December 1, 2025 • 47 mins
In your 20s you're told to be as ambitious as you can be, go after your dreams, work hard, be delusional, pursue your passion at any cost. How can we do that without our lives and health crumbling? What is the balance between ambition and appreciation? In today's episode we bring on Amina AlTai, author of The Ambition Trap to talk about:
- Why having more ambition doesn’t always make you more successful
- How a scarcity mindset can ruin your 20s
- How to find your ‘zone of genius’
- When to say ‘no’ to something you really want to do
- How to lean into the slower seasons of life
- The miserable paradox of success
- When do you need to ‘lock in’ & when do you need to have fun?
If you've ever struggled with balancing your big goals with your desire to enjoy life, this episode is for you.
Buy Amina's book HERE
Follow Amina HERE
Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg
Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast
For business: psychologyofyour20s@gmail.com
The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the
Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through
the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and
what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back
(00:26):
to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. I am
so excited to have you here back for another episode.
Being an ambitious person is so obviously deeply applauded by
our society. We love, we are obsessed with. We want
to see success stories of people who have started businesses,
(00:46):
who are self made, who are entrepreneurs, authors, leaders, creators, founders,
especially when they're young. But on the other side of
ambition is this very real burnout and this very real
struggle with how much is enough? How will I know
when I'm happy? How can I balance working hard and
(01:10):
having a life, especially in our twenties, when we don't
want to miss out on experiences, but we also don't
want to miss out on our future or the opportunities
that are presented to us today. I invited somebody on
the podcast who knows more about this balancing act than
most people this conversation. It honestly meant a lot to me,
(01:32):
it's really a real it's a deep depiction of things
that I'm currently working through. As you will probably hear,
I am very excited by this episode. We talk about perfectionism, ambition, failure, rejection,
joy and how to go after what you want deeply
and passionately whilst also still allowing yourself to have a
(01:55):
life without further ado. I want to introduce our lovely, beautiful,
wonderful guests to the show. Amana. Thank you so much
for joining us.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Thank you so much for having me. Gemma, I am
so excited.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Can you introduce like I could introduce you if you
wanted me to, but I feel like you could say
it better tell the listeners what you're about, who you
are about this book that you've written as well.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Thank you so much so. I'm Anna Altai. I'm an
executive coach and author and speaker, and I work with
people in moments of great change around their careers and everybody,
from folks that are in their twenties to people that
are in their sixties, and the commonality is it's people
that really want to finally do work that is true
to them and their soul and their calling. Because so
(02:39):
many of us are just indoctrinated to work in the
shoulds and do what we think our parents wanted and
take the linear career path that was laid out for us.
And so you know, this work I think of as
a homecoming and a way to do it in a
way that is really true to who we are. And
I just wrote a book. I spent two and a
half years writing this book called The Ambition Track app
(03:00):
And I wanted to write a book about ambition because
I'm a highly ambitious person and so are my clients.
And it was just really expensive for me. What I
noticed was that I had all these desires to grow,
but it cost me a lot. It actually cost me
my health. And I tell this story in the book
where I was twenty eight years old. I was six
years into my career and I had been working so
(03:20):
hard the eighty hour weeks and just the first one
in the last one out and I ended up burning
out and developing two autoimmune diseases. But it happened in
this really dramatic fashion where I got a call from
my doctor on a Friday as I was going to work,
and she said, if you don't go to the hospital
now instead of going to work, you'll be days away
from multiple organ failure. And it's like what twenty eight
(03:43):
year old gets that phone call? Right, So, like, very
early in my career, I realized my relationship to success
and growth was kind of killing me, and so I
had to learn another way very quickly, and so I
went on my eat, pray, lovey is what I call it,
and I studied all these things from coaching to mindfulness
to semantics, and then eventually just felt so much better
using these these tools of my own life that I
(04:05):
decided that I wanted to put it all together and
teach others. And so I'm a coach and I take
what I call a mind, body, and career approach to coaching,
so that we're really looking at all the different pieces
and parts of us. And so in the book The
Ambition Trap, I'm exploring all of that how we can
have a healthy, more harmonious relationship with ambition and growth
without it hurting us or others.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And that's just absolutely wild for you to say that
you are twenty eight years old experiencing well about to
experience multiple organ failure, and that's a shocking story. But
that kind of general theme of people in their twenties,
especially in this generation, pushing themselves so hot to the
point of sickness and illness and disease is not as
(04:49):
uncommon as we might think. Let's roll it back, though,
because let's start with what exactly is the ambition trap?
Because we're going to get further into these symptoms in
these science a little bit later on. But how do
we see the ambition trap? Firstly, what isn't How do
we see it really showing up in our twenties.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, so the ambition trap refers to the double bind
that we experience around ambition. If you're a woman, a
person of color, a queer person, a person with a disability,
we experience something known as an ambition penalty, which means
that we're penalized for being ambitious. It's seen as taboo
for us, and so we want to take up space,
(05:31):
we want to throw our hats in the ring for things,
and often we're told to be and not to be
at the very same time, and it causes a lot
of tension. And so there's kind of two pieces to
the ambition trap. There's the systemic piece, right, kind of
operating in a system that says, hey, we don't really
want you to shine and take up space. And then
we internalize a lot of those messages and kind of
weaponize them against ourselves. So our own mindset is then saying, well,
(05:54):
who are you to take up space? And who are
you to do the thing? And so it's this tension
that we feel around growth, Right, I want to grow,
I want to take up space. I know I have
something to contribute, but when I do, I take a
hit for it. So how do I find my right
relationship with it?
Speaker 1 (06:10):
And honestly, this is something that I am trying to
manage as well, where I feel like I was always
incredibly ambitious growing up and I always wanted to do things.
And then I also was kind of shamed for that
a little bit and like told that I was too much.
And then I also like experience the sense of like, okay,
well if you think I'm too much, I'm just going
(06:31):
to push myself even further. And then I was the
one who kind of paid the cost. So it is
like a little bit of a tightrope, tightrope to yeah,
kind of walk along. I think probably what's also contributing
to this is our ideas of success is as a
society and what we think of ambition. It's this weird
(06:54):
thing where sometimes you're told it's good to be ambitious,
and then other times you're told no, you need to
slow down. And it's like, well, what do you want
from me right now? Because the life of someone who
is incredibly successful and who is busy all the time
and everything is urgent for them, that seems to be
the life that is most glamorized and most like promoted,
(07:17):
But it's probably not the one that's going to make
us always the happiest. Can you explain how this perception
is perhaps unhealthy or contributing to some of the things
that you've seen in your own work.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yes, And I want to caveat this by saying, my
book is not asking anybody to be less ambitious, right, Like,
I'm one of the most ambitious people I know. I
bet you are too. The invitation is to find that
harmonious relationship with it. But we live in a world
that tells us that success is more for more's sake
all the time, Right, That's what ambition is. More money,
more power, Always be getting the next title, always be
(07:51):
getting the next promotion, always be stretching yourself. Right. But
I think that that way of being is so dysfunctional.
I think it's partly what led to my developing too
autoimmune diseases. And there's so many examples of how problematic
that approaches out in the world, right from celebrities to
our friends. Probably because we're not supposed to be stretching
and growing all the time, that more for more's sake
(08:12):
actually costs us our health, our relationships, and even upholds
oppressive systems. I think ambition goes in cycles. I think
it's just like the seasons. It's like a perennial flower. Right,
So it's like you have this seedling of desire you
want to grow, right, I want to have this lovely podcast,
I want to have this amazing career where I'm sharing
beautiful things. So you water the inner and outer environment,
and then it grows and you have this beautiful momentary
(08:34):
peak in the sun. Right, the petals come out, it's gorgeous.
And then the seasons change and the petals fall off,
and we wind down and we go back underground, and
maybe that ground is fallow and not doing anything until
the environment is nurtured enough that we can grow again.
And I think that this is such a countercultural way
to think. Right, I'll give you a perfect example. So
I launched my book on May thirteen, and I had
(08:54):
a really nice, big pop for launch where I was
doing all these events. It was like that peak in
the sun, right. The petals were out worked on this
book for almost three years. It's like such a peak moment.
And then you know, it's summer here in the US,
and so I'm winding down. I'm going back underground because
things slow down. Nobody's booking events for the summer. There's
like a few podcasts here and there, but it's not
super busy. But people have been like.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Are you okay.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
We notice you're not as productive, we notice that you're
like taking more time off, and I'm like, I'm great.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
It's kind of the system that is always asking us
to be in perpetual motion that I think is the problem. Right.
So I think that we really need to flip this
idea of more for more's sake on its head and
really live more into the cycles of ambition. And I
think so many of us are afraid to do that.
We're afraid that if we don't, if we take our
foot off the gas, that we're going to lose something
like an opportunity or what have you. Right, that's scarcity mindset.
(09:44):
And oftentimes in the RESTful moment like this is science,
this is not me like being woo. RESTful moments right
when our brain has had a moment to relax, to
be more parasympathetic, we actually can see more creative options.
We can see more opportunities, and so it actually serves
us to allow our ambition to go in cycles.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
This is I can confirm absolutely, most certainly true anytime
we have a scarcity mindset about anything. And people may
not know a scarcity mindset is actually an economics term
and it's now been adopted by psychology and you would
know this. A scarcity mindset is basically it's what companies
(10:23):
try and create so that we value something more because
they understand that the less supply of something there is,
the more we're going to demand it. And if they
can make an item scarce, we immediately think of it
as valuable. So if you think that opportunities are scarce,
if you think that time is scarce, if you think
(10:44):
that your period for success is limited, you're going to
hold on as tightly and push yourself further and harder
and faster than ever imaginable because of that again scarcity mindset. However,
I think it's so rewarding to see stories of people
who became successful at a later age, or stories of
(11:08):
people like yourself, Amana, who I like, actually know this.
I have this incredible career because I have prioritized rest,
because I have taken time away, and when we do that,
we can actually go deeper into projects. I'm finding this
with myself right now, where I just said no to
something really really big in my career. Wow, that I
(11:30):
really want to reade you. Thanks, that's actually so nice,
Thank you. I really wanted to do this thing. I
was like, this is It felt like it was a
soul calling. It felt like really important, and I was
really excited by it. And then I just was like,
I actually just don't. I can't do this. I can't
equally say to people all the time, I'm so busy,
(11:51):
i'm so stressed, I'm so tired, and then continue to
add things onto my plate that will give me even
less time to take of myself. And it was a
hard call. But from your perspective, why do you think
it's so important to sometimes make those calls?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
I think you made the most beautiful call.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
So in the book I talk about purposeful work, and
I think purposeful work requires five things. It has to
leverage our zone of genius. It has to be values
aligned with us. It has to support the impact that
we want to have. It has to help us cultivate
a sense of contentment. And then it has to meet
our needs. And what I heard in this opportunity is
that it wouldn't meet your needs. Write your need for
(12:31):
a certain amount of time off right. So it's like
that to me, is a shiny object. It's something that
looks like the dream. It's adjacent to the dream, but
it's not the dream because the dream would allow you
to have your needs met, which means you passed the test, right,
The actual thing is coming through you honored yourself, which is.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
The Oh my gosh. I always feel like this is
completely a sidebot. But I always feel like I end
up interviewing people exactly when I need to hear exactly
what they're saying to me. And it's like a selfish
thing because I'm sitting it being like, oh, sorry, listeners,
I'm gonna just ask this expert all the questions I
have about my own.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Decisions, like, but somebody else needs to hear this because
it is so typical, Right, it's so typical. It's a
shiny object, and then not feel like we have enough
self trust or self worth to hold out for the
thing that we really want. So I actually think it's
so beautiful that you're sharing this example because you're gonna
invite others to double down on their self worth and
hold out for the thing that's truly aligned for them.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Thank you. I hope you guys feel the same way.
This is a question more for the people in their twenties,
which is mostly everyone who listens to this podcast. Why
do you think it is hustle culture in particular and
not saying no is so seductive, particularly in this decade?
And why do you think that it's important to consciously
(13:46):
learn a different way during this time?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, I think it's two things. I think it goes
back to what we're talking about with scarcity, right, the
idea that we're going to miss an opportunity that's gonna
set us up for our careers. I have been on
my book tour and I was in a room someone
and they asked me a question, and they were in
their twenties as well, and they were just like, you know,
what I've been told is that your twenties is the
time to take the risks. Right. It's when you work
(14:09):
the hardest, you have the least responsibilities potentially outside of work, like,
this is the time to maximize. And I was like, well,
to me, that's scarcity mindset, and that's systemically reinforced, right.
There's a lot of stuff that gets mirrored back, particularly
for women and other historically excluded people. It's like, well,
your value is only in your twenties or your value like.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah when you're young and beautiful and like fresh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I have clients in their fifties and sixties that it
really are facing agism, right. So that's a real thing
you have to acknowledge. But I think a tremendous amount
of pressure gets put on us to achieve the thing
in our twenties because if we don't do it, then
we're never going to do it. And I just think
that that's bs. Like I'm somebody that I was reflecting
on this today. I've built my career so sequentially, step
by step, choice by choice, right, And I've had a
(14:57):
lovely career and I feel really aligned, and I feel
really squarely in my purpose, and so I think it
is that scarcity mindset of like this is the only
decade that we can make something happen. And I think
that all of these lists, right, like the thirty under thirty,
the forty under forty, right, that really glorify and glamorize
achieving something in the shortest amount of time, Which leads
(15:17):
me to my second point of urgency culture. Right, we
live in a culture that thinks that everything is urgent
and we have no time to do a thing, and
we have to do it now. But again that hurts
our bodies, hurts our relationships, and uphold oppressive systems. I
think that we need to be moving. We need to
honor deadlines and dependencies and everything right, but we need
(15:38):
to move at the speed of trust. We need to
honor the people and processes it takes to deliver great work.
So it's scarcity and its urgency.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And this is something that again to relate this to
my own experiences is what I'm really experiencing right now.
I have a pocost called the psychology if you have twenties,
the amount of people who always ask me, are you
going to do the psycho give your thirties? What are
you going to do when you turn thirty? Like what's
what's the future for you? And I'm like I don't know.
(16:07):
And it is a real sense where it's like, if
you accomplish everything that you want in your twenties, what
else is there for you? You know what I mean?
Like you've got all the hopefully all these decades that
are coming up that you want to continue to thrive
and you want to continue to do things. There's such
a pressure to like do everything in your twenties and
(16:28):
to have it all together. But it's also like what
if you kind of peak too soon? What if there
is you know, what if there is an identity crisis
waiting for you at the other end. Basically, I feel
like that's something that's coming for me right where it's like, oh, yes,
I found the dream job and I have the dream
(16:49):
job super early. It's not all that that it's like
cracked out to be. I think like, even if you
have what you think you desire, like there's always going
to be a sense of more and you're never going
to be happy with it. So I guess what I'm
trying to say is that in our twenties we have
this whole sense that we need to have it altogether
and that we need to have it figured out. And
(17:10):
even if you do, and even if everything goes well,
if you constantly still have the ambition trapped mindset, you're
never going to feel satisfied. You're never going to feel okay.
Is something that is That's something that you've seen as well,
like and ambitious people, no matter what they have, still
desire for more and are never like happy.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah. So in the book, I define ambition as a
desire for more life, a wish to grow, a wish
to unfold. Right, Yeah, And I say that it's neutral
and natural, right because we do live in that world
and makes it right for some people and wrong for others.
And ambitious people have that desire for more life and
a desire to growth, but I a desire for growth.
But I think that's actually in every living thing on
the planet. I don't think that there are ambitious people
(17:52):
and non ambitious people. I think we're all actually ambitious.
Some of us have just rejected that label because of
the way that it's been poor trayed, But every living
thing on the planet has a desire for more life
right from our plant baby to our human babies. But
I think what you're alluding to is more of the trap, right,
because I think ambition is neutral and natural, it's for
all of us. There's nothing wrong with it. It's a
beautiful thing. But this desire to grow, no matter the cost,
(18:16):
to win, no matter the cost to hurt ourselves in
the process, to step over people in the process, that's
the thing we don't want to do right, And sometimes
there is a tendency. So in the book, I talk
about two types of ambition. There's painful ambition, which is
what I just described, right, the winning, no matter the cost,
the hurting ourselves to get there, moving at this unsustainable pace.
And then there's purposeful ambition. Purposeful ambition is when our
(18:37):
ambition is connected to our truth and it's coming from
a place of wholeness. So that's my invitation in this work, right,
is to leave the old paradigm of the painful piece
that's harmful to us and others, and step into that
more truthful version. And in painful ambition, we're always moving
the goalpost. Nothing is ever enough for us. We achieve
one mountain, we're like, where is the next one. Right,
we don't stop long enough to enjoy the view. And
(18:59):
in purposeful ambition, we know that life is a spiral staircase.
We're always just, you know, moving up the staircase, moving
up the staircase, growing and becoming and becoming more of ourselves,
which is a really beautiful thing. And in purposeful ambition
we are more concerned with contentment. So contentment from Eastern
traditions translates into English as unconditional wholeness or the knowledge
(19:19):
of enough. It's this idea that regardless of what's happening
around us, we have this internal stability that tells us
I'm enough. Right, I have this knowledge of enough, And
that is such a crucial piece right, because it doesn't
mean that I don't want to continue to grow, but
it means that while I grow, I have this unconditional
wholeness on the inside, and I know that everything that
I've already done is enough, and who I am is enough.
(19:42):
Did that answer your question?
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Oh my god, I absolutely did. And I want to
go further into this purposeful ambition concept. Is there? Do
you have some kind of checklist, a series of questions?
How can we tell when something is purposeful? Ambition versus
painful ambition. What are the key signs or distinctions.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So they each have a couple of signatures. So painful
ambition looks like moving at an unsustainable pace, a strong
desire to win, no matter the cost, and the key
phrase there is no matter the cost, because there's nothing
wrong with winning. We all love to do it right.
But it's like when we're hurt ourselves or hurt others
to get to the goal. It looks like instrumentalizing our
minds and bodies to get to the goal.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
So like the eighty hour work weeks, the no sleeping,
the wearing, the stress is a badge of honor, all
of those things. It looks like black and white either
or thinking. And then purposeful there's there's more signatures in
the book. Those are just a couple, yeah, And then
purposeful ambition is growth mindset thinking right, expansive thinking. It
is being in a harmonious relationship with our minds and
(20:46):
bodies right like we always want to grow, We want
to learn some things, but I'm not hurting myself to
get there. It is honoring the pace and moving at
that speed of trust that it takes to do good work.
It is being more collaborative versus hyper in a vidualistic
and needing to shine and win as an individual.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
I really like the thing that you said around it
being collaborative and collective. Winning, like you said, is great.
Every human wants to do it. If you don't have
anyone to celebrate it with, because you haven't seen your
friends in months, because you haven't focused on building positive
relationships with your colleagues, because you stopped calling your mum,
(21:26):
it's kind of going to be pretty lonely. It's going
to be so lonely.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
And we know that so much of the research says
that longevity and health are connected to community and having
a really supportive community.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Actually, you're totally right. One of the longest longer funeral
studies ever done at Harvard University, which I'm sure you know,
looked at a number of participants for like seventy plus
years and they were like, the key factor in health
and longevity was the number of positive and healthy relationships
(22:00):
that someone has with others. We are going to take
a short break, but when we return, I want to
talk more about how competition harms us, the ambition penalties,
self sabotage, and how to truly work on your own
sense of self in order to approach ambition in a
more healthy way. Stay with us, Okay, we are back
(22:28):
talking about the ambition trap. I want to focus in
on one part of this in particular, which is how
competition harms us. We kind of talked about it in
relation to obviously harming our personal relationships and perhaps with
our colleagues or our friends. Can you go deeper into
talking about how that specifically applies to those of us
(22:51):
in our twenties. Maybe yes.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
I think competition again goes back to scarcity mindset. I
feel like that's the theme of today.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
We're just like scarcity mindset, guys, the one where do
you need.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
To know exactly? And the thing about scarcity mindset, right
is like it's a systemic and economic problem, but it
has those two pieces. It has the mindset piece and
the fact that it's systemically reinforced. Right. So oftentimes what
we see in the workplace is like, oh, there's space
for only one woman or one person in their twenties,
or you know, one person of color, and we're like,
oh my god, well I've got to beat out everybody
(23:21):
that looks like me to get this thing, right, It
causes infighting in those groups, and so I think that, yes,
we absolutely need to look at our own mindset, like
where do I feel like I have to fight out
this other person to win? Right? There's stuff on our
side of the street there, but also there's stuff that
needs to shift inside of organizations so that it doesn't
give us that impulse. Right. I always say to my
(23:42):
clients too, when we're captivated by purpose, we can't be
consumed by competition. And I think this is so important,
especially for work like you like yours. In mind. Right,
it's so easy to look on social media and be like, oh, well,
this person's doing this and I should be doing this, right,
But when we're so captivated and devoted to our purpose,
we're not looking in the other lane. We're like, I
(24:05):
see what I'm here to do, and it is so beautiful,
and I'm so devoted to that thing. And that's what
gets me out of bed every day. I'm actual getting
emotional saying this. You don't have time or care to
look around because you're so consumed with your contribution in
a beautiful way.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
And you know what, I've experienced that recently. Actually, now
that you've said it where when I first was, you know,
growing the psychology of your twenties, and not even intentionally,
people were just finding.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
It, which is a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
It was great. It was Yeah, I was so lucky,
but I was so insecure because I didn't expect it.
I never had this experience before, and I was like,
I have to be doing better. I have to be
making the most original and the best kind of episodes.
I have to be putting everything into this. And as
(24:53):
it is with anything that's entertainment, you know, there are charts,
and there are ratings, and there are all these things.
And I really wish that wasn't part of this medium,
and I wish that it was just more organic, but
it is, and it would really kind of took some
of the joy out of it. For me. Was competition.
Now I'm in this phase and in this place where
I'm just so delighted by what I'm doing. And I
(25:15):
felt it really in the last maybe six months where
I don't really check download numbers, I don't really check
what I don't really pay attention, and I think it's
because I've somehow become a lot more purposeful and intentional
in that there is no longer. I need to prove
(25:36):
that I'm capable of doing this, and I'm capable of
being good at this. Now I can just enjoy it.
So I like that you talked about that, and also
like the role of joy. What do you think the
role of joy is an ambition as well?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, And I just want to just put a bowl
on that last thing that you said, because I think
it's so beautiful and important because we do live in
a world that is upheld by metrics. Right, It's like
same for me, it's like my book sales matter, right.
But what I'm hearing from you and what's important for
me is that's not the come from right, That's not
the driver for us. The driver for us is being
devoted to amazing work and then oftentimes the byproduct of
(26:12):
that is the numbers. Right. But it's like when we
set out to like hit the chart and hit the goal,
and like it's so much control and that I think
eclipses joy for sure. And I want to answer your
joy question, but this there's a segue here.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
I need it tell me.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
So, like what I was just talking about with control, right,
what that says to me is core wound. So in
the book when I talk about painful ambition, painful ambition
is driven by core wounds. So in the book, I
leverage the work of Lis Borbo, who's a Canadian psychologist,
and she talks about how there's five core wounds rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal,
and injustice. And as a result of each of the wounds,
(26:49):
we were a corresponding mask. So if you have a
rejection wound, the maskuwer's avoidance. If you have a betrayal wound,
the maskuwer is control. That's one of mine. And so
sometimes we can start to see where our wound or
mask is getting in the way of actually feeling joy
and contentment in the context of our work. Right, So
that example you gave is so perfect and classic of
(27:11):
core wound driving the ambition, and that's painful ambition. And
then where you are now is like beautiful, purposeful ambition,
like releasing the mask.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
And I think the way I had to do that
was obviously you would have done this as well, like
you have to do a lot of self work. You
also just have to get back to being like I
have a choice here. I could have all the success
and all the good things, and I can hate myself
(27:42):
for it every single day and feel like my life
is burning around me. And then I am constantly in
a state of urgency and an in a state of pursuit.
Or I can have all of this and just accept
that sometimes I am just lucky and sometimes this stuff
people do just really resonate with you. And sometimes you've
(28:03):
done all the hard work and that like that investment
has paid off. You don't have to continue to prove yourself.
I'm sure you find this as well, like, how does
ambition come down to the need to prove ourselves? Have
you found a link between those two things as well?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yes, that's classic painful ambition, right, proving ourselves. And it
goes back to the core wounds. So you know, one
of my core wounds is rejection and the mask I
wear is avoidance. Right, So because I felt rejected as
a child, I will avoid as an adult, throwing my
hat in the ring because I'm so worried they'll be
rejected again. And because I have this rejection wound and
(28:39):
don't feel this sense of acceptance, I feel this impulse
to prove myself over and over again. And it looks
very similar for all the other core wounds as well,
and so we are all born worthy, right, we were
born innately worthy. Would anybody look at a brand new
baby and be like, but not worthy? Right? No, you
look at a baby and you're like, oh my god,
it's so perfect. But all this stuff gets layer it
(29:00):
on to us from our family systems, from culture, et cetera.
We adopt it as our own, and we think that
we're not enough and that we have to prove that
we are valuable. You're born valuable, and that's the message
that each of us needs to come home to. And
when we realize that our desire for growth isn't coming
from that place to prove ourselves, it's coming from this
is actually just a natural unfolding of my truth.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
And I really liked it. You said that, like it.
You are completely worthy, whether you are successful or not,
like whether you choose to pursue big, great grand things
or you choose to just live a really a really
amazing and slow and simple life. Like, Yes, there is
(29:44):
not one life path that is more valuable than another.
So unless you are not hurting other people or hurting yourself,
as long as you have happiness and kindness and joy,
you could be like a New York Times bestseller. You
could be someone who just has a real a garden
and talks to three people, and both of those lives
are like inherently valuable. I think it also comes down
(30:06):
to this weird hierarchy we have in our society that like,
if you have money, and if you have success, and
if you have a public figure, a public facing like
kind of persona, well you must be happier than anyone else.
And if you are happier, then obviously, like your life
is better. But if other people perceive you as being
(30:28):
more successful and happier, then that even that adds to
that even more. Some of the most successful people you
meet are actually deeply unhappy. Wow, yeah, most people. Yeah,
And like some of the richest people in the world,
it's like they don't have anyone they can trust, Like
they don't like themselves, the public doesn't like them, Like
(30:48):
they're not they don't seem like very good people. So
what is it about this that we think is like
the secret to life?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yes, I think I think about this all the time.
I don't think it's a weird philosophical question at all.
We operate in a capitalist system, right, and capitalism says
the more money, the better, right, But that's the essence
of the ambition trap, because we know that we can
get all of the money, all of the accolades, like
all of the trophies, all of the followers, and if
you don't do the work on the inside, you are
(31:17):
still going to be miserable, right, because the happiness doesn't
live outside of us, The contement doesn't live outside of us,
the contentments on the inside. And even in the book,
I actually was really careful not to over use the
language of happiness because even that, I think can become
a little troubling, because happiness is an emotion and is
therefore transient. We're not supposed to be happy all the time.
We're actually the healthiest people on the planet are the
(31:37):
ones that make space for emo diversity, which is all
emotions coming and going. And so even this idea of
clinging to happiness and that's the north star, is slightly
troubling because we're supposed to feel everything. We're supposed to feel, sadness, grief, happiness, joy, disappointment,
all of it. Not grip onto it, but let it
come and go in the way that it's supposed to,
which is why I'm an advocate for contentment, and so
(32:00):
I don't think any of these people are happy, nor
do I think that they're contented, because I think that
they're seeking the thing outside of themselves when the work
is on the inside.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
No. Absolutely, And I can say is someone I've fallen
into that many many a time and I read the book. Yeah, no,
literally exactly. And it's also this sense of like I
was saying this to someone the other day as well.
The times as well that I've been posting on social
media the most that I've portrayed my life as being
(32:31):
the most incredible have also been the times that I've
been happy, like been the least content, not the least happy,
also not very happy, but the least content because I
felt like the external validation would fill some kind of
whole or would feel some kind of make us feel valuable.
And I think this is what this is all coming
(32:51):
back to, right. We have an unhealthy relationship with ambition
because we think that the success that ambition will bring,
or payful ambition will bring, is going to fill a
hole in our life that nothing else can fill, and
it's going to fill some kind of need that can
never be fulfilled by anything other than money, recognition, success,
(33:14):
And if you continue to believe that, like you said,
you spoke of your story of becoming ill from burnout,
your self sabotage, you don't have good relationships. So my
question for you is, how do we begin to redefine this?
How do we begin to see ourselves as valuable and
(33:36):
see how ambition is sustainable without it hurting us?
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, I think this is the million dollar question, and
I really believe it starts with the work on the
core wounds. So literally, in the introduction and in chapter one,
I get straight into this because I'm like, I don't
want to waste any time, like this is this is
what I love that yes, please, And so I think
that we need to really understand which wounds are and
how they're showing up in our relationship to ambition and
success and work and even friendships, Like it shows up
(34:05):
in relationships all the time. I get this question so much,
so it's everywhere. And if we don't do that work
on the core wounds, we are going to be constantly
seeking the thing outside of ourselves because we don't feel
worthy on the inside. So we need to bring as
much of a salve to that wound as we possibly can.
Otherwise we're in a perpetual chase outside of ourselves. So
that I think is some of the most fundamental work.
(34:28):
And you know, it's interesting because I don't know that
the wound is ever like fully healed, right, I think
it's always like you know, yeah, getting a little scab,
a little scar, like getting better, right, building the collagen
around it. I'm always metaphor, but you know, but it's
but I think every next level of our careers and
our becoming, we have a different way of dealing with it, right.
It's like you're in a very public career. I'm in
(34:50):
a public career, and because I've done work on those
core wounds, because I've worked on my nervous system, you know,
there's a lot of positivity, but there's also some negativity
that comes with it. But I'm equipped to hold it
now and it doesn't impact my value because I've done
at work. Right. It's like, I think it'd be so
hard to be in a career like minor yours if
we were outsourcing our value because every comment are the worst.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yeah. Yeah, So literally I was talking to another friend
of mine about this the other day, and it happens
not just in this industry, in any industry, but like
for her, I was talking about how like she would
get hate comments and it just ruins her life, Like
her day is ruined. She cannot do anything else, and
that person hasn't thought about it at all. It's the
(35:34):
same with like you're in an office job and like
there's a workplace bully. They don't they don't care, and
it's gonna completely destroy you. I think that it's again
this thing. You cannot hinge your value on a relationship,
on someone else's perception, on material success, all of those
things are completely fallible. When you have an internal sense
of I am worthy and I do great things, and
(35:57):
I am capable, and I trust myself, you are like unsure, shakeable,
like nothing anyone says is ever going to harm you,
even if it's nasty and cruel.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, exactly. I think that's so important. Hurt people hurt people, right,
so they're coming from a core wound, and that's so
important to see and if you can then still feel
whole in that right and maybe it's even a learning
for us in it, right. I think that's always a
beautiful thing too. But if it doesn't take us down,
Like there's the magic.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
And also it stops that wound from becoming contagious, like
that person who has tried to bring you down or
whatever it is like hurt people, hurt people. As you said,
someone has hurt them you. If you take it on
and you let that injure you, you will continue to
do that to someone else. It's why sometimes like our
biggest haters are the ones that are most insecure about
(36:45):
themselves because right, no, no, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
The part about it being contagious is so true. Right,
if we continue to live in our wounds, then we're
just inviting others to do the same. And like so
then it's such an act of service for us to
do the work on hours. It's so beautifully said.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
And especially like what you were talking about before in
terms of like ambition is also about community and also
about collaboration. It's like it's all coming together fixing your
whole wounds, Like that is the greatest gift you can give,
not just to like your children, not to your family members,
but to anyone who comes into contact with you. All
(37:22):
you allow yourself to be this example of what ambition
can look like and what a healthy relationship with self
can look like such as other people jump on the
bandwagon and like, I'm touper capable of doing that as well.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
That's where the magic is. Literally, that's what people are like, well,
how do we change the world with this?
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Right?
Speaker 2 (37:42):
And like what starts with us? Because the minute that
we do that work, we show up differently and we're
in a chance with everybody around us. Right, so if
I go left instead of going right, now they're accommodating
me and they're different too, and then there's this beautiful
ripple effect out in the world. And so it starts
with us, but it can very easily grow from.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
The oh absolutely one. Like people don't realize, you know,
the idea of obviously like six degrees of separation, Like
every single person in this in this world is separated
by maximum six degrees. It's it's wild, Like when you
really start doing it, Me and my friends do this.
Sometimes we're like this random person in this random country
(38:21):
and it's like, you can it's always six degrees. So
imagine how quick that positivity can spread, And imagine how
quick that new vision of ambition can spread if we
just really start to live it. I do have a
follow up question though, and I'm sure it's one that
a lot of people are asking themselves. How can we
deliberately slow down without feeling like we're falling behind, especially
(38:43):
in our twenties, because I feel like this is something
that people in this decade struggle with, especially.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yes, this is such a good one. And so I
think there's two things. First, it is working in our
zone of genius. So in the book I talk about
how so zone of genius a term that was coined
by Gay Hendrix in his book The Big Leap. And
in the book, I talk about how we operate in
three zones. So we have our genus or our exceptional zone,
our excellent zone, in our zone the space that 'ra
average at. And so when we know what our zone
(39:13):
of genius is or what our exceptional traits are, we
have to use so much less energy and time because
it's our magic. Right, it's just kind of innate. You
don't have to push or force, Right, I can see
that this is part of your genius, what you're doing
right now, and so you can show up in this
thing in less like you don't need to spend eight
hours a day in this right. It's like it's so
(39:34):
fine tuned and potent that you don't need to spend
all day every day doing it. So I think that
shift from our excellent zone or our zone, which is
where most of us start our careers, because we're kind
of honing. And if you can spend even just starting
by ten minutes a day in your zone of genius
and then building that over time, you don't have to
worry about slowing down because the contribution over in your
(39:55):
genius is going to be so potent it makes up
for everything. And then the other piece is letting your
nervous system feel safe doing less, because we live in
a world that is moving so fast, and knowledge changes
so quickly, and everybody's moving at a million miles a minute,
and so it feels unsafe for most of our nervous systems.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
To go slow.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Like I'm in this season right now, like I mentioned before,
where it's a little slower. It's the summer, And just
because I came off a season that was so busy,
I noticed that my nervous system at first was like,
is this safe. We're used to running a million miles
a minute, especially for the last year. Is it okay?
And I had to really do the work to let
my body feel safe at this slower pace, but reminding
myself right of like I don't need to do everything.
(40:37):
I need to do the thing that I am best
and most potent at. And I think that's true for anybody,
whatever stage of their career, but especially in our twenties.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yeah, and especially as you're experimenting. Right, it's okay to
be like, I'm actually not that good at this and
I don't have anything to prove yes by proving that
I can be the best. Like I had this when
I was in UNI and I was studying economics, and
I was like, I'm never going to be a top
student in this subject. It's just not going to happen. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
I also studied economics and also knew that I was
not going to be a top student in the topic.
I was like, yeah, good bye with a bee, all right.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah. Yeah. That's when I got to micro two. I
was out. I was like, Microeconomics two is where I
was like, this is not my future, Like this is
not who I'm going to be.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Oh my god, say our class average in Microeconomics two
was a thirty six out of one hundred. That was
a class average, Like we were all failing.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Oh my god. No, See I did it during COVID,
and I think that they were nicer to us because
like I was. It was like my last year was
the first year of COVID, and then I also did
like Macro two. It was just a it was just
a lot. But you know, I remember being like, oh
my god, I've always put so much in my grades
and I've always tied so much to like my output,
(41:48):
and if I'm not good at this, like an employer
isn't going to want to hire me for this. For
this one, I have to be amazing and everything. Otherwise
I'm not a well rounded individual. And I blah blah
blah blah blah. And then I was like wait a second,
Like I can focus more on these psychology subjects and
my great point average will say the same because I'm
doing it. Was just like this. It's such a basic moment,
(42:09):
but just this moment of being like, I'm not going
to give up, but I'm just going to spend more
time in my zone of genius and spend more time
on the thing that I'm like good at. Because we
all do have natural talents, we all have something that
we probably multiple things that we are going to be
it's going to be easy for us, easier for us
to be great at. Yeah, and so maybe part of
(42:32):
like being in your twenties is not just finding out
what you enjoy, but also finding out what that is
for you. And also normally the enjoyment comes with it, right,
because if you're naturally good at something, it's easier to
get into a flow state, it's easier to feel like purposeful.
So honestly, it's incredibly powerful, right.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
And the one thing I want to say too, is
because I feel like my twenties was a process of
checking off everything that I was not good at to
get to what I was good at. And I think
sometimes that process can feel like sticky and uncomfortable, but
that's the journey, right of like just being like, oh
not that thing, not that thing that, oh this thing right. Yeah,
So if you're in a process where it's like you
feel like you've done all the things that you're not
good at, keep going because it means that you're closer
(43:11):
to the thing that you are good at.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Oh so so true, like when you get there the flows,
like you'll know. People always like, how will I know?
Speaker 2 (43:21):
It's undeniable?
Speaker 1 (43:22):
It's undeniable, like you will know because it will just
feel like you could. You could live your entire life
that in the time that you spend doing these activities.
And here's the thing. It doesn't always have to do
have to be bad about work exactly.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
And I think that we do feel so much pressure
to monetize everything that we do. And exactly what you said,
it's like, if it feels sacred to keep it as
your hobby, keep it as your hobby. Also, if you
don't want to do purposeful work in your day job
because you want to keep that for yourself, do that right.
There's so much to be said for the good enough job,
and so purpose doesn't have to be our job. We
don't have to have the purposeful job. We don't have
(43:58):
to turn everything into our I and that's so important
to hear because that's not how I started.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
I always say to people, if you want to make
a career out of your hobby, you most certainly have
to love it two hundred percent, because the moment you
start making money from something, you're gonna love it a
whole lot less. You want to make sure and you're
still loving it like as much as you can I
have a friend who's like this, and she's like, I
don't really care what my job is. I my life
exists outside of my job. My life exists in my
(44:25):
relationships and in my day to day I just make
I'm just choosing the job that I think I can
make the most money from the least amount of effort
from so I can go and have fun. And I
was like, great, And that woman, I love her. She
uses her sickly if she uses her personal leave like
she does not give an f And I'm like, that
is that is an aligned life, that is full ambition
right exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
She is living a beautifully aligned life. Good for her.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
I've got one final question for you, and it has
nothing to do with ambition. Actually, it's the question we
ask every single guest at the end of the episode.
What is one piece of advice that you have for
people in their twenty that has nothing to do with
what we spoke about today.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
I would say, like it is related tangentially, but like
have as much fun as possible. I think that connected
to what we were saying. We feel all of this
pressure to do all of these things and achieve all
of these things in our twenties. But like, what about
the fun? Right, It's like your joints will never be
as good as they are in their twenties, probably, right, So, like,
you know, do the thing that's outside, like go on
(45:24):
vacation with your friends, like do the thing that brings
you the most joy. Like I think that we just
put our heads down and work too hard and we
miss the fun and then we look back and we're
so nostalgic, and it's like I had it so good.
Why didn't I take advantage? And so think as much
as you can, just really have fun.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Oh, I love that advice. That's actually good. I needed
to hear this today. I was going to sit in
and I was going to sit in my hotel room
and work all day, and I think, I'm gonna go
do go for a run, I'm very exploring, I'm going
to play.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
I love that. Well, I'm gonna thank you so much
for coming on the podcast. This felt like a very
soulfully aligned casation and what I really needed to hear.
Where can everyone find your book? Because I think it's
essential reading.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Thank you so much for having me. This is one
of my most fun conversations, and I love how you
related everything to what you're going through, what your listeners
are going through. It just makes it so much more
fun to participate in. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
And you can find the book everywhere books are sold,
So whether that's your favorite indie bookstore, they can order
it for you or a national retailer. It is available everywhere.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
And it is also has a beautiful cover. I will
say I have a copy not with me, but at
my house and I had someone over the other day
who picked it up and now like, it's a beautiful
book cover. Oh, thank you yeah, and it's a good yeah.
I was like, it's a good book as well. I
think she took it home with her. But I'll make
sure that that is super accessible for you guys to find.
(46:46):
I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope it's re
framed something for you in terms of ambition or success,
especially in our twenty Sometimes it is just the reminder
that we need to hear. Make sure that you are
following me on Instagram at that Psychology podcast, and that
you're following us here on Spotify, Apple, iHeart wherever you
are listening to help the show grow and reach new people,
(47:07):
and so you know when new episodes are coming out,
but until next time, stay safe, be kind, maybe be
a little bit less ambitious today, be gentle with yourself,
and we will talk very soon.
Hello everybody, I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the
Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through
the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and
what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back
(00:26):
to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. I am
so excited to have you here back for another episode.
Being an ambitious person is so obviously deeply applauded by
our society. We love, we are obsessed with. We want
to see success stories of people who have started businesses,
(00:46):
who are self made, who are entrepreneurs, authors, leaders, creators, founders,
especially when they're young. But on the other side of
ambition is this very real burnout and this very real
struggle with how much is enough? How will I know
when I'm happy? How can I balance working hard and
(01:10):
having a life, especially in our twenties, when we don't
want to miss out on experiences, but we also don't
want to miss out on our future or the opportunities
that are presented to us today. I invited somebody on
the podcast who knows more about this balancing act than
most people this conversation. It honestly meant a lot to me,
(01:32):
it's really a real it's a deep depiction of things
that I'm currently working through. As you will probably hear,
I am very excited by this episode. We talk about perfectionism, ambition, failure, rejection,
joy and how to go after what you want deeply
and passionately whilst also still allowing yourself to have a
(01:55):
life without further ado. I want to introduce our lovely, beautiful,
wonderful guests to the show. Amana. Thank you so much
for joining us.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Thank you so much for having me. Gemma, I am
so excited.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Can you introduce like I could introduce you if you
wanted me to, but I feel like you could say
it better tell the listeners what you're about, who you
are about this book that you've written as well.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Thank you so much so. I'm Anna Altai. I'm an
executive coach and author and speaker, and I work with
people in moments of great change around their careers and everybody,
from folks that are in their twenties to people that
are in their sixties, and the commonality is it's people
that really want to finally do work that is true
to them and their soul and their calling. Because so
(02:39):
many of us are just indoctrinated to work in the
shoulds and do what we think our parents wanted and
take the linear career path that was laid out for us.
And so you know, this work I think of as
a homecoming and a way to do it in a
way that is really true to who we are. And
I just wrote a book. I spent two and a
half years writing this book called The Ambition Track app
(03:00):
And I wanted to write a book about ambition because
I'm a highly ambitious person and so are my clients.
And it was just really expensive for me. What I
noticed was that I had all these desires to grow,
but it cost me a lot. It actually cost me
my health. And I tell this story in the book
where I was twenty eight years old. I was six
years into my career and I had been working so
(03:20):
hard the eighty hour weeks and just the first one
in the last one out and I ended up burning
out and developing two autoimmune diseases. But it happened in
this really dramatic fashion where I got a call from
my doctor on a Friday as I was going to work,
and she said, if you don't go to the hospital
now instead of going to work, you'll be days away
from multiple organ failure. And it's like what twenty eight
(03:43):
year old gets that phone call? Right, So, like, very
early in my career, I realized my relationship to success
and growth was kind of killing me, and so I
had to learn another way very quickly, and so I
went on my eat, pray, lovey is what I call it,
and I studied all these things from coaching to mindfulness
to semantics, and then eventually just felt so much better
using these these tools of my own life that I
(04:05):
decided that I wanted to put it all together and
teach others. And so I'm a coach and I take
what I call a mind, body, and career approach to coaching,
so that we're really looking at all the different pieces
and parts of us. And so in the book The
Ambition Trap, I'm exploring all of that how we can
have a healthy, more harmonious relationship with ambition and growth
without it hurting us or others.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And that's just absolutely wild for you to say that
you are twenty eight years old experiencing well about to
experience multiple organ failure, and that's a shocking story. But
that kind of general theme of people in their twenties,
especially in this generation, pushing themselves so hot to the
point of sickness and illness and disease is not as
(04:49):
uncommon as we might think. Let's roll it back, though,
because let's start with what exactly is the ambition trap?
Because we're going to get further into these symptoms in
these science a little bit later on. But how do
we see the ambition trap? Firstly, what isn't How do
we see it really showing up in our twenties.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, so the ambition trap refers to the double bind
that we experience around ambition. If you're a woman, a
person of color, a queer person, a person with a disability,
we experience something known as an ambition penalty, which means
that we're penalized for being ambitious. It's seen as taboo
for us, and so we want to take up space,
(05:31):
we want to throw our hats in the ring for things,
and often we're told to be and not to be
at the very same time, and it causes a lot
of tension. And so there's kind of two pieces to
the ambition trap. There's the systemic piece, right, kind of
operating in a system that says, hey, we don't really
want you to shine and take up space. And then
we internalize a lot of those messages and kind of
weaponize them against ourselves. So our own mindset is then saying, well,
(05:54):
who are you to take up space? And who are
you to do the thing? And so it's this tension
that we feel around growth, Right, I want to grow,
I want to take up space. I know I have
something to contribute, but when I do, I take a
hit for it. So how do I find my right
relationship with it?
Speaker 1 (06:10):
And honestly, this is something that I am trying to
manage as well, where I feel like I was always
incredibly ambitious growing up and I always wanted to do things.
And then I also was kind of shamed for that
a little bit and like told that I was too much.
And then I also like experience the sense of like, okay,
well if you think I'm too much, I'm just going
(06:31):
to push myself even further. And then I was the
one who kind of paid the cost. So it is
like a little bit of a tightrope, tightrope to yeah,
kind of walk along. I think probably what's also contributing
to this is our ideas of success is as a
society and what we think of ambition. It's this weird
(06:54):
thing where sometimes you're told it's good to be ambitious,
and then other times you're told no, you need to
slow down. And it's like, well, what do you want
from me right now? Because the life of someone who
is incredibly successful and who is busy all the time
and everything is urgent for them, that seems to be
the life that is most glamorized and most like promoted,
(07:17):
But it's probably not the one that's going to make
us always the happiest. Can you explain how this perception
is perhaps unhealthy or contributing to some of the things
that you've seen in your own work.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yes, And I want to caveat this by saying, my
book is not asking anybody to be less ambitious, right, Like,
I'm one of the most ambitious people I know. I
bet you are too. The invitation is to find that
harmonious relationship with it. But we live in a world
that tells us that success is more for more's sake
all the time, Right, That's what ambition is. More money,
more power, Always be getting the next title, always be
(07:51):
getting the next promotion, always be stretching yourself. Right. But
I think that that way of being is so dysfunctional.
I think it's partly what led to my developing too
autoimmune diseases. And there's so many examples of how problematic
that approaches out in the world, right from celebrities to
our friends. Probably because we're not supposed to be stretching
and growing all the time, that more for more's sake
(08:12):
actually costs us our health, our relationships, and even upholds
oppressive systems. I think ambition goes in cycles. I think
it's just like the seasons. It's like a perennial flower. Right,
So it's like you have this seedling of desire you
want to grow, right, I want to have this lovely podcast,
I want to have this amazing career where I'm sharing
beautiful things. So you water the inner and outer environment,
and then it grows and you have this beautiful momentary
(08:34):
peak in the sun. Right, the petals come out, it's gorgeous.
And then the seasons change and the petals fall off,
and we wind down and we go back underground, and
maybe that ground is fallow and not doing anything until
the environment is nurtured enough that we can grow again.
And I think that this is such a countercultural way
to think. Right, I'll give you a perfect example. So
I launched my book on May thirteen, and I had
(08:54):
a really nice, big pop for launch where I was
doing all these events. It was like that peak in
the sun, right. The petals were out worked on this
book for almost three years. It's like such a peak moment.
And then you know, it's summer here in the US,
and so I'm winding down. I'm going back underground because
things slow down. Nobody's booking events for the summer. There's
like a few podcasts here and there, but it's not
super busy. But people have been like.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Are you okay.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
We notice you're not as productive, we notice that you're
like taking more time off, and I'm like, I'm great.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
It's kind of the system that is always asking us
to be in perpetual motion that I think is the problem. Right.
So I think that we really need to flip this
idea of more for more's sake on its head and
really live more into the cycles of ambition. And I
think so many of us are afraid to do that.
We're afraid that if we don't, if we take our
foot off the gas, that we're going to lose something
like an opportunity or what have you. Right, that's scarcity mindset.
(09:44):
And oftentimes in the RESTful moment like this is science,
this is not me like being woo. RESTful moments right
when our brain has had a moment to relax, to
be more parasympathetic, we actually can see more creative options.
We can see more opportunities, and so it actually serves
us to allow our ambition to go in cycles.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
This is I can confirm absolutely, most certainly true anytime
we have a scarcity mindset about anything. And people may
not know a scarcity mindset is actually an economics term
and it's now been adopted by psychology and you would
know this. A scarcity mindset is basically it's what companies
(10:23):
try and create so that we value something more because
they understand that the less supply of something there is,
the more we're going to demand it. And if they
can make an item scarce, we immediately think of it
as valuable. So if you think that opportunities are scarce,
if you think that time is scarce, if you think
(10:44):
that your period for success is limited, you're going to
hold on as tightly and push yourself further and harder
and faster than ever imaginable because of that again scarcity mindset. However,
I think it's so rewarding to see stories of people
who became successful at a later age, or stories of
(11:08):
people like yourself, Amana, who I like, actually know this.
I have this incredible career because I have prioritized rest,
because I have taken time away, and when we do that,
we can actually go deeper into projects. I'm finding this
with myself right now, where I just said no to
something really really big in my career. Wow, that I
(11:30):
really want to reade you. Thanks, that's actually so nice,
Thank you. I really wanted to do this thing. I
was like, this is It felt like it was a
soul calling. It felt like really important, and I was
really excited by it. And then I just was like,
I actually just don't. I can't do this. I can't
equally say to people all the time, I'm so busy,
(11:51):
i'm so stressed, I'm so tired, and then continue to
add things onto my plate that will give me even
less time to take of myself. And it was a
hard call. But from your perspective, why do you think
it's so important to sometimes make those calls?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
I think you made the most beautiful call.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
So in the book I talk about purposeful work, and
I think purposeful work requires five things. It has to
leverage our zone of genius. It has to be values
aligned with us. It has to support the impact that
we want to have. It has to help us cultivate
a sense of contentment. And then it has to meet
our needs. And what I heard in this opportunity is
that it wouldn't meet your needs. Write your need for
(12:31):
a certain amount of time off right. So it's like
that to me, is a shiny object. It's something that
looks like the dream. It's adjacent to the dream, but
it's not the dream because the dream would allow you
to have your needs met, which means you passed the test, right,
The actual thing is coming through you honored yourself, which is.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
The Oh my gosh. I always feel like this is
completely a sidebot. But I always feel like I end
up interviewing people exactly when I need to hear exactly
what they're saying to me. And it's like a selfish
thing because I'm sitting it being like, oh, sorry, listeners,
I'm gonna just ask this expert all the questions I
have about my own.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Decisions, like, but somebody else needs to hear this because
it is so typical, Right, it's so typical. It's a
shiny object, and then not feel like we have enough
self trust or self worth to hold out for the
thing that we really want. So I actually think it's
so beautiful that you're sharing this example because you're gonna
invite others to double down on their self worth and
hold out for the thing that's truly aligned for them.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Thank you. I hope you guys feel the same way.
This is a question more for the people in their twenties,
which is mostly everyone who listens to this podcast. Why
do you think it is hustle culture in particular and
not saying no is so seductive, particularly in this decade?
And why do you think that it's important to consciously
(13:46):
learn a different way during this time?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, I think it's two things. I think it goes
back to what we're talking about with scarcity, right, the
idea that we're going to miss an opportunity that's gonna
set us up for our careers. I have been on
my book tour and I was in a room someone
and they asked me a question, and they were in
their twenties as well, and they were just like, you know,
what I've been told is that your twenties is the
time to take the risks. Right. It's when you work
(14:09):
the hardest, you have the least responsibilities potentially outside of work, like,
this is the time to maximize. And I was like, well,
to me, that's scarcity mindset, and that's systemically reinforced, right.
There's a lot of stuff that gets mirrored back, particularly
for women and other historically excluded people. It's like, well,
your value is only in your twenties or your value like.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah when you're young and beautiful and like fresh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I have clients in their fifties and sixties that it
really are facing agism, right. So that's a real thing
you have to acknowledge. But I think a tremendous amount
of pressure gets put on us to achieve the thing
in our twenties because if we don't do it, then
we're never going to do it. And I just think
that that's bs. Like I'm somebody that I was reflecting
on this today. I've built my career so sequentially, step
by step, choice by choice, right, And I've had a
(14:57):
lovely career and I feel really aligned, and I feel
really squarely in my purpose, and so I think it
is that scarcity mindset of like this is the only
decade that we can make something happen. And I think
that all of these lists, right, like the thirty under thirty,
the forty under forty, right, that really glorify and glamorize
achieving something in the shortest amount of time, Which leads
(15:17):
me to my second point of urgency culture. Right, we
live in a culture that thinks that everything is urgent
and we have no time to do a thing, and
we have to do it now. But again that hurts
our bodies, hurts our relationships, and uphold oppressive systems. I
think that we need to be moving. We need to
honor deadlines and dependencies and everything right, but we need
(15:38):
to move at the speed of trust. We need to
honor the people and processes it takes to deliver great work.
So it's scarcity and its urgency.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And this is something that again to relate this to
my own experiences is what I'm really experiencing right now.
I have a pocost called the psychology if you have twenties,
the amount of people who always ask me, are you
going to do the psycho give your thirties? What are
you going to do when you turn thirty? Like what's
what's the future for you? And I'm like I don't know.
(16:07):
And it is a real sense where it's like, if
you accomplish everything that you want in your twenties, what
else is there for you? You know what I mean?
Like you've got all the hopefully all these decades that
are coming up that you want to continue to thrive
and you want to continue to do things. There's such
a pressure to like do everything in your twenties and
(16:28):
to have it all together. But it's also like what
if you kind of peak too soon? What if there
is you know, what if there is an identity crisis
waiting for you at the other end. Basically, I feel
like that's something that's coming for me right where it's like, oh, yes,
I found the dream job and I have the dream
(16:49):
job super early. It's not all that that it's like
cracked out to be. I think like, even if you
have what you think you desire, like there's always going
to be a sense of more and you're never going
to be happy with it. So I guess what I'm
trying to say is that in our twenties we have
this whole sense that we need to have it altogether
and that we need to have it figured out. And
(17:10):
even if you do, and even if everything goes well,
if you constantly still have the ambition trapped mindset, you're
never going to feel satisfied. You're never going to feel okay.
Is something that is That's something that you've seen as well,
like and ambitious people, no matter what they have, still
desire for more and are never like happy.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah. So in the book, I define ambition as a
desire for more life, a wish to grow, a wish
to unfold. Right, Yeah, And I say that it's neutral
and natural, right because we do live in that world
and makes it right for some people and wrong for others.
And ambitious people have that desire for more life and
a desire to growth, but I a desire for growth.
But I think that's actually in every living thing on
the planet. I don't think that there are ambitious people
(17:52):
and non ambitious people. I think we're all actually ambitious.
Some of us have just rejected that label because of
the way that it's been poor trayed, But every living
thing on the planet has a desire for more life
right from our plant baby to our human babies. But
I think what you're alluding to is more of the trap, right,
because I think ambition is neutral and natural, it's for
all of us. There's nothing wrong with it. It's a
beautiful thing. But this desire to grow, no matter the cost,
(18:16):
to win, no matter the cost to hurt ourselves in
the process, to step over people in the process, that's
the thing we don't want to do right, And sometimes
there is a tendency. So in the book, I talk
about two types of ambition. There's painful ambition, which is
what I just described, right, the winning, no matter the cost,
the hurting ourselves to get there, moving at this unsustainable pace.
And then there's purposeful ambition. Purposeful ambition is when our
(18:37):
ambition is connected to our truth and it's coming from
a place of wholeness. So that's my invitation in this work, right,
is to leave the old paradigm of the painful piece
that's harmful to us and others, and step into that
more truthful version. And in painful ambition, we're always moving
the goalpost. Nothing is ever enough for us. We achieve
one mountain, we're like, where is the next one. Right,
we don't stop long enough to enjoy the view. And
(18:59):
in purposeful ambition, we know that life is a spiral staircase.
We're always just, you know, moving up the staircase, moving
up the staircase, growing and becoming and becoming more of ourselves,
which is a really beautiful thing. And in purposeful ambition
we are more concerned with contentment. So contentment from Eastern
traditions translates into English as unconditional wholeness or the knowledge
(19:19):
of enough. It's this idea that regardless of what's happening
around us, we have this internal stability that tells us
I'm enough. Right, I have this knowledge of enough, And
that is such a crucial piece right, because it doesn't
mean that I don't want to continue to grow, but
it means that while I grow, I have this unconditional
wholeness on the inside, and I know that everything that
I've already done is enough, and who I am is enough.
(19:42):
Did that answer your question?
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Oh my god, I absolutely did. And I want to
go further into this purposeful ambition concept. Is there? Do
you have some kind of checklist, a series of questions?
How can we tell when something is purposeful? Ambition versus
painful ambition. What are the key signs or distinctions.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So they each have a couple of signatures. So painful
ambition looks like moving at an unsustainable pace, a strong
desire to win, no matter the cost, and the key
phrase there is no matter the cost, because there's nothing
wrong with winning. We all love to do it right.
But it's like when we're hurt ourselves or hurt others
to get to the goal. It looks like instrumentalizing our
minds and bodies to get to the goal.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
So like the eighty hour work weeks, the no sleeping,
the wearing, the stress is a badge of honor, all
of those things. It looks like black and white either
or thinking. And then purposeful there's there's more signatures in
the book. Those are just a couple, yeah, And then
purposeful ambition is growth mindset thinking right, expansive thinking. It
is being in a harmonious relationship with our minds and
(20:46):
bodies right like we always want to grow, We want
to learn some things, but I'm not hurting myself to
get there. It is honoring the pace and moving at
that speed of trust that it takes to do good work.
It is being more collaborative versus hyper in a vidualistic
and needing to shine and win as an individual.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
I really like the thing that you said around it
being collaborative and collective. Winning, like you said, is great.
Every human wants to do it. If you don't have
anyone to celebrate it with, because you haven't seen your
friends in months, because you haven't focused on building positive
relationships with your colleagues, because you stopped calling your mum,
(21:26):
it's kind of going to be pretty lonely. It's going
to be so lonely.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
And we know that so much of the research says
that longevity and health are connected to community and having
a really supportive community.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Actually, you're totally right. One of the longest longer funeral
studies ever done at Harvard University, which I'm sure you know,
looked at a number of participants for like seventy plus
years and they were like, the key factor in health
and longevity was the number of positive and healthy relationships
(22:00):
that someone has with others. We are going to take
a short break, but when we return, I want to
talk more about how competition harms us, the ambition penalties,
self sabotage, and how to truly work on your own
sense of self in order to approach ambition in a
more healthy way. Stay with us, Okay, we are back
(22:28):
talking about the ambition trap. I want to focus in
on one part of this in particular, which is how
competition harms us. We kind of talked about it in
relation to obviously harming our personal relationships and perhaps with
our colleagues or our friends. Can you go deeper into
talking about how that specifically applies to those of us
(22:51):
in our twenties. Maybe yes.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
I think competition again goes back to scarcity mindset. I
feel like that's the theme of today.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
We're just like scarcity mindset, guys, the one where do
you need.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
To know exactly? And the thing about scarcity mindset, right
is like it's a systemic and economic problem, but it
has those two pieces. It has the mindset piece and
the fact that it's systemically reinforced. Right. So oftentimes what
we see in the workplace is like, oh, there's space
for only one woman or one person in their twenties,
or you know, one person of color, and we're like,
oh my god, well I've got to beat out everybody
(23:21):
that looks like me to get this thing, right, It
causes infighting in those groups, and so I think that, yes,
we absolutely need to look at our own mindset, like
where do I feel like I have to fight out
this other person to win? Right? There's stuff on our
side of the street there, but also there's stuff that
needs to shift inside of organizations so that it doesn't
give us that impulse. Right. I always say to my
(23:42):
clients too, when we're captivated by purpose, we can't be
consumed by competition. And I think this is so important,
especially for work like you like yours. In mind. Right,
it's so easy to look on social media and be like, oh, well,
this person's doing this and I should be doing this, right,
But when we're so captivated and devoted to our purpose,
we're not looking in the other lane. We're like, I
(24:05):
see what I'm here to do, and it is so beautiful,
and I'm so devoted to that thing. And that's what
gets me out of bed every day. I'm actual getting
emotional saying this. You don't have time or care to
look around because you're so consumed with your contribution in
a beautiful way.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
And you know what, I've experienced that recently. Actually, now
that you've said it where when I first was, you know,
growing the psychology of your twenties, and not even intentionally,
people were just finding.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
It, which is a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
It was great. It was Yeah, I was so lucky,
but I was so insecure because I didn't expect it.
I never had this experience before, and I was like,
I have to be doing better. I have to be
making the most original and the best kind of episodes.
I have to be putting everything into this. And as
(24:53):
it is with anything that's entertainment, you know, there are charts,
and there are ratings, and there are all these things.
And I really wish that wasn't part of this medium,
and I wish that it was just more organic, but
it is, and it would really kind of took some
of the joy out of it. For me. Was competition.
Now I'm in this phase and in this place where
I'm just so delighted by what I'm doing. And I
(25:15):
felt it really in the last maybe six months where
I don't really check download numbers, I don't really check
what I don't really pay attention, and I think it's
because I've somehow become a lot more purposeful and intentional
in that there is no longer. I need to prove
(25:36):
that I'm capable of doing this, and I'm capable of
being good at this. Now I can just enjoy it.
So I like that you talked about that, and also
like the role of joy. What do you think the
role of joy is an ambition as well?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, And I just want to just put a bowl
on that last thing that you said, because I think
it's so beautiful and important because we do live in
a world that is upheld by metrics. Right, It's like
same for me, it's like my book sales matter, right.
But what I'm hearing from you and what's important for
me is that's not the come from right, That's not
the driver for us. The driver for us is being
devoted to amazing work and then oftentimes the byproduct of
(26:12):
that is the numbers. Right. But it's like when we
set out to like hit the chart and hit the goal,
and like it's so much control and that I think
eclipses joy for sure. And I want to answer your
joy question, but this there's a segue here.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
I need it tell me.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
So, like what I was just talking about with control, right,
what that says to me is core wound. So in
the book when I talk about painful ambition, painful ambition
is driven by core wounds. So in the book, I
leverage the work of Lis Borbo, who's a Canadian psychologist,
and she talks about how there's five core wounds rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal,
and injustice. And as a result of each of the wounds,
(26:49):
we were a corresponding mask. So if you have a
rejection wound, the maskuwer's avoidance. If you have a betrayal wound,
the maskuwer is control. That's one of mine. And so
sometimes we can start to see where our wound or
mask is getting in the way of actually feeling joy
and contentment in the context of our work. Right, So
that example you gave is so perfect and classic of
(27:11):
core wound driving the ambition, and that's painful ambition. And
then where you are now is like beautiful, purposeful ambition,
like releasing the mask.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
And I think the way I had to do that
was obviously you would have done this as well, like
you have to do a lot of self work. You
also just have to get back to being like I
have a choice here. I could have all the success
and all the good things, and I can hate myself
(27:42):
for it every single day and feel like my life
is burning around me. And then I am constantly in
a state of urgency and an in a state of pursuit.
Or I can have all of this and just accept
that sometimes I am just lucky and sometimes this stuff
people do just really resonate with you. And sometimes you've
(28:03):
done all the hard work and that like that investment
has paid off. You don't have to continue to prove yourself.
I'm sure you find this as well, like, how does
ambition come down to the need to prove ourselves? Have
you found a link between those two things as well?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yes, that's classic painful ambition, right, proving ourselves. And it
goes back to the core wounds. So you know, one
of my core wounds is rejection and the mask I
wear is avoidance. Right, So because I felt rejected as
a child, I will avoid as an adult, throwing my
hat in the ring because I'm so worried they'll be
rejected again. And because I have this rejection wound and
(28:39):
don't feel this sense of acceptance, I feel this impulse
to prove myself over and over again. And it looks
very similar for all the other core wounds as well,
and so we are all born worthy, right, we were
born innately worthy. Would anybody look at a brand new
baby and be like, but not worthy? Right? No, you
look at a baby and you're like, oh my god,
it's so perfect. But all this stuff gets layer it
(29:00):
on to us from our family systems, from culture, et cetera.
We adopt it as our own, and we think that
we're not enough and that we have to prove that
we are valuable. You're born valuable, and that's the message
that each of us needs to come home to. And
when we realize that our desire for growth isn't coming
from that place to prove ourselves, it's coming from this
is actually just a natural unfolding of my truth.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
And I really liked it. You said that, like it.
You are completely worthy, whether you are successful or not,
like whether you choose to pursue big, great grand things
or you choose to just live a really a really
amazing and slow and simple life. Like, Yes, there is
(29:44):
not one life path that is more valuable than another.
So unless you are not hurting other people or hurting yourself,
as long as you have happiness and kindness and joy,
you could be like a New York Times bestseller. You
could be someone who just has a real a garden
and talks to three people, and both of those lives
are like inherently valuable. I think it also comes down
(30:06):
to this weird hierarchy we have in our society that like,
if you have money, and if you have success, and
if you have a public figure, a public facing like
kind of persona, well you must be happier than anyone else.
And if you are happier, then obviously, like your life
is better. But if other people perceive you as being
(30:28):
more successful and happier, then that even that adds to
that even more. Some of the most successful people you
meet are actually deeply unhappy. Wow, yeah, most people. Yeah,
And like some of the richest people in the world,
it's like they don't have anyone they can trust, Like
they don't like themselves, the public doesn't like them, Like
(30:48):
they're not they don't seem like very good people. So
what is it about this that we think is like
the secret to life?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yes, I think I think about this all the time.
I don't think it's a weird philosophical question at all.
We operate in a capitalist system, right, and capitalism says
the more money, the better, right, But that's the essence
of the ambition trap, because we know that we can
get all of the money, all of the accolades, like
all of the trophies, all of the followers, and if
you don't do the work on the inside, you are
(31:17):
still going to be miserable, right, because the happiness doesn't
live outside of us, The contement doesn't live outside of us,
the contentments on the inside. And even in the book,
I actually was really careful not to over use the
language of happiness because even that, I think can become
a little troubling, because happiness is an emotion and is
therefore transient. We're not supposed to be happy all the time.
We're actually the healthiest people on the planet are the
(31:37):
ones that make space for emo diversity, which is all
emotions coming and going. And so even this idea of
clinging to happiness and that's the north star, is slightly
troubling because we're supposed to feel everything. We're supposed to feel, sadness, grief, happiness, joy, disappointment,
all of it. Not grip onto it, but let it
come and go in the way that it's supposed to,
which is why I'm an advocate for contentment, and so
(32:00):
I don't think any of these people are happy, nor
do I think that they're contented, because I think that
they're seeking the thing outside of themselves when the work
is on the inside.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
No. Absolutely, And I can say is someone I've fallen
into that many many a time and I read the book. Yeah, no,
literally exactly. And it's also this sense of like I
was saying this to someone the other day as well.
The times as well that I've been posting on social
media the most that I've portrayed my life as being
(32:31):
the most incredible have also been the times that I've
been happy, like been the least content, not the least happy,
also not very happy, but the least content because I
felt like the external validation would fill some kind of
whole or would feel some kind of make us feel valuable.
And I think this is what this is all coming
(32:51):
back to, right. We have an unhealthy relationship with ambition
because we think that the success that ambition will bring,
or payful ambition will bring, is going to fill a
hole in our life that nothing else can fill, and
it's going to fill some kind of need that can
never be fulfilled by anything other than money, recognition, success,
(33:14):
And if you continue to believe that, like you said,
you spoke of your story of becoming ill from burnout,
your self sabotage, you don't have good relationships. So my
question for you is, how do we begin to redefine this?
How do we begin to see ourselves as valuable and
(33:36):
see how ambition is sustainable without it hurting us?
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, I think this is the million dollar question, and
I really believe it starts with the work on the
core wounds. So literally, in the introduction and in chapter one,
I get straight into this because I'm like, I don't
want to waste any time, like this is this is
what I love that yes, please, And so I think
that we need to really understand which wounds are and
how they're showing up in our relationship to ambition and
success and work and even friendships, Like it shows up
(34:05):
in relationships all the time. I get this question so much,
so it's everywhere. And if we don't do that work
on the core wounds, we are going to be constantly
seeking the thing outside of ourselves because we don't feel
worthy on the inside. So we need to bring as
much of a salve to that wound as we possibly can.
Otherwise we're in a perpetual chase outside of ourselves. So
that I think is some of the most fundamental work.
(34:28):
And you know, it's interesting because I don't know that
the wound is ever like fully healed, right, I think
it's always like you know, yeah, getting a little scab,
a little scar, like getting better, right, building the collagen
around it. I'm always metaphor, but you know, but it's
but I think every next level of our careers and
our becoming, we have a different way of dealing with it, right.
It's like you're in a very public career. I'm in
(34:50):
a public career, and because I've done work on those
core wounds, because I've worked on my nervous system, you know,
there's a lot of positivity, but there's also some negativity
that comes with it. But I'm equipped to hold it
now and it doesn't impact my value because I've done
at work. Right. It's like, I think it'd be so
hard to be in a career like minor yours if
we were outsourcing our value because every comment are the worst.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yeah. Yeah, So literally I was talking to another friend
of mine about this the other day, and it happens
not just in this industry, in any industry, but like
for her, I was talking about how like she would
get hate comments and it just ruins her life, Like
her day is ruined. She cannot do anything else, and
that person hasn't thought about it at all. It's the
(35:34):
same with like you're in an office job and like
there's a workplace bully. They don't they don't care, and
it's gonna completely destroy you. I think that it's again
this thing. You cannot hinge your value on a relationship,
on someone else's perception, on material success, all of those
things are completely fallible. When you have an internal sense
of I am worthy and I do great things, and
(35:57):
I am capable, and I trust myself, you are like unsure, shakeable,
like nothing anyone says is ever going to harm you,
even if it's nasty and cruel.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, exactly. I think that's so important. Hurt people hurt people, right,
so they're coming from a core wound, and that's so
important to see and if you can then still feel
whole in that right and maybe it's even a learning
for us in it, right. I think that's always a
beautiful thing too. But if it doesn't take us down,
Like there's the magic.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
And also it stops that wound from becoming contagious, like
that person who has tried to bring you down or
whatever it is like hurt people, hurt people. As you said,
someone has hurt them you. If you take it on
and you let that injure you, you will continue to
do that to someone else. It's why sometimes like our
biggest haters are the ones that are most insecure about
(36:45):
themselves because right, no, no, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
The part about it being contagious is so true. Right,
if we continue to live in our wounds, then we're
just inviting others to do the same. And like so
then it's such an act of service for us to
do the work on hours. It's so beautifully said.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
And especially like what you were talking about before in
terms of like ambition is also about community and also
about collaboration. It's like it's all coming together fixing your
whole wounds, Like that is the greatest gift you can give,
not just to like your children, not to your family members,
but to anyone who comes into contact with you. All
(37:22):
you allow yourself to be this example of what ambition
can look like and what a healthy relationship with self
can look like such as other people jump on the
bandwagon and like, I'm touper capable of doing that as well.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
That's where the magic is. Literally, that's what people are like, well,
how do we change the world with this?
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Right?
Speaker 2 (37:42):
And like what starts with us? Because the minute that
we do that work, we show up differently and we're
in a chance with everybody around us. Right, so if
I go left instead of going right, now they're accommodating
me and they're different too, and then there's this beautiful
ripple effect out in the world. And so it starts
with us, but it can very easily grow from.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
The oh absolutely one. Like people don't realize, you know,
the idea of obviously like six degrees of separation, Like
every single person in this in this world is separated
by maximum six degrees. It's it's wild, Like when you
really start doing it, Me and my friends do this.
Sometimes we're like this random person in this random country
(38:21):
and it's like, you can it's always six degrees. So
imagine how quick that positivity can spread, And imagine how
quick that new vision of ambition can spread if we
just really start to live it. I do have a
follow up question though, and I'm sure it's one that
a lot of people are asking themselves. How can we
deliberately slow down without feeling like we're falling behind, especially
(38:43):
in our twenties, because I feel like this is something
that people in this decade struggle with, especially.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yes, this is such a good one. And so I
think there's two things. First, it is working in our
zone of genius. So in the book I talk about
how so zone of genius a term that was coined
by Gay Hendrix in his book The Big Leap. And
in the book, I talk about how we operate in
three zones. So we have our genus or our exceptional zone,
our excellent zone, in our zone the space that 'ra
average at. And so when we know what our zone
(39:13):
of genius is or what our exceptional traits are, we
have to use so much less energy and time because
it's our magic. Right, it's just kind of innate. You
don't have to push or force, Right, I can see
that this is part of your genius, what you're doing
right now, and so you can show up in this
thing in less like you don't need to spend eight
hours a day in this right. It's like it's so
(39:34):
fine tuned and potent that you don't need to spend
all day every day doing it. So I think that
shift from our excellent zone or our zone, which is
where most of us start our careers, because we're kind
of honing. And if you can spend even just starting
by ten minutes a day in your zone of genius
and then building that over time, you don't have to
worry about slowing down because the contribution over in your
(39:55):
genius is going to be so potent it makes up
for everything. And then the other piece is letting your
nervous system feel safe doing less, because we live in
a world that is moving so fast, and knowledge changes
so quickly, and everybody's moving at a million miles a minute,
and so it feels unsafe for most of our nervous systems.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
To go slow.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Like I'm in this season right now, like I mentioned before,
where it's a little slower. It's the summer, And just
because I came off a season that was so busy,
I noticed that my nervous system at first was like,
is this safe. We're used to running a million miles
a minute, especially for the last year. Is it okay?
And I had to really do the work to let
my body feel safe at this slower pace, but reminding
myself right of like I don't need to do everything.
(40:37):
I need to do the thing that I am best
and most potent at. And I think that's true for anybody,
whatever stage of their career, but especially in our twenties.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yeah, and especially as you're experimenting. Right, it's okay to
be like, I'm actually not that good at this and
I don't have anything to prove yes by proving that
I can be the best. Like I had this when
I was in UNI and I was studying economics, and
I was like, I'm never going to be a top
student in this subject. It's just not going to happen. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
I also studied economics and also knew that I was
not going to be a top student in the topic.
I was like, yeah, good bye with a bee, all right.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah. Yeah. That's when I got to micro two. I
was out. I was like, Microeconomics two is where I
was like, this is not my future, Like this is
not who I'm going to be.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Oh my god, say our class average in Microeconomics two
was a thirty six out of one hundred. That was
a class average, Like we were all failing.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Oh my god. No, See I did it during COVID,
and I think that they were nicer to us because
like I was. It was like my last year was
the first year of COVID, and then I also did
like Macro two. It was just a it was just
a lot. But you know, I remember being like, oh
my god, I've always put so much in my grades
and I've always tied so much to like my output,
(41:48):
and if I'm not good at this, like an employer
isn't going to want to hire me for this. For
this one, I have to be amazing and everything. Otherwise
I'm not a well rounded individual. And I blah blah
blah blah blah. And then I was like wait a second,
Like I can focus more on these psychology subjects and
my great point average will say the same because I'm
doing it. Was just like this. It's such a basic moment,
(42:09):
but just this moment of being like, I'm not going
to give up, but I'm just going to spend more
time in my zone of genius and spend more time
on the thing that I'm like good at. Because we
all do have natural talents, we all have something that
we probably multiple things that we are going to be
it's going to be easy for us, easier for us
to be great at. Yeah, and so maybe part of
(42:32):
like being in your twenties is not just finding out
what you enjoy, but also finding out what that is
for you. And also normally the enjoyment comes with it, right,
because if you're naturally good at something, it's easier to
get into a flow state, it's easier to feel like purposeful.
So honestly, it's incredibly powerful, right.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
And the one thing I want to say too, is
because I feel like my twenties was a process of
checking off everything that I was not good at to
get to what I was good at. And I think
sometimes that process can feel like sticky and uncomfortable, but
that's the journey, right of like just being like, oh
not that thing, not that thing that, oh this thing right. Yeah,
So if you're in a process where it's like you
feel like you've done all the things that you're not
good at, keep going because it means that you're closer
(43:11):
to the thing that you are good at.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Oh so so true, like when you get there the flows,
like you'll know. People always like, how will I know?
Speaker 2 (43:21):
It's undeniable?
Speaker 1 (43:22):
It's undeniable, like you will know because it will just
feel like you could. You could live your entire life
that in the time that you spend doing these activities.
And here's the thing. It doesn't always have to do
have to be bad about work exactly.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
And I think that we do feel so much pressure
to monetize everything that we do. And exactly what you said,
it's like, if it feels sacred to keep it as
your hobby, keep it as your hobby. Also, if you
don't want to do purposeful work in your day job
because you want to keep that for yourself, do that right.
There's so much to be said for the good enough job,
and so purpose doesn't have to be our job. We
don't have to have the purposeful job. We don't have
(43:58):
to turn everything into our I and that's so important
to hear because that's not how I started.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
I always say to people, if you want to make
a career out of your hobby, you most certainly have
to love it two hundred percent, because the moment you
start making money from something, you're gonna love it a
whole lot less. You want to make sure and you're
still loving it like as much as you can I
have a friend who's like this, and she's like, I
don't really care what my job is. I my life
exists outside of my job. My life exists in my
(44:25):
relationships and in my day to day I just make
I'm just choosing the job that I think I can
make the most money from the least amount of effort
from so I can go and have fun. And I
was like, great, And that woman, I love her. She
uses her sickly if she uses her personal leave like
she does not give an f And I'm like, that
is that is an aligned life, that is full ambition
right exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
She is living a beautifully aligned life. Good for her.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
I've got one final question for you, and it has
nothing to do with ambition. Actually, it's the question we
ask every single guest at the end of the episode.
What is one piece of advice that you have for
people in their twenty that has nothing to do with
what we spoke about today.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
I would say, like it is related tangentially, but like
have as much fun as possible. I think that connected
to what we were saying. We feel all of this
pressure to do all of these things and achieve all
of these things in our twenties. But like, what about
the fun? Right, It's like your joints will never be
as good as they are in their twenties, probably, right, So, like,
you know, do the thing that's outside, like go on
(45:24):
vacation with your friends, like do the thing that brings
you the most joy. Like I think that we just
put our heads down and work too hard and we
miss the fun and then we look back and we're
so nostalgic, and it's like I had it so good.
Why didn't I take advantage? And so think as much
as you can, just really have fun.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Oh, I love that advice. That's actually good. I needed
to hear this today. I was going to sit in
and I was going to sit in my hotel room
and work all day, and I think, I'm gonna go
do go for a run, I'm very exploring, I'm going
to play.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
I love that. Well, I'm gonna thank you so much
for coming on the podcast. This felt like a very
soulfully aligned casation and what I really needed to hear.
Where can everyone find your book? Because I think it's
essential reading.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Thank you so much for having me. This is one
of my most fun conversations, and I love how you
related everything to what you're going through, what your listeners
are going through. It just makes it so much more
fun to participate in. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
And you can find the book everywhere books are sold,
So whether that's your favorite indie bookstore, they can order
it for you or a national retailer. It is available everywhere.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
And it is also has a beautiful cover. I will
say I have a copy not with me, but at
my house and I had someone over the other day
who picked it up and now like, it's a beautiful
book cover. Oh, thank you yeah, and it's a good yeah.
I was like, it's a good book as well. I
think she took it home with her. But I'll make
sure that that is super accessible for you guys to find.
(46:46):
I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope it's re
framed something for you in terms of ambition or success,
especially in our twenty Sometimes it is just the reminder
that we need to hear. Make sure that you are
following me on Instagram at that Psychology podcast, and that
you're following us here on Spotify, Apple, iHeart wherever you
are listening to help the show grow and reach new people,
(47:07):
and so you know when new episodes are coming out,
but until next time, stay safe, be kind, maybe be
a little bit less ambitious today, be gentle with yourself,
and we will talk very soon.
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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