December 17, 2025 • 29 mins
Is nuclear fusion the clean energy we need? Oz speaks with Commonwealth Fusion Systems' scientist and engineer Alex Creely and fashion designer Gabriela Hearst about why the public should get excited about nuclear fusion. Together, they discuss what it will take to commercialize fusion, how Gabriela’s 2022 fashion show changed the public conversation, and whether we’ll have nuclear fusion by 2030.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to text stuff. This is the story. I'm as
Voloscian here with Cara Price. Hi AHAs Hi Cara. So
this week I wanted to ask a simple but very
big question, which is can nuclear fusion save the world,
and if so, on what timeline?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Is?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
It ridiculous for me to ask what nuclear fusion is.
I genuinely don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Not at all actually, And it's a little confusing because
we hear so much about nuclear all the time at
the moment, especially with the new demands for energy from
the AI industry. But people are normally talking about nuclear
fission rather than nuclear fusion. But I'm going to let
Alex Creeley explain this, who works at a company called
Commonwealth Fusion Systems.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
So, fusion is the process of powers of stars. You
take small atoms like hydrogen, you can bind them together.
You make bigger atoms like helium, and that releases like
a whole bunch of energy. So it's a bunch of
potential advantages. It's clean, it's firm, so it turns on
when you want it, not when you don't. And hopefully
if we can make it work in a power plant
on Earth, it'll change the way the world makes electricity.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
So, as you were saying, like, this is obviously a
concept that is different than nuclear fission, but I still
can't understand the difference between nuclear fusion and nuclear fission.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Well, well, let's toss back to Alex for that.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Fission and fusion are like exact opposite processes. You take
big atoms like uranium, you split it apart from smaller atoms.
So fusion's combining fission splitting apart. Oh, that actually makes sense.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
It's actually deceptively simple. You know. Fission, as I mentioned,
is the process by which today is nuclear power plants
are powered, and it's a process that we've mastered, essentially
splitting the atom. Nuclear fusion, on the other hand, works
in the lab, but it hasn't yet been commercialized.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
So there are people though that think that nuclear fusion
can save the world, even though we haven't perfected this
process yet.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, there've actually been several big breakthroughs in the last
few years and a glut of funding. I think I
read that twelve nuclear fusion startups have raised more than
one hundred million dollars each in the last few years.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Thank god.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
My other guest today came to this space early before
it was as hot as it is today. Her name
is Gabriella Hurst. You probably know she is.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
I do.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
She's a very interesting fashion designer whose career I followed
for a while.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Actually, yes, so. She was the creative director of Chloe.
She now runs her own brand. She designed Jill Biden's
inauguration dress. She's one of the most celebrated fashion designers
in the world. And she made her mission to make
fashion production more sustainable, which is how she got intrigued,
believe it or not, by nuclear fusion.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I believe it's around eighty five percent of the world
is moved with fossil fuels, and I knew these idea
that we were going to consume less energy was just mistaken.
And I found this article in the Financial Times and
something inside me when like this is it like I
have found a holy grail of sorts.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Beginning of sentence, I found this article in the Financial
Times is something I do every other every other time.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Literally, that's literally how we function.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
So Gabriella became a global ambassador for nuclear fusion. She
linked up with Alex Creeley at Commonwealth Fusion Systems and
she used a runway show at Chloe back in twenty
twenty two with Gigi had died walking to bring the
world's attention to fusion.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
And I could probably argue that we wouldn't be talking
about nuclear fusion in this way had she not put
on this fashion show.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Well, she certainly brought the topic out of the academy
and into the kind of popular cultural conversation before anyone else.
I mean that said, of course, there's been investment interests
around this for a long time. Sam Altman became the
chairman of one of the nuclear fusion startups called Helian,
back in twenty fifteen. But I think bringing it into
the mainstream was something that Gabriella really can credit for,
(04:00):
and she and Alex together helped me really dive into
this question, which is can it save the world, and
if so, on what timeline? Alex, when will someone like
Abriella be able to use fusion to manufacture I just.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Want to say I'm the least of the problem. I
would say, like, how about.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
About how about Zara.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Or how about all the AI people want to thing?
Just know, I'm just like, I'm really not a problem.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
In the scale we want.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
We want to make enough fusion for everyone that's like
the goal and.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Went when what is the fundamental challenge of commercializing this
that the idea has been actively invested in since the
late fifties early sixties. We're seventy years in, but there's
a new for one of a better word energy, it
feels like around this.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
So the central challenge of fusion is to get your
fuel hot and to keep it hot without spending so
much energy keeping it hot that it's not worth it.
So to do fusion, your fuel needs to be like
one hundred million degrees one hundred million degrees, one hundred
million degrees. It's like it's a number that's so large
it's kind of meaningless.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
Because comparely to the times of the heat of the sun.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Yeah, it's it's hotter than the core of the sun,
hotter than the core of the sun.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, and you can create that heat here on Earth today.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Today, today we can. Yeah. So it sounded like science fiction,
but like we do it every day. But there's a
new energy in it now. So people are working for
this a long time. But the technology you need to
do that to get the fuel hot and keep it
hot is all different types of technology. It's like building
on the just general progress of human civilization over the
last seventy years. We now have new types of magnets,
new types of lasers, new materials, new computational ability to
(05:39):
optimize stuff, and all of that has kind of gotten
us to the point where we're ready to take what
was a science experiment which is really cool or really
hot maybe and turn that into a power plant. So
it's coming soon. There's a lot of companies working on it.
I think a lot of us are target targeting early
twenty thirties, so not too long from now.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Gabrielle, when you first got interested in this in twenty
twenty one, was that some kind of breakthrough that made
it more relevant or what was the was the moment then?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I think it was reading how much the private sector
had like Gearrope in recent years, because before it was
only publicly funded and it was a Cold War race,
and he had a momentum, right, and then it kind
of I think it was around the nineties where it
slowed down. Of it the momentum of the evolution of
fusion energy, and it was that understanding of the private
(06:27):
sector investing and that big players were getting involved and
the good the button, the ugly were getting involved, and
so I was like, Okay, there's something here, and I
did the research, meaning I used it as a research
for my collection, which you can imagine telling a French
(06:49):
Meissan studio saying well, this season, we're going to study
fusion and we're going to be set a few private
sector and a few public sector.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
And they weren't be like what is she on?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
And that we did and it was it was amazing
how the teams interpreted everything, Like we really did prints
of like isotopes and like you know the Runway show,
we use a master of lights that was all the circles.
Speaker 5 (07:15):
Of a tacomac.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
But it was really that spark of like, oh this
is getting caught not found intended.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And what is a token mac?
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yeah, so tokmac is like the type of fusion machine
that we build. There's like a whole zoo of types
of fusion machines. The donut and you make it out
of magnets. So I think the tokmak. The word is
a contraction of like toital magnetic chamber. Toidal is just
like the math word for donut shaped, So donut shape
magnetic chamber. And we're we're building like that type of fusion.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Machine and that will live inside the power plant exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Yep. That's the heart of the power plant. So we
use these magnets. We make a donut shaped star and
then the star makes the energy and then we extract
that and boil water and make steamage like.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
A steam engine, just that it's powered by instead of coal,
it's by fusion.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Yeah. Humanity has gotten very good at boiling water over
the last couple hundred years, and we still do that. Actually,
even for fusion, we just come up with very clever
ways to boil the water.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
This is about generating heat to boil water. That's what
it comes down to.
Speaker 5 (08:12):
Yes, yep, Yes, surprisingly a lot of thinking into that.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, you talked about this kind of moment where a
whole bunch of public investment that was kind of latent
exploded into privatization. That's something most people are very familiar
with when it comes to AI, the fundamental dapper research
that in the last few years has kind of exploded
into a very immediate consumer product. Space is another example, right,
(08:38):
SpaceX and Blue Origin others building on the kind of
NASA and Soviet rocket tree platform technology to privatize space.
But where does fusion sit within this kind of public
to private paradigm.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
It's a similar idea where there's like foundational research that's
happened all around the world since the fifties, and there's
just a lot of understanding of the science that we've
developed and a lot of like adjacent technolog that we've developed,
and it doesn't seem like it's going very fast until
like it hits a tipping point where a bunch of
commercial entities like investors and stuff come in and they
look at it and like this looks really close, Like
(09:12):
it doesn't look close, and all of a sudden it
kind of passes a tipping point where it looks like
we're going to invest in this, and like we think
this is a real short term thing that we can
commercialize and deploy all of the world. And what commercial
entities are good at is scaling, so like not just
build one, build like thousands, which is what you need
for power.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
But I also I would say that what is different
from is a very focus on much more grounded It's
not like a wild West goal rush like AI where
people are like in pre idea stage getting funded. It's
really grounded in deep science in the fact that we
are here because fusion exists. We are a product of fusion.
(09:51):
So it's really harnessing the energy. So there's a much
more holy aspect to it.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
But you use the phrase holy grail.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, but it's really even if you look at the
poetry of the line that he said, or it's just
so simple, but it's the truth. But fission you have
to break, and for fusion, you have to fuse, right,
And I think what we need is a lot of
fusion in this world instead of breaking apart. So I
think there's something that I find very spiritual in the
(10:21):
science of all of it that's really interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
I think it's one of the things we thought about too,
is like fusion powers the universe, Like the universe has
already chosen fusion as like the main way to make energy,
and so like it seems like a good choice that
human civilization should eventually get to that same choice.
Speaker 5 (10:37):
It's proven, Is it proven?
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Yes, it's a brun model.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
We like to talk about podcasts as the theater of
the mind. Garyell, what's it like as an outsider, like
talk about the process of translating this through fashion from
mass audience. I mean, you had obviously a huge platform.
I think you had Gigi had Deed walk in that show.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Alex, a lot of models in our Big Models, Alex Costanini.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
There's a yeah, what you're trying to achieve and did
you do it? Well?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
What I tried to achieve was I think information is
very siloed. So the science community, the fusion community all
know what's going on and the updates, and the fashion
community all know their own things, and it's all very
silo or information. And if I just get a few
more people to know about it, just did you need
that public support in a way? So I think I
(11:25):
got like at least ten more people to know about it.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
Maybe a few more solid And I think on our side,
it's like that is so important because like we're working
to get the technology to work, but that is not
sufficient to really achieve like the longer energy mission of fusion.
It's like you need a world who understands fusion and
is excited about it and like wants to bring it
all forward. Like you need politicians involved, you need like
(11:48):
heavy industry, you need like financing, you need public policy,
you need all of these pieces together, and like the
only way you educate that much larger group of people
is to have a much wider platform, and like all
the work the gabrielity is critical to that wider platform.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And it kind of paid off. I guess would you
feel the need to do that again or do you
think like mission accomplished.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
In terms of no, no, no, till fusion is in
the grid, the mission is not accomplished.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Until fusion is in the grid, the mission is unaccomplished.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
Yeah, I think we're clear now.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
I agree.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
We did get an article in Vanity Fair.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
So I think it's about telling these great news because
it's great news. There's like brilliant people like my friend
Alex doing this work in the world, and they could
have used that brilliance for something else and using it
to save our buds. And it's a very holistic approach.
Is like its whoever wins the race's good for.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
All of us.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
So I read it. I read a piece this morning
actually which said that around a dozen nuclear fusion startups
in the US have raised more than one hundred million
dollars in recent years. One of those, of course, is
Commonwealth Fusion Systems. Gabriella, you studied the whole ecosystem. I
think you met a lot of the companies, Why Commonwealth
and why Alex in terms of one of the companies
(13:01):
that you want to make a special effort to showcase they.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Are transparency their commitment to the timeline. And I don't
think we ever spoke about this meeting a lot of
the members. I never met somebody with a big ego.
I met very dedicated people that were extremely committed to
this vision and this passion and all rooted for like,
oh shit, we have a big problem. Our humanity is
(13:28):
facing a big problem, and we're going to commit our
life to this. And so it was really the people
that made me think common World fushould and they're really
going at it in the timeline.
Speaker 5 (13:42):
I think you guys are like what on timeline or not?
Something too not too oft.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
We're moving fast. We always want to be faster, but
we're moving fast.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I'm moving fast towards what are you doing? What does
it mean to be the director of the Tokomac operations?
Like just break it down for us in a very
simple way.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Sure, So I end up with two jobs right now.
We're a startup, so you know, with more jobs than
you like. One of my jobs is the director of
Tokmac Operations. So right now we're building a demonstration plant
just outside of Boston. It's not yet a full power plant,
but it shows that all the stuff works, and so
I am managing the operations team for that, like, once
we finished building it, how do you turn it on?
(14:19):
Like which buttons do you push? And like hopefully don't
break it. And actually the process of transitioning that job
to some other people because we've like kind of trained
up a great team. So I'm transitioning now to be
the chief engineer for ARC Design. And so ARC is
our power plant that'll be in Virginia. We're starting the
design process for that and so today most of my
time is focused on the power plant design.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
So basically, this is what's so brilliant about them is
that they're doing both the demo and the commercial at
the same time.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
It's not like a linear thing.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
It's like, oh, well, first we are going to do
the demo and then we're going to do the commercial
plan we don't have that time, so they're doing both.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Yeah, and it's like the first one is sparked the
one we're building now. It like proves out all the technology.
It like proves out that we as an organization can
figure out how to build stuff, and then we take
all of that experience, all that learning, and we bring
it to the real commercial power plant which sits on
the grid makes electricity. You know, it looks like a
coal power plant, but without the coal part.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Off the break Why wind and solar energy aren't enough
and how AI demand plays into everything, Stay with us.
(15:38):
Samultman is involved with one of the nuclear fusion companies
called is it Helion or Helios Helion, Heleon, and they've
promised commercial deployment and to provide power to Microsoft by
twenty twenty eight. Yeah, is that credible? And what's your timeline?
Speaker 5 (15:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (15:52):
So our timeline is the early twenty thirties, and I
think we try to avoid very specific numbers until we're
fairly confident we can actually deliver on those. So early
twenty thirties. Our first plant will be in Virginia, and
we've actually also signed they're called a power purchase agreement.
Basically someone signed up to buy your electricity. We've signed
one with Google and one with any which is an
Italian energy company. They'll both buy electricity from the same
(16:14):
plant in Virginia. There's other companies working on this helion
as one of them. I think different companies have slightly
different philosophies of like how ambitious to be with their timelines.
We think our timelines are like very ambitious, but also realistic.
I think maybe there's some skepticism as to how realistic
other people's timelines are. But at some level it's good
to be ambitious, like going fast is good, as Gaby
(16:36):
said earlier, like anyone gets fusion working, that's good for
the world, Like that's good for humanity. And so we're
rooting for these other companies. It's a friendly rivalry. We
are working toward our timelines. We think our times are realistic,
and other people they have their own technology, they have
their own timelines that they're working toward.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
So I mean, you very clearly articulated the mission, which
is getting energy onto the grid. That's the clearest articulation
of the mission that I've I've heard talk about what
does it mean to get the energy onto the grid?
And why is that the mission?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Because we are in this path and it really is
about the burning of fossil fuels. We can go on
and on about the many things, but it's the burning
of fossil fuels, which if you look at it in abstraction,
is a really bad idea, right, but it produces energy.
It's like we're taking dead fossils, taking it out of
(17:23):
the earth, burning it, shooting it to the atmosphere. It's
just like the process is so polluting, it's like burning death.
Like I don't want to be too dramatic, but literally,
And so it is the burning of fossil fuels that
has to stop. And it's not raining in the Amazons.
I don't want to ruin your day, but it's not
(17:44):
raining in the Amazons. It's like we are in a
really pivotal point where all the dreams that we had
to control the temperature that's done. That doesn't mean we're
still not going to need fusion. So as soon as
we can get the burning of fossil fuels with whatever
technology that has the scale, because we know that wind
and solar don't have the scale to take this, and.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
They also harder to integrate onto the grid because their fluctuations.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
Right yeah, and wind and solar are great, they're great,
we should do more of it, but they have their challenges.
And it's like, especially in areas that they have fluctuations
that aren't well suited, Like places are cloudy all the time,
probably you shouldn't install a bunch of solar. And then
especially in like big population centers, so like we're in
New York City, it's really hard to power all of
New York City with wind and solar. You just need
so much land and then all the transmission of getting
(18:32):
the electricity from wherever you made it to where you
need it. That big cities are much better suited to
like a box that makes electricity, yeah, rather than like
like collecting it out of the environment. That's where fusion
strong point is is like it is big population centers,
it is areas that are really energy intensive, and then
it helps smooth out all the challenges of wind and
solar that are on and off and on and off.
(18:54):
You can do energy storage, but that adds up pretty
quickly as well as being challenging, especially when you if
you're so much wind but then it's not windy for
a week. You know, a lot of energy storage, but
fusion allows you to like smooth all that out with stuff.
We call it firm, but it's like on when you
need it, off when you don't energy.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
What needs to happen between now and the twenty thirties
for you to achieve your mission.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
Yeah, it's a great question. A lot of things, and
I'll start with like, we have to finish developing the technology.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
You can create the heat, but what can you not do?
Speaker 4 (19:22):
Yeah, so we can create the heat, but right now
it takes more energy to do the fusion process. Then
you get out of the future process. So it's like
a really cool science experiment. You can make fusion happen,
but it's not a power plant, and so there's a
lot of technologies that goes into getting that final step
and then efficiently getting the heat out and using it
for something. There's a lot of scientists and engineers all
(19:43):
around the world working on this. People really care about this,
like people have dedicated their careers to making this happen.
In addition to that, we need a supply chain. So
like building one power plant awesome, really cool, great for
a step, Like we need a lot of these. It's
like to really make an impact on the grid, To
really make an impact on carbon emissions, you need thousands
of power plants. So we need to develop global supply
(20:05):
chains who can make all the stuff that you put
into a power plant. We need the right policy. So
having governments around the world combination of encourage people to
do fusion but also regulate it in an appropriate framework.
We want to do this very safely, but we want
to do it appropriately, So we want to regulate things
appropriately for the actual risks of them. And so getting
(20:25):
the right regulatory and framework around the world and getting
awareness in so like one of the big philosophies that
CFS has had is like, we only want to go
into communities that want us there, So we don't want
to like bust down the door and be like we're
building a power plan here, like too bad for you.
And so having people who are aware of fusion, who
are interested in fusion, who are excited about fusion really
helps us go build power plants because then people are
(20:46):
like no, no, no, please come here, like we want
this new power plan here. So you need all these
pieces to come together to build power plants.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
The Ft said, in seven decades of experiments, no group
has developed a machine that can produce more energy than
the power hungry devices consume. You believe that's about to change.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
It has changed. So twenty twenty two, a lab in
California that Lawrence Livermore National Lab produced more energy out
than in. That's the first time ever in human history
that's happened. And it was after the Financial Times article,
so it's yeah, an update and.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
After my show.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
So I looked like I was like some oracle and
like it's like three months later.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, it was like and then it was more onto
like and people started texting me, oh my god, this
fusion thing, and I'm like timing, and so.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
We hope to be the second place to do that.
So this lab in California has done it. We hope
to be the second place to do that. And then
the next step is go from make more energy out
to make enough more energy out that you can make
a power plant.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
And Gabrielle, what's changed since you did the show?
Speaker 5 (21:43):
This is a big change.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I do think that there is much more awareness that
breakthrough got a lot of media attention. When I started,
the AI boom wasn't happening, Like AI was talked about
the fear of AI, but it wasn't like a booming.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
So I think it is definitely something that is really
thought through.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeahs as the need and as you said, the very
good definition of power hungry devices.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
It's true.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
One of the reasons, I mean, we were going to
build a power plant regardless of AI. One of the
reasons we're building it specifically in Virginia is because of
data centers. The Virginia area has so many data centers
they really, really, really need more electricity. And so they
were again very excited. Both the individual community was excited
because it was a fusion plant, but like the state
of Virginia and like the power producers there were very
(22:31):
excited that fusion was coming because they need electricity.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
I mean, also just how the culture has changed, right
Like if you look at twenty twelve period with AI,
there was like Jeffrey Hinton, who just won the Nobel Prize.
He and his lab couldn't get access to the supercomputers
at the leading universities, so they bought in video chips,
figured out how to basically engineer them to be AI chips,
(22:53):
and this amazing boom was born. What's changed in terms
of the culture, in terms of the perception of the
industry since you've been working in it at Eggs and
what still needs to change.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
I've been in fusion now for ten years. It's a
little bit longer. I started started undergrad doing some internships,
and I think at the time it was still viewed
as an academic pursuit. It was a scientific interest. I
got into fusion for the Climate Mission, for the Energy
Mission of like we need energy, and we want clean energy,
we want for an energy but broadly it was still
in the academic realm. And over those ten years people
(23:27):
have realized that like, no, no, this is coming soon
right on this precipice. It's like fusion, Like it feels
impossible until all of a sudden it feels inevitable. I
mean like powered flights the same way. Like a week
before the Wright brothers through their airplane, there was like
this whole article about how flight's impossible and like we
should stop this folly of that, you know, to waste
the time. That's really changed. I think that a lot
of the attitude around the world has changed, like yeah,
(23:49):
this is you know, some crazy scientists.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Like whatever I was confronted constantly is like from really
smart people that I respect, like this is not gonna
even happen. I remember when we did the panel in Cops. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
And what was the name of the former Dee arnimonies yes, yes,
he was a non believer and he turned his believer.
(24:11):
So there's there's a lot of believers now. Also, we
haven't really talked that it doesn't use uranium.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
We're getting close, and I think the world recognizes that,
and I think which is great also because because of
the awareness, we get help and support from a much
wider range of people than we would have ten years ago.
So suppliers we go, we need to order this weird
part and like ten years ago and be like yeah, yeah,
get in line, like you know, maybe someday they're like, oh,
this is for fusion, great, like front of the line,
like we'll make this thing for you.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
So it's mostly exciting.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Yeah, it's all. It's all sorts of stuff ranging from
like big things of small things that are moving this
faster carbrio.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
You mentioned uranium. Why and what are the misconceptions that
you're battling.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
No, it's not the misconception. It's just that we know
that uranium can be weaponized and fision, yeah for fiicient,
not for fusion, and fusion doesn't use uranium, and this
idea of energy that is not weaponized it's very appealing.
Just to be clear, I have nothing against about nuclear fission,
Like I'm like make nuclear great again. It's as I
(25:12):
get the end of the day, we want to replace
fossil fuels. That's that is and it's going to take
a whole landscape of energy, right, fusion, wind, solar, geo thermal,
now the technology to get geo thermal. It's like advancing
as well from areas that usually wouldn't have geo thermal.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
Yeah, you can think of it like like there's a
portfolio of ergy, just like the same way you like
a financial portfolio. It's like portfolio of energy solutions that
each are good in certain areas but maybe more challenging
other areas.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
And if this works, would it not become one hundred
percent No?
Speaker 4 (25:44):
No, Like fusion is great, it has a bunch.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Of country like mine doesn't need fusion. Uruay is completely hydro,
does not need fusion. All the energy that was producing
my country is clean because we didn't have oil and
to import oil is very very expensive. So for US,
oil wasn't the easy option. But how do you power
this country? Oh, we have a lot of rivers, so
you'reways one of the cleanest countries in the world.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Self promoting my country or like Iceland has geo thermal. Yeah,
they don't need they don't need a bunch of fusion.
But like large population centers or it's like very remote
areas like there's like very few people when in solar
are so much better, Like you don't need a giant
power plant. Yeah, but for cities, especially for countries that
are very oil intensive or very natural gas intensive or
coal like that's for fusion.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Big magnufacturing, big magnufacturing data center.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
It's part of a portfolio. It's not like fusion is
not the solution everything. It's part of a portfolio.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Can you clear fusion save the planet? How? On on
what timeline?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
The answer is yes, Yes, definitely is going to be
one of the leading energies. And for those that want
to leave the planet, they think they have to go
to Mars, they even need fusion for their rockets. So
without fusion they cannot even leave. So fusion is gonna
happen one way. For those that are really ambitioning to
be out of I mean I like it here, they
(27:01):
are going to need chuation for their rockets.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
So one way or an now or chuation has to happen.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Yeah, I mean I think the having fusion in the
world just makes a lot of things better. It reduces
all of our emissions. You can also think of it
as like energy is no longer a thing that you
have to dig out of the ground. That like some
countries have it in the ground, some countries don't. People
fight wars over that. Yeah, Like fusion means energy is
a manufactured product. You don't have to fight wars over
energy Anymoreah, there's emissions things that about fusion that would
(27:28):
be great. There's like geopolitical things about fusion that would
be great, and like on what timeline like soon, Like
I think the more help we can get, like the
more people around the world that know about fusion, that
are excited, that can take their talents from wherever they
come from and like apply it to fusion, like, the
faster it's.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Going to be.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I definitely feel much better informed after this than I
did before. And thank you for laying out something which
feels complicated and scary in a way which was easy
to consume and understand.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
Thank you for having us, Thank you for having us.
(28:14):
That's it for this week for tech stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
I'm Kara Price and I'm os Voloshin this episode, was
produced by Eliza Dennis, Tyler Hill and Melissa Slaughter. It
was executive produced by me Karra Price, Julian Nutter, and
Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvel for iHeart Podcast.
Kyle Murdoch mixed this episode and you also rode theme song.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Join us on Friday for the Week in Tech, where
we'll run through the headlines you need to follow.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
And please do rate and review the show wherever you listen,
and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at
gmail dot com with all of your thoughts and feedback.
We love hearing from you.
Welcome to text stuff. This is the story. I'm as
Voloscian here with Cara Price. Hi AHAs Hi Cara. So
this week I wanted to ask a simple but very
big question, which is can nuclear fusion save the world,
and if so, on what timeline?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Is?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
It ridiculous for me to ask what nuclear fusion is.
I genuinely don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Not at all actually, And it's a little confusing because
we hear so much about nuclear all the time at
the moment, especially with the new demands for energy from
the AI industry. But people are normally talking about nuclear
fission rather than nuclear fusion. But I'm going to let
Alex Creeley explain this, who works at a company called
Commonwealth Fusion Systems.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
So, fusion is the process of powers of stars. You
take small atoms like hydrogen, you can bind them together.
You make bigger atoms like helium, and that releases like
a whole bunch of energy. So it's a bunch of
potential advantages. It's clean, it's firm, so it turns on
when you want it, not when you don't. And hopefully
if we can make it work in a power plant
on Earth, it'll change the way the world makes electricity.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
So, as you were saying, like, this is obviously a
concept that is different than nuclear fission, but I still
can't understand the difference between nuclear fusion and nuclear fission.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Well, well, let's toss back to Alex for that.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Fission and fusion are like exact opposite processes. You take
big atoms like uranium, you split it apart from smaller atoms.
So fusion's combining fission splitting apart. Oh, that actually makes sense.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
It's actually deceptively simple. You know. Fission, as I mentioned,
is the process by which today is nuclear power plants
are powered, and it's a process that we've mastered, essentially
splitting the atom. Nuclear fusion, on the other hand, works
in the lab, but it hasn't yet been commercialized.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
So there are people though that think that nuclear fusion
can save the world, even though we haven't perfected this
process yet.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, there've actually been several big breakthroughs in the last
few years and a glut of funding. I think I
read that twelve nuclear fusion startups have raised more than
one hundred million dollars each in the last few years.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Thank god.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
My other guest today came to this space early before
it was as hot as it is today. Her name
is Gabriella Hurst. You probably know she is.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
I do.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
She's a very interesting fashion designer whose career I followed
for a while.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Actually, yes, so. She was the creative director of Chloe.
She now runs her own brand. She designed Jill Biden's
inauguration dress. She's one of the most celebrated fashion designers
in the world. And she made her mission to make
fashion production more sustainable, which is how she got intrigued,
believe it or not, by nuclear fusion.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I believe it's around eighty five percent of the world
is moved with fossil fuels, and I knew these idea
that we were going to consume less energy was just mistaken.
And I found this article in the Financial Times and
something inside me when like this is it like I
have found a holy grail of sorts.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Beginning of sentence, I found this article in the Financial
Times is something I do every other every other time.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Literally, that's literally how we function.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
So Gabriella became a global ambassador for nuclear fusion. She
linked up with Alex Creeley at Commonwealth Fusion Systems and
she used a runway show at Chloe back in twenty
twenty two with Gigi had died walking to bring the
world's attention to fusion.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
And I could probably argue that we wouldn't be talking
about nuclear fusion in this way had she not put
on this fashion show.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Well, she certainly brought the topic out of the academy
and into the kind of popular cultural conversation before anyone else.
I mean that said, of course, there's been investment interests
around this for a long time. Sam Altman became the
chairman of one of the nuclear fusion startups called Helian,
back in twenty fifteen. But I think bringing it into
the mainstream was something that Gabriella really can credit for,
(04:00):
and she and Alex together helped me really dive into
this question, which is can it save the world, and
if so, on what timeline? Alex, when will someone like
Abriella be able to use fusion to manufacture I just.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Want to say I'm the least of the problem. I
would say, like, how about.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
About how about Zara.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Or how about all the AI people want to thing?
Just know, I'm just like, I'm really not a problem.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
In the scale we want.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
We want to make enough fusion for everyone that's like
the goal and.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Went when what is the fundamental challenge of commercializing this
that the idea has been actively invested in since the
late fifties early sixties. We're seventy years in, but there's
a new for one of a better word energy, it
feels like around this.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
So the central challenge of fusion is to get your
fuel hot and to keep it hot without spending so
much energy keeping it hot that it's not worth it.
So to do fusion, your fuel needs to be like
one hundred million degrees one hundred million degrees, one hundred
million degrees. It's like it's a number that's so large
it's kind of meaningless.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
Because comparely to the times of the heat of the sun.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Yeah, it's it's hotter than the core of the sun,
hotter than the core of the sun.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, and you can create that heat here on Earth today.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Today, today we can. Yeah. So it sounded like science fiction,
but like we do it every day. But there's a
new energy in it now. So people are working for
this a long time. But the technology you need to
do that to get the fuel hot and keep it
hot is all different types of technology. It's like building
on the just general progress of human civilization over the
last seventy years. We now have new types of magnets,
new types of lasers, new materials, new computational ability to
(05:39):
optimize stuff, and all of that has kind of gotten
us to the point where we're ready to take what
was a science experiment which is really cool or really
hot maybe and turn that into a power plant. So
it's coming soon. There's a lot of companies working on it.
I think a lot of us are target targeting early
twenty thirties, so not too long from now.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Gabrielle, when you first got interested in this in twenty
twenty one, was that some kind of breakthrough that made
it more relevant or what was the was the moment then?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I think it was reading how much the private sector
had like Gearrope in recent years, because before it was
only publicly funded and it was a Cold War race,
and he had a momentum, right, and then it kind
of I think it was around the nineties where it
slowed down. Of it the momentum of the evolution of
fusion energy, and it was that understanding of the private
(06:27):
sector investing and that big players were getting involved and
the good the button, the ugly were getting involved, and
so I was like, Okay, there's something here, and I
did the research, meaning I used it as a research
for my collection, which you can imagine telling a French
(06:49):
Meissan studio saying well, this season, we're going to study
fusion and we're going to be set a few private
sector and a few public sector.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
And they weren't be like what is she on?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
And that we did and it was it was amazing
how the teams interpreted everything, Like we really did prints
of like isotopes and like you know the Runway show,
we use a master of lights that was all the circles.
Speaker 5 (07:15):
Of a tacomac.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
But it was really that spark of like, oh this
is getting caught not found intended.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And what is a token mac?
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yeah, so tokmac is like the type of fusion machine
that we build. There's like a whole zoo of types
of fusion machines. The donut and you make it out
of magnets. So I think the tokmak. The word is
a contraction of like toital magnetic chamber. Toidal is just
like the math word for donut shaped, So donut shape
magnetic chamber. And we're we're building like that type of fusion.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Machine and that will live inside the power plant exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Yep. That's the heart of the power plant. So we
use these magnets. We make a donut shaped star and
then the star makes the energy and then we extract
that and boil water and make steamage like.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
A steam engine, just that it's powered by instead of coal,
it's by fusion.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Yeah. Humanity has gotten very good at boiling water over
the last couple hundred years, and we still do that. Actually,
even for fusion, we just come up with very clever
ways to boil the water.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
This is about generating heat to boil water. That's what
it comes down to.
Speaker 5 (08:12):
Yes, yep, Yes, surprisingly a lot of thinking into that.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, you talked about this kind of moment where a
whole bunch of public investment that was kind of latent
exploded into privatization. That's something most people are very familiar
with when it comes to AI, the fundamental dapper research
that in the last few years has kind of exploded
into a very immediate consumer product. Space is another example, right,
(08:38):
SpaceX and Blue Origin others building on the kind of
NASA and Soviet rocket tree platform technology to privatize space.
But where does fusion sit within this kind of public
to private paradigm.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
It's a similar idea where there's like foundational research that's
happened all around the world since the fifties, and there's
just a lot of understanding of the science that we've
developed and a lot of like adjacent technolog that we've developed,
and it doesn't seem like it's going very fast until
like it hits a tipping point where a bunch of
commercial entities like investors and stuff come in and they
look at it and like this looks really close, Like
(09:12):
it doesn't look close, and all of a sudden it
kind of passes a tipping point where it looks like
we're going to invest in this, and like we think
this is a real short term thing that we can
commercialize and deploy all of the world. And what commercial
entities are good at is scaling, so like not just
build one, build like thousands, which is what you need
for power.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
But I also I would say that what is different
from is a very focus on much more grounded It's
not like a wild West goal rush like AI where
people are like in pre idea stage getting funded. It's
really grounded in deep science in the fact that we
are here because fusion exists. We are a product of fusion.
(09:51):
So it's really harnessing the energy. So there's a much
more holy aspect to it.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
But you use the phrase holy grail.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, but it's really even if you look at the
poetry of the line that he said, or it's just
so simple, but it's the truth. But fission you have
to break, and for fusion, you have to fuse, right,
And I think what we need is a lot of
fusion in this world instead of breaking apart. So I
think there's something that I find very spiritual in the
(10:21):
science of all of it that's really interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
I think it's one of the things we thought about too,
is like fusion powers the universe, Like the universe has
already chosen fusion as like the main way to make energy,
and so like it seems like a good choice that
human civilization should eventually get to that same choice.
Speaker 5 (10:37):
It's proven, Is it proven?
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Yes, it's a brun model.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
We like to talk about podcasts as the theater of
the mind. Garyell, what's it like as an outsider, like
talk about the process of translating this through fashion from
mass audience. I mean, you had obviously a huge platform.
I think you had Gigi had Deed walk in that show.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Alex, a lot of models in our Big Models, Alex Costanini.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
There's a yeah, what you're trying to achieve and did
you do it? Well?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
What I tried to achieve was I think information is
very siloed. So the science community, the fusion community all
know what's going on and the updates, and the fashion
community all know their own things, and it's all very
silo or information. And if I just get a few
more people to know about it, just did you need
that public support in a way? So I think I
(11:25):
got like at least ten more people to know about it.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
Maybe a few more solid And I think on our side,
it's like that is so important because like we're working
to get the technology to work, but that is not
sufficient to really achieve like the longer energy mission of fusion.
It's like you need a world who understands fusion and
is excited about it and like wants to bring it
all forward. Like you need politicians involved, you need like
(11:48):
heavy industry, you need like financing, you need public policy,
you need all of these pieces together, and like the
only way you educate that much larger group of people
is to have a much wider platform, and like all
the work the gabrielity is critical to that wider platform.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And it kind of paid off. I guess would you
feel the need to do that again or do you
think like mission accomplished.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
In terms of no, no, no, till fusion is in
the grid, the mission is not accomplished.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Until fusion is in the grid, the mission is unaccomplished.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
Yeah, I think we're clear now.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
I agree.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
We did get an article in Vanity Fair.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
So I think it's about telling these great news because
it's great news. There's like brilliant people like my friend
Alex doing this work in the world, and they could
have used that brilliance for something else and using it
to save our buds. And it's a very holistic approach.
Is like its whoever wins the race's good for.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
All of us.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
So I read it. I read a piece this morning
actually which said that around a dozen nuclear fusion startups
in the US have raised more than one hundred million
dollars in recent years. One of those, of course, is
Commonwealth Fusion Systems. Gabriella, you studied the whole ecosystem. I
think you met a lot of the companies, Why Commonwealth
and why Alex in terms of one of the companies
(13:01):
that you want to make a special effort to showcase they.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Are transparency their commitment to the timeline. And I don't
think we ever spoke about this meeting a lot of
the members. I never met somebody with a big ego.
I met very dedicated people that were extremely committed to
this vision and this passion and all rooted for like,
oh shit, we have a big problem. Our humanity is
(13:28):
facing a big problem, and we're going to commit our
life to this. And so it was really the people
that made me think common World fushould and they're really
going at it in the timeline.
Speaker 5 (13:42):
I think you guys are like what on timeline or not?
Something too not too oft.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
We're moving fast. We always want to be faster, but
we're moving fast.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I'm moving fast towards what are you doing? What does
it mean to be the director of the Tokomac operations?
Like just break it down for us in a very
simple way.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Sure, So I end up with two jobs right now.
We're a startup, so you know, with more jobs than
you like. One of my jobs is the director of
Tokmac Operations. So right now we're building a demonstration plant
just outside of Boston. It's not yet a full power plant,
but it shows that all the stuff works, and so
I am managing the operations team for that, like, once
we finished building it, how do you turn it on?
(14:19):
Like which buttons do you push? And like hopefully don't
break it. And actually the process of transitioning that job
to some other people because we've like kind of trained
up a great team. So I'm transitioning now to be
the chief engineer for ARC Design. And so ARC is
our power plant that'll be in Virginia. We're starting the
design process for that and so today most of my
time is focused on the power plant design.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
So basically, this is what's so brilliant about them is
that they're doing both the demo and the commercial at
the same time.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
It's not like a linear thing.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
It's like, oh, well, first we are going to do
the demo and then we're going to do the commercial
plan we don't have that time, so they're doing both.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Yeah, and it's like the first one is sparked the
one we're building now. It like proves out all the technology.
It like proves out that we as an organization can
figure out how to build stuff, and then we take
all of that experience, all that learning, and we bring
it to the real commercial power plant which sits on
the grid makes electricity. You know, it looks like a
coal power plant, but without the coal part.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Off the break Why wind and solar energy aren't enough
and how AI demand plays into everything, Stay with us.
(15:38):
Samultman is involved with one of the nuclear fusion companies
called is it Helion or Helios Helion, Heleon, and they've
promised commercial deployment and to provide power to Microsoft by
twenty twenty eight. Yeah, is that credible? And what's your timeline?
Speaker 5 (15:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (15:52):
So our timeline is the early twenty thirties, and I
think we try to avoid very specific numbers until we're
fairly confident we can actually deliver on those. So early
twenty thirties. Our first plant will be in Virginia, and
we've actually also signed they're called a power purchase agreement.
Basically someone signed up to buy your electricity. We've signed
one with Google and one with any which is an
Italian energy company. They'll both buy electricity from the same
(16:14):
plant in Virginia. There's other companies working on this helion
as one of them. I think different companies have slightly
different philosophies of like how ambitious to be with their timelines.
We think our timelines are like very ambitious, but also realistic.
I think maybe there's some skepticism as to how realistic
other people's timelines are. But at some level it's good
to be ambitious, like going fast is good, as Gaby
(16:36):
said earlier, like anyone gets fusion working, that's good for
the world, Like that's good for humanity. And so we're
rooting for these other companies. It's a friendly rivalry. We
are working toward our timelines. We think our times are realistic,
and other people they have their own technology, they have
their own timelines that they're working toward.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
So I mean, you very clearly articulated the mission, which
is getting energy onto the grid. That's the clearest articulation
of the mission that I've I've heard talk about what
does it mean to get the energy onto the grid?
And why is that the mission?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Because we are in this path and it really is
about the burning of fossil fuels. We can go on
and on about the many things, but it's the burning
of fossil fuels, which if you look at it in abstraction,
is a really bad idea, right, but it produces energy.
It's like we're taking dead fossils, taking it out of
(17:23):
the earth, burning it, shooting it to the atmosphere. It's
just like the process is so polluting, it's like burning death.
Like I don't want to be too dramatic, but literally,
And so it is the burning of fossil fuels that
has to stop. And it's not raining in the Amazons.
I don't want to ruin your day, but it's not
(17:44):
raining in the Amazons. It's like we are in a
really pivotal point where all the dreams that we had
to control the temperature that's done. That doesn't mean we're
still not going to need fusion. So as soon as
we can get the burning of fossil fuels with whatever
technology that has the scale, because we know that wind
and solar don't have the scale to take this, and.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
They also harder to integrate onto the grid because their fluctuations.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
Right yeah, and wind and solar are great, they're great,
we should do more of it, but they have their challenges.
And it's like, especially in areas that they have fluctuations
that aren't well suited, Like places are cloudy all the time,
probably you shouldn't install a bunch of solar. And then
especially in like big population centers, so like we're in
New York City, it's really hard to power all of
New York City with wind and solar. You just need
so much land and then all the transmission of getting
(18:32):
the electricity from wherever you made it to where you
need it. That big cities are much better suited to
like a box that makes electricity, yeah, rather than like
like collecting it out of the environment. That's where fusion
strong point is is like it is big population centers,
it is areas that are really energy intensive, and then
it helps smooth out all the challenges of wind and
solar that are on and off and on and off.
(18:54):
You can do energy storage, but that adds up pretty
quickly as well as being challenging, especially when you if
you're so much wind but then it's not windy for
a week. You know, a lot of energy storage, but
fusion allows you to like smooth all that out with stuff.
We call it firm, but it's like on when you
need it, off when you don't energy.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
What needs to happen between now and the twenty thirties
for you to achieve your mission.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
Yeah, it's a great question. A lot of things, and
I'll start with like, we have to finish developing the technology.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
You can create the heat, but what can you not do?
Speaker 4 (19:22):
Yeah, so we can create the heat, but right now
it takes more energy to do the fusion process. Then
you get out of the future process. So it's like
a really cool science experiment. You can make fusion happen,
but it's not a power plant, and so there's a
lot of technologies that goes into getting that final step
and then efficiently getting the heat out and using it
for something. There's a lot of scientists and engineers all
(19:43):
around the world working on this. People really care about this,
like people have dedicated their careers to making this happen.
In addition to that, we need a supply chain. So
like building one power plant awesome, really cool, great for
a step, Like we need a lot of these. It's
like to really make an impact on the grid, To
really make an impact on carbon emissions, you need thousands
of power plants. So we need to develop global supply
(20:05):
chains who can make all the stuff that you put
into a power plant. We need the right policy. So
having governments around the world combination of encourage people to
do fusion but also regulate it in an appropriate framework.
We want to do this very safely, but we want
to do it appropriately, So we want to regulate things
appropriately for the actual risks of them. And so getting
(20:25):
the right regulatory and framework around the world and getting
awareness in so like one of the big philosophies that
CFS has had is like, we only want to go
into communities that want us there, So we don't want
to like bust down the door and be like we're
building a power plan here, like too bad for you.
And so having people who are aware of fusion, who
are interested in fusion, who are excited about fusion really
helps us go build power plants because then people are
(20:46):
like no, no, no, please come here, like we want
this new power plan here. So you need all these
pieces to come together to build power plants.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
The Ft said, in seven decades of experiments, no group
has developed a machine that can produce more energy than
the power hungry devices consume. You believe that's about to change.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
It has changed. So twenty twenty two, a lab in
California that Lawrence Livermore National Lab produced more energy out
than in. That's the first time ever in human history
that's happened. And it was after the Financial Times article,
so it's yeah, an update and.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
After my show.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
So I looked like I was like some oracle and
like it's like three months later.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, it was like and then it was more onto
like and people started texting me, oh my god, this
fusion thing, and I'm like timing, and so.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
We hope to be the second place to do that.
So this lab in California has done it. We hope
to be the second place to do that. And then
the next step is go from make more energy out
to make enough more energy out that you can make
a power plant.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
And Gabrielle, what's changed since you did the show?
Speaker 5 (21:43):
This is a big change.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I do think that there is much more awareness that
breakthrough got a lot of media attention. When I started,
the AI boom wasn't happening, Like AI was talked about
the fear of AI, but it wasn't like a booming.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
So I think it is definitely something that is really
thought through.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeahs as the need and as you said, the very
good definition of power hungry devices.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
It's true.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
One of the reasons, I mean, we were going to
build a power plant regardless of AI. One of the
reasons we're building it specifically in Virginia is because of
data centers. The Virginia area has so many data centers
they really, really, really need more electricity. And so they
were again very excited. Both the individual community was excited
because it was a fusion plant, but like the state
of Virginia and like the power producers there were very
(22:31):
excited that fusion was coming because they need electricity.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
I mean, also just how the culture has changed, right
Like if you look at twenty twelve period with AI,
there was like Jeffrey Hinton, who just won the Nobel Prize.
He and his lab couldn't get access to the supercomputers
at the leading universities, so they bought in video chips,
figured out how to basically engineer them to be AI chips,
(22:53):
and this amazing boom was born. What's changed in terms
of the culture, in terms of the perception of the
industry since you've been working in it at Eggs and
what still needs to change.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
I've been in fusion now for ten years. It's a
little bit longer. I started started undergrad doing some internships,
and I think at the time it was still viewed
as an academic pursuit. It was a scientific interest. I
got into fusion for the Climate Mission, for the Energy
Mission of like we need energy, and we want clean energy,
we want for an energy but broadly it was still
in the academic realm. And over those ten years people
(23:27):
have realized that like, no, no, this is coming soon
right on this precipice. It's like fusion, Like it feels
impossible until all of a sudden it feels inevitable. I
mean like powered flights the same way. Like a week
before the Wright brothers through their airplane, there was like
this whole article about how flight's impossible and like we
should stop this folly of that, you know, to waste
the time. That's really changed. I think that a lot
of the attitude around the world has changed, like yeah,
(23:49):
this is you know, some crazy scientists.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Like whatever I was confronted constantly is like from really
smart people that I respect, like this is not gonna
even happen. I remember when we did the panel in Cops. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
And what was the name of the former Dee arnimonies yes, yes,
he was a non believer and he turned his believer.
(24:11):
So there's there's a lot of believers now. Also, we
haven't really talked that it doesn't use uranium.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
We're getting close, and I think the world recognizes that,
and I think which is great also because because of
the awareness, we get help and support from a much
wider range of people than we would have ten years ago.
So suppliers we go, we need to order this weird
part and like ten years ago and be like yeah, yeah,
get in line, like you know, maybe someday they're like, oh,
this is for fusion, great, like front of the line,
like we'll make this thing for you.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
So it's mostly exciting.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Yeah, it's all. It's all sorts of stuff ranging from
like big things of small things that are moving this
faster carbrio.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
You mentioned uranium. Why and what are the misconceptions that
you're battling.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
No, it's not the misconception. It's just that we know
that uranium can be weaponized and fision, yeah for fiicient,
not for fusion, and fusion doesn't use uranium, and this
idea of energy that is not weaponized it's very appealing.
Just to be clear, I have nothing against about nuclear fission,
Like I'm like make nuclear great again. It's as I
(25:12):
get the end of the day, we want to replace
fossil fuels. That's that is and it's going to take
a whole landscape of energy, right, fusion, wind, solar, geo thermal,
now the technology to get geo thermal. It's like advancing
as well from areas that usually wouldn't have geo thermal.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
Yeah, you can think of it like like there's a
portfolio of ergy, just like the same way you like
a financial portfolio. It's like portfolio of energy solutions that
each are good in certain areas but maybe more challenging
other areas.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
And if this works, would it not become one hundred
percent No?
Speaker 4 (25:44):
No, Like fusion is great, it has a bunch.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Of country like mine doesn't need fusion. Uruay is completely hydro,
does not need fusion. All the energy that was producing
my country is clean because we didn't have oil and
to import oil is very very expensive. So for US,
oil wasn't the easy option. But how do you power
this country? Oh, we have a lot of rivers, so
you'reways one of the cleanest countries in the world.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Self promoting my country or like Iceland has geo thermal. Yeah,
they don't need they don't need a bunch of fusion.
But like large population centers or it's like very remote
areas like there's like very few people when in solar
are so much better, Like you don't need a giant
power plant. Yeah, but for cities, especially for countries that
are very oil intensive or very natural gas intensive or
coal like that's for fusion.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Big magnufacturing, big magnufacturing data center.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
It's part of a portfolio. It's not like fusion is
not the solution everything. It's part of a portfolio.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Can you clear fusion save the planet? How? On on
what timeline?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
The answer is yes, Yes, definitely is going to be
one of the leading energies. And for those that want
to leave the planet, they think they have to go
to Mars, they even need fusion for their rockets. So
without fusion they cannot even leave. So fusion is gonna
happen one way. For those that are really ambitioning to
be out of I mean I like it here, they
(27:01):
are going to need chuation for their rockets.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
So one way or an now or chuation has to happen.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Yeah, I mean I think the having fusion in the
world just makes a lot of things better. It reduces
all of our emissions. You can also think of it
as like energy is no longer a thing that you
have to dig out of the ground. That like some
countries have it in the ground, some countries don't. People
fight wars over that. Yeah, Like fusion means energy is
a manufactured product. You don't have to fight wars over
energy Anymoreah, there's emissions things that about fusion that would
(27:28):
be great. There's like geopolitical things about fusion that would
be great, and like on what timeline like soon, Like
I think the more help we can get, like the
more people around the world that know about fusion, that
are excited, that can take their talents from wherever they
come from and like apply it to fusion, like, the
faster it's.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Going to be.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I definitely feel much better informed after this than I
did before. And thank you for laying out something which
feels complicated and scary in a way which was easy
to consume and understand.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
Thank you for having us, Thank you for having us.
(28:14):
That's it for this week for tech stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
I'm Kara Price and I'm os Voloshin this episode, was
produced by Eliza Dennis, Tyler Hill and Melissa Slaughter. It
was executive produced by me Karra Price, Julian Nutter, and
Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvel for iHeart Podcast.
Kyle Murdoch mixed this episode and you also rode theme song.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Join us on Friday for the Week in Tech, where
we'll run through the headlines you need to follow.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
And please do rate and review the show wherever you listen,
and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast at
gmail dot com with all of your thoughts and feedback.
We love hearing from you.
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