Movies Are Like My Parents with Ari Aster & Bill Hader

Topics covered include: Steven Soderbergh’s greatest commentary tracks, the first Mission Impossible as a perfect film, writing movies for actors not executives, Ari telling Bill the idea for Eddington outside of an Italian restaurant, Bill laughing at the sound of Toni Collette’s head falling off in Hereditary, being intuitive and impulsive, David Lynch as a great spiritual teacher, using genre film as a shield, Ari’s deep research process in New Mexico before making Eddington, the genius comedy of Christopher Morris, walking into the meat grinder, unmade horror scripts, Bill’s cameo in Beau is Afraid, going beyond the breaking point, Steven Spielberg as the king of shot sequencing, childhood obsession with screenplays, Sturges on Sturges, Bill filming shorts as a kid with his sister in Tulsa, meeting Scorsese at SNL, and 50+ films that shaped them. 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I'm Ari Astor. And I'm Bill Hader, and this is
the A 24 podcast. Yeah, we did recreate this
Steven Soderbergh Limb Dobbs Limey commentary commentary we
get in a fight. We're Limb Dobbs.
Like I never liked him, just airs.
All of his grievances, right? That is the best commentary.
I think it might be the best commentary because you're

(00:21):
watching it and enjoying the movie and then in the middle of
it, yeah, I think it's it's it starts because Peter Fonda has a
picture of Terence Stamp's daughter, like, in his house.
Right. And, and Soderbergh is like,
that's yeah, that that covers it.
Yeah. Lambdav is like, yeah, instead
of her entire back story that I spent years writing, we just put
a photo of her. It's like every Screener.

(00:43):
Had that photo, he goes, he would never have that photo in
his house. If he was somewhat responsible
for her death, why the fuck would he have a picture of her
in her house? And then I remember watching it
kind of laughing, like it felt really intimate.
Where like at a dinner and you're like, oh, these are two
friends kind of ribbing each other.
And then you realize like, Oh, no.
Yeah, by the end they kind of have to clean it up a little bit

(01:04):
like they have to patch it up before it's over.
But but it is it is like every every screenwriters fantasy
right Is to finally get the director in the room yeah, and
just air their grievances 1 by 1as the film plays and and
Soderbergh is just like yeah, well, I I like.

(01:24):
It yeah, he handles it really well.
I mean he. Handles it.
He's pretty graceful. He's like, OK, alright, well,
he's probably gotten these conversations with Lem Dobbs
before, you know, like he's familiar with.
Oh no, you feel like it's definitely like a fraught, A
fraught relationship. Well, also, didn't he?
It was Kafka too that he wrote. Oh yeah, and.

(01:45):
Kafka was like just a reviled. Yeah, right, film.
Yeah, I like Kafka. I like Kafka, actually.
Really, Really. I think Jeremy Irons is
incredibly good in that movie. It's beautiful.
Yeah, it's a gorgeous movie. I remember when that movie came
out and knowing about Sex Lies and Videotape and they and
seeing the trailer beforehand, it was like from the director of

(02:07):
Sex Lies and Videotape and I waslike, wow, that's a cool left
turn. You know, it was just like to be
your follow up to Sex Lies I thought was cool and then doing
King of the Hill I thought was cool.
The hill is so good. Yeah, I just thought those those
early things are so interesting that he swerved like that.
And then and then Schizopolis. And then Schizopolis, I was

(02:28):
like, I was obsessed with that. Film Schizopolis is amazing.
That's also got a great commentary trek.
Oh yeah, he's interviewing himself.
I. Forgot about that.
Soderbergh is great. Soderbergh is really he's.
Very funny in that movie. He's so funny in that film and
that film is there's a there's abook he put out with.

(02:48):
Richard Lester. With Richard Lester, that's just
incredible at that time. Yeah, so good.
Yeah, actually when I moved to LA, the sex lies and videotape
his journal that there was like a forward.
The making of it. The making of it and there was a
forward in that, which was basically just about him, like

(03:09):
moving from Louisiana to LA and like just trying to get work
and, and everything that was like so inspiring to me.
And every time I would get really down, like 25 years ago
when I moved to LA, I would break that out and read it and
go like, all right, I just have to like, work harder, make
connections, you know, and just do all that.
That was a bit of a tradition. There were a lot of those.

(03:31):
There's Spike Lee did one of those for the I'm a Diary for
pre production and production for for Do the Right Thing.
And then and then Emma Thompson did one for For Sensibility.
Sensibility. That's true.
I forgot about that. Yeah, that was really good.
Yeah. They should bring that back.
Why don't you do that? I really it just seems like such

(03:56):
a waste of time. I could I could be working on
the movie. I could be working on the movie
instead. Of reminiscing about what just
happened. Yeah, yeah.
I don't even think I want to relive it because I would be
writing the diary entry and thenrealize how I fucked up the
day's work, you know, and be like, oh, wait a minute.
No, I want to read somebody else's, but I don't want to
memorialize anything. Yeah, yeah.

(04:18):
But the, the, the sex lies and videotape ones really good.
And the Richard Lester one's really great.
Really great. Remember, he's like starting.
He's like Richard Lester as the man who I knew more than he was
asked. Yeah, I thought it was very
funny. I tried showing my kids the the
new Mission Impossible, and theyweren't.
They were not having it. I haven't seen the new one yet,

(04:39):
but I I do think the first one is incredible.
The Brian De Palma one, it's amazing.
Yeah, I love that movie. It's so great.
I love that film. They like that one isn't.
That script written, it was likewritten by like Steve Xylian,
like Robert Towne. Yeah, yeah, like Ben Heck.
Yeah, Mankowitz. Mankowitz Yeah.
It's like, it's like every great, like William I, I I'm

(05:00):
not. I think William Goldman might
have been on it. It was just like I.
I think it was was Goldman. It was.
It was like every great writer like historical writer wrote on
the 1st Mission Impossible movie.
And then De Palma, it's so good.It's really.
Good. It is really good and it's
funny. Yeah, and there's like, and
there's no, there's no action. It's all like intrigue.

(05:22):
Yeah, it's all yeah. Until the end and then the and
then you have and then you have the the bullet train which.
Yeah, Was Jon Voight on a bullettrain and masks.
But that sequence where he's he's being lowered into the room
is like, it's incredible. Yeah.
It's masterfully done. I mean that that is one of the
best. I remember seeing that in the

(05:42):
theater and people just losing their minds.
Like, it just, it works so well.I got to talk to you about your
movie a little bit. So you sent me the script for it
a while ago. I remember us actually sitting
outside at an Italian restaurantand you telling me the story,
you know, and you're like, I'm doing a COVID Western.
That's kind of Jim Thompson Y and I went oh, OK, wow, that

(06:05):
sounds. You thought it was a bad idea.
I thought it was a bad idea. Yeah.
I was like, all right, well, that's interesting.
No. But then when I read it, I was
like, this is awesome. But then we just.
But you can never really fully understand.
And like, you're such a, an actual like, like a real

(06:25):
filmmaker. Like when you read the scripts
of actual film makers, they justthey read where you could see
the movie in a way that's not written for like executives, you
know, like I as an actor, I would read a lot of scripts that
I was like, oh, this is to sell,you know?
But your scripts are so full andinteresting because I'm like,

(06:45):
oh, this is the guy who's seen the movie and they read really
well and exciting. But then seeing the movie, which
I just saw a couple weeks ago and I called you after, there's
no hyperbole. I think it's a masterpiece.
I really do. I can't stop thinking about it.
My girlfriend, Allie, we are still talking about it

(07:09):
constantly. And anybody we talked to, we're
just like, you have to see Eddington when it comes out, you
have to see it. And Alec Berg, the Co creator of
Barry was there, Jason Walner and all of us, Guillermo del
Toro was there and we've all been texting each other going
like, what did we just see? That was phenomenal.
And I think that the thing that the the word that I that I

(07:33):
relate to is Ali said that was very refreshing that somebody
came out and made a movie that just kind of just stated the
problem. You know, that's that like,
sorry to be potential, but that check off thing of like you
present the problem, not the solution, you know, and so many
things today. I see you're trying to be the

(07:54):
solution, or at least some if wejust did this, this what you
know, and that never really works, but some going like,
well, here's how I feel about a lot of things.
I don't want to ruin. I don't want to give anything
away, but I was just really truly as like the the feeling I

(08:16):
had. We got in the car and I told how
I go. I can't believe I'm friends with
the guy who made that. That thing's unbelievable.
So it really I'm I it, it reallyis like, I don't know what else
to say. I just think I thought it was a
complete. I do think it's a masterpiece.
Oh. Thanks man.
I know it's thank you. I know it's I.
Really appreciate that. I'm not.
Look, I don't want money or anything.

(08:38):
No, I'm not asking for money. I'm not about to hit you up.
I'll give it. I'll I'll give you money.
It's OK, but do it after the thing.
But but how in the, when you're writing something like that, is
it just like, I know you're going to be talking a lot about
how'd you come up with the idea and all these things, But I'm
always interested just like in process stuff because I, I'm so

(09:01):
insecure about my own process, which is like very like, not
very disciplined at all. And kind of like I would say
kind of lazy. And then suddenly I just get
like a ton of work done and thenI'm lazy and I get a ton of work
done. But with you with this idea, was
it a thing that, OK, OK, everyday I'm just going to like

(09:22):
work on this thing? Or was it a burst of you know,
it was? Kind of a burst.
Well, it was. I don't have much of a process
either. I, I think mostly it's intuitive
thing, but also like an impulsive thing, right?
I just, if, if something's there, I, I write it down and I
tend to try to not censor myselfor edit anything until it's

(09:44):
down. And then once it's down, it
becomes a process of like just stealing yourself and not and
not taking out the things that you know, should probably not be
there. Well, I mean that that that
maybe need to be there for like the integrity of the thing, but
that for your own Peace of Mind,you know, would be better taken

(10:07):
out in this film has a lot. Of those, yeah.
Yeah, there were a couple thingsthat I I'm actually happy I.
Took out. I took out.
Well, but when you look at that first like you kind of get that
like that inspired draft out andthen like, do you take a period
and then look at it and go, oh, OK, what was I thinking?

(10:29):
Or oh, I like this. Or.
In this case, I had been wantingto write something about the
atmosphere, about like just the environment we were living in.
And that of course just includesthe Internet.
Like the like what, what does itfeel like to actually just be
living in the Internet? And I didn't have like AI didn't

(10:53):
have an idea beyond that. And then I realized that I had
this script called Eddington that I tried to get made like 8
years before I made hereditary and it didn't happen.
Oh. Wow, I didn't know that.
It was just sort of like this, you know, contemporary Western
that I lost interest in because it needed something else like

(11:17):
it. It was missing something.
And then I I realized, oh, I could take the basic structure
and world of that script and then use that as a thing to hang
all these other. It's great.
Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, that's cool.
Yeah, so that kind of allowed meto write something in about 3

(11:38):
weeks. Oh wow.
And then I left it alone cause Bow is afraid was the thing.
And then, and then in editing Bow, I kind of started to Polish
it and, and return to it and revise it.
And, and then I, I went to New Mexico, which is where I'm from,
and kind of drove around the state, going to different small

(11:59):
towns and pueblos and, and interviewing sheriff's, police
chiefs, public officials, like, you know, mayors and, and just
started getting as full a picture as I could of, of the,
the, the states politics. Yeah, yeah.
And that that really, like once I had done that and I and I met

(12:22):
certain people that felt like really great models for
different characters, it startedto get away from me in a good
way. And then it started to stop
being kind of me playing with little like army men, you know?
Yeah, yeah, some people don't like let that happen.
You can see the movies, if you will make real like, oh, they're

(12:44):
playing with their army men. Yeah, I know what I mean.
But I like that you don't do that.
Yeah, we'll talk about those offcamera.
But. But though that's what I like
about your stuff is that it feels so personal.
I remember seeing Hereditary forthe first time and shooting it
too, and I went with some of thepeople were making that movie
and I remember going well, that's not only a great horror

(13:05):
movie, I mean, last 20 minutes of it really breathtaking, I
thought and and funny. I don't think anybody.
Hiram, your eye was the first person I met that we found Tony
Collette's head falling. The sound effect of her head
falling like. Funny.
Well, it's satisfying. It's very satisfying when you

(13:26):
hear her head fall. I remember laughing because I
was like, that's funny that thisguy included that because you
don't you don't need it, but it's there.
Like most movies. A horror movie would have taken
that out. But it's so funny that you hear
it and I was telling hero and hegoes, Oh my God, I laughed so

(13:47):
hard when the head, you hear thehead fall.
And maybe that's just like a filmmaker thing.
It's like we found it very funny.
But I was also like, this is an amazing filmmaker.
I was like, Jesus Christ, this is like because it was so
personal. I could feel all the IT, it just
felt incredibly personal. And for me, that's the best.

(14:11):
And we've talked about this, youknow, you see something like
Rosemary's Baby or something like that and you go, wow, this
feels like a very personal story, you know, on some level,
you know, and it was the details.
The details feel very personal. Yes, what Polanski, it always
does. But was that a thing that that

(14:33):
again, is just instinctual or was that something that AFI,
they're like, all right, you need a bit more of yourself and
you know what I mean? It was one of those things.
David Lynch too, does that too. I would actually say David
Lynch, you know, when he passed away, I think we were texting,
but I like watched all his movies again, like Gravity
passed away and yeah, me too. And that was the thing that

(14:55):
knocked me out of that was like,God, these are so personal.
He feels so almost like embarrassingly personal.
Well, the Yeah, just like the vision is so complete and
singular and like and just idiosyncratic and his, like,
picture of, like America. It's like always including the
things he loves and the things that scare him and.

(15:16):
And his motifs. That he's kind of drawn to, you
know, that he's, that he also, he's like a fetishist.
Yeah. No, he that his death really hit
me hard in a way that kind of surprised me.
Part of it has to do with him being something of like a
spiritual teacher for a lot of people.
Yeah, I think so too. I think he also just was a

(15:37):
person that showed. I remember seeing Eraserhead and
watching it again this time and just thinking like, oh, this is
about a guy who is terrified of having a family and terrified of
all his responsibility and having a child and but that it
came out of him in this way. The in laws.
Oh yeah, Bill. And look at my knee.

(16:00):
And I mean, that whole scene with the family is just amazing.
And it's still I could. That movie is also kind of
timeless too, if you watch it and you think it was made during
the 70s, but it could have been made at any time.
I just can't. I couldn't imagine seen that in

(16:21):
the 70s and just going like wellsomeone found a new language.
Yeah, I know. It really is.
And it just was all instinctual and I feel that near stuff
though, it's like it's a similarlike Midsummer.
I remember, I think that's how you and I started talking was I
was supposed to do AQ and a or moderate something or something.

(16:44):
And then I was like, well, can Ijust say hi to him?
It was during pandemic and I think I called you.
Yeah, we. Had like a four hour
conversation. Yeah, we talked like 4 hours
during COVID, Yeah, during lockdown.
And then I was just like, this is amazing What a this is like
one of the greatest breakup movies of all time, you know?

(17:05):
But yeah, what is that a thing that's like you tend to be drawn
towards. It's just an instinctual thing
in your writing and. The person the.
Personal aspect of it. Well, I, yeah, I would say that
for me, I, I kind of, I think I use genre in some ways as like

(17:28):
a, a shield or like a it's, it's, it's a, it's a way of like
obfuscating. So in some ways it's like
cowardice, right? It's that, it's that I need to
veil, right. Just how personal the stories
are. And so, yeah, I think it, I
think if anything, I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm sometimes a little

(17:51):
embarrassed by just how like, you know, it, it, it verges on
like solipsism, you know, sometimes.
But I know that just writing is,is hard.
And I can only ever really do itwhen I'm in some, some kind of
crisis or if I'm, if I'm really stuck.
When we first became friends, you sent me a script for a

(18:12):
feature that you haven't made yet.
That is I, I won't talk about it, but it except to say that
it's incredibly personal and, and has a lot of things from
your life and, and I, I found itto be just like so real and like
really beautifully observed. And it's like, it's just, it's a

(18:35):
movie that was so vivid on the page that I feel like I've
already seen it. It doesn't exist yet, but I
really, really wanted to. So I, I know just as far as that
project is concerned that you operate in a similar way.
It, it, it really made me and, and I mean, you mentioned
Chekhov and it, it really brought Chekhov to mine in its
unsentimentality, it's lack of sentimentality.

(18:58):
And then also just the way that it, it sets up kind of a
familiar problem. But the innovation is that it
ends the way life does, not the way a story does.
It's why. It's just so hard to get at me.
Has it been? A little bit, yeah, you know,
but not not like in a huge way, but yeah, in a in a bit, in a

(19:20):
bit of a way, yeah. It's so great.
But that's the thing I always like, you know, when we talk
about and I think I mentioned this to you after I saw
Eddington was I had written a horror movie right after Berry
wrapped and I didn't really takea break after Berry.
I kind of went right into writing this feature and I was
like, I'm going to make this feature.

(19:41):
And I've had a meeting with a big producer who's actually very
smart. Lovely guy, but it wasn't for
him. And if you've seen his other
movies, I won't say who it was, but great guy.
But it's just not for him. But his response to it was so
bad. This is this is, this is so mean

(20:04):
spirited and horrible and everything.
I was like, yeah, it's a horror movie and it's like, it's so.
Just it's just so disturbing andjust so cynical and this and I
was like, did you not see my TV show, you know, but it was this
interesting thing that happened.It did kind of not.
It did kind of and I think it was just because I was very

(20:26):
vulnerable after finishing Berryand this kind of pressure of
like, what are you going to do next or whatever.
That was all self-imposed. No one was asking me that.
It was just my own neurosis thatI, I, I really lost my
confidence. And so I kind of set it aside
for a bit and we'll go back to it.
I know. But when I saw Eddington, I
think I told you I seen that. I was like, yes, OK, I'm going

(20:50):
to go back to that project because he did it, you know, I
go, he had the balls to do the thing that I kind of was like
talked out of, you know what I mean?
And let's see how. Eddington does It might, it
might not have. No, but for me, it's it's for
me, it's fantastic. No, but I think it's fantastic.
I don't I don't, you know, some of this you just can't control,

(21:11):
you know, but I do think it's a film that will last forever And
and oh man, and it but it is a thing that we you know it.
I haven't had an experience likethat in a while where we were
all in the parking lot afterwards kind of looking at
each other going what the fuck did we just that that was that

(21:32):
was that was amazing. And like Jason Walner, who's
like such a lovely guy, was justlike and Alec Berg and it was
just like that was phenomenal. I know Guillermo talked to you
afterwards and he was texting mejust like that was amazing.
It is a masterpiece. You know, the balls, Ori
Esther's got big balls, man. Like he just loved it, you know.

(21:56):
And so that's, you know, it's very.
But that gave me this. That's the best thing you could
say about a piece of art is thatinspires you to like, you know,
go for it, go for the risk. And a bit with you, it almost
seems like, yeah, it doesn't even occur to you that it might
be an issue, but maybe it does. Like you go, OK, this might be

(22:16):
an issue, but I got to keep moving, you know, like.
Yeah, I, I think I just really, I the minute I start thinking
strategically, like I just lose steam.
I just like those thoughts, likejust don't go very far because I
can't get the, I can't get the energy to do that, that kind of
thing. But I, I, yeah, this was there.

(22:39):
There were a lot of nerves in making.
This was like, like, am I going to do this?
Why? I told filmmaker friend.
I told him like, you know the idea and he was like, you're
just going to walk into that meat grinder.
You're going to and I don't know, but thanks, man.

(23:01):
I, I'm, I'm so glad that you liked it.
Yeah, loved it, and then I was happy too.
People have asked me what's it like working with him because I
was in Beau's Afraid and it's always fun when people tell me
they saw Bows. I've had this happen now four
times where people are like, I love Bows afraid.
I really like that scene where he's on the phone with the UPS

(23:22):
guy and everything and I'm like,uh huh, you know that's me,
right? And they go no it's not.
I'm like yeah that's me. That's happened to be 3 times
where people don't believe me and I'm like, no, that's me on
the phone. The guy crying about finding his
dead mom and everything. That's me.
And it's like, shut the fuck up.I'm like I'm in the movie.
You're amazing in that scene. That's my that's probably my
favorite scene in the film. Well, it was very funny because

(23:43):
my my poor. Hinges on the sorry, I was just
going to say the humor of that scene hinges on you just being
that guy absolutely in hell. Like just.
It's not like. I remember just recording that
in my house and my poor assistant, Alyssa Donovan was

(24:03):
just in the other room and she would just peek her head in
like, because, because I would do a couple of takes.
And then my memory I have is you, you do it with Joaquin.
And then you would come in and go, hey, Bill, that was great.
And then you went, I have a question.
Are you really crying? I go, I'm not crying.
And you go, I think, I think youshould really cry.

(24:24):
So I really got worked up alone,alone, really crying and got
really sad. And then I did this thing and I
felt, man, I really poured my heart on that one.
I'm like wiping tears in my eyes.
And then you come on and you're dying laugh and you go, oh,
Bill, we're cracking up over here at the monitor.
It's really great. So I didn't know what what I

(24:49):
didn't have a monitor in front of me or anything.
So I'm just going off of what was on this other end of the
phone. So it wasn't until I saw the
movie that I saw the shot and the slow pushing on him and
everything. And I was like, oh, that's what
they were looking at. And then I thought of incredibly
funny when I saw it. But over the phone it it, I just
was like, I just, yeah, I was just trying to play the reality

(25:12):
of the moments. You're so great in it.
We we did like 35 takes of that or something.
It was a lot like, but it was because it was one shot.
Yeah, it was very funny. Yeah.
And Joaquin was just in it the whole time.
People were like, is there any sort of, like, small talk?
And I was like, no, no, he's just fully in it, you know?

(25:34):
Do You know? Do you know Blue Jam by Chris
Morris? Oh yeah, ended.
Up doing it as it's a radio showby Chris Morris that he ended up
doing as ATV show called Jam. And those sketches are so funny
to me because there's there are no jokes.
It's just the most hellish yeah,nightmare situations like a a

(25:55):
woman whose baby just died and she calls over like a plumber to
like fix the baby because he fixed her boiler last week.
And and she's she's just manic and and she's it's it's a woman
whose baby just died, like clearly who's in like, like
denial. And it's so funny because it's

(26:16):
so morbid and it's just so real.Like if if the minute it would
have become kind of arch or camplike it.
It would. Yeah, he.
Never does that. He never does that.
Chris Morris, Yeah. He's my he's like my favorite.
I love. That one so much when I was at
SNL the the pedophile episode ofBrass Eye.
Pedagen. Yeah, Pedagen we would we would

(26:38):
all sit in an office and watch it and kind of just marvel at
the that they were make that they were finding genuinely
great jokes about this and then when I wear.
Pedophile dressed as a school. Like the hardest I've laughed I
think at anything. One of the hardest times ever
laughed was the. The prison vessel.
No, the what? Is that the thing where the it's

(27:02):
like they shot the world's worstpedophile into outer space?
In the one man prison vessel, but a little boy accidentally
wrote somehow. An 8 year old boy got on board
and he goes, said NASA. This was the one thing we didn't
want to have happened and I fellout of my seat laughing.
However, but I were going to South Park and now they would

(27:23):
quote Chris Morris constantly and just I think he's just
somebody that. Of course those guys love.
Him though, they love him and I think they're probably, I think
Matt's friends with him. But but yeah, he was that, that
stuff was something that you just, we we were kind of like,
God, could you imagine? They're getting away with this
stuff? And I remember meeting Simon

(27:44):
Pegg and he's like, oh, Sean, the other stuff.
I go, no, no, the the the guy inthe stocks who's like won't
doesn't find, you know, Chris Morris is like, don't you want
to have sex with my son? He's like, no, I don't fancy
him. And he's like, what do you mean
you don't fancy him? Look at him.
He's beautiful. It's like, I cannot believe
they're making these jokes. Yeah, but somehow it was more of

(28:05):
a bit. It was amazing.
But it was all all a brass size.Phenomenal cake.
Animals episode. Yeah.
Cake. The drugs.
The drugs episode. Yeah, is a non existent but real
sounding or whatever it was. And before that was on the hour
and the day, today the. Day today was amazing.
Which he did with Iannucci, which is just.
Coogan. Yeah, Coogan as as Alan
Partridge. As Alan Partridge and remember

(28:26):
Coogan did a very funny thing where he was the guy that saw a
bank robbery. Do you remember that?
Yeah. There you go.
What did you see? Do you remember this?
Did you not like this? No, no, no, no, I I've seen the
mom I. There's a bank robbery.
He's like, well, the guy came out and he was.
Like when he gets hit in the head.
And what's the the bomb dogs? The dogs that are being used as

(28:51):
bombs. Yeah.
There's so many. There's the the priest.
The priest was being bullied by the other priests.
I mean, that was stuff that you know, I mean, yeah, that and
then when he did 4 lions and everything.
I just do. 4 Lions is fucking incredible.
Which he did with, I think he wrote that with Jesse Armstrong

(29:11):
and Sam Bain, who did Peep Show,you know?
Yeah, so. Jesse Armstrong obviously did
one on succession. Succession, the greatest thing.
Yeah. And and and the thick of it.
Yeah, the thick of it was unbelievable.
But but but 4 lions was so yeah,just like the Three Stooges as
as jihadist. Yeah, where he's like, how did

(29:32):
you keep, where did you get all the was it manure or something
for the bomb? They just kept going back to the
same store and he goes I went asa disguising as well as you
disguise and he just. Just put covering his beard.
Just he just put his hands over his face to cover his beard and
he talked in a woman's voice. So it's like, I need to watch

(29:53):
that movie again, but I just remember it's great.
But that was another thing. It's so funny.
You see that in the theater. I remember and I would say 20%
of us were howling and then there was 80% of the audience
was just like, this is not funnyat all.
This is like really important taste and everything.
And and I don't know, I really admired that.
Well, for me doing Bury too, it was like a thing where you go,

(30:15):
oh, this doesn't look like a comedy.
It it looked like when those guys blow up, it's very
realistic, but also funny. Like the tone is very, you know,
a specific way. Well, Barry has this amazing
trajectory of beginning in its first season.
It's it's there's something familiar about I I really, I

(30:36):
really, really like its first season.
But then 2-3 and four for me, itgoes to 4, Right?
Yeah, 2. Sorry, but 2-3 and four for me
it, it just becomes incrementally more like
fascinating and strange and sad and bleak and it, it becomes

(30:56):
kind of like experimental. I don't know.
I, I, I really love how Barry evolved it, it, it, it really
became something totally unique.And, and, and some of those, I
mean, just just as a director aswell, like you, you're, you're
so distinct. And I their action scenes, I

(31:17):
mean, Ronnie and Lily, right? Was the first, Yeah, that was
the karate girl. One in season 2 that that was
because I just love like a sustained like like prolonged
action sequence that kind of just that that goes beyond the
breaking point like but that onewent so far beyond it.
And then in season 3, there's the, the motorcycle chase, which

(31:41):
is one of the most like cinematic, vividly realized
things I've ever seen. And not just on TVI, just I, I,
I watched that a couple times. What you're doing with the
sound, it felt like a shame thatI was watching it on my TV.
It's like I want to see this in.A theater it's, I know that was
the coolest thing was we did that was like at the Emmy

(32:02):
episode. So, and I think we chose as the
Emmy episode just 'cause they would screen it for your
consideration events and we could see it in the theater with
proper sound and everything. But I really appreciate it.
No, that, but that, that you know how it's like, that's
another one where you're just like you're following your
instincts. And then I don't know if you
have this too. We've kind of talked about this
where you're like, hey, man, I think I'm, you know, that Ronnie

(32:23):
Lily, when I was like, I think I'm finding my voice a little
bit, you know, I really think I figured this out.
And then it's always for me in the mix where I'm watching it
and I'm like, Oh my God, I like the Coen brothers.
This is just such a Coen brothers RIP off, you know, or
Oh my God, this is the like the end of season 2.
I'm like, this is taxi driver. Why didn't anybody tell me?
I was just doing the end of TaxiDriver And it's I always realize

(32:46):
they're in the mix. Yeah.
They're just in your it's like in your DNA and and and I was
like someone asked me, oh, where's some of the movies you
liked to watch for Barry? And I listed some and in there
was the American friend in 3rd Man.
And then to, you know, the DP, Carl Hersey on season 3 was

(33:06):
like, oh, you know, the Coen brothers, every time before they
watch a movie, they watch the third man, an American friend
and the conformist. And I was like, oh jeez, I can't
escape the influence of that. But they can't escape those.
In yeah, they can't escape those.
Yeah, that's true. Same with, you know, you, you
see like the Hudsucker Proxy andyou're like, oh, that's the big
clock. And that, yeah, that's.

(33:27):
The big clock. Oh, it's, it's, you know,
there's so much Hawks in there and Sturgis and, and so much
Capra, especially Mr. Deeds. Oh, Mr. Deeds.
Hudsucker Proxy is so like Mr. Deeds goes to town.
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, and hail the conquering
hero. Oh. 100% you know, you could
tell how much they like Sturgis movies or even like watching

(33:48):
growing up and watching Star Wars and Steven Spielberg movies
and stuff and then seeing which is a movie like for me isn't
like I think it looks beautiful,but didn't hit me the way I
think it did for that generationwas the Searchers.
I think Ford in general, I thinkthey look amazing, but his movie

(34:09):
I I love My Darling Clementine. Actually, I think that's my
favorite. I think that movie from top to
bottom is pretty fantastic and. Really and really, really moving
and. And you could tell its host when
it came back from war. Because the whole ending,
there's like no music and there's something kind of sad
and like objectively kind of criticizing the violence of the

(34:30):
OK Corral thing instead of beingin the middle of it and then in
the mix. Do you know what I mean?
While also just being so romantic and yeah, and just like
idyllic. Yeah, same.
That that's my darling Clementine and the man who shot
liberty violence and and young Mr. Lincoln are my favorite.
Those are great. But I'm with you on the

(34:51):
Searchers, which I think is so gorgeous, but tonally, tonally,
it's like really odd for me in away that doesn't work where like
you go to the where every time you go back home, like to the
family. It's so like arch and and like
slapstick and and just not in line with, well, it's.

(35:12):
Weird in mean streets when they're watching the searchers
in mean Streets, that's searchers.
And I always think that's like alike a silly Western from the
50s or something where you biting is like, you know, and
it's like literally like goofy noises.
But I was going to say is that you watch Star Wars and you see
like when Luke comes home and sees like, you know, the plant,

(35:36):
you know, his home has been, youknow, set on fire and his aunt
and uncle have been murdered. It's like almost shot for shot.
Feels like when they come and find that the you know, the
homestead has been set on fire and the searchers.
And I'm like, I, I, I bet it's just part of that, that language
that you grew up with. Or like you watch Spielberg

(35:57):
movies. And then if you watch like a
David Lean movie or Michael Curtis, especially like those
two guys, you go wow, these filmmakers had a huge influence on
him and a great way. Yeah, well, Curtis does that
push in that like really smooth push into a close up.
He's yeah, it's very Curtis is very.

(36:20):
I see a lot of Curtis in the Cohens too.
Just just what he does with the camera.
Just very, very. He has really breaking point is
one of his that I've watched I. Love the breaking point which is
which is to have and have not right?
Yeah, it is. And I've listened.
I've watched that a couple of times kind of in a way where
initially it was just to watch it and now I've, I'm just kind

(36:40):
of like kind of marveling at just the choices in it and how
beautiful it is and how kind of weird and moving those
performances are with him and Patricia Neal and.
John Garfield, right? Yeah.
He's so good. Unbelievable.
It's so atmospheric and beautiful.
I, I no. I no.
That thing where it's like, that's what a movie looks like.

(37:01):
Those are movies and you feel like Mildred Pierce and but you
feel like in those in the thingsthat, you know, we, you and I
have talked about, you know, Spielberg's like the way he does
action sequences, the geography and those things are like, yeah,
he's a master. I mean it's.

(37:22):
Yeah, just just as just as like an architect his shots, right?
Well, he's like the king of shotsequencing.
There's nobody better. Yeah, I would say George Miller
is pretty good and and James Cameron, I always think.
But again, these are the people I grew up with watching Road
Warrior constantly and watching Terminator and Terminator 2

(37:44):
constantly and Spielberg. So it's just kind of like in
your, again, it's like in your DNA when you're putting together
a sequence. And actually I'll say there's a
Sam Raimi too. Sam Raimi, he was the thing that
was like seeing Evil Dead at 14.And I would go, oh, wow, you can

(38:05):
do this on like, no budget. And it was so effective.
It was like punk rock music. Yeah.
And. Then Evil Dead 2 being like OK
now I'm going to do the same thing with the budget now, which
is. Now I'm at the it's like the
Ramones with Phil Spector or something, where it's like, hey,
now we've got the dough and the prestige to do our thing at this
higher level. But those movies are still so

(38:28):
good. And then the one of the actors
in Bury Jesse Hodges, her mom isin the original Evil Dead.
She's the woman that gets raped by a tree.
That's that was she goes, my mom's in the Evil Dead and I go,
she's a woman that gets Ellen Sandweiss is amazing actor and

(38:49):
and she goes, yeah, I grew up inMichigan and my mom was like,
yeah, I did. I was in this horror movie a
long time ago and I might. And she's like, yeah, we didn't
really think about it. And I was like, I had a poster
of that in my room. And I don't think I would be
like, that was the movie for me where I was like, oh, I'm going
to pick up a video camera and goshoot stuff.
Because I you can see how he didit on some level.

(39:10):
Because before that I was like, oh, you need a giant crew and
you need all this stuff. What was that?
What was that for you? Was there a specific moment when
you went, oh, I think I can, I'mmotivated now to go or inspired
to go shoot something on your own?
Or was it just. You know, I, I, I always hear
about those kids who like were making Super 8 movies with their
friends and I, you know, I just,I didn't have friends who wanted

(39:34):
to make movies, so I, I just wrote scripts.
I was obsessed with just readingscreenplays in my teens.
Like I just, I went through all the, all the phases, you know,
the David Mamet phase and the, you know, and, and, and of
course, just read everything theCohens ever wrote.

(39:55):
And yeah, those early Cohen scripts are so interesting
because they're so detailed. Yeah, well, they're written as
pros. Yeah, they are.
Yeah, it's the same with those. I mean, I just found this Herzog
scenarios and it's like the Aguirre, they're so great.
It's just like a short. Story.
Yeah, and the same with Bergman.Yeah, Bergman was big, big, big

(40:16):
for me. Yeah, just, I mean as a
filmmaker, writer, personality, the whole.
Thing and as and those screenplays like I I I loved the
scenes from a marriage screenplay I had that you have.
One I remember I have one of persona and shame.
I remember reading and going like, wow, these scripts are so
beautifully written. And I guess you can because the

(40:39):
the Woody Allen ones. I remember reading an Annie Hall
script that wasn't published. It was like, it might have been
like the UCLA library or something, but but his would
just be like, you know, Annie Hall.
Like Alvey walks in and and seesMax and then Prince's would say
improv. Yeah.
Oh, really? Yeah.

(41:00):
So they meet like improv and then we'll get into then we lead
into this somehow and it would just be all dialogue.
Oh, that's. Great.
I was like, oh, that's interesting.
Oh, that's a good way. And then the Collins, I just
that's where I learned the termspush.
We're pulling them, we're pushing them.
They would say like Tableau, meaning like just like an

(41:21):
interesting wide shot with everything.
And I was like, oh, this is like, really?
It really is like, so helpful. Yeah.
You know, And the Preston Sturgis ones I had that.
I don't know. Did you read those where there's
like the big yeah Preston Sturgis scripts?
And his his autobiography is thebest, too.
Sturgis and Sturgis, that's the.He's so funny.
That's the best one. Yeah, he's one of the best ones.

(41:44):
There are a lot of really great.So you were doing like writing,
just writing scripts and when did it become?
Was it wasn't until you went to AFI that you're like, all right,
I'm going to direct something orwas that?
Well, I went to undergrad first and then I again had to like
drag friends and to into like kind of standing there uselessly
while I did all the jobs, you know, making shorts.

(42:06):
And then at AFI, that was my first time working with like a
crew of people who all had like,their own discipline that they
were committed to. So like, this was their project
as well. And then then you realize, oh,
this is not only is the result better, but it's like not a
joyless, suffocating process. My shit was always my sister's

(42:32):
Karen. Katie, unfortunately.
Like out in the woods and Oklahoma and me all right, you
stand there, I'm going to chase you with a camera and then just
literally just doing, you know, Evil Dead shaky Cam and chase
him going like, wow, you know, I'm doing all that stuff.
And they loved it, but I was like their older brother, so
they had no, they couldn't say anything.

(42:54):
One guy that I was really ripping off was Guy Madden.
Who's somebody? That I've had the chance to work
with. Rumors.
Now, as a producer, yeah, and he's the loveliest guy ever.
But he was a really big hero of mine, especially when I was
first started making shorts. Especially because those films
are are made on on a shoestring,but they're so like, you know,

(43:17):
they're these phantasmagorias, you know?
Yeah, those. Movies are phenomenal.
If people haven't seen Guy Madden's films or what he's
doing now with the Johnson brothers, Evan and Galen.
Yeah, but they did that movie. You guys worked on rumors?
Yeah, but they've been working together for a long time and I,
I, I, I, I just think they're sofunny and just genuinely

(43:40):
brilliant. Yeah, yeah.
You're also the person that turned me on.
Peter Greenway was someone that I never, oh God, could like, get
into, you know, and I remember. Those he's not, he's not
something you get into. He gets into you.
Yeah, he gets into you. Yeah, yeah.
But it was never a thing that I could like.

(44:01):
And then I remember you. You tell me how great you go.
No, man, you should, you know. But you were.
It wasn't like a hard push. Yeah, but you went.
I would give him another shot. And I went back and I actually
really enjoyed the Cook, Thief, Wife, Lover and another one I
watched and I can't remember what it.
Was said into knots, which is pretty brilliant.
He made a he made a film really early on called The Falls, which

(44:22):
is like really fascinating aboutI think it's something like I'm
going to get this wrong with like 88 people who all died and
and in in mysterious ways. Who's who have fall in their
last name. Oh wow, It's like a three hour
wow experiment. I'm the baby of Macon is just.

(44:43):
Oh yeah, pure yeah. It's like a diseased movie, just
like truly misanthropic. I, I feel like the word, I feel
like the mis, I feel like the word misanthropic is applied to,
like it's applied to like Lars von Trier, which I don't agree
with. I think there's too much life in
those films to be actually misanthropic.
But Peter Greenaway, like he's, he's like sucked all the human

(45:06):
personality out of the films. Like they're, they're just, and
I love them, but they're, they're really, really.
And I and I, I just happened to see them when I was like 1213
and it was just a mistake. Like it just, it just really
fucking bothered me and I, I couldn't get them out of my
system for years. It's amazing when you see a
certain thing at the right time,like Clockwork Orange and Taxi

(45:30):
Driver always have a huge impacton me.
Yeah, you just go, well, I saw those, a sleepover.
I'm never the same again and became just kind of obsessed
with movies after that. And Aguirre, Wrath of God's
another one. I think that's why I got that
scenario's book. I've always been just the.
Monkeys crawling all over the. Unbelievable.
But the the POV, that movie is the master of of point of view

(45:53):
of where they just stay on the raft and those shots of the
natives just looking at them and, and any other movie, they
would have gone behind the natives and you would have been
tracking along them and you're with them.
But he doesn't do that. He just stays on the raft.
And I still think one of the most haunting images is when
they leave that horse and it just, he holds on that as like

(46:15):
they just drift away from that horse and you kind of go, well
that thing's about to get, it's going to get eaten in like 5
minutes or something. He, he, yeah.
He's, I mean, so many of his like, experiments or so they
yield like such amazing results,like Heart of Glass where
everybody's hypnotized. Yeah.
You've seen the footage of him hypnotizing the people?

(46:36):
Yeah, it's. Amazing.
It's so. Fucking it's so much work.
Yeah, my my favorite films of his are his documentaries like
Vadim Organa. That's.
A lessons in darkness. My my favorite is Land of land
of Silence and darkness is what it's called.
Yeah, with the with the mute death, blind people.
Yeah, that's like a really. It's beautiful.

(46:58):
It's a tough movie, but it's really beautiful.
Yeah. He just likes such extreme
subjects. Yeah.
Yeah, I think, I think I had a time in high school where it was
like all those things hit. It was like late elementary
school. It was like finding Scorsese and
Kubrick and stuff like that. And then and, and then and

(47:20):
always loving Spielberg from a young age and then, but then
getting to high school, it was Hertzog them vendors, you know,
and then that's when Errol Morris, I saw a thin blue line
in the in a government class. We were learning about the
judicial system and we I thank God this guy, Brady Pringle was

(47:42):
like, I'm going to play this. I'm going to play this movie
that about, no. Then you parody it.
Oh. Yeah.
Documentary Now You even nailed the Philip Glass score.
Like the where you make it even more insistent and repetitive.
That that that Reece Thomas and Alex Buno deserve a lot of
credit for how good those thingscame out there.

(48:04):
The directors. But but yeah, but.
And then I got a chance to, you know, and, and meet Errol Morris
and and, and just for the American Cinematech and he's
amazing. Talk to him and and yeah, that.
And The thing is like, you know,you meet these people and you're
so like kind of in awe of them. And it's like the same, like he

(48:26):
was telling me he's like, I saw Douglas Sirk once at Telluride
and I was so excited. He's my favorite film maker.
And then he watched him my firstfilm, you know, Gates of Heaven,
which is like, I think a masterpiece.
Douglas Sirk went to see it and and hated Gates of Heaven.
He said that was like a slideshow and just destroyed

(48:48):
Errol Morris. He told me.
And it weirdly made me feel like, oh, OK.
Yeah, of course I. I love it.
There's a formalism to those films that are very like he and
and like a like a very subtle, like surrealism.
Totally. That in Vernon, FL or like just

(49:08):
these amazing like works of likeportraiture.
Yeah, I thought about our we have a mutual friend, Dan
Clowes, and Dan is was it? Was it one of our heroes?
He's one of those guys that I go, I can't believe I'm texting
with this guy. I know.
Like Dan, Dan's like my closest friend.
He's he's the he's just the the greatest guy in the world on on

(49:30):
top of being a an absolute genius.
Young genius. Beyond Crumb is clearly the the
most important practitioner of his.
Yeah, he's, he's amazing And, and.
Art. And proves that you can be like
a really nice normal person and still produce stuff that's like,

(49:51):
so when you know, and he's stilldoing it.
I mean his his last book was phenomenal.
Monica, which is masterpiece unbelievable.
It yeah, Monica feels like something of of like a magnum
opus for him, but I but everything he was doing in 8
ball for me was as as important as any film or book.

(50:14):
Yeah, his comic like a weed Joe Ohhh.
Yeah, like the happy fisherman. The happy with the happy
fisherman with with the with thethe fish that's sucking his Dick
all yeah, all the time. And then there's the who's the
hobo with the? Oh, I know you're talking about.
I grew up wanting to make moviesthat felt like a a Dan Klaus
comic. Yeah, I remember reading like a

(50:35):
velvet glove cast and iron on this kid.
That's the greatest I. Was 19 and I lived in Arizona
for like a year and I made friends with these guys who were
really genius artists. And this guy, Andrew Rye, he had
like, he, he had that on his on his floor.
Like we lived like, you know, back then, you just like, you

(50:55):
know, just stuff would be layingon the floor.
And I remember picking it up andreading it and just being like,
I've never read anything like this.
And I was like, can I please take this home?
And I just read it like two or three times and just could not
believe how funny and strange and disturbing and sad and
everything it was. And I just wanted to who's this

(51:16):
guy? Got to meet him recently and
went to his house and was just like he and his wife are just
the two of the loveliest. Erica's is the two of the
loveliest human beings I have ever met.
The best people and Erica you see you see Enid coleslaw, you
see where where ghost world camefrom and it's I mean he has a

(51:38):
few of these dream comics like the golden mommy and just like I
I I don't know, but I'll bet David Chase.
Oh yeah. Like the way.
Yeah, there's something of like Klaus's, like dream language.
It's like a boon well thing in there too, and I don't know if
Dan likes boon well. Dan loves, I'm sure he loves

(52:00):
Boon. Well.
But there is a boon. Well thing there.
But do. You have any stories like then?
Do you feel comfortable? No, I'm trying to think of one
that is really funny. But my my thing at SNL was
always like, Oh my God, Scorsese's doing a bit and he
was so nice, but I just went into his dressing room and just

(52:22):
immediately just was like, I'm going to go see a Shirley Clarke
movie tomorrow. I just wanted to rap with him so
badly about movies and I could tell he was.
Like, prove that you're on the level.
Yeah, And I could tell he's like, good.
He's like, Oh yeah, you're great.
Yeah, you're great. But and then the the producer
kind of just pulled my shirt like go get out of his dressing
room, please. So that's a thing.

(52:42):
And I've seen him since then. It was great.
But that's one of those things like for two weeks I'm like,
what the fuck was wrong with me?Why did I do?
I've only met him so many times and I and I every time I'm
paralyzed by the the need to make him love me.
Yeah, in the same way. And I worked with Spielberg and
like, you know, you know, similar kind of thing.

(53:03):
And and then there's certain people you become friends with,
like the South Park guys meant alot to me.
And then I got to become friendswith them.
And then Alfonso Cuaron, seeing his films, like Seeing You 2
Mama and Children of Men, I justwere like, wow, this guy is
amazing. And now we're friends.
And yeah, he's a really nice guy.
He's such a nice. He's like a, he's like Don

(53:24):
Rickles. Yeah, he's funny.
He's unbelievably funny, like insanely funny.
Like you would never watch Roma and think that that guy is so
good at burning people like. Maybe a little Princess though
you can. A little Princess you can see in
little Princess, but just like very sweet, you know, just very

(53:44):
and like, you know, you'd watch The reason I became friends with
him is he saw Barry's and just wanted man, you're a great
director, you know, and was so nice and but actually now I
think that George Miller, I met him.
He was so freaking nice. I've.
Never met him. Yeah, he's amazing.
He's such a nice dude, such a but, yeah.
But there's others where you just see him from afar and
you're like, I'm not going to go.
Did you see Furiosa? I'm sure you did.

(54:05):
Yeah. I love Furiosa so much.
I saw that just after we wrappedEddington, Darius and I went
went to go see Furiosa. It's great.
And we were like, we were both just.
We were so giddy coming out of the.
Theater I I saw it with Allie and we just loved it.
We just wanted, man, what a, what a.
Vision. Yeah, he's just, his vision is.

(54:28):
And again, it doesn't feel like it's all kind of self-taught,
doesn't feel like it. Who's making.
That film at 80, you know. It's 80.
And when you talked about movies, you know, he's just
like, he really likes MASH. He's a Battle of Gears and movie
MASH. Yeah.
Well. Mash is so great.
That's. The funny thing you never see
MASH and Battle of Algiers and go oh that guy will make road

(54:50):
warrior. Do you know what I?
Mean and that's although maybe those are the those are
actually. Actually, and that's.
Exactly right. That's true.
As I said it out loud, maybe you're right.
Yeah, that's true. I just remember I was like, oh,
OK. And Clockwork Orange, too.
He likes that one. Is there anything else that I
want to say to you? Talks about.
Talks about how much I love Barry.

(55:11):
I said everything I wanted to say well.
You're so generous, thank you man.
No, it's all true. Yeah, this is going to say Bill
Hader sucks Ori Astra's Dick on.Does that mean you guys will
find my next movie? That's all we needed.
That's why I did this.