Nervous Laughter with Ari Aster & Joaquin Phoenix

Topics covered include: struggling to take a compliment, the pressure of the clock, unorthodox techniques for playing a character in physical pain, worst days on set, resisting comfort, Ari’s snappy attitude, Joaquin fainting mid-take with Patti Lupone, the experience of brutal humiliation, old school SFX makeup tricks, crying in front of the crew while filming Midsommar, doing weird shit in attics, and getting each other through moments when you don’t know what the f-ck to do.

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Hey and welcome back to the a24 podcast.
If you've been listening for a while, you know, the format we
almost never pair two people from the same project together
and we encourage guests to talk about pretty much anything other
than their movie or show. This conversation is a little
bit different. Knowing how close are we a stir
and Joaquin? Phoenix got during the grueling
production of bows afraid, we saw a rare opportunity to let a

(00:27):
director and actor speak candidly about They're creative
Dynamic and the very unique set of obstacles.
They created, and then overcame while on set, we hope you
enjoyed the episode and don't miss Bo is afraid opening this
weekend in theaters Nationwide. Hi, I'm Maria.
Esther and I am contractually obliged to do this podcast 4824

(00:48):
since they've funded all my movies, but they never give me
enough time and I'm Joaquin, Phoenix.
And I will not be speaking at all.
And I'm going to be putting everything on Ari.
Through this entire conversation.
And there's no point in me agreeing to do this because

(01:09):
Everybody knows. That t, we are.
Angels, are by one asshole. What?
That that, most truthful things that are walking, and then, hey,
how are you hungover? Yeah, and I'm not over you, but
you're not, you just sick of it in this light, but they're not
at a goat. Well, well, I hope they feel

(01:31):
good. I mean there were a lot of
friends there, so I've had one friend that's in the movie and
they they texted I had a blast. That's good.
Yes, I don't know if that's saidthat.
Is that is that says Is here. I don't know what the hell it
is. Yeah, it sounds like a variation
on like, I'm at look great. Yeah, yeah, so this is what my

(01:51):
preference is for people. I know not to see anything.
What I meant just because I don't want to have to go through
that process, right? Like that's the worst thing
about going to the formality. Screening is like the menu after
as we will come up, they have tosay something.
It's always uncomfortable. Yeah, no.
And then yeah. It's I also just don't believe

(02:13):
anything unless somebody comes up and and they haven't been
like brought up right? And I tell me what they actually
thought. But then I usually I find that
the people who have told me thatthey don't like something, I
did, I like obsess over them andthe next thing I make I'm trying
to please them. Uh-huh.

(02:34):
Which is really I think is a good policy to be honest as much
as I can. Yes, I think so.
If they're still changes that can be made.
Yeah, you can offer some thoughts just not useful, right?
But once it's done you just that's why you go I had a blast.
Yeah yeah you got to say it whenthey can actually still make the

(02:56):
change otherwise you're just like haunting them.
Those villains. Yeah that I do think that once
somebody tells you what they really think especially if they
don't actually like something then if they ever do like
something that's like It's suddenly valuable run into you.
It's mostly valueless. When somebody says something

(03:16):
nice right? Yeah now yes no.
Sure. I mean--' also.
If somebody says if somebody says something like a compliment
about something my impulses to say name, five other
performances, they got a really get burn movies, right?

(03:38):
Just so you can completely discount their their, their
Judgment. Yes.
Yes. If somebody ever does say
something nice about me, it's ittends to be couched between two
other people that they like, right?
Like I might like it's not as I really like this.
It but like, oh if only that andthen this other thing that I
fucking hate doesn't to movies, I've loved in the last like,

(04:00):
five years took that night. Yeah, it's just, it's probably
best to not interact with your friends when they've seen, I'm
going to be afraid. That's, that's my opinion.
I had can. Tickets last night to invite
people. Did you invite new?
I know, buddy. Yeah.
No, of course not. It's also like do you want to
come and watch us pass feel so weird?

(04:22):
Ellen, Ellen, come see the movie.
No, especially in that context, you know, it's not really going
to see a movie. It's like, it's suddenly an
obligation. There's no good version of this
and then new, whatever the situation Thunder.
Why them? Hey, I know.
I know. Let them find you if they did.
You do like this? Don't tell you about if you do
go. See, I just don't tell me why,

(04:43):
anybody, who knows? You knows not to say anything
nice. We'll just anything.
I started really don't want to get into the discussion.
You tend to have like a window where like you can take
something in and then like the door, the door slams, you can
see it in the eyes. It's, there's like that you get
like sick suddenly. Yeah.
I don't know what, I don't know.What what good comes of it.

(05:05):
Well, it's something that you want, right?
But then, once you get it, it's I don't know that it's something
that Um, what I want, I want youto be happy.
I want to feel like we're, we feel like we're getting the
stuff when we're working and then after that it's like you
want it to be received well enough to where you can keep
getting and you get another job right.

(05:28):
But beyond that I mean nothing anybody can say, whatever little
up to like what the experience is.
So it's kind of like it's a strange talking about me and
something they need this three hour.
Film. It was like four months for us.
Yeah. If we're you much longer of

(05:48):
course. And any conversation just feels
like I don't know and if the laughter one thing that is a
little bit, I wouldn't say different about you but
something that's very specific about you is that you really do
need it to be in it experience. Meaning you need to kind the
flag. It feels like you become like
kind of chemically aligned with whatever you're doing and that

(06:12):
That's, that's not always the case and so I can imagine that
there's like almost no way to really detach The Experience on
set for you from whatever you'reseeing or rather that that they
can kind of maybe exist. Totally separately.
That's a completely different. Yeah.
And it's almost no real value and and convening in some ways,

(06:35):
right? But but you watched it, you wash
it a couple times. I did know, I did.
I'd is it, huh? But I don't know what my the
feelings are so complex when I'mwatching his I'm a force
remembering what was happening in those does days, right?
You know, and the humbles nothing, you know, nothing is he

(06:58):
can live up to that that the experience yeah that's like the
first month in the edit from me especially on this one.
I was very depressed kind of Snappy for the first month as we
were like assembling it. But then the post process is so
long that I do get I'm not sure if it's like objectivity but But
you know, but I separate from the experience of shooting the
film, but it takes a while it takes.

(07:19):
In this case, I think my bad mood lasted for like a month.
But it took me a few months to fully separate from those
memories because it was a very was a long.
I mean, it felt long it was it was like both not long enough
and like just very arduous that shoot.
Yeah. It was.
Yeah. Did you know that going into?

(07:41):
It was going to be that so difficult.
Yeah. Only because I knew what the
goal was. I knew that that I wanted to
make something like, really kindof dense and big.
And, and when we were putting the schedule together, that it
dawned on me, that that every day was going to be like, pretty
rough. But that was the case on my

(08:02):
first two films where we had farfewer days and and fewer
resources, even though I feel like on all of them, we've had
to like really stretch them. As far as we could.
I mean, even you said in the beginning, like how are we ever
going to do this in this amount of days?
Yeah, no I knew the need to schedule was tough and knew
there was a lot to do. I didn't anticipate that it was

(08:24):
going to be so I really didn't anticipate as myself physically
and emotionally took and I can Idon't think that I kind of
numbering this scriptures are like I'm just gonna kind of walk
around they have a phone call because like I really didn't
didn't expect that. Then I think we're doing, we're

(08:44):
doing one. See where I was are you sure
gets coverage trimmed, right? Go into Kris and Rogers ruined
admitted to make a call at call the lawyer and I went in and now
we realize that I didn't feel like I was injured.
Remember that? Yeah, a psycho fuck was that
one? The clipping started?

(09:05):
Yes. Yeah and it would just like, oh,
it's white. Alright, older, in East of their
actors limping and Survey. I didn't do it in a knot then
tick way and I said, fuck so supposed to have this wound like
in my stomach right. Yeah.
It feels like more kind. Who is the prop guy?

(09:29):
It was like just handled everything.
The best proof guy who's so great.
Yeah, I was like, do you have like, literally there's the
there's the lose Clips got like bind.
Papers together. And I'd got that I clipped on my
stomach and I need it for the rest of the shoot, and then it

(09:51):
was there. But you also, you have a hand
wound, and you also had like a, I think it was like a pin, like
you put a pin against your palm for the rest of the film, and
you wrapped it up. And I mean, it would, the hand
was wrapped in bandage. Yeah, yeah.
For now, well, because just about, you don't use the hand,
right? Can like see their movies all

(10:11):
the time, where somebody Injured.
Men are like grabbing something and you got all, you couldn't
move your hand like that. There's just like a reminder.
Yeah. I was like there's some reasons
made this piece of session plastic with tax on it says,
press on the palm. I completely forgot about that.
Yeah, well then it's not ethic tation either.
Then you're not worrying about how do I make it look?
Like I was stabbed because you actually have like, you know, A

(10:34):
Shard of something. Yeah, I mean towards the end, I
time shooting the end again so accustomed to this.
This clip and it wasn't anythinganymore.
I just remember I was like more time.
This just like it's not working anymore.
Like it's horrible and I was youknow, all covered and Barks and

(10:54):
black blue and he does I have something new and he gotten
velcro just like that the hard part of the velcro, not the soft
part include that to both sides of the clip as a fan with put it
on its head that and I was like a motherfucker as of course
Appreciative and I know I neededit but by the end, as I do not

(11:18):
want to clip it back on and thatwas I mean that would have been
two weeks into shooting. I think that's when you started
the star of doing that. And then we shot for 13 weeks
and total. So so for 11 weeks, you had that
so stupid. Now, but it really worked, it
really worked. And there was a real, there's
like a markets difference between What you were doing

(11:39):
before that? And after said, yeah, this is
already kind of blown up in my face for starting to talk about
this. But I don't think I was aware of
how much you're putting your body through, like how exhausted
you were, and how how rough the shoot was for you until what
happened near the end of the shoot with Patti, where we were

(12:04):
on, we're on her. I don't want to like, say what
what the scene is. Because it's it.
It's a spoiler but those are intense scene for both of you
but the coverage was on her. So it was it was a shot that was
on her and you know, your hand is in frame and you were helping
her through it by basically likeshe you come talking her through
like holding her breath or the take but you were holding your

(12:26):
breath. Just I mean just just in
solidarity. I don't know.
Just to like help and anyway your hand fell out of frame and
I heard like a thunk. And I wasn't able to put it
together, it was very confusing.And then I came out because I
was around the corner and you had people all around you and I

(12:49):
did not understand what had happened until I realized that
people were, like, bending down to like touch you and help you.
And you are letting them touch. You like, that was the bad sign
was that you are you were allowing that kind of attention
because you, you would never allow that kind of like doting,
like you really Eating it. And you you looked worried like

(13:10):
you didn't know where you were like you'd be really fainted and
your first reaction was laughtercorrectly.
It was nervous. That's the nervous laughter.
I know I'm in love, I was in Terry.
No I got what what really made me uncomfortable is a who it was
maybe around RAC chamber, who was it?

(13:33):
The operator I just saw them walk by black.
Mgs of the morphin camera and just sit down on the couch and
just stare at the floor. And like, I realized that it's
Hugh, there was, this looks reaction where he was just
terrified, and he just like walked and sat down by that

(13:55):
River. He's staring off.
Like they didn't understand whathappened.
And of course, it was fun and it's all sounds.
So dramatic, man, wearing a big deal, we've been
hyperventilating all day, do allthis physical stuff like all day
long. Just restricting airflow.
Yeah, and yeah I mean the it's so funny but it felt traumatic

(14:16):
it felt it. It kind of I think we were both
sort of in this. I mean the sounds so like I
don't know, the sounds like bullshit but it kind of felt
like we were in some sort of a trance for a lot of that felt
like just kind of very very focused we in the same way and I
think we were both, you know, kind of just fixed on doing it
the right way, whatever that meant and so on.

(14:39):
In realize how much you had put yourself through until then, I
guess, effectively how much I had put you through and well,
that way I'd put you through it too and those those last, and
with, but three weeks of nights,right?
Like, the last fool is were nights.
Every time we switched a world because the film is effectively,

(15:02):
it's really six worlds, but I think five that you went
through, because one of them is the cruise and then that's not
with you. But I feel like we spent about
Two weeks about about 10 days ineach environment.
And then it was usually like in the last, like, two, three days
that we started to get like intoa Groove and kind of where it
became comfortable. And then it was usually that

(15:24):
like he's whatever like he's hadset in and confidence that
fucked us on the first day of every new environment, as like a
guy with like without fail. The first day was a good
disaster faster. The Stay with red with Roger and
Grace. Like I do.
I think they were like, really worried about what said that
they had my carotid. They shouldn't you.

(15:46):
And I were both like totally lost.
It looked like we didn't even know how to communicate because
we because I think we didn't I think we like we had a way of
communicating and in one place and then suddenly we're in a new
place, there's a new tone. And I think I think for the two
of us the worst day with was Roger and Grace but for me like
just individually, it was the first day in the forest that's

(16:08):
where I I like that's where I hit this, like, really terrible
wall and I couldn't like, thank I just felt like I was really
drowning, I don't know what happened because, you know,
there was a shot list. There's like a plan, we weren't
even. There was no need to like,
actually deviate from it or like, figure out anything new.
But I truly like, I just couldn't I just hit like a total
wall and I that felt like a 10-hour panic attack that day.

(16:32):
But that day, what would you first?
The first the first day was justyou walking with Hayley Squires
and All right. And yeah.
And then I know y'all. Did you just just first entering
the right? The camp.
And it was so simple. It was really simple and I like
I couldn't do it and people would come up to me saying, are
you okay? And I just say I'm not okay, I,

(16:53):
I can't breathe. I don't anyway that I still
don't have like insight into what happened that night.
Except for the fact that it was just, it was just another pivot
that I wasn't like actually prepared for and then I mean,
obviously the yeah, the whateverthat final scene is there was a
Big change their store. And then I forget the first day
at at Mona's, but yeah argue toobut it's yeah, of course it all

(17:17):
becomes a blur as it as it should.
I mean, you know, you are, you're just like swimming in it.
Yes. All-encompassing, right.
I remember I was so appreciativebecause you working so hard, but
I love to like work on weekends.I love to rehearse.
I don't like plan out and because we had these like two

(17:38):
weeks We would get together on the weekends usually in the
location and kind of like roughly go over it because we
had such limited time or just really wanted to like understand
the space as much as possible. And still even with that things
change, you know when you're shooting as soon as here always
available and willing and wanting to do that because like

(18:01):
I need to get my head around it.To I I needed that to that was
like sort of a revelation for for me too.
Learn, that's how you worked because I was expecting before
we went into this for you to be less Technical.
And that, what do you do looks to me?
So often to be like, completely spontaneous and completely

(18:21):
unworked out. And so, I Was preparing before
we shot the film to like, be ready to just have everything
upended. And like, that was a really
exciting thing to find that thatthat that you were so
intentional. I don't know.
I'm not not not to like break the magic of it, but for me to
find that You're able to do things.
Like so many times over was was really like kind of shocking to

(18:45):
me and I think there is a point at which it starts to dry up and
at that point there is I think aneed to okay we have to like
break this now and start over but that that was a really that
was kind of a is it was like a surprise to me but also I mean

(19:05):
I've I feel like I'm now repeating something that I've
already started. Saying a lot but it's true that
whatever that process was whatever we landed on for me,
like just feels very much. Like, a way that I don't want to
stop working again really felt useful.
I hold these. I don't just walk in with like,
and just everything is spontaneous, like, with no idea

(19:28):
what I like to have like 15 possibilities.
I just don't choose which one inadvance of actually shooting and
I think is like it go. You at all old.
Maybe said we have to get in thespace and then maybe it was this
feeling, I don't know, right now, sitting in my apartment,
reading the script. I imagine this, this is the

(19:48):
feeling that I have, but that feeling inevitably will change.
So I can't, I can't go inside aswell as me.
I don't even know what the, you know up there.
The set looks like yet and that,of course, changes everything.
So it's like, yeah. I guess it's just like, you have
like your thoughts and, like, your hopes for something.

(20:09):
And then she just see what transpires and what feels good.
Like I make decisions I do this.I still do this on every movie.
So embarrassing. I'm going to admit this to you.
There are times where I'm going through the script and I got
some II. I got it all fuck, I got it, and

(20:31):
I'm like, I'm you my balls. I'm like, oh my God, I'm
actually, I'm actually dead. This is going to be here.
Going without fail, those ideas are always the worst, terrible
feels like a movie and I just had like this brief moment of of

(20:52):
confidence and feeling good about myself.
I think I belong here and then just immediately humbled and
lost and during Ogawa, don't what am I?
Because I thought I had a good idea and it's the worst idea.
Yeah. And Usually what I what I've
learned is out of that comes comes something out of that

(21:15):
desperation out of that like brutal humiliation because
that's what it feels like. When you're the center of me,
the focus of 50 people and your do something all.
It's just so humiliating. No.
I mean well the I do know that we that we kept every time we

(21:37):
kind of hit the Whatever like you know, the new all-time low
was the feeling was always like,yeah, we got cocky like oh shit,
we really like, we thought we knew what we were doing here and
it just like died on the vine and then but I but with you too,
I remember that. I did a couple times that I

(22:01):
betrayed the fact that I had a plan like that, I that I kind of
was maybe Not subtle enough or that I really was just trying to
impose something. And I kind of would give you
something close to blocking and that's where it was just like,
you got upset, you got really mad and and it but in a way that

(22:24):
was that that I'd end up findinglike very bracing and exciting
was like, okay yeah, we cannot go into this with like some set
plan because even I think you you got especially angry one day
because the blocking was right, and you knew you would have
gotten there. But now it felt like something
that was a directive and you couldn't feel your way into it,

(22:45):
and I totally under like understood that, it just
shouldn't be prescribed like that and that became something
very I think there were morningswhere like we would hit a wall
and you would hit a wall. And in the beginning I at first
like that that was scary to me and I thought like oh fuck I've

(23:07):
lost them like shit. It, he's not coming back like he
hates me. You felt like that in the
beginning? I was shit.
He hates me and then not not long into the shoot.
I started to recognize a, oh, God, we're okay good.
Like there's a problem here. Whatever that is we have to
break through something, otherwise, we will stay here,
and it will stay dead. And every time there was

(23:29):
something of a breakthrough whether it works or not, I just
remember that it like came to like new life and felt at least,
like Electric Yeah, not false. And for me, it broke away from
what was in my head, which is really valuable.
Because, even now, when I see the film, I'm able to, to enjoy

(23:49):
a lot of it without feeling, like, picking it apart.
Like, oh, why did I do that? Why did I do that?
Because it kind of left my handsin a lot of ways, you know, it
really, it just turned into something, not something else,
but it kind of like deep and done set, and that doesn't
always happen. Yes.
Well, I mean, sometimes, you know, I know there were so many

(24:13):
this summer jobs were well knownwhen that happens when they hit
the wall that I move. Every just talk to myself during
just just do it. Just do it.
Just it's so easy to walk in. Do they say the thing?
Hit the mark to it and I just I can't I you know, just can't do
it. It's like no one.
It's just when it's there. It just makes me feel like it's

(24:34):
just not that's a by numbers. Yeah, just put that thing and I
II just have a hard time and I think there are other actors
like. Yeah, that's what this.
But I can imbue it with with allof this feeling and I'll make I
don't know what they do but I don't I don't know how to I
don't know how to do that. Like unless it really feels like

(24:55):
that it has energy in a discovery.
Something that's happening to me, not unlike some fucking
bullshit. And you know, it was not like
some technique or and he I don'tknow what it is, right?
Just You see there get like either you feel inspired and
excited and feel like it's dangerous or it feels just like
fucking boring and you're just making a movie, you know, you're

(25:18):
like, well, I don't do that. I feel like people listening,
like, could like, it could almost sound like difficult.
Like, what what, what? You're describing, like, you
being difficult, but it was always actually, the feeling was
you were like, kind of forcing anew engagement.
I was challenged to like engage in a new way, with whatever the
material was and That's really like something that's hard to do

(25:42):
when you're like under the pressure of the clock you know
to like stop and say wait a minute like let's stop working
for a second which is actually where the, you know, real work
begins. You know like let's let's
actually reconsider This and like this thing.
We've known for a long time. Like this is what's going to
happen in this scene like this is what has to happen in the

(26:03):
scene which means that it's kindof died.
You know? It's like it just it's just a
fact right right. And so we're just Playing out a
fact. How do you kind of?
I mean, for me, the feeling was like, yeah, how do I get back to
whatever that feeling was when Ifirst wrote it, right?
But so how do we like kind of rewrite this thing?
Even though it's really about, honoring, whatever it is.
But yes, but the only way to honor it is to try to in some

(26:24):
way if you can, like reset the way you are looking at it
reinvigorate, whatever it is, you know?
Yeah. And I think that it's, it's not
just us. And I think for everybody on
set, You don't know precisely what's going to happen.
We know what's gonna happen but there's the potential that

(26:46):
somebody moves over here insteador at the mic and there's like
this Focus From the entire crew,right?
And we all are kind of putting all of our effort into this
moment and that creates an energy that is really powerful
and important like those in the things that I, that I think
that's what I notice and in, like, it in this film and thing

(27:08):
in movies too. I like is just like an energy
and a focus. So of what maybe when it's just,
when everyone knows precisely what we're doing and we're just
hitting marks. That's the same thing as do.
Three takes you just human nature like eventually you start
kind of people or just like looking at their phones or
their, you know, and you see it be seeing you.

(27:30):
You feel it when you're watchinga film that was made in that
Spirit. Like it's very, you know, it's
like it's like playing dress up.It's a costume party.
Yeah, well, I On this one, I felt for a couple weeks that you
like, didn't know, if you could trust me, and I even remember on
the first day, you did somethingreally surprising to me, it was

(27:51):
like a scene where you're supposed to be like, you know,
doing one thing and you just sort of did another thing.
It was when you're supposed to be packing and then you just
sort of sat next to the suitcaseand I and it was just like, just
really lonely and is that like felt like Bo, you know, and it's
like, oh my God, that's great. And so I I was very enthusiastic
about it. And then you said, would you

(28:12):
come over here and you pulled meto the side of the set and you
leaned, any just got here. Just some fucking kid.
That just like, so excited to have Joaquin Phoenix and your
said what? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, you know, like like a big act on your settings, like, I'm
morally, I don't have time and Isaid, yes, but I was very

(28:37):
excited. Follow.
You just did because because youwere excited by this thing that
happened. Yeah.
And you asked like are always like anything I do are you just
gonna like anything? You do is just going to be so
great because it's like because you can't believe that you got
Commodus on your said you're like yeah I'm not so excited
that Johnny Cash is like in here.

(28:58):
Yes I was I was just yeah worried that that dumb.
Yeah like I want to be I want tobe challenged as night.
I think like I was I was scared that he had that he just really
like oh this is so exciting, I'mmaking this and I'd miss this
meeting. I was like I'm not doing what if

(29:18):
I don't I haven't and I just come from a place of such
insecurity writer. I'm just asking like what am I
doing? I don't know what I'm doing.
I'm fucking terrible. And then you're like, I'm really
excited by this. I'll think.
Oh no. We're in fucking trouble ahead.
Yeah, but I learned very, very quickly.
How how perceptive you you were and how How dedicated and

(29:39):
hardworking you are and that wasvery exciting to me and it was
really super early on which the Catholic immediately, it was
intense, right? We had like, a couple days.
Were kind of like walking down the hallway and stuff.
Right. Wasn't like him and then it.
Yeah. Then they got like intense very

(29:59):
quickly but I you know, I love the way the team are, you talked
about things and that first, thefirst big team was called
Caught, you know, on the phone, calling calling Mom.
I had. And that was, yeah, I was I just
wasn't there yet, right? Just like really work with me to
get there in that scene. And I thought from from that

(30:21):
moment on I like, I never have it, but I was like, I think I
know where there was a great thing.
We're at the present, the conversation you said, oh, and
then just say, we can fix this, we could fix this and her such a
great line and it really just help me.
I didn't know how the scene was supposed to end and that really

(30:42):
helped me just saying that. Yeah, I remember that scene was
half the day was the first half of the day with you.
On the couch, the you would originally designed differently
the shot, right? You're standing and you were Kim
was going to like dollars Jenny,Kim past me and like spin around
or something that was when you were calling the landlord.
And we did do that. It was still gonna be pretty
still. I think there might have been

(31:03):
like a creep involved like on the like in the cameras on the
dolly it was creeping in or it might not have been in.
I have on honestly been just a very like a static close up with
you standing but then he really felt like you wanted to sit for
that. Yeah I was well I just assumed I
was sitting like this isn't likethings.

(31:23):
Like I don't, I never even that like looking back on it, I guess
it didn't say that in the script.
And for some reason, I read the script, I just what I see
immediately that I just was like, I'm sitting on this couch
and because I thought that he just Like, I still like his the
just becomes deflated as he's inthis conversation.

(31:44):
Literally, give us later. I feel like it was tightening.
It was like getting Tighter and Tighter physically.
Yes, it just had, but by the endyou're just like out.
But yes, it is. It's like a pound shrinking
shrinking. Yeah, which I was like it is it
wouldn't even make sense. Then you have our area?
I don't know. I don't know why.
And then I really I love that shot that you came up with

(32:07):
really push errands. Under mean, as I said remember I
was like I think that I just keep kind of just a talking.
I'm just going leaning or we hada meeting forward and your life
of just move push the camera. Come underneath you.
What? Yeah that that felt like very
that was very quick when I saw you doing that with your body.

(32:28):
It felt like, yeah, we have to come.
We just stay with you. Somehow we have to kind of keep
kind of, you know, keep invadingyour space until we're like in
your nose. I actually, when we Herded, the
film to IMAX like that was when I got excited about the format,
was in that shot because it's just like it's so I mean just
like Ian you and on that screen and feels like really perverse

(32:50):
to just be that close to this noworks out.
Really well that that love seeing was that with them.
They like bad, shame job. Then I do and it's like those
are sometimes like details that never really show up in a movie,
you know, that are just kind of settled.
But you just What do because, you know, it helps you write

(33:11):
was, but then I actually like, when I'm in the therapists
office and the beginning, there were just like these hairs on
her own by neck, but just like our Miss Channing.
And I on Ox, I really saw it andI just love that detail so much.
I thought it said so much about him and and it really really
worked. We we captured it Colin, Colin

(33:34):
Penman. Right?
The makeup. A whose use amazing and there is
a lot there to track because there's so much damage that you
go through over the course of the film like it in.
Yeah. We had to make a lot of like
very strict decisions early on but after you get hit by the car
what you know after you go through the glass after you.

(33:56):
Yeah. Like what are the areas, very
good and collaborative. I mean, it's it's Joy when you
work with people that very good at what they do and are coming
up with things like Inventing things you saying, but we, but
can it be this? And like I remember he was
using, I was like looking at thecat.

(34:18):
Sounds like, I think that it hasto it has to like, darken, and
scab as it goes on in that kind of like, scab what?
Um, yeah. This if you like we're just
putting on these he scrapes and the same thing.
And he ended up put on putting coffee grounds, like sticking
them to the wound, and it lookedlike it.

(34:38):
Like scabbing over and he kept coming up with this of like just
old tricks that I can make up Artist as you know.
And so we really have the opportunity to like utilize.
Yeah, and I think he really enjoyed that, you know, really
being in on these discussions layers such a joy to to get a

(35:00):
group of people together and to create problems and then try to
solve them. As that's like I thought the
most most fun that And when it'ssomething this stupid, it's like
there's a real language. Nate just like shit is get as
much money as you can together and then just light it on fire,

(35:20):
I'll be weird. Such an amazing crew and they
were fucking awesome and it wasn't amazing, right?
That's just a church Montreal. Yeah, it looks great play
everyone. Incredible know, me too.
Yeah, we're really, really lucky.
There was some nice, the art team was incredible.
The camera, the camera crew. Really, like, I really had a
hard time leaving the end. I really felt like that was, you

(35:45):
know, the platitude of felt, youknow, 50, like a family but it
really did by the end. Yeah, I'm nervous.
I'm his fucking weird shit that we were doing well, in the
Attic. That's some weird shit.
Oh, yeah, doing it's so wild andof the puppets.
Not really in the movie anymore,we moved mostly to CG.
But yeah, with that giant puppetaccount for two.

(36:08):
Days of Jeeves. Yeah shooting and stabbing this
giant I can just you know Madness just a show just fucking
Madness and it's so difficult, come in 7:00 in the morning, you
go. So what is the day?
What are we doing today? And how do we put ourselves in

(36:29):
that place because we can't justlike walk in and just shoot?
Like it's just a scene especially this because it is so
stupid that like you know, the magic trick, if you Actually
achieve it is, is to somehow like in Gross, somebody in this
thing. That's, that's so, so exactly
dumb. No, I mean, that's that bears
thing is like, if you allow yourself the step back for a

(36:52):
moment, you go. This is fucking ridiculous.
I'm going home. I can't do this and you have to
do the opposite. If D completely commit to this,
and I was young like this is notgoing to work.
I'm going to laugh. I can't, I visit No way that I
can with Nathan, he laughed a lot.
Oh, fuck. You know, that a certain.

(37:15):
There's no way you can get through a take and he's like,
one of those guys, but, you know, he takes pride and
kidding, you couldn't hear the laugh, but he was so good.
Yeah, absolutely. And a need an English is a great
face is stupid because I remember, we were me name.
It was sitting outside and between takes Of the paint

(37:40):
scene. You know, I don't even know how
to describe what it's like because they're sitting outside.
There's not many places to go, right.
There was just this like one area where we could sit and so
we're together and in some ways you're doing this scene with
somebody, and you don't want to look at them.
Like you don't want to be aroundthem in between takes almost

(38:01):
because it's just like just feels ridiculous and you just
don't want to like get into small talk and But we just work
together. We in our choice and there's
like we're sitting in silence. I could look the other and she
was just like red in the face and I was like, what we do is so

(38:22):
and she said, stupid, it's just so stupid.
There are like you're fucking right.
The only way to describe it, as really ridiculous.
I supposed to ask you about likeyou Zurich and shit, tell me
about sound design. Come on to town, doesn't.
Yeah, tell me how what that process was like.

(38:44):
I don't know. I mean, Paul shooed the sound
design and he's great. He's really, he's so smart and
so like her to sleep. Hey, I mean, is this just
linking those boys in the world?Yeah, probably.
Okay. Goodbye.
Love you, man. Well, since you've talked about
my little spell, I think it's only fair.

(39:09):
To reveal one of your most troubled moments was sad.
Oh, I know you're going to, I know it water.
It's the bedroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We'll go ahead. I'm not Mom.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well no, that was it, there's itextremely difficult.

(39:29):
I mean, we know is very really rough rough week and I cheat
I've really struggled with that one there and beginning.
And we were talking about bad first day as that.
That was the first day now I'm remembering.
Yeah, so it. No, it was another.
Yeah, it's another terrible Tuesday.
Yeah, and, um, I remember, I could not just one of those

(39:51):
things where you go. I know that I'm supposed to do
this. I'm literally incapable of it.
Like I'm literally incapable of,I don't know what, I don't know
what to do. Yeah.
And of course Looking back on it.
It makes total sense that you wouldn't know what to do in that
situation, right? Yeah.

(40:12):
Like how do you, how do you havea plan?
How do you function in that situation as the person they
took the real person? The character, and I remember
though that it was, it was a real struggle and you, you just
broke, you totally broke it. You just went to the fucking

(40:34):
Edge and you just Apparently Jack and everybody left.
The room is super uncomfortable and your emotional and I felt
terrible that I might be somehowresponsible for it, but I
remember you saying I can't re conceive of this right now

(40:59):
because I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough to just come
up with my mouth. I laugh like If your fucking
mind, I couldn't believe that. That's how you felt because I
had so much faith in you to be able to help us get out of
whatever the problem was. And it caught up with something

(41:19):
and I couldn't I just I could I was so I was so surprised that
that was your feeling like I didn't anticipate that.
I'm sorry. First align, those are about it.
I don't remember saying that butI'm sure I mean I Yeah we got it
was like around take 20 actuallyI mean in in retrospect like we

(41:42):
we actually were we were furtheralong than it felt but that was
just a day where I felt like thepressure of the whole production
was like, you know, just too much on that day.
It was really. I mean, we were deep into it,
that was like, 50 days into shooting or something or 55 days
into shooting. That was just, I mean, I had one

(42:05):
of those days. On Midsummer where I just got
there the morning and people were like looking at mates and
they walk and it was like time for me to, you know, like give
directives and explain what we were about to shoot.
And I had my plan, you know, I knew exactly what we were going
to do is is actually pretty simple.
It's basically like it was kind of a dance scene, so it was all

(42:26):
choreographed. Like I did, there is nothing.
I had to like conceive of at themoment, but I was just facing
the whole crew and they're all looking to me.
Expectedly and I just had I justturned around and then like
started crying and so like they're watching this like this
guy's back like just kind of like rise and fall and it did he

(42:47):
went like 30 minutes. I just think I couldn't get out
of it but it's really, you know,it's it's not even emotional.
It's like just it's like a nervous Yang.
It's like your nervous system isjust like yeah, it just it take
that you tap out and that that'swhat happened, that day with
with you. Is that I just hit that same.
Wall whereas just like the even if things were like going

(43:08):
smoothly and we were it would have been working.
I still feel like you know, anything could have set me off
that day. I remember driving in and just
feeling like I can't I can't I need like a day.
I need some sleep or something but but still even like but in
retrospect I think of that wall that we kind of both hit because

(43:30):
you hit the same wall like several takes earlier and so I
was really just trying to support you And help you.
And it just turned out that I, Icouldn't support anybody that
day, but then after that, I don't know.
Like, then it turned into one ofour best days.
It brought us back together. I think we were kind of, like,
another sides of the room for the, you know, for that that
first half of the day and then, yes, I did.

(43:52):
I cried that. That's what you haven't said,
isn't, I was crying. Yeah, I always find those
moments since sound so callous, but like really invigorating.
It's because I know that there'sSo much.
Shilling in the room and it's awful at scary like that.

(44:13):
It's really one of those uncomfortable things when in ad
is like I'm clear the room please.
I like people just start shuffling out and get a light
lunch early and we're sitting inthat room in the feeling is
we're never going to find our way out of this.
But that's the best different way.
Yeah, that you have right? Like we actually were in such a

(44:33):
bind and everything on. People are looking at you did,
right? It's detected your that there is
like a spotlight on you and there's a spotlight always on
you. But there's but yeah.
And I make it with like a thing Raptor.
I'm here. It's like it's all like yeah.
You've seriously. Yeah.
Exhaust isn't just so absurd. Yeah.

(44:54):
And you can't you can't just laugh about it and those moments
or maybe sometimes you know, youcan that's another way out.
But this was like we don't have the time.
We don't have the luxury of time.
We have to fucking figure. This out and now and the deeper
you dig like when you're on take20 and you and it's not.
I mean, and and the schedule is kind of fucked because that you

(45:16):
were supposed to do, like, sevenscenes that day.
That was the day. We had scheduled seven scenes.
I remember that because it was. So it was a pretty simple,
wasn't that? And it was more simple than
other scenes. That's actually what broke me
down is that we were reached lunch and we we ask for grace
and so just the realization thatwe needed to that the schedule

(45:38):
That we not only be like like that should have been done like
four hours ago, but we should bedone with two other scenes, and
we're in Grace, but we're not going to get this before.
We have to actually, finally break for lunch and then we're
going to come back to the same. And that just that was what I
couldn't get my head around, butit's always the clock, it's
always, you know, it's not, that's what the pressure is.

(46:00):
It's not like, you know, otherwise it's it would be fun
if it weren't for the pressure of the money and the time.
I'm yeah, but that pressure is also really good.
Ya know like, you know, as there's something I love about
it. I love those moments where just

(46:23):
feels like this could just end very bad or we can fucking
figure something out and we gotta do it quick.
I mean, it's it's so exciting. Yeah.
Yeah. It's odd.
Awful when you're in it. It's a terrible feeling.
But sometimes it seems that seems simple at the one that

(46:47):
actually you, because she, it just for you can't force it.
And there's something else telling you that.
It's like a different feeling like you, you're chasing, you're
chasing a feeling and that makessense but it's just not there,
it's not really working, it feels forced said or just feels

(47:09):
Road, you know, like me because you thought it was a simple
scene. You just didn't really think
about it or you just kind of youknow, but we did.
And we went in that day though but we started out to start out
strong because we kind of made them some Changes to what
happens after the intimate moment in the bed.

(47:31):
Read. Write, and I was originally
going to be one thing over on this side and then we're like
are no way to maybe it should bethe opposite of that.
Right. So we yeah, we didn't just go in
and just job over the weekend. Yeah.
It's don't call where. Yeah, we both we both kind of re
re thought how that would play because we realized it was too

(47:53):
similar to similar to something that had happened.
Right before. Was that right?
Yeah, I've met. And so then there was like some
relief and like okay well actually we're not doing we're
not repeating ourselves, she hadthis again that's good.
And then we got the jury was like that.
I don't know why really one of the strangest that's difficult

(48:16):
scenes for me. Yeah, it was very is it was
really important. I think we'd worked out the one
thing but then your Suddenly faced with right.
It's the biggest pivot in the film.
And I think somehow that was so obvious that we that cookie, I
kind of just assumed it was pretty simple.

(48:37):
And I mean, you know, there was a lot more dialogue of their we
like cut. We kind of chopped it all out
immediately because I mean, he'sjust like what are we talking
about? Like, when I, what is it like
this? What words are gonna exactly
like charged reflect was actually happening here?
It was very is actually like, and the words were, like in

(48:59):
retrospect, like, they're like, like way too coy and like, yeah,
it's just a bit that's what's funny is that we figured that
out early on to like, I don't know what.
Anyway, it was that was a reallytricky day but those days are
really good because they kind ofreactivate this like, well it's
really what it is is a fear of that happening again.
Like, you just don't want to call, you just don't want to

(49:21):
like get, you don't want to end up back in quicksand because it
really Is the worst feeling? What else was there?
Do you want to talk about other people?
Do you want to talk about? Who's the, who's the cop?
Well, where'd you find that actor?
Michael S /. He's a, he's a, he's like, a New
York theater actor. He's great in case bucking
amazing. Yeah, he's good.

(49:42):
He's really good. I mean, I like, yeah, I always
feel like people with like smallparts at a couple lines and like
extras. That's when you know like if a
director is any good. And I'm like, always dread those
moments and I remember the firsttake going, holy shit.
This guy is like way more in it than I am.

(50:05):
It's like oh fuck. It was me really like yeah,
inspired me. And remember we went and
preached to say the same shoe ortill you tell me what to talk
about. No, but that was great.
It's nice. And I'm glad my Glasper has
that. That's because he would be as he
was great. He's fucking mm.
Yeah. He's fantastic.
Yeah, because yeah, now he won. Awful.

(50:26):
Well I remember when he first saw it.
You mentioned Zoe lister-jones and Julianne Cinelli.
I was Zoe lister-jones plays Jung Mo.
Now I think you were especially surprised by them because you
weren't on set with them so I think that's what I think.
That's what it was was there I hadn't seen them and then Julia
plays young Elaine and yeah I mean the boss.

(50:47):
Oh great. I thought they knew did some
trick where you like used Patti lupone's voice that you blended
it with Joey's Voice or Thing. I don't know why if they just I
thought she was incredible. I'm really not.
It's an amazing performance. Everybody in, you know, our man

(51:08):
in. Yeah.
Armand is so great. I mean, I don't know how he
found Armand, but it looks so much like you and Parenthood
while we're on people. Patti.
LuPone is like so much fun. She like knew that script like
to, well, like she knew, it's sowell.
There's never a moment where shebumped on us on anything.
She was just so. So game.

(51:30):
There was a real I can't I can'timagine two actors that are like
more different that like that approach the work more
differently than you and her butI do feel that there was like an
Alchemy, they're just in one philosophy or one like really
just like want to just like one approach to the work versus the
other, but they were both like totally committed in their own

(51:51):
way. And it's like weird.
Anyway, I really love that. And then Parker that might be my
favorite scene in the film isn't.
As you guys on the porch, that'sreally like, really Ghostly.
And yeah, and you're so vulnerable on that saying, like
it's such a Soulful thing that you're doing there and she's

(52:12):
like, just I don't know. They I'm really like I love that
scene. I'm really and I feel like that
definitely got away from me withthe two of you like that's just
such a beautiful. If the area is wings, Credible.
Yeah, she is incredible, incredible odds.
Yeah, I mean, and and all then just so ballsy.

(52:32):
What I mean, once you got into the bedroom, I am so grateful to
her for ya off and doing that. Oh, man, at this point, are we?
Oh God, Stephen McKinley Henderson.
He came in really understanding the part because it's a weird
one, it's really weird. And there's like a pivot at the
end. That is, that makes me laugh a

(52:54):
lot and It was so clear that he understood that he's funny, he's
really funny. And I don't know.
He, he's really special. I really want to work with him
again. He had two things, we can't talk
about and I like things that we just can't that just are
spoilers but got anything at, what else?

(53:15):
Anything else do we, I mean, there's so many things that's
for, it's why it's always difficult.
Do I know for us? There's the bathtub, the bats
have thing only because it felt like that felt V momentous as
far as our Dynamic was concerned.
If that's is that? No, I mean, let's go.
No, I was thrilled because I knew that I'd get there was

(53:38):
nothing, there was nothing special or unique about the
first, the first time shooting it, and it was like, fine and in
every in most movies you'd like,it's fine, but it just felt like
it just been wasn't something. I are talking to his hand.
I don't think. It's special.
Yeah, and we were as per usual pressed for time and and they

(54:01):
felt like all this is such an important moment.
We have two at the scene where you broke down crying.
Basically, it's a scene where you can, you write can see you
say fine. But yeah, you know, any other
film? It's in this film.
It's a whenever a fucking, like,quote, unquote Powerhouse
moment, but it, but it felt it did feel like wrote it felt like
really obvious. And we are also going to I think

(54:21):
we also recognize that we're going to go back there later.
Right. And if we did it here that we
have to do something else there but that may be the more
appropriate in there her. Exactly.
Yeah, and that was her from but there were you know, for me I'll
start there was it you know there is a technical aspect of
it where the camera was and how it moves throughout the scene.

(54:45):
And so like it's a moment that you want to just be as an actor,
just just for you to reveal itself.
However it does when it does butcouldn't quite Couldn't I do
that? And you will live a lie.
Am I remembering that, right? What's that?
The camera starts on me, right? Well, in this, he certainly on

(55:05):
your phone and I seriously bringinto your ear and then we kind
of think the camera kind of rotates around.
So it starts on the phone, you bring it up to your ear.
So then we pan to become like a profile of your face with the
phone up to your ear and and then once we land on that we're
drifting to the right to then bein like a A medium close up on

(55:26):
you. Yeah, but all, but then, it then
goes up. Yes.
You have to send it up the rightJeff.
And it was all and I didn't anticipate that, that was going
to be one shot. Right?
Right. Yeah.
So, we went back to reshoot it nessie's.
You came in my chair. You told me in the early in the
morning, it's like got me spinning and panic.

(55:48):
Yeah, I thought you were really upset with me.
Yeah, sure. Have it now that it's like, off,
we have to use. I have to do, right?
I remember this is Really, I wasI was wondering whether a little
reluctant to to say this but because it sounds so fucking
stupid and just like actor, shit.
But I remember seeing to happen and I was thinking in what I did

(56:12):
before was I did a scene but it wasn't really I wasn't really
Volatile of didn't really put myself out.
There was still nervous, it was still in some way.
I was controlling a little bit of controlling what people
thought about me. I was I didn't want to let
people down and it was like new crew were early at that and I

(56:35):
remember I'm just realizing likeI had to do something that was
fucking stupid and I would just show didn't want to do it.
I just did I just knew and I just started screaming Screaming
like the most intense dental pain, scream than I could

(56:55):
before. We're shooting right through
there because I had to just fully humiliate myself and then
just go like okay well once that's happened you can't look
any more stupid than Chang you do now and it just like let go
of everything right? Just I don't know what I don't
know why Ryback just be a just was overcome with What this need

(57:20):
to do that and I think it probably made you uncomfortable.
Are you wearing the same wherever you want the monitor?
I had a feeling that you got very uncomfortable.
Did you hear it? I think.
I know I remember knowing what you're doing.
It felt to me like, you were kind of trying to scream

(57:43):
yourself out of like a last, thestate you're in and didn't
actually feel like even like a take, it somehow felt like you
were trying to break out of something that matter where my
awareness. Of yeah, big movie and crew.
Yeah, exactly. Like having to do a thing and it
was shocking in a way that was exciting.
I think because it did like jar everybody and I had and I felt

(58:04):
like it was good because the energy in the room did suddenly
become both alert and Disturbed and which was right, which is
right for this is. Yeah.
And that's I think that's what we were trying to get at is like
swing that is in a disturbed State and not moment and it's
not there's not one emotion thatthere.

(58:25):
I bet they're having a as manifesting.
It is something very hard to pinpoint in some ways what the
person is feeling precisely. Right signals horrible moments
where you just don't quite know what to do and and again yeah I
think we kind of went into it. Going like this is what we'll do

(58:47):
so I would do that and then I have such appreciation for you
because out of that you you recognize that there was
something that there was a genuine State now that was like
available and you didn't want tocontrol it, but you also knew
that that it couldn't reveal itself at the top of the scene.

(59:08):
And it had to had to hold and everyone listening, you should
please accident Artisan at the Monitor.
And he said, I just want to be very precise about this and then
he told me like that you thoughtthat I shouldn't let it out that
it shouldn't reveal itself. Look, when you find me.
I should be. Where was it?
The a dress like that? It's the, yeah, I think it was

(59:31):
where you started is where you should end like where you
started and that take right before the expression, right?
Like that's that's the yeah. That's where you're getting to.
Yes that was so good and I didn't at that moment I could I
just it's like as if generate something that I've no idea what
the fuck it is but I don't know what to do.

(59:53):
I don't know what you do with it.
Just because it was there and itwas so helpful.
It's the biggest thing. This Lapointe, very I say, I
have no idea. What's good, what's happening?
What will work in? Just fucking open for the best.
What? I keep the victory for actually,
this movie. It's really, it's amazing.
They're realizing, no, I really it's worth it.

(01:00:15):
Yeah, it I mean I don't Kelowna shit because I always want more
days but it's impossible but it's incredible.
They they just moved being were so supporter for real.
Thanks for listening. The 824 podcast is produced by
us a 24 special. Thanks to our editor Tom Wyatt

(01:00:35):
and robot repair who composed our theme