Child's Play with Andrew Garfield & Harris Dickinson

Topics covered include:

Harris’s longing to be 40, finding security in insecurity, eternal things, having an allergic response to fame, unsolicited wisdom from Tom Cruise, giving bite-sized chunks of yourself, murky waters, I Heart Huckabees healing a broken heart, wounded bits, embracing scary material, matching Florence’s courage in We Live in Time, soothing the nervous system, avoiding cliché, interrogating performance and desire in Babygirl, Andrew’s memories of shooting the iconic laptop smashing scene in The Social Network with Fincher, Ben Affleck’s actor’s commentary on Armageddon, having trust problems with directors, breaking bones skating and surfing, playing with Tech Decks at home, Harris’s childhood sketch comedy YouTube show, being a chubby boi, basketball as poetry, and Andrew honoring his own grief through We Live in Time.

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Hey, and welcome back to the A 24 podcast.
Andrew Garfield has been on a whirlwind press tour for our
latest movie, We Live In Time, and we couldn't let him go
without an appearance on the pod.
For today's episode, we brought Andrew together with fellow
Brit, an A24 leading man Harris Dickinson, who stars alongside
Nicole Kidman in Baby Girl This Christmas.
We hope you enjoy the conversation and make sure to

(00:26):
catch We Live In Time now playing in theatres nationwide.
I'm Andrew Garfield. I'm Harris Dickinson.
And this is. The Ace 24 podcast.
So. Hello.
So the problem is we've already begun talking.
So we were talking about surfing, we were talking about

(00:47):
age and how you how you wish that you've just been longing to
be 40. And then we were talking about
press and we were talking about being publicly facing people in
some way and the trickiness of that.
And we were talking about jet lag and we were talking about
Los Angeles. Not going to disclose exactly
where we were talking about in Los Angeles.

(01:09):
So then what do you reckon? What's the most pertinent
pressing topic for you in this? Moment maybe age because I'm
intrigued to hear from you as well about why you made a face
when you when you disclosed yourage, it was a.
For the record, the context of that, I'd asked Harris how old
he was and he said 28. And I think in that moment, I

(01:32):
thought, I remember that. I remember 28 as if it was now.
And then when you asked me, I was like, I'm not 28 anymore.
So I think that's, I think that's what the face was in.
The face was fucking 41. But it's nice, you know,
because. Go on, because you you have an
idealisation I do. And I think I always have
because correct me if I'm wrong,but don't you think as you get

(01:53):
older there's a sense of security with yourself?
And I always feel so unstable with AS.
Or maybe it's getting easier now, but like, know yourself
better maybe right is that? You like, This is why we're
here, right? You're going to reassure me that
it gets better? Yeah.
No, I think. Yeah, I think so.
I I think so. I hope so.

(02:14):
Yeah. No, definitely.
But it. But it's kind of the more, you
know, the less, you know, kind of thing.
I thought I knew a lot more whenI was younger.
And now I realize how little I know, how little I knew.
And as my my consciousness expands and cracks open and my
heart breaks more and opens up more and real.
I just realized that how. Oh, yeah.
No, it's not job to know actually.

(02:36):
And I think there is some weird security in the insecurity.
I kind of have had to figure outhow to stand still within the
uncertainty of life because I think a lot of people say the
world has always been so uncertain and the world has
always been so fucked up. And, but I, I do feel like we're
in a particularly difficult darktime where where meaning and

(03:01):
purpose and community and eternal things, the eternal
things that actually are worth pursuing are far less valued and
far less available. And I think about even between
when I was your age and and now,I think it was probably a lot
easier for me as a late 20s person to be in the world.

(03:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think like now it's even.
It's even harder in a way, I imagine.
Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to sit
here and pretend it's like really difficult for me.
I'm more just mean like navigating your own sense of
self like you say, particularly in our world, which was one of
the other subjects that came up is public facing and I don't

(03:43):
have to deal with it as much as you presumably.
You know, you've had a wild trajectory and have been in this
world a minute longer than me and have I probably had to
navigate more. So I'm kind of just
understanding what, what it is to to do this and to try and
hold on to something amongst it all.

(04:05):
But. Like hold on to your sense of
deep self, like who you are within a bunch of people and
culture and things telling you how to be or pulling you in
different directions. Yeah.
But then I also think about the age thing.
And I'm like, OK, well, each year that goes by understanding

(04:27):
even on a very basic level, my own behaviour or my own triggers
or my own, you know, insecurities or whatever.
And in turn, it becomes easier to deal with those.
And that changes the way you move through the world, I think.
And so yeah, there's always beenthis weird like, can't wait till

(04:48):
I'm 21, can't wait till I'm 30, can't wait till I'm 40.
But it's not because I'm like wishing away my.
Your life. My life, it's more like a Oh
yeah, maybe then I'll be like, I'll be in a really like settled
place and I'll be, I'll be chilling.
Oh. I get it.
It's like trying to get to a place where you can really smell

(05:08):
the roses, kind of enjoy moving,and like not be consumed by
things that you know. And not be in my head and just
be like really present. And not missing out on.
So why not just do that? I know I I'm, I'm working on it,
Andrew, I'm working. No, I know.
But it's not easy. It's really it's, it's not.
When I was 20, I responded to myfirst brush with being an A

(05:30):
person that suddenly had a face that people thought they knew.
I remember I was talking about this with someone yesterday.
I was talking about with Luca, actually Luca Guadagnino.
I saw Luca yesterday because we just made a film together and we
were talking about how to navigate, you know, because he
obviously he works with lots of young, young actors as well,
who, you know, he's seen lots ofdifferent versions of that.

(05:52):
I think I was like, you know, what with all the Spider Man
stuff, I, I kind of had this allergic response.
I was like, I'm not, I know I'm not ready for this in a way.
I know I'm not ready for this level of scrutiny.
So I'm going to grow a really horrible beard and I'm gonna
wear really fucked up clothes. Yeah.
And I'm gonna you. Rejected it.
I'm gonna chase down paparazzi and try and talk to them.

(06:16):
What's the meaning of life I. Was just like what?
What are you like what? Why why did?
Why are you doing this Is. That how you responded.
Yeah, 28. It was like 262728 because I
think I was really scared. I think I was really like, I
don't want to lose the thing that matters, which is the self,
but it's so hard not to sound like a complete wanker when you
talk about. Of course, of course.
But from the outside looking in like not to blow smoke, you

(06:39):
really do seem like you've managed to evade and retain that
sense of self. So kudos to you, man, because
it's not easy. You know, I met, I met Tom
Cruise recently and he gave me like.
What did he? Yeah, what do you?
Think he gave me like 20 minutesof just like wisdom.
I didn't really ask for it, but I was, I was really grateful for
it. But I was really, I was really

(07:01):
grateful for it because he obviously sensed that I was like
going through a bit of of a moment of trying to understand a
certain way. And yeah, man, he's.
Have you met him? Yeah, first movie I did was with
him. Which one?
It's called Lions for Lambs. Oh wow, it was him and Robert
your first. Film was with Tom.
Graham and Robert Redford and Meryl Streep when I was 23.

(07:22):
It's crazy. It was crazy.
But I but like, I, I really 23, I really like him.
I really enjoyed him and I and Ididn't have any scene.
All my scenes were with Redford.But I met Tom on the press tour
afterwards and he was just nothing but kind and lovely and
funny and but yeah, but what didhe?
What was he? He was talking about press
because he was he was about to do another mission film or

(07:44):
something and he was talking about the press that they do for
that and the training that he gives to all of his actors.
He was just trying to say about like retaining a sense of
control over certain situations and having fun and, and being
concise with messaging. But also I'm bad at that.
I just want to have a normal conversation.
So I'm like, I'm the worst for it.

(08:06):
You know, I'll just go on and onand I'm like, well, let's just
have a real chat. And then they're like.
We've got 5 minutes, you've got to give me some amazing sound
bites and be on with your day like.
I had a therapist that told me Iwas had this conversation with
and he was like, here's the thing, like because I, I
absolutely come from the same school of thought as you.

(08:27):
I'm just like, well, what are wedoing if we're not actually?
Having a real conversation. Like 2 human beings.
And if I can offer something that I remember being a young
person looking at like magazine profiles of actors or musicians
or artists or whatever and beinglike so hungry for someone to
say something that made me feel seen.
And I think about that every time I go and do anything.

(08:49):
But I learned the hard way. And I'm sure you're learning as
well, which is like, there's only so much space emotion wise,
consciousness wise in the current culture in like how
media is consumed. So if we give our full selves,
it's, it's like we can be cannibalized.
So I spoke to my, my therapist about it at the time, like years

(09:11):
ago, whatever. And he was like, you know, you
just got to give little little bite size chunks, like not sound
bites, like bite give, give yourself, but retain yourself
simultaneously. Like it's not welcome.
All of yourself is not welcome in certain publications in
certain, you know, TMZ are not going to give you a fair fucking

(09:32):
shot at like trying to do some healing.
Yeah, through through what you're chatting about.
Like it's just not. It's not the platform.
It's like going to the hardware store for eggs.
It's like you're not going to find eggs in the, in the hammer
aisle. And at the same time, I, I
understand because it's like we want to change these spaces.
Actually, like, I think that it's like there's a longing for
real, real conversation, real healing, real vulnerability,

(09:55):
real honesty. And when we can actually go
there, you can feel the effect. Like, we'll do this.
And then like some other publication will take a little
piece and be like Andrew Garfield's losing his mind and
therapy. It's like doesn't like that's
the, that's the thing. But So what did what did Tom
say? His whole thing is like, look,
there's messaging, there's the fun element and then there's the
relaxation of it. And I think that's what I've

(10:17):
taken away is, is the relaxationof it.
The the relaxation of it. Sorry, like the stakes feel
higher than they actually are ultimately.
Like we're not saving lives. We're not, you know, moving
mountains with what we do. It's it's obviously storytelling
and the arts is incredibly important and culturally, you
know, pushes things and changes conversations but and inspires

(10:41):
and distracts. But we also have to understand
what we're doing in comparison to other people's, like work,
you know, but also with him, so many people, you know, I've
worked, you know, when you work in the studios and stuff in
London or, or in the States or whatever.
And so many of the crew speak really highly of him, which I
think is always a good sign. Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
They love him. Yeah.
Wait, so you did you did that film with him when you were 23?

(11:02):
So that I'm. Sorry, 2324 I think.
Yeah, that was your first job. My first movie. 1st movie I.
Was doing theatre before that right?
I'm going to disagree with you on something.
Go on, I dare you. Well, what you said about I, I
agree with you by also like. We're not saving lives.
Well, yeah, I mean, yeah. Like, I think about the amount

(11:27):
of times my life has been saved by a piece of music or by, you
know, a play or by. Really.
Yeah, dude, of course, like justas much as my brother's a lung
doctor in at the at a Hospital in London and.
That's not, you know, it's not this.
What we're doing right now and what he's doing right now.
You know arguably is but like and we now we're in murky water

(11:52):
Andrew that's. What we want to be.
That's where we want to be swimming around in the dirt.
But, like, I mean, me and him talk about this a lot.
Look at what happens when a government cuts arts funding.
Yeah. The culture gets sick.
It gets even sicker than it already is.
Yeah. And like, I mean that like,
sick, like soul sick. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And of course, I'm. You know, we don't.
We don't literally physically save lives, but I've, I've

(12:15):
definitely had like dark times in my life, especially when I
was a teenager or like early 20sor whatever.
And like, I remember like, goingthrough my first breakup, my
first like really big heartbreak, and I went and saw
David O Russell's I Heart Huckabees.
I've never seen that. OK, well, I've never.
Seen that? Yeah.
Well, now you. Yeah.
Oh yeah. But it's but it's one of those
films that you wouldn't expect was going to like stitch up a

(12:38):
broken heart. And at the same time, I'm with
you. What about it made you the film?
Yeah. What was it?
That or just as an experience, Why I?
Want you to see it. I want you to watch the film
because it's so like existential.
It's philosophical, it's very funny, it's absurd.
It made me realize that I'm I was in being an indulgent fuck
basically, and that everyone goes through the same

(13:00):
experience. It was a collective kind of like
it was like tying me to something universal, which is
heartbreakers. What the cost of being alive
like that's one of the costs. I'm going to talk about baby
girl. Is that right?
Oh, sure. Anyway, so we haven't talked
about it. I absolutely love it and I love
you in it. Genuinely.

(13:21):
I think it was so fucking brilliant, and you're doing
something that's really quite mysterious, really sensitive and
nuanced. How do you feel about
compliments? How do you?
I'm not very good at them, but is anyone and maybe some people
are great, might be are you? It depends.
It depends. I, I I'm working on that, just
absorbing. Do you know what I think?

(13:41):
If I trust and respect the person's opinion, then I'm I can
really absorb it and be gratefulfor it.
But yeah, if it's just like. You're a mate.
Oh no, you know that that kind of thing.
It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but thank you.
No, man, it's, it's, it's reallylike properly beautiful, tender,

(14:02):
vulnerable, powerful, funny work.
And like, I watched that film and I'm like, this is an
important film. That feels like an important
film to me. It feels like a a film about
liberation, talking about self ownership, a film about the
integration of the parts of us that we've shamed or have been
shamed by the culture. And it feels like an exploration

(14:25):
of what it is to be a human being, an exploration of love,
an exploration of lust of of sexuality.
And it feels like it's kind of shedding light on certain parts
of our psyches and our consciousness that if those
parts are kept in the shadows, they will become something quite
dangerous. So there is healing in it.
I do think it's kind of life saving work.

(14:45):
Not to that that you'll probablylike you're blowing smoke now
and fuck you. But like I, I do feel that way
of course in the conversation about it.
I'm sure you get to have a lot of fun by by keeping it light, I
imagine. Yeah, I, I guess like on the
surface it could, it could look anything other than deep and
profound, like all the things you say.
But I really, I, I, I believe those things too.

(15:06):
I think Helena has done such a beautiful job with it.
And it is about liberation, likeyou say.
And it is so much about what happens if you don't allow
yourself to be liberated properly.
And it's like essentially two people finding solace in their
own sort of insecurity as well and figuring out how to.
Yeah, wounded bits. Yeah, wounded bits, and how to

(15:27):
play with that and how to get through that together.
It's scary doing that kind of material, man, don't you think?
Like I. Was watching that.
I was like, yeah, that's that's real.
It's like, and and when you saidthat, it made me think about how
my some of my favorite moments were.
I think you even say it at one point, or it's like, no, we'd
like two kids playing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(15:48):
It's like, oh fuck, man. That's like, and like the kind
of like you trying, you guys trying not to laugh at the
beginning of like entering like the playpen.
And it's like it, it is like twokids playing and it's like two
kids going down into their own woundedness and trying to figure
out making it beautiful or making it like, OK, or it's

(16:08):
like, like taking the shame and like turning it into like
something that is actually like allowed and healing through
that. Which also allowed me to, to
show the embarrassment of performance as well, which is,
which is like, because it's, so it's about performance in a way.
It's about, you know, performative sex, It's about
performative role play. It's about, you know, desire and

(16:32):
how we succumb to someone else who's desire and wishes and all
of that. And so there's parts of it where
he's embarrassed. And so am I, you know, and, and,
and that is helpful because you can, you can live in your
embarrassment. And, and it's embarrassing to,
to act in front of people. It's embarrassing to.

(16:54):
It's awful. This is embarrassing.
It's. Embarrassing but then imagine,
imagine adding like a fake circumstance onto it and A and a
pretend person. It's a whole other thing.
I'll I'll I'll put it back onto you because I want to talk about
your film as well, which broke me and and my partner when we
watched it. It was really moving and you and
Florence just done such beautiful work in that and it

(17:14):
and it and it blew us away, honestly.
But I so much of that was was about vulnerability and and
about tragedy, but also levity. And I don't know how you managed
to navigate the dance between the two, but you did it so well.
And maybe that was your directortoo.
But you, you guys really, because it's hard with a film

(17:36):
that starts out already knowing the sort of end, yeah, drama, I
guess, or the end result. And you managed to, you guys
managed to really weave in this beautiful, like, playfulness as
well. Thanks, man.
And genuine love and genuine, like, fun with each other

(17:57):
despite the the darkness. So how did you do that?
And do you find that embarrassing to be so
vulnerable? But same, same as you, like one
of us will answer a question at some point, but I felt the same
with you and Nicole, like, like the love was so palpable between
you both. Like when she's like, I don't
want you to be your mind, your mind.
I don't want you to be with me. Like it was so full of desire

(18:21):
and I don't know, and genuine love.
And at the end when you're with Antonio Banderas and you're just
kind of head to head, like you were in the club with whatever
the guy was you were dancing in that nightclub scene.
It was like so many wonderful. Like, anyway, I will answer, try
and answer your question. I don't know.
I feel like I read it and I was like, it's really well written.

(18:43):
And now it's dependent on if, ifthe two people in it get along
or really, and if they want to work in a similar way and if
they can kind of like match eachother's courage.
I, I mean, I knew Florence was really talented.
Do you know Florence? Yeah, a little bit, yeah.
You hadn't worked with her, justjust met her and.
I and I hadn't met her either. Oh.
You hadn't met her. I just seen her work.

(19:05):
I'd just seen Lady Macbeth, Midsommar and Little Women and
all the rest. And I thought she's brilliant,
but you know, you just don't know.
And then we had like a Zoom calland that was that.
And then we just discovered thatwe did want the same things.
We wanted to travel as deeply aspossible and we wanted to have
as much fun as possible and we wanted.
And, you know, she's very confident in her own skin in a

(19:27):
lot of ways and very, I don't know, in her body, in her
feeling in her. And I think like, but this, this
would have been the same with any actor I was working with.
Like, my only intention was like, create a space where she
feels really safe. And then and, and I hope that
she creates, helps create a space.
Well, I've got to create a spacefor myself to feel safe first
and foremost. I can't depend on anyone else

(19:48):
doing that because I I'm sure you've been on jobs where the
where you don't feel safe to offer.
Your full self. And then you've got to figure
out a way of still delivering and like soothing the nervous
system enough to be able to go soothing.
The nervous system, I like that.Yeah, like, you know, it's a
good doubt because. It really is like it's not even
if you try and be quote UN quotefine, right, or act normal,

(20:11):
there's something scientific going on.
Yeah, that's it's like pre verbal.
It's like some pre verbal like biological response or maybe
even epigenetic. Who the fuck knows?
If you're uncomfortable or stressed.
Or yeah, whatever it's like. And I think like a, a director
or and fellow actors and you know, whoever is running the
show, you want to create an environment where everyone has

(20:33):
the potential to feel really safe and everyone has the
potential there and to play really like, like kids.
I don't know. For me, I think what one of the
reasons why I love doing what wedo is it it's a kind of
opportunity to go back into thatvery pure space and offer
something very creatively pure from the there that purity of

(20:53):
playing as as children really. And and again, it's what is so
evident and what you and Nicole created and what your director
created as well. Yeah, yeah.
So that was the intention with. And I and I knew I was the, the
slightly senior member of that cast.
And I was like, OK, I've got a. Being 4140. 141 years old, 41
years old, never forget. And so I knew I needed to set

(21:16):
the tone with that. And, and Florence just met me
there and the humour I think came, the writing was just
really, really good. And I think we're, I think
British, British people are pretty good at gallows humour.
And we're, we're just good at undercutting the seriousness of,
of life and the, the, the, the kind of torture of life.
And, and John as well, He's an Irish kind of poetic soul.

(21:38):
The, our director. And like, so I was always trying
to find the little like line of gold and the crack of, you know,
the, the heartache of a of a moment or anything like that.
Had you played a dad before? Had you done?
That, yeah, I had. I'd played a young dad in a film
called 99 Home. Oh, yeah, of course, Yeah, yeah,
of course. But yeah, a very young dad.

(21:59):
So this this felt quite different.
That scene where you're trying to, I won't spoil it, but when
you're trying to like talk to her about certain issues.
And Oh yeah, yeah. It's like, and then you just
snap it away. To her it's like, go away, piss
off. Just piss.
Off that must yeah. I can't even imagine.
That but I was going to ask you the same thing about how you you

(22:23):
and Nicole created and and your director created the places you
guys have to go to even more, you know, vulnerable in a way,
like more kind of taboo and naked and yeah.
I think we just had a good, goodenergy together, a good bond.
I think we got along very well. I think we felt comfortable in

(22:43):
each other's presence, you know,and that that happened early on.
We had a really good intimacy coordinator, Lizzie Talbot, who
had worked with before, and Helena as well.
You know, Helena comes from a theatre background and really,
really playful, you know, wantedto mess up the order of things a
little bit. And I think Nicole LED that as

(23:05):
well. Like she is incredibly brave as
a performer and unashamed to just go anywhere.
And that really once you someoneallows other people to see that
or sets the tone of that, then Ithink the rest of it was super
easy. I think the main thing was

(23:26):
trying not to be cliche in a genre that has been done in many
different ways. For you within that character
you mean. Yeah, for me, but also the
material and Helena obviously, you know, had her writing in
place in the script was was was beautiful and nuanced.
And but you still have a common understanding or short circuit

(23:50):
to how something should be done or said.
And you have to constantly thinkabout what it is to break those
things. Because even if you're thinking
differently or exploring new terrain, you still have the
archetypical landscape in your mind.
I feel I do at least even even from from everything we've been

(24:14):
taught about sex and, you know, domination and relationships.
So I think it was best start andtalking about it and trying to,
you know, navigate that in a waythat felt new.
But yeah, I find that stuff really, really vulnerable, like
tapping into something genuine and like loving.

(24:34):
I find really like, I get reallyanxious about it.
Like I come away from it feelinglike like almost like a panic
attack level of like. You mean like revealing that on
camera or just in life? Yeah.
Just in life, just on camera. Sorry.
Just on. Just in scenes.
And yeah, yeah. Oh, interesting.
I'm a very open book in real life.
I'm very loving and I'm, I thinkI allow myself to be loved,

(24:57):
whatever, but I'm in scenes whenit with sex and vulnerability
and I don't know why. It just gets me, man.
I'm like, it's difficult. It's difficult.
Yeah, yeah. That's so interesting.
Yeah, I don't know what it is. But that sounds a bit if it's,
if you're cool with it in life, then it's like maybe you're just
like just want to. I don't want to sell this I.

(25:18):
Don't want to sell this. Yeah, right, right.
Right, right. That sounds kind of healthy.
That's kind of healthy. Yeah.
Yeah, maybe. That doesn't sound terrible.
Wait, so when? When?
Because we met at a screening ofFinch's last movie.
Oh, that's right. Yeah, Yeah.
Yeah. Were you doing the film then, or
were you because you were with Florence I?
Forget, I think we I think we had just finished.
You just finished. Yeah, we had just finished.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You stay in touch with him then,

(25:38):
obviously. David.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I love him.
I mean, that film you guys did was like a such a Mon.
I mean, is such a monumental sort of moment in cinema.
I've watched it so many times and that, I mean, I'm sure you'd
get asked about it all the time,but that clip of or the scene of
you smashing and the the keyboard and it's just the most

(26:01):
incredible monologue. Yeah, it's great.
It's so good. How many times did you do that?
I Remember Me and Jesse watchingthe premiere.
I think we're, I figure I think we're in New York and the New
York Film Festival. We were, I was like 26, I think.
And we were both just like looking at each other like, it's
bad, right? It's bad.
We're like, this is a bad movie and we're bad in it, right?

(26:22):
And we were both like, yeah, yeah, it's bad, we're bad, it's
bad, it's terrible. And everyone was.
Like reassured. Yeah, we were just trying to
like get there before anyone else got there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we had no concept that it was
going to be a film that that people would reference.
He'd made great films before. David Yeah, yeah, of course.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was more just like us.
We, we. We.

(26:43):
We ruined it. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah,
yeah yeah and. We just couldn't see past our
own bullshit, really. So yeah.
So we come to it honestly. But yeah.
But the making of it was fuckinggreat.
We had so much fun. Yeah, it was just.
Yeah. It was bliss.
It was bliss. I've.
Watched all of the making. Oh, really?
Yeah, all of it. I I loved making.

(27:03):
Me too. They don't really do that
anymore and they don't have likedirectors comment.
I think it's like a directors and actors commentary as well.
You can sometimes find it on theBlu rays, Yeah, but like you can
get the yeah, Blu-ray ones. On, like, actual media, yeah.
You should push to do it on. Everything.
Yeah, I love I I especially lovedirectors and actors like Ben
Affleck doing actors commentary on like, what was the film he

(27:25):
did? Was it Armageddon or something?
It's absolutely. He's just like I was at
Armageddon or something, something.
I forget what it was. He's just, it's a Michael Bay
film and he's just absolutely savaging the thing.
One that he, one that he acted. Yeah, he's like undercutting all
of like the logic of like I. Like that?
Was it Armageddon? Yeah, I think it was.
Yeah, I think it was Armageddon.But it's so fucking funny.
And he's just like, and he's like, yeah, we need miners to go

(27:48):
to space. And like, yeah, only miners can
figure out how to fucking figurethis out.
Like, whatever it was. That's great.
And it is really, really funny. So yeah, bring back directors
and actors. Commentary is is the vote.
Scorsese's done a lot, hasn't he?
He always. Yeah, yeah, yeah, dude, I.
Forgot you worked with him as well, yeah.
But but with with David on that day, we shot, I forget the

(28:10):
amount of takes we did on that particular setup, but but he was
very cool. He started on my coverage.
Really. Yeah, he was like, Andrew's
going to get tired, so like let's he's going to lose his
voice and blah, blah, blah. And we didn't know how the scene
was going to be played. You know, he was very open.
He was he would get very particular with certain things

(28:30):
and certain scenes, but the onlyscene he got that way with me
was in the scene that that's intercut with where me and Jesse
are in our litigation across thetable.
When they're asking you how muchwere your shares diluted, how
much were theirs, how much the blah, blah, blah.
I just he was like, I don't needa blink and I and I just want
you to stay really still. I just want you to stare Jesse
in the eye and just like be completely fucking like

(28:52):
piercing. I don't, I want no acting.
I want no nothing. I just want you to be fucking
like simple in there. Be very, very still.
But otherwise he would kind of let me free form a bit and that
he was just waiting to see what how I wanted to play it.
Oh, no, that I tell a lie. I had like on on the walk up
from the finally realizing what happened to like looking outside

(29:13):
and seeing him and like walking.He was like, I have a track set
up and I was like, but I want I might want to stop here and stop
there. He's like, no, no, no, you're
not stopping. You're just on the fucking move.
You're you're the freight trainers left the station.
I'm like, OK, I'm going to trustthat he was like the track is.
I promise you this shot is goingto be.
The track is it the? Track.
Don't fuck with the track. I love it.
Yeah. Yeah, that's actually, I thought

(29:34):
that. Go here.
It's like, Oh yeah, you want me to build a track that goes like
a Figure 8 around the no, not trackers.
And also trust me, like I'm taking care of you.
It's going to take you like a fucking spear.
You're just, you're a fucking spear right now.
And like, even when Justin says he's wired in, I, I wanted to be
like, I'm sorry. I wanted to stop and say in
rehearsals, I would be like, what's that?

(29:57):
And Deb was like, no, you don't stop.
You don't stop. You don't even like, look at
him. You're getting to that fucking
laptop and you're going to destroy that fucking laptop.
That's it. That's what you can think about.
And it was just like, you know, a director like that, where you
go, we get to surrender. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's. The best, right?
I'll trust. All.
Yeah. Well, it is a little bit like
that Dom sub kind of dynamic. It's like, I think at best

(30:21):
working with the director where you can just completely, yeah,
give yourself over. Yeah, it's a dream.
And access your power, access your vulnerability and know that
you're somehow protected like, but it felt like you guys must
have had to have that on on thisfilm.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm always a little I,
I, I have trust problems with with directors.

(30:43):
I'll, I'll say that, you know, Idon't mind saying that.
And you know, me and Helena have, I've spoken about it a lot
since. And it's, it's normally just to
do with like what you say, like,oh, you're going to take care of
me, you know, am I in, like goodhands with me?
Exactly. Because the worst fear is like,
your thing running away from you.
You know, I'm probably a bit of a control freak and.

(31:04):
I'm the same. In that way.
So yeah, it's taken a while to like, I understand how to do
that. But yeah, Helena's, she's an
actor as well, you know? She right?
She was part of Ivor van Hove's theatre company.
She raised, of course. Yeah, I think that changed it.
And that gave a different dynamic.
But, yeah, sometimes it's not there, even with actors, right?

(31:25):
Sometimes you do something and you don't feel.
No, of course you don't feel thesafety.
And you're like, oh God, like. Oh, it's awful.
What's going to happen now you know?
Yeah. It's really, really awful.
That's what I I and it's like there's nothing.
There's no worse feeling. It's like it, you really do feel
like you're naked in a way that is not safe and not like being
held and protected. Yeah.
Did you feel that on? Like how do you feel with Ruben

(31:46):
on Triangle of Sadness? Reuben's the same.
I think Reuben knows exactly what he wants, similar to maybe
what it sounds like with with David Fincher.
But he does a lot of takes and he has a really strong idea of
how things should go. But he's really open.
And, you know, I think when you love someone's work that much
and you've seen them prove it over and over and over, you can

(32:09):
just surrender to it, I think. And that's, like, so much easier
when you can step into an environment and it's like, you
know, kind of predetermined in away.
As long as you show up and you do your work and you allow
yourself to be directed in the right way, then hopefully it all
goes to plan. But I really liked doing a lot
of takes. I don't know how you feel about

(32:30):
it. I love it, yeah.
I did. I really, really loved it.
And I think particularly with someone like Reuben or David,
you're like, OK, there's method to this madness.
It's not just like, you don't know what the fuck you're doing.
Yeah, well, I remember. I remember like we were
shooting, there's a scene where I, I arrive in Palo Alto like
covered in, in rain and like Justin Timberlake's in the house

(32:53):
or like Sean Parker is in the house that I'm renting for Mark.
And I'm like, what the fuck is going on?
They forgot to pick me up from the airport.
This is like, it was a big like confrontation scene between me
and Justin. And we shot it over the course
of a couple of days. And I remember on my coverage,
we got to like take 19 or 20, something like that.
And I remember like, just like taking a little break and

(33:13):
walking around the outside of the set.
And I overheard David say to hisvideo videographer guy, like who
was like dealing with all the digital takes or whatever.
He was like, okay, first print, take 19.
Please delete takes one through 18 what I was like.
Delete. There's got to be something.
There's got to be like somethingthat's like watchable within

(33:34):
takes 11 to 18. It was brutal.
Delete. Yeah.
Delete. Gone.
Dead. Surely that was performance.
No, I don't think so. Surely.
Maybe he is that smart where he was just probably trying to fuck
with me, but I don't think so. I don't think so.
I think he's just like legit knows what feels right to him.
He knows he's like, oh, that. No, everything in that take was
better than the previous ones. So so more often than not you

(33:57):
you found that the later takes were the ones he used or.
I don't know. I'm not sure, but I, I just kind
of like, I don't know, nothing better than going home and being
like, why? At least I'm not worrying about
having done the scene in a different way.
Yeah, I put everything on the table.
Yeah, exactly. Left it all on the field.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the same with the smashing
of the laptop. I think we did like 2025 takes
of, of that. God, what bliss.

(34:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's just like, and the
writing is, you know, it's the best.
A lot of people would get tired on like there was some, some
actors, I won't say, but yeah, yeah, you know, they, they got
tired of it and it yeah, I was like, yeah, yeah.
Charged by. It we, we were young, you, you
were young when you did. I was your age when I was doing
it. And it was like all of us on
social network. We we were all just these young

(34:41):
kids who were just like eager toplease and eager to play and
work on of script. That was legit brilliant.
I think about Triangle sadness. I think about the opening of
that and how it's like it feels like 3 different films that I
love that film. So it's one of my favorite films
the last like 10 years, I think.Oh man, it really is.
And I think weirdly, particularly my favorite part is

(35:03):
the is your relationship with your partner.
Ya, ya or yeah, the at the beginning, at the beginning.
OK, Yeah. Yeah, and how like it's it felt
like to real. It felt like the conversation
about the check it at dinner at the beginning.
It was just like 2 fucking. It was just like and seeing you

(35:24):
processing going. Oh no, you're gaslighting.
You know exactly what you're doing.
And now I'm doubting that you did the thing that I think I'm
pretty sure you did. You're making me go mad.
Am I mad or are you making me mad or like and that and I'm
also like revealed as cheap and I'm yeah, I don't make as much
fucking money as you, but also like it's like shame on top of
shame on top of rage on top of shame on top of rage on top of

(35:45):
just like wanting honesty and truth and just like, can we just
like. Yeah, be, be together.
Like it was so well studied, like you you like stopping the
elevator? It just felt like I'd had that
conversation like multiple timesin multiple relationships.
I mean, so many people have saidthat so.
Many people, man, it's so good. It's too real.

(36:05):
Yeah. Have you met Ruben?
Did. You.
No, I haven't. I haven't.
No. He's a really he used to make he
used to make ski videos. Oh, and, and I think yeah, and I
think, and I come from like skateboarding a little bit.
So I understand the level of like doing it and doing it and
doing it until you get the trip.Now I stopped a couple years

(36:25):
ago. I.
Just pray for the best mate. Mate, I was breaking bones.
It was like. What have you, broken wrists?
Yeah. Ankle, you know, like districate
things. I just I.
Broke your wrist when I was like15.
Did you? Yeah.
That's why I started surfing. So you surf as well.
I surf now. Yeah, Yeah.
Yeah, have you broke anything surfing yet?
My toe. My toe.
Is the worst actually. But it's because I was like

(36:47):
Malibu, man, Malibu first point mental like it's like a long
borders and. I know paddle borders, paddle
borders. I broke 2 ribs last year.
Riff was surfing. Yeah, that was my first.
See. It's not any safer, really.
It is a bit safer, water is a little softer, but the reef and
the yeah. Other people.
Other people, yeah. And like, yeah, how long have
you been surfing for? I did it a little bit when I was

(37:10):
younger in Cornwall. That was kind of where I
learned. Like long boarding or or just
like soft top? Soft top and then I I got my own
one and then I started going to America for work and stuff and
doing it there a bit. And then a friend of mine moved
to Cornwall and I just used to go and visit him whenever I was
off and try and get some time in.

(37:30):
And now I kind of like try and semi build my holidays around
it. Yeah, me too.
Yeah. My girlfriend will let me but
she. Has the perpetual surfers.
Struggle. Yeah.
Because it's addiction. It's an addiction.
It's an addiction. It's an addiction because I
haven't surfed in so long though.
I was literally just in Los Angeles for press for this and
I, there was a well, awfulness of the hurricane in America

(37:53):
right now, but there was this a swell from the hurricane that
came to LA and, and it was like 3 days that the, the summer has
been really flat in LA and therewas three days that happened to
coincide with me being there. And it was like beautiful,
amazing waves everyday S swell. And it was really, it was
perfect. It was perfect, Yeah.
Like nice fun size or like intimidating?

(38:13):
Like head height, so like kind of fun and a little bit like on
the edge for me because I had. Three to five or something like
4-5. Yeah, 345, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anything beyond that, I'm yeah, I'm getting scared of.
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm like, I went to the
Philippines and they were like fun but scary.
I'm like, I'll get scared. I'm not.
Yeah, no, I need people out again.
I need like a director out there.

(38:34):
Yeah, yeah. I need.
I need like, I need like, yeah, I need like Fincher out there
with me just being like, the track is set.
I've got you just go in. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But also, I don't want to break any more bones, really.
I'd rather not. Why did you stop surfing or how
did you? Because of skating.
Skating. Because I stopped skating.
Yeah. Did you see like skating South
Bank and like, yeah, yeah. Did you ever, like, do anything

(38:54):
down that set of seven? That was my first seven set.
That was my first seven set. Did you?
Was that your I? Kick flipped it once, did you?
That was my biggest moment. When I was like 16. 15 or
something, Yeah, that was those were the days.
Those were the best days. Me and my friends are from from
a little town in Surrey and, andwe would have to like, we would

(39:17):
have to tell our parents we're just going to go to Guildford or
we're just going to go to Kingston.
Why they didn't want you to go to London?
Yeah, I don't know. There was like, well, my dad
didn't want me to go to London because he was, you know, it was
just fear monger. He was just like you're going
to, you're going to get murderedin London.
You're. Going to join again.
And also, like, I work and you're going to join again and
you're going to die from heroin Overdue.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just inevitable.

(39:37):
Especially skateboarding. Skaters.
See that skate? He knows what's coming.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he used to work in London.
He was like, I'll see you if yousneak up, I'll see you.
And I'm like fuck, my dad's gonna see me if I go to London.
I didn't realise that London wasn't just a High Street.
There was like 1 eyesight. Fuck guys, I can't go.
My dad works there so I just. Really.
Oh, he put the fear in. Me.
Oh yeah, he was good at that yeah, but it gave me a lot to

(39:59):
kind of like wriggle out of as well and.
But you. Did used to go?
Yeah, yeah, used to sneak. That I'm not fucking no fucking
do you know what I mean? Like.
I don't know that name's Square.I do.
I want. But it's the same.
I do what I want, terrified. But also like with surfing,
because I used to be a swimmer, my dad a swimming coach.
Yeah. Oh, really?
So I grew up swimming which. Was he your swimming coach?
Yeah, it's awful. It's intense, man.

(40:22):
It's really intense. It was brutal.
Yeah. So I stopped swimming.
No. Wonder you're an actor?
My brothers a doctor. I'm fucked man.
It's like, do you have any siblings?
I do. I'm one of four, yeah.
Oh wow, where are you? Like you?
Are you like second youngest? I'm the youngest.
You're the youngest, OK? Yeah, but carry on, carry on.
But. Anyway, I think swimming turned
into surfing. I just wanted to make whatever

(40:44):
that skill set was pleasurable because it wasn't pleasurable
when I was just a swimmer of. Course, did you do it in the UK
or did you? Did you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was raised here and.
Then London must have felt like a pretty.
I mean, you obviously grew up coming here, but yeah, in that
sense, was it like, oh, OK, downto London?
Was there like an element of because I had that, I was in the

(41:04):
suburbs kind of. So I still had an element of,
oh, I'm going into the yeah, yeah, the big thing that's like,
got it all and I can like have it all.
You know there's an element on there.
I, when I, when I came, I moved up when I was 17 to, to study
acting at Central School Speech and Drama in Swiss Cottage,
northwest London. Before then I was, you know,
just kind of stuck at school. I was just like, I don't know.

(41:27):
I don't really know why I'm alive actually.
I was like once I stopped skating and once, like all my
mates started going to the pub because they looked five years
older than me. Yeah.
And I was like. Oh, you looked young.
Too. I was like, I looked young and I
was like. Me too.
Yeah, I was just like at home, like fingerboarding.
Yeah, tech decks I was. Just like tech deck, just like

(41:48):
fuck. And I couldn't get into the pub.
I couldn't I couldn't get like afake ID that worked because I
just looked like a some kind of amoeba.
I was just like a little like a what single, single cell
Organism. I just looked like, like a
child. Yeah.
So to be honest, acting did kindof saved me in a way like, oh,
didn't acting did. And then it kind of got me out

(42:08):
of, got me out of a kind of rut that I could have been in, I
think when I was a kid because Ifeel like the Truman Show, when
it's when it's like, I know there's something else.
I have no idea what it is. And there's probably a door in
this sky. I just don't know how to access
it. But but I knew that if I didn't
access it, I was going to be in trouble with myself.
You see that with people that well, even myself when you're

(42:29):
like looking, how important it is to be a part of a tribe where
you're looking for your tribe for sure and like as a kid or
kids should explore so many different things.
That's. Like but for you it was skating
and then. Yeah, like, I probably thought I
was going to be a pro skateboardat one point.
I was nowhere near good enough. But it was like, you know,
that's it. That's that's what's on the
horizon, you know, like get sponsored, you know, making us

(42:52):
sponsor me videos, whack them onYouTube and maybe a Monster or a
Red Bull might give me a sponsorship.
Just doing like a pop shove it. Yeah, yeah, a fakey pop.
Shove it. You know, I think that like it
was a very important like hobby because it because it community,
community, yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

(43:14):
And again, it, it forced me to like get out of my own little
microcosm and explore the Londonthat I but ultimately I'm now
like in tune with a little bit, you know, and the side of the
things that interested me because I think it was kind of
like it's kind of provincial where I grew up so.

(43:35):
Right, right. It's like suburbs, East London,
so it does feel a little bit like it's own little bubble.
And yeah, skateboarding helped me get out of that, but.
Yeah, but when? When did acting come around for
you? I was doing it at school like
the just. For fun.
Just for fun and then. Was there any part of me that
was like, I love this and I wantto pursue it?
Or was it just? No, not really.

(43:57):
I was. I was making videos a lot.
I had this web series, like a sketch show that I was doing.
Yeah, that was like my what I thought I was going to do, maybe
like I was and then I was. You and mates.
Me and mates, but it was like itwas my thing that I could sort
of put together and I'd I'd ropeother people into.
It and when you were how old? I probably started doing it when
I was like 11 or 12. Oh.

(44:18):
That's. Sick.
I was. Yeah, I was.
I was young and. They were you had like early
like what kind of what kind of videos I want to can we see?
These no. I stupidly deleted them all.
Probably you know. They're not so stupid.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the best.
But they were. We started out doing like
Rainiers, Bear Grylls, like spoofs in the forest.

(44:40):
And then we started doing like Harry Potter spoofs and then we
would do like a weekly sort of skits and put them on YouTube
and there was like 4 people at school that watched them.
They'll be like, you got them upthis week and they'll be like,
yeah, they're coming, man. They're coming.
Ease off, ease off. Relax, man.
Come on. And then.
And then, yeah. And then I think I started

(45:02):
acting a little bit later. And then because I never put
myself in them, I was like, oh, I just need to like.
Be behind? Yeah, No.
This is it, man. I just want to be on the camera.
And then I I did a few plays andI did.
Do you know national connections?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. Oh, so cool.
We got some. We got some connections.
Did you do that as well? I was in there was a there was a

(45:22):
series of the one of the first plays I did.
It was a trilogy of plays, kind of came out of the connections
and it was at the National at the Cottesloe Theatre, which is
now the. Shed.
No, no, the smaller of the threetheatres, there's Littleton
Olivier and then there's the there used to be the cots as low
doesn't matter, but yeah, connections.
Yeah, it was like 3, like 1 was Ender Walsh.

(45:44):
Another one was Mark Ravenhill. But anyway, OK, cool.
So I did that and then I think after that I was, I was, I
probably like got the bug a little bit and.
How did you get to the connections though?
How did that happen? Well, I went to like there was a
local theatre school in in Walthamstow called Raw Academy.
They were like a really affordable theatre school run by

(46:07):
actors. That kind of changed my
perspective. Amazing.
That changed my opinion of it. And all of a sudden there was an
access to the, to the, to the world.
And I understood that there could be a path there.
And I almost joined the militaryand the, the my acting teacher
was like, why are you doing that?
Why? Why were you thinking of doing

(46:28):
that? Because I, I was in the Marine
cadets for years. I don't know why really.
I just again trying to find Triumph, trying to find
community and. Purpose.
Yeah, structure, all of that something.
Bigger. Yeah.
And I was quite chubby, so I waslike, I need to lose weight as
well. Yeah.
I need to go and do something that's going to like, yeah, get
me trim because I'm, I'm fed up of being a, a chubby boy.

(46:49):
Yeah. Hashtag chubby boy.
It's just going to be chubby boyending after this Bo I I think.
Chubby, but I so yeah. And then and then and then that
happened. And now I'm like, so grateful
that I got stared into this because yeah, I love it.
Yeah. But it was.
Did you always want to do it? What was your?
Kind of similar man I had out. I was lost.

(47:11):
I was lost when I was a teen. I was just like, you know what
we're talking about earlier, like all the sibling that was
just this very high achieving head boy of the school, you
know, captain of all these, you know, whatever doctor in the
making. And then I was like, what use am
I here? Like a little bit.
And I was like, I don't want to do the things that I'm being

(47:33):
told I want to do. I was, you know, I did want to
just skate and I didn't want to just kind of fuck around really.
I was a an idiot in a in a way that now has paid off.
But like, at the time it wasn't really valued.
And I understand why. But yeah, I just kind of got
lost. And I was like, I don't know
what exists that could work. And it was my mother that really
just kind of and was like, well,what about something creative as

(47:55):
I. Tried.
Yeah, it's great. Yeah, it's amazing.
And so I tried like art, music, and I liked all of those things,
but it didn't feel, just probably wasn't good enough for
them, to be honest. And I wanted to be an athlete.
I wanted to play basketball, to be a skateboarder.
But I like you, you know, those dreams kind of had to perish.
And then, yeah, I did. Basketball player, man.
Yeah, that would be, yeah. Can you imagine?

(48:17):
Me and you do you do you? Who?
Me and you, man. Do you play?
We could. Have been some?
Do you actually play basketball?Yeah, I like basketball.
Because I'm looking, I always look for people to play with in
London. Let's do it.
Finsbury Park. I'd love as far as Winsbury
Park. No, that's where I go.
Is that where you go? Well, sometimes I've got a mate
who plays there with me. Yeah, they got good pick up
games there, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm rubbish, but I
love it. I love it too.

(48:37):
I'm not, I'm by no means good. I just really enjoy it just in
the same way I like surfing. It's like, yeah, there are two
things that I and tennis like. There are like two or three
things where I'm just like, these are just for me and I
don't get, I don't have to like put any pressure on them.
They're just like pleasure. Yeah, yeah, I'm watching
basketball for the first time. Was like, whoa, yeah.
Being a game was like, oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's. Mental.

(48:58):
No, it's the best. The best.
It's balletic. It's like poetry.
Yeah. And that Michael Jordan
documentary, like, got so many other people into it.
And, like, I've seen that film like, five times.
I just like, crazy about that. And Hoop Dreams is such one of
my favorite movies. I've seen hoop dreams.
I've seen that so. Criterion Collection documentary
about like young, like high school school students who like
they follow. It follows a few different high

(49:19):
school kids in America who are like, it's like from the 80s and
the 90s who are like college prospects or MBA prospects.
And it's about following all their different stories.
And it's so beautiful, stunning.You'll dig it.
You'll definitely dig it. What's it called?
Hoop Dreams. Hoop Dreams.
I just watched the is it is it Steph Curry?
I haven't seen this documentary.That's good, but thank God that

(49:40):
your mum supported that because so many, so many people don't.
Well, also I was thinking about like raw the outside of like
thank God for those fucking programs.
Like, honestly, and thank God, there was something near nearby
the Epsom Playhouse for me. There was like an A workshop
outside of school when I was 15 that I was just like, oh, I
really like this, actually. This feels really good.
And then I had to add a teacher at school that was just that.

(50:02):
I think we need. You must have had a couple of
mentors that were like, oh, hey,I see you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chubby boy, you got you got
something to give here? I see you, chubby boy.
I. See you, chubby boy.
There goes chubby boy. So like, I think those moments
are the most kind of vital ones.I don't know.
I kind of want to. I don't know about you.
I just want to now position myself.
To be able to give those momentsto other people feels really

(50:25):
important. Yeah.
Do you get people reaching out? Do you have anyone in your life
that is that you've? Because that's a nice thing to
offer. That's a good like gift to be
able to share the share the loveof it is there Is there anyone
that's ever tried? I'm sure a lot of people try and
reach out to but it's. I'm always up for it.
Yeah, I love it. I really, it makes me feel like

(50:47):
I I'll sometimes go back and do stuff at my old drama school.
But yeah, otherwise I'm just like, if there's a genuine
connection, if there's someone that's genuinely like, I don't
know, it feels cold to our world, then I, I mean, like,
what better than to help someone?
But even like like this or like I don't.
Know will you will you be my mentor I.
Don't know but like. Really.
And likewise, it's a two way street.

(51:07):
I think like that's the thing. It's like we mentor each other
and like, and I need older people and I need younger people
in my life. Like nothing I like better than
hanging out with like I have a really close friend, Nat Nat
Wolf, you know, Nat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's like you're, he's like 10:30 this year actually.
But he, I became friends with him on a, on a gig and we kind
of mentor each other. Like I, he has stuff for me that

(51:28):
I need and, and take inspirationfrom, and I have stuff for him
that he needs and takes inspiration.
And I don't think it happens as much as it maybe should because
I think we're kind of pitted against each other more often
than place in community. And I love what you, you've been
saying about tribe and community.
And it's like, I remember getting to drama school for the
first time and just being like, oh, yeah.
Thank God. Yeah.
Oh. Thank God.

(51:48):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, even though I'm, I'm, you
know, it's, it was imperfect. It was like, at least there's a
language here and at least there's like a a shared longing
or something or a shared intention or I share curiosity.
Like we're all like in black leotards pretending to be farm
animals together and we all feelas ridiculous as each other, but
we're all kind of into it, like.Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(52:12):
Did you finish drama school or did you start working?
I finished, but I I started doing my first play, my first 2
plays while I was still in 3rd year.
Yeah, I did a play called Kess, like the Ken Loach film.
Do you ever see that Ken Loach film?
No way. No way.
It's kind of embarrassing. No, it's not.
That's sick. It's one of.
My favorite films. Man, I saw that tattoo in in the

(52:33):
film and baby girl, I was like I.
Probably should have covered it up, but.
Well, I, I was like, I wonder ifthat's character and if it is
character, is it? You did cares on stage.
Yeah, at Manchester Royal Exchange.
Have you been to that? Theatre.
No, my dad's from that way as well.
I didn't know about. That he's from, he's from
Manchester. He's from near Manchester, He's
from a place called Preston. How long was the run I?
Forget it was like my second play out of drama school.

(52:55):
So I was 20 and I played Billy. I played Billy Casper.
Oh man. And I oh man, you know, that's
great. I love that you have that.
It's so embarrassing. It's always so tender.
Who was I talking to about this?I was talking to another another
friend about this film and aboutwhy, why it's so important.
And it's it kind of doesn't bearanalysis, like it's beyond

(53:18):
analysis. But I think I don't know.
For me it was like if I could reduce it, which is impossible.
But it's like, I think we all feel exiled.
We all feel somehow disenfranchised, deemed as
useless, deemed as, I don't know, like not necessary in in
fact, more so like a hassle, like ostracized.

(53:40):
And there's something about thatcharacter finding tribe and
finding belonging in what in in wildness and his own wildness
and the wildness of the bird andthe wildness of nature and, and
feeling a, a true connection to being alive.
Like, like not unlike when, whenwe fucking hit that South Bank

(54:01):
7, not unlike when and, and, andsome some strange skateboarders
that we didn't know would like banging their boards because
the, the little groms, the little groms made it.
And not unlike you at RAW or me at my extracurricular drama
school plays. Yeah, That film and that story

(54:24):
is kind of a template of everything I want to make,
really. And the kind of soul of what I
want to put into the world and the kind of stories I want to
tell. That's so cool.
That. That's so cool.
How old were you when you got that?
I got it like a couple of years ago, but it's always been like a
really special film. I've always, my dad showed it to

(54:44):
me really young. And yeah, all of the things you
talk about was like blew my little, blew my little head off
and. That's so cool.
So your dad was a film person? Kind of my dad's still around.
Yeah, yeah, my dad, my dad does know his films, but I think that
was probably just a a connectionwith the sort of northern nature

(55:05):
as well that he was like, you need to see this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My mum My mum knew her films,
but. Is your mum around still?
Yeah, yeah, OK, good. Your parents around.
My mum passed five years ago, mydad is around, he's coming to
the We Have premiere of London Film Festival premiere of our
film tonight. Tonight, Yeah.
Oh. Man, yeah, I'm knackered.
Enjoy. It try it all my old school

(55:27):
mates what used to skate where they're coming.
They're coming. Yeah, with all their wives.
Nice. Nice, nice kids.
Any kids in the mix? Not yeah, there are kids, but
they're they're not it's an R rated it's like 18 I think, or
15. So they, the kids can't come.
Has your dad seen it? No, I'm concerned for him to see
it. Why?
Well, because of the what it's about and because it's about the

(55:47):
a relationship and, you know, a loss in a relationship and, you
know, he's he's obviously been through that in the last five
years and he's still going through it in his own way.
So I'm going to sit in and I'm going to watch it with him.
Yeah. I'm going to sit next to him and
just kind of like be there. Yeah.
I think. I think it's like, sorry, going
back to we, we're not saving lives, but like, I don't know to

(56:08):
to be able to create moments of healing potentially to set up.
Who knows, he might watch him belike, yeah, it's not your best
work. It's.
Like a load of shit, it's. Absolutely possible, but it's
also. Possible to be honest with you.
Oh yeah, but it's also possible that he might just get cracked
open by it. And it might, it might unlock
some more grief or it might unlock some more healing and

(56:29):
more like remembrance or more, it might make some sense of his
pain more if he feels less alonethan it or whatever.
And I want to, I want to be there with him.
And part of the reason why I took the film was because of
that, to be honest, That becauseof what he'd been, he'd, he'd
gone through and what we'd all gone through and losing my mum.
And it felt like a film that could honor that experience in

(56:50):
some kind of way and make it universal and give solace to a
bunch of people who obviously going through the same shit that
I'm going through, right. The garden variety thing, you
know? And like, again, that
connective, it's like, oh God, yeah, we're all just going
through the same shit at different times.
And how wonderful is it that we get to like hold each other as
we're as we're doing it? Time to wrap up.

(57:13):
Time. To wrap up, wait, should we do a
couple of these? All right, let's just do rapid
fire. Let's just, no, you just want,
let's just fuck around. What were these?
Harris does not like these. These What's your favorite post
shoot meal? Oh, I don't mind that I like a
bit. Let's do it.
Let's do it. Go, go, go, Yeah.
It's not that nourishing ourselves is super superficial.
Answer the question. Fucking hell, man, you wanted

(57:34):
QuickTime? Stop rambling, Garfield.
I don't know, Like a spag bowl? Like a nice spag bowl with a lot
of parmesan. What about you?
Burger and chips. Where from?
What's your favorite burger in London?
Maybe five guys, Five guys good.Yeah, yeah, five guys good.
Maybe in and out if I'm in America.
Yeah, in California, if you could be be in a remake of any

(57:55):
film, what would it be? Well, that's quite good
actually. Secret Garden, But they did
that, so that's a bad one. What about you?
You know what, white men can't jump.
But they just did that already with Jack Harlow.
So I don't want to be in a remake of a remake.
If you could work with a former Co star again, who would that
be? Emma Corin loved, loved that

(58:15):
very much. What?
Do you guys do together? We did a series called Murder at
the End of the World, and we hada very fun time.
Yeah, amazing. She.
Seems really great. And you?
God, I mean multiple, a lot of people.
Jesse Eisenberg, Sally Field. Jesse just made a film.
I know. Yeah, I'm so excited to see it.
Mine Sheen. I'd like to play mine Sheen.
Vincent D'onofrio. God, a lot of people.

(58:39):
Which of each other's films would you like to star in?
That's a good one. Social network.
OK, sounds like. Yeah, no hesitation.
I would say. And spider man, you and my
spider man. Oh, thanks dude.
So maybe, maybe spider man thanks.
Can I have two? Yeah, I'm going to take two.
I'm going to take triangle, sadness and and baby girl.
Actually, do you believe there'sone great love for each person?
One great love. Yeah, I don't think so.

(59:00):
I don't think so, no. I think love is an unconditioned
energy that is in always around and we either are tuned into it
or not and it can exist anywhere.
Yeah, that's nice. I like that.
Yeah. Yeah.
Which one of your characters most like you in real life?
It's revealing. Yeah, let's not do that.
What are you reading right now? Any book recommendations?

(59:21):
I'm reading a book about the 60s.
What about you? You want to talk more about
that? No is.
It because you're making a film.Yeah.
And it's like it's it's yeah. What am I reading right now?
Yeah, I can't say what I'm reading either because it's also
to do with the project. I'm not a good reader.
I like. I'm I'm a slow reader.
Me too. I like listening.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm listening to Mike Nichols

(59:41):
biography right now, which is really great.
Maybe we should just end this. And I love baby girl, man, I
think baby girl is so. Fucking brilliant.
Love your film too. Thank you.
I'm really excited for everyone to see it.
Good luck tonight. Yeah, good luck with your flight
and you're going to get, you're going to LA, you're going to get
some waves. Yeah, I'm going to try.
Where do you? Where are you going to go?
Where do you surf at first point?
First point. Or maybe the colony, I don't
know. Nice.

(01:00:01):
Maybe I'll go further up. Let me know.
We'll figure. We'll talk after the cameras.
Thanks for listening. The A 24 podcast is produced by
us A 24. Special thanks to our editor Tom
Wyatt and Robot Repair, who composed our theme.