February 17, 2016 • 17 mins
In some ways our stuff is ourselves – it tells a story about who we are. But why do some of us develop pathological attachments to objects?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From how Stuff Works dot com. This is the Stuff
of Life. Welcome to the Stuff of Life. I'm your host,
Julie Douglas, and today we have a companion to the
previous episode on eternity in the ways that we try
to immortalize ourselves, like creating a digital avatar or a
(00:22):
time capsule. This episode is about the objects we might
put into a time capsule or a storage unit, or
even a box of memorabilia that we just can't seem
to get rid of. Why do we hold on so tightly?
In some ways, our stuff is ourselves. It tells a
story about who we are, and hey, if it sticks around,
(00:44):
maybe we will too. It becomes a kind of talisman
against death. But that doesn't explain why some of us
develop pathological attachments to things. Ruined that movie with Tom Hanks,
he got attached to the ball and he named it Wilson.
(01:04):
I think that was part of his survival mechanism, is
to feel like he had a connection to something or someone.
And so people often who have been hurt by individuals
throughout their lives through by people, turned to objects and
or even animals to feel like they have a sense
of connection. That's dr Rebecca Beaton, a psychologist and director
(01:26):
of the Anxiety and Stress Management Institute. We talked to
her about why we project ourselves onto objects and how
these projections can morph into insidious relationships with our belongings.
But first, let's explore the mounting evidence that most of
us have a lot of stuff, perhaps too much stuff.
That's the whole meaning of life, isn't it. Trying to
(01:47):
find a place for your stuff. Sometimes you've got to move.
You gotta get a bigger house. Why too much stuff?
You've got to move all your stuff? And maybe he's
put some of your stuff in storage. Imagine that there's
a whole industry based on keeping an eye on your stuff.
That's from George Carlin's appearance at Comic Relief in nineteen
(02:10):
eighties six. His observation of our quest to accumulate was
spot on. According to the Self Storage Association, it took
the industry more than twenty five years to build its
first billion square feet of space ah, but it added
its second billion square feet in just eight years between
two thousand and five. In nine six, Carlin was tapping
(02:33):
into a preoccupation with storing our stuff. This preoccupation is
very much an American thing. Household throughout the United States
have used self storage at least one in the last
ten years or so. The latest numbers showed that nine
point five percent of all US households have a self
storage unit that they're actively using, and that comes out
(02:55):
to a little less than eleven million people in the
United States right now, and Canada and Australia have somewhat
really United States resident here are the ones that really
you felt storage more than in any other country. That's
freelance writer and editor of Midwest Real Estate News Dan Rafter.
In he reported that the American landscape was studded with
(03:17):
nearly fifty thousand self storage facilities, eclipsing familiar landmarks like
McDonald's to become one of the most common roadside buildings.
Turns out we use self storage for lots of reasons,
but most boiled down to change in the form of death, divorce, downsizing,
(03:38):
and dislocation. Dan Rafter isolates three high profile examples of
people who paid money to store their extraneous goods. For Reynolds,
the actor came up a lot. Apparently he was a
big user of self storage, and one of his self
storage units he had stored the canoe from delivering and
then Joe Jackson. Michael Jackson's father had a storage unit
(03:59):
and he had about two seventy unreleased recordings from Michael
jacks and stored away in there that he had forgotten about.
We're just one I found. I had read that there
was a storage locker. A person who owned it had
passed away, and they went inside and they found something
wrapped in tinfoil, and when they opened up, they thought
it was me, but it actually turned out to be
this person's amputated leg. And want problem there? I have
(04:25):
a one humans. It's from manasal got me grows down.
Here's what I found out about the third example. Sometimes
people default on their self storage payments and their items
are auctioned off. In two thousand and seven, Shannon Whisnant
bought the contents of a storage unit and discovered a
severed foot inside of a grill, and, as detailed in
(04:47):
the recent documentary Finders Keepers, a legal battle over ownership
ensued between Wizman and the man to whom the foot
originally belonged. John Wood was just like three years ago,
and that's just one hurdle light has thrown at him.
Over by stating dump truck electro charity. I've been an
unbelievable character, isn't it. It's an example of layering an
(05:13):
object with meaning and in this case, ultimately coming to
represent for both men the idea that if they possessed it,
it couldn't make them whole. Tricky logic, for sure, But
the more you learn about their individual stories, the more
you come to understand that the root of their logic
is steeped in trauma. I lost my leg in the
(05:34):
plane crash, and I lost my father. After the crash,
they send you home campf con and nobody says anything
about the indiction. That's what about killed? And I would
have just kept on what I was doing. It's really
all I had was that leg. Trauma is front and
center when it comes to Dr Beaton and her clients,
(05:55):
particularly those who suffer from hoarding disorder. A lot of
people who are are connected to things to the point
of causing functional impairment in their lives, either socially or emotionally,
uh with their occupations or there they've come to the
point where they are actually hoarding, have experienced tw more
(06:20):
trauma than the average person. That's a lot of trauma,
and these generally have to do with people hurting them
or loss of individuals. Did you you need look no
further than an infant whose physiological development is wholly dependent
(06:40):
on a connection through touch to see that the need
for attachment is hardwired into all of us. Our nervous
system does not operate in a vacuum. We have to
regulate our nervous system by connecting with other individuals. There's
actually a whole theory about the vague nerve that you've
(07:00):
got to stimulate your vague nerve in order to process
emotions uh intellectually, cerebral e and in order to activate
our entire system to work properly. And you have to
have human connection with somebody that's safe and secure. So
there there's these biological reasons for connection, and when somebody's
(07:22):
not connecting to humans, they've got to find something to
connect to. It's an elaborative processing problem, a kind of
cognitive processing that deals with assigning meaning and importance when
making decisions. It's the reason why someone who hoards assesses
an object differently, with a wider net of associations that
(07:44):
allows them to see details and uses for things that
most people would never conceive of. There's an acronym ount
there which I don't like because it's not very positive.
But it's sick S I, C K. And the part
I do like is what it stands for is S
this for sensitive, I is for intelligent, C is for creative,
(08:04):
and K is for kind. Most people who hoarde have
all those attributes. They tend to be very intelligent. I
mean often in times they have advanced degrees. Then you've
got the creative component, where you know they just see
so many options in one small item, and they they
want to do something creative with each of these objects.
(08:26):
They anthropomorphize items where everything has feelings. They are really
kind individuals. Certainly you can see you can find a
hoarder that has become sort of hardened over time that
doesn't come across very kind at first, but usually underneath
it all there's a soft center. This is perhaps why
(08:49):
there's an irrational fear of letting go of an object.
And it looks like this. Now you have seen countless hordes,
if you've stepped inside people's homes hundreds, yes, yes, when
you go in, do those hordes tell you a story?
More specifically about what's happening absolutely, because every hoarder is
(09:11):
a little different, and there they could. I mean, at
some point, I think they're going to come out with
different types of hoarders because you have more of your
addictive hoarder where they are addicted to shopping that cannot
stop acquiring or dumpster diving. I've seen that and they
have just bags of things they've never even opened up everywhere.
(09:33):
We're just just dumped in places because they're all about
the acquiring and there's no rhyme or reason to where
everything is. Then you have the hoarder who is hiding
behind a bunker. You walk in and there's a wall
of clothes or stacks of boxes blocking certain areas, particularly
like entrances or windows, or blocking off certain rooms because
(09:57):
of memories in those rooms. A marriage that went sour
in the bedroom is the first place it gets hoarded.
The hoard basically just tells a story what happened. So
how common is hoarding disorder and how much of it
is genetic? It is actually becoming more and more common.
(10:20):
It's become a disorder now officially and our our manual
psychiatric disorders a few years ago that people are realizing, oh,
that's what my aunt is doing, or that's what my
grandma was doing when I was growing up, because we
didn't really understand it before. Three to five percent of
(10:48):
the population has hoarding disorder to the point where they
meet the criteria for functional impairment of some kind due
to the hoarding. People diagnosed with hoarding disorder have an
eighty four percent chance of having a first degree relative
who also has hoarding disorder. We know that there's this
hereditary component, there's also learned behavior involved. We want to
(11:11):
think about the nature nurture question. If you've got a
first degree relative of a parent that's hoarding, they're teaching
a child how to hoard as well. So you've got
this propensity one way or the other, and then the
loss on top of it sort of sets it off
exponentially throughout the years of life. Hoarding also tends to
(11:34):
show itself in adolescents but then manifest later in life.
People who have hoarding disorder tend to either begin the
disorder in childhood or adolescents have just a touch of
it where they're just a little bit, you know, more
attached to things than the average person. But what happens
is throughout the course of life, they have more and
(11:56):
more trauma and more stressors. They have a lot more
loss and so they show up with hoarding disorder generally
around age fifty five. That's the mean age. One thing
that surprises a lot of people is the fact that
there are more men who hoard than women. That always
seems to come as a shocker. I do think that
(12:17):
men are more reluctant to get social support, They're more
reluctant to ask for help, and they also historically have
had we're talking about, you know, a mean age of
fifty five. Historically they've had the burden of being the
provider in the family. That's changed, of course in modern times.
But we're talking to, you know, people in their fifties
and sixties right now. Those folks the idea of providing
(12:40):
was on their shoulders, so they've got to make sure
they've had that item just in case they needed. Dr
Eaton says that for small hoards, it can take up
to two years for someone to work through their stuff.
I think of a web of associations gold up like
(13:00):
the knots and a pile of wires or necklaces. Those
associations that bind the object to the person have to
be teased a part carefully, and because language is freighted
with emotion, it's also important to use select words. You
have to use certain language around letting go to because
(13:20):
if they've had a lot of loss, letting go is
probably not the appropriate word. Um Finding a new home
for it almost always works. So if you can find
a charity that they really like, somebody's going to be
able to use the item on a daily basis. That
if you you can. You know if they say if
they love animals, that they find a charity that benefits animals,
(13:41):
and most of people who hoard love animals, by the way,
that just goes along with it. There's so many components
of non acquisition. Teach them how to organize, Teach them
how to find new ways of keeping the memory or
working with the items so they can actually part with them.
(14:05):
Without this understanding, someone trying to help could do some
serious damage by rushing in and bagging up with facey
as useless items. It is such a complicated disorder. I
encourage people to learn about it. Two, if you're a
professional and you want to work with people who who
are you need some serious training. This is not an
(14:26):
easy disorder to work with. The one thing I would
want people to know is this is truly a mental disorder.
This isn't the fact that they're stubborn or messy or dirty.
That this is a mental disorder, and that there's so
much trauma generally involved. These individuals are in a ton
(14:47):
of pain, and to have more compassion for them, we
all cling to something for comfort, and then something started
in childhood with a favorite phrase, edge blanket or a
worn toy. What we now know as transitional objects meant
to bridge a child's inner world with his or her
(15:09):
outer world. So it's easy to see how someone could
turn to objects over and over again as a source
of stability and contentment, especially if we recast our understanding
of hoarding disorder as a processing disorder. After all, we
accept that there are synithets people who senses are crisscrossed,
(15:29):
like someone who perceives a deep blue color when she
sees the number eight, or another person who hears guitar
music and his ankles suddenly tickle. Is it possible to
accept that people who hoard might inhabit a similar realm,
one triggered by trauma, in which a simple lifeless object
becomes animated in the imagination and takes on a rich
(15:53):
emotional life. The Stuff of Life is written and co
produced by me Julie Douglas. Original music and sound design
is by co producer Noel Brown. This episode also features
music by the artists Mad and Fields, Ohio. Editorial oversight
(16:16):
is provided by Heavy Protection Jerry Rowland. So what is
it that you can't part with? And why the one
thing I have kept from my high school years. It's
kind of help me as a sort of a geeky guy,
but I played the clarinet in the high school band,
in the marching band, and I haven't played it since
graduating in school. But I really enjoyed being in the band,
(16:38):
so I haven't been able to get rid of that.
For me, it's a mound of pyrite with a silver
wizard perched on top. It's sat on my dresser between
the ages of thirteen and eighteen and represents all the awkwardness,
wonder and terror of being a teenager. Email us your
story about your object of action at the Stuff of
(17:02):
Life at how stuff works dot com and if you
like what you hear, make sure to drop a review
on iTunes and you can also find us on Twitter
and Facebook as the Stuff of Life.
From how Stuff Works dot com. This is the Stuff
of Life. Welcome to the Stuff of Life. I'm your host,
Julie Douglas, and today we have a companion to the
previous episode on eternity in the ways that we try
to immortalize ourselves, like creating a digital avatar or a
(00:22):
time capsule. This episode is about the objects we might
put into a time capsule or a storage unit, or
even a box of memorabilia that we just can't seem
to get rid of. Why do we hold on so tightly?
In some ways, our stuff is ourselves. It tells a
story about who we are, and hey, if it sticks around,
(00:44):
maybe we will too. It becomes a kind of talisman
against death. But that doesn't explain why some of us
develop pathological attachments to things. Ruined that movie with Tom Hanks,
he got attached to the ball and he named it Wilson.
(01:04):
I think that was part of his survival mechanism, is
to feel like he had a connection to something or someone.
And so people often who have been hurt by individuals
throughout their lives through by people, turned to objects and
or even animals to feel like they have a sense
of connection. That's dr Rebecca Beaton, a psychologist and director
(01:26):
of the Anxiety and Stress Management Institute. We talked to
her about why we project ourselves onto objects and how
these projections can morph into insidious relationships with our belongings.
But first, let's explore the mounting evidence that most of
us have a lot of stuff, perhaps too much stuff.
That's the whole meaning of life, isn't it. Trying to
(01:47):
find a place for your stuff. Sometimes you've got to move.
You gotta get a bigger house. Why too much stuff?
You've got to move all your stuff? And maybe he's
put some of your stuff in storage. Imagine that there's
a whole industry based on keeping an eye on your stuff.
That's from George Carlin's appearance at Comic Relief in nineteen
(02:10):
eighties six. His observation of our quest to accumulate was
spot on. According to the Self Storage Association, it took
the industry more than twenty five years to build its
first billion square feet of space ah, but it added
its second billion square feet in just eight years between
two thousand and five. In nine six, Carlin was tapping
(02:33):
into a preoccupation with storing our stuff. This preoccupation is
very much an American thing. Household throughout the United States
have used self storage at least one in the last
ten years or so. The latest numbers showed that nine
point five percent of all US households have a self
storage unit that they're actively using, and that comes out
(02:55):
to a little less than eleven million people in the
United States right now, and Canada and Australia have somewhat
really United States resident here are the ones that really
you felt storage more than in any other country. That's
freelance writer and editor of Midwest Real Estate News Dan Rafter.
In he reported that the American landscape was studded with
(03:17):
nearly fifty thousand self storage facilities, eclipsing familiar landmarks like
McDonald's to become one of the most common roadside buildings.
Turns out we use self storage for lots of reasons,
but most boiled down to change in the form of death, divorce, downsizing,
(03:38):
and dislocation. Dan Rafter isolates three high profile examples of
people who paid money to store their extraneous goods. For Reynolds,
the actor came up a lot. Apparently he was a
big user of self storage, and one of his self
storage units he had stored the canoe from delivering and
then Joe Jackson. Michael Jackson's father had a storage unit
(03:59):
and he had about two seventy unreleased recordings from Michael
jacks and stored away in there that he had forgotten about.
We're just one I found. I had read that there
was a storage locker. A person who owned it had
passed away, and they went inside and they found something
wrapped in tinfoil, and when they opened up, they thought
it was me, but it actually turned out to be
this person's amputated leg. And want problem there? I have
(04:25):
a one humans. It's from manasal got me grows down.
Here's what I found out about the third example. Sometimes
people default on their self storage payments and their items
are auctioned off. In two thousand and seven, Shannon Whisnant
bought the contents of a storage unit and discovered a
severed foot inside of a grill, and, as detailed in
(04:47):
the recent documentary Finders Keepers, a legal battle over ownership
ensued between Wizman and the man to whom the foot
originally belonged. John Wood was just like three years ago,
and that's just one hurdle light has thrown at him.
Over by stating dump truck electro charity. I've been an
unbelievable character, isn't it. It's an example of layering an
(05:13):
object with meaning and in this case, ultimately coming to
represent for both men the idea that if they possessed it,
it couldn't make them whole. Tricky logic, for sure, But
the more you learn about their individual stories, the more
you come to understand that the root of their logic
is steeped in trauma. I lost my leg in the
(05:34):
plane crash, and I lost my father. After the crash,
they send you home campf con and nobody says anything
about the indiction. That's what about killed? And I would
have just kept on what I was doing. It's really
all I had was that leg. Trauma is front and
center when it comes to Dr Beaton and her clients,
(05:55):
particularly those who suffer from hoarding disorder. A lot of
people who are are connected to things to the point
of causing functional impairment in their lives, either socially or emotionally,
uh with their occupations or there they've come to the
point where they are actually hoarding, have experienced tw more
(06:20):
trauma than the average person. That's a lot of trauma,
and these generally have to do with people hurting them
or loss of individuals. Did you you need look no
further than an infant whose physiological development is wholly dependent
(06:40):
on a connection through touch to see that the need
for attachment is hardwired into all of us. Our nervous
system does not operate in a vacuum. We have to
regulate our nervous system by connecting with other individuals. There's
actually a whole theory about the vague nerve that you've
(07:00):
got to stimulate your vague nerve in order to process
emotions uh intellectually, cerebral e and in order to activate
our entire system to work properly. And you have to
have human connection with somebody that's safe and secure. So
there there's these biological reasons for connection, and when somebody's
(07:22):
not connecting to humans, they've got to find something to
connect to. It's an elaborative processing problem, a kind of
cognitive processing that deals with assigning meaning and importance when
making decisions. It's the reason why someone who hoards assesses
an object differently, with a wider net of associations that
(07:44):
allows them to see details and uses for things that
most people would never conceive of. There's an acronym ount
there which I don't like because it's not very positive.
But it's sick S I, C K. And the part
I do like is what it stands for is S
this for sensitive, I is for intelligent, C is for creative,
(08:04):
and K is for kind. Most people who hoarde have
all those attributes. They tend to be very intelligent. I
mean often in times they have advanced degrees. Then you've
got the creative component, where you know they just see
so many options in one small item, and they they
want to do something creative with each of these objects.
(08:26):
They anthropomorphize items where everything has feelings. They are really
kind individuals. Certainly you can see you can find a
hoarder that has become sort of hardened over time that
doesn't come across very kind at first, but usually underneath
it all there's a soft center. This is perhaps why
(08:49):
there's an irrational fear of letting go of an object.
And it looks like this. Now you have seen countless hordes,
if you've stepped inside people's homes hundreds, yes, yes, when
you go in, do those hordes tell you a story?
More specifically about what's happening absolutely, because every hoarder is
(09:11):
a little different, and there they could. I mean, at
some point, I think they're going to come out with
different types of hoarders because you have more of your
addictive hoarder where they are addicted to shopping that cannot
stop acquiring or dumpster diving. I've seen that and they
have just bags of things they've never even opened up everywhere.
(09:33):
We're just just dumped in places because they're all about
the acquiring and there's no rhyme or reason to where
everything is. Then you have the hoarder who is hiding
behind a bunker. You walk in and there's a wall
of clothes or stacks of boxes blocking certain areas, particularly
like entrances or windows, or blocking off certain rooms because
(09:57):
of memories in those rooms. A marriage that went sour
in the bedroom is the first place it gets hoarded.
The hoard basically just tells a story what happened. So
how common is hoarding disorder and how much of it
is genetic? It is actually becoming more and more common.
(10:20):
It's become a disorder now officially and our our manual
psychiatric disorders a few years ago that people are realizing, oh,
that's what my aunt is doing, or that's what my
grandma was doing when I was growing up, because we
didn't really understand it before. Three to five percent of
(10:48):
the population has hoarding disorder to the point where they
meet the criteria for functional impairment of some kind due
to the hoarding. People diagnosed with hoarding disorder have an
eighty four percent chance of having a first degree relative
who also has hoarding disorder. We know that there's this
hereditary component, there's also learned behavior involved. We want to
(11:11):
think about the nature nurture question. If you've got a
first degree relative of a parent that's hoarding, they're teaching
a child how to hoard as well. So you've got
this propensity one way or the other, and then the
loss on top of it sort of sets it off
exponentially throughout the years of life. Hoarding also tends to
(11:34):
show itself in adolescents but then manifest later in life.
People who have hoarding disorder tend to either begin the
disorder in childhood or adolescents have just a touch of
it where they're just a little bit, you know, more
attached to things than the average person. But what happens
is throughout the course of life, they have more and
(11:56):
more trauma and more stressors. They have a lot more
loss and so they show up with hoarding disorder generally
around age fifty five. That's the mean age. One thing
that surprises a lot of people is the fact that
there are more men who hoard than women. That always
seems to come as a shocker. I do think that
(12:17):
men are more reluctant to get social support, They're more
reluctant to ask for help, and they also historically have
had we're talking about, you know, a mean age of
fifty five. Historically they've had the burden of being the
provider in the family. That's changed, of course in modern times.
But we're talking to, you know, people in their fifties
and sixties right now. Those folks the idea of providing
(12:40):
was on their shoulders, so they've got to make sure
they've had that item just in case they needed. Dr
Eaton says that for small hoards, it can take up
to two years for someone to work through their stuff.
I think of a web of associations gold up like
(13:00):
the knots and a pile of wires or necklaces. Those
associations that bind the object to the person have to
be teased a part carefully, and because language is freighted
with emotion, it's also important to use select words. You
have to use certain language around letting go to because
(13:20):
if they've had a lot of loss, letting go is
probably not the appropriate word. Um Finding a new home
for it almost always works. So if you can find
a charity that they really like, somebody's going to be
able to use the item on a daily basis. That
if you you can. You know if they say if
they love animals, that they find a charity that benefits animals,
(13:41):
and most of people who hoard love animals, by the way,
that just goes along with it. There's so many components
of non acquisition. Teach them how to organize, Teach them
how to find new ways of keeping the memory or
working with the items so they can actually part with them.
(14:05):
Without this understanding, someone trying to help could do some
serious damage by rushing in and bagging up with facey
as useless items. It is such a complicated disorder. I
encourage people to learn about it. Two, if you're a
professional and you want to work with people who who
are you need some serious training. This is not an
(14:26):
easy disorder to work with. The one thing I would
want people to know is this is truly a mental disorder.
This isn't the fact that they're stubborn or messy or dirty.
That this is a mental disorder, and that there's so
much trauma generally involved. These individuals are in a ton
(14:47):
of pain, and to have more compassion for them, we
all cling to something for comfort, and then something started
in childhood with a favorite phrase, edge blanket or a
worn toy. What we now know as transitional objects meant
to bridge a child's inner world with his or her
(15:09):
outer world. So it's easy to see how someone could
turn to objects over and over again as a source
of stability and contentment, especially if we recast our understanding
of hoarding disorder as a processing disorder. After all, we
accept that there are synithets people who senses are crisscrossed,
(15:29):
like someone who perceives a deep blue color when she
sees the number eight, or another person who hears guitar
music and his ankles suddenly tickle. Is it possible to
accept that people who hoard might inhabit a similar realm,
one triggered by trauma, in which a simple lifeless object
becomes animated in the imagination and takes on a rich
(15:53):
emotional life. The Stuff of Life is written and co
produced by me Julie Douglas. Original music and sound design
is by co producer Noel Brown. This episode also features
music by the artists Mad and Fields, Ohio. Editorial oversight
(16:16):
is provided by Heavy Protection Jerry Rowland. So what is
it that you can't part with? And why the one
thing I have kept from my high school years. It's
kind of help me as a sort of a geeky guy,
but I played the clarinet in the high school band,
in the marching band, and I haven't played it since
graduating in school. But I really enjoyed being in the band,
(16:38):
so I haven't been able to get rid of that.
For me, it's a mound of pyrite with a silver
wizard perched on top. It's sat on my dresser between
the ages of thirteen and eighteen and represents all the awkwardness,
wonder and terror of being a teenager. Email us your
story about your object of action at the Stuff of
(17:02):
Life at how stuff works dot com and if you
like what you hear, make sure to drop a review
on iTunes and you can also find us on Twitter
and Facebook as the Stuff of Life.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com