Does Kin Selection Explain Altruism?

There's a curious puzzle unanswered by the theory of evolution: why do some animals give up their chance to reproduce to help others reproduce instead? For decades biologists have suggested family was the reason, but that has recently been challenged.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to you stuff you should know from House Stuff
Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Josh Clark. There's Charles w Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry, puzzling
us as always with their jibber jabber, Wait jars. That
was funny. Should we say what happened? No? No? I

(00:25):
used to be leieve it mysterious al right, like whether
Jerry exists or not? Oh, she exists. You know a
lot of people out there and not convinced. Yeah. Still
even though she's we've shown pictures of her with her
face blurred, could be a workaday actress. She's appeared at
scores of live events and met people in person, same

(00:45):
actress but with like a gig. And she even spoke
on our Guatemala episodes. That was Stanley Kubrick's doing. How
are you sir? Good? Good? I'm excited about this one.
This is Nieto. Are you a Kins selection? I thought
it was you know me, like any you bring up

(01:05):
the name Charles Darwin and you just see my face
light up. Yeah, so you know that? Um that How
Stuff Works trivia event that you and longer hosted. You
guys had some hard questions, but one that my team
got right. It was a sixth part question, yes, and
there was a couple of tough ones in there, but

(01:26):
it was Charles Darwin or Chuck D from Public Enemy
Charles D or Chuck D. And then we named off
five or six things. I think it was six, and
it was basically, who was it Charles D or Chuck D? Yeah, like,
who's the peskytarian? You don't know? Well we did. It
was Chuck D who married his first cousin, Charles Darwin.

(01:50):
That one I definitely knew, because I remember Darwin was
kind of anxious as he was learning about evolution and
natural selection in genetics that he had married his first cousin.
He started to get kind of worried about his kid. Yeah,
he said, should I marry her? And then he said
it was Jennifer Connelly. She's beautiful. Where did you pull

(02:10):
that one from? Well? She played Darwin's wife in the
Darwin movie. Oh, well that makes a lot more sense.
Had I known that, I would have been like, great reference. Sorry, man,
he's like, I gotta marry her? Did you see her?
And uh? Who played Darwin? Paul Bettanya, Well, he was
her husband already were they married. I don't know if
they are not anymore, but they were for a while. Okay,

(02:31):
whatever became of him, he was great and he's around good.
Nobody's treading the bowlds. Oh yeah, I'll but he is too.
It sounds like something do Uh. I didn't even get
to say that Jennifer Connelly movie. I was gonna say proof. Nah,
let's just move on. What was it? I can't think

(02:53):
of the name of it. The Darren Aronofsky. Uh oh,
Requiem for a Dream Yeah. Yeah, it's like I gotta
marry here. Did you see her in recrect for a
dream Man? That was a That was a crazy movie,
great movie, but not for the faint of heart. No, no,
so Chuck. We've got a whole evolution suite going on here,
and this contributes to evolution natural selection. We've covered Charles Darwin,

(03:17):
the man himself, that's right. Um, we've done evolved in
isolation to put together an extinction. Yes, bam, that's probably
all of them. But um, this one's kind of like
a nuanced version of it of the evolution suite, of
the idea of evolution, but it actually is a fulcrum

(03:39):
or lever something on which a buttress the the the
whole idea of evolution and natural selection and what drives
it or if it's even real kind of swings. It's
easy to overlook, but there's a real problem. Like Darwin
had all this great stuff laid out with his theory
of evolution by natural selection, and um, it basically goes

(04:02):
as everybody knows, a little something like this A one
and to do so, I wish we had a natural
selection song we could play boom uh. Well, it goes
like this. Animals need to reproduce for the species to survive,
and it's hard sometimes for little eggs to survive harsh
environments and seeds and things. So they make lots and

(04:24):
lots of them. That's right, that's part one. And they
make lots and lots of them because a lot of
them don't survive. Like you said, um, but a lot
of these things that try to reproduce don't have the
good genes, right, so they fail to reproduce. They've got
tough skins, not Levi's, so they're right, So the tough
skins tend to die out right. Instead, the levies continue

(04:50):
on because they've got the good genes. So therefore they
are more apt to survive and reproduce and be successful
than they are the tuskan counterparts. So what we have
there is called survival of the fittest. You are reproductively
fit if you are likely to go on and bear

(05:10):
fruit as it were. Yeah, baby fruit. Darwin realized early
on to the variation was a big key to all this. Um.
You take two sets of pigs and they have baby pigs,
They're not all going to be identical. Some of those
pigs will have little, seemingly insignificant details about themselves. Brown

(05:31):
spots maybe, And but it turns out that brown spots
drive the lady pigs wild. It might be that easy.
So this guy's mating left and right and has a
bunch of kids, so his brown spots make him reproductively fit.
That's right. What looks or not even looks like what
could be a random variation could really lead to the
survival of that pig and maybe an entire species. Yeah.

(05:55):
I've heard this really interesting UM article on Nautilus I
think recently, and it was basically the idea that the
human body is just a hackathon of Well, we need
to fix this problem, so let's come up with this
or they humans started standing up on two legs, so
we need to fix it with this um and but

(06:16):
if you stem back and look at it, the human bodies,
is this really cluji thing held together with like duct
tape and bubblegum right, um like a v W you
buck um and uh. The the author interviewed like I
think ten different biologists and said, you know, what's something
you would change about the uh, the human body to

(06:36):
improve it. That was basically just the hack. It was
pretty interesting. That's awesome. See if I can find it.
Is that going to be in your best things? I've
read this week post blog post. I think so maybe
it should be. And you read it while you were
working out on your Nautilus machine. Now I read it
on Nautilus website. Got you and they have a clever website.
It's and a U T I L dot us. Oh

(07:01):
see what they do? Yeah, so it's not a lie.
Dot us are not told dot us not till Yes. Okay,
so you talked about fitness. The more offspring you have,
the more fit you are as a parent and as
a mammal or animal or whatever. You've hit the nautilus
so often that you're just totally fit. If you've had

(07:23):
a bunch of kids. That's right, because uh, as we
all know, not all, not of your genetic material goes
into each one of your little babies. Because you you know,
you have sex with someone else, you gotta share, you
share compromise. So in order to increase the chances of
one of your little babies having all of your genetic material,

(07:45):
you need just need to more and more babies. It's amazing.
That's weird, um, because I always thought that the you're
the amount of genes that you pass on with set
like or whatever went into your kid, right, Well, yeah,
but you have sex, and of these genes goes in
you have sex again, another set of your genes might

(08:06):
get picked. I've never heard it put like that. That
makes sense, though. I always thought the more like the
drive to keep having kids and and reproduce was two
because you were going to have fifty percent of your
genes out there in the world no matter what. But
all those kids could like you know, bite the dust.
And so the more you have, the more insurance you

(08:26):
have that those go on. Never thought of it the
way you just but the upshot of all this and
by extension, the upshot of Darwin's entire theory of evolution
by natural selection driven by variation is that you any
any any trait that an organism has that improves its

(08:52):
capability to reproduce or its likelihood of reproducing, is going
to be selected for, and that's going to lead to
the evolution of the species. Right, And that basically the
whole point, this is the unspoken part, The whole point
of everything is to reproduce, to pass your genes along.
That was Richard dawkins contribution with the selfish gene. Right.

(09:14):
The problem is, and Darwin saw this while he was
coming up with his theory um was that there is
behavior found in nature that does the exact opposite of that,
where organisms choose it seems to live a life where
they don't reproduce and instead help others of their kind reproduce,

(09:37):
which is called biologically altruistic behavior. And it makes zero
sense whatsoever under um Darwin's theory of evolution. And it's
just been a puzzle and a challenge to the theory
ever since he first noticed that. Well, I think that's
a great place for a break, my friend, and we'll
talk about this weird thing after we get back. So

(10:16):
Darwin Um talked a lot about competition. That was one
of the big keys to his theory working is unfortunately,
in nature, it can't be like elementary school field day
where everyone gets a participant ribbon. Um. There's gonna be
winners and losers, and the winners will go on to
survive and the losers might not. But where this wrinkle

(10:37):
comes in is what you mentioned before the break, biological altruism. Um.
It's remarkable that there are, and we'll talk about some
of them, that there are species that don't even try
to reproduce. So yeah, so well there's members of certain species, right, yeah,
So a really good example is the b right, A

(10:58):
drone is a female and a female that I think,
and and some be species are totally sterile, so they
can't reproduce anyway. But even if some of them could,
they don't. Instead, they go out and collect honey, or
they collect the nectar they make honey, They choose the
pollen and spit it back up, and then do that

(11:19):
a bunch of times, and all of a sudden you
have honey, which, as everybody knows, is nothing but be
vomit um. They tend to the offspring the young, they
bring food to the queen, who is the only one
to reproduce. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. They serve the
queen because not only does that. So there's there's two

(11:42):
things that play here that make the whole thing weird. One,
if an individual organism is basically here to pass along
its genes, then why would any individual organism not attempt
to do that? Right? And Then secondly, and this is
the real mystery, how could these traits that um that

(12:04):
the organism is driven by to be helpful and altruistic
rather than be reproductive. How could that possibly be passed
on from one generation to the next If that organism
isn't passing that trait along, it's a big question mark. Man,
Well it was, and it's not proven. But in the

(12:27):
nineteen sixties there was a kid in school. It would
later go on to be a very famous evolutionary biologist,
but he was a graduate student in the sixties named
William Hamilton's. He said, you know what I got this idea.
It's called inclusive fitness or kin selection k I n
Jerry selection. Not like a kindall, but kin selection. Inclusive fitness. Basically, Uh,

(12:54):
here's what's going on here. It's not random when you
see in nature this altruistic behavior of a part of
a species, of a member of family helping. Most times
they're helping their family. Yeah, this is actually supported by
some studies. Very famously, it was supported by a study
of um. Well, the number of studies of Florida scrub jays,

(13:16):
which are pretty little blue birds, and some members of
the Florida scrub jays species UM don't mate when it
comes time to mate during mating season, right. Instead, they
help um gather food, They help defend nests and protect
the eggs. They helped build their like here, let me
build you a little sex room, brother, and you know,

(13:39):
I'm gonna put a tie on the hen nesto later
if you're tired. But you just go in there and
do your business. Hugs hugs brother deeply. He's like the
whole family's proud of. But I'm gonna go out here
and not have sex. I'm just gonna stay in guard
and and maybe listen. That's that's the scrub jays and exactly. Uh,

(14:02):
it's remarkable. So it doesn't make any sense, right, No,
it doesn't until you investigate it through the lens of
kin selection and so UM. This one study in particular
UM that followed scrub jays as they didn't mate and
instead carried out this altruistic helping behavior. They found that
of the seventy four relationships that were observed, forty eight

(14:26):
assisted their parents, gross uh sixteen helped their father again,
Grody uh seven assisted a brother, two assisted their mother,
and then one one out of all seventy four helped
the stranger. And you can imagine that bird was probably
just a little dim witted. Well, I was about to say,

(14:46):
I thought it was confused maybe, but like you're my brother, right,
or the researchers were confused and didn't realize that this
was their close kind. But the point is this altruistic behavior.
The study supports the idea that the organism, the animal,
the person whoever, is helping somebody related to them, and
therefore it does make sense an evolution because the person

(15:09):
is helping ensure that some of their genes, not necessarily
their specific genes they are passing down through reproduction, but
some of their genes through their direct blood relative. Um,
they're helping make sure that those get passed long and
then then altruism starts to make sense. It's amazing. Uh
you want to hear an ever evolutionary biologist joke about this? Yeah,

(15:32):
I would gladly die for two brothers or four cousins
or eight second cousins. That's that's pretty good. Yeah, that
makes sense. I read that and I thought that kind
of describes it perfectly. It's well, it's not very funny
because it's an evolutionary biology jokes, but it does describe it. Uh.
So this happened in the nineteen sixties, and like I said,

(15:53):
Hamilton's went on to write books and he actually came
up with math it, he says, proves this to be
the case. Yeah, because he used letters instead of numbers,
So you know, it's legit. It's actually a pretty smart
little equation. It's called Hamilton's rule. I like it. Do
you like it? Yeah? I mean it makes sense, it's distinct.

(16:15):
I can understand it. You can dance to it. I'm right,
it's got a good beat. I'm not threatened by it.
So I like it. All right, Well, should we talk
about it? I know it's a little uh esoteric to
talk about a math formula. Uh is easier looked at? Well,
just close your eyes, everybody and imagine this. Okay, uh, well,

(16:35):
in math terms, what we're talking about, it's an individual's
relative genetic representation in the gene pool in the next
in the following generation. So if you literally look at it,
it's be the letter B greater than the letter C.
Over are right, So in this case, the B is
greater than So that's the benefit, which I guess would

(16:57):
be the likelihood that their gene were passed down. Okay,
that would be the benefit. So the benefit is greater
than the cost incurred by the person or the organism
not reproducing, divided by the relationship. Right, So the closer
you are, the likelier it is that you're going to

(17:18):
enjoy a benefit over the cost. Yeah, there was. There's
a PhD uh, a PhD um online named Bjorn b Ms.
It was much smarter than me because I had a
little trouble wrapping my brain around around how this math
proves it um and and we'll we'll get into the
alternative theory here in a minute, proves it over the
alternative theory of group success um. And he basically said

(17:43):
the altruistics the altruist act must be at least double
the receiver's fitness in order for that altruist to gain
representation in the next generation. Yeah, and and and it
makes sense. So here's how it makes sense. If you,
um are going to have two kids. Um, if you

(18:05):
did reproduce and you were going to have two kids,
but instead of having those two kids, you helped your
brother and he was able to have three. There you go. Yeah,
they I saw. So I saw Hamilton's rule expressed differently
somewhere else, and it made it easier for me to understand.
Let's hear your version RB minus C is greater than zero.

(18:26):
So if the relationship coefficient um times the benefit minus
the cost is greater than zero, then go for it,
says nature. Then it makes sense altruistically. All right, Well,
let's my math brain hurts. So let's take a break.
And uh, we even bragged about how we got that.
I sort of get it. We'll take a break and

(18:47):
talk more about some more animals who do this and
the idea of group selection. All right, So we mentioned

(19:09):
the scrub J, the scrubby little scrub J who likes
to build sex dungeons or his family. Uh. We talked
about bees. They are also ants and wasps and other insects.
Who served the queen. Um these workers. It's sort of
like insects socialism, almost working side by side for the

(19:33):
benefit of the group. Forgetting my own yeah, forget my
own reproduction. I want the colony to survive, and this
is my job, and so I'm gonna do it well. Um.
Another example is, uh, some animals have a call. They
will signal out, hey, there's an intruder coming family toward
the house. And I might be giving up my own

(19:54):
life by drawing attention to myself, but I'm still going
to do that now. I actually did see an explain
for that that doesn't have to do with actual altruism
merging selection them. Among mere cats, they have sentinels. Anytime
a gang of mere cats is out hunting, one of
them is just standing up, looking very cute in all directions,

(20:15):
and when they see danger, they call out to a
warning to the rest of the group. But um, this
one study that included like two thousand hours of of
UM watching and observing these mere cats found that not
one sentinel was killed during this time. And as a
matter of fact, they were the ones that get away

(20:35):
first because they're the ones watching, so they see first
and then they call but it's actually that call is
not much of a cost to the individual. Well, that's
a mere cat. They're super smart. What about the dumb squirrel?
I don't know. I mean maybe, although mere cats do
very famously engage in altruistic behavior themselves. Like mere cat
pups can't feed themselves, but apparently they can squeal and

(20:58):
beg and um. Most of the time they will be fed,
but the mere cat feeding them is not necessarily and
in most cases isn't their biological parents. It's somebody else.
And mere cats definitely have that whole village to raise
a child thing going on for sure. Um, And it
makes a lot of sense through kin selection and not
another way. It's interesting. It's hard not to think of

(21:20):
politics when you're reading this stuff in the animal world.
You know, what's a good model for It depends on
what you think. Well, I mean, it's a good model
to understand it, I should say, yeah, I saw. I
had a this funny. I was driving home from the
grocery store the other day and there was a major intersection,
uh near my house where the traffic lights were out,

(21:42):
like four four away intersection and each one had their
own turn lane, and it was rush hour, and I
just laughed looking around like the American political system was
entirely represented. Oh yeah, man. Some people just barreled through,
didn't care. Some people, uh just wouldn't go. They were
just like frozen and fear. Some people are like no

(22:03):
you go, well, no you go? Will you go? And
then someone behind one Honker, was like all right, I'll go,
And you could just really kind of see everything, just
like it really opened my eyes. And I think, I
don't know what you would call me, because I'm the
by the book guy. I'm like, blinking yellow doesn't mean stop,
it means proceeds slowly, cautiously. But one was red and

(22:25):
one is yellow. Everybody was stopping because it was just
so crowded, exactly. Yeah. And there's definitely people who do
see it the way you do and then go ahead
and do that. But it does seem like humans have
recently decided like, no, if it's red, blinking red and
blinking yellow, the people with the yellow are going to
stop eventually and let the people with the red go
altruistic act. Very interesting, all right, So let's uh we

(22:50):
teased group uh multi level selection or group selection. This
is something Darwin talked a little bit about in the
descentive man, but he is main focus was on the individual,
but he dabbled in it. Uh, he dabbled in group play.
But this is a theory where there are these altruistic traits.

(23:11):
No one's denying that. We see it all over the
animal kingdom. But it's not necessarily toward a family. It's
just for the good of the whole group. Yeah. So
the the whole idea of kin selection, apparently UM has
been challenged, although not widely challenged UM by the idea
that if you really look at some species, the species
that are closely related, some of them don't do anything altruistically,

(23:36):
and then others that do engage in altruism don't necessarily
do it for close relations UM. So if that's the case,
then the whole idea of kin selection is challenged because
the basis of kin selection is that these are UM
organisms helping to pass on some of their related traits
that their relatives are passing along through reproduction. And if

(23:58):
that's not the case, then that's that's the question. Mark returns. Well, yeah,
and then there's the whole thing that there are in
in groups of animals, some are related, some aren't. So
it's hard to tell where one where group behavior stops
and family behavior begins. So you have a lot of
biologists saying this is just sort of semantical. We shouldn't
be arguing about this. It's sort of the same their

(24:22):
equivalent basically, helping the family is helping the group. Right.
But then a few years back, very famous um aunt
man EO. Wilson, who actually awesome guy, Like as far
as scientists go, this guy should have statues erected to him.
He's a very brave scientist. He's known as the father
of sociobiology. Right. Um. He also, when he was a teenager,

(24:44):
was the first to observe and um study fire ants
when they just happened to be transported to South America
as ballot or from South America to New Orleans as
ballast in a ship. He happened to notice him for
the first time fire ants in the Southeast red ants.
He was there when they when they came about, and
he ended up they didn't originate here, No, they were

(25:06):
brought as like as in scoops of dirt from South
America and they just took over. But he was a
teenager and he was studying him. So he's a really
great scientist, but he um has uh attracted the ire
of his fellow scientists by saying Kin selections bunk. Yeah,
he reversed his position though, right. Yeah, he was an

(25:26):
early and longtime champion of of Kin's selection and he
he apparently changed his way of thinking and now says
it's group selection instead. Yeah. And Richard Dawkins, we mentioned
him earlier, he's uh. He fired back at E. O.
Wilson was basically, you know what, dude, you're wrong. I
know you wrote a book about it. But he said,
there are quote pervasive theoretical errors in your books are

(25:49):
and Wilson's Is he still alive? I think he has.
Dawkins isn't Wilson's old though, because eighty five when in
two thousand and eleven, so he'd be no, you know, right,
he maybe alive. I'm not sure if he's not or
if he is. Well, Dawkins is. Dawkins is very famous
for his freeloader effect too, Yeah, as part of the
selfish gene. And that's the problem. I think that's one

(26:11):
of the reasons why E. O. Wilson has attracted so
much iger from the scientific community because a lot of
scientists built their careers on things like Kin's selection and
explaining it. Um. And they were doing so following in
the wake of E. O. Wilson, who was a huge
prostalytizer for it, and then all of a sudden, this

(26:33):
prophet like turns around on him towards the end of
his life and after his own career, you know, um,
and he a lot of people were ticked off by it,
But it makes sense the group selection doesn't. Basically, it's saying,
like you said, a lot of people are like, this
is just semantics, we shouldn't be arguing about it. But
group selection says it's not the relatives that these organisms

(26:55):
are looking out for. It's their group, it's their species.
They're making sure their species continue along, and that's enough
for an altruistic act to exist. Yeah. And so, like
I said, Um, with all these other scientists that were
upset by this, Dawkins is included. And one reason Dawkins
would be upset about that is because he wrote the

(27:15):
Selfish gene, which helps explain kin selection. Yeah. Uh and
altruism and uh yeah. He was taking shots at E. O.
Wilson and the press over the whole thing. Yeah, and
his freeloader effect, which I mentioned a few minutes ago,
was basically he said, you know what um you get,
you call it a mutant freeloader. One of these freeloaders

(27:35):
can take it down, take down this altruistic society or
species because they're just lazing about and they have more
time to have sex and reproduce, and they can reproduce faster.
So everyone else is out there working for everybody altruistically.
His freeloaders just having sex and having babies. So that's
gonna be the gene that gets carried down the most. Which, yeah,

(27:58):
I guess that supports can selection. I don't know. I'm
not sure either. I don't have to read the selfish
gene and find out. Yeah, I just thought it was interesting.
Yeah I do too. But then also chuck um with
the whole idea as well of whether kin selection or
group selection explains anything. If you are helping somebody, If
an organism helps UH related or just a group organism reproduce,

(28:25):
and that organism who gave up reproducing was going to
have two kids but only helps that other organism have one,
then isn't that a net loss for the species or
the family. Well, yeah, but I think that's what that
math formula was aught about all about, is as it
has to be double or else it's not gonna keep happening.
I got so. I wonder then if there's been study

(28:46):
that shows, yes, it's typically double. I think that's what
he said. The math proved crazy stuff, biologists going nuts
on one another and we're just sitting on the sidelines,
and even pop coin talking about it. If you want
to know more about sociobiology and other stuff like that,

(29:06):
including kin selection or group selection, you could type in
kin k I N into the search part how stuff
works dot com and it will bring up a pretty
interesting article. Since I said, Ken, it's time for listener mail,
I'm gonna call this companion to the previous listener Maile
Finland rules, and I'm gonna call this Sweden rules. Starting

(29:29):
some static on more crazy Scandinavians. Hey, guys, a long
time listener, just finish with the dark money and want
to give me some insight about our socialist paradise of Sweden. Yes,
we do pay quite a bit of tax. A regular
Joe pays about of his or her income as tax.
If you earn more, you pay more tax. There's also

(29:50):
a VAT tax and everything between six percent on food
to on everything else. So yes, we never stopped paying
the man. So what do we get, Well, we're guaranteed healthcare.
There's a small fee about ten dollars for a medical situation,
but after that it's all free X rays, cancer treatments,
it's all free. Also, you can, if you have enough
visits to the hospital. I guess you get a punch card.

(30:14):
You get a free card, which means you don't even
have to pay that ten dollars or pay for medicine.
Sweet deal, he says. Uh, school is naturally totally free.
We actually even get a salary for attending university about
three hundred dollars a month is a stipend, all for free.
We can also take out a student loan with very
affordable payment plans that don't kick in until after you graduated.

(30:34):
Uh makes it common. Uh, that makes it so it's
common for all people of all ages to go to university.
And lastly, we have kids. When you have kids, the
parents can take out four hundred and eighty days of
paid to pattorney leave. Oh yeah, the US is so
far behind other industrialized nation. Yeah, they're like two weeks
and then good luck, get back to work, and we

(30:55):
need you responding to emails the whole time too. Uh
if they must say, our company had a more generously
than that, So I'm talking about us even for dad's Yeah, um,
if they take an equal amount, they get a bonus payment. Um.
After that, there's a system of kindergartens that takes care
of the kids until they reach school age. Again free.

(31:16):
We do have some problems, of course. A lot of
the health care has been privatized in recent years, which
hasn't been all great. Also, there's a movement of xenophobia
sweeping the nation, fueled by the terrible refuge refugee situation
in Europe. The third largest political party has its roots
and far right, anti democratic, even Nazi movements, is what
he says. That's really surprising because usually they point to

(31:39):
the rise of things like that as the result of
economic woes. Yeah, it doesn't sound like Sweden has too
many economic woes, so I mean, what accounts for that?
I don't know. Follow up, he says, on the whole,
it's great place to live. Thanks for the show. Entertainment
at its very fineness, and that is from a gurn

(32:00):
Dextrom great name, g B. He said. If I can
pronounce his name, I get a prize. Canna send you
as the film because you got it right. That'd be great.
Thanks Garen, I'd like your other film. If you want
to get in touch with us, you can tweet to

(32:21):
us at s Y s K podcast. You can join
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You can send us an email to stuff podcast the house.
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