Schele Williams On Directing 'Aida,' 'The Wiz' & 'The Notebook' While Being A Mother Of Two + More
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
What's up his way up with Angela Ye, I'm Angela yee.
And how exciting Shelley Williams is here with me. Hey, listen,
we were just before this interview even started having a
lot of conversations about Broadway, and I was telling you
I took my mom to see Aita twice and you
were in it.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
You did the whole round with Tony Braxton.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I did the whole run, yeah, Tony, Heather Deborah Cox
wo the whole run.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And now so wait, Aida is coming back too, right?
Speaker 4 (00:28):
Aida is coming back?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yes, that's amazing revival. Okay, That's what I'm talking about. Now,
that's a full circle moment, right, it is, So talk
to me about just like how cause I know we're here.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
We're going to talk about a lot of different things.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
But since we were already off camera mentioning that yes,
you know, talk to me how about how exciting that
was to get that call and what it was like
when you were actually in the Broadway play.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
It was.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
It was transformation to get that call because I had
been thinking about that story ever since I did it.
When I did the show, when I finished Aita is
when I became came a director, because I had gone
through a show that was about enslaved people where the
leading woman is a black, you know, Nubian princess, and
(01:11):
we didn't have the conversations about blackness about African culture,
both Egyptian and Nubian in the ways that I had wished.
And I came out of that production thinking, I want
to become the person behind the table so I can
begin to shift these narratives and have the conversations that
are entrenching the theater that we're making in our history.
(01:34):
And so I got the privilege a few years ago
to be asked by Disney to reimagine a new Ida,
and I have entrenched it in an African history.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, I was going to ask you about reimagining something
that people are familiar with the story. You're introducing a
new audience at the same time for people who aren't.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
But there are some people who.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Are like, very devoted to the original story. But you
also have to put your own spin on it.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
I mean, you know, the way that I like to
say it is, you know, I have two children, and
I love them both. You can love the old one
and love the new one. Like it's not like you
gotta pick you can like a boat, and you could, so,
you know. I do love when people have such affinity
for what was but can create space for what is now.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Although they do say the younger child usually has it
easier because the first child has to go through all
the trials and tribulations and get all the punishments, and
then you tend to be a little bit more lenient
with that.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Well, you asked Sasha if that's true, because I don't
know if she did.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
Here that's what.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
They say, But yeah, and Broadway in particular is a
place that for myself, I love going to place, and
I love taking my friends. I've taken Jazzmine, who's up
here sometimes guest hosting. I took her to see her
first ever Broadway play. We went to go see Ja
Jazz hair Braiding. And then I also took Laura, who
manages our coffee shop and she's on lip service. I
(02:51):
took her to go see for Colored Girls, yes, when
that was on Brody. But what I don't like is
that sometimes those plays come and go so fast, and
I really am always trying to advocate for us to
go to the theatre more because I feel like it's
such a great experience to go with your friends, to
go with your family, to go with your significant other.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And that brings me to the Notebook.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yes, because my boyfriend loves the Notebook and when I
told him, I was like, we're going to go see that,
you know, on Broadway. He was so excited, which was
funny to me because I love that. Yeah, because sometimes
like you try to bring a guy. I took him
to go see Wicked and he actually enjoyed it. You know,
because for some people this is their first time doing
something like that, and I think what play you take
(03:31):
them to matters a lot, you know. So people who
are familiar with the Notebook, can you talk about this
because it's a musical way and so you're directing the Notebook.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
This is your directorial Broadway debut, right correct?
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Okay, So we.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Got to get into all of that because the Notebook
is an iconic, iconic love story. And I heard they're
selling Kleenex in the in the theater.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Well, I mean we kind of had to. It was like,
we got to give people's sleeves a break.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
People are passively next in the aisles.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Past people were like, okay, we'll let you have your
own box.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
How about that.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, so tell me about reimagining the Notebook as a
musical lumberaway.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
So I was approached about this piece in twenty twenty,
and I co directed with my dear friend Michael grif
And Michael called me and said, you know, hey, I'm
directing this piece and I really love for you to
do it with me. And it was surprising, you know,
because directors don't often co direct together, and certainly he's
a very experienced.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
Director, but he said, we're telling this piece.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
In a different kind of way, and we are imagining
a world in which the Alleys and Noah's represent many
racial you know, many racial cultures, and we want to
talk with you about that because it's really important that
we're representing them authentically. Ooh okay and I and I said, well,
(04:58):
let me read it, let me, you know, hear to the music.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
And see what I think.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
And it just so happened that I was spending the
month my family spent a month in Ohio with my family.
This is during COVID, and we drove down to kind
of expand our bubble and my mom has Alzheimer's.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
And so as I was reading this, I was living it.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
You know, my dad is Noah, my mom is Ali,
their high school sweethearts.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
It was just like it hit me so hard.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
And because they were imagining the younger Alli's as black,
I knew how important it was to expand this narrative
to us too, to say, this story belongs to us.
We also know this kind of love. We also know
the pain of Alzheimer's, We also have the joy of
first love. It was an opportunity to say that we
(05:48):
belong inside these stories.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
And these are all narratives.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
You know, in theater in movies, we see movies that
never include us, but I feel them so deeply.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I let a little bit of a disconnect when we
don't see ourselves.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Of course, is that at all?
Speaker 4 (06:04):
I mean? You know, I was explaining to a younger generation.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
We've got some younger people doing the Whiz, And I said,
you know, when I grew up, there were no books,
you know, children's books that had illustrations with black kids
in them. There were no cartoons, there were no Disney
movies with black princesses.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Of like, when The Whiz came.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Out, like that was everything, oh right, The music was
sell fire, like the acting and everything.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
And now as an adult.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
I go see movies like The Notebook, I go see
movies that I love, and I still don't see myself.
So to be able to be a part of that
change on stage, even if I can't do it on screen,
this is my world, right, So to be a part
of that and to say we're not going to ignore
your race. What is the challenge in this piece? The
(06:51):
challenges the show took place in the thirties and forties, Well,
now that's a whole that's a big problem when you're
going to introduce black women into this and mixed couple.
So we moved the time period, okay, and we found
instead of it being in the South, we moved it too.
We call it like a coastal region. But we actually
found some beaches, cars beach you know in that Baltimore,
(07:12):
that Chesapeake Bay area that were black beaches, okay, that
had big concerts that were integrated.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
And we're like, here's a place where Noah and Ali
that story could be true in nineteen sixty.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
See, I wasn't certain if you guys are like we're
just gonna cast the people who are the best in
these roles, or if it was a conscientious decision like,
we want to make sure that the younger Alley is
a black woman.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
So it really was a conscious decision, was.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Intentional, it was it was an intentional expansion of the
narrative so that more people could see themselves. Yeah, and
to also say that the rules of theater are true.
If I sit in the in a chair and I
say this is a car, everybody goes, yeah, uh huh,
it's a car.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Right, it's suspension of disbelief. If it's raining in the
theater like it is, and it's raining, it's.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Rain, you hear crickets, they're like, oh, they're outside. Right.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
So when we say that we are introducing the rules
of this. When one person says Ali and the next
person says Ali, and people go.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
I don't get it, it's like, well you don't want
to get it right.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
But if she says Ali, and this person says Ali,
and this person says we're.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
All like, yeah, it's Ali, everybody right, you know, you
know what it is, you know what it And anybody
who acts like, oh, this isn't you know, working for me? Yeah,
then it's kind of like you're not making any effort
at all. Because there's so many things that we see
and witness. I just think about even the Little Mermaid,
And people were mad when the Little Mermaid was like,
I don't even get what It's not even a real thing, guys,
And you were okay with pretending this was real when
(08:38):
she was white, So you can, you know, And that's
what great acting does, and a great story does, and
let you get so involved with the story that you
can follow it and not have to be like, wait,
wait a minute, this doesn't master with this, this isn't
really happening. No, you're following what the story is. Yeah,
And I can imagine, man, that must have been for you.
Was it therapeutic to actually get so into, you know,
(09:01):
the heart of this play of the Notebook while you
were going through what you were going through with your mom.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Oh I cried a lot. I cried a lot.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
I mean, Michael's mom also had a dementia. Our leading lady,
our older ally, Marianne Plunkett, her mother had dementia. So
we had like lots of conversations that were entrenched and
deep in our own versions of it, knowing that none
of us have like the defining like it presents itself
(09:28):
in so many ways.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
But but we tried to be very true to the
reality of it.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, we wanted to be honest and telling this story,
and we wanted to be honest and you know the love,
you know, this incredible.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Love, man, that is like a love story. What did
they call it? It's not twin flames. But when two
people are connected, like not kismet, It's not I can't
remember what the phrase it.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
You know, what is it called? K Yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:01):
What they call Yeah, when two people are like connected
and there it's like by.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
The universe like sots.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, kind of like somates. But there's another phrase that
they use. But yeah, so and that feels like that's it.
That's the kind of love that everybody wants. Yeah, you
know and that, But sometimes we might think it's also
so romanticized, like can we ever find that because there's
a lot of flow and there were a lot of
flaws in there and Noah and Ally's relationships.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
I mean, you know the advice I give to everybody
when they're getting married, and it's the advice that I
took myself when I got married. I said, you want
to marry the person that you want to spend the
worst day of your life because everybody wants to be
with you when you win in an oscar, right, But
on the day that you use your parents, who do
you want to be with?
Speaker 4 (10:45):
And if that's not that person and you don't walk
down that.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Aisle, that's a great piece of advice.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Because that's the person that's that's going to be there
for you always on your worst day of your life.
If this is the person that you want to be with,
then that's your person.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
And you grew up in Dayton, Ohio.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I did, Okay, so tid something about growing up in Dayton,
Ohio because I know I saw that you saw the whiz,
like you said when you were seven years old, yes,
and so that was kind of groundbreaking for you. But
when did you realize the path that you wanted to take?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
So I was always surrounded by a theater.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
I was always surrounded out by music.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
My dad's the drummer for the Ohio Players. So yeah, okay,
my dad's diamond. So I grew up on the road
a lot, you know, going.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
To a lot of concerts, going to a lot of shows.
So I always knew that a life in the arts
was real. Like some people grow up and they're like
that's not a real job. I'm like, it's a real job.
Not like so I never considered that I could not
pursue my dreams. It was always something that was very
real to me.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
I grew up as a drummer like my dad. That
was like, it was like a little drum prodigy. And
it wasn't until my senior year of high school and
I played in the pit of all the shows and
was like, my senior year of I played Dorothy and
the Whiz and that was it and I was it.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
Bro It up ended my whole life. I then had
to like, I had scholarships to go to college and music.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
I turned them down to take a gap year to
study theater, and then I the following year, like I
worked at the mall. Everybody was like, oh my gosh,
I thought you were gonna be something. I really, you know,
all my friends up for college and I'm like working
at the mall and taking in acting classes. And then
I got a scholarship to am to hear in New York, Okay,
(12:29):
and that's you know.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
How it all began. But I really followed my heart.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Wow, So did you look up to like Shelley E?
Because I know when I was showing up Shelley as
a drummer. She made me want to be like, I
need to learn how to play the drum. That was
my nickname in junior high school.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Everybody call me Sheilee. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
So you have all these different talents and I know
that comes in handy on Broadway too. So you decided
it's time for me to move behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yes, as well? Would you ever go back to being
plan imagine it? You can't imagine it? So you like
this scene?
Speaker 4 (12:59):
I love it. I love it so much, you know.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
I love being able to have conversations with actors and creatives.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
I love auditions because I know how.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Hard it is to come in an audition for someone,
and I love giving them their dignity.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
I love looking at people and especially telling young black
actors it's okay to take up space.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
The amount of people that cry in my audition room
because I just give them permission to be their full
selves right when they walk in and they think they
always have to be in the box that they expect
that you want them to be in. But to say,
I want you to be as expansive as you want
to be. I want to know that your authentic voice
is the voice that I want to hear, not the
(13:44):
voice that was trained you were trained to be, but
your truth is what I value and what I want
to see, and just giving them permission to be their
full selves. I can't imagine not doing that, right.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Wow, And it feels like you're doing an amazing job
from the gigs that you've been getting because it's like
you're simultaneously directing two plays right now.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, that's now, that's tough. I didn't even know. Is
that a common thing in Broadway? I didn't think so.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Yeah, certainly not with musicals.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Okay, so talk to me about how you manage that
because I know Broadway is, you know, a few blocks,
so I know, going from one place to the other.
But the amount of like switching gears in your head,
you know, how is that process?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
No one would have planned this, and if it hadn't
been for the pandemic, these shows would not have happened
the same year, right, Okay, this is really a result
of everything shut down and then everything started going again.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
But when we got the schedule and both shows got theaters,
I was like, oh Jesus, we're in for it. And
then it was just about how were we compared.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Like it was really compartmentalizing, right. You know, I have
an amazing assistant, and I would say, Okay, on Monday
and Wednesdays, I'm going to work on the notebook on
two stays and Thursdays, I'm gonna work on the Wiz,
and then on Friday, I'm gonna work on new projects.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
So for a while there it was I was doing like.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
A Whiz meeting and then a notebook meeting, and then
AAZ casting meeting, and like I was all over the place,
and I'm like, no, I just gotta.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Stay on one show a day, Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
So that was the way that I got compartmentalizing. Yes,
and then you also have two daughters. Yeah, how do
you deal with all of that in the midst of there?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
There?
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Well, at some point, I'm always failing somebody, right, somebody's
like either somebody's not getting fed or picked.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Up or somebody to get cast. Like something's always happening.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Yeah, But you know, every.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Day I have to forgive myself and I just have
to try harder and course correct, right, and every day
I model for my girls. You know, there's this my
favorite gospel song as we fall down, you know, but
I'm like, you know, every day I get back up again, right,
and so you know, in this year that was so challenging.
I communicated a lot, like really was very clear. You know,
(16:03):
my husband is amazing, We have a great village. We
talked about where I needed to be, when I needed
to be, the things that I knew I.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Was going to miss.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
I was going to miss them in their own musical.
I was going to miss some really big moments in
their lives. There were, you know, events that happened for
the Notebook that I was going to miss because I
was working all the whiz Like there were.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Just like wow, things that those are hard priorities.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
They're hard priorities. But all I can do is my best.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Well, you know what, when you talk about communicating, thinking
about something like the notebook, just imagine something like that
would never happen today because she would't have missed all
those letters because he would have been texting her like you.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Need to get mine DM and her like you don't
get these notes I'm sending you.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
It's a different day and age when people are you know,
trying to write each other letters and communicate that way
you really could lose touch with.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Somebody, You could lose touch.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yeah, nowadays they have to purposely be ignoring you in
order for something like that to happen. What were some
things in the notebook that you were like, Okay, this
has to be cause you know, there's some iconic moments.
What were some things that you felt like had to
be in the play no matter what.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
But we're challenging the rain, Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I was like, it's got a rain, Like, there's no question,
and I don't have you seen the show yet, no,
but I'm planning it.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Oh, we rain okay, and it's beautiful. I mean raining,
That's the one thing I've heard about.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
Is so exciting because it defies all the rules. You're
in a building, it's.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Not supposed to happen, and it in its its downpours
on stage like it is really really so beautiful. We
have water on stage, we have a little lake on stage, Like.
There are just so many things that make it feel environmental.
You feel like you're in this coastal town. You feel
like you're in the house, you feel like you're in
the nursing home. It's the magic of a feeder that
(17:49):
you know, you go you suspend belief and then you
buy into the magic and you go on that journey.
So that was that were that was something you know
that we obviously knew we had to have.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I had it was randing tears in a theater.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Two Oh. The end of the play is so I
think cathartic.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
You know, there's there's sadness, especially if you've lived it
or you know there's that kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
There's something that's really beautiful about the communal nature because
it's like audible sab from people all around you. But
then you realize you're not alone in your sadness.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Right, that other people have felt this too, and that's
something that was so beautiful about expanding this.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Story to other people. We have many races represented.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
On our show, and to be able to allow other
cultures to come in and see themselves and see their
belonging inside this story felt necessary and important because that's
actually the truth, that's the world that we live in.
Doing the other is actually creating a false narrative of
a very real place that we live, and it's just
(18:56):
time to start telling more truths.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
So us crying together. There's so much laughter.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
The book is really funny and The only reason why
the crying works is because there.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Is so much laughter.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Us laughing together, us crying together, us feeling together feels
so necessary after years of COVID.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
And being so separate.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah. Absolutely, it's like a.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
Big expansiveness of humanity in a small space.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
How do you see Broadway changing the way that it
has been? Because I remember I used to go to
plays and I wouldn't really see any black people in
the theater, and I didn't see a lot of plays
that maybe I was like interested in going to see.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
But now I feel like it's a.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Lot more diverse, you know, And of course there's still
always a long way to go, but I always want
to make sure that we're figuring out ways to get
more of us to go into the theater because I
love to see that. Like I love when I go
and I go to a play and I see like
a you know, a bunch of people that look like
me and people like me in the place. But what
do you think about how things have progress with Broadway plays?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
I think that shows in general, I there's a distinction
between having a black person on stage and having black representation,
because black people performing for audiences has been around for right,
but having someone authentically represent their humanity as a black
(20:22):
person on stage has not. And that's the difference is
I think you know, when I go see a show,
there's a lot of shows on Broadway now that have
black people that aren't black shows, and we know that,
and then we go see it and we go.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
To our friends.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
But when we do see something that we're like, that's us,
you run and tell that.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Can you tell all your friends?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Right?
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Because that's when we want to be able to.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Say to Broadway as a whole, we know ourselves, this
is what we like.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
We want more of this, please and stop doing that
other crap.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
So it is important when you see something that you
love that you tell everybody, and everybody comes and we
begin to shift the stories that we tell in the
way that we tell them.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Our trauma, right.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I thought MDA the Musical was a great play for
people to go see. Like I went to go see
that one a couple of times too, And like I said,
I'm always trying to make sure we talk about that
when we're on this show, in particular when people are
coming out, so that they actually feel encouraged to want
to do that because sometimes I feel like people also
don't feel like I don't know, it's hard to explain,
(21:32):
but the fact that so many of my friends have
never been, and I'm always like, we live in New York.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, you know, sometimes people think it's expensive too.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
But there are definitely ways to get cheaper tickets all
the time, all the time.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
All the time. Yeah, there's all kinds of deals to
come out. In certain months, shows are cheaper than others.
January February shows are really cheap. Like there's times when
the broadways down and you can go get the cheaper
you know. There's also like incredible black artists working behind
the scene, yep, costume designers, set designers, sound designers, composers, writers,
(22:05):
so there can be shows, you.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Know, I still have some flavor.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I saw Appropriate last night, and that was written by
a black writer. Okay, but it's a white cast, right,
But I saw what he was saying in the piece and.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
I was like, oh, Brandon, that's so good, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Like there's I was so excited to see the piece.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
I was so excited to support him.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And his writing, and I was like, you have a
really important narrative going on. Really important comments about the
world in this piece, but you would look at it
and say, oh, this is a white show, right right.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
But ye know, And I also feel like when it
comes to actors, for them, the kind of the pinnacle
of being able to act is being able to do theater. Yeah,
because it is definitely a different type of beast than
being on a TV show or in a movie. You know,
being on a play, there's no takes. You got to
(22:56):
just nail it the way that you're doing. It's something happens.
You got to keep it moving, keep people captivated. And
like I was with Erika Alexander. We went to go
see The Lion King together and she wants to do
Broadway so bad, and I think she would be amazing.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
And they did a.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Tour with us afterward, and she got on the stage
and she was like, I'm claiming it. I'm going to
do Broadway, Like I'm going to act in a Broadway player.
I want to do this so bad.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Oh I love that.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, So I'm putting that out there for her, if
you know. Yeah, at some point I think she would
be amazing. But that's what I love too, like to
see for you, have you done movies or acting in
like movies, and.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
I have not acted in movies.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I've worked on movies behind the scenes as a socio choreographer.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Okay, because I was going to ask you if it
was different, like even for you working behind the scenes,
you know, from movies in theater, Like, what's the major differences.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
It's it's night and day.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Yeah, it's completely different. They require different disciplines. When I
think about theater performers.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
It's so athletic.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Mm.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
I mean it really, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
I was explaining to was talking to a group of
kids yesterday after the matinee of The Whiz, and I
was saying, how many of you play sports?
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Ninety percent of raise your hands, and I was like.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
There is nothing more athletic than doing a Broadway show.
You have to care about what you eat, how you sleep,
how you warm up. You are doing a physical show
eight times a week. They saw the matiname like, there's
another show tonight. All that everything's a muscle. You're singing
is a muscle. You're dancing with your muscles. Your body
is your instrument, and it has to be conditioned to
(24:29):
go four years, eight times a week. It is like
whether you have a cold, whether you have, you know,
when you have, you're slightly injured, you like banded yourself up.
You're going on stage like you're navigating so much, and
there's a live audience there every night. You know, it's
different when you're doing film and television.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
It's so for me, it's so slow.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
You have a lot of long breaks.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
You do one scene like twenty times, and then you
go in to back and you're waiting for your next
part and everybody breaks for lunch and it's a long day.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
And you're like that moment like am I standing on
my mark? And like there's just so much that's so
specific about it, but it's curated into these tiny little bits, right,
And you've got someone that's telling the audience the only
thing they can see. You're like, you can only see
this zooming in on their eyes. Right in theater, you
(25:22):
as an audience have autonomy to look anywhere you want.
So every person on that stage has to be telling
the story. If you're like third row in the back,
you have to be telling the story. And that is
that's like every single set piece and there's a book
on the bookshelf. It has to make sense. And that's
The part that I love about directing is like there's
(25:43):
nothing on that stage, so that did not get past
my eyes.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Every ear ring? Would that person be able to afford
those earrings?
Speaker 5 (25:49):
Right?
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Are those shoes with that person?
Speaker 5 (25:50):
That couch, the upholstery on that couch. Wait, they're sitting
in blue. The couch can't be blue because then they'll
look like, you know, a gecko. You know, like everything
is thought out. Oh may that couch should have a
little rip in it because it's you know, it's old.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
They've been living there for a long time. Like every
single little thing has to tell the story. And that
to me is extraordinary. That is because the audience could
be truly just like, while the scene is going on,
just start looking around the room.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Oh that is probably the worst.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Yeah, yeah, but it's beautiful to do that.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
You know, I thought you meant not paying attention.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
You mean no, But I mean, think about what we've
learned about humans is there's so many ways that different
people pay attention. Right, Right, You've got people with very
short attention spans and they want to like look all
over the place. But it doesn't mean that they're not
absorbing the story as thoroughly.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
As you it's nice and no one has their phone
out though no one, Now that part is nice.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Put your phone.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Away for a couple of hours and pay attention and
be in the moment and connect.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, you know your do its act Also you said
I do, okay, so you see this is going to
be their path and I don't know what they're going
to do.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Honestly, they enjoy it, and I enjoy for them because
whether you end up acting or not, you know how
to take up space. You know how to speak in
front of an audience with boldness. You know how to
be a partner to someone, how to listen and respond,
like the fundamentals of acting.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
You know, knowing what your purpose.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Is, having intention, All of those things serve you in life. Yeah,
you can a job interview right, So no matter what
they end up doing in life, the training that acting
gives you, I think is will serve you everywhere.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Well.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
On top of all this, you also have a book
out if you don't do enough already, Okay, Shelley, your
legacy begins first, where is to empower?
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Beautifully illustrated by the way, So y'all we're an amazing team.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Putting this together, But just tell us about this book
and why you felt like it was important. I thought
immediately about how so many books are being banned, you know,
in different states, and how this is really important for
people to understand their ancestry. So tell me about your
Legacy begins.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
So my first book was called Your Legacy, A Bold
Reclaiming of our Enslaved History. And this is this new
book is a prequel to that book. But that first book,
Your Legacy, was my way of talking to my children
about their enslaved ancestors. I didn't know how to have
(28:27):
that conversation. My husband is Jewish, and every year it
passed over, there's a whole ritual talking about their Jewish
enslaved enslavement, right, And I was like, uh, at some
point I need to tell them about their enslaved history.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
And I didn't know how to do it. And then
when I started looking for resources, nothing was giving me comfort, right,
And then I started thinking about my way in doing.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
A lot more research, and I had so much shame
around the way that I I was taught about our
enslaved ancestry.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Because you were taught in school.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
I was taught in school by strangers who did not
look like me, and I was, you know, one of
two black kids in the class. So then everybody looks
at us when they see people in chains in the
history book, and it was so awful, and I did
not want that for my girls. And when I started
doing the research, I was surprised at things that I
(29:24):
had never considered. The first line of my book is
your story begins in Africa, And the framing of that
is I wanted to teach our children about who they
were and not what happened to.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Them, the pride and the ancestors and where you're from.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Yes, you know, them speaking their native languages, them growing kingdoms, right,
you know, and then when they came to America that
they brought that brilliance with them that they they created
so much in this country with their ingenuity, their dignity.
(30:02):
They learned different languages, although they were prohibited from a
formal education, they created a language, right. They were separated
by all the languages they spoke, so they couldn't communicate,
and they created pigeon they created music that connected them.
You know, all of these these acts of defiance that
led to such bravery, all of the things that they invented,
(30:24):
but were never allowed to put their names on get
patents for you know, I wanted our children to know
that they have a legacy of genius, and that genius
is passed down to them. The words that I use
in the book are you know, brilliance, ingenuity, grace, dignity.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
You know, I use a series of.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Words that describe the characters of our ancestors, and so
in my new book, Your Legacy Begins, this book does
not deal with enslavement at all, but only about these
incredible words that have been passed down, these traits that
are a gift to our children as a part of
(31:07):
who they are and who they will be and their
great purpose in this world.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Man, I do not know how you do it all,
but I just want to say, it seems like you're
doing it all to an amazing exceptional level. So I
just want to make sure and I know that like
you've been getting your accolades, but they are well deserved.
I feel like this is just your time, thank you.
I mean, it's been your time. But just to see
everything that you've been accomplishing, you know, these are like huge,
(31:35):
huge deals. I mean, the notebook, the Wiz. Sometimes you
got to just sit back and think, like, thank you Jesus.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
Yeah, I think that a lot. I do, I feel.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
But also the work that you put in, you know,
is really like you've done a lot of exceptional things
before this, but the work that you put in, like
we all get to witness and experience it on such
a high level, and this is really helping other people
you know that are coming behind you too. Is such
a huge deal. So thank you so much for taking
the time to come here. I cannot wait for my
(32:06):
Notebook date night. Yes you called me after, I will,
and I'm going to come right back up here and
tell everybody because when I tell you, those reviews can
be scathing. But I saw the reviews for the Notebook,
and I saw the New York Times with you in particular,
and it was amazing, you know, for people they were.
I remember it started off saying something like often you'll
see a play adapted to a movie, but the other
(32:28):
way around can be terrible. And this definitely lived beyond expectations.
And so I just want to encourage everybody to check
it out because I know I am.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
I feel like I feel really good about it.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
And I also went and looked at different clips online
and you know me, I'm doing my research at all times.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
So I'm excited to go see it.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
The only reason I haven't seen it yet is because
we were trying to coordinate schedules because my boyfriend is like,
I'm coming to see it with you. Yeah, so I
couldn't go with one of my friends and that was
the deal. And you've come to the Whiz Yeah absolutely,
Oh that's a given. We already have dates I think
on the calendar up here.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
So oh, I'm so excited. Yeah you have to you
have to call me afterwards.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
So I'm excited and I'm glad to see you the
person that is directing, So thank you for coming.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Well
What's up his way up with Angela Ye, I'm Angela yee.
And how exciting Shelley Williams is here with me. Hey, listen,
we were just before this interview even started having a
lot of conversations about Broadway, and I was telling you
I took my mom to see Aita twice and you
were in it.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
You did the whole round with Tony Braxton.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
I did the whole run, yeah, Tony, Heather Deborah Cox
wo the whole run.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And now so wait, Aida is coming back too, right?
Speaker 4 (00:28):
Aida is coming back?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yes, that's amazing revival. Okay, That's what I'm talking about. Now,
that's a full circle moment, right, it is, So talk
to me about just like how cause I know we're here.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
We're going to talk about a lot of different things.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
But since we were already off camera mentioning that yes,
you know, talk to me how about how exciting that
was to get that call and what it was like
when you were actually in the Broadway play.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
It was.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
It was transformation to get that call because I had
been thinking about that story ever since I did it.
When I did the show, when I finished Aita is
when I became came a director, because I had gone
through a show that was about enslaved people where the
leading woman is a black, you know, Nubian princess, and
(01:11):
we didn't have the conversations about blackness about African culture,
both Egyptian and Nubian in the ways that I had wished.
And I came out of that production thinking, I want
to become the person behind the table so I can
begin to shift these narratives and have the conversations that
are entrenching the theater that we're making in our history.
(01:34):
And so I got the privilege a few years ago
to be asked by Disney to reimagine a new Ida,
and I have entrenched it in an African history.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, I was going to ask you about reimagining something
that people are familiar with the story. You're introducing a
new audience at the same time for people who aren't.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
But there are some people who.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Are like, very devoted to the original story. But you
also have to put your own spin on it.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
I mean, you know, the way that I like to
say it is, you know, I have two children, and
I love them both. You can love the old one
and love the new one. Like it's not like you
gotta pick you can like a boat, and you could, so,
you know. I do love when people have such affinity
for what was but can create space for what is now.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Although they do say the younger child usually has it
easier because the first child has to go through all
the trials and tribulations and get all the punishments, and
then you tend to be a little bit more lenient
with that.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Well, you asked Sasha if that's true, because I don't
know if she did.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
Here that's what.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
They say, But yeah, and Broadway in particular is a
place that for myself, I love going to place, and
I love taking my friends. I've taken Jazzmine, who's up
here sometimes guest hosting. I took her to see her
first ever Broadway play. We went to go see Ja
Jazz hair Braiding. And then I also took Laura, who
manages our coffee shop and she's on lip service. I
(02:51):
took her to go see for Colored Girls, yes, when
that was on Brody. But what I don't like is
that sometimes those plays come and go so fast, and
I really am always trying to advocate for us to
go to the theatre more because I feel like it's
such a great experience to go with your friends, to
go with your family, to go with your significant other.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And that brings me to the Notebook.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yes, because my boyfriend loves the Notebook and when I
told him, I was like, we're going to go see that,
you know, on Broadway. He was so excited, which was
funny to me because I love that. Yeah, because sometimes
like you try to bring a guy. I took him
to go see Wicked and he actually enjoyed it. You know,
because for some people this is their first time doing
something like that, and I think what play you take
(03:31):
them to matters a lot, you know. So people who
are familiar with the Notebook, can you talk about this
because it's a musical way and so you're directing the Notebook.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
This is your directorial Broadway debut, right correct?
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Okay, So we.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Got to get into all of that because the Notebook
is an iconic, iconic love story. And I heard they're
selling Kleenex in the in the theater.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Well, I mean we kind of had to. It was like,
we got to give people's sleeves a break.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
People are passively next in the aisles.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Past people were like, okay, we'll let you have your
own box.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
How about that.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, so tell me about reimagining the Notebook as a
musical lumberaway.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
So I was approached about this piece in twenty twenty,
and I co directed with my dear friend Michael grif
And Michael called me and said, you know, hey, I'm
directing this piece and I really love for you to
do it with me. And it was surprising, you know,
because directors don't often co direct together, and certainly he's
a very experienced.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
Director, but he said, we're telling this piece.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
In a different kind of way, and we are imagining
a world in which the Alleys and Noah's represent many
racial you know, many racial cultures, and we want to
talk with you about that because it's really important that
we're representing them authentically. Ooh okay and I and I said, well,
(04:58):
let me read it, let me, you know, hear to the music.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
And see what I think.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
And it just so happened that I was spending the
month my family spent a month in Ohio with my family.
This is during COVID, and we drove down to kind
of expand our bubble and my mom has Alzheimer's.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
And so as I was reading this, I was living it.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
You know, my dad is Noah, my mom is Ali,
their high school sweethearts.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
It was just like it hit me so hard.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
And because they were imagining the younger Alli's as black,
I knew how important it was to expand this narrative
to us too, to say, this story belongs to us.
We also know this kind of love. We also know
the pain of Alzheimer's, We also have the joy of
first love. It was an opportunity to say that we
(05:48):
belong inside these stories.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
And these are all narratives.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
You know, in theater in movies, we see movies that
never include us, but I feel them so deeply.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I let a little bit of a disconnect when we
don't see ourselves.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Of course, is that at all?
Speaker 4 (06:04):
I mean? You know, I was explaining to a younger generation.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
We've got some younger people doing the Whiz, And I said,
you know, when I grew up, there were no books,
you know, children's books that had illustrations with black kids
in them. There were no cartoons, there were no Disney
movies with black princesses.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Of like, when The Whiz came.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Out, like that was everything, oh right, The music was
sell fire, like the acting and everything.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
And now as an adult.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
I go see movies like The Notebook, I go see
movies that I love, and I still don't see myself.
So to be able to be a part of that
change on stage, even if I can't do it on screen,
this is my world, right, So to be a part
of that and to say we're not going to ignore
your race. What is the challenge in this piece? The
(06:51):
challenges the show took place in the thirties and forties, Well,
now that's a whole that's a big problem when you're
going to introduce black women into this and mixed couple.
So we moved the time period, okay, and we found
instead of it being in the South, we moved it too.
We call it like a coastal region. But we actually
found some beaches, cars beach you know in that Baltimore,
(07:12):
that Chesapeake Bay area that were black beaches, okay, that
had big concerts that were integrated.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
And we're like, here's a place where Noah and Ali
that story could be true in nineteen sixty.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
See, I wasn't certain if you guys are like we're
just gonna cast the people who are the best in
these roles, or if it was a conscientious decision like,
we want to make sure that the younger Alley is
a black woman.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
So it really was a conscious decision, was.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Intentional, it was it was an intentional expansion of the
narrative so that more people could see themselves. Yeah, and
to also say that the rules of theater are true.
If I sit in the in a chair and I
say this is a car, everybody goes, yeah, uh huh,
it's a car.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Right, it's suspension of disbelief. If it's raining in the
theater like it is, and it's raining, it's.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Rain, you hear crickets, they're like, oh, they're outside. Right.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
So when we say that we are introducing the rules
of this. When one person says Ali and the next
person says Ali, and people go.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
I don't get it, it's like, well you don't want
to get it right.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
But if she says Ali, and this person says Ali,
and this person says we're.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
All like, yeah, it's Ali, everybody right, you know, you
know what it is, you know what it And anybody
who acts like, oh, this isn't you know, working for me? Yeah,
then it's kind of like you're not making any effort
at all. Because there's so many things that we see
and witness. I just think about even the Little Mermaid,
And people were mad when the Little Mermaid was like,
I don't even get what It's not even a real thing, guys,
And you were okay with pretending this was real when
(08:38):
she was white, So you can, you know, And that's
what great acting does, and a great story does, and
let you get so involved with the story that you
can follow it and not have to be like, wait,
wait a minute, this doesn't master with this, this isn't
really happening. No, you're following what the story is. Yeah,
And I can imagine, man, that must have been for you.
Was it therapeutic to actually get so into, you know,
(09:01):
the heart of this play of the Notebook while you
were going through what you were going through with your mom.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Oh I cried a lot. I cried a lot.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
I mean, Michael's mom also had a dementia. Our leading lady,
our older ally, Marianne Plunkett, her mother had dementia. So
we had like lots of conversations that were entrenched and
deep in our own versions of it, knowing that none
of us have like the defining like it presents itself
(09:28):
in so many ways.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
But but we tried to be very true to the
reality of it.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, we wanted to be honest and telling this story,
and we wanted to be honest and you know the love,
you know, this incredible.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Love, man, that is like a love story. What did
they call it? It's not twin flames. But when two
people are connected, like not kismet, It's not I can't
remember what the phrase it.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
You know, what is it called? K Yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:01):
What they call Yeah, when two people are like connected
and there it's like by.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
The universe like sots.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, kind of like somates. But there's another phrase that
they use. But yeah, so and that feels like that's it.
That's the kind of love that everybody wants. Yeah, you
know and that, But sometimes we might think it's also
so romanticized, like can we ever find that because there's
a lot of flow and there were a lot of
flaws in there and Noah and Ally's relationships.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
I mean, you know the advice I give to everybody
when they're getting married, and it's the advice that I
took myself when I got married. I said, you want
to marry the person that you want to spend the
worst day of your life because everybody wants to be
with you when you win in an oscar, right, But
on the day that you use your parents, who do
you want to be with?
Speaker 4 (10:45):
And if that's not that person and you don't walk
down that.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Aisle, that's a great piece of advice.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Because that's the person that's that's going to be there
for you always on your worst day of your life.
If this is the person that you want to be with,
then that's your person.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
And you grew up in Dayton, Ohio.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I did, Okay, so tid something about growing up in Dayton,
Ohio because I know I saw that you saw the whiz,
like you said when you were seven years old, yes,
and so that was kind of groundbreaking for you. But
when did you realize the path that you wanted to take?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
So I was always surrounded by a theater.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
I was always surrounded out by music.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
My dad's the drummer for the Ohio Players. So yeah, okay,
my dad's diamond. So I grew up on the road
a lot, you know, going.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
To a lot of concerts, going to a lot of shows.
So I always knew that a life in the arts
was real. Like some people grow up and they're like
that's not a real job. I'm like, it's a real job.
Not like so I never considered that I could not
pursue my dreams. It was always something that was very
real to me.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
I grew up as a drummer like my dad. That
was like, it was like a little drum prodigy. And
it wasn't until my senior year of high school and
I played in the pit of all the shows and
was like, my senior year of I played Dorothy and
the Whiz and that was it and I was it.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
Bro It up ended my whole life. I then had
to like, I had scholarships to go to college and music.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
I turned them down to take a gap year to
study theater, and then I the following year, like I
worked at the mall. Everybody was like, oh my gosh,
I thought you were gonna be something. I really, you know,
all my friends up for college and I'm like working
at the mall and taking in acting classes. And then
I got a scholarship to am to hear in New York, Okay,
(12:29):
and that's you know.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
How it all began. But I really followed my heart.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Wow, So did you look up to like Shelley E?
Because I know when I was showing up Shelley as
a drummer. She made me want to be like, I
need to learn how to play the drum. That was
my nickname in junior high school.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Everybody call me Sheilee. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
So you have all these different talents and I know
that comes in handy on Broadway too. So you decided
it's time for me to move behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yes, as well? Would you ever go back to being
plan imagine it? You can't imagine it? So you like
this scene?
Speaker 4 (12:59):
I love it. I love it so much, you know.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
I love being able to have conversations with actors and creatives.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
I love auditions because I know how.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Hard it is to come in an audition for someone,
and I love giving them their dignity.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
I love looking at people and especially telling young black
actors it's okay to take up space.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
The amount of people that cry in my audition room
because I just give them permission to be their full
selves right when they walk in and they think they
always have to be in the box that they expect
that you want them to be in. But to say,
I want you to be as expansive as you want
to be. I want to know that your authentic voice
is the voice that I want to hear, not the
(13:44):
voice that was trained you were trained to be, but
your truth is what I value and what I want
to see, and just giving them permission to be their
full selves. I can't imagine not doing that, right.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Wow, And it feels like you're doing an amazing job
from the gigs that you've been getting because it's like
you're simultaneously directing two plays right now.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, that's now, that's tough. I didn't even know. Is
that a common thing in Broadway? I didn't think so.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Yeah, certainly not with musicals.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Okay, so talk to me about how you manage that
because I know Broadway is, you know, a few blocks,
so I know, going from one place to the other.
But the amount of like switching gears in your head,
you know, how is that process?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
No one would have planned this, and if it hadn't
been for the pandemic, these shows would not have happened
the same year, right, Okay, this is really a result
of everything shut down and then everything started going again.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
But when we got the schedule and both shows got theaters,
I was like, oh Jesus, we're in for it. And
then it was just about how were we compared.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Like it was really compartmentalizing, right. You know, I have
an amazing assistant, and I would say, Okay, on Monday
and Wednesdays, I'm going to work on the notebook on
two stays and Thursdays, I'm gonna work on the Wiz,
and then on Friday, I'm gonna work on new projects.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
So for a while there it was I was doing like.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
A Whiz meeting and then a notebook meeting, and then
AAZ casting meeting, and like I was all over the place,
and I'm like, no, I just gotta.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Stay on one show a day, Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
So that was the way that I got compartmentalizing. Yes,
and then you also have two daughters. Yeah, how do
you deal with all of that in the midst of there?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
There?
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Well, at some point, I'm always failing somebody, right, somebody's
like either somebody's not getting fed or picked.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Up or somebody to get cast. Like something's always happening.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Yeah, But you know, every.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Day I have to forgive myself and I just have
to try harder and course correct, right, and every day
I model for my girls. You know, there's this my
favorite gospel song as we fall down, you know, but
I'm like, you know, every day I get back up again, right,
and so you know, in this year that was so challenging.
I communicated a lot, like really was very clear. You know,
(16:03):
my husband is amazing, We have a great village. We
talked about where I needed to be, when I needed
to be, the things that I knew I.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Was going to miss.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
I was going to miss them in their own musical.
I was going to miss some really big moments in
their lives. There were, you know, events that happened for
the Notebook that I was going to miss because I
was working all the whiz Like there were.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Just like wow, things that those are hard priorities.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
They're hard priorities. But all I can do is my best.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Well, you know what, when you talk about communicating, thinking
about something like the notebook, just imagine something like that
would never happen today because she would't have missed all
those letters because he would have been texting her like you.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Need to get mine DM and her like you don't
get these notes I'm sending you.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
It's a different day and age when people are you know,
trying to write each other letters and communicate that way
you really could lose touch with.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Somebody, You could lose touch.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yeah, nowadays they have to purposely be ignoring you in
order for something like that to happen. What were some
things in the notebook that you were like, Okay, this
has to be cause you know, there's some iconic moments.
What were some things that you felt like had to
be in the play no matter what.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
But we're challenging the rain, Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I was like, it's got a rain, Like, there's no question,
and I don't have you seen the show yet, no,
but I'm planning it.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Oh, we rain okay, and it's beautiful. I mean raining,
That's the one thing I've heard about.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
Is so exciting because it defies all the rules. You're
in a building, it's.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Not supposed to happen, and it in its its downpours
on stage like it is really really so beautiful. We
have water on stage, we have a little lake on stage, Like.
There are just so many things that make it feel environmental.
You feel like you're in this coastal town. You feel
like you're in the house, you feel like you're in
the nursing home. It's the magic of a feeder that
(17:49):
you know, you go you suspend belief and then you
buy into the magic and you go on that journey.
So that was that were that was something you know
that we obviously knew we had to have.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I had it was randing tears in a theater.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Two Oh. The end of the play is so I
think cathartic.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
You know, there's there's sadness, especially if you've lived it
or you know there's that kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
There's something that's really beautiful about the communal nature because
it's like audible sab from people all around you. But
then you realize you're not alone in your sadness.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Right, that other people have felt this too, and that's
something that was so beautiful about expanding this.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Story to other people. We have many races represented.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
On our show, and to be able to allow other
cultures to come in and see themselves and see their
belonging inside this story felt necessary and important because that's
actually the truth, that's the world that we live in.
Doing the other is actually creating a false narrative of
a very real place that we live, and it's just
(18:56):
time to start telling more truths.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
So us crying together. There's so much laughter.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
The book is really funny and The only reason why
the crying works is because there.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
Is so much laughter.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Us laughing together, us crying together, us feeling together feels
so necessary after years of COVID.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
And being so separate.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah. Absolutely, it's like a.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
Big expansiveness of humanity in a small space.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
How do you see Broadway changing the way that it
has been? Because I remember I used to go to
plays and I wouldn't really see any black people in
the theater, and I didn't see a lot of plays
that maybe I was like interested in going to see.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
But now I feel like it's a.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Lot more diverse, you know, And of course there's still
always a long way to go, but I always want
to make sure that we're figuring out ways to get
more of us to go into the theater because I
love to see that. Like I love when I go
and I go to a play and I see like
a you know, a bunch of people that look like
me and people like me in the place. But what
do you think about how things have progress with Broadway plays?
Speaker 3 (20:02):
I think that shows in general, I there's a distinction
between having a black person on stage and having black representation,
because black people performing for audiences has been around for right,
but having someone authentically represent their humanity as a black
(20:22):
person on stage has not. And that's the difference is
I think you know, when I go see a show,
there's a lot of shows on Broadway now that have
black people that aren't black shows, and we know that,
and then we go see it and we go.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
To our friends.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
But when we do see something that we're like, that's us,
you run and tell that.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Can you tell all your friends?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Right?
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Because that's when we want to be able to.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Say to Broadway as a whole, we know ourselves, this
is what we like.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
We want more of this, please and stop doing that
other crap.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
So it is important when you see something that you
love that you tell everybody, and everybody comes and we
begin to shift the stories that we tell in the
way that we tell them.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Our trauma, right.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I thought MDA the Musical was a great play for
people to go see. Like I went to go see
that one a couple of times too, And like I said,
I'm always trying to make sure we talk about that
when we're on this show, in particular when people are
coming out, so that they actually feel encouraged to want
to do that because sometimes I feel like people also
don't feel like I don't know, it's hard to explain,
(21:32):
but the fact that so many of my friends have
never been, and I'm always like, we live in New York.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, you know, sometimes people think it's expensive too.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
But there are definitely ways to get cheaper tickets all
the time, all the time.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
All the time. Yeah, there's all kinds of deals to
come out. In certain months, shows are cheaper than others.
January February shows are really cheap. Like there's times when
the broadways down and you can go get the cheaper
you know. There's also like incredible black artists working behind
the scene, yep, costume designers, set designers, sound designers, composers, writers,
(22:05):
so there can be shows, you.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Know, I still have some flavor.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I saw Appropriate last night, and that was written by
a black writer. Okay, but it's a white cast, right,
But I saw what he was saying in the piece and.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
I was like, oh, Brandon, that's so good, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Like there's I was so excited to see the piece.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
I was so excited to support him.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And his writing, and I was like, you have a
really important narrative going on. Really important comments about the
world in this piece, but you would look at it
and say, oh, this is a white show, right right.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
But ye know, And I also feel like when it
comes to actors, for them, the kind of the pinnacle
of being able to act is being able to do theater. Yeah,
because it is definitely a different type of beast than
being on a TV show or in a movie. You know,
being on a play, there's no takes. You got to
(22:56):
just nail it the way that you're doing. It's something happens.
You got to keep it moving, keep people captivated. And
like I was with Erika Alexander. We went to go
see The Lion King together and she wants to do
Broadway so bad, and I think she would be amazing.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
And they did a.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Tour with us afterward, and she got on the stage
and she was like, I'm claiming it. I'm going to
do Broadway, Like I'm going to act in a Broadway player.
I want to do this so bad.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Oh I love that.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yeah, So I'm putting that out there for her, if
you know. Yeah, at some point I think she would
be amazing. But that's what I love too, like to
see for you, have you done movies or acting in
like movies, and.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
I have not acted in movies.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I've worked on movies behind the scenes as a socio choreographer.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Okay, because I was going to ask you if it
was different, like even for you working behind the scenes,
you know, from movies in theater, Like, what's the major differences.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
It's it's night and day.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Yeah, it's completely different. They require different disciplines. When I
think about theater performers.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
It's so athletic.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Mm.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
I mean it really, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
I was explaining to was talking to a group of
kids yesterday after the matinee of The Whiz, and I
was saying, how many of you play sports?
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Ninety percent of raise your hands, and I was like.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
There is nothing more athletic than doing a Broadway show.
You have to care about what you eat, how you sleep,
how you warm up. You are doing a physical show
eight times a week. They saw the matiname like, there's
another show tonight. All that everything's a muscle. You're singing
is a muscle. You're dancing with your muscles. Your body
is your instrument, and it has to be conditioned to
(24:29):
go four years, eight times a week. It is like
whether you have a cold, whether you have, you know,
when you have, you're slightly injured, you like banded yourself up.
You're going on stage like you're navigating so much, and
there's a live audience there every night. You know, it's
different when you're doing film and television.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
It's so for me, it's so slow.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
You have a lot of long breaks.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
You do one scene like twenty times, and then you
go in to back and you're waiting for your next
part and everybody breaks for lunch and it's a long day.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
And you're like that moment like am I standing on
my mark? And like there's just so much that's so
specific about it, but it's curated into these tiny little bits, right,
And you've got someone that's telling the audience the only
thing they can see. You're like, you can only see
this zooming in on their eyes. Right in theater, you
(25:22):
as an audience have autonomy to look anywhere you want.
So every person on that stage has to be telling
the story. If you're like third row in the back,
you have to be telling the story. And that is
that's like every single set piece and there's a book
on the bookshelf. It has to make sense. And that's
The part that I love about directing is like there's
(25:43):
nothing on that stage, so that did not get past
my eyes.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Every ear ring? Would that person be able to afford
those earrings?
Speaker 5 (25:49):
Right?
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Are those shoes with that person?
Speaker 5 (25:50):
That couch, the upholstery on that couch. Wait, they're sitting
in blue. The couch can't be blue because then they'll
look like, you know, a gecko. You know, like everything
is thought out. Oh may that couch should have a
little rip in it because it's you know, it's old.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
They've been living there for a long time. Like every
single little thing has to tell the story. And that
to me is extraordinary. That is because the audience could
be truly just like, while the scene is going on,
just start looking around the room.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Oh that is probably the worst.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Yeah, yeah, but it's beautiful to do that.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
You know, I thought you meant not paying attention.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
You mean no, But I mean, think about what we've
learned about humans is there's so many ways that different
people pay attention. Right, Right, You've got people with very
short attention spans and they want to like look all
over the place. But it doesn't mean that they're not
absorbing the story as thoroughly.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
As you it's nice and no one has their phone
out though no one, Now that part is nice.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Put your phone.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Away for a couple of hours and pay attention and
be in the moment and connect.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, you know your do its act Also you said
I do, okay, so you see this is going to
be their path and I don't know what they're going
to do.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Honestly, they enjoy it, and I enjoy for them because
whether you end up acting or not, you know how
to take up space. You know how to speak in
front of an audience with boldness. You know how to
be a partner to someone, how to listen and respond,
like the fundamentals of acting.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
You know, knowing what your purpose.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Is, having intention, All of those things serve you in life. Yeah,
you can a job interview right, So no matter what
they end up doing in life, the training that acting
gives you, I think is will serve you everywhere.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Well.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
On top of all this, you also have a book
out if you don't do enough already, Okay, Shelley, your
legacy begins first, where is to empower?
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Beautifully illustrated by the way, So y'all we're an amazing team.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Putting this together, But just tell us about this book
and why you felt like it was important. I thought
immediately about how so many books are being banned, you know,
in different states, and how this is really important for
people to understand their ancestry. So tell me about your
Legacy begins.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
So my first book was called Your Legacy, A Bold
Reclaiming of our Enslaved History. And this is this new
book is a prequel to that book. But that first book,
Your Legacy, was my way of talking to my children
about their enslaved ancestors. I didn't know how to have
(28:27):
that conversation. My husband is Jewish, and every year it
passed over, there's a whole ritual talking about their Jewish
enslaved enslavement, right, And I was like, uh, at some
point I need to tell them about their enslaved history.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
And I didn't know how to do it. And then
when I started looking for resources, nothing was giving me comfort, right,
And then I started thinking about my way in doing.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
A lot more research, and I had so much shame
around the way that I I was taught about our
enslaved ancestry.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Because you were taught in school.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
I was taught in school by strangers who did not
look like me, and I was, you know, one of
two black kids in the class. So then everybody looks
at us when they see people in chains in the
history book, and it was so awful, and I did
not want that for my girls. And when I started
doing the research, I was surprised at things that I
(29:24):
had never considered. The first line of my book is
your story begins in Africa, And the framing of that
is I wanted to teach our children about who they
were and not what happened to.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Them, the pride and the ancestors and where you're from.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Yes, you know, them speaking their native languages, them growing kingdoms, right,
you know, and then when they came to America that
they brought that brilliance with them that they they created
so much in this country with their ingenuity, their dignity.
(30:02):
They learned different languages, although they were prohibited from a
formal education, they created a language, right. They were separated
by all the languages they spoke, so they couldn't communicate,
and they created pigeon they created music that connected them.
You know, all of these these acts of defiance that
led to such bravery, all of the things that they invented,
(30:24):
but were never allowed to put their names on get
patents for you know, I wanted our children to know
that they have a legacy of genius, and that genius
is passed down to them. The words that I use
in the book are you know, brilliance, ingenuity, grace, dignity.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
You know, I use a series of.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Words that describe the characters of our ancestors, and so
in my new book, Your Legacy Begins, this book does
not deal with enslavement at all, but only about these
incredible words that have been passed down, these traits that
are a gift to our children as a part of
(31:07):
who they are and who they will be and their
great purpose in this world.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Man, I do not know how you do it all,
but I just want to say, it seems like you're
doing it all to an amazing exceptional level. So I
just want to make sure and I know that like
you've been getting your accolades, but they are well deserved.
I feel like this is just your time, thank you.
I mean, it's been your time. But just to see
everything that you've been accomplishing, you know, these are like huge,
(31:35):
huge deals. I mean, the notebook, the Wiz. Sometimes you
got to just sit back and think, like, thank you Jesus.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
Yeah, I think that a lot. I do, I feel.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
But also the work that you put in, you know,
is really like you've done a lot of exceptional things
before this, but the work that you put in, like
we all get to witness and experience it on such
a high level, and this is really helping other people
you know that are coming behind you too. Is such
a huge deal. So thank you so much for taking
the time to come here. I cannot wait for my
(32:06):
Notebook date night. Yes you called me after, I will,
and I'm going to come right back up here and
tell everybody because when I tell you, those reviews can
be scathing. But I saw the reviews for the Notebook,
and I saw the New York Times with you in particular,
and it was amazing, you know, for people they were.
I remember it started off saying something like often you'll
see a play adapted to a movie, but the other
(32:28):
way around can be terrible. And this definitely lived beyond expectations.
And so I just want to encourage everybody to check
it out because I know I am.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
I feel like I feel really good about it.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
And I also went and looked at different clips online
and you know me, I'm doing my research at all times.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
So I'm excited to go see it.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
The only reason I haven't seen it yet is because
we were trying to coordinate schedules because my boyfriend is like,
I'm coming to see it with you. Yeah, so I
couldn't go with one of my friends and that was
the deal. And you've come to the Whiz Yeah absolutely,
Oh that's a given. We already have dates I think
on the calendar up here.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
So oh, I'm so excited. Yeah you have to you
have to call me afterwards.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
So I'm excited and I'm glad to see you the
person that is directing, So thank you for coming.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Well
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