October 18, 2023 • 39 mins
Topics covered include: Nathan and Patti acting together off-Broadway in the mid-80s, herbal inspiration, learning on the job, sense memory, the brutality of Julliard, putting in the work, the dumbing down of America, witty alcoholics, the Alogonquin Round Table, Nathan falling in love with Dicks: The Musical, becoming A24 repertoire players, feeding ham to puppets, adoring Megan Thee Stallion, Patti’s deep hatred of ABBA, Broadway as a shopping mall, art as an essential human right, getting dual-citizenship ‘just in case,’ and Patti’s bootlegger grandmother.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Hey and welcome back to the A 24Podcast.
Friends and theatre legends Patti Lupone and Nathan Lane met
over 40 years ago while acting off Broadway, and their careers
converged once again this past year when they both starred in
Re Astor's Beau Is Afraid. For today's episode, we got
Patti and Nathan together to talk about the state of showbiz
being players in the A 24 repertoire and Nathan's latest
(00:27):
role in Dix the Musical. We hope you enjoy the
conversation. Catch Nathan and Dicks when it
opens nationwide this weekend. Hi everyone, this is Nathan
Lane. And I'm Patti Lupone.
And we're just going to sit around for an hour and bitch.
All for a 24. A 24.
(00:47):
Our new home Reddish. Get to go Nathan.
We met doing that Albert Inoratoplay.
I can't remember the name of it in 1984 at the Public Theater.
What was it? Something coming of age in Soho?
I don't know. That was the name of.
Coming of age? In Soho, and it was about four.
I do remember that we would go back to my apartment and have
(01:09):
parties. Well, we we.
Did the reading We did go back to your you had a townhouse,
right? Duplex on 20th St.
OK. Well, we went back there, you
and I, and there was a a youngeractor.
Mad. I've seen him, but he was.
He was attractive. And then there was some herbal
(01:29):
inspiration. And then I realized maybe it was
time for me to go. That's what I recall.
The reading seemed to take up most of our adult lives.
It just it was endless. So what went out of there?
It was like we had escaped. Something, and I think everyone
was ready to let loose a bit. Who directed?
It Who directed the reading? That's a good question.
(01:51):
It wasn't, was it? Peter.
Mark Shifter. Remember him?
Did he do it because he worked with Albert often?
He directed Gemini, didn't he? But I don't think it could have
been because he was in my first class with me at Juilliard,
Peter, Shifter and Peter. He was not a good actor at all.
(02:12):
And I don't think he lasted beyond the first year.
But he was also bizarre. He was so strange.
And when bizarre non actors havenothing to do, they become
directors. I think you're right.
I but we had a lot of crazy people.
John Hausman looks for the 36 ofthe craziest people.
(02:33):
He was like Peter was one of them.
What was John Hausman like? He was, exactly.
Like what you saw on television and sell?
In the. Paper Chase, he was frightening
to me, actually. This is a famous story.
I think I've told that a milliontimes.
We go down, we're in the native building now, and I I get into
the elevator and it's an elevator still to its people.
(02:53):
And Mr. Houseman, I never calledhim John because he was on
Timber Diddy. I said hello, Mr. Houseman.
And he turned around and said Luis Bernakau says you're the
most illiterate person she's ever met.
It was so humiliating. I couldn't answer.
I mean, I I I think I said probably, yeah.
I was so shocked. And humiliated in a room full of
in an elevator full of musicians.
(03:14):
So I we were, I was the only actor in that.
And Mr. Houseman? Aside from being unpleasant, are
those people? Do you think they're trying to
test you in some way? That way of seeing what you're
made of by saying something rudeand.
They totally tested us. They they.
Yeah, they. It was it was a brutal
experience. What about you?
Did you go to an acting school? No, I didn't go to an acting
(03:37):
school. Did.
You go to a comedy. School.
Did you go to a? College, school.
When I was a kid, I mean, very young.
I went to the Stella Adler studios, all right?
And I took like a crash course. I took acting, movement and
speech. I studied not with Stella Adler,
(03:57):
but with her, her cousin Pearl that was like Pearl Pearlstein
or something like that. And he was not quite as
theatrical. As Stella, but just pretentious
enough. And so we we were doing this
acting class. This is a story I've told many
times and it was all rather abstract to me.
(04:19):
I had already been working as anactor, so and when I decided I
should buy, maybe I better go study this a little and.
And so we were having this classand she wanted it was, I don't
know, sense memory or something.She said.
Everybody go to the windows and look out and take it all in.
And then you, you come back and tell me what you see in.
A young lady said, oh, I saw in the clouds I could see my, my
(04:41):
grandmother's face, who I lost when I was very young.
And a guy said, oh, I saw a man,an old man, walking his dog.
And it was heartbreaking, and itreminded me of something in my
own life and and how I should reach out to my.
Grandparents. And then she said, Mr. Lane,
what did you see? And I said I see $400.00 going
(05:02):
down the drain. And did you get thrown out of
the class or did she say Now that's the answer I'm looking
for. I think I got a laugh, but I
wasn't quite ready for that. Do you know the only only acting
classes I went to with it was was Julia, But just recently
Nathan I It's been on my bookshelf forever.
I picked it up. It's The Fervent Years by Harold
Klorman and Stewart and Harold were married.
(05:24):
Great. Now I wish.
That I had experienced Stella Adler because of the group
theater. There's a great, like American
Masters documentary about her. She's, you know, those there.
You can see her on YouTube now, like as you can see everything.
You know they he, yes, they weremarried.
She and Harold Corman, there's some story about one night they
(05:45):
were in bed and Harold kept tossing and turning and she woke
him up. But she said Harold, stop
sleeping like a great man. Anyway, so yes, I wish I had
studied with her. I did.
Eventually I took some classes with an act, an acting teacher
named Joan Bellamo, which were very helpful to me.
(06:05):
And then the rest is just from experience, just learning on the
job experience and watching other actors that I admired.
Nathan, did you ever Was Joan Bellamo independent of Stella
Adler? Was she independent actor studio
independent of? The Stanislavsky Technique.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes, it was I.
(06:25):
The reason I ask is because knowing nothing about the
Stanislavsky technique, I denigrated it going I'm not a
method actor. I turns out I'm a method actor.
Turns out what I know about method now is I am completely a
method actor. Just sense memory.
You know what I mean? Sometimes at at school we
weren't taught method. We had our acting training the
(06:49):
first year. They had no clue and they hired
actors who would teach us what they knew until they got a job
and left and then the next person would come in and go,
Well the what he said was nonsense.
This is the thing we learn how to act by default.
And we learned because we didn'thave a a solid acting technique
than every technique. Any technique works.
(07:11):
Yeah, you gather a bit from eachone.
You know, I read all their books, UDA Hagen, Respect for
Acting and Sandy Meisner and Robert Lewis.
And do you, do you have you readthe book by Isaac Butler, The
Method? You know that book?
No. How the 20th century learned to
oh, it's fabulous. It's incredible.
(07:31):
It would make a great miniseriesbecause it starts in the Moscow
art Theater and Stanislavski andthe and the guy who right now I
can't remember all the names butthe guy who was running the
place and and bringing in Stanislavski and and how that
all started and and him wanting to do after the seagull had
(07:52):
failed. And then wanting to revive it
there and and all of the work heput into it.
And Chekhov was very nervous because he was putting in all
these sounds of birds tweeting and getting in the way and and
then it was hailed as a masterpiece and.
What's the name of the? Book.
It's called the method. How the 20th Century Learned to
Act by Isaac Butler. He Co wrote the oral history of
(08:16):
Angels in America and. He's.
Wonderful writer. This book was just staggering.
And then it It's all about a lotof those people.
Maria Ospinskaya. Richard Boloslavsky, When they
all came over and they started teaching in America, you know
how we call sections of a scene the beats, the beats of the
(08:39):
seats. It came about because they were
all Russian and they used to call them bits.
The bits, but they talked like the beats.
So that's why people call them beats.
So then then it's about that whole history and then the group
theater and how they all startedto spread out and start their,
you know, everybody had their version of it.
(09:00):
And Stella, you know, went over and met with Stanislavsky.
And then in the book, in this particular book, they have
sections from Stanislavsky's diary where he talks about how
annoying Stella Adler is she. She has too many questions.
Speaking Speaking of the group theater, if I'm interpreting
(09:22):
this book correctly, they formedthe Group Theater where Harold
Clurman wanted to create a different theater as a reaction
to what was on Broadway, which was gayety.
And don't you find we're sort ofin the same situation now with
what is on Broadway is I look, Isee what's on Broadway and I
think it's a circus, it's a Disneyland and it's Las Vegas.
(09:43):
And I wonder if we have enough gumption or their creators out
there that are reacting to this theater on Broadway now to
create a new theater. I've said I don't want to be on
Broadway anymore. I want to be in a storefront.
I want to create theater. I don't want to be in this
particular theater. Right, it's.
Changed. Yeah, it's changed.
(10:04):
And I'm just wondering whether we'll they'll be support for it,
financial support for it and they'll be creators that will
shift it once again. I don't know whether we're
raising. A generation that would be
interested in that. Exactly.
Right. It was a time when, when I went
into this, I didn't go to a school, but I wanted to read
everything there was about the history of the theater, the
(10:27):
people who started. It's going back to the Greeks,
the Elizabethans, it all the waythrough.
I wanted to know everything. I wanted to read about the
different directors and writers.When I was a kid, I was always
fascinated by the Algonquin Roundtable, all these witty
Alcoholics. That's what I wanted.
I wanted to go to the Algonquinsand hang out with Dorothy Parker
and Robert Benchley. My whole fantasy world of of New
(10:50):
York City and what it was like and these people who are all
writers and directors and and actors and the Lunts, of course,
you know, just the history of the Lunts.
You know these. Now you mentioned these names to
kids. They don't know who they are.
They don't know you. Know Zoe Caldwell died and they
didn't. People don't remember, that's
why. So say for example Jack O'Brien
(11:12):
his. Now 2 books, but the first book
Jack B Nimble which was about the regional theater movement of
which he was a part under the tutelage of Ellis Rabb but jacks
description. Of a young Rosemary Harris
walking on stage in some restoration play.
How she made her way down the stairs and the and picking up a
(11:33):
some object in a whatever piece of business she had to do with
it or a fan or something. And he was it was so vivid.
It was like seeing a video of it.
I mean that's how we exist. We exist in people's memories.
We see it and it's there and then it's gone.
The notion of wanting to know that whereas you know people
now, it's about I'm a social. Social media influencer, I'm on
(11:56):
TikTok. You know people are being
discovered that way. Getting in celebrity, so-called
celebrity. You know those those people
haven't put in the work. Yeah, that's.
Recording videos. That's what's so annoying about
today's young actors. They do not want to put in the
work, and part of the experienceof acting is the work is putting
(12:18):
in the work to figure out how you do this.
To strengthen the muscle. And it's shocking to me that,
well, I saw it years ago. You know, I went back to school
to talk to the graduating class,our class.
Well, we were, excuse me, we were trained for the stage.
We were not trained to go to Hollywood and the subsequent
classes. And of course it's 51 years ago.
It was I my first class was in 1968.
(12:39):
Sixty 8 to 72. We were trained for the stage.
I never thought about going to Hollywood.
I thought about dedicating my life, which I did to the stage.
And now it's all about fame or it's not putting in the work.
I think, to your point, the audience will find you.
I've been saying forever, whoever dumbed down whoever's
idea it was to dumb down. America has done a brilliant
(13:00):
job. I mean, you see it in the
theater, you see it in our politics.
We're stupid as shit. It's it's crazy.
But I also think there are people, and there's a lot of
people out there that want to beeducated.
They want to be moved. They wanted a transcendent
experience in the theater, and it's about finding the place to
create that and have the audience find you.
I mean that's that's kind of my,my desire now.
(13:23):
I don't want to. I mean the Times Square to get
to the theater. Right.
The difficulty also is there's no no one has any attention span
anymore. No, everyone is on their phones.
You know when you're when you'redoing a movie or TV show and
they yell cut and you see? 25 people pick up a phone and
stare at it. So we're losing the human
(13:43):
connection. And that's really what the
theater is about. A community experience.
And you know, and yeah, the whole the expense of it all now
a ton of money. And to see somebody recreate a
movie from the 80s and it's, youknow, it's just like, well, I
don't want you just stay home and watch the movie and it.
(14:04):
Yeah. Which is, you know, it once was
affordable and it was. With the work of Tennessee
Williams and Arthur Miller, it was it was for everyone.
It was somewhere where everyone could go and it was about the
human condition what we're all going through.
And now now more often you that that's what you're finding on
television that's sort of where the best writing is turn is
(14:27):
turning up. I mean there's, you know, small
independent films of which we bring it apart at age 24.
And very proudly. And very proud.
And I hope that we become repertory players.
In the 824 repertoire. Absolutely.
Just putting it out there to 824executives.
Exactly. You know, it's so it's it is so
(14:47):
it's very difficult. Not unlike Broadway, which has
been turned into a shopping mall, You know, now it's all in
film. It's all about superheroes.
Yeah, Can I stop for a second? Because I want to ask you, since
we're on to 824, what it was like filming a musical and I if
you can talk about it. Sure, that I can talk about how
you felt. Yes.
(15:08):
Dix the musical how you sang, how you, how they filmed it, how
I'm really curious about. That I yes, I came out of
retirement. You do a a movie musical with
Larry Charles The wonderful Larry Charles directed this.
It was a a script originally titled Fucking Identical Twins.
That was the name of the when itwas a sketch at Upright Citizens
(15:30):
Brigade when these two young guys, Josh Sharp and Aaron
Jackson. Jackson did it in the basement
of A Gristedes and it was a hugesuccess for them.
And then they did it in LA and then it was picked up first by
20th Century Fox. I don't know what they were
thinking. And then eventually Peter
Chernin entertainment in age 24,picked it up.
(15:51):
You know, it's a satirical, absurdist R rated queer musical
about toxic masculinity and. And The Parent Trap?
It's the plot of The Parent Trap.
Josh and Aaron played two corporate businessmen 2 macho
guys who talk a lot about their Dicks and being successful with
women. And they work in a company
(16:12):
together and there's men, and they realize that they are
identical twins, even though they don't look alike at all.
They're both kind of lonely. And they decide to reunite their
parents and try to create a family again.
And so I play their father, who is now his come out of the
closet. He's gay.
(16:33):
And he, he lives in an apartmentwith these two creatures he
found in the sewer, which he calls the sewer boys.
They're sort of like rescue dogs.
To him. And he feeds them by by.
He feeds them deli meat. He chews it up, spits it into
their mouths, and they live in acage in my living room.
And the mother, played by the Greek, Megan Mullally, is in a
(16:55):
wheelchair and she's a shut in and she's quite eccentric.
And years ago, on a trip to Greece, you'll pardon the
expression, she says Her pussy fell off, but her son it crawled
away. And her son hit it with a flip
flop and she so they kept it andshe keeps it in a in a bag and a
baggie in her purse. So she still feels like a woman
(17:20):
anyway. So that's that's sort of where
we are. And when I read this, I I
laughed but I thought oh this isI don't know if I can do this
stuff. And then I had a zoom with Larry
Charles, who has, you know, directed Borat and you know, I
just loved him and I thought he'll he'll know.
How to do this? And then of course, I had a
(17:41):
dinner with these two guys, Joshand Aaron, and that went on for
four hours and I fell in love with them and and so I said,
well, why not? What I admired was their
hutzpah, the audacity of it all,because it's incredibly
outrageous and it's a, you know,and it's a musical.
It's there are musical numbers they wrote with this composer,
(18:02):
Carl Saint Lucie. Numbers are terrific.
They're they're tuneful and filthy and you know, we're in
this climate right now where it's books are being banned.
Don't say gay, don't do this. You better be careful what you
do in your comedy. And they come from this
generation of young queer comedians like Julio Torres and
(18:25):
Bowen Yang, who's plays God in the film Billy Eichner.
They don't have that. They're not concerned with what
you think. Oh, yay.
You know and and when I've seen it now I've seen like a few
screenings and you know people just laugh their heads off and
and there's something very freeing about it.
The cause of that if whether you're, you know, obviously the
(18:47):
target audience is is the gay audience, but you know, it's
just it's deeply silly. And outrageous and and I think
really works because it's a musical.
So this was a movie, you know, we made it in Burbank and there
were, I think they were studios or could have been a a trucking
company that just garages, you know, it was a very low budget,
(19:10):
$12 million film. So everything is sort of
handmade quality to it all. And we made it in sequence then.
So it was for me going back to you know, singing and it was
nerve wracking. I mean it was all pre recorded
but you know you're singing, youknow live in the in the in the
moment when they're filming but and you don't, you didn't really
(19:32):
have time to think about it too much because you would like they
would spend one day and you would shoot an entire number.
Ordinarily in a regular movie musical would have take would
have taken a week. So I.
But that was part of the kind ofstyle of this piece it was to
make it feel like you were back in the basement of Gristedes
(19:54):
seeing these people put on a show.
So it was turned out to. I mean we laughed ourselves
silly. We just we had a great time.
And then it's also there's a Megan the Stallion.
I don't know if you're familiar with her, the rapper.
She plays their boss. She's phenomenal.
She came and she gave. She had two days.
She did this whole. It's incredible.
(20:16):
She's she's fabulous. So it turned out to be a lot of
fun. Did you Did Larry understand how
to shoot a a musical? On camera, I don't know what
the, the context of the songs are but well no Stanley Don and
he's not. But you know he had a great DP
and she was you know it was verystraightforward nothing fancy no
(20:38):
Busby Berkeley overhead sham maybe one.
I think there was maybe one overhead shot but it no, it was
all very straightforward. And because there wasn't any
time I would make a suggestion and say well what if this
happened or the you know, or that happened and he would say
that's a great idea but we don'thave the money.
Don't have the money or the time.
(21:00):
And that became a part of I think the tone and the style of
it all. But from what I've seen with
audiences, it's working. Where's it going to be released?
Is it going to be released in theaters?
Yes, on in theaters. It opens today in select.
Congratulations, Select cities and then it it opens wide on the
(21:22):
20th. Congratulations, Nathan.
Thank you. I mean it did, you know, it's
very a big hit at the Toronto Film Festival and you know,
these screenings have gone well.How it enters, you know, the
real world where people are sitting at home just waiting to
be offended. So you know, that could spell
trouble. I I have no idea where what what
(21:43):
will happen now, but it's a great deal of fun if you're open
minded. Well, don't you think, Speaking
of that, don't you think at somepoint, and I hope it's today,
the pendulum swings back with a vengeance.
Well, yes, the pendulum, yes it usually does.
(22:03):
But this this pendulum is very slow like.
Some on the other side, Yeah, exactly, But.
It brings me back to what I saidearlier.
Whoever decided the corporations, the government,
whoever decided to dumb down thepopulation of America has done a
fucking brilliant job at it. I have PTSD for the last, you
(22:23):
know, I was at 8 years. I you know I have a finite
amount of time left. I have no, I have no idea how
long I have left. But I'm on the other side of it.
And I want to go someplace whereI wake up in the morning and,
oh, I see a blue sky. Oh, I see a red rose.
Oh, I see green ferns, you know,with nothing interfering with
that. And then I thought, OK, so I
find my serenity. Am I going to have PTSD?
(22:44):
Because I don't have PTSD anymore.
Yeah. I mean, we grew up in this
country with this stress, yeah. Right.
I have to tell you this, so I myfriend is Jake Hagey who just
had his. Met Premiere.
I just saw it. You saw that man walking, Yo, it
what a gorgeous. Production Were you there on
opening night? Not opening night, but you know,
(23:05):
there was a thing that was sort of a reception afterwards Tom
Curtihy, Terence's husband, put together.
I mean, you know, is I just lovethe production.
It was so moving. And Joyce Di Donato and and the
the, the, the actors. Susan Graham and Ryan McKinney.
Well, one, I mean, but so yeah, it was very movie sister Helen
Prejean was there. As well.
(23:26):
So I just, I just read that Joyce D Donato and Ryan McKinney
either have done this or I thinkthey have done it.
They went to sing, sing with this, and they incorporated, and
the prison played the chorus Yes.
Amazing. Oh my God.
And one of the prisoners said I I could cry.
I feel alive. When I'm singing, I feel alive.
(23:48):
I I thought, Oh my God, I just have to be reassured that there
is. Humanity left in this world and
in this country. I have to be I'm so messed up,
so emotionally, mentally messed up about what's going on.
I can't get a grasp on anything.Then you read something like
that. And I have an explosion of
emotion because it's an anomaly in our country right now and
(24:11):
it's but to to read that, to read.
And then I start to think why can't we do what the Norwegians
do and have in their prison systems have to be a little bit
a rehabilitating A rehabilitation prison.
I just witnessed this that you know the opera going there and
and having the the the life, they're lifers.
Those guys aren't getting out. Yeah, they're lifers.
(24:31):
And so to give them one shred ofhope, feeling human again is is
incredible. Yeah.
No incredibly moving story, especially that particular
story. The.
Yeah. And it was incredibly moving as
well, because it was it was Terence Mcnally's debut.
At the man and. Oh my God, that's.
Of course, yeah. Would have meant the world to
(24:54):
him at being such an opera lover.
You know that was that really got me.
He no no would have been more tickled than Terrance to to be
seeing that happening on the Medstage.
He has one other one more thing about that is I, you know, it
was the gala. So I'm sitting at a table and I
I just said to Neil Patrick Harris, I went, you cannot
(25:14):
convince me that that wasn't a real needle in the execution.
I said you cannot convince. He said no, no, no, that was
that's it. You know, we've all had them.
Fake needle. So they can't convince me
because they had a close up, youknow the Yvonne Nivo Van Hove,
they had a close up. So when Jay came over, when I
said so we got two questions, was the silence in the
(25:35):
execution. Is that orchestrating, is that
you? Is that, is that composed?
He said yes. And I said is it a real needle?
He said yes. That's a real needle going into.
Ryan McKinney Yes. It's not a like a retractable.
And it must be a nurse. It must be a real nurse that's
administering that whole execution part.
Yeah. I mean, I also, I I asked, I
(25:57):
said to Joyce Di Donato, who's magnificent, you know, and I
said, how often do you have to do this?
And she said 07 more times. And I was like, wow, I wish I
had that schedule and. Plus.
They they only perform like onceevery two days.
What does? It three days, I said.
If you were doing 8 shows a week, you'd sound like Elaine's
Trench. Speaking of a late stretch, I'm
(26:19):
turning into a late stretch. I want to go see, here we are.
And I can't go to the opening, So I called the Rick Miramontes.
I said I need some pomp. I'm turning into a way, you
know, that story about Elaine would go up to the box office
and go, where's my tickets? He told me this.
Did I tell you this? No.
She said, I don't. I said, oh, you went to see.
(26:39):
I said, that's that's a tough ticket or something.
And she said, you know, I don't pay for anything.
She said I you don't think I'm going to pay for tickets now
after all the years I've been inshow business?
I said, well, how do you work? She said.
I go up to the box office around7:50.
I say, hi, it's Elaine Stritch. Just give me a single in the
back. And I said, and they always hand
(27:00):
over a ticket. She said absolutely, except for
one show. And I said, which one?
And she said. Mama fucking Mia.
I didn't know I hate ABBA, I protest.
ABBA, how did you hate because they became famous?
In the rock'n'roll area era. And I am a devotee of the band.
(27:23):
So ABBA comes, It's the band, it's The Beatles, it's The
Rolling Stones, it's Three Dog Night.
It's all it's rock'n'roll era and it's ABBA.
And what? What?
Are you kidding me? You've got to be kidding me.
Dancing clean. Give me a break.
So I have protested all of it. Really.
I I've never seen Mamma Mia. I've never seen any of the
movies. Every time there's music on, the
(27:44):
music's on, I turn it off. Just because I'm I'm like a
swifty, only for the band. Now apparently there's there are
concerts where there are holograms of ABBA.
I I have to tell you, I saw the original hologram and it was Roy
Orbison and Maria Callas when they first started this thing.
No. And the the Roy Orbison I went.
(28:05):
First of all, they found a womanin Queen.
Let's talk about that Maria Tallis.
They found a woman in Queens wholooked like her.
They rehearsed her for Maria's movements and then they must
have they filmed for the Holocaust, Holocaust.
For the hologram and but the RoyOrbison was real footage of him
and then they just lip sync the woman lip sync.
(28:26):
Yeah, but then for the Roy Orbison, this was crazy.
He came up. Through the trap and the floor.
And he went down through the trap and the floor and Greg,
where's he going to hell comes up and it was a hologram.
Yeah, and went down. But it was the most insane
staging because he was like going into a hole round that
back to. He's dead, right?
So what, are you going to hell? Shouldn't he have, like flown
(28:48):
someplace? Shouldn't he have gone off stage
left? It was so nice where after we're
gone, there'll be holograms of you and me doing anything goes
or something. Or this?
Or this? Do a hologram exactly I have to.
Tell you about my son's podcast.So during lockdown, you know, we
were all together in Connecticutand he was so frustrated because
(29:09):
he's a white boy in his 30s and nachma in our business right
now. And I said, Josh, you have to
create your own work trying to help him out, trying to.
And what he did to create his own work was he took American
short stories, dramatized them, and then asked American actors.
To read them as if they were plays and it's called radio play
revival and and it's as if it's an old radio play you know what
(29:34):
before TV before you can go to you can pick it up from any
podcast and it's all you know it's American literature that's
in the public domain or that we've gotten permission from
playwrights that are living and we got these actors that we
started in Pandemic. And we're ending it in a strike.
So everybody was available and everybody said yes and it's it's
(29:55):
it was quite a journey for him. It's like the old Lux Radio
Theatre, Clifton Webb in PresentLaughter.
Yes. And you know what?
We should do more of that just to reintroduce Americans to our
art. So I I keep saying, I'm so
saddened by the fact that when was the last time you heard the
(30:15):
word art and culture? In daily.
Discourse in our country, in ourpoliticians.
And I mean, I I don't perhaps you were involved, but when
Colleen Dewhurst was alive and they were doing the First
National Endowment for the Arts cut, she asked a bunch of us to
go down to Washington, DC And I think for the subcommittee, you
(30:37):
know, should we cut the NationalEndowment for the Arts?
And I kept hearing from these politicians.
Low priority. Low priority.
Low priority. When, for me, art is the soul of
a nation and when have we ever been celebrated?
When have we ever been acknowledged, let alone
celebrated? I just looked at the
Macarthograph Who either knows about the MacArthur Grant.
(30:58):
I looked at the recipients of the MacArthur grant going.
It's so out of the realm of discourse in this country, and
it shouldn't be. It is always the first thing to
go or the arts. And it's, it's a human right.
Yes, it's a human right. You know, it's proven.
Now the arts are important to our to the young folks, people
(31:20):
growing up creating healthy, well-rounded human beings.
Music and art and and and dance and opera and plays and
musicals. It's all incredibly important.
Next month they're doing a concert version of The Frogs,
which I had done a revision of the libretto and we did at
(31:42):
Lincoln Center back in 2004. And so I've been, you know,
condensing it for the concert. And we had done a recording of
this concert version of the frogs we had done for Steve's
70th birthday at the Library of Congress.
And it was. I just found it so moving as,
especially after 911, the notionof this, the God Dionysus
(32:04):
feeling like the arts can affectchange in society, that he has
to go to Hades to bring back a great writer to speak to our
nation and inspire it again. It's a very romantic, idealized
notion, but it's incredibly important, incredibly.
That's why I love Ireland. Their heroes are poets and
(32:26):
novelists and they sing and who are?
I'm looking into getting my Irish citizenship now.
Both my grandparents were from Ireland and because you know,
just in case. Me too.
I have. I have my Italian citizenship.
I did it because of the first Iraq war.
My kid was draft age and I went,he's not fighting in this war.
(32:47):
There's no war he is going to fight in.
And so I hired A genealogist to find out if if one of my
grandparents had done the right thing.
And we went to my grandpa Patty first because he was murdered in
Jamestown. We figured, oh, he didn't have
time to naturalize. They can't find him in Sicily.
They just can't find him in Sicily because my grand
murdered. Yeah, ow, well, as I understand
it, and it's written up in the Dunkirk paper, there was a knock
(33:09):
on the door at 5:00 in the morning, which my grandmother
answered. And there were a couple guys out
there and said we want to speak to whatever his name was.
I don't even know what my grandfather's name was.
Shot him in the back of the head.
And my grandmother and my motherand my Uncle George and so
fucking cliche a Calabrese were taken to the Jamestown police
station for interrogation. People think members of my
(33:31):
family think that my my grandmother was involved.
My grandmother was a bootlegger.Oh, oh the The plot thickens.
So Grandma was a bootlegger. We and and her house in
Jamestown. We all vied for this sewing room
off of the kitchen because it was like being back in a womb.
It was so dark and it was a window seat and a, you know, a
(33:52):
sewing machine, whatever. Well, apparently the floorboards
lifted up and that's where she had the whiskey.
Wow. So we No.
But it was never solved. They found the gun.
He was murdered. He's buried in Jamestown.
So we went to my grandpa, Luke Pelham.
We did the right thing. And he did not naturalize.
Apparently If he didn't naturalize so he was still
considered an Italian citizen. So it was easy for me to get my
(34:13):
passport and then my blood got it, Joshua.
So I have an EU passport, which I am so grateful for, just in
case. Yeah, I know.
I was just going to say politics.
What are you doing now? What?
I was just going to say that there is there is an advantage
to being in. Our profession, I think, and
having the desire to broaden ourour visions.
(34:36):
If I didn't act, I would be a hobo or just be a traveler.
A hobo? Yeah, why not?
I would be a hobo just I would rather see the world than do
anything else. I enjoy going into other
countries and assimilating into their culture to understand it.
And I think that has a lot to dowith the fact that as an actor,
(34:56):
it is our job. To open our eyes and see and
accept so, so many Americans don't want to.
They don't want to leave the country.
They don't want to. They're not interested in what's
going on in the rest of the world.
It's terrible. It is terrible because you you
see how fortunate this country is, how fortunate the citizens
(35:18):
of this country is are rather, and if they only traveled, they
would have more gratitude to what we do have, what seems to
be a right washing machines and dryers.
Dishwashers, 2 cars in the driveway.
A house? If you have that, yeah.
But a lot of people can't affordthat.
You know, well, not anymore. But it's just so.
I mean, I'm grateful that I was born into this.
(35:39):
I mean, I do believe that I was chosen for this because it was.
I was. I started a four years old and
fell in love with the audience and never looked back.
So I always said it chose me. I've always said it chose me,
you know, Right now, with the strike on, it's.
I finished something in Atlanta that I'm very proud of and just
waiting to see what happens. I'm singing, I do the concert
work and there's there's interest in plays, but I kind of
(36:01):
want to stay off the stage for awhile because I don't want to do
any shows a week anymore. I gave it 50 years.
It's enough. I understand.
Yeah, I think I have a few more left in me.
But yeah, it's it gets harder and harder.
There's no life. It's, I mean, I'm built for it.
You're built for it. We we have the muscle to do it.
It's not that that's not the problem.
(36:22):
The problem is the one day off, we have no life.
The life is on the stage. And like I said, I haven't got
that much life left. So I want to be able to have,
I'd rather do film where you still get two days off and maybe
a whole week off. Yeah, I know.
Oh, yeah. And then, you know, you do these
things, you know, like this play.
(36:42):
I did pictures from home last season and, you know, it's
Bartlett, Cher, it's Danny Burstein, Zoe Wanamaker.
You know, I thought it was a a beautiful play, very funny, very
moving story about this son and his parents and this
photographer Larry Sultan photographed him over a period
(37:02):
of a decade and then and wrote this, what became his master
work and he interviewed them andit was, it was a way of also I
think him trying to figure out his father and the effect that's
had on him and and how it's affecting his family.
And it just seemed very, I hate to use the word relatable, but
you know it's about parents and mortality.
(37:24):
It seemed like something we all have to go through or are going
through and then it was totally dismissed by the the critics.
You know, when you go you, you work, you know, two years or
something, you do a few readingsand you, you know and you work
on this thing and you and then it's over, You know, it really
hurt business. It was so across the boards
(37:47):
dismissive and yet the audience,you know, it was a crowd
pleaser. The audience seemed to love it.
You could hear people sniffling and and I I would say to Danny
Urstein, well we can't they theycan't just be pretending to be
nice for our sake. They obviously like this play
and it seems to be a very effective piece and so I I was
(38:11):
it was very puzzling and disappointing when it was just
kind of I mean really kind of beaten up and I I you know and
what can you do that's that was that's what they all decided and
and so it shortened its life andand so after that.
It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking.
Well, I don't know if I want to go through that again.
Exactly. You put all that work in and and
(38:32):
David Mehmet said he didn't carewhat the critics said as long as
he knew the critics lumped the theater.
And I don't know whether that's the case, but let's figure
something positive. I look forward to seeing you
this summer at your Hampstead estate.
Your ancestral estate in the Hamptons anytime.
Yes, it's always fun out there with Scotty and the gang.
Yeah, absolutely. PS We're here so we should have
(38:54):
dinner. We can walk to each other.
Oh yeah, that's right. That would be lovely.
I would love that. Yeah, I'm around now, so.
Me too. Yeah, we should have that.
We should talk other than on a podcast and have a dinner.
Exactly, yes. And well, thank you, a 24, for
putting Nathan and me together. Yes, thank you.
It was great. It was really great.
(39:14):
Nathan, don't you think we covered a lot of topics?
We sure did. Love you, doll.
Nice to talk. Love you too.
Bye. Thank you very much.
All right. Take care.
Thanks for listening. A 24 podcast is produced by us.
A 24 Special thanks to our editor Tom Wyatt and Robot
Repair who composed our theme.
Hey and welcome back to the A 24Podcast.
Friends and theatre legends Patti Lupone and Nathan Lane met
over 40 years ago while acting off Broadway, and their careers
converged once again this past year when they both starred in
Re Astor's Beau Is Afraid. For today's episode, we got
Patti and Nathan together to talk about the state of showbiz
being players in the A 24 repertoire and Nathan's latest
(00:27):
role in Dix the Musical. We hope you enjoy the
conversation. Catch Nathan and Dicks when it
opens nationwide this weekend. Hi everyone, this is Nathan
Lane. And I'm Patti Lupone.
And we're just going to sit around for an hour and bitch.
All for a 24. A 24.
(00:47):
Our new home Reddish. Get to go Nathan.
We met doing that Albert Inoratoplay.
I can't remember the name of it in 1984 at the Public Theater.
What was it? Something coming of age in Soho?
I don't know. That was the name of.
Coming of age? In Soho, and it was about four.
I do remember that we would go back to my apartment and have
(01:09):
parties. Well, we we.
Did the reading We did go back to your you had a townhouse,
right? Duplex on 20th St.
OK. Well, we went back there, you
and I, and there was a a youngeractor.
Mad. I've seen him, but he was.
He was attractive. And then there was some herbal
(01:29):
inspiration. And then I realized maybe it was
time for me to go. That's what I recall.
The reading seemed to take up most of our adult lives.
It just it was endless. So what went out of there?
It was like we had escaped. Something, and I think everyone
was ready to let loose a bit. Who directed?
It Who directed the reading? That's a good question.
(01:51):
It wasn't, was it? Peter.
Mark Shifter. Remember him?
Did he do it because he worked with Albert often?
He directed Gemini, didn't he? But I don't think it could have
been because he was in my first class with me at Juilliard,
Peter, Shifter and Peter. He was not a good actor at all.
(02:12):
And I don't think he lasted beyond the first year.
But he was also bizarre. He was so strange.
And when bizarre non actors havenothing to do, they become
directors. I think you're right.
I but we had a lot of crazy people.
John Hausman looks for the 36 ofthe craziest people.
(02:33):
He was like Peter was one of them.
What was John Hausman like? He was, exactly.
Like what you saw on television and sell?
In the. Paper Chase, he was frightening
to me, actually. This is a famous story.
I think I've told that a milliontimes.
We go down, we're in the native building now, and I I get into
the elevator and it's an elevator still to its people.
(02:53):
And Mr. Houseman, I never calledhim John because he was on
Timber Diddy. I said hello, Mr. Houseman.
And he turned around and said Luis Bernakau says you're the
most illiterate person she's ever met.
It was so humiliating. I couldn't answer.
I mean, I I I think I said probably, yeah.
I was so shocked. And humiliated in a room full of
in an elevator full of musicians.
(03:14):
So I we were, I was the only actor in that.
And Mr. Houseman? Aside from being unpleasant, are
those people? Do you think they're trying to
test you in some way? That way of seeing what you're
made of by saying something rudeand.
They totally tested us. They they.
Yeah, they. It was it was a brutal
experience. What about you?
Did you go to an acting school? No, I didn't go to an acting
(03:37):
school. Did.
You go to a comedy. School.
Did you go to a? College, school.
When I was a kid, I mean, very young.
I went to the Stella Adler studios, all right?
And I took like a crash course. I took acting, movement and
speech. I studied not with Stella Adler,
(03:57):
but with her, her cousin Pearl that was like Pearl Pearlstein
or something like that. And he was not quite as
theatrical. As Stella, but just pretentious
enough. And so we we were doing this
acting class. This is a story I've told many
times and it was all rather abstract to me.
(04:19):
I had already been working as anactor, so and when I decided I
should buy, maybe I better go study this a little and.
And so we were having this classand she wanted it was, I don't
know, sense memory or something.She said.
Everybody go to the windows and look out and take it all in.
And then you, you come back and tell me what you see in.
A young lady said, oh, I saw in the clouds I could see my, my
(04:41):
grandmother's face, who I lost when I was very young.
And a guy said, oh, I saw a man,an old man, walking his dog.
And it was heartbreaking, and itreminded me of something in my
own life and and how I should reach out to my.
Grandparents. And then she said, Mr. Lane,
what did you see? And I said I see $400.00 going
(05:02):
down the drain. And did you get thrown out of
the class or did she say Now that's the answer I'm looking
for. I think I got a laugh, but I
wasn't quite ready for that. Do you know the only only acting
classes I went to with it was was Julia, But just recently
Nathan I It's been on my bookshelf forever.
I picked it up. It's The Fervent Years by Harold
Klorman and Stewart and Harold were married.
(05:24):
Great. Now I wish.
That I had experienced Stella Adler because of the group
theater. There's a great, like American
Masters documentary about her. She's, you know, those there.
You can see her on YouTube now, like as you can see everything.
You know they he, yes, they weremarried.
She and Harold Corman, there's some story about one night they
(05:45):
were in bed and Harold kept tossing and turning and she woke
him up. But she said Harold, stop
sleeping like a great man. Anyway, so yes, I wish I had
studied with her. I did.
Eventually I took some classes with an act, an acting teacher
named Joan Bellamo, which were very helpful to me.
(06:05):
And then the rest is just from experience, just learning on the
job experience and watching other actors that I admired.
Nathan, did you ever Was Joan Bellamo independent of Stella
Adler? Was she independent actor studio
independent of? The Stanislavsky Technique.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes, it was I.
(06:25):
The reason I ask is because knowing nothing about the
Stanislavsky technique, I denigrated it going I'm not a
method actor. I turns out I'm a method actor.
Turns out what I know about method now is I am completely a
method actor. Just sense memory.
You know what I mean? Sometimes at at school we
weren't taught method. We had our acting training the
(06:49):
first year. They had no clue and they hired
actors who would teach us what they knew until they got a job
and left and then the next person would come in and go,
Well the what he said was nonsense.
This is the thing we learn how to act by default.
And we learned because we didn'thave a a solid acting technique
than every technique. Any technique works.
(07:11):
Yeah, you gather a bit from eachone.
You know, I read all their books, UDA Hagen, Respect for
Acting and Sandy Meisner and Robert Lewis.
And do you, do you have you readthe book by Isaac Butler, The
Method? You know that book?
No. How the 20th century learned to
oh, it's fabulous. It's incredible.
(07:31):
It would make a great miniseriesbecause it starts in the Moscow
art Theater and Stanislavski andthe and the guy who right now I
can't remember all the names butthe guy who was running the
place and and bringing in Stanislavski and and how that
all started and and him wanting to do after the seagull had
(07:52):
failed. And then wanting to revive it
there and and all of the work heput into it.
And Chekhov was very nervous because he was putting in all
these sounds of birds tweeting and getting in the way and and
then it was hailed as a masterpiece and.
What's the name of the? Book.
It's called the method. How the 20th Century Learned to
Act by Isaac Butler. He Co wrote the oral history of
(08:16):
Angels in America and. He's.
Wonderful writer. This book was just staggering.
And then it It's all about a lotof those people.
Maria Ospinskaya. Richard Boloslavsky, When they
all came over and they started teaching in America, you know
how we call sections of a scene the beats, the beats of the
(08:39):
seats. It came about because they were
all Russian and they used to call them bits.
The bits, but they talked like the beats.
So that's why people call them beats.
So then then it's about that whole history and then the group
theater and how they all startedto spread out and start their,
you know, everybody had their version of it.
(09:00):
And Stella, you know, went over and met with Stanislavsky.
And then in the book, in this particular book, they have
sections from Stanislavsky's diary where he talks about how
annoying Stella Adler is she. She has too many questions.
Speaking Speaking of the group theater, if I'm interpreting
(09:22):
this book correctly, they formedthe Group Theater where Harold
Clurman wanted to create a different theater as a reaction
to what was on Broadway, which was gayety.
And don't you find we're sort ofin the same situation now with
what is on Broadway is I look, Isee what's on Broadway and I
think it's a circus, it's a Disneyland and it's Las Vegas.
(09:43):
And I wonder if we have enough gumption or their creators out
there that are reacting to this theater on Broadway now to
create a new theater. I've said I don't want to be on
Broadway anymore. I want to be in a storefront.
I want to create theater. I don't want to be in this
particular theater. Right, it's.
Changed. Yeah, it's changed.
(10:04):
And I'm just wondering whether we'll they'll be support for it,
financial support for it and they'll be creators that will
shift it once again. I don't know whether we're
raising. A generation that would be
interested in that. Exactly.
Right. It was a time when, when I went
into this, I didn't go to a school, but I wanted to read
everything there was about the history of the theater, the
(10:27):
people who started. It's going back to the Greeks,
the Elizabethans, it all the waythrough.
I wanted to know everything. I wanted to read about the
different directors and writers.When I was a kid, I was always
fascinated by the Algonquin Roundtable, all these witty
Alcoholics. That's what I wanted.
I wanted to go to the Algonquinsand hang out with Dorothy Parker
and Robert Benchley. My whole fantasy world of of New
(10:50):
York City and what it was like and these people who are all
writers and directors and and actors and the Lunts, of course,
you know, just the history of the Lunts.
You know these. Now you mentioned these names to
kids. They don't know who they are.
They don't know you. Know Zoe Caldwell died and they
didn't. People don't remember, that's
why. So say for example Jack O'Brien
(11:12):
his. Now 2 books, but the first book
Jack B Nimble which was about the regional theater movement of
which he was a part under the tutelage of Ellis Rabb but jacks
description. Of a young Rosemary Harris
walking on stage in some restoration play.
How she made her way down the stairs and the and picking up a
(11:33):
some object in a whatever piece of business she had to do with
it or a fan or something. And he was it was so vivid.
It was like seeing a video of it.
I mean that's how we exist. We exist in people's memories.
We see it and it's there and then it's gone.
The notion of wanting to know that whereas you know people
now, it's about I'm a social. Social media influencer, I'm on
(11:56):
TikTok. You know people are being
discovered that way. Getting in celebrity, so-called
celebrity. You know those those people
haven't put in the work. Yeah, that's.
Recording videos. That's what's so annoying about
today's young actors. They do not want to put in the
work, and part of the experienceof acting is the work is putting
(12:18):
in the work to figure out how you do this.
To strengthen the muscle. And it's shocking to me that,
well, I saw it years ago. You know, I went back to school
to talk to the graduating class,our class.
Well, we were, excuse me, we were trained for the stage.
We were not trained to go to Hollywood and the subsequent
classes. And of course it's 51 years ago.
It was I my first class was in 1968.
(12:39):
Sixty 8 to 72. We were trained for the stage.
I never thought about going to Hollywood.
I thought about dedicating my life, which I did to the stage.
And now it's all about fame or it's not putting in the work.
I think, to your point, the audience will find you.
I've been saying forever, whoever dumbed down whoever's
idea it was to dumb down. America has done a brilliant
(13:00):
job. I mean, you see it in the
theater, you see it in our politics.
We're stupid as shit. It's it's crazy.
But I also think there are people, and there's a lot of
people out there that want to beeducated.
They want to be moved. They wanted a transcendent
experience in the theater, and it's about finding the place to
create that and have the audience find you.
I mean that's that's kind of my,my desire now.
(13:23):
I don't want to. I mean the Times Square to get
to the theater. Right.
The difficulty also is there's no no one has any attention span
anymore. No, everyone is on their phones.
You know when you're when you'redoing a movie or TV show and
they yell cut and you see? 25 people pick up a phone and
stare at it. So we're losing the human
(13:43):
connection. And that's really what the
theater is about. A community experience.
And you know, and yeah, the whole the expense of it all now
a ton of money. And to see somebody recreate a
movie from the 80s and it's, youknow, it's just like, well, I
don't want you just stay home and watch the movie and it.
(14:04):
Yeah. Which is, you know, it once was
affordable and it was. With the work of Tennessee
Williams and Arthur Miller, it was it was for everyone.
It was somewhere where everyone could go and it was about the
human condition what we're all going through.
And now now more often you that that's what you're finding on
television that's sort of where the best writing is turn is
(14:27):
turning up. I mean there's, you know, small
independent films of which we bring it apart at age 24.
And very proudly. And very proud.
And I hope that we become repertory players.
In the 824 repertoire. Absolutely.
Just putting it out there to 824executives.
Exactly. You know, it's so it's it is so
(14:47):
it's very difficult. Not unlike Broadway, which has
been turned into a shopping mall, You know, now it's all in
film. It's all about superheroes.
Yeah, Can I stop for a second? Because I want to ask you, since
we're on to 824, what it was like filming a musical and I if
you can talk about it. Sure, that I can talk about how
you felt. Yes.
(15:08):
Dix the musical how you sang, how you, how they filmed it, how
I'm really curious about. That I yes, I came out of
retirement. You do a a movie musical with
Larry Charles The wonderful Larry Charles directed this.
It was a a script originally titled Fucking Identical Twins.
That was the name of the when itwas a sketch at Upright Citizens
(15:30):
Brigade when these two young guys, Josh Sharp and Aaron
Jackson. Jackson did it in the basement
of A Gristedes and it was a hugesuccess for them.
And then they did it in LA and then it was picked up first by
20th Century Fox. I don't know what they were
thinking. And then eventually Peter
Chernin entertainment in age 24,picked it up.
(15:51):
You know, it's a satirical, absurdist R rated queer musical
about toxic masculinity and. And The Parent Trap?
It's the plot of The Parent Trap.
Josh and Aaron played two corporate businessmen 2 macho
guys who talk a lot about their Dicks and being successful with
women. And they work in a company
(16:12):
together and there's men, and they realize that they are
identical twins, even though they don't look alike at all.
They're both kind of lonely. And they decide to reunite their
parents and try to create a family again.
And so I play their father, who is now his come out of the
closet. He's gay.
(16:33):
And he, he lives in an apartmentwith these two creatures he
found in the sewer, which he calls the sewer boys.
They're sort of like rescue dogs.
To him. And he feeds them by by.
He feeds them deli meat. He chews it up, spits it into
their mouths, and they live in acage in my living room.
And the mother, played by the Greek, Megan Mullally, is in a
(16:55):
wheelchair and she's a shut in and she's quite eccentric.
And years ago, on a trip to Greece, you'll pardon the
expression, she says Her pussy fell off, but her son it crawled
away. And her son hit it with a flip
flop and she so they kept it andshe keeps it in a in a bag and a
baggie in her purse. So she still feels like a woman
(17:20):
anyway. So that's that's sort of where
we are. And when I read this, I I
laughed but I thought oh this isI don't know if I can do this
stuff. And then I had a zoom with Larry
Charles, who has, you know, directed Borat and you know, I
just loved him and I thought he'll he'll know.
How to do this? And then of course, I had a
(17:41):
dinner with these two guys, Joshand Aaron, and that went on for
four hours and I fell in love with them and and so I said,
well, why not? What I admired was their
hutzpah, the audacity of it all,because it's incredibly
outrageous and it's a, you know,and it's a musical.
It's there are musical numbers they wrote with this composer,
(18:02):
Carl Saint Lucie. Numbers are terrific.
They're they're tuneful and filthy and you know, we're in
this climate right now where it's books are being banned.
Don't say gay, don't do this. You better be careful what you
do in your comedy. And they come from this
generation of young queer comedians like Julio Torres and
(18:25):
Bowen Yang, who's plays God in the film Billy Eichner.
They don't have that. They're not concerned with what
you think. Oh, yay.
You know and and when I've seen it now I've seen like a few
screenings and you know people just laugh their heads off and
and there's something very freeing about it.
The cause of that if whether you're, you know, obviously the
(18:47):
target audience is is the gay audience, but you know, it's
just it's deeply silly. And outrageous and and I think
really works because it's a musical.
So this was a movie, you know, we made it in Burbank and there
were, I think they were studios or could have been a a trucking
company that just garages, you know, it was a very low budget,
(19:10):
$12 million film. So everything is sort of
handmade quality to it all. And we made it in sequence then.
So it was for me going back to you know, singing and it was
nerve wracking. I mean it was all pre recorded
but you know you're singing, youknow live in the in the in the
moment when they're filming but and you don't, you didn't really
(19:32):
have time to think about it too much because you would like they
would spend one day and you would shoot an entire number.
Ordinarily in a regular movie musical would have take would
have taken a week. So I.
But that was part of the kind ofstyle of this piece it was to
make it feel like you were back in the basement of Gristedes
(19:54):
seeing these people put on a show.
So it was turned out to. I mean we laughed ourselves
silly. We just we had a great time.
And then it's also there's a Megan the Stallion.
I don't know if you're familiar with her, the rapper.
She plays their boss. She's phenomenal.
She came and she gave. She had two days.
She did this whole. It's incredible.
(20:16):
She's she's fabulous. So it turned out to be a lot of
fun. Did you Did Larry understand how
to shoot a a musical? On camera, I don't know what
the, the context of the songs are but well no Stanley Don and
he's not. But you know he had a great DP
and she was you know it was verystraightforward nothing fancy no
(20:38):
Busby Berkeley overhead sham maybe one.
I think there was maybe one overhead shot but it no, it was
all very straightforward. And because there wasn't any
time I would make a suggestion and say well what if this
happened or the you know, or that happened and he would say
that's a great idea but we don'thave the money.
Don't have the money or the time.
(21:00):
And that became a part of I think the tone and the style of
it all. But from what I've seen with
audiences, it's working. Where's it going to be released?
Is it going to be released in theaters?
Yes, on in theaters. It opens today in select.
Congratulations, Select cities and then it it opens wide on the
(21:22):
20th. Congratulations, Nathan.
Thank you. I mean it did, you know, it's
very a big hit at the Toronto Film Festival and you know,
these screenings have gone well.How it enters, you know, the
real world where people are sitting at home just waiting to
be offended. So you know, that could spell
trouble. I I have no idea where what what
(21:43):
will happen now, but it's a great deal of fun if you're open
minded. Well, don't you think, Speaking
of that, don't you think at somepoint, and I hope it's today,
the pendulum swings back with a vengeance.
Well, yes, the pendulum, yes it usually does.
(22:03):
But this this pendulum is very slow like.
Some on the other side, Yeah, exactly, But.
It brings me back to what I saidearlier.
Whoever decided the corporations, the government,
whoever decided to dumb down thepopulation of America has done a
fucking brilliant job at it. I have PTSD for the last, you
(22:23):
know, I was at 8 years. I you know I have a finite
amount of time left. I have no, I have no idea how
long I have left. But I'm on the other side of it.
And I want to go someplace whereI wake up in the morning and,
oh, I see a blue sky. Oh, I see a red rose.
Oh, I see green ferns, you know,with nothing interfering with
that. And then I thought, OK, so I
find my serenity. Am I going to have PTSD?
(22:44):
Because I don't have PTSD anymore.
Yeah. I mean, we grew up in this
country with this stress, yeah. Right.
I have to tell you this, so I myfriend is Jake Hagey who just
had his. Met Premiere.
I just saw it. You saw that man walking, Yo, it
what a gorgeous. Production Were you there on
opening night? Not opening night, but you know,
(23:05):
there was a thing that was sort of a reception afterwards Tom
Curtihy, Terence's husband, put together.
I mean, you know, is I just lovethe production.
It was so moving. And Joyce Di Donato and and the
the, the, the actors. Susan Graham and Ryan McKinney.
Well, one, I mean, but so yeah, it was very movie sister Helen
Prejean was there. As well.
(23:26):
So I just, I just read that Joyce D Donato and Ryan McKinney
either have done this or I thinkthey have done it.
They went to sing, sing with this, and they incorporated, and
the prison played the chorus Yes.
Amazing. Oh my God.
And one of the prisoners said I I could cry.
I feel alive. When I'm singing, I feel alive.
(23:48):
I I thought, Oh my God, I just have to be reassured that there
is. Humanity left in this world and
in this country. I have to be I'm so messed up,
so emotionally, mentally messed up about what's going on.
I can't get a grasp on anything.Then you read something like
that. And I have an explosion of
emotion because it's an anomaly in our country right now and
(24:11):
it's but to to read that, to read.
And then I start to think why can't we do what the Norwegians
do and have in their prison systems have to be a little bit
a rehabilitating A rehabilitation prison.
I just witnessed this that you know the opera going there and
and having the the the life, they're lifers.
Those guys aren't getting out. Yeah, they're lifers.
(24:31):
And so to give them one shred ofhope, feeling human again is is
incredible. Yeah.
No incredibly moving story, especially that particular
story. The.
Yeah. And it was incredibly moving as
well, because it was it was Terence Mcnally's debut.
At the man and. Oh my God, that's.
Of course, yeah. Would have meant the world to
(24:54):
him at being such an opera lover.
You know that was that really got me.
He no no would have been more tickled than Terrance to to be
seeing that happening on the Medstage.
He has one other one more thing about that is I, you know, it
was the gala. So I'm sitting at a table and I
I just said to Neil Patrick Harris, I went, you cannot
(25:14):
convince me that that wasn't a real needle in the execution.
I said you cannot convince. He said no, no, no, that was
that's it. You know, we've all had them.
Fake needle. So they can't convince me
because they had a close up, youknow the Yvonne Nivo Van Hove,
they had a close up. So when Jay came over, when I
said so we got two questions, was the silence in the
(25:35):
execution. Is that orchestrating, is that
you? Is that, is that composed?
He said yes. And I said is it a real needle?
He said yes. That's a real needle going into.
Ryan McKinney Yes. It's not a like a retractable.
And it must be a nurse. It must be a real nurse that's
administering that whole execution part.
Yeah. I mean, I also, I I asked, I
(25:57):
said to Joyce Di Donato, who's magnificent, you know, and I
said, how often do you have to do this?
And she said 07 more times. And I was like, wow, I wish I
had that schedule and. Plus.
They they only perform like onceevery two days.
What does? It three days, I said.
If you were doing 8 shows a week, you'd sound like Elaine's
Trench. Speaking of a late stretch, I'm
(26:19):
turning into a late stretch. I want to go see, here we are.
And I can't go to the opening, So I called the Rick Miramontes.
I said I need some pomp. I'm turning into a way, you
know, that story about Elaine would go up to the box office
and go, where's my tickets? He told me this.
Did I tell you this? No.
She said, I don't. I said, oh, you went to see.
(26:39):
I said, that's that's a tough ticket or something.
And she said, you know, I don't pay for anything.
She said I you don't think I'm going to pay for tickets now
after all the years I've been inshow business?
I said, well, how do you work? She said.
I go up to the box office around7:50.
I say, hi, it's Elaine Stritch. Just give me a single in the
back. And I said, and they always hand
(27:00):
over a ticket. She said absolutely, except for
one show. And I said, which one?
And she said. Mama fucking Mia.
I didn't know I hate ABBA, I protest.
ABBA, how did you hate because they became famous?
In the rock'n'roll area era. And I am a devotee of the band.
(27:23):
So ABBA comes, It's the band, it's The Beatles, it's The
Rolling Stones, it's Three Dog Night.
It's all it's rock'n'roll era and it's ABBA.
And what? What?
Are you kidding me? You've got to be kidding me.
Dancing clean. Give me a break.
So I have protested all of it. Really.
I I've never seen Mamma Mia. I've never seen any of the
movies. Every time there's music on, the
(27:44):
music's on, I turn it off. Just because I'm I'm like a
swifty, only for the band. Now apparently there's there are
concerts where there are holograms of ABBA.
I I have to tell you, I saw the original hologram and it was Roy
Orbison and Maria Callas when they first started this thing.
No. And the the Roy Orbison I went.
(28:05):
First of all, they found a womanin Queen.
Let's talk about that Maria Tallis.
They found a woman in Queens wholooked like her.
They rehearsed her for Maria's movements and then they must
have they filmed for the Holocaust, Holocaust.
For the hologram and but the RoyOrbison was real footage of him
and then they just lip sync the woman lip sync.
(28:26):
Yeah, but then for the Roy Orbison, this was crazy.
He came up. Through the trap and the floor.
And he went down through the trap and the floor and Greg,
where's he going to hell comes up and it was a hologram.
Yeah, and went down. But it was the most insane
staging because he was like going into a hole round that
back to. He's dead, right?
So what, are you going to hell? Shouldn't he have, like flown
(28:48):
someplace? Shouldn't he have gone off stage
left? It was so nice where after we're
gone, there'll be holograms of you and me doing anything goes
or something. Or this?
Or this? Do a hologram exactly I have to.
Tell you about my son's podcast.So during lockdown, you know, we
were all together in Connecticutand he was so frustrated because
(29:09):
he's a white boy in his 30s and nachma in our business right
now. And I said, Josh, you have to
create your own work trying to help him out, trying to.
And what he did to create his own work was he took American
short stories, dramatized them, and then asked American actors.
To read them as if they were plays and it's called radio play
revival and and it's as if it's an old radio play you know what
(29:34):
before TV before you can go to you can pick it up from any
podcast and it's all you know it's American literature that's
in the public domain or that we've gotten permission from
playwrights that are living and we got these actors that we
started in Pandemic. And we're ending it in a strike.
So everybody was available and everybody said yes and it's it's
(29:55):
it was quite a journey for him. It's like the old Lux Radio
Theatre, Clifton Webb in PresentLaughter.
Yes. And you know what?
We should do more of that just to reintroduce Americans to our
art. So I I keep saying, I'm so
saddened by the fact that when was the last time you heard the
(30:15):
word art and culture? In daily.
Discourse in our country, in ourpoliticians.
And I mean, I I don't perhaps you were involved, but when
Colleen Dewhurst was alive and they were doing the First
National Endowment for the Arts cut, she asked a bunch of us to
go down to Washington, DC And I think for the subcommittee, you
(30:37):
know, should we cut the NationalEndowment for the Arts?
And I kept hearing from these politicians.
Low priority. Low priority.
Low priority. When, for me, art is the soul of
a nation and when have we ever been celebrated?
When have we ever been acknowledged, let alone
celebrated? I just looked at the
Macarthograph Who either knows about the MacArthur Grant.
(30:58):
I looked at the recipients of the MacArthur grant going.
It's so out of the realm of discourse in this country, and
it shouldn't be. It is always the first thing to
go or the arts. And it's, it's a human right.
Yes, it's a human right. You know, it's proven.
Now the arts are important to our to the young folks, people
(31:20):
growing up creating healthy, well-rounded human beings.
Music and art and and and dance and opera and plays and
musicals. It's all incredibly important.
Next month they're doing a concert version of The Frogs,
which I had done a revision of the libretto and we did at
(31:42):
Lincoln Center back in 2004. And so I've been, you know,
condensing it for the concert. And we had done a recording of
this concert version of the frogs we had done for Steve's
70th birthday at the Library of Congress.
And it was. I just found it so moving as,
especially after 911, the notionof this, the God Dionysus
(32:04):
feeling like the arts can affectchange in society, that he has
to go to Hades to bring back a great writer to speak to our
nation and inspire it again. It's a very romantic, idealized
notion, but it's incredibly important, incredibly.
That's why I love Ireland. Their heroes are poets and
(32:26):
novelists and they sing and who are?
I'm looking into getting my Irish citizenship now.
Both my grandparents were from Ireland and because you know,
just in case. Me too.
I have. I have my Italian citizenship.
I did it because of the first Iraq war.
My kid was draft age and I went,he's not fighting in this war.
(32:47):
There's no war he is going to fight in.
And so I hired A genealogist to find out if if one of my
grandparents had done the right thing.
And we went to my grandpa Patty first because he was murdered in
Jamestown. We figured, oh, he didn't have
time to naturalize. They can't find him in Sicily.
They just can't find him in Sicily because my grand
murdered. Yeah, ow, well, as I understand
it, and it's written up in the Dunkirk paper, there was a knock
(33:09):
on the door at 5:00 in the morning, which my grandmother
answered. And there were a couple guys out
there and said we want to speak to whatever his name was.
I don't even know what my grandfather's name was.
Shot him in the back of the head.
And my grandmother and my motherand my Uncle George and so
fucking cliche a Calabrese were taken to the Jamestown police
station for interrogation. People think members of my
(33:31):
family think that my my grandmother was involved.
My grandmother was a bootlegger.Oh, oh the The plot thickens.
So Grandma was a bootlegger. We and and her house in
Jamestown. We all vied for this sewing room
off of the kitchen because it was like being back in a womb.
It was so dark and it was a window seat and a, you know, a
(33:52):
sewing machine, whatever. Well, apparently the floorboards
lifted up and that's where she had the whiskey.
Wow. So we No.
But it was never solved. They found the gun.
He was murdered. He's buried in Jamestown.
So we went to my grandpa, Luke Pelham.
We did the right thing. And he did not naturalize.
Apparently If he didn't naturalize so he was still
considered an Italian citizen. So it was easy for me to get my
(34:13):
passport and then my blood got it, Joshua.
So I have an EU passport, which I am so grateful for, just in
case. Yeah, I know.
I was just going to say politics.
What are you doing now? What?
I was just going to say that there is there is an advantage
to being in. Our profession, I think, and
having the desire to broaden ourour visions.
(34:36):
If I didn't act, I would be a hobo or just be a traveler.
A hobo? Yeah, why not?
I would be a hobo just I would rather see the world than do
anything else. I enjoy going into other
countries and assimilating into their culture to understand it.
And I think that has a lot to dowith the fact that as an actor,
(34:56):
it is our job. To open our eyes and see and
accept so, so many Americans don't want to.
They don't want to leave the country.
They don't want to. They're not interested in what's
going on in the rest of the world.
It's terrible. It is terrible because you you
see how fortunate this country is, how fortunate the citizens
(35:18):
of this country is are rather, and if they only traveled, they
would have more gratitude to what we do have, what seems to
be a right washing machines and dryers.
Dishwashers, 2 cars in the driveway.
A house? If you have that, yeah.
But a lot of people can't affordthat.
You know, well, not anymore. But it's just so.
I mean, I'm grateful that I was born into this.
(35:39):
I mean, I do believe that I was chosen for this because it was.
I was. I started a four years old and
fell in love with the audience and never looked back.
So I always said it chose me. I've always said it chose me,
you know, Right now, with the strike on, it's.
I finished something in Atlanta that I'm very proud of and just
waiting to see what happens. I'm singing, I do the concert
work and there's there's interest in plays, but I kind of
(36:01):
want to stay off the stage for awhile because I don't want to do
any shows a week anymore. I gave it 50 years.
It's enough. I understand.
Yeah, I think I have a few more left in me.
But yeah, it's it gets harder and harder.
There's no life. It's, I mean, I'm built for it.
You're built for it. We we have the muscle to do it.
It's not that that's not the problem.
(36:22):
The problem is the one day off, we have no life.
The life is on the stage. And like I said, I haven't got
that much life left. So I want to be able to have,
I'd rather do film where you still get two days off and maybe
a whole week off. Yeah, I know.
Oh, yeah. And then, you know, you do these
things, you know, like this play.
(36:42):
I did pictures from home last season and, you know, it's
Bartlett, Cher, it's Danny Burstein, Zoe Wanamaker.
You know, I thought it was a a beautiful play, very funny, very
moving story about this son and his parents and this
photographer Larry Sultan photographed him over a period
(37:02):
of a decade and then and wrote this, what became his master
work and he interviewed them andit was, it was a way of also I
think him trying to figure out his father and the effect that's
had on him and and how it's affecting his family.
And it just seemed very, I hate to use the word relatable, but
you know it's about parents and mortality.
(37:24):
It seemed like something we all have to go through or are going
through and then it was totally dismissed by the the critics.
You know, when you go you, you work, you know, two years or
something, you do a few readingsand you, you know and you work
on this thing and you and then it's over, You know, it really
hurt business. It was so across the boards
(37:47):
dismissive and yet the audience,you know, it was a crowd
pleaser. The audience seemed to love it.
You could hear people sniffling and and I I would say to Danny
Urstein, well we can't they theycan't just be pretending to be
nice for our sake. They obviously like this play
and it seems to be a very effective piece and so I I was
(38:11):
it was very puzzling and disappointing when it was just
kind of I mean really kind of beaten up and I I you know and
what can you do that's that was that's what they all decided and
and so it shortened its life andand so after that.
It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking.
Well, I don't know if I want to go through that again.
Exactly. You put all that work in and and
(38:32):
David Mehmet said he didn't carewhat the critics said as long as
he knew the critics lumped the theater.
And I don't know whether that's the case, but let's figure
something positive. I look forward to seeing you
this summer at your Hampstead estate.
Your ancestral estate in the Hamptons anytime.
Yes, it's always fun out there with Scotty and the gang.
Yeah, absolutely. PS We're here so we should have
(38:54):
dinner. We can walk to each other.
Oh yeah, that's right. That would be lovely.
I would love that. Yeah, I'm around now, so.
Me too. Yeah, we should have that.
We should talk other than on a podcast and have a dinner.
Exactly, yes. And well, thank you, a 24, for
putting Nathan and me together. Yes, thank you.
It was great. It was really great.
(39:14):
Nathan, don't you think we covered a lot of topics?
We sure did. Love you, doll.
Nice to talk. Love you too.
Bye. Thank you very much.
All right. Take care.
Thanks for listening. A 24 podcast is produced by us.
A 24 Special thanks to our editor Tom Wyatt and Robot
Repair who composed our theme.
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