hey, you belong to this group
and and here's what we do is paramount, right. Yeah.
It creates a sense of this pendency, especially when the

(26:01):
leader says, by the way, this group is your family. Now,
don't talk to anybody else. You don't need to interact
with the outside world. We grow our own food here,
or we do our own things, we educate our own children. Um.
They they cult becomes your life, and everybody needs a life.
And especially if you're already predisposed to a real sense

(26:22):
of belonging or in need for a sense of belonging.
You're gonna buy into this a lot more easily, and
this dependency will be induced even more readily. Yeah. Well,
and what they do is they hit you with the
one two punch. They show you lots of love, but
they also offer lots of guilt and shame. If you
are dancing around talking to your family or things like that,

(26:44):
they shame you. They guilt you. And then when you say,
do you know what you're right? Uh, it's about the leader,
then they reap the love back onto your head and
you know you're like, wow, these people, this is where
it's at. They really really care about me. Right, Because again,
if you have a need to belong and all of
a sudden, like the members of the group are turning
their back on you're not really talking to you're just
kind of treating you coolly. That's going to have an

(27:07):
enormous impact on your psyche. And you're going to go
ahead and abandon any doubts or whatever it was that
made them turn their backs on you so you can
get their approval again and be loved. Yeah, you're striving
for acceptance. Basically, that's pretty deep. Dependence huge. The other
thing is that the time clock is very controlled. It's
not like, oh, the branch Davidians just live in this

(27:28):
compound and you just wake up every day and kind
of do what you want. It's breakfast, is it from
eight to eight thirty? Bible study is from nine thirty.
You have free time for thirty minutes, then we have lunch.
Then you know, every minute is accounted for, very very structured.
Even during free time you're still like talking about the
leader's teachings something like that. And it's not like did

(27:49):
you watch American Idol last night? Right? The meals are
all you know? Ready, you don't have a lot of
people disappeals to a lot of people because it's the
decision making is taken away from you and you're all
of a sudden leading a very peaceful lifestyle. I don't
have to think about anything. It takes the guesswork out
of living. Yeah, a lot of people are into that.

(28:10):
Some are yeah, um, and they make really good cult members.
It turns out, I guess they're actually at the very
least the least damaged of the cult members that are
um damaged by cults. Right right, Um, Chuck, there's also
a sense of dread. Right. Yeah. One more thing I
want to mention though, and this is interesting to me,
is that if you have a talent, a special talent

(28:32):
that you're good at, they're gonna devalue that and strip
it away. They're gonna take your guitar at the door.
And basically what made you special before the outside world
is no longer applicable because you're you're you live for
the leader. That there's something unusual about Heaven's Gate in
the dependency part where all members dressed exactly like gender

(28:55):
was removed, like everyone was UM supposed to be basically
a sexual and genderless UM. There were of course the
famous like black nikes that everybody wore, but they very
much interacted with the outside world. They had that higher
source web service UM, and they dealt with clients, and
you know, apparently their clients were like these were straight shooters.

(29:16):
They were weird, obviously, but they were not like bad people.
I'm sure Apple White and a business meeting seems like
a real affable guide to work, right, He's very pleasant,
but you look at those eyes, man. So there was
the level of control where like if you had a
meeting with the higher source people. They were all dressed
exactly alike and you couldn't really tell who is the

(29:37):
dude and who is the chick, right and um, but
at the same time you were in a meeting with
the higher source people. That's very daring of of a
leader to allow that level of access to the outside world,
or at the very least, that's a lot of trust
to show in your followers. It's pretty unusual. Yeah, alright,
So dread is where I interrupted you, I think, Um,

(29:59):
so I mean about dread well, Dread is a very
very unusual sensation, and that you can experience dread on
some sort of background level at all times. You can
care even when you're happy, you can still have a
sense of dread because dread basically is the idea that

(30:20):
you have no idea what's coming around the corner, and
it's really possible that it's going to be bad. As
a matter of fact, it's likely that what happens to
you sooner than later, it's going to be very bad, right, right,
And is is the idea that the sense of dread
is in the outside world, and that's why you don't
want to go out there. Yes, Um, Either that or
there's also a constant dread or anxiety that you're going

(30:41):
to offend the leader, upset the group, and you're constantly
striving to maintain great good relations with your with the group,
in yourself and among the group. Um. But yeah, a
sense of dread is just it's very unusual like it.
It can haunt you. And that is apparently one of
the hallmarks of a I don't know if it's uh

(31:02):
purposefully instilled, but apparently it's at the very least a
huge byproduct among most people, especially and you talked about
ones who are just fine living the cult life. They
couldn't possibly understand this. But if you're if you intercult
in a in a stressful period in your life, and

(31:22):
you eventually come out of that stressful period, but now
you're in the cult, your former personality and your new
personality are going to conflict. That creates a sense of dread.
And that's why destructive cults can be so harmful to people,
not not just mentally, but physically as well, because you're
not supposed to walk around stressed out all the time.
It's bad for you to the old U. That's the

(31:45):
old U in the outside world, but you're not supposed
to be thinking about the old you, and you, by God,
you better not talk about the old Yu or wonder
what's going on in the outside world. So you're constantly
pressing down natural thoughts in order to conform to the group,
and you're just you're there's just psychological havoc being wreaked

(32:05):
on you constantly. You don't know which way is up.
Confusion creates paralyzation a lot of times for these people
because some of them, it said later in the article
that I said, some people work for years to get
out of a cult, but they're just paralyzed with fear, uncertainty, confusion, dread,
and I think also probably um, the cult members already

(32:27):
were predisposed of this kind of personality, like don't like
to make choices, like even small ones. It's not very confident,
that kind of thing. But I would imagine like those
problems are just exacerbated even further in a cult. I
don't think so. So, Josh, let's say you're in a cult. Uh,
not all cults are the same, but there are a

(32:49):
few commonalities for sure. Um, you talk to people that
you know. There's always interviews with people that get out
of cults, because you get a lot of insight there obviously,
and plus they're just sexy press. It's very sexy press. Uh.
They usually talk about anxiety, fear. Um did I not
say that, being cut off from their family and friends,

(33:11):
and basically a ceasing of psychological growth. Yeah, no questioning,
no no thinking on your own at all. And Uh,
they don't realize this, of course until they get out.
But it's well, it's not too late because they're out,
but it's too late for Heaven's Skate. Although I made
the point before when we talked about Heaven's Kate. They're
the only ones who know whether or not managed to

(33:32):
escape these vests. They may be partying on the other
side of the Hilbop. You never know. Uh, let's talk
about money. We we mentioned that Heaven's Gate were at
a successful web design business. Uh, some of them because
they need money. You can't operate I mean it's sort
of like a business. You can't operate a cult without
dough or t Uh. Some of them are fraudulent tax evaders,

(33:59):
stuff like that. And I think they were just cheap
and hippies and things and and but for the most part,
when you enter cult, you're basically surrendering your finances. And
if you're a wealthy person, you're a very desirable cult member. Yeah.
Sometimes you have to donate a large sum or all
of it and you don't need it anyways, Just go
ahead and sell your house and come live with us.

(34:20):
But earthly desires, you can lead those behind, exactly. So
that's to me, though, We'll take care of it, but exactly,
I'm I'm the signatory on your account. Now. Um, I think, uh,
that's probably the most common way that cults finance themselves
is through the members, right. Yeah, So let's say the
stress has gotten to you're like, you know, I kind

(34:42):
of got over adolescence. I'm fifty four now and I
just don't feel right. I haven't felt right for thirty
two years. Um, I think I'm gonna leave this cult.
There's a door, buddy, Okay. So is it that easy?
Because as you saw in the movie ben Terian episode
of the Simpsons, there was that whole like doctor who

(35:03):
Bubble mole Man was like, you know, setting the dogs
loose on Mars. It was just it was very dangerous,
like anybody can leave at any time, but you really can't.
So can you? Well, you can sometimes sometimes there are
no locked doors and barbed wire, and they will just
shame you and say, you know what, if you walk

(35:25):
out that door, you're never coming back in. You're cut
off from from your family, your new family, so they
will shame you into staying longer. But the doors open.
In the case of the Davidians, and I had never
heard of them, they proceeded the branch Davidians evidently, and
they had a leader that said the end of the

(35:45):
world is coming on this date. And that date came
and went, and a few people were like, I think
I'm out of here. They said no, no, no, it's
a new date. And then that date came and went,
and then more people were like, what kind of stinks
that dude die? I think? And his wife took over
and said, I have a new date. That date came

(36:06):
and went, and by that time there were just a
handful people and they're like, we're out of here. Yeah,
whatever knows about it. So you can leave in the
case of the Davidians. Um. But sometimes there are locked
doors and they don't let you out. Sometimes they are
also bullets too. In the case of Jonestown in Guiana,
a fascinating part of that story that a lot of

(36:28):
people don't know about. Yeah, um shootout. What was his name,
Congressman Leo Ryan. I think he came and led a
delegation to Jonestown to find out what was going on,
because some of his constituents were like, uh, our family
just moved to Guiana with the People's Temple and a
guy named Jim Jones, We're kind of concerned. So he
went to Guiana and apparently met with the the People's

(36:52):
Temple members and sixteen of them were like, I'm coming
back to California with you, and the some other members
of People's Temple followed them to the airport and opened
fire on them and wounded eleven and killed Congressman Ryan,
killed three reporters, one member, and Congressman Ryan. I thought

(37:12):
it was just Congressman Ryan. Really yeah, I killed five
people total. And that's pretty much what triggered. Jim Jones
was like, it's it's hitting the fan. Yeah, it's time
for let's get the flavor aid ready, Yes, And I'm
glad you said that we got killed in the brainwashing
we did. I will never ever forget it. Um kool aid.

(37:34):
It was not what they drank apparently flavor Aid is
a British knockoff and kool Aid, and they drank grape
flavor Aid and filled it with valium um finn again
and cyanide, and that did the trick. Yeah, you know,
I'll tell the audience here what I told everybody. The

(37:54):
emailed and said it's flavor aid. It's like, you know what, dude,
it doesn't matter what it really was. The Rusian is
don't drink the kool Aid, and that's just it's revisionist history.
But no one says don't drink the flavor Aid. Do
you want the Brits to get all the all the
attention say don't drink the flavor aid sometime in public
and to see what someone says, do you mean kool aid?
Tell them that they're the high man on the totem pole.

(38:17):
A boy, you just told them, Chuck, we're growing bitter
in our old age. So uh, all right, let's say
it's not as easy to leave as just getting up
and walking out. I would say it's probably somewhere between
jonestown and um just getting up and walking out. In

(38:38):
certain cases, there's something called d programming that you can
pay a lot of money to a service to go
in and kidnap your son or daughter. What you were
doing is wrong, the love your family. In the middle
of the night, they will drag them out of this,
uh wherever they are compound, Like it's a kidnapping like kidnap,
and there's been lawsuits because wonders it doesn't happen a

(39:00):
whole lot anymore. It's like a repo man but for people. Yeah,
they're repelling your your son or daughter. Right, it's not
always a son or daughter. I guess it could be
a friend or relative otherwise, you know, not not a kid.
But you typically think of like rich dad is sending
in someone to kidnap his little teenaged daughter. So, uh,

(39:22):
they will do that. They will drag them out, and
then they will begin a process of de programming, basically
by using ethical psychological techniques to combat the unethical ones
that were used. Well, what they what they do often
is give the the deep program e a crash course
in thought reform. Yeah, like this is what's happened to you, right,

(39:42):
and or this is how cults brainwatch people. Does any
of this sound familiar? Do you remember this like years
ago when you first went in and that's supposed to
kind of start to unlock this um, this desire to
not think any longer, and then that's followed by a
critical thing. King questions, right, yeah, you want it to do.
You want to encourage them to be independent with their

(40:04):
thinking and praise them a lot when they start having
their own original thoughts because they haven't had them for
so long, and then maybe even dance out the Little
Teddy Bear or from their bedroom, say look at this.
You remember a little bun Bun that you grew up
with and in Sheboygan, wouldn't you like to go back

(40:24):
with bun Bun? So yeah, they'll parade out of some
things from your past. Maybe that might trigger thoughts of
your former life that you might have loved even at
one point, and then all of a sudden you're like,
bing bang boom, I'm not a cult member anymore. Well,
that's deep programming. That's the hardcore version. Well yeah, and

(40:47):
at the end of it you're like, Okay, I'm good.
But there's also exit counseling, which is a little more common.
It's pretty much deep programming without the kidnapping. It's I
would imagine it's much more common these days, but it's
gotta be way harder because you have to make contact
with the person and if they're isolated, then then to
convince them to come out, and you, I would imagine,
have very brief periods of time where you have the

(41:09):
opportunity to talk to them alone and have even a
chance to to get them to come out on their own.
Then you kidnap, Well, you made a joke a second ago,
Josh when you said bing bang boom, they're out. We're
all good. Yeah, that's not the case. It's just like
any traumatic experience. Uh. Many times they will suffer psychologically
for years with depression, anxiety, paranoia, guilt rage. One psychological psychologicist,

(41:39):
it's a new line psychologist, said that he calls it
floating when you get out. Yeah, kind of alternating between
the former mind and the current mind. And it's very
in certain times, sad, very sad. It said. I imagine
spending ten years in a cult and then ultimately coming
to feel like you just wasted and lost years of

(42:00):
your life because if that, um, what was the psychological
where you just stop growing psychologically like that's that means
that you just spent ten years like not doing anything
and wasted years that's terrible it is. And then all
the years after who who, however long it takes afterwards,

(42:22):
if ever, if ever. Um, So as you can see,
cults are frequently destructive, I I want to say, and
I'm sure you'll agree with me. Not all cults are destructive.
You said before, Like, even in a destructive cult, some
people are like, this is exactly what I need. Tell
me what shoes to wear, tell me exactly how much
gruel to eat every days? Exactly? Um, I want to

(42:44):
go pick some Lima beans, right. But um, for the
most part, you, I guess you can understand why a
cult destructive cauld is called destructive cult. Now even if
they don't end in the mass suicide of nine members.
You know, Um, you want to talk about some notable
cult incidents. So we hit Heaven's Gate. We fit well.

(43:07):
The Branch Davidians, as most people know, ended in a
hail of gunfire and fire fire. They remember the image
of that tank to shooting flames out of it. Yeah, man,
we should do a podcast sometime. Ruby Ridge and the
Branch Davidians, you got it, two very dark spots of
the Clinton administration, And there was a common thread. An

(43:29):
FBI guy was involved in both of them that apparently
was a little trigger happy. Really yeah, I saw a
great documentary on it. Well, let's do it all right,
let's do it right now. Okay, Hey, did I mention
you the guy the Russian psycho ecopsychologist who was called
out to Waco because he had some um sound recording.

(43:51):
I told you about him, right, And that was supposed
to drive them out. Yeah, but if it went wrong,
they the FBI asked what would happen if the if
it went wrong, he said, they'll end up slitting each
other's throats. He was at Waco too. Did they do it?
They used it? No once. He told him that go
back to Russia. Yeah. Yeah. What else we talked about

(44:11):
s l A Manson family. Did we leave anything back?
Big out? We did? Man. We didn't talk about the
Order of the Solar Temple. I don't know much about them.
School me the Order of the Solar Temple. You've heard
the Knights Templar, so they were like a modern sect
based on them. In Switzerland and in Canada and UM.
I think fifty three members between the two countries were

(44:33):
found dead. UM set on fire like six hundred and
eighty years to the day after the last templar was
burned at the steak Um was the sun that the
sun set him on fire? It wasn't. They thought it
was a mass suicide. But when autopsies were done, they
found out that some of the people had like up
to eight bullet holes in their head, Some died from suffocation,

(44:56):
some died from overdose on narcotics, So as a murder suicide.
Some were suicides. But murder suicide burning, that's a big tragedy. Um.
There's also uh, the Ralians have you heard of them?
They are still around their UFO coult their doomsday cult.

(45:18):
But they're not UM destructive, like they're never going to
kill themselves. It's just not in their doctrine. But they
follow a well, they follow a UM leader named Rail
who is actually a French race car driver, and almost
all of them Ralians are like beautiful Frenchies, French and

(45:41):
French Canadian people. They have an outpost pretty close by
in Alabama. They have an amusement parker a theme park,
a UFO theme park, and what their whole thing is,
we're there. The day is coming very soon where we
are going to be visited by these other life forms
who are benevolent UM, and we need to build an

(46:03):
international space station to greet them. It has to have
a UM like a dining table this long they have
like specs like the indoor swimming pool has to be
this big up in space. Right, And they're having a
lot of trouble getting UM funding for this. You can imagine.
But they're kind of like a good time cult, not cult,

(46:23):
attractive French people and they made headlines. You've heard of
them for this. They made headlines years ago because um
they claimed to be the first to clone a human
baby for a Kentucky senator. Do you remember that? And
it turned out it was a fraud really but no,

(46:46):
I mean remember everybody's like, holy cow. They the language
they used in the press release made people think like,
oh wow, this is really something. But well, Josh, let's
just finished. Was saying that. We've said he a lot.
In regards to cult leaders, most of them have been men,
but oddly enough, many many years ago there were some
female cult leaders. I heard. Joanna Southcott was nineteenth century

(47:13):
British Christian sect. The south Candians were who followed her,
and she had a vision that she was going to
give birth to a Messiah. She died in eighteen fourteen
and they waited for days by her dead body for
her to give birth. Finally she started stinking and they said,
let's cut her open, see what's in there. There was
nothing in there, so they said, so the kid must

(47:34):
have been born in heaven spiritually. And some people believe
that Shiloh, who was to be this child, is actually
Prince William. Really I always expect that there's a little
something extra to him. There was someone named Annelie from Manchester.
She was a female cult leader. She was a Quaker
who rejected sex and started the Shakers, not the furniture movement,

(48:00):
but some people don't say they were a cult, but no,
the Shakers are responsible for the furniture as well. Okay, yeah,
well they did a heck of a job then, yeah,
I love Shaker stuff. The Shakers, they were an offshoot
of Quakers. Their big problem is, and it's it's mentioned
here that, um, they looked down on sex, like it's
pretty much prohibited. Ye how do you keep a cult going,

(48:23):
or any group going if you're not repopulated. So they're
the Shakers are on very shaky ground as it were,
as far as membership goes because they can't. Yeah, they
don't have to recruit outside member. There's very very few
of them now. And then Margaret Peter was in Germany
in eighteen twenty three and her cult was sort of
just her extended family, but they were all kind of nuts,

(48:45):
and she was convinced the devil lived in her loft
and the devil needed a sacrifice. One of her sisters
immediately hit herself on the head with a mallet and
then the rest of the family beat her to death.
The devil was still there, so Margaret said, hey, why
don't you crucify me and I'll be resurrected. So they
said sure, Well, they crucified her, beat her to death,

(49:07):
and she was not resurrected. In three days, Josh and
the police came and arrested them. All that's exactly right,
and I think that was the end of that cult. Ladies,
we always like to give you your due. Yeah, that
was Chuck. By the way, Chuck was like, what about
female cult members and did some research, So way to go,
chuckers Um. There are some excellent stuff in the at
the end of the article, some actually great information in

(49:29):
places you can go if you're if you have been
an occult, you are an occult, or you have loved
ones in a cult, and you should go visit some
of those sites. One is called Refocus, and I won't
read them all, but there there's some places you can
go to get help. Kidnaped that kid uh. If you
want to learn more about cults, um, you can type

(49:52):
that in. There's a very comprehensive article on the site.
Just type in se U l t S in the
handy search bar. How stuff works dot tom. And since
I said that, it means it's time for what listener mail?
Right as always as ever? Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa what?
Quick announcement. Okay, we are coming to south By Southwest, Josh,

(50:14):
I know, and uh yeah, in the fourth largest state
of the Union. That's right, Austin, Texas. That's not right,
but we're we're gonna do a live podcast and to attend,
you need an interactive badge. It's gonna be the DRISTC
Call Hotel at eleven am on Monday, March fourteen. Yeah,
and if you don't know how to spell drist call
d r I s k I l L. Yeah, it
looks better with an E, but it's like Old West

(50:36):
spelling of dristical. So we encourage you, if you have
a badge, to come on down and see us, and
they'll be a great podcast or at least a mediocre podcast, right,
followed by some Q and A. And really, you're not
gonna be out any money. You might be out an
hour of your life. That's about it. Yeah, yeah, And
there may be sandwiches we're not gonna be providing, but
there may be somebody with an extra sandwich there, so

(50:57):
that alone should get you down there. If you're at
south By Southwest, come check us out right, Okay, Okay,
back to it. This is from Tim. Tim has a
neat little thing that is not the cult as far
as I know. Um My, guys, I'm obsessed with making
things and giving them to people. I draw daily, though
I think making art is kind of pointless in a
day and age when people are hungry and living on
the streets. Feeding people is more important than making paintings,

(51:20):
amongst many other things. But I still find myself wanting
to draw, so I'm constantly trying to make excuses for
why it is socially acceptable to make art instead of
helping people but that is another tale. I decided to
start a little project in which I would encourage people
to give their sketch books away to other people who
they don't know, with the incentive being that I would
make them a drawing and send it to them. Unfortunately,

(51:43):
despite making flyers and internet distribution, my heart got crushed
when not a single person responded. He didn't get need
a feedback on this, so we're gonna help him out.
I want to create a different kind of currency, but
it seems like no one cares. Everyone just wants money
and it really stinks. So he started this thing, Tim did.
It's uh www dot send me anything dot WordPress dot com.

(52:09):
And I think the deal is if you say I
am an artist and I will give away my sketch
book to a stranger, then Tim will send you an
original drawing that's very awesome, all for free. So he's
doing a kind of a cool thing here. And he
says the pen is mightier than the sword and the
tongue is mightier than the blade. Tim l So Tim,

(52:30):
good luck at send me Anything dot WordPress dot com.
I hope you get some people swap an art soon. Seriously,
that is a great idea and we want to hear
your good ideas for um projects that will help make
humanity even slightly better. We definitely want to hear those ideas.
Or if you were in a cult and got out,

(52:50):
that's that's good stuff on even now. Okay, either one
of those, or if your cult had a good idea
to make humanity even better, we want to hear that too.
If you're still in a cult, say hi, direct us
big time too. Um. This is definitely an outsiders view
because neither Chuck nor I have been in a could
as far as we know. UM. So, if you are
an ex cult member, if you have an idea for
a project that will better humanity, or you're still in

(53:13):
a cult and you want to correct us, uh, send
us an email to Stuff podcast at how stuff works
dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
VI is it how stuff works dot com. To learn
more about the podcast, click on the podcast icon in
the upper right corner of our homepage. The How Stuff

(53:35):
Works iPhone app has a ride. Download it today on iTunes.
Brought to you by the Reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready, are you