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August 22, 2020 39 min
Almost three percent of Americans suffer from a debilitating disorder that causes them to suffer intense fear seemingly without reason and science hasn’t yet figured out what causes it. Join Josh and Chuck in this classic episode as they get to the bottom of panic attacks. Learn more about your ad-choices at
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Episode Transcription

The text below is machine transcribed.

Hi everyone from October two, two thousand and fourteen my Saturday select pick for the week. It's how panic at taxs work.

This is very sad and serious stuff. Everybody Panic atects are terrifying. They are a real deal stuff. I've never had one.

I've had friends and family members that have had them and it's tough stuff. So if you suffer from them or have friends or family that do why, don't you give it a listen an maybe this will help out release, bring a better understanding about how panic attacks work.

Welcome to step. You should know a production of Bihart radios, how stuff works hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, there's Charles W UK Briann Jerry. So it stuff you should know Yep wides bread, Pan Yeah. Did you see that video no, which one thet was a dude? This is just like two days ago that went up on stage and attacked the pand. Oh No. I didn't see that yeah and they've got the whole thing and it was during one of the really repetitive Jony parts of a song, and I haven't seen an explanation, but there was, I went to the widespread panic facebook thing because it was a big threat about people talking about it and I just said Hero: Did you really Yeah Ha people gang by when me going hero?

That's Hla Dager troll.

I thought it was pretty funny.

He attacked the members of the band yeah like physically and I couldn't quite deteck the drummer and he was upset and wow. I don't know if that part of the song made him snap, but it was definitely one of those repetitive dat thank t haint over and over over yeah hois like stop, but he was at the show, so that'd be weird unless he went there to attack them, Yah thats, probably the bath salts.

Maybe so so we're not talking about that kind of panic, more of psychotic break, and this is not why it's spread at all is very individualized panic. It is, but it turns out.

People suffering from this is kind of widespread.

How about that?

So it fits a little bit sure.

Instead, we're talking about panic attacks and the combination of panic attacks or the culbination of panic, attects hiy can lead to something called panic, disorder, yeah and it is a sucky mental condition yeah that about two point: eight percent of Americans, which is a pretty significant amount of people yeah, that's that's more than bypolar, which we've covered yeah, it's CIZAPHRENIA, yeap and OCD, which we well we've covered all three of those yeah.

So that's a pretty significant amount of people who suffer from panic disorder right, but that's different than just plan old panic. ATTECI. Even though to have panic disorder, you have to have panic attaxk. But if you have panic a text, you don't necessarily have panic disorder right exactly and I've had two experiences which I'll talk about at some point through the show not personally but emily had a panic attack once and friend in college had a panic attack, a roommate yeah and neither one of them have panic disorders. It was just an isolated incident yeah. So apparently, that's I don't know if Commons, the right word yeah, but people do have panic attacks and they, but that might be the only one they ever have for their entire lives. I hope so, which makes the whole thing kind of mysterious and we should say, like science does not know what exactly is going on here.

They have some theories yeah, but there's there's no, there's no way to predict what's happening, they don't even know if it's genetic or what environmental well, they finally isolated a gene last year.

I guess ic go and talk about that now. Okay, in December, two thousand and thirteen they isolated. The Gen - and you know, jeans - are always so boring with their names. Unless it's Symmons, that's right, the NKRT three they think may be responsible, because its presence appears to cause an over estimation of fear and danger and an overactivation of the hippacampus and a Migdela. So, basically, if you have this gene you're going to exaggerate your fear overall, okay, but H, it's not like they're saying they prove that's the cause right, but that is a good step, ind scientifically in the right direction. That's a huge step yeah because I mean that does sound very much like what a panic attack is. A panic attack is where you experience a very pronounced sense of fear and basically your fighterflight symptoms response and really from what I can understand your flight response yeah like you're, not in a position to fight or freeze, because you know now these days, it's fight, flight or freeze, Oh really, yeah.

I don't think any that yeah there's a third option now, yea drop and roll kind of yeah on't know way. Those aren't options. That's a sequence right.

This is these: Are Options Yeah when you're confronted with danger, Nick Toon or buddy the comedian dude? Have you seen? Is Honda Fit ads yeah?

Those are awesome yeah.

I was like that's Nick Thun and he's on like Miss America yeah. The first thing I always think about is good for you: cash, those checks, baby yeah. He has that funny bit on stop dropping roll and like they needed to continue that, like keep rolling he's like that's kind of key, don't stop dropping roll because you'll be consumed by fire. You need to keep rolling right until you get to a door yeah, it's very funny stuff.

So this is a little different fight flight or freeze yeah.

What's so, how does freeze factor end like you just freeze up and okay toast it's yeah, that least benoficial of all of the these adaptations to danger, but basically, when you're, when you confronted with danger, you can either fight fly or fhreese. That makes total sense. I don't know why foreeze was never in there to begin with yeah, because so many people freeze they decided on the last couple of years.

I think I'm a flyer or a freezer for sure it depends. I don't know: If do you think, there's a personality type?

Oh boy! I don't know you know, don't you think it's possibly like just what your body chemistry happens to be doing right then?

No, I think some people are more inclined to fight for sure. Okay. Well with panic attacks, you're flying yeah. That's your only that's your jm right there, yeah and you're experiencing it in the exact same way that somebody's coming to Mug you right or as pull the knife on you and you're running away or there's a lion chasing you except, and this is the key to panic attack.

There is no lion. There is no mugger yeah, there's no knife, there's no discernible reason for you to be experiencing the sudden onfset of crippling fear but you're experiencing it. Nonetheless, that's right! No, no tangible thing happening right in that moment right. So when you come out of it and these things, can they peek within about ten minutes, but these the symptoms can last for an hour or more when you come out of it. You're, like I don't ever want that to happen again, yeah the place that this just happened say the park, I'm never going back to, because now I associated with this, because what you're doing when you experience, fear you're learning to stay away from something yeah.

So whether you want to or not you've just been conditioned to fear the place that you just were sure, because you had o panic attack and then, lastly, you think possibly you're crazy, yeah or having a heart attack.

Yeah, that's and both both of the my wife and my friend both thought. They were having heart attacks, yeah, which is super scary and we'll get the difference later on. But I guess we should talk about just some of the initial symptoms of a panic attack. The old DSM diagnostic and statistical manual. ofmental disorders list looks like about ten symptoms, and if you have at least four of these, you may be having a panic attack which is heartbounding shaking dizziness sweating, choking feeling naugia shallow or short breath. Chaspane numness Ertingling chills and hot flashes feeling of unreality feeling like you're, going crazy or feeling like you're about to die yeah.

You got four of those you're having a panic attack. Yes, and if you have four panic attacks within four weeks, yeah or you have one panic attack and then fear having another panic attack for about a month or so yeah, then you can be diagnosed with whatt's called panic disorder. So if you listen to our fear, podcast, which was a really good one, it's kind of the same as a panic atteck we covered your.

Your autonomic nervous system is what maintains all the functions in your body. The involuntary functions in your body that is, and it's going to take signals from your central nervous system.

It's going to regulate your organs, thit's, why you don't have to tell your heart to beat or your kid needs to work yeah. It's all your pencrous do secrete stuff! That's right!

It's your autonomic nervous system and it has two parts: the sympathetic and parisympathetic and your pair sympathetic controls like I said your your heartbeat and stuff like that. You'R, the normal aspect.

Yeah, I just Lik Orhomi a stacis right yeah that balance that I all seek that we don't know we're seeking and then the sympathetic is, if you have that fight or flight, if you become excited in any way really that's when that's going to kick in yeah, it's like normal gear and then high year yeah. But it's not always fear. You know just any kind of excitement right. You could be super happy, it could be sexual arousal. That's all your sympathetic, nervous system right in those two components, make up the autonomic nervous system, which it kind of switches from one to the other, depending on your state of arousal. Right, that's right!

But when fear has aroused you, your sympathetic nervous system kicks into high gear and Adrenalin is released, which is a huge factoring, causing the symptoms of a panic attack like you start breathing very heavily and shallowly your pupils dilate you we always used to say if you're digesting food, you stop doing that. Oh yeah, that's right! Basically, all of your energy is transferred over to either fighting or flying and, in the case of a panic attack its transferred over to get you to be able to run away as fast as possible, yeah, which can be a little scary, but in a real fear situation. If you're in danger, your pairof sympathetic, Nervou systemis going to kick in and calm you down, but that is not what happens in the case of a panic attack which is really perplexing. So, let's Recaptis, a panic attack is when you experience this incredibly intense fear, so much so that you run away, but there's nothing there to be afraid of and then and then to make everything a million times worse.

Your pairof sympathetic, nervous system doesn't kick in and calm you down like it would under normal circumstances. So you get to experience this horrible thing even longer.

That's right!

All Right! So, like I said before breaking news from December last year, they think they've isolated a gen previous to that they've.

Some researches said it could be genetic because identical twins experience it more than fraternal twins, but it's always been sort of up in the air. Theve been contradictions as well RIGHTA genet basis. They think it's also possibly epogenetic or environmental. Like apparently, one study found that a lot of people who have panic disorder had some sort of traumatic incident happen in their childhood.

My friend from college did is that right, YEP, so they're thinking like possibly it had some sort of effect and set up like a time bomb for later on in life yeah the stord feelings that it maybe you've never dealt with about some traumatic event are going to they're going to rear their head at some point in your life in some way yeah or it just rearranged the the neural output in your brain, so that one day you're just set up when everything is just right. Yeah that chemistry is flooding your brain in a certain way and then Bam it comes out of nowhere. You have a panic attack yeah.

Another theory is that they think, if you have an over active fear system like Youv, basically H, ve been scared too much in life or you're, a scared person.

Then it's just going to make it a hair trigger for something to set it off right, which makes a lot of sense.

I think it could be a combo of a lot of things yeah as usual yeah.

I wonder Theug at what it will end up being Thau. If we'll find that there is one thing that that leads to this predictably, like I like ter things built up, but then there's the actual trigger right, yeah and that's another thing too ISO. They don't know what triggers these things. They do know that a panic attack being worried about having a panic attack yeah can actually trigger a panic attack ye a absolutely, I feel so bad for people panic disorder. This is like a terrible affliction yeah, because you do become very much afraid that you're going to have another panic attack yep, so that can set off a panic attach, but it also can set off a Co. Morbidity called a goriphobiature where you are afraid to leave your house yeah, but you're also afraid to be alone, and I read this this article that was from the e ht one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven and they were saying, like the the froinist, the freidist followers of Sigma froid yeah, we're saying oh well clearly, if you're in AGOROPHOBIC, you don't want to go outside because that's where sexual desire is yeah and you don't want to be alone, because you're worried that you will like abuse yourself right.

So agorophobia and everybody went boo, sit Doun, shut up Fridays yeah, and so nowadays they have realized that a Gorophobia is almost almost exclusively the result of panic disorder. Oh really yeah, and it's because you, you fear the place that you had a panic attack. So you don't want to go there again, yeah and then maybe it happened again at the grocery store. So you don't want to go there and it happene.

You don't want to be alone, but you don't want to be around stranger. So you cling to your family members, yeah and now all of a sudden you're not living your life anymore, yeah you're, developing phobias because of your panic attacks and your association with them like if you're on an elevator and you have a panic, attech you're not getting on an elevator again right, you've just developed a phobia for elevators and so all of a sudden you're not going to be working at a place where you might normally work, because you have to take the elevator to get there or o. You develop a love of stairs right, but then what? If you're you don't like canfind spaces at all, like a stairwell, yeah yeah, you ever been locked in the stairwell here at the building yeah I mean HEU just walk down, however many flights till you're at the lobby - yeah, Oh, you can get out down there. Yes, okay, yeah you're, not actually locked in. U Just have to walk all the way down.

To usually just call you and say: Let me is yeah.

Another theory is that when you're super, tired and overworkd was when a lot of times when these are set off, your brain is producing sodium lactate or Co. Two and when those levels increase your brain says you know what I think you're suffocating, and so I'm going to send a signal to get you a lot more oxygen, and I found this really sad case of this woman, a university student who died from an severe asthma attack like three days ago and she had had a history of asthma and then told the medics that she was going through like final exams and she'd, been having panic attacks in the weeks like proceding, so breathing is a huge part of panic attacks in as evidence by her. If you have asthma, it's can be deadly, which is super superscary and sad. It yeah then one other, I guess, there's a neurological basis. They believe for people who have panic attacks, people who suffer from panic disorder tend to have fewer Seratonan, receptors, yeah and apparently also Gaba, which helps us get to sleep. It's called a Gama, immuno butyric acid at's, Calledi, Gaba Yogaba.

Those two have some sort of role in panic disorder like you, don't have enough tar, tonent and your body's not producing enough Gaba. You may be prone to panic disorder.


You know there isn't like a specific type of person. That necessarily gets a panic attack. It can happen to anyone, but usually it happens if in you're in your tniesalthough they say, kids can get it as well. Have a panic attack or a disorder twice as many women have a panic disorder develop on his men, which is pretty interesting and, like you said just the fear like having had one before that, fer can lead to more. So it's very cyclical, yes, and you know that one paper from eighty seven - I can't tell if it was arguing in favor of panic, disorder being like an evolutionary adaptation yeah and like possibly beneficial or if they were saying, like some people, think this can you believe this, but they were one of the points that this guy made was well twice as many women have panic disorders as men right so clearly it's an evolutionary adaptation because women wouldn't have had to have gone as far away from camp while they were gathering food as an yeah sure men couldn't stand to have a panic attacker. They couldn't it wouldn't be an adaptation for men right, it would be for women, plus women can't run as fast when they have kids to carry so they need to be on alert a little more gotcha. It's just smelled like bunk yeah, one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven bunk Ayeah. That's that was a big ear for bunk yeah.

If you do have a panic disorder, you may have a hard time getting your family to understand it.

Sometimes they overreact and think it's like way more severe than it is sometimes they underreact and say you know it's all in your head right, like just calm down, but either way saying boy your nuts or you just need to relax. Neither one of those is going to help out you loved one chill out. There's no lion. Yeah one' help one thing: I've learned and arguments and fights with my wife is an em boiler. N. This early on is saying telling someone to relax, never causes someone to relax. No, it's like not the worst thing you can do if something's heated is to say just relax. It is true. That's just going to ramp it up yeah!

So that's my advice for couples out there, an any relationship. Really it's good advice, Chuck! Thank you.

There is a silver lining to all this.

In that panic disorder is actually highly treatable. I ' The treaments that they've come up with are pretty successful and we will talk about those treatments right after this all right, so you mentioned that they are treatable. They have found success rates through medication andtherapy, which seem to be about the same as far as how effective they are between sixty and ninety percent of the time. That's pretty good yeah, that's not bad at all.

So that's the good news. So there's three there's three typical methods of treatment, antidepressants, yeah, antianxiety pills, yeah and therapy yeah, and you might use them.

You know independent of what another in conjunction with one another. I also saw Beta blockers. Some people use Beta blockers to treat them but they're, not quite sure.

What's going on with that, I've used those before life performances. Those are the ones I read about that gave me one and I was like a useless worm yeah. It didn't affect me like that.

I was I just like totally lost my personality. I wasn't nervous, but I didn't do anything well. I've gotten used to the lie performing now, so I don't need him anymore, but I got that tip from apparently a bunch of musicians like in symphonies and stuff use. Hem was like well if a first chair violinist, if it's good for them ton, give me some Bata buckards yeah, but it worked for me but, like I said, I'm over all that I enjoyed being on stage now so with ssrris yeah, which is what you moved Don to from Beta blockers right.

No, I'm not on it.

So with ssris, those are selective, Seratonand reuptake inhibitors and they do exactly what they sound like.

You've got a bunch of Saratonein yerscepters in your brain.

If you have panic disorder, you may have fewer Sara Tonan receptors in your brain. Yeah Sar Tona is a narrow transmitter that helps basically stabilize your mood by either causing a neuron to fire or inhibiting a neurondo fire in this really beautiful perfectly balanced chemical reaction right yeah.

So if you have fewer of these receptors, the normal you're going to be comparatively out of balanced with an ssri and Ani depressent does.

Is it allows the Seratonan to kind of stay in your snaps is a little longer than is normal so that you are releasing a little more Sir Tonin than you would under normal circumstances, and it's proven pretty effective for for panic disorder. Yeah I mean they work wonders for a lot of people for a lot of reasons, but not everyone, and they can cause a lot of negative side effects.

So obviously you know work with your doctor on a program and it takes them a little while, like two to four weeks to begin working right for a panic attack and anti anxiety, drug like zanx might be a little more effective because that is immediately hit t you. It is a tranquilliser Benzo di as Apin right yeah and it's you know, Zannex is going to help chill you out immediately, but you can get hooked on those things: Pretty Quick, yeah and they're dangerous to quit. Cold Turkey and Yeait's not the best thing to go to Zanx a lot.

Well Yeah.

They say that you should.

Basically, if you, if you undertake an ssri regimen, you can conceivably stay on it. For years yeah, if you undertake anti anxiety, your Benzo diasapine regimen, like it shouldn't last for more than a couple weeks or month, yeah from what I understand yeah because of the dependency and again you want to like really do all of this with like qualified competent doctor's assistance, sure not a doctor's assistant doctors assistant. It depends if it's a qualified, competent doctor's assistant who can write prescriptions, O Yeah Trust, Go Ford, that's true, and then there's therapy. Of course, the old CBT cognitive behavioral therapy, which we've talked about a bunch, but that is they're goingno sort of the processis, is going to play out like this they're going to teach you about your panic disorder right, which is a big step. If you understand something you can overcome it more easily, I think they're going to monitor you and you're going to self, monitor and record your symptoms and when they happen and why they happen. What the circumstance was breathing like we mentione is a huge part of it anything from meditation to just regular breathing exercises which will give you some tips on that in a minute, too, yeah are going to help you out and then the old exposure to situations. Then this is once you've rethought like your. What your approach is going to be like here's, your new outlook and now here's a situation that might give you a panic etack. How do you feel yeah or like if you had a panic attack in an elevator like hey, may tell you to imagine you're in an elevator.

Your therapy might progress until you're, actually in an elevator and your chilling out, and the hope is that if you can undergo exposure therapy to that degree, it will get you over your panic, attects in general.

Another aspect of IT Chuck is rethinking yeah, and that is basically accepting the fact that you have panic attacks.

Apparently, if you can say I'm having a panic attack or I have panic attext and you acknowledge it to yourself into other people yeah, it immediately turns down the volume on the whole thing yeah. I noticed some similarities in someone guiding th someone through an LSD trip and getting someone through a panic attack. Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of it is like understanding like I am having an acid trip.

I am not having a good time, it's the same thing as I'm having a panic attack, and this is no good right, and if I understand that, then I can come down more easily yeah keeping it in just lead you to freak out more exactly so. That's CBT cognitie behavioral therapy and, if you, if you undergo therapy and you're still suffering from panic, attacks the apparently being discouraged as a real problem with people with panic disorder yeah, because you can still suffer them even if you're doing everything right and so a lot of people have learned to cope and there's some pretty common coping techniques for panic disorder and, like you said, the heart of the whole thing is breathing like when you suffer a panic atteck, you start breathing shallowly and quickly and you can hyperventilate what you want to do is breathe from your diaphram and that you can actually practice this in the times when you're not having a panic attack yeah if you're a singer, you know how to breathe with your Diafram, but if you're, not what you can do is lie down on your back.

Put some pillows Ond your head and knees and put a hand on your stomach in a hand on your chest and then practice breathing and making your hand on your stomach, move without the hand on your chest, moving right and then tap the hand on your stomach. Well, you make a circle with the hand on your chest when you're really advanced wow, it's pretty impressive and then another thing you can do is just literally like put a weight on your stomach and Mak sure you heavy no, like a book sure yeah, I a Nice Atlas, something that you can see going up and down when you're breathing with your diafhram. That's right and you want to just kind of breathe in the good exhale the bad yeah like I'm having a panic atteck. This will pass yeah. Now this will subside.

This is a temporary feeling at you should be saying to yourself and if you're a person who's like outin public - and you see somebody having a panic attack, you basically want to do the same thing that they're trying to do for themselves. You want to remain calm. You want to tell them that it's going to be over with pretty soon that everything's okay, they have nothing to fear yeah. You don't want to tell him to chill out, though no guiding someone through relaxation is different than saying chilled out by the way right very different.

They do recommend that you, if you have a problem with with attacks in general or if you have a disorder, you should exercise a lot.

You should practice, they don't call it meditation, but that's really what it is is deep, breathing and relaxation. It's called mindfulness these days. Isn't it I don't know, I think, that's what they call it, because meditation turns people off Right, guess, interesting, cut cut out the caffeine and sugar and nicotine. That's a big one. Yeah, that's not going to help you at all doing all those things, and you know if this stuff is stuff. That's building up inside of you, which it often is, learn how to express yourself a little more and and talk about your issues.

I know that in both of my cases, my buddy and college, it was during Finals Week and I had gone to bed and my roommate and another dude h d were out in the living room. Staying up and one of them came and woke me up and he's like dude he's, Havin heat attack he's having a heart attack and I didn't know anything about panic attect. So we took him the hospital, of course, and that's all it was. It was a panic attack he calme down.

I think I think they might have given them something there medi some sort of medication to cal them down. Probably BENZODIASA PN yeah, probably like a good shot in the arm of that stuff, and he was like. Oh I'm, fine right with Emily's case. She had been under a lot of stress and was in driving back from Akron Ohio to Atlanta.

I think she went to get.

I think she would to get some furniture or something so she was in a truck like a moving truck. Oh yeah, that's a stressful event had been drinking caffeine like crazy, like she does and basically started to have trouble breathing on the highway, going like eighdy down the highway and had to pull over called me, and you know I calmed her down. I was like all right now: Let's get back on the road, see how you do. She got back on the highway and immediately freaked out again and I pluwed to Cincinnati and went Tou h a hotel and drove her home nice yeah.

I mean there was really no choice at that point. Yeah.

You know when it's your wife, you plus it was a good opportunity to get on the white horse. You know and ride in and save the day.

Oh that wil be worse, think everyone loves those opportunities. You know yeah for sure, and it's and I've always also wanted to run to the airport say like give me a one way: Ticket Thi somewhere.

That's one of my way! Yeah! I have time for your body scan pretty much. That's how happened so she checked herself into a hotel and I went there and had some Nice Cincinnati, Skylan, Chile and then the next morning we hit the road nice yeah. It was good Ithini a she hasn't had one. Since then thank good. Despite, like you know S, she has a lot of anxiety just as a human yeah, but no panic, attax yeah.

So I definitely have seen the things I saw in this article in both of them whether it was during finals, like the things going on in her life at the time were super stressful.

I think the trigger was she doesn't like see great at night or in the rain when she's driving - and I think all these things compounded and just played out to where she felt like she was having a heart attack, Gosh and so did my friend.

But I guess we should mention that there are some taltal signs of a heart attack: Yeah, that's a big big one yeah that you can recognize the difference because you don't want to actually be having a heart attack, know and be like is just a Pani. Atachjust breathe right, just breathe, while you're dying all right here ar few tips from the American Hart Association Pressure in the center of your chest.

THA PERSIST LONGER THAN A couple of minutes or goes away. Then returns shortness of breath, pain in the arm or upper body.

You might feel nausious or faint and of course, if you're ever in doubt call nine hundred n one because, like you said, Youdon't want to be having a heart attack thinking, it's will subside. No, there will be aga on your face.

Well, to say the least. Exactly if you want to know more about panic, attacks and panic disorder type either. One of those sets of words into the search part Howse, stuff works and it'll bring up this article and since I said that it's time for listener, mait call this basement fear.

He guys a know most listeners now your podcasts great for learning, an entertainment. But I found another purpose, distraction from stress and duce irrational fears.

thit sounds familiar. We were just talkig about this kind of thing. Oh yeah, and I didn't even realize it when I picke this out how about that O serendipity.

I grew up in a house with a creepy gross spacement, where we did laundry and it never bothered me my fiance James and I recently moved into a house with a noncreepy and nongross basement, but I think the stress of planning a wedding is getting to me because when I need to go down into the basement to do laundry and nearly have a panic attack, imagining a person lurking in the basement, I've started playing an episode of stuff. You should know on my iphone and carrying it in my pocket when I need to go down to the basement, stay back spirit yeah exactly so. We literally accompany her into the basement, which I think is hysterical yeah.

I am busy enough enjoying your humor and information that I don't get US overwhelmed by this irrational fear think it may even be waning now.

So I continue to make myself go down into the basement and see that my fear is not really based in any reality at all.

THAT'S CBT! That's exposure therapy yeah boom nice.

Also, before this weird basement fer popped up. I long called you guys my cleaning crew, because I listened to episodes while doing my chores and that is from Kelsey and Kansas City - Kansas, not Kansas, city, Missouri, Missouri and Kelsey. Good luck with that, and just don't look behind that door thatas over near the washing machine.

It's very helpful.

Just kidding Kelsey, there's nothing down there and just take us with you wel. We will protect you yeah, because spirits don't like us, no, the podcast is coming from inside the house.

If you want to get in touch with chuck or me, you can tweet to us at Sysk podcast. You can join us on facebookcom stuff. You should now you can send us an email to stuff podcast at house teforkscom and, as always, join an set our home on the web stuff. You should knowcom Stuff You Should Know, is production of ihart radios, housestuff works for Ol podcasts for my heart, radio, EIS, it the IHAT radio, a AP, he podcast, an whereever, you listen to your favorite, shows

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