February 21, 2026 • 35 mins
When did ‘narcissist’ become the go-to explanation for every difficult person - and what do we lose when one word starts covering everything from basic selfishness to genuine psychological harm? In this bonus episode, we break down what psychologists actually mean by narcissism: where the term came from, what it truly means, and how the term has been adopted in our society.
We explore:
• Differences between Narcissistic Personality Disorder and narcissistic traits
• The two main forms of narcissism
• How has the term become overused?
• The dangers of simplifying the term
• Can narcissists ever change? Or is it all pretend?
Listen now!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everybody, I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the
Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through
the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and
what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back
(00:25):
to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is
so great to have you here, back for another episode.
I think this is the first episode in like five
episodes where I am no longer sick and you guys
don't have to listen to like a disgusting nasal noise
come into your ears. So for that, I am grateful,
and for that I am excited for today's episode. We
(00:49):
have another well, I should say, I have another mini
episode for you today. If you are not familiar with
our many episodes, they're basically kind of smaller, bite sized
episodes where we break down a certain phrase, a certain
psychological concept that gets thrown around a lot online, in tiktoks,
(01:11):
in dating discourse, in group chats, and essentially we dissect
what it actually means according to the psychology rather than
according to the pop culture. And today we are tackling,
let's be honest, the most requested, the most weaponized and
probably the most misunderstood term and label of them all.
(01:36):
We are talking about narcissism. I'm not gonna waste any
time today because we have so much to talk about.
But narcissism is such a fascinating term when you scratch
even below a tiny inch below the surface. And it's
also such an ancient term, which I think a lot
of people might not know. Probably maybe no given its
(01:58):
modern day popularities. So you may have heard of the
Greek myth of Narcissus before. Basically this is where the
term comes from. Narcissus was this incredibly handsome, striking young
man who just really cruelly rejected all of his admirers,
so he didn't want anything to do with any of them,
all these beautiful women. This led to the goddess Nemesis
(02:22):
punishing Narcissus with an all consuming love for nothing but
his own reflection, so much so that the story goes
he drowned staring at his reflection in a pond, like
so consumed by wanting so much more of it. This
is where the term basically gets his name from this man, Narcissus.
(02:44):
It didn't actually become a psychological term until much much
later in the eighteen hundreds. In eighteen ninety eight, a
theorist his name was Havelock Ellis was the first to
use the narcissus myth to describe a particular kind of
client or person. He was seeing people who were basically
(03:08):
just obsessed with themselves, and for him, they were really
obsessed with themselves, like sexually, like they truly thought that
they were the hottest thing out. They were really consumed
by themselves, and he was seeing this pattern of individual
He also knew the story that is where narcissism originally
got its label and from their psychoanalysts like Ottorank and
(03:33):
Sigmund Freud expanded on this to say that narcissism was
more of a normal characteristic of someone's personality rather than
something that was exclusively sexual, and it was a spectrum
that we all kind of sat upon. All of us
can be a little bit narcissistic, or all of us
can have quite a low ego that makes us not
(03:55):
narcissistic at all. When it becomes a little bit unbalanced
and skewed, and when somebody has more a bigger, higher dosage,
higher level of narcissism compared to all their other traits
that creates the type of person that we are familiar with,
the one who we would say has a disordered way
(04:16):
of seeing the world and engaging with others because they
are a narcissist. So, in simple terms, narcissism is a
personality trait made up of a cluster of behaviors and
smaller traits like one a heightened sense of self importance,
two entitlement to special treatment, three a strong need for admiration,
(04:38):
and four low empathy and exploitative behavior. More broadly, narcissism
is often described as closely tied to the pursuit of status.
No matter what, there is this drive within this individual
to be impressive, to be the center of attention, to
be kind of socially emotion physically untouchable in some kind
(05:04):
of way. And that's one of the key points I
think gets mixed up pretty often. Narcissism is not just
high self esteem and thinking that you are incredible, because
some people are really incredible. Some people are just really
cool and they're successful and they know that and they
(05:25):
don't actually need to be humble about it. Healthy self
esteem is this, you know, this is what we would
label healthy self esteem. Their basis for their positive for
their positive kind of assumptions about themselves are based in
evidence they are actually an incredible person. But also these
people can accept criticism, and they can bounce back from failure,
(05:49):
and they can bounce back from not being chosen, they
can bounce back from not needing to be the best
at something. Narcissists, on the other hand, yes, may present
as incredibly confident, Yes may be successful, but what's underneath
that is a deep, deep fragility that gives them an
incredibly unhealthy self esteem that is tied to equal parts
(06:14):
their own sense of self importance and then equal parts
the need for everybody else in the room to see
them as important. And this fragility, this fragility, is what
fuels defensiveness, blame, control, contempt for others. They need to
maintain their self image at all costs, because without it,
(06:38):
they are just this very fragile, very weak, very scared individual.
Underneath it all, let's talk about really quickly the distinction
between having narcissistic personality disorder and having something that we
call basically like having trait narcissism. So just a high
level of narcissist attributes because they are quite different. Narcissistic
(07:03):
personality disorder is a very real diagnosis. Somebody can get
this label in their file, and it was first introduced,
as we said, in the eighties. But it's actually not
that common narcissistic personality disorder. I think it has a
prevalence of anywhere between zero point two to zero point
(07:24):
six percent of the population, and that's mainly based on
US population studies. It is actually around fifty to seventy
five percent more common in males than females, but some
people have said that's just because women may be better
at hiding it than men are, because of this social
conditioning to be more humble, even if that's not the
(07:47):
way they truly feel. The key thing that the American
Psychiatric Association highlights, though, is that again, to get to
this point of being like you are disordered, you have
a serious, proper something. It has to be very drastic.
Most people don't get this diagnosis unless you know they've
experienced several marriage breakdowns, they've come to contact with the
(08:13):
court system, they have been an abusive partner. Like It's
quite difficult actually to get that label in most cases
when we encounter somebody who thinks very highly of themselves,
is very desperate to seem successful and admirable. They may
not have a diagnosis, they may not be worthy of
(08:34):
a diagnosis, but they may be high in this thing
that I just mentioned called trait narcissism. Trait narcissism is
not a disorder. It's basically a personality style. It is
a set of tendencies you can kind of score higher
or lower on, and doesn't automatically mean that, again, you
have a disorder. Trait narcissism, the thing that we are
(08:56):
more commonly encountering basically shows up into very very broad forms.
The first is grandiose narcissism. So this is the typical
idea of narcissism that we see. Grandiose narcissism is the
big inflated ego. It's social dominance. It's this larger than
life personality. Sometimes these people can come off as really
(09:18):
charming and really persuasive, but they can also be very
aggressive and very entitled. This is the idea again we
know most often. I'm sure you can think of a
couple of political or cultural examples going on at the moment.
The second distinct form of narcissism is vulnerable narcissism. This
(09:43):
is the person that we don't always notice, but who
is a lot more insidious and sometimes harmful because their
pattern of behaviors doesn't look like arrogance. Really it's about
emotional insecure already and defensiveness. They are easily hurt, they
(10:04):
are easily embarrassed, they are easily threatened, and so what
they end up doing is trying to put you down,
trying to emotionally manipulate their surroundings so that they are
always the victim, so that they always get special treatment,
so that no matter what, they are at the center
(10:26):
of attention. But what it's this interesting thing where the
reason they're at the center of the center of attention
isn't always because of their achievements. Sometimes it's because of
their pain and suffering. Sometimes it's because they're the one
who always has the most dramatic story that they need
to one up everybody else in the room with. This
(10:48):
is vulnerable narcissism. Now here's where it gets even more interesting,
because psychologists have basically realized that just saying grandiose versus
vulnerable trait narcissism, it still doesn't fully explain it. So
more recent models break it down into three core components.
The first component of what makes somebody's narcissistic personality is antagonism,
(11:12):
and this tends to show up in both grandiose and
vulnerable narcissism. Antagonism is that entitlement, that exploitativeness, that desire
to get what you want. It's when there is an
assumption from somebody that the rules don't apply to me.
(11:32):
I can get away with whatever I want to, and
the people around me they're not just people. They are resources,
they are status symbols, they are threats. They are something
that can be manipulated. I can antagonize them, I can
manipulate them into doing what I want them to. Component
(11:58):
two is something called a gentic extraversion, and this is
more commonly and closely linked to grandiose narcissism, basically social dominance, assertiveness, charisma.
This again looks like somebody who needs to be the leader.
They need to be the most impressive, successful person, the
(12:22):
loudest person, the most the smartest person in a very
specific kind of way. And then the final and third
and final component is narcissistic neuroticism. And this is where
I know I'm really drilling home this point. But this
is where vulnerable and grandiose narcissism differ, because somebody with
vulnerable narcissism might not have that extraversion, but what they
(12:45):
will have is this real sensitivity to criticism and almost
this like split. I don't want to say split personality
because that's not what it is, but it does give
that appearance of this person is really nice. They're so innocent,
they're so kind, they're so lovely, they've had such a
(13:05):
hard time, and then when somebody does criticize them, when
they are not the center of attention, they go in
for the kill. They see you now as a threat.
They need to annihilate your character. They become very defensive,
they become angry, they become resentful, they become withdrawn. And
this is why you know, both those types of individuals
(13:30):
have trait narcissism, but they look so different. And I
think that vulnerable narcissism we're talking about is the kind that,
again is so insidious. You maybe can notice it in
the relationship you have with family members or a friend,
where you are having this very different experience to what
(13:51):
other people are having with this person because they haven't
been able to see through this this kind of mask
yet and see what these behaviors and this personality is
pattern of personality really is, which is that this person
needs to be the most important and going about it
the grandiose way maybe hasn't worked for them, So this
(14:11):
is the new way. They're going to do it equally
through emotional manipulation, but through a different kind of emotional manipulation.
So how do you actually spot a real narcissist? I
want to be really careful here. You cannot diagnose narcissistic
personality disorder from the outside. You cannot diagnose it from
(14:34):
one argument, and you definitely can't diagnose it from somebody
just being a little bit frustrating or a little bit egocentric.
We all mess up in public spaces sometimes, we all
have moments of being a little bit grandiose. We all
have moments where we've definitely dominated a conversation or we've
been a little bit selfish. That doesn't necessarily give somebody
(14:56):
a disordered way of thinking, and it doesn't necessarily make
them high in trade narcissism unless it is a continued pattern.
And even then I would be very wary of saying
this person has NPD. I would probably say this person
is high in narcissistic traits. But here are some questions
to ask yourself if you genuinely think somebody is this
(15:18):
and is this kind of force in your life? Number one,
do you think this person actually cares about you or
do they care about what you can do for them?
Do you believe this person sees you as their equal?
Number two? Do they take on board criticism? Well? Very easy?
Number three? Are they always at the center of things
(15:42):
or do they let people tag in to the spotlight?
Number four? Do different rules apply to them compared to
everybody else? And can you see that in their behavior?
Number five? Do they always need to be superior to
(16:02):
be admired or do they always have to be right
even if it costs you your dignity and your reputation
and your well being. Basically, do you believe that you
have a genuine relationship or are you just a pawn?
Let's pause here. Those questions are useful. I also know
(16:23):
what a lot of you guys are thinking, Oh my god,
what if that's me? Am I a narcissist? I can
relate to sometimes not taking criticism well. I can relate
to sometimes wanting the spotlight I like to be right.
Every time I talk about narcissism, I always think that
I'm a narcissist. Always I don't know why. And every
(16:45):
time I make an episode or I mentioned narcissism, I
always get questions and comments from people being like, is
that me? Can you diagnose me? Can you tell me
if I'm one of these people? So I'm going to
give you a little bit of a personal checklist as
well to rule out or rule in maybe you are anarcissist.
(17:06):
You're probably not, but to rule out that you are
probably probably not. Can you apologize without adding but you
made me? Yes or no? When you are criticized, do
you genuinely care about why? Do you genuinely try to
change your behavior or do you just attack and deflect?
(17:31):
Do you treat people as whole humans or just as
an audience? When you feel insecure in a situation at work,
do you try and repair the situation? Do you try
and take time away and examine your insecurity or do
you just try and dominate other people in the space.
(17:53):
Can you be wrong? Can you be wrong? Have you
been wrong in the last little while. It's a great
litmus test. Are you actually interested in other people's lives.
That is the litmus test. Those are the questions that
I always give people or always think of when that
(18:15):
thought comes into my head. I also know, even just
questioning am I a narcissist? Shows me shows you, guys
that you're probably not, because if you were a narcissist,
your ego most likely wouldn't even let you consider that
as a possibility. So it's this funny irony, right, thinking
(18:35):
that you are probably means that you aren't. You are
very much safe here. Okay, let's take a short break
because after this we need to zoom out and talk
about why this word has exploded culturally and whether we
are actually becoming more narcissistic as a society. To stay
with us, so we are obviously hearing the term narcissism
(19:01):
a whole lot more. Is that because narcissism is actually
increasing in society, or just because it's become a bit
of a phenomena, because it's just become a source of fascination.
The thing is, researchers aren't really that short. Because society
(19:22):
has become more individualistic, it has become more narcissist friendly
with the rise of social media. Is that just meaning
that narcissistic voices or narcissistic individuals they are getting more
of a spotlight, or is the underlying prevalence actually increasing.
So in two thousand and eight, researchers from San Diego
(19:44):
State University they published their decades long findings on this
very question. They had a sample of over sixteen thousand
people that they basically looked at between the years of
nineteen seventy nine and two thousand and six. They wanted
to see across these quick my math thirty years. Let's say,
(20:06):
across these thirty years, are we seeing an increase or
is it something else at play? That's a lot of people.
And what they found was that there was a thirty
percent increase in narcissistic traits based on the earlier year's average.
So every year they were seeing a slight thirty percent uptick.
(20:29):
Now you have to remember that's not thirty percent on
like already half of this population had narcissism or had
high narcissistic traits. This was like a thirty percent uptick
on like zero point two, and then on zero point five,
and then on one percent, and then on two percent.
So it still was quite minor. But when you hear
(20:51):
thirty percent, you really your eyes kind of go wide
of like, oh my god, does that really mean like
one in three people around me are high and in narcissism. No,
not necessarily. That is just one finding, and it definitely
gets more complicated as to whether narcissism is just more
visible or more prevalent. A more recent twenty twenty four
large scale meta analysis challenged this idea that we have
(21:16):
a narcissism epidemic. Researchers they pulled results from over a
thousand papers looking at narcissism scores using that same measure
they used in the San Diego study, and they looked
at it globally from a little bit of a longer
period nineteen eighty two to twenty twenty three. And what
was important about the study is that it also included,
(21:38):
you know, the twenty tens and the early twenty twenties
where social media really blew up. They actually found that
narcissistic traits were pretty stable in the eighties and nineties.
They then actually decreased in the two thousands and in
more recent decades, which completely contrast the previous study. Here
(22:02):
is my take that nobody asked for, but I'm going
to give it to you in the spirit of self
centeredness and narcissism. I just think that our culture has
made narcissism and the visibility of narcissism rise to the surface.
It's not actually increased it. The genuine level of true
narcissism and people who truly have narcissistic personality disorder is
(22:26):
pretty stable. They're definitely still out there. It's just given
us much more visibility of people who may have higher
rates of this trait, especially because those kinds of people
who do like attention and who do like being the center,
and who do have a strong ego, they thrive in
(22:46):
online spaces. They really do like being not being a narcissist.
Having high narcissistic traits would make social media a lot
easier for you. I think it would also make it
a lot harder for you as well, well, because obviously
you get to a certain level of fame and you
are going to get criticism, and that's when we see
people get really reactive and very angry. That's like a
(23:09):
very big sign. But you know, we have built this
world where it's easier than ever to manage your self
worth externally through metrics through visibility, through likes, through follower account,
through you know, a curated identity, and that self presentation
is rewarded. Now, again let's be careful here. Wanting attention,
wanting to blow up online, wanting to post more content,
(23:32):
liking yourself does not make you a narcissist. There are
people out there who are truly very manipulative and do
not want to change, and who cause a whole lot
of pain. So we have to be really careful with
over using this term. If everyone is a narcissist, if
it continues to be this casual phrase, then the word
(23:56):
stops holding as much power and needing as much attention
in cases where someone is genuinely problematic, maybe even dangerous.
I think the other issue with that overuse is that
it can invalidate people who have lived through a genuine
pattern of narcissistic abuse or narcissistic control that and they
(24:18):
just want to be taken seriously. They just want people
to really see the pattern that they have gone through
without people assuming that they're just being dramatic or they're
just latching onto the new buzz hype word. Think about
cases of again narcissistic abuse or workplace harassment. It can
(24:40):
turn this overuse, can turn their experience into just another
Internet buzzword, and it makes it easier again for outsiders
to dismiss it as, oh, it's just another bit of breakup,
or it's you know, everybody's boss is a little bit narcissistic,
everybody's boss is a little bit terrible, rather than recognizing
that for some people it was prolonged manipulation, prolonged character assassination, coersion,
(25:07):
psychological harm, and they are paying the price, whether it
was in a relationship, whether it was with a parent,
with a sibling, with a friend, with a boss, with
a coworker. Because of this, I would honestly say we
need to widen our vocabulary a little bit for why
(25:29):
somebody we may think as a narcissist, why it was
that their behavior is so off or so painful without
just slapping on the easiest label we can find. I
think this also may help us, you know, privately, understand
what we've been through and understand our pain. But you know,
the narcissist label, it may be a shortcut that does
(25:51):
a disservice. What were you actually experiencing? What about this
person was truly you know, difficult to endure? Were they manipulated?
Were they domineering? Did they never let you speak? Did
they never let you control the friendship or control the relationship?
Did they never ask you how your day was? Did
they never consider your life? Did they make you something
(26:14):
to manipulate to make others like them? Were they hostile, cruel, unthinking, dismissive? Again,
why did that vocabulary? I think it's actually a very
healing thing to not just use that label but actually
be able to articulate why someone's behavior is harmful, not
(26:38):
just for you, but for them as well, so that
if they aren't actually a narcissist, they can change and
they can identify, hopefully or have some self awareness as
to what exactly you were bothered by, rather than just
hearing you call them a narcissist and being like, well,
that person doesn't know what they're talking about. The more specific,
(26:58):
I think, the more power. Let's circle back to that
thing I said that I've kind of just completely glazed over.
Can true narcissists change? That is our final question of
the day. If you just looked online, the general consensus
would be no. And I get why that idea is
(27:19):
really popular. If you've been hurt by somebody who repeatedly
denies your reality, who has twisted blame back onto you,
who has treated your feelings like an inconvenience. The idea
that they're incapable of change is really comforting because it
makes the chaos make sense right, and it makes the
outcome feel inevitable, not personal. The sad reality is that
(27:43):
the truth is more nuanced people with narcissistic personality disorder
or narcissistic traits. There is evidence they can change, or
that they can give the appearance of change, as some
people would speculate. It doesn't make it easy. The first
thing to understand is that narcissistic behaviors often function like
(28:03):
a protective system. And this isn't to say you have
to have empathy for this person who has hurt you.
You have to understand why they are the way they are.
But you know these aren't just random bad habits. These
are patterns of self protection, which is why they are
so stubborn, because you're not just asking somebody to stop
(28:25):
being arrogant. You are asking them to tolerate emotions that
their ego and their self finds unbearable, things like shame, inadequacy,
a sense of worthlessness, vulnerability. So that is why forcing
change or even asking a narcissist to change does seem
(28:47):
so impossible because it requires two things. Number one being
insight that they actually have to see that there is
a problem with their behavior and acknowledge that they have
hurt people. That's difficult for anybody to admit, but especially
hard when your identity is built around being right and
being special and being untouchable. The other thing they need
(29:09):
is motivation. You know, many people with more entrenched narcissistic patents,
they don't seek help because they don't actually experience themselves
as a problem. So yes, they may be able to
look back and see this pattern of broken relationships and
this pattern of people being very angry with them, but
(29:29):
they don't have the motivation to change because on another level,
they're very successful. They're making a ton of money, they
are a leader, they believe they have respect, so this
trait is also helping them. Often, what therapists will find
when they do encounter the rare individual with narcissistic personality
(29:52):
disorder in a clinical setting is that often it's somebody
else dragging them to the table. A relationship is going
to end. This marriage is going to fall apart. You
have done something terrible at work. Your reputation has taken
a huge hit. They're in the prison setting. They are
in a you know, they have committed a crime, in
(30:15):
other words, suffering and the disordered nature of this has
become so undeniable that either through some miracle they have
brought themselves in or a system or a person has
pushed them into a therapy setting. That is how they
end up there. Let's say this, even if this person
is able to change and is able to develop empathy
(30:38):
and a stable sense of self and is able to
see the issue with their behavior, it's not going to
happen quickly, and it may not happen at all, but
there is a chance, there is a small chance. And
it's kind of this thing, this dilemma where it's like,
people who genuinely have narcissistic personality disorder, what are we
meant to do with them in society? You know, hope
(31:00):
that they get what they want, Hope that they are
skillful enough to not hurt people in their manipulation. No, like,
if there is this one percent, let's say, of people
who just operating out there, what do we do with them?
And people have to believe. There has to be the
sense that they can change. There has to be some
(31:22):
kind of optimism for the role of therapy. The thing is,
and what is always going to come up in this discussion,
is with somebody who truly has these traits, do they
change or do they just learn a new way of operating?
Do they just learn a new set of behaviors that
are equally manipulative, which is to fake humility and to
(31:47):
fake self deprecation and to fake empathy as a disguise
for true self awareness, which is that they are aware
they have a problem, or they are least aware that
people don't enjoy their behavior. They want to be liked,
so the manipulation or the I guess their behavior then
(32:10):
tells them that this is the better way to act
in this new situation to continue being liked, which is
to basically fake the behaviors that others want to see
in them. And you know what, how do we know?
How do we ever know that somebody who has been
through therapy for narcissistic traits or narcissistic personality disorder has
(32:31):
genuinely changed or they are faking it? And the thing
is we don't like, we don't really until moments of
like vulnerability, or until moments of outrage when somebody is
pushed really, really far. I guess that's the point where
we can tell, and those situations are often so rare
for a narcissist to be in. So as we wrap
(32:53):
up this episode, I hope that it has given you
more of a psychological insight into the different ways that narcissism,
narcissistic traits, narcissistic personality disorder shows up in our society.
It is not as straightforward as TikTok or social media
(33:14):
or the Internet might make it seem, and I think
that's really important to acknowledge for people who have genuinely
endured really terrible behaviors and really terrible manipulation from people
who kind of blur the lines and who don't outright
look like narcissists, don't outright have a diagnosis, but still
(33:34):
have done terrible things, and also for I also think
hopefully it's given you some clarity around why it's important
to use a more specific label for people's behavior rather
than just jumping to the narcissistic conclusion. People with true
narcissistic personality disorder are quite rare in society, and often
(33:55):
actually they are very hard to identify because of how
intense their condition is and how great they are at
manipulating us. So I think, and I hope it's just
giving you something to think about. You know, what is
a narcissist? When does somebody deserve that label? Should I
be using that label as often as I as I
(34:16):
do or as I want to? And what are kind
of the alternatives. Thank you as always for tuning into
this episode. Thank you to our researcher Libby Colbert for
her help on this episode as well, and for looking
through all of those meta analysis for such interesting data.
Make sure as always that you are following us wherever
(34:37):
you are listening. Make sure that you are subscribed so
that you can get new episodes when they come out
on Tuesdays and Fridays. Also that you're following us on
Instagram on substack. If you want to read versions of
episodes like this, if you want them delivered into your inbox,
that is the place to go. And until next time,
(34:57):
be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. You will
talk very very soon. Mm hm
Hello everybody, I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the
Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through
the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and
what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back
(00:25):
to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is
so great to have you here, back for another episode.
I think this is the first episode in like five
episodes where I am no longer sick and you guys
don't have to listen to like a disgusting nasal noise
come into your ears. So for that, I am grateful,
and for that I am excited for today's episode. We
(00:49):
have another well, I should say, I have another mini
episode for you today. If you are not familiar with
our many episodes, they're basically kind of smaller, bite sized
episodes where we break down a certain phrase, a certain
psychological concept that gets thrown around a lot online, in tiktoks,
(01:11):
in dating discourse, in group chats, and essentially we dissect
what it actually means according to the psychology rather than
according to the pop culture. And today we are tackling,
let's be honest, the most requested, the most weaponized and
probably the most misunderstood term and label of them all.
(01:36):
We are talking about narcissism. I'm not gonna waste any
time today because we have so much to talk about.
But narcissism is such a fascinating term when you scratch
even below a tiny inch below the surface. And it's
also such an ancient term, which I think a lot
of people might not know. Probably maybe no given its
(01:58):
modern day popularities. So you may have heard of the
Greek myth of Narcissus before. Basically this is where the
term comes from. Narcissus was this incredibly handsome, striking young
man who just really cruelly rejected all of his admirers,
so he didn't want anything to do with any of them,
all these beautiful women. This led to the goddess Nemesis
(02:22):
punishing Narcissus with an all consuming love for nothing but
his own reflection, so much so that the story goes
he drowned staring at his reflection in a pond, like
so consumed by wanting so much more of it. This
is where the term basically gets his name from this man, Narcissus.
(02:44):
It didn't actually become a psychological term until much much
later in the eighteen hundreds. In eighteen ninety eight, a
theorist his name was Havelock Ellis was the first to
use the narcissus myth to describe a particular kind of
client or person. He was seeing people who were basically
(03:08):
just obsessed with themselves, and for him, they were really
obsessed with themselves, like sexually, like they truly thought that
they were the hottest thing out. They were really consumed
by themselves, and he was seeing this pattern of individual
He also knew the story that is where narcissism originally
got its label and from their psychoanalysts like Ottorank and
(03:33):
Sigmund Freud expanded on this to say that narcissism was
more of a normal characteristic of someone's personality rather than
something that was exclusively sexual, and it was a spectrum
that we all kind of sat upon. All of us
can be a little bit narcissistic, or all of us
can have quite a low ego that makes us not
(03:55):
narcissistic at all. When it becomes a little bit unbalanced
and skewed, and when somebody has more a bigger, higher dosage,
higher level of narcissism compared to all their other traits
that creates the type of person that we are familiar with,
the one who we would say has a disordered way
(04:16):
of seeing the world and engaging with others because they
are a narcissist. So, in simple terms, narcissism is a
personality trait made up of a cluster of behaviors and
smaller traits like one a heightened sense of self importance,
two entitlement to special treatment, three a strong need for admiration,
(04:38):
and four low empathy and exploitative behavior. More broadly, narcissism
is often described as closely tied to the pursuit of status.
No matter what, there is this drive within this individual
to be impressive, to be the center of attention, to
be kind of socially emotion physically untouchable in some kind
(05:04):
of way. And that's one of the key points I
think gets mixed up pretty often. Narcissism is not just
high self esteem and thinking that you are incredible, because
some people are really incredible. Some people are just really
cool and they're successful and they know that and they
(05:25):
don't actually need to be humble about it. Healthy self
esteem is this, you know, this is what we would
label healthy self esteem. Their basis for their positive for
their positive kind of assumptions about themselves are based in
evidence they are actually an incredible person. But also these
people can accept criticism, and they can bounce back from failure,
(05:49):
and they can bounce back from not being chosen, they
can bounce back from not needing to be the best
at something. Narcissists, on the other hand, yes, may present
as incredibly confident, Yes may be successful, but what's underneath
that is a deep, deep fragility that gives them an
incredibly unhealthy self esteem that is tied to equal parts
(06:14):
their own sense of self importance and then equal parts
the need for everybody else in the room to see
them as important. And this fragility, this fragility, is what
fuels defensiveness, blame, control, contempt for others. They need to
maintain their self image at all costs, because without it,
(06:38):
they are just this very fragile, very weak, very scared individual.
Underneath it all, let's talk about really quickly the distinction
between having narcissistic personality disorder and having something that we
call basically like having trait narcissism. So just a high
level of narcissist attributes because they are quite different. Narcissistic
(07:03):
personality disorder is a very real diagnosis. Somebody can get
this label in their file, and it was first introduced,
as we said, in the eighties. But it's actually not
that common narcissistic personality disorder. I think it has a
prevalence of anywhere between zero point two to zero point
(07:24):
six percent of the population, and that's mainly based on
US population studies. It is actually around fifty to seventy
five percent more common in males than females, but some
people have said that's just because women may be better
at hiding it than men are, because of this social
conditioning to be more humble, even if that's not the
(07:47):
way they truly feel. The key thing that the American
Psychiatric Association highlights, though, is that again, to get to
this point of being like you are disordered, you have
a serious, proper something. It has to be very drastic.
Most people don't get this diagnosis unless you know they've
experienced several marriage breakdowns, they've come to contact with the
(08:13):
court system, they have been an abusive partner. Like It's
quite difficult actually to get that label in most cases
when we encounter somebody who thinks very highly of themselves,
is very desperate to seem successful and admirable. They may
not have a diagnosis, they may not be worthy of
(08:34):
a diagnosis, but they may be high in this thing
that I just mentioned called trait narcissism. Trait narcissism is
not a disorder. It's basically a personality style. It is
a set of tendencies you can kind of score higher
or lower on, and doesn't automatically mean that, again, you
have a disorder. Trait narcissism, the thing that we are
(08:56):
more commonly encountering basically shows up into very very broad forms.
The first is grandiose narcissism. So this is the typical
idea of narcissism that we see. Grandiose narcissism is the
big inflated ego. It's social dominance. It's this larger than
life personality. Sometimes these people can come off as really
(09:18):
charming and really persuasive, but they can also be very
aggressive and very entitled. This is the idea again we
know most often. I'm sure you can think of a
couple of political or cultural examples going on at the moment.
The second distinct form of narcissism is vulnerable narcissism. This
(09:43):
is the person that we don't always notice, but who
is a lot more insidious and sometimes harmful because their
pattern of behaviors doesn't look like arrogance. Really it's about
emotional insecure already and defensiveness. They are easily hurt, they
(10:04):
are easily embarrassed, they are easily threatened, and so what
they end up doing is trying to put you down,
trying to emotionally manipulate their surroundings so that they are
always the victim, so that they always get special treatment,
so that no matter what, they are at the center
(10:26):
of attention. But what it's this interesting thing where the
reason they're at the center of the center of attention
isn't always because of their achievements. Sometimes it's because of
their pain and suffering. Sometimes it's because they're the one
who always has the most dramatic story that they need
to one up everybody else in the room with. This
(10:48):
is vulnerable narcissism. Now here's where it gets even more interesting,
because psychologists have basically realized that just saying grandiose versus
vulnerable trait narcissism, it still doesn't fully explain it. So
more recent models break it down into three core components.
The first component of what makes somebody's narcissistic personality is antagonism,
(11:12):
and this tends to show up in both grandiose and
vulnerable narcissism. Antagonism is that entitlement, that exploitativeness, that desire
to get what you want. It's when there is an
assumption from somebody that the rules don't apply to me.
(11:32):
I can get away with whatever I want to, and
the people around me they're not just people. They are resources,
they are status symbols, they are threats. They are something
that can be manipulated. I can antagonize them, I can
manipulate them into doing what I want them to. Component
(11:58):
two is something called a gentic extraversion, and this is
more commonly and closely linked to grandiose narcissism, basically social dominance, assertiveness, charisma.
This again looks like somebody who needs to be the leader.
They need to be the most impressive, successful person, the
(12:22):
loudest person, the most the smartest person in a very
specific kind of way. And then the final and third
and final component is narcissistic neuroticism. And this is where
I know I'm really drilling home this point. But this
is where vulnerable and grandiose narcissism differ, because somebody with
vulnerable narcissism might not have that extraversion, but what they
(12:45):
will have is this real sensitivity to criticism and almost
this like split. I don't want to say split personality
because that's not what it is, but it does give
that appearance of this person is really nice. They're so innocent,
they're so kind, they're so lovely, they've had such a
(13:05):
hard time, and then when somebody does criticize them, when
they are not the center of attention, they go in
for the kill. They see you now as a threat.
They need to annihilate your character. They become very defensive,
they become angry, they become resentful, they become withdrawn. And
this is why you know, both those types of individuals
(13:30):
have trait narcissism, but they look so different. And I
think that vulnerable narcissism we're talking about is the kind that,
again is so insidious. You maybe can notice it in
the relationship you have with family members or a friend,
where you are having this very different experience to what
(13:51):
other people are having with this person because they haven't
been able to see through this this kind of mask
yet and see what these behaviors and this personality is
pattern of personality really is, which is that this person
needs to be the most important and going about it
the grandiose way maybe hasn't worked for them, So this
(14:11):
is the new way. They're going to do it equally
through emotional manipulation, but through a different kind of emotional manipulation.
So how do you actually spot a real narcissist? I
want to be really careful here. You cannot diagnose narcissistic
personality disorder from the outside. You cannot diagnose it from
(14:34):
one argument, and you definitely can't diagnose it from somebody
just being a little bit frustrating or a little bit egocentric.
We all mess up in public spaces sometimes, we all
have moments of being a little bit grandiose. We all
have moments where we've definitely dominated a conversation or we've
been a little bit selfish. That doesn't necessarily give somebody
(14:56):
a disordered way of thinking, and it doesn't necessarily make
them high in trade narcissism unless it is a continued pattern.
And even then I would be very wary of saying
this person has NPD. I would probably say this person
is high in narcissistic traits. But here are some questions
to ask yourself if you genuinely think somebody is this
(15:18):
and is this kind of force in your life? Number one,
do you think this person actually cares about you or
do they care about what you can do for them?
Do you believe this person sees you as their equal?
Number two? Do they take on board criticism? Well? Very easy?
Number three? Are they always at the center of things
(15:42):
or do they let people tag in to the spotlight?
Number four? Do different rules apply to them compared to
everybody else? And can you see that in their behavior?
Number five? Do they always need to be superior to
(16:02):
be admired or do they always have to be right
even if it costs you your dignity and your reputation
and your well being. Basically, do you believe that you
have a genuine relationship or are you just a pawn?
Let's pause here. Those questions are useful. I also know
(16:23):
what a lot of you guys are thinking, Oh my god,
what if that's me? Am I a narcissist? I can
relate to sometimes not taking criticism well. I can relate
to sometimes wanting the spotlight I like to be right.
Every time I talk about narcissism, I always think that
I'm a narcissist. Always I don't know why. And every
(16:45):
time I make an episode or I mentioned narcissism, I
always get questions and comments from people being like, is
that me? Can you diagnose me? Can you tell me
if I'm one of these people? So I'm going to
give you a little bit of a personal checklist as
well to rule out or rule in maybe you are anarcissist.
(17:06):
You're probably not, but to rule out that you are
probably probably not. Can you apologize without adding but you
made me? Yes or no? When you are criticized, do
you genuinely care about why? Do you genuinely try to
change your behavior or do you just attack and deflect?
(17:31):
Do you treat people as whole humans or just as
an audience? When you feel insecure in a situation at work,
do you try and repair the situation? Do you try
and take time away and examine your insecurity or do
you just try and dominate other people in the space.
(17:53):
Can you be wrong? Can you be wrong? Have you
been wrong in the last little while. It's a great
litmus test. Are you actually interested in other people's lives.
That is the litmus test. Those are the questions that
I always give people or always think of when that
(18:15):
thought comes into my head. I also know, even just
questioning am I a narcissist? Shows me shows you, guys
that you're probably not, because if you were a narcissist,
your ego most likely wouldn't even let you consider that
as a possibility. So it's this funny irony, right, thinking
(18:35):
that you are probably means that you aren't. You are
very much safe here. Okay, let's take a short break
because after this we need to zoom out and talk
about why this word has exploded culturally and whether we
are actually becoming more narcissistic as a society. To stay
with us, so we are obviously hearing the term narcissism
(19:01):
a whole lot more. Is that because narcissism is actually
increasing in society, or just because it's become a bit
of a phenomena, because it's just become a source of fascination.
The thing is, researchers aren't really that short. Because society
(19:22):
has become more individualistic, it has become more narcissist friendly
with the rise of social media. Is that just meaning
that narcissistic voices or narcissistic individuals they are getting more
of a spotlight, or is the underlying prevalence actually increasing.
So in two thousand and eight, researchers from San Diego
(19:44):
State University they published their decades long findings on this
very question. They had a sample of over sixteen thousand
people that they basically looked at between the years of
nineteen seventy nine and two thousand and six. They wanted
to see across these quick my math thirty years. Let's say,
(20:06):
across these thirty years, are we seeing an increase or
is it something else at play? That's a lot of people.
And what they found was that there was a thirty
percent increase in narcissistic traits based on the earlier year's average.
So every year they were seeing a slight thirty percent uptick.
(20:29):
Now you have to remember that's not thirty percent on
like already half of this population had narcissism or had
high narcissistic traits. This was like a thirty percent uptick
on like zero point two, and then on zero point five,
and then on one percent, and then on two percent.
So it still was quite minor. But when you hear
(20:51):
thirty percent, you really your eyes kind of go wide
of like, oh my god, does that really mean like
one in three people around me are high and in narcissism. No,
not necessarily. That is just one finding, and it definitely
gets more complicated as to whether narcissism is just more
visible or more prevalent. A more recent twenty twenty four
large scale meta analysis challenged this idea that we have
(21:16):
a narcissism epidemic. Researchers they pulled results from over a
thousand papers looking at narcissism scores using that same measure
they used in the San Diego study, and they looked
at it globally from a little bit of a longer
period nineteen eighty two to twenty twenty three. And what
was important about the study is that it also included,
(21:38):
you know, the twenty tens and the early twenty twenties
where social media really blew up. They actually found that
narcissistic traits were pretty stable in the eighties and nineties.
They then actually decreased in the two thousands and in
more recent decades, which completely contrast the previous study. Here
(22:02):
is my take that nobody asked for, but I'm going
to give it to you in the spirit of self
centeredness and narcissism. I just think that our culture has
made narcissism and the visibility of narcissism rise to the surface.
It's not actually increased it. The genuine level of true
narcissism and people who truly have narcissistic personality disorder is
(22:26):
pretty stable. They're definitely still out there. It's just given
us much more visibility of people who may have higher
rates of this trait, especially because those kinds of people
who do like attention and who do like being the center,
and who do have a strong ego, they thrive in
(22:46):
online spaces. They really do like being not being a narcissist.
Having high narcissistic traits would make social media a lot
easier for you. I think it would also make it
a lot harder for you as well, well, because obviously
you get to a certain level of fame and you
are going to get criticism, and that's when we see
people get really reactive and very angry. That's like a
(23:09):
very big sign. But you know, we have built this
world where it's easier than ever to manage your self
worth externally through metrics through visibility, through likes, through follower account,
through you know, a curated identity, and that self presentation
is rewarded. Now, again let's be careful here. Wanting attention,
wanting to blow up online, wanting to post more content,
(23:32):
liking yourself does not make you a narcissist. There are
people out there who are truly very manipulative and do
not want to change, and who cause a whole lot
of pain. So we have to be really careful with
over using this term. If everyone is a narcissist, if
it continues to be this casual phrase, then the word
(23:56):
stops holding as much power and needing as much attention
in cases where someone is genuinely problematic, maybe even dangerous.
I think the other issue with that overuse is that
it can invalidate people who have lived through a genuine
pattern of narcissistic abuse or narcissistic control that and they
(24:18):
just want to be taken seriously. They just want people
to really see the pattern that they have gone through
without people assuming that they're just being dramatic or they're
just latching onto the new buzz hype word. Think about
cases of again narcissistic abuse or workplace harassment. It can
(24:40):
turn this overuse, can turn their experience into just another
Internet buzzword, and it makes it easier again for outsiders
to dismiss it as, oh, it's just another bit of breakup,
or it's you know, everybody's boss is a little bit narcissistic,
everybody's boss is a little bit terrible, rather than recognizing
that for some people it was prolonged manipulation, prolonged character assassination, coersion,
(25:07):
psychological harm, and they are paying the price, whether it
was in a relationship, whether it was with a parent,
with a sibling, with a friend, with a boss, with
a coworker. Because of this, I would honestly say we
need to widen our vocabulary a little bit for why
(25:29):
somebody we may think as a narcissist, why it was
that their behavior is so off or so painful without
just slapping on the easiest label we can find. I
think this also may help us, you know, privately, understand
what we've been through and understand our pain. But you know,
the narcissist label, it may be a shortcut that does
(25:51):
a disservice. What were you actually experiencing? What about this
person was truly you know, difficult to endure? Were they manipulated?
Were they domineering? Did they never let you speak? Did
they never let you control the friendship or control the relationship?
Did they never ask you how your day was? Did
they never consider your life? Did they make you something
(26:14):
to manipulate to make others like them? Were they hostile, cruel, unthinking, dismissive? Again,
why did that vocabulary? I think it's actually a very
healing thing to not just use that label but actually
be able to articulate why someone's behavior is harmful, not
(26:38):
just for you, but for them as well, so that
if they aren't actually a narcissist, they can change and
they can identify, hopefully or have some self awareness as
to what exactly you were bothered by, rather than just
hearing you call them a narcissist and being like, well,
that person doesn't know what they're talking about. The more specific,
(26:58):
I think, the more power. Let's circle back to that
thing I said that I've kind of just completely glazed over.
Can true narcissists change? That is our final question of
the day. If you just looked online, the general consensus
would be no. And I get why that idea is
(27:19):
really popular. If you've been hurt by somebody who repeatedly
denies your reality, who has twisted blame back onto you,
who has treated your feelings like an inconvenience. The idea
that they're incapable of change is really comforting because it
makes the chaos make sense right, and it makes the
outcome feel inevitable, not personal. The sad reality is that
(27:43):
the truth is more nuanced people with narcissistic personality disorder
or narcissistic traits. There is evidence they can change, or
that they can give the appearance of change, as some
people would speculate. It doesn't make it easy. The first
thing to understand is that narcissistic behaviors often function like
(28:03):
a protective system. And this isn't to say you have
to have empathy for this person who has hurt you.
You have to understand why they are the way they are.
But you know these aren't just random bad habits. These
are patterns of self protection, which is why they are
so stubborn, because you're not just asking somebody to stop
(28:25):
being arrogant. You are asking them to tolerate emotions that
their ego and their self finds unbearable, things like shame, inadequacy,
a sense of worthlessness, vulnerability. So that is why forcing
change or even asking a narcissist to change does seem
(28:47):
so impossible because it requires two things. Number one being
insight that they actually have to see that there is
a problem with their behavior and acknowledge that they have
hurt people. That's difficult for anybody to admit, but especially
hard when your identity is built around being right and
being special and being untouchable. The other thing they need
(29:09):
is motivation. You know, many people with more entrenched narcissistic patents,
they don't seek help because they don't actually experience themselves
as a problem. So yes, they may be able to
look back and see this pattern of broken relationships and
this pattern of people being very angry with them, but
(29:29):
they don't have the motivation to change because on another level,
they're very successful. They're making a ton of money, they
are a leader, they believe they have respect, so this
trait is also helping them. Often, what therapists will find
when they do encounter the rare individual with narcissistic personality
(29:52):
disorder in a clinical setting is that often it's somebody
else dragging them to the table. A relationship is going
to end. This marriage is going to fall apart. You
have done something terrible at work. Your reputation has taken
a huge hit. They're in the prison setting. They are
in a you know, they have committed a crime, in
(30:15):
other words, suffering and the disordered nature of this has
become so undeniable that either through some miracle they have
brought themselves in or a system or a person has
pushed them into a therapy setting. That is how they
end up there. Let's say this, even if this person
is able to change and is able to develop empathy
(30:38):
and a stable sense of self and is able to
see the issue with their behavior, it's not going to
happen quickly, and it may not happen at all, but
there is a chance, there is a small chance. And
it's kind of this thing, this dilemma where it's like,
people who genuinely have narcissistic personality disorder, what are we
meant to do with them in society? You know, hope
(31:00):
that they get what they want, Hope that they are
skillful enough to not hurt people in their manipulation. No, like,
if there is this one percent, let's say, of people
who just operating out there, what do we do with them?
And people have to believe. There has to be the
sense that they can change. There has to be some
(31:22):
kind of optimism for the role of therapy. The thing is,
and what is always going to come up in this discussion,
is with somebody who truly has these traits, do they
change or do they just learn a new way of operating?
Do they just learn a new set of behaviors that
are equally manipulative, which is to fake humility and to
(31:47):
fake self deprecation and to fake empathy as a disguise
for true self awareness, which is that they are aware
they have a problem, or they are least aware that
people don't enjoy their behavior. They want to be liked,
so the manipulation or the I guess their behavior then
(32:10):
tells them that this is the better way to act
in this new situation to continue being liked, which is
to basically fake the behaviors that others want to see
in them. And you know what, how do we know?
How do we ever know that somebody who has been
through therapy for narcissistic traits or narcissistic personality disorder has
(32:31):
genuinely changed or they are faking it? And the thing
is we don't like, we don't really until moments of
like vulnerability, or until moments of outrage when somebody is
pushed really, really far. I guess that's the point where
we can tell, and those situations are often so rare
for a narcissist to be in. So as we wrap
(32:53):
up this episode, I hope that it has given you
more of a psychological insight into the different ways that narcissism,
narcissistic traits, narcissistic personality disorder shows up in our society.
It is not as straightforward as TikTok or social media
(33:14):
or the Internet might make it seem, and I think
that's really important to acknowledge for people who have genuinely
endured really terrible behaviors and really terrible manipulation from people
who kind of blur the lines and who don't outright
look like narcissists, don't outright have a diagnosis, but still
(33:34):
have done terrible things, and also for I also think
hopefully it's given you some clarity around why it's important
to use a more specific label for people's behavior rather
than just jumping to the narcissistic conclusion. People with true
narcissistic personality disorder are quite rare in society, and often
(33:55):
actually they are very hard to identify because of how
intense their condition is and how great they are at
manipulating us. So I think, and I hope it's just
giving you something to think about. You know, what is
a narcissist? When does somebody deserve that label? Should I
be using that label as often as I as I
(34:16):
do or as I want to? And what are kind
of the alternatives. Thank you as always for tuning into
this episode. Thank you to our researcher Libby Colbert for
her help on this episode as well, and for looking
through all of those meta analysis for such interesting data.
Make sure as always that you are following us wherever
(34:37):
you are listening. Make sure that you are subscribed so
that you can get new episodes when they come out
on Tuesdays and Fridays. Also that you're following us on
Instagram on substack. If you want to read versions of
episodes like this, if you want them delivered into your inbox,
that is the place to go. And until next time,
(34:57):
be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. You will
talk very very soon. Mm hm
Host
Jemma Sbeghen
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Saskia Inwood woke up one morning, knowing her life would never be the same. The night before, she learned the unimaginable – that the husband she knew in the light of day was a different person after dark. This season unpacks Saskia’s discovery of her husband’s secret life and her fight to bring him to justice. Along the way, we expose a crime that is just coming to light. This is also a story about the myth of the “perfect victim:” who gets believed, who gets doubted, and why. We follow Saskia as she works to reclaim her body, her voice, and her life. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com