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June 9, 2020 58 min
In yet another testament to how amazingly great the 70s were, in 1975 the US started a program that tried to harness the powers of clairvoyance to remotely spy on the Soviet Union. Since clairvoyance doesn’t seem to exist, it wasn’t super successful. Learn more about your ad-choices at
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Episode Transcription

The text below is machine transcribed.

Everybody it's Josh and Chuck Your Friends, and we are here to tell you about our upcoming book. That's coming out this fallow, the first ever stuff. You should know book Chuck, THAT'S RIGHT! What's the cool super cool title we came up with it's stuff. You should know colon an incomplete compendium of mostly interesting things. That's right and it's coming along.

So great we're super excited you guys. The illustrations are amazing and there's the look of the book. It's all just it's exactly what we hoped it would be, and we cannot wait for you to get your hands on it. Yes, we can't, and you don't have to wait actually well. You do have to wait, but you don't have to wait to order.

You can go preorder the book right now everywhere you get books and you will eventually get a special gift for preordering which we're working on right now. That's right so check it out soon coming this fall welcome to Stuff You Should Know a production of bi, heart radios, hove, stuff works, hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, there's Charles W Chuck Brian over there Jerry's here floating around the office somewhere, but she's. Here everybody is all right. Yes, Jerry is here in the flesh.

She does exist, she's breal. She also is clothed, not just flesh, that's right and because the three of us are hanging out even on the internets, it's stuff, you shoul, know, yeah, it's good to see her her hair's long he's like a Hippi. Now I mean long for Jerry is not very long, but right, it's swoopier than usual and looks quite nice.

That's great Maan shows she care. She's staying home, stay home, save lives, cerry yeah, that's right!

You know what else may have saved lives, Chuck Project, Stargate Project, Star Gate.

Do you know when why I hedged and said that it may have saved lives? Sure?

Why? Well I mean you tell your version, but I mean because we don't even know if this stuff's real or not yeah. I was going to say that I said it may have saved lives because it totally didn't save any lives. As far as we know E, it's a bunch of made up gobblly Cook and CI Boondogel and US military Boondogel from the to the S, but some fun anicdotal story, though it is, it is like it's one of the more interesting chapters in CA, history and CA. History is awfully interesting. It has a lot of interesting horrific chapters.

This one's, not horrific. I think that's one of the big differences of it is it's just interesting, there's not a lot of horror to it.

I know the menusteric goats by our pel John Ronson, really kind of devalls into horror toward the end of it when he gets an MK ultra, but this is separate from ankmk ultra. It came from the same mindset for sure this idea that there are powers to the mind that could consideably be unlocked to do ill or good or neutral stuff. Who knows, but this one it was fairly benigin. As far as CIA projects go, don't you think yeah and believe it or not. I never saw that movie.

It was okay.

That's why it didn't. I think I mean it had everything I love in a movie which is Jeff Bridges and George Cloney and John Malcovich right yeah, but I'm funny spots in it too for sure yeah.

I don't know why. Tha One got past me. I think I've read teppid reviews and I just kind of was like yeah youve watched it. You would not think that you would just you would not want the two hours of your life back, but you wouldn't just be like I'm going to dedicate my life to making sure everybody sees this movie. It wouldn't be like that. Okay - and I haven't read the book - Sorry John, if you even listen to us anymore but like I'm quite sure from what I understand the book is - Is Vastly Superior to the movie, which, when does that ever happen, sure if John Ronson's hands were involved his brain, then I'm sure it was better yeah love that guy yeah he's a good guy, doesn't like to wear shoes for people who might not have seen him. Here's another fun fact that you probably don't know he was on one of the first editions of movie crush and he sits.

He swears that he sits on the very front row far left seat, that's torture, it's torture, it was so weird!

No! I know I heard that episode.

His movie was Annie Right.

No, not true.

What was it do you remember? It was let the right one in Oh man, that's a great movie. Yeah sure is, and you you know if you ever go to a movietheater in New York - and you see some guy frontes with no shoes, then go tap them on the shoulder and ask for his autograph Yep.

Okay. So we're talking project, Star Gate, which was the general code name for the secret project that was declassified around twothousand. I think, which is it's very telling that it was declassified in two thousand, because the project was finally canceled, ine thousand nine hundred and ninety five.

Normally, when the CA connects a project, especially if that project yields valuable stuff yeah, they don't declassify it in just five years. It takes decades before that stuff starts to trickle out, but with Project Star Gate.

They said here you go, here's everything we o everywont a bone. This is gn GE, yeah, it's great reading, but this this project ran from officially I belie one thousand nine hundred and seventy five one thousand nine hundred and ninety five and I had a different couple of different names and it got passed along from different different agencies yeah. But the whole thing started even back before the CAA got involved and from what I saw there was a woman Soviet woman named Newnel Kulagnia, who was on TV in the Soviet Union and she was demonstrating her telacenesis and apparently some defense intelligence analyst saw this TV show and said: Hey. I think this.

The Soviets might have some sort of mind weapon that we might want to look at and it's scared the bid Jesus out of the United States and they got busy trying their own hand, starting with the USS Nautilus, the first submarine to make it to the North Pole yeah. I think what's so funny about the early history of this is that the Russians started doing it because they thought we were doing it and we started doing it because we thought they were doing it and I don't know if either one of US technically were officially doing it.

No, no so yeah there, the the woman on TV did not necessarily mean the Soviets had some sort of program, but it was that whole goofy, Col war thing whereit's like if, if there's even the slightest possibility at the Russians are up to something, we've got to do that to and then do it better and they had the exact same mentality. So there was a constant arms race for everything, including ESP and and what well find out was called remote viewing yeah, I mean that's kind of the deal. I guess we should tell everyone what this means.

It's sort of like a an addition of Carnek, the magnificent from the Johnny Carson Show, at least this is how they trained and well get into that specifically, but it was hey.

You have a gift, maybe we're going to test you to see but sit in this room and tell us if you can locate whatever a missile base in the Soviet Union or a hostage in the Middle East or just whatever they needed to know that they didn't know they're like just sit here quietly and think it into reality, and that was sort of the basis of the program was. It was a trying to use sigh PSI which we've talked about before yeah to our political and I guess military advantage, yeah yeah, so I mean in that respect. It was really again very benigin. They weren't trying to explode somebody's head, although there were reports of programs like that, but with project Stargate, specifically, it was just people trying to come up with descriptions of secret places or, like you said, the location of certain people, just kind of astrally projecting is another way to put it.

Clair voyance is another way to put it, but just kind of not just reading somebody else's mind, but actually traveling somewhere else in the world and connecting into a person or a thing or a place and getting that information remotely through means other than the normal senses.

That's why another reason or that's? Why reason another name for remote viewing, which is what it came to be called, is anomalous cognition, which is you've, got this information you getting this this info, that Youd normally get from like your ears or your eyes, your tongue, or something like that, but you're getting it just into your mind, Tongu sure, Hey, go! Look! That thing. Tell me what you take dome see if you can figure out the secret code word get into that base by licking to keep, but the I mean you know: You're, not you're, getting it from not just your censory perception. It's an extra sensory persenng right. Is that what that means?

That's what that means right. So that's the whole jam with this is that the CIA and then the Soviets had their own thing going on too we're saying like let's do this: Let's use this potential capability to to see if it works and if it does work, let's use it together, intelligence without having to go anywhere without having to spend virtually any money on this. Just like you said, put him in a room, maybe with some salteens and some grape coolasur. Let Hem Relax and figure it out yeah. So in seventy two is when the DIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency, first got wind of the Soviets potentially doing this for real and the CIA said all right. You know a we're going to start funding these private research firms to see if this is possible and seventy three.

This started happening at the Sri International in California, which stood originally for Stanford Research Institute, but they weren't a part of Stanford at the time, and there was a guy there named Doctor Russell Targ, who was one of the researchers and he wrote a book called Mine Race, which great title for something like this sure, and he had some like early examples of sessions that he thought sounded promising. At least right.

I was going to say: I'm not sure how he got I into it, though, but he I don't know if he was already into it and then the dia got into it or started funding him or something like that, but from yeah from what I can tell Hou's the earliest one I bet he was into it, but not for a you, know, sbaosh type purposes or anything like that.

No, no! I think it was just kind of like this early. You know, beginning of the new age movement. Thata was like on the the leaning edge of that whole thing.

So one thousand nine hundred and seventy six there was this experiment that he championed is like hey look. This could work everyone.

There was a remote vewoer, someone and the offices in California there, Sri and Dr Targ was in New York City and no one knew anything about where he was supposedly.

I think we're going to say supposedly a lot in this podcast, oh yeah, and they said all right.

Where am I and he said? Well, let me see Du d DTADO and my brain I'm seeing something I'm seeing a cemint depression. Yes, it's almost like a dry fountain. Yes, there's a submit post in the middle and there are pigeons flying around.

Oh, my God, Dr Targ said Hel, I'm in Washington Square Park and the Fountain is empty. Yeah Band and Chook, there's pigeons pooping everywhere, because it's New York, yes, and so like with this.

This apparently successful remote viewing session. Dr Targ was able to get funding from the DIA at first and that's what really kind of kicked off pretty amazing. This whole study that one I think came through in seventy six, but it certainly kept is funding going, but he had he had anecdotal data from remote viewing sessions.

Previous to this, that really kind of kick things off, and so the CIIS like. Well, I mean if this guy can sit there and and figure out that this guy is in Washington Square Park just with his mind's eye.

You know without linking anything right, no Liki at all. Certainly no pigeons are being liked here that, like like, we could probably put that to good use having him think about Soviet stuff, and we can steal their secrets that way, that's right and in one thousand nine hundred and seventy six, we had a president elect and Jimmy Carter, who you know, asked a couple of questions around the the office and he got in touch with Yury Geller.

The famous Eury Geller he's a great mentalist. If you haven't, we've talked about him plenty of times, I feel like yeah, but I really want to do just an ougto show on him he's pretty great.

Did you know that he ended up getting very rich by DOWZING FOR OIL COMPANIES? Oh really, can you believe that I can?

I can't do because I think oil companies will pay anybody anything if they think it will leave t t oil. You know where the OI is you get some oil man give me some oil, so Carter said he had a private meeting with them and he kind of asked about what was going on and Geller said. You know these Russians they school or they screen school kids and see. If anyone has particular talents like paranormal power talents and they send them to special places to be trained and Carter said well, maybe we should look into this in oe thousand nine hundred and seventy seven now and they didn't find any evidence of that kind of thing.

But by this point the chicken was out of the coup, I think, and they were going to spend a little bit of money to kind of pursue this.

Yes, I think the only evidence that that little line that youry Geller gave to Jimmy Carter was that Eurye Geller had seen escaped a witch mountain year B.

I mean that's. The problem with all this is like bs begets more BS, so youry Geller had a meeting with Carter started talking out of his a and next thing. You know the United States is funding an study to find out whether it's true it's like come on yeah I like I have to I'm going to just fess up here.

I was very bugged, the entire time I was researching this particular one is like crop circles all over again yeah, but more fun than crap circles. I think it was more fun, but you know what kind of suck the fun out of it for me, I'll just go ahead and say it now. I was going to save it for the end, but I read something somewhere that really kind of drove it home that the problem with like this kind of stuff is that if you, if you let it really kind of get a foothold or get started, it paves the way for the kind of thinking that just doubt, science yeah, and that that doubts, expertise and then I's like no. No don't you know like people can bend spoons. You don't need to like you know you, don't you don't have to believe in science. This stuff happens is real, it's no El right exactly and then all of a sudden you have people believing anything that they hear. Yeah, that's true, that's the problem with it and it really bugged me especially on today of all days. You know yeah, of course: okay, so Arund, oe thousand nine hundred and seventy eight - and we don't know all this stuff for sure, because a lot of the stuff is still well. I don't know if it's still top secret, but the timelines aren't like you know. We don't know specific dates, but around seventy eight, the CIA stopped funding this and the army said: Hey, we'll, take over no prob bunch of money. We don't know what to do with yeah and how about a cool army code name, we'll call it project grill flame yeah. One word, don't know why that's weird! Well, I think that's the point of a project name is meant to kind of baffle you.

I think some of them are kind of cool and relatable to the thing thoug.

But to me it's like: Well, you don't want any outside Fi wer project is about. You know.

An that's true. PLOU share play: Okay, you're right. That was a really good one you're right so project grill flame from the army was based in Maryland at Fort Meed, and they had remote viewers or people who claim to be remote viewers or show talent as remote viewers in barracks, and they would do the Carnet croutine. They would hand them and envelope and said what's inside and that was kind of the extent of their testing at first yeah.

They would well they were allowed to open the envelope. I'm sure they would just once a whis, a joke, put it to their forehead right, but they would give them they would give them a call like an envelip with maybe a somebody's picture.

Maybe a note card that has latitude and longitude typed on it, maybe somebody's name that was it and they were told to think about that latitude and logitude or told the to concentrate on that person's picture or think about their name, and they wanted all the information that came, and so when it was latitude mongitude typically, you would know, like you were supposed to be viewing remotely a like a site or some sort of secret base or some sort of weapon or satellite dish or rate artish, or something like that, and if it was a person you know who knows, maybe they were a lost person and some of these people some of these remote viewing subjects would would say like. I need a little more info or something like that, and then it would kind of get them going and then they would write down what their impressions were. They would maybe dictateit they would draw it.

Maybe they would do all three and then after twenty minutes, thirty minutes, however long they dedicated to it, they would stop and all of their info would be taken away and then analyzed analyzed by a Defense Intelligence. Analyst, CIA analyst, an NSA analyst who knows somebody who's job was going through intelligence that was given to them by spies and satellites and all that would every once n a while get a package slip to them: Bi tw, Housan, nine hundre, nd, eventy fie, one thousand nine hundred N. ninety five that somebody had literally pulled out of thin air and put down in words and hear you go see if this this holds up or helps you in any way in figuring out.

What's in that mountain in the eurals yeah, so there was a guy named Joseph mcmonigal and he was he worked as a.

He was a recruit for Grill flame and he workd into the S, and he has some pretty good stories and there's a lot of good stories in here and is this stuff? True is the thing no like it was frustrating you think, thes stuff is all made up.

I T here's te think for every one of his stories. I went and tried to cross form fors with with dclassified CAA documents.

I couldn't find anything like all of the guys stories are anecdotal, Rigt, here's the problem they get reported, not necessarily, as fact, but they get reported in, like you know, an actual profile of the guy in the Washington Post, righose, wake or somewhere on this podcast and then all of a sudden right and then all of a sudden. When somebody crossed references, some weird thing: they read in some fringy book it pops up in a Washington Post article to ight. That's true, yeah, it's true! It's just bad reporting. That is, that is continuing this to go on. But as far as I know, I could not find any corroboration from any declassified documents for any of his stories.

So one of his examples, one thousand nine hunred and senty nine. He said that he was, he could see where Skylab, the very famous satellite in Nien s was going to crash eleven months before so this is also precognition right, which is another part of Si, and one thousand nine hundred and eighty one and supposedly that was correct in one housand, nine hundred and ighty one. He also got another tip, a mental hot tip that there was a hostage brigatior General James Dozier that was being held in.

I don't know if it's Padua or Padua, Italy is Padua Pedua, neither one I think it is Pedua and supposedly the tip arrived in Italy and the day that he was released in that very town yeah.

What else? What about the the KGB agent, this one's pretty great? So there is a KGB agent in South Africa that the CIA had been watching in the in I e n thousand nine hundred and eighty, and they couldn't figure out how he was contacting his KGB handlers. Yeah back in mother, Russia, and I guess mcgonigal or mcmonical, was focused on a calculator. He saw that this guy really was obsessed with his calculator and it turns out when the CIA looked at his calculator. They figured out. It was a short wave radio yeah and also just check the guys calculator sure like check out the electronics that he has. He has a cigarette lighter and a calculator we looked TA. The cigarette lighter found nothing we just gave up after that yeah we looked at the calculator and held it upside down. It just said: boobless wher was one of those remember the professor ones when that the the mortar cap and all that, no, what are you talking? Ou You don't? There was one that had a drawing of like an old, wise man with a graduation cap on and it was a pretty famous like s calculaor for kids.

Oh, oh, you mean the calculator itself yeah.

No, I think you know what you're talking about. I thought you meant some weird trick where you type in numbers and turn it upside down. It says o when it looks like a guy. Oh I see Iwas like that's pretty impressive. We got right. You're, like I can just type BOOBS, so in eighty five, the dia took control of this program. I guess took it back from the army, it seems like nobody wanted it like every few years. They would just be like who wants to take this over now, but the thing is it kept getting funding and I e Fon what I read either Targ or Edwin may who comes in later, as the director of this program like they said it was year to year funding, but it kept getting funding every year for twenty years. What I would ink. I would think too, that, like once it went from one agenc to another.

Maybe it would survive once, but it survived all these transitions yeah. So they take it back in eighty five and started funding Sri again international there back on the scene and then another contractor private contractor came on called Science Applications International Corporation also in California, and this is where they name it, stargate in one thousand nine hundred and ninety one right and it had to be after the movie right.

I don't think so. Man, I think the movie came out a few years after that. Really I'm going to look that's easy enough to check.

Let's find it the whole time I was wondering about that, and that was the name Frm, one thousand nine hundred and ninety one till it's end, one thousand nine hundred and ninety five and Li'm. Sorry, not in one thousand nine hundred and Ne One thousand nine hundred and inety five is when the CIA took a backover right and then the CIA finally said you know what we're just we're not sure about this anymore, we're just gonna we're's, going to defund this thing and let it go away again. This is Tosand, nine hndred and ninety five and five years later they declassified.

As far as we know, everything that had anything to do with it.

I think some of the people like mcmoniugal, who were involved, are saying no there's still plenty of classified stuff. You guys don't know about that, really proves everything right. There dues not sor ne the good stuff yeah, but I read this.

I read, I guess a transcript of a skeptoid or buddy Brian Dunning's podcast ye who we went.

We had a fla more with over whether or not it could reign frogs.

Did we yeah? We did he well. He tried to start what I just ignored him, but it was this.

This is when we had the Kennet rain. Frogs episode know, but that was years ago. Wasn't it yeah?

Okay, have a long long memory. I can hold a grudge, but anyway in skepp tod. He was basically saying like the very fact that, like all these people are allowed, who were verifiably in this program run by the CIA for twenty years. The fact that they're allowed to walk around and talk about this and haven't been like, haven't disappeared.

It just lends further credence to the idea that there was nothing that came of this right because they would all just be vanished.

Kindo. I think the CAA is not above that kind of thing.

Well, at any rate, the CIA said it's not worth this money that we're spending.

So, let's just get a very you know the typical thing: Let's get a third party report, matal solve it all in one thousand, nine hundred and ninety five, the American Institutes for research, published an evaluation of remote, viewing coon research and applications and said you know what this is pretty compelling stuff, but we can't use it for intelligence because you note to the word intelligence zing and they shut it down the shut it down in one thousand nine hundred and ninety five. They did twenty years twenty million dollars looking for everything from new Soviet submarine designs to lost gud missiles, to people being held by foreign kidnappers, all of it just down the down the toilet, that's right and in the old days this would be the end of the episode.

But in today's stuff you should know it's our first message break that might be a record chuck a thirty minute.

First Act: Twenty Five!

Oh Yeah! That's right! I was looking. We started a little late after we started recording twenty five that that I don't think, that's the record, all right! So should we keep talking about project Stargak, just because it's fun yeah, let's so yeah and I don't mean like I'm not trying to Poopoo like a people's imagination. I've got the same thing. I love the same stuff and just mine eyes have been opene and they can ever be closed again to Dou tot say mine, Eyes, yes and the game, oh goodness, so, with with stargate right thethe. Whole basis of this was that it was allowed to continue on for twenty years, because the people involved were very much impressed with what they saw yes and what they saw. kind of went a little bit like this, like the earliest test. I think the ones that Russell Targ was doing.

We're basically like tell me about some Soviet submarine floating around somewhere in the world. Let's see what you can do, just really free Lucy, goosy, Hippi, stuff right and then a guy named Dr Edwin may came along and he took over an I tan, one thousand nine hundred and eighty five, but he'd been working on the project, starting at the stanfor research insttitute beginning in back in thousand ninehndred and seventy five, and so he was on this project. I believe for the full twenty years in one capacity or another and when he took over, they weren't even paying him for the last ten.

No, he was just hanging around uhuh living off of Salteen's ind, great couis right with his red stapler, but he yeah kind of, but he he instituted way stricter protocols for conducting these remote viewing experiments and tests to not just you know, remote viewing experiments were cojected.

He wanted to kind of show that these things could work too. So he came up with something called ranked order, judging which was part of a larger type of test called force, choice yeah, and I'm going to get you to explain that in a second, because I didn't fully get the the Redo.

But May is a pretty interesting guy. He was a doctor.

He was a PhD in nuclear physics and in while it's easy to sort of cast someone like this as just sort of a loopy, Hippi type he's really intelligent guy, but he was also a loopy hippy type. He got his most stock in San Francisco in th s, so you know that means, and he literally used the words he became a professional Hippi.

The A lot of drugs did a lot of psychadelics got into Parif psychology and did what you do. If that is your path, you go to India at some point, just hoping to sort of soak up some cool, esoteric knowledge and bump into Rupert sheldrake yeah. Perhaps - and he came back and didn't really get a lot out of indem terye had a great time and everything sure but didn't come ock there. Yeah didn't come back with anything. He could use, came back in seventy five and then that's where he got a job as a research assistant at Sri International working with Telicanesis, and he was like this is it for me baby. This is this. Is The job you pay me for this and they just kind of took off from there and I guess, took over as direct or one thousand nine hundred ad eighty five right yeah, so he was the one that arted this different sort of testing method called force, not first choice but forced choice. Right it just wasn't.

Quite it wasn't anywhere near as like.

Free and easy is the free response ones. It was basically it kind of went like this. Okay, so the one, let's say, let's say that you're holding one of these tests. Ideally you have three people evolved.

You have the remote viewer yeah, you have the sender, who's. Actually thinking of the thing that the remote view ir supposed to be tapping into and gaining information from, and then you have a judge.

Okay, ideally, you said that the ideas, important yeah and also, ideally the sender and the remote viewer - should not be in contact with one another before or during the experiment. It's another kind of important one too, and these are things that, like Edwin May, was instituting that really kind of scientificfied.

The whole thing definitely gave it up more legitimate glean for sure yeah, but so what happens? Is the the sender chooses a photo from a hundred photos in a National Geographic photoset? That's usually what they use, and I also ideally, we could point out that they would use way more than a hundred photos and not those same photos over and over.

That's a big one too, as we'll see for sure it's a big problem, if youuse the same photo set and the same remote viewers right yes, so the the person who was the cender would sit there and they would pick a photo and then they would think about that photo and the remote viewer would be ideally somewhere else. Thinking about that, what the the sender was thinking of and then they would write down their impressions, they would draw their impressions and then they would compile this little document basically of what they saw during the remote viewing session. Okay, that's this the first step. Yes, t e second step is that you take for other, maybe five other pictures from that same National Geographic photoset and you could even physically put them as printed photos into an envelope, and then you give that to the judge. Who has nothing to do with any of this? To this point, they've just now been given envelope of photos and then they've also been given the remote viewers document that they whipped up from their remote viewing session, and so the judge is supposed to take the remote viewers. Impressions Andand basically match them to one of the photos, and so they rank the photos. If you have six photos, there's one photo. That's your number one photo that you're saying like this is what thei remote viewer was seeing.

This one is the second likeliest, the third likelast, fourth fifth and six likely, so you rank the photos.

If the remote viewer got it right, then the photo the judge chose ad chose, as the number one photo should be. The photo that the sender was thinking of when the remote viewer got their impression, yeah.

Okay sure it's actually in a weird way, very scientific, because you can insert statistical analysis into this whole thing and they did, and they found that over time, some remote viewers did do much better than chance. Just random chance, where out of every hundred tries any photo should be chosen out of a set of five.

You know twice yeah, it was e think the direct quote was from the report was far beyond what is expected by chance. Yes, that supposedly came from a true believer status. Tician whoav done an analysis of this, but yes, there were there were this. I E there was this idea that some of these people were capable of drawing impressions of what somebody else in a different room was thinking based on a photo they were looking at and then there are now. We can talk about all the explanations of how that probably wasn't any sort of Clair voyance yeah, and what bugs me just before we even get to that is in the report. It said it was far beyond what is expected by chance.

Like tell me what percentage chances and what percentage they got.

Not your opinion on what is far beyond and what isn't right right, so that fugs me right off the bat. That's a big one right. There there's also subjectivity running through this big time, because the judgyea is doing a subjective analysis too right yeah and you know, if they're picking another like I mentioned another one of the problems, is they use the same set of one hundred Nat Gio Images?

So I imagine, after a couple of times they know it's going to be something about nature at the very least yeah and if they say, let's say lion attacking elk they're like no, but it's a tiger attacking an antelope. You Win Right, exact, you know Yep and then, if that is the the only photo with anything like a lion, an an elk or whatever tiger in the photo sat. The rest is like an oil, Derek and a lake and some other stuff. Then of course that's the one. That's going to win that the judge is going to choose and they're going to have a hit.

So, there's a lot of like real problems with this, even though they tried to add like science to the whole thing.

They you just can't, do it just anniance right exactly and then so so theres. That was just the experiments that they conducted to kind of show and demonstrate that this worked a lot of the stuff that they used for intelligence.

That was much more along the lines of the the Free Association one. It's not called Free Asociation. What is it called?

Oh, the free response, experiments where they're just like tell us about you know the Soviets, any new submarine de Designs, this a rights ar working on or something so can we can. We tell some of these stories that were supposedly successes. Yes, all right. The West Virginia site is the first one, Dr Targ relaied this story, and these were from the early days in the early S in which a remote viewer in California was given the longitude and latitude cordinates of somewhere in West Virginia said. What do you see and the remote viewer said described like what was going on with t e terrain above the ground and about a secret underground government site and supposedly provided names of personnel who work there code words used for the top secret projects, and apparently the description was really really accurate, so accurate that the CIA said Ell. I don't know if it was t e CIA. I assume it was, but they said that we've got a leak and we need to find out what's going on and investigate this right.

That's the kind of thing I think, like you said that was in Earlys, Dr Targwan Yeah, the something like that that prompts a an investigation into a leak.

That's that will get you more funding for a while that, like definitely will cemit your care themmindation, giving funding yeah for sure, especially yeah. If people are jumpy about what the Soviets might beyond t, this kind of thing too, when we got to get on it sure and apparently that same remote viewer saw or remotely saw an underground site that was similar in Russia in the eural mountains describe that that was supposedly verified, as quote substantially correct by the CIA yep.

So that was one of the big ones. That people kind of tout is evidence that project stargate worked right. Sure there's also one called the microwave generator report, s a good one.

This one was with Dr Mayr Edwin May, and the the remote viewer was, as is typical, just given longtitude and latitude.

Maybe given like a little more evidence, I think they were told that it was a technical site in the US, and the remote viewer started, describing a microwave generator on site and the most astounding thing about it is that t e the remote viewer said that this microwave had a beam of divergence, angle of thirty degrees, which is not something that you should be able to glean from somebody telling you the a latitude and longitude cordinates of a technical site. Sure so that is pretty impressive and then later on, Dr May took the whole description which, as we'll see, is rare in these cases, yeah and and determined that it was that the specks of the generator itself were eighty percent accurate and that the site as a whole were seventy percent. Accurate, Seventynoa Liabl, though okay, seventy percent reliable, no idea how you would conclude that or quantify kind of thing. But exactly again, this is the kind of thing like you're starting to build like a lore around this department. This agency, that people who are already kind of into the existence of this kind of thing, can come and participate in and talk about with their friends and wow people at cocktail parties with the Russian crane. This one came from Dr Targ Remote, the or was given again coordinates of a site, an ther, a city in the former Soviet Union, and there was a in e in like what do you see what the drawing detailed was? A large industrial crane called a gantry clain crane and they said you know what there's no way that this person could have known how to draw this gantry crane unless they saw it through remote viewing or someone told them. This no other explanation yeah, and that was the analyst who has handed this was like wow, that's really impressive.

So the Russian crane stands on its own too yeah and then thereis also one called the Lowell fugitive. There's a woman named Angela Ford, who was a long time, participanting project, Star Gate and she used kind of mediumship where she had three different spirit guides. Who would cause her to carry out automatic writing besause? She did her remote, you right and she - and this is, you know she would go down to ffort me at the barracks and do this right under army supervision, which is so bizarre. But that's what would happen right. So Angela Ford was given the name of guynamed Charles Jordan, who was an interesting cat in an of himself.

He was, he called himself the ruler of the Florida keys.

He was, I thought that was Jamy Buffet.

He was a crutin he's, the Prince of the Floria okay.

He was the he was crooked customs agent who had turned into a drug smuggler down there and also was very easily bribed so that other drug smugglers could smuggle their drugs, and so was Jimmy Buffet. He got caught and went on the run, and so they were looking for him. So they asked Angela Ford if she could find him for him. That's right - and she said I'm seeing or my friends or my ghost friends are telling me and I'm automatically writing this city Lowell Wyoming, and it turned out that he was apprehended a hundred miles west of lavelle Wyoming with a v Yeah, but a hundred miles west of a place that she still didn't name.

Some people say, though, that Charles Jordan admitted to being in the town. Okay, on the day, Angela Ford did her remote viewing seom proven right. So you've got all this stuff.

All of these anecdotes that are just coming together and to like get this check this out get a load of this were all these things that you can point to and write books on and say that, like this is for real and that the Washington Post can report on and that's what's kept this legend, this stuff about project, Star gapbeing for real going all these years, and if you dig itto it it's really really hard to pull apart, because the people who are there will tell you in an interview like Oh, this person said this.

But then, if you interview somebody else to say well, no they didn't say that th, she didn't say she didn't say Lowell. She said Northern Wyoming, somebody else hoald say no. She just said you know somewhere in the West or something like that.

So as the story of Charles Jordan being captured in yellow stone comes out later, the story of Angela Ford remotely viewing him in Wyoming gets piled on and added to over the years until you have heard just missing the letter of the word or the word by one letter and then seeing him in that town on the day that it happened and that's how like the stuff goes, it's just anecdotal stuff.

That really did happen like she really did. Have this remote viewing session, but the accuracy of it is what's always been in doubt the problem is chuck. Is there are examples of people doing some really spectacularly?

Amazingly accurate hits over the years that really kind of Lang creans to it instill in some way, so much so that that American research, Inr American Institute Research Paper still said. Look there are some weird unexplainable stuff in here: Does it prove that remote viewing is real and it exists? No there's a lot of things that could explain these pectacular accurate hits, but overall no it's not going to it doesn't show that this is.

This is real, because these are e.

The hits there was so much garbage produced that by the time, O e thousand nine hundred nd. Ninety five role around the CIA was like this is even if promote viewing does exist, it's so useless as an intelligence tool that we're not going to find it anymore.

So we take another break.

Yeah all right think a breaking will be right back after this all right. So here's the deal - and this is sort of the big question which you kind of answered before the break. Sorry, is it no, it's all right. It's an how myselfs a nice tease. Is it a useful spy tool because we can have fun all day, finding something and doing these fun experiments and getting them sort of right or not, but the whole purpose of all of this was: can we actually use this stuff as actionable evidence or intelligence?

And you can't really like we said they are anecdotal.

They might be impressed by a certain part of a thing, and you mentioned that it's rare that they ever included like the full, drawing or the full discourse on whatever they supposedly saw or didn't see, they would sort of pick out something that was right and sa look. They got this one part right, that's amazing, but that's sort of where it ended the with the with the Gantry Crane.

You know they got that Gantry Crane right, but there was there was so much stuff. That was wrong that they said we. We can't use this right and that's sort of the point of all this is we can't use this stuff as intelligence, because it's just partial people that defended it would say, and Jordan mcmonigell is one of them said this isn't supposed to be the endalbal. This is supposed to work alongside real intelligence and just see if it could help support some of this stuff or give them a hint in the right direction to start using real intelligence, and it was never supposed to be a stand alone that you go and like Rada, Russian village, because some remote viewer said there was a nuclear weapon there or something yeah y h, and I think the CIA always viewed as that too, and that, like it, was benign, it was very cheap and inexpensive. It can be done easily, but the problem is is like. If you have somebody WHO's, producing tons and tons of garbage intelligence, the analist still has to sift through that, and in some of that garbage intelligence. There may be something that leads them down the wrong path and, while they're doing that, they miss some other intelligence at that, actually is useful and good, and so it's kind of like a metaphor for what pseudoscience in general. Does the society like theres garbage on there? That kind of distracts you from the stuff that you could be doing. That would actually be beneficial.

That's what it did to intelligence analysts too, and that's why they ultimately abandond the whole program right, but for twenty years they thought you know there were three big reasons why it was attractive and they all kind of boil down to why not which it's a passive operation. So it's doesn't require a lot of resources. It's you know.

I don't know how many people they had remote viewing it their Max, but I doubt if it was that many it didn't cost a lot. Six million bucks a year isn't that much money in a defense budget and then it's what's known as no known defense.

So even if it's working let's say, then the enemy can't really stop this.

I guess, except for rooting, these people out and tracking them down and killing them sure. But aside from that, those are the three reasons for twenty years.

They threw six million bucks a year at it and I'm sure that kind of wavered in and out - but you know, yeah, I spent over twenty million dollars.

No, I think they spent twenty million dollars over twenty years.

Oh, is that all yeah man, that was it for the whole the whole time I wac they spent six million a year.

No, I think it might have been up to like six million dollars at the end of it, but over over the course of it, and I don't think this is really necessarily adjusted for inflation, but starting in seventy five and ending in ninety five. Twenty million dollars. You know on paper is what got spent got you so those forst years. It was like here's, a hundred thousand dollars in a bucket af weed kind of, I think so in some grape Coola, its all tean, all right. Well, twenty million bucks, but yeah. That's not a lot of money. For you know if you're talking overall defense budgets, no, it's not, and so it's so cheap that were we're even vaguely, promising or vaguely helpful.

The SA would have been fools not to keep funding this or the the the Defense Department would have been fools not to keep funding it. Somebody yeah and I could have kept finding if we really put our minds to it, but it not only wasn't useful it.

It did not.

It was actually harmful as far as an intelligence tool is concerned. That was, I think, what I gather from them. Finally, canceling it yeah in this. You know this last bit about the representative from North Carolina. Charlie rose, not the not the the TV guy who's turned out to be quite a jerk, but he kind of summed it up, and this is what I think the deal is is if - and this is what started it to begin with, if you think the Soviets are doing this, you can't just sit back, or at least that's the rationale. You can't just sit back and say: well, it's probably so silly and not even real, but we're certainly not going to let them be the only ones trying this yeah yeah like if the Ruskis have it we've sure as heck butter beyond it ourselves a think.


Well, I was going to say luckily that mentality FAV with coal war, but it's back, everybody hey the adies are back yeah. They are big time, people wearing fanny packs and apparently there's.

What's that one thing where, like Youd touch the shirt and like your handprint, would be a color, oh sure, like the the heat heat shirts or whatever.

I can't remember what they're called but anyways or bacantly back yeah very cool. Ladies, are back so that's it. That's project, Stargate, there's a lot to read about it. If you were fascinated by it whether you're fascinated by it is just completely creck pot thing or you're like Nope, I don't believe you Josh and Chuck, I think you're covering up for the government and the Illuminadi. Whatever go read more about it, and in particular I wanted.

I want to direct you to Mars exploration, may twenty second, one thousand nine hundred and eighty four, it's a dclassified transcript from a remote viewing session of Mars, where they asked the. I think Joseph mcmonigall to wander around Mars in the year, one million BC and it's fascinating stuff, but it also tells you everything you need to know about project starting.

If you want to know what I already said, that kind of thing didn't I took. I guess it's time now for listener mail.

I'm GOINTA call this heroine podcast, and this is from anonymous Yo.

Thanks for your hair, Wen podcast, you spoke fairly about something that is usually wrought with bias.

I grew up in the Kensington neighborhood of Philadelphia. It's one of the largest drug markets in the world, most of which is heroine.

We Are Ground Zero. Now for the OPIOID epidemic growing up around so much heroine messes with you, my childhood best friends turn to sex work to pay for it. While we played video games upstairs people ere odeing in middle school, the class clowns dad was one of the biggest runners in the city. So when he was arrested, the kid was never the same.

It's very difficult to explain what being around groups of people on heroin is like.

The link below is an excellent New York Times article about the Kinsington Avenue area. Luckily, for me, I suppose I got out relatively unscathed.

A lot of people see people who are addicted as animals and criminals.

I struggle with where I stand. I know as a group it's a public health issue, but it is also hard when looking at the individuals actions Kinsington was a middle class haven from the early to midnineteenth century until the crack epidemic of the s. According to my parents, a Sunday event was walking to the shops on Kinsington Avenue did not happen after that and that here's the article it is called trapped by the Walmart of heroin by Jennifer Percy from New York Times October, wo Tosndad, eighteen, and that is from anonymous man alive anonymous.

I'm glad you made it out alive so like because that is very scary, stuff.

What a man it's crazy! It makes you realize what what a lottery birth is. You know not just in like your socioeconomic class or your race or what country you're born into, but like what neighborhood you born into to I d never heard of it yeah I hadn't eve. Tho read that article that looks good yeah. Well thanks a lot, and we appreciate you getting in touch with us and if you want to get in touch with us, please do you can send us an email to stuff podcast at I heart, radiocom Stuff You Should Know, is production of ihart radios. HOUSESTUFF works for more podcast for my heart radio, because it the IHAT radio, a apple podcast Ow, wherever you listen to your favorite, shows

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