April 24, 2021 • 49 mins
At its base, criminal profiling is a legitimate investigatory tool. The Supreme Court has drawn a clear line that bans profiling when it includes race. So why do we still do it? Take a closer look with Josh and Chuck in this classic episode.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, it's your bro Josh, and for this week's
s Y s K Selects, I've chosen our episode from
July of two thousand fifteen on the extraordinarily controversial practice
of profiling. You'll find out all the ins and outs
of profiling when it actually works, why it generally doesn't,
and why it's so just utterly offensive in general. Plus
(00:23):
you'll also get to hear Chuck classic Chuck after he
got back from adopting his daughter, and he gets to
thank everybody who helped him along the way. And it's
just very nice and heartwarming, especially considering the episode it's
attached to. So at any rate, I hope you enjoy
it and take good care, Doe do do? What was that?
(00:46):
That is a heraldic announcement? Yes, before we get going, Uh,
I know people on social media already know this stuff,
but I wanted to announce on the podcast that Chuck
here has opted a baby. Girl. Chuck has a baby,
A beautiful baby. Yeah she is, she's cuteie. She she
was ten days late, so she came out and not
(01:08):
looking like one of those little alien creatures. No, she
fully formed. Yes, what's her name, Chuck? Her name is
Ruby Rose Bryant Man. She's so cute and she was
born on your birthday. Yeah, isn't that crazy? One of
the better days of the year July fift But isn't
that remarkable? I think it is remarkable out of all
the days. And I was literally I was just like, well,
(01:29):
let me scroll through the celebrity birthday it's just, you know,
for giggles to see what you know, who shares her birthday.
About three quarters of the way down and saw your
face and I had forgotten it was your birthday because
I was just in another planet, and I like, immediately
I was like, Emily, you got to see this. You'll
never guess whose birthday she shares. So I think that's
really neat. Um. So anyway, uh, thank you everybody for
(01:53):
the support. Stop stop chuck, Yes on behalf of every stuff.
You should know. A listener out there, yes, congratulate since
to you and Emily. Do you feel like you can
speak for them? Yes? Of course, Okay, because there might
be one guy out there he's like, I don't care,
he can stop listening right now. But I do have
some people to thank. Um. This happened in Tulsa, Oklahoma,
(02:14):
and Um. We stayed in this little area called East Village.
It was literally like a block in this loft and
Airbnb loft and above pizza place and across street from
a bar. And I'll bet you have some people to think. Yeah,
these people like took us in as family. It was
like literally every day, you know, for ten days late,
(02:34):
we're out there two days early. So for like two
weeks they were like, what's going on? You know, where's
this baby? So I want to thank how just bend
which you would love to do? This cocktail bar right
up your alley. It sounds like you said cocktail bar. Yeah.
And not only do they make like fresh you know,
fresh ingredients, but they don't have like a thing of
cucumber sliced uff. They uncumber as needed nice and you
(02:58):
know the jalapeno you would have. They were doing it
right there. So Jamie and Nate and Nicole and Ian
the chef at I've just been it was the stuff
you should know. Man. Oh yeah, he came out and
he was like is it who I think it is?
How fortuitous? How fortuitous? And then uh, East Village Bohemian Pizzeria.
We stayed above this place and they were great. Did
the smell drive you nuts all the time? But we
(03:20):
ate a lot of people. Okay, Uh, so Pat there
and my boy Max, Max and I really hit it off.
Were like genuine life pals down uh and he at
the end, I go to leave and I just give
him a letter saying thank you and here's my contact info.
And then like p s. By the way, I have
a podcast. He's an ornithologist, he has his master's, but
(03:41):
he's not doing that right now. You know, he's running
this pizza joint and just a really smart guys, Like
I could think you might like this podcast. I do.
He comes up and tells me afterwards, this is like
our parting words. He was like, dude, your chuck. He's like, really,
I had a weird like thing. He said, I knew
that you seemed for Millier, but I didn't want to
say anything, like even watched the TV show. Oh wow.
(04:03):
So Max was like, that's probably why I didn't want
to say anything. Yeah, he didn't want to bring it up.
So a huge thanks to those guys. And then um
our caseworker Jessica Um also a stuff you should know
fan that is amazing because at the end of our
first call like a month ago. She went, all right,
we've got business done. I have something I have to admit.
(04:25):
It's like, I'm a huge fan man. So it was weird.
It was like the stuff you should know, nation sort
of caring for me. Yeah, and all of the people
like you. You put a picture of Ruby Rose up, yeah,
and like broke the internet. It was it was people
love newborns. Well yeah, but people love Chuck's newborn. Yeah.
But you know it could have been a puppy and
probably gotten don I don't think that was very sweet. Yeah,
(04:50):
so that meant a lot to me. But Jessica and
her two sons, Hugh and Henry, I know they are
listeners to they are awesome boys, and she really took
care of us. So I'm glad it worked out like
a man three weeks sin Tulsa. It was a weird
and stressful and but it sounds wonderful. Yeah, good start though. Yeah,
I mean we were in there. Emily helped deliver this baby,
and I was in the man zone right behind. I
(05:11):
am so proud of you guys. I'm so happy for
you guys. I also want to say Jerry is not
allowed to talk. Jerry feels the exact same way. She's, well,
we could take the duck tapeall for today, maybe, Jerry,
how do you feel? Yes, she said, yeah, she agrees.
She just spelled out on the speaking spelled called them police. Anyway,
(05:32):
this is not going to become the New Baby show. Um,
she will probably disappear from uh your lives. But just
know that we're all doing great and thank you for
the support. All right, nice job, Chuck, thanks man, congratulates,
Thank you, sir. Welcome to Stuff you should know, a
production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
(05:59):
I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and Jerry,
which means it's time for listener mayo. Oh wait, wow
about that, I'm brain to start. That's why we leave
that in there. Do you want to ye? Or maybe
I should just read listener mail. We can go home. Okay,
it's a build your own episode. Yeah, it's a mad libs.
(06:23):
Just fill it in. I'm profiling, Yeah, styling and profiling.
I'm pretty excited. Are you styling and profile? Well? This
is a that's a different thing. This yeah, okay, I
think that has to do with um, like photography, no
think styling and profile and just means you're living large. Yeah,
you're fashionable and hip. Oh gotcha. Yeah, No, this is different. Yeah,
(06:49):
and this is a grab star article, which is the
mark of quality, as we all know it is. It's
refreshing to see and it is Um, we should just
say right off the bat, profiling is a super divisive topic.
Oh yeah, Um, there are many ways to look at it,
and all they make sense sometimes on both sides. It's
a tough one. Yeah, so that's my caveat. It's divisive.
(07:13):
So um. One thing that grabs her immediately points out
is like, not all profiling is profiling, like you think
of Sure, we're going to talk about all the different ways, right,
There's plenty of accepted forms of profiling. And the first one, um,
is the standard all points bulletin or be on the lookout, Right,
(07:35):
that's the kind that no one has a problem with.
No one does, Yeah, because that you you know what
that is. That's uh, silver toyota to coma with spotted
today and white male in his mid forties with spiky
hair and uh sort of chubby with a big gross
gray black beard has committed a crime and he's wearing
(07:55):
cargo shorts and flip flops. Oh, I see you're describing
yourself profiler, but you put in their white male. And
the reason that's what I am. The reason why people
don't have a problem with this is twofold one. A
crime has already been committed. Yeah, okay, I committed a crime.
So the police work is finding a perpetrator that has
(08:17):
already committed a crime. And secondly, that profile is based
on eyewitness accounts descriptions of the person. That's right, So
that profile is being used to track down a specific person.
Has nothing to do with anybody else. Who's white, has
nothing to do with anybody else, who drives a silver Tacoma,
(08:40):
has nothing to do with any of that jazz. It's
just this guy is suspected of having committed this crime
and he looks like this. Yeah you hear. You see
it on the news every night. Yes, you know that's
not just cops that use this. The news will say
the suspect is, uh, you know, wearing a handsome, checkered Oxford,
(09:01):
button down, whispy hair, and white, straight teeth exactly, so
they're describing you, Oh you think my teeth are nice?
I didn't say that. I said they were white and straight.
That's nice if that's what you're into. This is coming
from a guy who just found out he's about to
have to lose his front tooth all over again, start over. Yeah, man,
(09:24):
that sucks. Which I know there are some fans out
there that are laughing Aaron Cooper that toothless Chuck is
coming back in the house for it. It's really just him. Yeah,
he's the only one whould be jerky enough to laugh
at that. That kind of misfortune, you know, I know,
I'm sorry to bring that up. I'm just still reeling
from that discovery. It stinks. You think you get an
(09:45):
implant and it's for life. Yeah, especially when they sell
you a lifetime implant. Yeah, exactly. Alright. So, uh, like
you said, including descriptions and skin color is not controversial
this case. No, it's in. Everybody from the FEDS to
the local police are okay with that. Yeah, they're all
(10:06):
in on it. And and not just the police, like
everybody's like, yeah, this is fine, this makes sense. Sure,
not a thing that's right. The next one is psychological profiling,
and this is when you don't have a lot of
physical evidence or you don't have an eyewitness, and you're
trying to fill in the blanks and make some good
guesses billy blanks based on I remember that guy. Uh,
(10:28):
some good guesses based on like the crime scene or
just the circumstances of the crime. Yes, again, a crime
has already taken place, and you're trying to figure out
who solved it, and you're taking committed it. You're trying
to figure out who's gonna solve it alright, alright, which
you figure out the same moment when as you do
(10:49):
when you figure out who committed it. It's interesting mind bending.
Right Twice you've jumped to the end of something. It's
so weird. I don't know what that means. I think
you know what it means. Uh. Sometimes they are vague,
but wait, I hadn't finished my thought. Okay, I didn't
mess it up that bad. Let me go back and finish. Um.
The point is it's drawn from available evidence, Yeah, clues,
(11:12):
clues that you're bringing together to try to draw up
an idea of who did this, right exactly, Okay, So
sometimes it can be vague, but if you watch TV
and movies, um, it is probably not how it really
goes down, but it's super specific when you see it
in fiction, you know, like I think this, uh as
(11:33):
a man who was beaten as a child, and he
probably lives alone or Sherlock Holmes was really good at
that kind of thing. It's a good point. Love Sherlock Holmes. Yeah,
that's good stuff. Uh did you know he was a
morphine and cocaine addict? Really? Yeah? Well I guess you
need both in like the original stories? Really yeah? Oh
(11:53):
like in the books. Wow, not the real guy right,
as I think, Yeah, are you sure you're not just
thinking of Robert Downey Jr. I mean I've read the
Originals and he like does he shoots morphing in it?
And and Watson is not very happy with the whole thing.
(12:14):
Yeah he's straight edge. No, he's not straight edge, but
he doesn't he's not a junkie, you know. But he
didn't care. He was like, Watson, wash my toes. So
I can between them all right, Moving on to predictive profiling, Well, yeah,
this is where it starts to get a little messy. Yeah,
I can get a little controversial. Even psychological profiling is
(12:37):
a little controversial. I have to say, chuck, like, it's
not a proven, tried and true thing. It's as much
a guessing game as anything else. Um, But it's not
nearly still as controversial as predictive profiling, because now you're
trying to say, these people will probably commit a crime,
right not not not civil sorry issue, big time, big time. Um.
(13:03):
Police officers do great work. Ideally, they're not just reacting
to committed crimes, but they are um driving around the
neighborhood looking for a suspicious person that might be about
to commit a crime, to prevent crime, to prevent a crime,
which is tough to do. You know, it's right place,
right time in most cases. And you use the word
ideally right ideally yes. Um. So even when this happens,
(13:28):
this Supreme Court has roundly um sided with police officers
um as profiling for justification. So it's legally speaking, okay,
it's on the books. It's on the books. So so
give an example of the kind of profiling that's okay
to be used. Um. The one of the article is great. Um.
(13:50):
Let's say you're in uh, South Florida, and you're you're
traveling up and you're in a it's four a m.
And you're in a rented black suv with tinted windows,
and you have the spare tire in the back seat removed. Um,
I'm sorry, it's it's removed from the trunk area. It's
(14:11):
in the backseat, just sitting in the back seat. Might
be might be a drug trafficker, right, And the cop
is basing this on something like, um, a profile, Yeah,
but a profile based on previous experiences with other drug
dealers in the same area. Because that's a really big
one right there. Like um. One of the things for
(14:33):
using profiles successfully is it has it's it has it
has to be over a certain period of time and
associated with a certain place. So you use Miami and
say Miami, right, if you saw that person and you
would say, well, this is probably a cocaine trafficker based
(14:54):
on all the other dealings with cocaine traffickers who who
used the same transportation. M Yeah, And we should point
out the tires removed, because you can then hide the
drugs where their spare tire went, and then that's why
the tires in the back seat. Yes, so these are
red flags. But if you're like in um Wyoming in
two thousand fifteen, and you read an article about how
(15:18):
that held true in Miami. That is not necessarily a
justifiable transference of profiling because it exists in a different time,
in a different place. That's right. So, like you said,
this can be a this can be high level policy, UM,
it can be unofficial policy. It can be just merely
(15:39):
experienced as a police officer. That's something you've encountered from
time to time and basically to determine if this profile
justifies a search warrantless search that is, in other words,
you haven't gone to the judge and as applied for
a warrant and had them review it and all that
stuff or rubber stamp it, which we'll get to. Um.
(16:00):
It's got a stand up in court, right, and so
you gotta be careful as a cop you do. Um,
you have to have what's called an articulable suspicion, which
was established by a nineteen case or Supreme Court ruling
Terry versus Ohio. And the Supreme Court said, and this
is actually from a Matt ti abi Um article. It's
(16:22):
really really worth reading. It's called Why Baltimore Blew Up.
It was in Rolling Stone like a month or two ago.
It's a very good article. Um. But he talks about
this terry case led to what are called terry stops,
whereas if a cop has a suspicion that they can
put into words meaning it's not just a hunch, um,
(16:45):
that somebody is is either just committed a crime or
going to commit a crime, that that is probable cause,
and it's browns first search. Yeah, And here's a had
a great example here, like let's say the cop and
it would say this, the suspect of pure nervous made
several contradictory statements. In the back seat, I saw a
(17:05):
shoebox full of old film canisters, which drug carriers commonly use.
The car smell like air freshener spray, which is used
to cover up the smell of drugs. And I spotted
them driving slowly up and down a block that I
know is frequented by drug dealers. Right, that's called good
police work in court. Right, that's called like a prosecutor's
dream copah um. And if you if you go back
(17:28):
and you notice all of that stuff, all of these
things are based on. So a block that he knows
to be frequented by drug dealers, thirty five millimeter canisters.
Maybe he read a Police Benevolent Association newsletter article about that, Um,
all of this stuff together um becomes what's called cumulative similarities.
(17:48):
And supposedly a Florida Highway patrolman named Bob Vogel is
the first guy to put this down on paper. He
was very controversial, which is, you take all of these
different things and put them together, and you can form
a profile, and you can use that to pull somebody
over and then you know, eventually search their car if
(18:09):
you're a Florida Highway patrolment. Right. So, UM, you've got
you've got all of these. Uh. You have the terry
stops which are used for broken windows policing and just
for pulling people over, but they require an articulable suspicion,
but they can be based on where called cumulative similarities,
which is a profile. Either like that your police department
(18:32):
is saying be on the lookout for people driving with
their spare tire in the backseat, um at this time
of night. So far, this has all been upheld by
the Supreme Court. That's right. But there's a very very
fine line, um that is frequently crossed, and we will
(18:54):
talk about how that runs a foul of the Constitution
right after this, all right, Josh, before we took a break,
(19:23):
you mentioned something called the Constitution, And there are a
couple of amendments that come into play when you're talking
about search and seizure, probable cause profiling, and they are
the fourth and fourteenth Amendments. The fourth reads in whole
the right of the people to be secure in their
persons is that JFK. I went into him Whitston Churchill. Sure,
(19:46):
it's both houses papers and effects against unreasonable searches and
seizures shall not be violated, and no warrant shall issue,
but upon probable costs supported by oath or affirmation, and
particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons
of things to be seized. Right, So there's some big
words in there, big big like money words like, uh,
(20:09):
it's a protection against unreasonable searches and seizures, which means,
as far as the Supreme Court's concerned, some cops just
can't say I'm gonna push you up against the wall
and pay you down for no reason whatsoever. Yeah, Or
I'm gonna pull you over for no reason and I'm
gonna search your car on the side of the road
(20:30):
for no reason, um does not happen, right of course
not sure? So, Um, that's the Fourth Amendment, right, And uh,
there's another big term in there. It's called probable cause,
like you have to have and if from a lot
of people say that that night Terry versus Ohio ruling
(20:50):
is just too broad in articulable suspicion, like what is
that you know? Um, But even still there's there, So
there has to be some sort of probable cause. And
a lot of the times, as we'll see, it's just
from uh, some something out in plain side or something
like that. But there's a big struggle over what constitutes
(21:13):
probable cause. But the point is the Fourth Amendment says
you have to have probable cause or else it's an
unreasonable search, that's right. And uh, a police officer in
most cases has to go get a warrant for like
the search of a home or something. Um. And there's
a whole issue of rubber stamping warrants these days of
course that like the judge may not even really review that.
(21:33):
It's just a formality, right or for anybody who's watched
it's enough Law and Order episodes, all you have to
do is go I smell pot. Do you smell pot?
Wink wink, and then kick the door in, Yeah, exactly,
because that's you can't prove that the cop didn't think
you smell pot exactly. Now there's the threat of perjury,
of perjuring himself on the stand. But I imagine at
(21:54):
least as far as like Brisco and Green are concerned,
they're hoping that they're gonna find so gang buster overwhelming
evidence that everybody's going to forget about the fake smell
of pot. Um. So, there was actually a case which
relates to probable calls called the US v. Sokolow that
made it all the way to the Scotus And um,
(22:17):
did you read about that case? I did. It's um
it was a nine. Well that was when the ruling
was right. Yeah. So what happened was the d A
arrested a guy at the Honolulu airport found over a
thousand grams of cocaine in his carry on. It was
a key he had aw and he paid. Uh. They
the agents knew all this going into it. This is
(22:38):
why they arrested him. He paid bucks for round trip
tickets with a roll of twenty dollar bills. He traveled
under a name that did not match the name under
which his telephone was listed. Um, he was originally going
to Miami, and this yeah, because la Flag at the time,
he only stayed in Miami for two days, even though
(23:00):
a round trip flight from Honolulu takes twenty hours, so
a very quick trip and no others. He was almost
flying as long as he was there in Miami, he
met up with a man named Tony Montana. Apparently he
appeared nervous and he did not check his baggage, and
the district court denied motion to suppress the evidence, said
(23:22):
it was justifiable. The Court of Appeals disagreed and overturned that,
and then eventually it went to the Supreme Court and
they said no, it's okay because they had what was
quote a totality of evidence. So here's the thing, though,
the thing that makes that so groundbreaking. And nowadays, I mean,
we were raised under so clow Right, it seems like
(23:42):
this is just the norm. But it was a ground
breaking case of the time because nothing none of that.
It's not against the law to pay your plane ticket
with cash, it's not against the law to not check
your bags. At the time, it wasn't against the law
to travel under an assumed name. Yeah, and I don't
think at the time it was against a law to
go to Miami just for two right, exactly, none of
this is against the law. And so if you if
(24:05):
if you just followed the strict interpretation the law up
to that point there was they couldn't bust this guy.
Even though when they busted him they found a kilo
of coke, like they knew they would in his bag. Um,
there wasn't enough there. In the Supreme Court said you
know what, we we think that when you put all
that stuff together, there is enough there. Now what constitutes
(24:26):
that totality? Is it two pieces of evidence? Is that
one thing? Um? You know, how much does it take
to profile? But what they were saying in so colo was, yes,
the the stuff that you've seen from other proven criminals
applied to somebody else who you don't yet fully know
as a criminal is enough for you to bust them
(24:47):
and see if you're right. Yeah, again, it's just like
kind of groundbreaking. He didn't go straight to jail. They
looked in his bag, yes, but it's do you have
the right to look in the bag? Is what it
comes down. And they were saying that there. The Supreme
Court's interpretation is this stands up to the Fourth Amendment. Yeah,
and I met the guy went to Miami for two days.
(25:09):
Kiss your civil rights goodbye. Uh So with the fourteenth Amendment, UM,
it states in part that no State shall make or
enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities
of citizens of the US. Uh I think everybody wants
the Kennedy voice against. Uh. I think any time you
read amendments from the Bill of Rights, you have to
do it like that. Nah shall any state deprive any
(25:31):
person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law,
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction equal protection
of the laws. So this one applies. You might say, well,
we've got the Fourth we don't need the fourteenth. Fourteen
says look, man, you can't just bust somebody without this again,
(25:51):
due process of law. And we have a due process
of law. And what the Supreme Court did with cases
like so below and with cases like Terry versus Ohio UM,
is they said profiling is part of the due process
of law. That's right. So one thing that they have
gone back to again and again and again and again
(26:13):
is that if race is factored in and almost any circumstances.
There are circumstances that is where racial profiling is allowed
in police work. But for the most part, if you're
basing your suspicions of criminal wrongdoing on race largely or
in part, then that is not That runs a foul
(26:36):
of the fourth and the fourteenth Amendments, and you're not
allowed to do that. Yeah. The grabs Her points out
that cops, unless you are have an a p b
out on a Hispanic mail or a black male, then
you're supposed to be color blind as a cop, exactly,
all right, You're supposed to be supposed to So you know, um,
(26:56):
the Eric Garner case, the Michael Brown case, UM, all
of these cases where you know, black mails were basically
stopped from either doing a petty offense or just stop
based on suspicion because they were black in their neighborhood. UM.
It prompted the executive branch to release a new set
of guidance, like an updated set of guidelines for racial profiling,
(27:22):
and they were they basically spelled out examples. Um. I
posted to it on the podcast page for this episode,
but they spelled out examples for when that when it's appropriate,
And they said, if it's an all points bulletin for
any police yes, Um, if you're traffic or if you're
patrolling and looking for criminals and you're basing it on race,
(27:45):
absolutely not allowed. But they said they gave an example
where like, um, if, for example, you are looking for
somebody who carried out a hit on a gang leader,
and you know there's this rival gang and this right
of old gang is probably the ones who carried out
this hit, and every member of this rival gang is Hispanic,
(28:08):
that you could use that as part of the profile
and searching for your suspect. That it just makes sense
in that case, right, Not because you don't look for
the little old white lady, right exactly. Yeah, because it's
that specific. But you wouldn't cast a dragnet over all Hispanics.
It would be Hispanic men related to this gang. You
see what I'm saying. I think the lesson here is
(28:29):
get the little old white lady to do the hit.
It's been done before, and you're golden. It has been
done before, which is one of the one of the
problems with racial profiling is it's distracting. Yeah, you know,
we'll get to that. But that's definitely true. Um, and
you know when you watch cops, it's not always like
(28:50):
sometimes that I will see on the TV show. They
will pull over. They'll stop a white kid, like suburban
white kid that's in a bad neighborhood, because they'll be like, well,
he's he doesn't below here. Yeah, he's probably buying drugs
because this is a street where people buy drugs. There's
a crack house down there. And this guy is from
the county, uh, you know, the white suburban county out
(29:10):
in the suburbs. Let's pull him over. That's racial profile.
That's the same same thing but different. Well it's the
same thing, yeah, but you know what I mean. Um,
all right, so let's talk about probable cause analysis. This
is good. There's, um, during a traffic stop, there's there's
several things a cop can do and each one requires
different kinds of cause in order for it to be legal. Um. Yeah, Again,
(29:38):
they aren't supposed to just pull you over for no reason.
They're not supposed to. You're supposed to fit some sort
of either you broke a traffic law or you fit
a profile that that has been agreed upon. Is okay, Yeah,
but a cop to pull over for. And again we're
not knocking police officers hard work, and mostly they do
(30:00):
rate work. But a cop can pull someone over for
anything and say, like, when you made that turn, you
swung a little too wide, or you hit that yellow line,
and um, so I'm suspicious that you're drunk, like you know.
Like that, you can almost invent a reason to pull
someone over and under any circumstances. So let's just start
(30:22):
with that. When you pull over a car, UM, Supposedly,
to pull someone over, legally, you need to have witnessed
a violation UM. Or you can run the plates and
see if their cars stolen or if there's a warrant
out for the owner. That's a big thing you see
on cops all the time. UM. And the cop can
make a stop as long as they can describe specific
(30:44):
factors that fit the profile. Right car, car full of
black kids. Not okay to just pull that car over,
not for that reason. But if they say, like I
saw um smoke coming out the windows. Um, they were
driving around aradically and it smelled like pot smoke from
the road, then that is a reason Number two. When
(31:09):
you go to a question the suspect, that's moving things
up a notch. Uh, you don't have to get a
ticket when you get pulled over. You might just get
questioned if you seem suspicious. Um, and they can you know,
they'll shine that light in the car and they'll look
at everything that they can see without actually searching the car. Yeah,
and that's well within their right what's called plane view exactly.
So if you have like a bag of pots sitting
(31:30):
out on the front seat with you and the cops
sees it, that just opened your entire car and your
person up to a search. Yes, and you that means
you are super high because now now there's probable cause.
But if you have long hair and you have an
open half gallon of ice cream next to you, still
not enough. My race is suspicions, but that still should
(31:51):
not be enough to um give them probable cause to
search your car. Well, I got profiled in Texas. Me
and my best friend Brett many years ago I to college,
did a big out west trip for two months and
the cops said he didn't put He said he pulled
us over because I didn't have my seat belt on. Um,
why he really pulled us over? Us because we were
too scruffy looking guys with tattoos and beards in a
(32:15):
Volkswagen van. Um, and he searched the van. He asked
if he could, and we said he could, And he
searched the van for like an hour on the side
of the road. Long story short, chucked in five years,
five hard ones. No, we didn't get caught with anything,
and we got away. And he basically was mad at
us that he wasted his time, and the last thing
(32:36):
he said was a get out of Texas. So and
I said, I'm trying to sir. But the point is
that that cop asked you if he could search your car,
right he did, and that if you give consent, then
you were waving your Fourth Amendment rights. But you don't
have to give consent. Not many people know this. And
there's some states that make the cop tell you you
(32:57):
are allowed to refuse the search of your car. Um.
Not all states do. I've never heard it either. Um. Instead,
the cop just says, can I search your car in
the most intimidating voice possible, And most people will just
fold like a house of cards, um, because they're scared
of the cop or whatever. Even if they do have
something in there, they're not going to be like, Nope,
(33:18):
you're not allowed to search the car. So the point
where the cop asks if he can search the car
is usually in the absence of something that nothing in
plain sight, but also that cops suspicious suspicions are raised.
He just can't quite prove it. So I'll ask you
if you can search your car. If you say no,
(33:39):
the cop can say, well, I'm I'm going to detain
you temporarily. Right Basically, I can go, I will wait
it out, I can get a warrant. I'm gonna search
that car, right, Okay. If he wants to get a warrant,
that's different. Like what he's doing now is trying to
do everything he can to search your car without having
to go to the trouble of getting a warrant without
(34:01):
probable cause like seeing a bag of pot in the
front seat. Right time was that they could detain you
for up to like ninety minutes while they called the
canine unit out, And the canine unit has been shown
to if the canine unit sniffs around your car, that's
not an unreasonable search. And if the canine smells something
or indicates that there are drugs present, then that does
(34:23):
provide probable cause for a full search under the Fourth Amendment.
Right they change that. Yeah. Um. In April this past April,
the Supreme Court had decision that said, no, you really
can't make people wait around while the drug dog comes out.
They're like, we're not opposed to that, but the point
of a traffic stop is to promote and encourage traffic safety,
(34:46):
not to cast a drug drag net for drug couriers. Um.
And you you cannot detain people without a reasonable suspicion
to wait for the drug dog to come out. If
they tell you you can't, they you're not allowed to
search their car. That's good. I wonder if it had
anything to do with um. If you look up online,
(35:07):
there are ways that cops can make a drug dog signal,
basically by how they're handling the dog, and there's a
lot of suspicion, and they'll play him side by side,
like you see this cops doing it right, And if
you see this cop, watch this little thing he does.
Then the dog barks. And basically there was a lot
of speculation that bad cops would use the well not that,
(35:30):
but yeah, essentially making the dog signal a false alert
just to give them reason. Well, the dog barked, So
now I can I can search your car or and
maybe it all started because I meant to bring this
up a second ago. Suspicion can be they seem nervous, right,
Like everyone's nervous when a cop pulls them over, even
if you haven't done anything. It's just nerve wracking. It's
(35:52):
like white coat blood pressure. Yeah. I mean, like a
lot of people's blood pressure is high at the doctor
because they're nervous about, you know, being at the doctor.
There's someone's standing at my window with a gun, right
Like it's nerve wracking. Yeah. So the Supreme Court said, no,
you guys, you have to have a reasonable suspicion to
detain somebody on the side of the road that they've
committed another crime. It can't just be I'm pulling you over.
(36:15):
You have to wait for ninety minutes while the drug
dog comes out so I can bust you or try
to bust you or whatever. That was. That was a
big deal that they came up with that. Yeah, we
didn't in Texas. We didn't have the drug dog come out,
but we were I felt like we were on the
side of the road for an hour while he dug
through that entire van um just you could tell he
was he really wanted to find something. Yeah, all right,
(37:04):
let's open the canib worms, my friend. Racial profiling. It's
a big, big deal in this country. It's a problem,
and um let's talk about it. Okay, that's good. Uh.
So that is basically it's a form of predicted profiling,
uh where one of, if not the only factor, is
(37:24):
skin color. Right that like, um oh, let's say that, um,
Mexican people are way more um prone to sell meth.
So let's go hang out at that Hispanic neighborhood. Right,
but there's a couple of things wrong with that, um,
and that is racial profiling. Some people actually defend it, saying, well,
(37:51):
if you look at prison statistics, Hispanics are far more
likely to be imprisoned for drug crimes than say, white
p bowl, so that makes sense, right right, Okay. The
other saying right right, I'm playing along here. The other
side of the coin is that you can use those
same statistics to point to the idea that Hispanics and
(38:15):
Blacks are disproportionately targeted for drug busts than other people. Right,
and so the same this is an ed points out
This is one of the problems with this debate is
both sides used the same statistics differently to prove their point. Yeah.
Another thing he points out is that people that say
(38:37):
some people will say that it is institutionalized racism and
its harassment of minority Yeah, straight up. People who defend
against it say, cops harass criminals, and if those criminals
happen to be minorities, t s. That's not our fault.
And I think that's just the reality of the world
we live in. Even further, there's people who say, yes,
(38:58):
racial profiling is the thing, and it's an effective tool
of law enforcements. Sorry, welcome the reality. Um. Those people
usually have their arguments demolished pretty quickly, including by professionals.
I read this UM this interview or well an article
about the former chief chief of police of Palo Alto
(39:18):
around San Francisco area, and UM, he also grew up
as an Oakland cop, and he was talking about that
kind of racial profiling that you were where they would
just sit out and like, um, high crime neighborhoods and
pull over anybody white, and they were doing like that
for the same reasons. And he was saying it almost
never worked. He said that, Um, they also would have
(39:39):
like long dragnets on stretches of highway and they would
target Hispanic people in like low riders and he said
almost never worked. And he said that it's ineffective. Right,
it's also lazy policing, because he said, the better alternative
is to forget who who's what color, but just watch
for somebody be leaning in a car that's just pulled
(40:01):
over under the curb, or somebody making furtive moment movements. Right,
look for behavior that is actually linked to crime. Not
there's a white person in a black high crime neighborhood,
so therefore their their um, they're buying drugs, or even
even worse than that, there's a black person who lives
in a high crime neighborhood, they must be a drug dealer.
(40:24):
Let me go stop and frisk them. Um, that that
is just lazy policing. It's it's shorthand policing. Whereas if
you look for actual criminal behaviors you're going to have
you're going to be far more successful in busting the
bad guys. But even worse than it being like lazy
policing and ineffective in a lot of ways, this guy
pointed out, like, and I've seen this in many different places.
(40:47):
If you want to encourage mistrust and animosity toward the police,
scoop up every member in the community and take him
to jail, just on the off chance that you might
find something that sticks. If you want to set a
town off or any population off, do that for a
few years and see what happens. And that's what we've
(41:08):
been seeing time and time again. It's systematic. Yes, it's
systematic targeting and then a systematic reaction to uh. And
I mentioned cops a lot. If you're out there saying, well, yeah,
but on cops every time they pull over, that's a
shady black guy in the neighborhood he has something on
him and gets arrested. Or that white kid in the
bad neighborhood, he's there to buy drugs. It's a TV
(41:29):
show that's edited. Right. They don't show you the twenty
five stops where there is no crime because it would
not be a fun TV show. Exactly all right. So
I think people use that as like dummies use that
as proof sometimes, like watch cops Man every single time, right,
Like yeah, exactly right, Like all all Matthe users are
scrawny and white. So if you see a scrawny white guy,
(41:53):
matthe User, that's right, or marathon runner right, you know.
Uh So, obviously there can be h rogue cops, racist
cops that are doing their thing on a on a
singular level or with their partner. But it becomes a
real real problem. That's a problem. It becomes a super
real problem when it is part of the system. Uh
(42:16):
In which was the case with the New Jersey State
troopers in the late nineties. They did a ten year
study and found out that eighty percent of all traffic
stops were minorities over a ten year period, and they
found that there was a quote macho elitist culture within
the state trooper ranks end quote and um. Basically, even
(42:38):
though they officially said racial profiling isn't right, there was
a system in place where veterans would really coach and
teach the younger cops like this is how we're doing it,
and they were basically outed. Um. The authorities assigned federal
monitors to those troopers, and evidently by two thousand six
(43:00):
they had um a report suggested they had eliminated that
profiling completely. Yeah, which is good if that's the case,
you know, and I'm sure it is. New Jersey State
troopers are intimidating. You ever seen those guys, and they're
the ones that look like the military uniforms, which is
a whole other issue altogether. Well, I mean not like
M sixteen, but they talk about like like the dress blues, yeah,
(43:24):
boots and all that. Um. It turns out, Chuck, twenty
two states have lawns that band racial profiling of motorists,
which is great until you think that that also means
that states don't. It's kind of weird if you ask me.
Um and uh. I found a study also from Illinois
that found that in Illinois, black and Hispanic drivers were
(43:47):
two times likelier to be stopped and searched, but white
drivers were two times likelier to have contraband on them.
That weird. Not only weird, it's it's startling. How it's
it's not effective, Like there it's not leading to stopping crime, yeah,
which is sort of the point. Well. And then another
(44:10):
very controversial a bout of racial profiling that this country
went through came after September eleven, and in the aftermath
of that, you would remember every every month or two
you'd hear about someone who sometimes seeks who aren't even
Arab would get kicked off of like a plane or
something like that because they made the pilot nervous just
(44:32):
being there. Yeah, or T s A would would like
pat down. Um. Just proportionately more Arab people than white people. Um.
And now supposedly they based it on your behavior rather
than your race, so they're not racial profiling any longer, supposedly,
and it is. I have to say, I haven't heard
of one of those cases in a while, but it
(44:53):
seemed like for a while we're hearing about it all
the time. Yeah, I think there was a heightened sense
of everything back then. Of course right after. But so
this guy who used to manage the Ben Gurion Airport
in um Israel, Rafael Ron, he pointed out that that
was the exact opposite of what you want to do. Yeah.
He said, the worst tech in the history of this
airport was carried out by Japanese in the early seventies.
(45:17):
And he said, if we're focusing on an ethnic group,
then we're potentially missing someone that's about to do something bad, right,
which is exactly what happened in two at that airport.
Three members of the Japanese Red Army walked in with
machine guns and violin cases and just opened them up
and started opening fire on the crowd and killed I think,
(45:37):
um twenty six people. And they were hired by the PLO.
PLO knew that they could never walk into the the
Israeli airport, but the Japanese people would unnoticed. And so
this guy is saying the same thing like, if you're
really on the lookout for your enemy, like again, watch
for behavior, like do actual police work. Don't just use
(45:58):
this lazy shorthand stuff because it's gonna it's going to
take off this entire population and it's going to cause
in you to miss the real crime. Well, yeah, you've
got like it sounds like a movie. Them the cops
are at the airport and they detained this, uh, this
Arab guy who's like late for a business meeting. And
then in the in the same shot, the uh, the
(46:18):
white dude who was a Timothy McVeigh just walks right
behind him with the with the bomb on his body.
You realize you just described the subplot to Airplane Too,
did I? Yeah, remember Sonny Bono had the bomb. A
little mild mannered weasily dude. Yeah, that's right, And I
think he walks through while they're jacking up some like
(46:40):
I think plo dudes. Maybe that was subconscious. Wow, so
that's a profiling tip of the iceberg. I would call that. Oh, sure,
there's we could do a series of shows on this.
I'm sure. Uh. And if you want to know more
about profiling in the meantime, uh, type that word in
(47:00):
the search bar of your favorite search engine, and I'm
sure we'll bring up all manner of terrible stuff. You
can also type it in the search bar at how
stuff works dot com and it will bring up this
article by the Crabs. Or And since I said grabs there,
it's time for a listener mail. I'm gonna call this
wee f us, which is short for a water enema
(47:21):
from a water slide or from a slide. And this
is from a Tiffany last name withheld. She says uh.
As a kid, I remember being a chubby eleven year
old girl excited for her first trip to Disney World
in the water park then known as Typhoon. Lagoon had
a brand new Neon green with black polka up bathing suit.
It was all excited and Uh, to go down the Cowabunga,
(47:43):
a two fourteen foot tall water slide on a steep
sixty degree angle. They tell you to keep your ankles crossed,
but it's a little chubby, eleven year old girl. My
brain comprehended, but my little legs did not have the
strength for all two d and fourteen feet Thank you
see where this is headed. After plumbing the bottom, immediately
knew something was not right. I clinched my thighs as
(48:03):
tightly as I could, pulling out the massive water slide wedgie.
Not two steps from exiting the slide, though, a different
type of waterfall began to trickle down my legs. No
matter how tightly I clinched, I couldn't stop it. I
waddled up to a gorgeous Australian teenager employee and explain,
I need a rest room right away. Uh. With a
(48:24):
smug smile, he pointed all the way to the other
side of the lagoon, which was a long walk. Just
as I entered the bathroom, with all the force of
the water that had entered my body, it exited and
I single handedly shut down a small portion of Disney
that day. As embarrassing as this was. I was more
upset that my new bathing suit was ruined. My parents
were furious because they had to show out fifty dollars
(48:46):
for a new one Toronto. I hope I didn't gross
you out too bad. I think of it as a
cautionary lesson for your listeners. Thanks for all your hard work. UM,
I hope to see you guys sometime in Detroit and October.
Tiffany last name with held. We're just gonna call you
Tiffany poopy pants. We're coming to Detroit in October. Yes,
(49:09):
ostensibly ostensibly, and also we want to say Detroit in
advance of us coming. We're sorry for all of the
jokes we made about you, though. It'll all come home
to roost. See you in October. If you want to
tell us a gross story that happened when you were
a kid, like yeah, don't, just tell us something else
and tweet to us at s Y s K podcast,
Join us on Facebook dot com, slash Stuff you Should Know,
(49:31):
Send us an email to Stuff Podcast at how stuff
Works dot com, and join us our at home on
the web Stuff you Should Know dot com. Stuff you
Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For
more podcasts, my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, everybody, it's your bro Josh, and for this week's
s Y s K Selects, I've chosen our episode from
July of two thousand fifteen on the extraordinarily controversial practice
of profiling. You'll find out all the ins and outs
of profiling when it actually works, why it generally doesn't,
and why it's so just utterly offensive in general. Plus
(00:23):
you'll also get to hear Chuck classic Chuck after he
got back from adopting his daughter, and he gets to
thank everybody who helped him along the way. And it's
just very nice and heartwarming, especially considering the episode it's
attached to. So at any rate, I hope you enjoy
it and take good care, Doe do do? What was that?
(00:46):
That is a heraldic announcement? Yes, before we get going, Uh,
I know people on social media already know this stuff,
but I wanted to announce on the podcast that Chuck
here has opted a baby. Girl. Chuck has a baby,
A beautiful baby. Yeah she is, she's cuteie. She she
was ten days late, so she came out and not
(01:08):
looking like one of those little alien creatures. No, she
fully formed. Yes, what's her name, Chuck? Her name is
Ruby Rose Bryant Man. She's so cute and she was
born on your birthday. Yeah, isn't that crazy? One of
the better days of the year July fift But isn't
that remarkable? I think it is remarkable out of all
the days. And I was literally I was just like, well,
(01:29):
let me scroll through the celebrity birthday it's just, you know,
for giggles to see what you know, who shares her birthday.
About three quarters of the way down and saw your
face and I had forgotten it was your birthday because
I was just in another planet, and I like, immediately
I was like, Emily, you got to see this. You'll
never guess whose birthday she shares. So I think that's
really neat. Um. So anyway, uh, thank you everybody for
(01:53):
the support. Stop stop chuck, Yes on behalf of every stuff.
You should know. A listener out there, yes, congratulate since
to you and Emily. Do you feel like you can
speak for them? Yes? Of course, Okay, because there might
be one guy out there he's like, I don't care,
he can stop listening right now. But I do have
some people to thank. Um. This happened in Tulsa, Oklahoma,
(02:14):
and Um. We stayed in this little area called East Village.
It was literally like a block in this loft and
Airbnb loft and above pizza place and across street from
a bar. And I'll bet you have some people to think. Yeah,
these people like took us in as family. It was
like literally every day, you know, for ten days late,
(02:34):
we're out there two days early. So for like two
weeks they were like, what's going on? You know, where's
this baby? So I want to thank how just bend
which you would love to do? This cocktail bar right
up your alley. It sounds like you said cocktail bar. Yeah.
And not only do they make like fresh you know,
fresh ingredients, but they don't have like a thing of
cucumber sliced uff. They uncumber as needed nice and you
(02:58):
know the jalapeno you would have. They were doing it
right there. So Jamie and Nate and Nicole and Ian
the chef at I've just been it was the stuff
you should know. Man. Oh yeah, he came out and
he was like is it who I think it is?
How fortuitous? How fortuitous? And then uh, East Village Bohemian Pizzeria.
We stayed above this place and they were great. Did
the smell drive you nuts all the time? But we
(03:20):
ate a lot of people. Okay, Uh, so Pat there
and my boy Max, Max and I really hit it off.
Were like genuine life pals down uh and he at
the end, I go to leave and I just give
him a letter saying thank you and here's my contact info.
And then like p s. By the way, I have
a podcast. He's an ornithologist, he has his master's, but
(03:41):
he's not doing that right now. You know, he's running
this pizza joint and just a really smart guys, Like
I could think you might like this podcast. I do.
He comes up and tells me afterwards, this is like
our parting words. He was like, dude, your chuck. He's like, really,
I had a weird like thing. He said, I knew
that you seemed for Millier, but I didn't want to
say anything, like even watched the TV show. Oh wow.
(04:03):
So Max was like, that's probably why I didn't want
to say anything. Yeah, he didn't want to bring it up.
So a huge thanks to those guys. And then um
our caseworker Jessica Um also a stuff you should know
fan that is amazing because at the end of our
first call like a month ago. She went, all right,
we've got business done. I have something I have to admit.
(04:25):
It's like, I'm a huge fan man. So it was weird.
It was like the stuff you should know, nation sort
of caring for me. Yeah, and all of the people
like you. You put a picture of Ruby Rose up, yeah,
and like broke the internet. It was it was people
love newborns. Well yeah, but people love Chuck's newborn. Yeah.
But you know it could have been a puppy and
probably gotten don I don't think that was very sweet. Yeah,
(04:50):
so that meant a lot to me. But Jessica and
her two sons, Hugh and Henry, I know they are
listeners to they are awesome boys, and she really took
care of us. So I'm glad it worked out like
a man three weeks sin Tulsa. It was a weird
and stressful and but it sounds wonderful. Yeah, good start though. Yeah,
I mean we were in there. Emily helped deliver this baby,
and I was in the man zone right behind. I
(05:11):
am so proud of you guys. I'm so happy for
you guys. I also want to say Jerry is not
allowed to talk. Jerry feels the exact same way. She's, well,
we could take the duck tapeall for today, maybe, Jerry,
how do you feel? Yes, she said, yeah, she agrees.
She just spelled out on the speaking spelled called them police. Anyway,
(05:32):
this is not going to become the New Baby show. Um,
she will probably disappear from uh your lives. But just
know that we're all doing great and thank you for
the support. All right, nice job, Chuck, thanks man, congratulates,
Thank you, sir. Welcome to Stuff you should know, a
production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
(05:59):
I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and Jerry,
which means it's time for listener mayo. Oh wait, wow
about that, I'm brain to start. That's why we leave
that in there. Do you want to ye? Or maybe
I should just read listener mail. We can go home. Okay,
it's a build your own episode. Yeah, it's a mad libs.
(06:23):
Just fill it in. I'm profiling, Yeah, styling and profiling.
I'm pretty excited. Are you styling and profile? Well? This
is a that's a different thing. This yeah, okay, I
think that has to do with um, like photography, no
think styling and profile and just means you're living large. Yeah,
you're fashionable and hip. Oh gotcha. Yeah, No, this is different. Yeah,
(06:49):
and this is a grab star article, which is the
mark of quality, as we all know it is. It's
refreshing to see and it is Um, we should just
say right off the bat, profiling is a super divisive topic.
Oh yeah, Um, there are many ways to look at it,
and all they make sense sometimes on both sides. It's
a tough one. Yeah, so that's my caveat. It's divisive.
(07:13):
So um. One thing that grabs her immediately points out
is like, not all profiling is profiling, like you think
of Sure, we're going to talk about all the different ways, right,
There's plenty of accepted forms of profiling. And the first one, um,
is the standard all points bulletin or be on the lookout, Right,
(07:35):
that's the kind that no one has a problem with.
No one does, Yeah, because that you you know what
that is. That's uh, silver toyota to coma with spotted
today and white male in his mid forties with spiky
hair and uh sort of chubby with a big gross
gray black beard has committed a crime and he's wearing
(07:55):
cargo shorts and flip flops. Oh, I see you're describing
yourself profiler, but you put in their white male. And
the reason that's what I am. The reason why people
don't have a problem with this is twofold one. A
crime has already been committed. Yeah, okay, I committed a crime.
So the police work is finding a perpetrator that has
(08:17):
already committed a crime. And secondly, that profile is based
on eyewitness accounts descriptions of the person. That's right, So
that profile is being used to track down a specific person.
Has nothing to do with anybody else. Who's white, has
nothing to do with anybody else, who drives a silver Tacoma,
(08:40):
has nothing to do with any of that jazz. It's
just this guy is suspected of having committed this crime
and he looks like this. Yeah you hear. You see
it on the news every night. Yes, you know that's
not just cops that use this. The news will say
the suspect is, uh, you know, wearing a handsome, checkered Oxford,
(09:01):
button down, whispy hair, and white, straight teeth exactly, so
they're describing you, Oh you think my teeth are nice?
I didn't say that. I said they were white and straight.
That's nice if that's what you're into. This is coming
from a guy who just found out he's about to
have to lose his front tooth all over again, start over. Yeah, man,
(09:24):
that sucks. Which I know there are some fans out
there that are laughing Aaron Cooper that toothless Chuck is
coming back in the house for it. It's really just him. Yeah,
he's the only one whould be jerky enough to laugh
at that. That kind of misfortune, you know, I know,
I'm sorry to bring that up. I'm just still reeling
from that discovery. It stinks. You think you get an
(09:45):
implant and it's for life. Yeah, especially when they sell
you a lifetime implant. Yeah, exactly. Alright. So, uh, like
you said, including descriptions and skin color is not controversial
this case. No, it's in. Everybody from the FEDS to
the local police are okay with that. Yeah, they're all
(10:06):
in on it. And and not just the police, like
everybody's like, yeah, this is fine, this makes sense. Sure,
not a thing that's right. The next one is psychological profiling,
and this is when you don't have a lot of
physical evidence or you don't have an eyewitness, and you're
trying to fill in the blanks and make some good
guesses billy blanks based on I remember that guy. Uh,
(10:28):
some good guesses based on like the crime scene or
just the circumstances of the crime. Yes, again, a crime
has already taken place, and you're trying to figure out
who solved it, and you're taking committed it. You're trying
to figure out who's gonna solve it alright, alright, which
you figure out the same moment when as you do
(10:49):
when you figure out who committed it. It's interesting mind bending.
Right Twice you've jumped to the end of something. It's
so weird. I don't know what that means. I think
you know what it means. Uh. Sometimes they are vague,
but wait, I hadn't finished my thought. Okay, I didn't
mess it up that bad. Let me go back and finish. Um.
The point is it's drawn from available evidence, Yeah, clues,
(11:12):
clues that you're bringing together to try to draw up
an idea of who did this, right exactly, Okay, So
sometimes it can be vague, but if you watch TV
and movies, um, it is probably not how it really
goes down, but it's super specific when you see it
in fiction, you know, like I think this, uh as
(11:33):
a man who was beaten as a child, and he
probably lives alone or Sherlock Holmes was really good at
that kind of thing. It's a good point. Love Sherlock Holmes. Yeah,
that's good stuff. Uh did you know he was a
morphine and cocaine addict? Really? Yeah? Well I guess you
need both in like the original stories? Really yeah? Oh
(11:53):
like in the books. Wow, not the real guy right,
as I think, Yeah, are you sure you're not just
thinking of Robert Downey Jr. I mean I've read the
Originals and he like does he shoots morphing in it?
And and Watson is not very happy with the whole thing.
(12:14):
Yeah he's straight edge. No, he's not straight edge, but
he doesn't he's not a junkie, you know. But he
didn't care. He was like, Watson, wash my toes. So
I can between them all right, Moving on to predictive profiling, Well, yeah,
this is where it starts to get a little messy. Yeah,
I can get a little controversial. Even psychological profiling is
(12:37):
a little controversial. I have to say, chuck, like, it's
not a proven, tried and true thing. It's as much
a guessing game as anything else. Um, But it's not
nearly still as controversial as predictive profiling, because now you're
trying to say, these people will probably commit a crime,
right not not not civil sorry issue, big time, big time. Um.
(13:03):
Police officers do great work. Ideally, they're not just reacting
to committed crimes, but they are um driving around the
neighborhood looking for a suspicious person that might be about
to commit a crime, to prevent crime, to prevent a crime,
which is tough to do. You know, it's right place,
right time in most cases. And you use the word
ideally right ideally yes. Um. So even when this happens,
(13:28):
this Supreme Court has roundly um sided with police officers
um as profiling for justification. So it's legally speaking, okay,
it's on the books. It's on the books. So so
give an example of the kind of profiling that's okay
to be used. Um. The one of the article is great. Um.
(13:50):
Let's say you're in uh, South Florida, and you're you're
traveling up and you're in a it's four a m.
And you're in a rented black suv with tinted windows,
and you have the spare tire in the back seat removed. Um,
I'm sorry, it's it's removed from the trunk area. It's
(14:11):
in the backseat, just sitting in the back seat. Might
be might be a drug trafficker, right, And the cop
is basing this on something like, um, a profile, Yeah,
but a profile based on previous experiences with other drug
dealers in the same area. Because that's a really big
one right there. Like um. One of the things for
(14:33):
using profiles successfully is it has it's it has it
has to be over a certain period of time and
associated with a certain place. So you use Miami and
say Miami, right, if you saw that person and you
would say, well, this is probably a cocaine trafficker based
(14:54):
on all the other dealings with cocaine traffickers who who
used the same transportation. M Yeah, And we should point
out the tires removed, because you can then hide the
drugs where their spare tire went, and then that's why
the tires in the back seat. Yes, so these are
red flags. But if you're like in um Wyoming in
two thousand fifteen, and you read an article about how
(15:18):
that held true in Miami. That is not necessarily a
justifiable transference of profiling because it exists in a different time,
in a different place. That's right. So, like you said,
this can be a this can be high level policy, UM,
it can be unofficial policy. It can be just merely
(15:39):
experienced as a police officer. That's something you've encountered from
time to time and basically to determine if this profile
justifies a search warrantless search that is, in other words,
you haven't gone to the judge and as applied for
a warrant and had them review it and all that
stuff or rubber stamp it, which we'll get to. Um.
(16:00):
It's got a stand up in court, right, and so
you gotta be careful as a cop you do. Um,
you have to have what's called an articulable suspicion, which
was established by a nineteen case or Supreme Court ruling
Terry versus Ohio. And the Supreme Court said, and this
is actually from a Matt ti abi Um article. It's
(16:22):
really really worth reading. It's called Why Baltimore Blew Up.
It was in Rolling Stone like a month or two ago.
It's a very good article. Um. But he talks about
this terry case led to what are called terry stops,
whereas if a cop has a suspicion that they can
put into words meaning it's not just a hunch, um,
(16:45):
that somebody is is either just committed a crime or
going to commit a crime, that that is probable cause,
and it's browns first search. Yeah, And here's a had
a great example here, like let's say the cop and
it would say this, the suspect of pure nervous made
several contradictory statements. In the back seat, I saw a
(17:05):
shoebox full of old film canisters, which drug carriers commonly use.
The car smell like air freshener spray, which is used
to cover up the smell of drugs. And I spotted
them driving slowly up and down a block that I
know is frequented by drug dealers. Right, that's called good
police work in court. Right, that's called like a prosecutor's
dream copah um. And if you if you go back
(17:28):
and you notice all of that stuff, all of these
things are based on. So a block that he knows
to be frequented by drug dealers, thirty five millimeter canisters.
Maybe he read a Police Benevolent Association newsletter article about that, Um,
all of this stuff together um becomes what's called cumulative similarities.
(17:48):
And supposedly a Florida Highway patrolman named Bob Vogel is
the first guy to put this down on paper. He
was very controversial, which is, you take all of these
different things and put them together, and you can form
a profile, and you can use that to pull somebody
over and then you know, eventually search their car if
(18:09):
you're a Florida Highway patrolment. Right. So, UM, you've got
you've got all of these. Uh. You have the terry
stops which are used for broken windows policing and just
for pulling people over, but they require an articulable suspicion,
but they can be based on where called cumulative similarities,
which is a profile. Either like that your police department
(18:32):
is saying be on the lookout for people driving with
their spare tire in the backseat, um at this time
of night. So far, this has all been upheld by
the Supreme Court. That's right. But there's a very very
fine line, um that is frequently crossed, and we will
(18:54):
talk about how that runs a foul of the Constitution
right after this, all right, Josh, before we took a break,
(19:23):
you mentioned something called the Constitution, And there are a
couple of amendments that come into play when you're talking
about search and seizure, probable cause profiling, and they are
the fourth and fourteenth Amendments. The fourth reads in whole
the right of the people to be secure in their
persons is that JFK. I went into him Whitston Churchill. Sure,
(19:46):
it's both houses papers and effects against unreasonable searches and
seizures shall not be violated, and no warrant shall issue,
but upon probable costs supported by oath or affirmation, and
particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons
of things to be seized. Right, So there's some big
words in there, big big like money words like, uh,
(20:09):
it's a protection against unreasonable searches and seizures, which means,
as far as the Supreme Court's concerned, some cops just
can't say I'm gonna push you up against the wall
and pay you down for no reason whatsoever. Yeah, Or
I'm gonna pull you over for no reason and I'm
gonna search your car on the side of the road
(20:30):
for no reason, um does not happen, right of course
not sure? So, Um, that's the Fourth Amendment, right, And uh,
there's another big term in there. It's called probable cause,
like you have to have and if from a lot
of people say that that night Terry versus Ohio ruling
(20:50):
is just too broad in articulable suspicion, like what is
that you know? Um, But even still there's there, So
there has to be some sort of probable cause. And
a lot of the times, as we'll see, it's just
from uh, some something out in plain side or something
like that. But there's a big struggle over what constitutes
(21:13):
probable cause. But the point is the Fourth Amendment says
you have to have probable cause or else it's an
unreasonable search, that's right. And uh, a police officer in
most cases has to go get a warrant for like
the search of a home or something. Um. And there's
a whole issue of rubber stamping warrants these days of
course that like the judge may not even really review that.
(21:33):
It's just a formality, right or for anybody who's watched
it's enough Law and Order episodes, all you have to
do is go I smell pot. Do you smell pot?
Wink wink, and then kick the door in, Yeah, exactly,
because that's you can't prove that the cop didn't think
you smell pot exactly. Now there's the threat of perjury,
of perjuring himself on the stand. But I imagine at
(21:54):
least as far as like Brisco and Green are concerned,
they're hoping that they're gonna find so gang buster overwhelming
evidence that everybody's going to forget about the fake smell
of pot. Um. So, there was actually a case which
relates to probable calls called the US v. Sokolow that
made it all the way to the Scotus And um,
(22:17):
did you read about that case? I did. It's um
it was a nine. Well that was when the ruling
was right. Yeah. So what happened was the d A
arrested a guy at the Honolulu airport found over a
thousand grams of cocaine in his carry on. It was
a key he had aw and he paid. Uh. They
the agents knew all this going into it. This is
(22:38):
why they arrested him. He paid bucks for round trip
tickets with a roll of twenty dollar bills. He traveled
under a name that did not match the name under
which his telephone was listed. Um, he was originally going
to Miami, and this yeah, because la Flag at the time,
he only stayed in Miami for two days, even though
(23:00):
a round trip flight from Honolulu takes twenty hours, so
a very quick trip and no others. He was almost
flying as long as he was there in Miami, he
met up with a man named Tony Montana. Apparently he
appeared nervous and he did not check his baggage, and
the district court denied motion to suppress the evidence, said
(23:22):
it was justifiable. The Court of Appeals disagreed and overturned that,
and then eventually it went to the Supreme Court and
they said no, it's okay because they had what was
quote a totality of evidence. So here's the thing, though,
the thing that makes that so groundbreaking. And nowadays, I mean,
we were raised under so clow Right, it seems like
(23:42):
this is just the norm. But it was a ground
breaking case of the time because nothing none of that.
It's not against the law to pay your plane ticket
with cash, it's not against the law to not check
your bags. At the time, it wasn't against the law
to travel under an assumed name. Yeah, and I don't
think at the time it was against a law to
go to Miami just for two right, exactly, none of
this is against the law. And so if you if
(24:05):
if you just followed the strict interpretation the law up
to that point there was they couldn't bust this guy.
Even though when they busted him they found a kilo
of coke, like they knew they would in his bag. Um,
there wasn't enough there. In the Supreme Court said you
know what, we we think that when you put all
that stuff together, there is enough there. Now what constitutes
(24:26):
that totality? Is it two pieces of evidence? Is that
one thing? Um? You know, how much does it take
to profile? But what they were saying in so colo was, yes,
the the stuff that you've seen from other proven criminals
applied to somebody else who you don't yet fully know
as a criminal is enough for you to bust them
(24:47):
and see if you're right. Yeah, again, it's just like
kind of groundbreaking. He didn't go straight to jail. They
looked in his bag, yes, but it's do you have
the right to look in the bag? Is what it
comes down. And they were saying that there. The Supreme
Court's interpretation is this stands up to the Fourth Amendment. Yeah,
and I met the guy went to Miami for two days.
(25:09):
Kiss your civil rights goodbye. Uh So with the fourteenth Amendment, UM,
it states in part that no State shall make or
enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities
of citizens of the US. Uh I think everybody wants
the Kennedy voice against. Uh. I think any time you
read amendments from the Bill of Rights, you have to
do it like that. Nah shall any state deprive any
(25:31):
person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law,
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction equal protection
of the laws. So this one applies. You might say, well,
we've got the Fourth we don't need the fourteenth. Fourteen
says look, man, you can't just bust somebody without this again,
(25:51):
due process of law. And we have a due process
of law. And what the Supreme Court did with cases
like so below and with cases like Terry versus Ohio UM,
is they said profiling is part of the due process
of law. That's right. So one thing that they have
gone back to again and again and again and again
(26:13):
is that if race is factored in and almost any circumstances.
There are circumstances that is where racial profiling is allowed
in police work. But for the most part, if you're
basing your suspicions of criminal wrongdoing on race largely or
in part, then that is not That runs a foul
(26:36):
of the fourth and the fourteenth Amendments, and you're not
allowed to do that. Yeah. The grabs Her points out
that cops, unless you are have an a p b
out on a Hispanic mail or a black male, then
you're supposed to be color blind as a cop, exactly,
all right, You're supposed to be supposed to So you know, um,
(26:56):
the Eric Garner case, the Michael Brown case, UM, all
of these cases where you know, black mails were basically
stopped from either doing a petty offense or just stop
based on suspicion because they were black in their neighborhood. UM.
It prompted the executive branch to release a new set
of guidance, like an updated set of guidelines for racial profiling,
(27:22):
and they were they basically spelled out examples. Um. I
posted to it on the podcast page for this episode,
but they spelled out examples for when that when it's appropriate,
And they said, if it's an all points bulletin for
any police yes, Um, if you're traffic or if you're
patrolling and looking for criminals and you're basing it on race,
(27:45):
absolutely not allowed. But they said they gave an example
where like, um, if, for example, you are looking for
somebody who carried out a hit on a gang leader,
and you know there's this rival gang and this right
of old gang is probably the ones who carried out
this hit, and every member of this rival gang is Hispanic,
(28:08):
that you could use that as part of the profile
and searching for your suspect. That it just makes sense
in that case, right, Not because you don't look for
the little old white lady, right exactly. Yeah, because it's
that specific. But you wouldn't cast a dragnet over all Hispanics.
It would be Hispanic men related to this gang. You
see what I'm saying. I think the lesson here is
(28:29):
get the little old white lady to do the hit.
It's been done before, and you're golden. It has been
done before, which is one of the one of the
problems with racial profiling is it's distracting. Yeah, you know,
we'll get to that. But that's definitely true. Um, and
you know when you watch cops, it's not always like
(28:50):
sometimes that I will see on the TV show. They
will pull over. They'll stop a white kid, like suburban
white kid that's in a bad neighborhood, because they'll be like, well,
he's he doesn't below here. Yeah, he's probably buying drugs
because this is a street where people buy drugs. There's
a crack house down there. And this guy is from
the county, uh, you know, the white suburban county out
(29:10):
in the suburbs. Let's pull him over. That's racial profile.
That's the same same thing but different. Well it's the
same thing, yeah, but you know what I mean. Um,
all right, so let's talk about probable cause analysis. This
is good. There's, um, during a traffic stop, there's there's
several things a cop can do and each one requires
different kinds of cause in order for it to be legal. Um. Yeah, Again,
(29:38):
they aren't supposed to just pull you over for no reason.
They're not supposed to. You're supposed to fit some sort
of either you broke a traffic law or you fit
a profile that that has been agreed upon. Is okay, Yeah,
but a cop to pull over for. And again we're
not knocking police officers hard work, and mostly they do
(30:00):
rate work. But a cop can pull someone over for
anything and say, like, when you made that turn, you
swung a little too wide, or you hit that yellow line,
and um, so I'm suspicious that you're drunk, like you know.
Like that, you can almost invent a reason to pull
someone over and under any circumstances. So let's just start
(30:22):
with that. When you pull over a car, UM, Supposedly,
to pull someone over, legally, you need to have witnessed
a violation UM. Or you can run the plates and
see if their cars stolen or if there's a warrant
out for the owner. That's a big thing you see
on cops all the time. UM. And the cop can
make a stop as long as they can describe specific
(30:44):
factors that fit the profile. Right car, car full of
black kids. Not okay to just pull that car over,
not for that reason. But if they say, like I
saw um smoke coming out the windows. Um, they were
driving around aradically and it smelled like pot smoke from
the road, then that is a reason Number two. When
(31:09):
you go to a question the suspect, that's moving things
up a notch. Uh, you don't have to get a
ticket when you get pulled over. You might just get
questioned if you seem suspicious. Um, and they can you know,
they'll shine that light in the car and they'll look
at everything that they can see without actually searching the car. Yeah,
and that's well within their right what's called plane view exactly.
So if you have like a bag of pots sitting
(31:30):
out on the front seat with you and the cops
sees it, that just opened your entire car and your
person up to a search. Yes, and you that means
you are super high because now now there's probable cause.
But if you have long hair and you have an
open half gallon of ice cream next to you, still
not enough. My race is suspicions, but that still should
(31:51):
not be enough to um give them probable cause to
search your car. Well, I got profiled in Texas. Me
and my best friend Brett many years ago I to college,
did a big out west trip for two months and
the cops said he didn't put He said he pulled
us over because I didn't have my seat belt on. Um,
why he really pulled us over? Us because we were
too scruffy looking guys with tattoos and beards in a
(32:15):
Volkswagen van. Um, and he searched the van. He asked
if he could, and we said he could, And he
searched the van for like an hour on the side
of the road. Long story short, chucked in five years,
five hard ones. No, we didn't get caught with anything,
and we got away. And he basically was mad at
us that he wasted his time, and the last thing
(32:36):
he said was a get out of Texas. So and
I said, I'm trying to sir. But the point is
that that cop asked you if he could search your car,
right he did, and that if you give consent, then
you were waving your Fourth Amendment rights. But you don't
have to give consent. Not many people know this. And
there's some states that make the cop tell you you
(32:57):
are allowed to refuse the search of your car. Um.
Not all states do. I've never heard it either. Um. Instead,
the cop just says, can I search your car in
the most intimidating voice possible, And most people will just
fold like a house of cards, um, because they're scared
of the cop or whatever. Even if they do have
something in there, they're not going to be like, Nope,
(33:18):
you're not allowed to search the car. So the point
where the cop asks if he can search the car
is usually in the absence of something that nothing in
plain sight, but also that cops suspicious suspicions are raised.
He just can't quite prove it. So I'll ask you
if you can search your car. If you say no,
(33:39):
the cop can say, well, I'm I'm going to detain
you temporarily. Right Basically, I can go, I will wait
it out, I can get a warrant. I'm gonna search
that car, right, Okay. If he wants to get a warrant,
that's different. Like what he's doing now is trying to
do everything he can to search your car without having
to go to the trouble of getting a warrant without
(34:01):
probable cause like seeing a bag of pot in the
front seat. Right time was that they could detain you
for up to like ninety minutes while they called the
canine unit out, And the canine unit has been shown
to if the canine unit sniffs around your car, that's
not an unreasonable search. And if the canine smells something
or indicates that there are drugs present, then that does
(34:23):
provide probable cause for a full search under the Fourth Amendment.
Right they change that. Yeah. Um. In April this past April,
the Supreme Court had decision that said, no, you really
can't make people wait around while the drug dog comes out.
They're like, we're not opposed to that, but the point
of a traffic stop is to promote and encourage traffic safety,
(34:46):
not to cast a drug drag net for drug couriers. Um.
And you you cannot detain people without a reasonable suspicion
to wait for the drug dog to come out. If
they tell you you can't, they you're not allowed to
search their car. That's good. I wonder if it had
anything to do with um. If you look up online,
(35:07):
there are ways that cops can make a drug dog signal,
basically by how they're handling the dog, and there's a
lot of suspicion, and they'll play him side by side,
like you see this cops doing it right, And if
you see this cop, watch this little thing he does.
Then the dog barks. And basically there was a lot
of speculation that bad cops would use the well not that,
(35:30):
but yeah, essentially making the dog signal a false alert
just to give them reason. Well, the dog barked, So
now I can I can search your car or and
maybe it all started because I meant to bring this
up a second ago. Suspicion can be they seem nervous, right,
Like everyone's nervous when a cop pulls them over, even
if you haven't done anything. It's just nerve wracking. It's
(35:52):
like white coat blood pressure. Yeah. I mean, like a
lot of people's blood pressure is high at the doctor
because they're nervous about, you know, being at the doctor.
There's someone's standing at my window with a gun, right
Like it's nerve wracking. Yeah. So the Supreme Court said, no,
you guys, you have to have a reasonable suspicion to
detain somebody on the side of the road that they've
committed another crime. It can't just be I'm pulling you over.
(36:15):
You have to wait for ninety minutes while the drug
dog comes out so I can bust you or try
to bust you or whatever. That was. That was a
big deal that they came up with that. Yeah, we
didn't in Texas. We didn't have the drug dog come out,
but we were I felt like we were on the
side of the road for an hour while he dug
through that entire van um just you could tell he
was he really wanted to find something. Yeah, all right,
(37:04):
let's open the canib worms, my friend. Racial profiling. It's
a big, big deal in this country. It's a problem,
and um let's talk about it. Okay, that's good. Uh.
So that is basically it's a form of predicted profiling,
uh where one of, if not the only factor, is
(37:24):
skin color. Right that like, um oh, let's say that, um,
Mexican people are way more um prone to sell meth.
So let's go hang out at that Hispanic neighborhood. Right,
but there's a couple of things wrong with that, um,
and that is racial profiling. Some people actually defend it, saying, well,
(37:51):
if you look at prison statistics, Hispanics are far more
likely to be imprisoned for drug crimes than say, white
p bowl, so that makes sense, right right, Okay. The
other saying right right, I'm playing along here. The other
side of the coin is that you can use those
same statistics to point to the idea that Hispanics and
(38:15):
Blacks are disproportionately targeted for drug busts than other people. Right,
and so the same this is an ed points out
This is one of the problems with this debate is
both sides used the same statistics differently to prove their point. Yeah.
Another thing he points out is that people that say
(38:37):
some people will say that it is institutionalized racism and
its harassment of minority Yeah, straight up. People who defend
against it say, cops harass criminals, and if those criminals
happen to be minorities, t s. That's not our fault.
And I think that's just the reality of the world
we live in. Even further, there's people who say, yes,
(38:58):
racial profiling is the thing, and it's an effective tool
of law enforcements. Sorry, welcome the reality. Um. Those people
usually have their arguments demolished pretty quickly, including by professionals.
I read this UM this interview or well an article
about the former chief chief of police of Palo Alto
(39:18):
around San Francisco area, and UM, he also grew up
as an Oakland cop, and he was talking about that
kind of racial profiling that you were where they would
just sit out and like, um, high crime neighborhoods and
pull over anybody white, and they were doing like that
for the same reasons. And he was saying it almost
never worked. He said that, Um, they also would have
(39:39):
like long dragnets on stretches of highway and they would
target Hispanic people in like low riders and he said
almost never worked. And he said that it's ineffective. Right,
it's also lazy policing, because he said, the better alternative
is to forget who who's what color, but just watch
for somebody be leaning in a car that's just pulled
(40:01):
over under the curb, or somebody making furtive moment movements. Right,
look for behavior that is actually linked to crime. Not
there's a white person in a black high crime neighborhood,
so therefore their their um, they're buying drugs, or even
even worse than that, there's a black person who lives
in a high crime neighborhood, they must be a drug dealer.
(40:24):
Let me go stop and frisk them. Um, that that
is just lazy policing. It's it's shorthand policing. Whereas if
you look for actual criminal behaviors you're going to have
you're going to be far more successful in busting the
bad guys. But even worse than it being like lazy
policing and ineffective in a lot of ways, this guy
pointed out, like, and I've seen this in many different places.
(40:47):
If you want to encourage mistrust and animosity toward the police,
scoop up every member in the community and take him
to jail, just on the off chance that you might
find something that sticks. If you want to set a
town off or any population off, do that for a
few years and see what happens. And that's what we've
(41:08):
been seeing time and time again. It's systematic. Yes, it's
systematic targeting and then a systematic reaction to uh. And
I mentioned cops a lot. If you're out there saying, well, yeah,
but on cops every time they pull over, that's a
shady black guy in the neighborhood he has something on
him and gets arrested. Or that white kid in the
bad neighborhood, he's there to buy drugs. It's a TV
(41:29):
show that's edited. Right. They don't show you the twenty
five stops where there is no crime because it would
not be a fun TV show. Exactly all right. So
I think people use that as like dummies use that
as proof sometimes, like watch cops Man every single time, right,
Like yeah, exactly right, Like all all Matthe users are
scrawny and white. So if you see a scrawny white guy,
(41:53):
matthe User, that's right, or marathon runner right, you know.
Uh So, obviously there can be h rogue cops, racist
cops that are doing their thing on a on a
singular level or with their partner. But it becomes a
real real problem. That's a problem. It becomes a super
real problem when it is part of the system. Uh
(42:16):
In which was the case with the New Jersey State
troopers in the late nineties. They did a ten year
study and found out that eighty percent of all traffic
stops were minorities over a ten year period, and they
found that there was a quote macho elitist culture within
the state trooper ranks end quote and um. Basically, even
(42:38):
though they officially said racial profiling isn't right, there was
a system in place where veterans would really coach and
teach the younger cops like this is how we're doing it,
and they were basically outed. Um. The authorities assigned federal
monitors to those troopers, and evidently by two thousand six
(43:00):
they had um a report suggested they had eliminated that
profiling completely. Yeah, which is good if that's the case,
you know, and I'm sure it is. New Jersey State
troopers are intimidating. You ever seen those guys, and they're
the ones that look like the military uniforms, which is
a whole other issue altogether. Well, I mean not like
M sixteen, but they talk about like like the dress blues, yeah,
(43:24):
boots and all that. Um. It turns out, Chuck, twenty
two states have lawns that band racial profiling of motorists,
which is great until you think that that also means
that states don't. It's kind of weird if you ask me.
Um and uh. I found a study also from Illinois
that found that in Illinois, black and Hispanic drivers were
(43:47):
two times likelier to be stopped and searched, but white
drivers were two times likelier to have contraband on them.
That weird. Not only weird, it's it's startling. How it's
it's not effective, Like there it's not leading to stopping crime, yeah,
which is sort of the point. Well. And then another
(44:10):
very controversial a bout of racial profiling that this country
went through came after September eleven, and in the aftermath
of that, you would remember every every month or two
you'd hear about someone who sometimes seeks who aren't even
Arab would get kicked off of like a plane or
something like that because they made the pilot nervous just
(44:32):
being there. Yeah, or T s A would would like
pat down. Um. Just proportionately more Arab people than white people. Um.
And now supposedly they based it on your behavior rather
than your race, so they're not racial profiling any longer, supposedly,
and it is. I have to say, I haven't heard
of one of those cases in a while, but it
(44:53):
seemed like for a while we're hearing about it all
the time. Yeah, I think there was a heightened sense
of everything back then. Of course right after. But so
this guy who used to manage the Ben Gurion Airport
in um Israel, Rafael Ron, he pointed out that that
was the exact opposite of what you want to do. Yeah.
He said, the worst tech in the history of this
airport was carried out by Japanese in the early seventies.
(45:17):
And he said, if we're focusing on an ethnic group,
then we're potentially missing someone that's about to do something bad, right,
which is exactly what happened in two at that airport.
Three members of the Japanese Red Army walked in with
machine guns and violin cases and just opened them up
and started opening fire on the crowd and killed I think,
(45:37):
um twenty six people. And they were hired by the PLO.
PLO knew that they could never walk into the the
Israeli airport, but the Japanese people would unnoticed. And so
this guy is saying the same thing like, if you're
really on the lookout for your enemy, like again, watch
for behavior, like do actual police work. Don't just use
(45:58):
this lazy shorthand stuff because it's gonna it's going to
take off this entire population and it's going to cause
in you to miss the real crime. Well, yeah, you've
got like it sounds like a movie. Them the cops
are at the airport and they detained this, uh, this
Arab guy who's like late for a business meeting. And
then in the in the same shot, the uh, the
(46:18):
white dude who was a Timothy McVeigh just walks right
behind him with the with the bomb on his body.
You realize you just described the subplot to Airplane Too,
did I? Yeah, remember Sonny Bono had the bomb. A
little mild mannered weasily dude. Yeah, that's right, And I
think he walks through while they're jacking up some like
(46:40):
I think plo dudes. Maybe that was subconscious. Wow, so
that's a profiling tip of the iceberg. I would call that. Oh, sure,
there's we could do a series of shows on this.
I'm sure. Uh. And if you want to know more
about profiling in the meantime, uh, type that word in
(47:00):
the search bar of your favorite search engine, and I'm
sure we'll bring up all manner of terrible stuff. You
can also type it in the search bar at how
stuff works dot com and it will bring up this
article by the Crabs. Or And since I said grabs there,
it's time for a listener mail. I'm gonna call this
wee f us, which is short for a water enema
(47:21):
from a water slide or from a slide. And this
is from a Tiffany last name withheld. She says uh.
As a kid, I remember being a chubby eleven year
old girl excited for her first trip to Disney World
in the water park then known as Typhoon. Lagoon had
a brand new Neon green with black polka up bathing suit.
It was all excited and Uh, to go down the Cowabunga,
(47:43):
a two fourteen foot tall water slide on a steep
sixty degree angle. They tell you to keep your ankles crossed,
but it's a little chubby, eleven year old girl. My
brain comprehended, but my little legs did not have the
strength for all two d and fourteen feet Thank you
see where this is headed. After plumbing the bottom, immediately
knew something was not right. I clinched my thighs as
(48:03):
tightly as I could, pulling out the massive water slide wedgie.
Not two steps from exiting the slide, though, a different
type of waterfall began to trickle down my legs. No
matter how tightly I clinched, I couldn't stop it. I
waddled up to a gorgeous Australian teenager employee and explain,
I need a rest room right away. Uh. With a
(48:24):
smug smile, he pointed all the way to the other
side of the lagoon, which was a long walk. Just
as I entered the bathroom, with all the force of
the water that had entered my body, it exited and
I single handedly shut down a small portion of Disney
that day. As embarrassing as this was. I was more
upset that my new bathing suit was ruined. My parents
were furious because they had to show out fifty dollars
(48:46):
for a new one Toronto. I hope I didn't gross
you out too bad. I think of it as a
cautionary lesson for your listeners. Thanks for all your hard work. UM,
I hope to see you guys sometime in Detroit and October.
Tiffany last name with held. We're just gonna call you
Tiffany poopy pants. We're coming to Detroit in October. Yes,
(49:09):
ostensibly ostensibly, and also we want to say Detroit in
advance of us coming. We're sorry for all of the
jokes we made about you, though. It'll all come home
to roost. See you in October. If you want to
tell us a gross story that happened when you were
a kid, like yeah, don't, just tell us something else
and tweet to us at s Y s K podcast,
Join us on Facebook dot com, slash Stuff you Should Know,
(49:31):
Send us an email to Stuff Podcast at how stuff
Works dot com, and join us our at home on
the web Stuff you Should Know dot com. Stuff you
Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For
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Chuck Bryant
Josh Clark
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