Luther: Never Too Much: Luther's Legacy, Patti LaBelle Controversy, Luther Vandross' Sexuality +More
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up its way up at Angela.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Gee, and this is really exciting for me because you know,
this is my genre, my type of music. Today we're
going to be talking about Luther Never too much. This
documentary that was Don Porter, you directed this, right, and
Fanzie Thornton. You were a close friend of Luther vangos
Is from the age of fourteen and also did music
with him. And then Leah and Smith over at CNN
(00:24):
a producer.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Or No, I'm actually not a CNN anymore.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Okay, I was with CNN for many years, but no,
I've been working with Don on a couple of projects.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
So I was I was a producer on this project.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Okay, because you've done a lot of other documentaries over there,
and this is a CNN documentary, Yes it is.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
But we actually created this before okay bought it. Yeah, Okay,
that's great. I love that.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I was trying to I know it's in theaters, right,
and then I was like, how do we watch this
on streaming?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
So it was like, you got to get the Hulu
Plus and.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Then I went it's in a lot of places. Yeah,
it's just.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
On own okay and Max streaming.
Speaker 5 (01:04):
It's in theaters until the ninth of February and select
AMC theaters.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Okay, all right, perfect, it feels like a concert. So
I fortunately was able to watch it. And when I
tell you, my friends and I we were all in
here singing along because Luthor is like, first of all,
we don't have to say Luther Vanjos, It's just Luthor.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
It's one of those one word people.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
You know, it's a Kendrick and siss a song right now.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Have fitting that it is great super Bowl Sunday, like
we're waiting, you know, it.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Has to.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
What did you think when you heard that song? Because
that's my favorite song on the album, the Luther song, just.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
You know, just loving hearing his voice in Cheryl Lynn's
voice in there, and the fact that they're being brought
to this generation.
Speaker 7 (01:51):
A lot of people don't know this music.
Speaker 6 (01:53):
So to really just hear Luther's voice and Cheryl's voice
in there, and the fact that they got that, you know,
it's just.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
You know, Hendrick is the songwriter and poet really of
our time. To have him honor Luther's songwriting this way,
you know, he is reflecting what we learned in making
this film and what Phonsie already knew, you know.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Which is Luthor was the goat.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Fanzie talked to us about young Luther and a young Phonzie.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
And your dreams and aspirations at that age.
Speaker 6 (02:25):
Well, that's what's the wonderful part about this story. I
met Luther. His sister, a girl that I went to
church with, who I got to say her name because
always says, you'd never say my name. Her name is
Deanie Spencer, and she was in high school with Luther.
And she's always tell me and she and I used
to sing in church together. And she's always saying, there's
this guy that goes to taff High School with me
(02:46):
named Luther. He's a singer, he's a songwriter, he's got
a group. You need to know him. I saying, why,
She says, just something, there's some way you would click.
So she gave him my phone number. He called me.
His sister lived across the street from me in the projects,
and I went over and joined his group, the Shades
of Jade, a young and it's funny.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I love how she.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Was like, he's a singer, so he was sixteen singer songwriter.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
People was little adults, Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, what
you can.
Speaker 7 (03:15):
Do He was always assembling people. He was.
Speaker 6 (03:18):
He was like assembling singers and assembling musicians, and most
of us wound up being on ninety five percent of
his recordings. I have someone like ninety five percent of
the records, and I was always the vocal contractor. He
would call me and say, FONZI called the singers were
doing a new album. But anyway, a young Luther was
somebody who had vision. He was somebody that, you know,
(03:39):
knew what he liked.
Speaker 7 (03:40):
You know.
Speaker 6 (03:40):
There's a portion in the film where he says, you
got to get the shoes if you're going to.
Speaker 7 (03:43):
Be in the group.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
It was a very fancy was thirty two dollars.
Speaker 6 (03:51):
My mother ain't giving me no twenty three dollars to
buy no shoes to be in no group, you know.
Speaker 7 (03:55):
And that's what it was. But he was. He was
a brilliant person.
Speaker 6 (03:57):
He was the first vocal arranger and songwriter that I'd
ever met, you know, and Luther. I often say that
Luther found the hole in the fence. He had assembled
a few of his friends who were singers, myself, Robin Clark,
Diane Summer, and we sang all around Harlem. We would
listening to my brother. You know, we did amateur nights
sometimes and he was at the apologis. But he was
(04:23):
extremely intuitive. He's the funniest person you ever want to know.
But when it was time to get down to the music,
he was serious. Even at fifteen years old. You know,
he knew what he was doing.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
These kids today, I don't know, it's a different type
of feel. Yeah, yeah, you know, Don and Leah. For
you guys putting this together and seeing all this old footage,
I imagine you had a ton of old footage. It
had to be really hard to figure out what are
we keeping and what are we taking out?
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Because it was really fun.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
To watch just to see like the actual footage and
the interviews and the performances. To see Mariah Harry on stage.
Yeah yeah, you know singing Less Love with Luthor. I mean,
that was a phenomenal moment that I had never, you know,
seen before. So what was that like going through that
footage and figuring out what are we keeping?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
What do we have to cut?
Speaker 4 (05:14):
It was It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
I mean, you know, the benefit to working with Sony
Music and Publishing and to working with the estate is
we had a lot to go through, so you know,
Leah is a Luther super fan, so she was always,
you know, keeping us honest about what to.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Keep in because the hardest thing for this.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
Movie is is what you just asked is what to
keep what to put in? Everybody has their favorite Luther song.
My mother was like, I know you're going to put
this in.
Speaker 8 (05:42):
You know.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
Our composer is Robert Glasper and he's like, I know
you're going to put this in. And we didn't have
his favorite song to this and he was like where
So we didn't have so amazing and we were like,
you know what.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
A big moment.
Speaker 5 (05:59):
But you know, the thing that struck me and going
through the interviews and hearing the songs is how many
of them were so spectacular. There are so few artists
who like every song's about right, and that's Luthor. So
you know, I know, you know Leah going through Leah
was so stressed because we couldn't find change, We couldn't
(06:21):
find a place.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
To put his early music. And she was one hundred
percent right.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
She would be like, you know, I'd come in and
she'd be like, I'm still looking for this change footage.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
It was important because I felt like that is for
my generation. You know, I feel like that was one
of the first times we remember hearing him with searching and.
Speaker 8 (06:40):
Glow of love.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
I mean, even now you go out and those those
songs are so popular, you know, So we really wanted
to highlight that moment, and we found that wonderful bite
from Phonsie where he talked about a coupled with some
archival that Luther had, and we were just lucky to
also have some really great interviews from from Luthor himself,
you know, Dawn from that at she said, you know,
he wanted it, she wanted it to be told in
(07:02):
his voice, and so we made a point of doing that.
But I mean, listen, I've had worse jobs than watching
Luthor performances, and like I mean, I would think of
like Superstar, like we had so many he would do
that like almost every night, like long thirteen minutes, fourteen minutes,
you know. And I remember we were talking to our
wonderful editor Mark and one of them I was like,
(07:24):
this isn't the right version. So we pull this out
of like this one, this one is better, you know,
like stuff like that, to really make it, you know,
to honor him in the way that you know, we
thought he should be honored.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
And it's called never too much? Why did you pick
that song at it? Because that had to also be
hard to figure out which title are we giving it.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Or was it instant?
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Like you know, it was kind of you can really
never get too much of him, I mean. And you know,
one of the things that was so delightful to remember
and discover is the Luther was everywhere.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
He was singing those jingles. You know, there were some phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Black talent Sesame Street Street.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Like Valerie Simpson. They were singing jingles. They were singing commercials.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
And money doing it, Welcome.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
To Miller Time and juicy fruit gum, things like We're.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Man those commercial has been nice and too I don't
bring her thirst right here.
Speaker 8 (08:22):
That's the lyrics that we always it.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Was a nice Geno's I want some Geno's pizza.
Speaker 7 (08:28):
Right Remember McDuffie came to the.
Speaker 6 (08:31):
Introduced her from the audience and said, y'all got to know,
this is part of the reason that Luther was in jingles.
This woman was was the primary black woman jingle producer
at that point, and she used to call him, she
used to call me. You know, just a lot of
us to come in and sing, and it's just yeah,
you know, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
She was great, and you know James Ingram Flag you know,
and Nick bal Yeah exactly, and everybody kind of went
through because now.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
We call them friends.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I went to my college, so when I was registering,
they were there and they're all white because she was
my year, and my mom was like, she embarrassed me.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
She was like, I just want to say I love
your guys music.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It was solid, solid musics. Wrong now, Phonzie, how did
you feel when you flashed back and saw all this
old footage and interviews and performances that I'm sure it's
been a while since you even.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
Well, you know what to tell you the truth, there
were many years that I had footage and audio in
the back room of my apartment. What happened is after
Luther passed away, at one point his mother asked me,
would you go over to the storage space with the
family so we can look through, you know, what's in there.
And the thing is, she said, I would love to
be the custodian of his of his archives, you know,
(09:50):
meaning you know, his videos and his audios. So I
just gathered everything up and took it home and had
it in my back room for like maybe fourteen years
while we went out and tried to find the right
people to help us do this film. A lot of
people were absolutely the wrong people. And then these two
ladies walked into the door with a meeting with the
estate and it was like instance team. It's like that's them,
(10:14):
you know, so so but but but looking at the
footage and looking to you know, Luther and I were
really best friends.
Speaker 7 (10:19):
Every day.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
We really spoke every day, you know what I'm saying.
And the thing is he we learned a lot from
each other. So watching the footage and just watching everything,
I was sort of already there, you know, because watching
the footage gave me a chance to hear him, gave
me a chance to see him.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
And as it is a definite story of your life.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
You know, you meet when you're you're teenagers, and then
you were with him the.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Day he died.
Speaker 7 (10:42):
Absolutely, Like what a friendship?
Speaker 6 (10:45):
You know, absolutely, And I don't think everybody's ever had
a best friend. They don't know what it's like to
have a brother from another mother. They don't really know
what that is.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
I was going to say, that's a rarity to be
friends and work together and not fall out for so
long because we hear so many stories like who you
start off with a lot of times is that who
you end up with.
Speaker 6 (11:03):
It's absolute true. And he was amazing because, like I said,
I was the vocal contractor. So he would say, fans,
we were doing a new record, he said, first person
you need to call is Sissy Houston, because because Whitney's mother,
Sissy Houston, sang on every single record that Luther ever
did for exactly, So he would always say, you know,
(11:24):
call to Watha, call Sissy, called Paul Atte, call Michelle,
and you'll come in and let's do these records. And
so it was always the same people he was. He
assembled people from the beginning, and we were people that
sort of hung with him the whole time doing the recordings.
And then he had his his stage group, which was
Kevin Owens, Lisa Fisher and Aba Cherry, you know what
I'm saying. So the man was so astute musically, and
(11:46):
he had his own vision, he had his own taste
about what he liked and what he didn't like, and
like I said, he found the whole. He was a
boss from the beginning, and he found the hole in
the fence and we walked through it with him, and.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
He knew early on, I'm not just singing these lyrics
as somebody else right, absolutely need to create.
Speaker 7 (12:03):
Well that was that.
Speaker 6 (12:04):
That was that part about Change because he had done
his lead singing voice became more prominent as Luther Vandross
when he was doing Change. And the thing is they
wanted him to officially be the lead singer of the group.
He said, I'm a writer and a producer. I got
my own thing that I need to say, and that's uh,
that's the story.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
And that group was created by producers to basically imitate Chic.
That's so it was like they were like, well, who
can we grab from Chic and you know, have him
and He's like, no, I want.
Speaker 6 (12:32):
To do my and our tag team was was always this.
So Luther sang on the early Chic records and I
sang on the second.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yesaw both of you members.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
You know, So seeing him on there, because I know
his story you know so well too, feels like some
fun times seventies.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
That did.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
I mean even that era of like disco and everybody
was you know, and a lot of people didn't make.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
It out of that era.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Musically the way that they would have liked to. But
y'all continued to evolve and thrive even after that.
Speaker 6 (13:13):
Well, there was also a quality that was that came
across because disco was wonderful. We all danced in the clubs,
We sang on a lot of those records through the years.
But there was a certain quality that came from chic
And then when Luther stuffed up and did Change, there
was a certain quality of what he was doing that
that lead vocal nobody had ever when they first started
playing the Change records, people said, who is that person?
(13:33):
You know what I'm saying, And that's what walked him
into his deal. He said he had saved all the
money he had made from ROBERTA. Flack and his sessions
and stuff like that and put it into creating his
his demos, which got him his deal at Epic Records,
and that's how it became.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
You know, I think a lot of people don't realize
that history, don't realize that Luther Vandross is on every
shekh absolutely. So that's why we wanted to highlight that
because I think that that that's a story that's not
always told, is how and one thing I'd love.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
About I feel like I know Luther. He's passed before.
Speaker 5 (14:07):
You know, but we watched so many interviews and watched
him like you know, we we know his mannerisms. But
you know, seeing how these artists helped each other, you know,
that is not always a story that we hear. So
when Nile Rogers in the film says like we sang
on my album, then we would go, you know, across
town and sing. And then you know, Phonsie's being honest,
(14:27):
but he's on all the all the chic albums.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
He's you know, roxy music.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
Like there's a lot of performers, Yeah, we don't know,
you know who all is bringing that fullness and those skills.
And that is part of Luther's story, you know, is
that generosity and that.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Is the real creativity. These people were not just mixing.
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
It wasn't like we were in the studio.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
It was in the studio.
Speaker 5 (15:01):
And that I think that resonates and comes through when
you ask, you know, when a person thinks about like
why is this music timeless?
Speaker 4 (15:09):
I think you're hearing that artistry.
Speaker 6 (15:12):
Absolutely actually, and you just said something that is so
important is he was so artistically generous This was a
man who every night that he did his show, Lisa
Fisher sang how can I Use the Pain? He was
the one that helped Lisa get her deal at Electra Records,
which and how Can I Ease the Pain became a
Grammy winning record, and Luther used to let her sing
(15:32):
it every night on stage. To Wata Age who sings
Juicy Food by m Tomate, he would let Tawatha come
on and sing Juicy Food every night. Kevin Owens would
sing every night. If you were doing an album, like
when I was doing my albums in the eighties, he
came in, he sang background, he arranged you.
Speaker 7 (15:47):
He was the guy type of person.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Did you, boss, Luther? Did you tell me.
Speaker 8 (15:53):
Pretty much?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Could you just could you?
Speaker 6 (15:57):
Could you just bend a little bit more? He was
always so on point. He was so musically astute that
anybody that ever worked with him, whether a singer or
a musician, got to be better because of the stuff
that he knew. You know, we used to walk around
Harlem with his favorite vocal groups group was the Sweet Inspirations,
which was once again Sissy Houston's group, and the things
(16:20):
we used to walk around Harlem with him giving our parts. Fonzie,
you sing this, Robin, you sing that, Diane, you sing that,
and you know that's how we learned to harmonize, and
you know, walk in through the streets of Harlem.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
I think what we also got from this was that
he was just a genuinely kind person.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Oh crazy, very generous.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, just it seemed like he just and it also
made me feel like a lot of times artists are
not humanized in that way.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
People.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
We saw a million people asking him about his weight,
you know, when he would lose weight gain the weight,
and I'm sure that was so hard for him and
it was not something that he wanted to always have
to address and have to discuss. It was at the
point where at one point he didn't even want to
go on tour.
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Well, yeah, yeah, it was it was you know, I
think watching the footage now of how people treated him
in those interviews, you would never treat.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
A guest like that. You would never people would literally say,
how much did you lose? Are you going to keep
it off?
Speaker 8 (17:15):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (17:15):
You gained it all back? I mean just we could
have done half an hour.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
Yeah, just people asking these really probing, you know, questions
that were really insensitive to him, and it was it
was kind of actually stunning, you know, to kind of
look at them that way and to think what did
it feel like to be on the other side of
this like constant you know, pressure about his appearance.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
These were like top noch journalists right right, like really
it became a talking point for any time he would perform,
I mean to come on, and so it's like the
music really got lost in like what he looked like.
Speaker 6 (17:50):
You know what you used if Richard Marx was was
so poignant because Richard said, you mean, so all of
this magnificent music that this man has done and you're
reducing it to a SoundBite.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
About it his way.
Speaker 7 (18:00):
How disrespectful is that? First of all, you know what,
you know, we were all part of that.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
I mean, we all read Jet Magazine. It was like
big Luthor, Little Luthor.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
We heard the community, the comedians.
Speaker 8 (18:13):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
But it's funny because when that part, you know, we've
watched it with a million audiences now and you know,
in the beginning, obviously when Eddie does his thing, everybody's
like laughing and it's like, you know, talking about the KFC,
which is funny.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
But then you know, by the time it gets.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
To Cedric, the audience is pretty quiet because I think
they're uncomfortable at this point, you know, and with us
having to you know, throw the point in your face
like this is a human being, you know, and no
shape to Cedric or whatever. But you know, it just
it kind of shows highlights how we've humanized him at
that point.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
They were certain points, like even when him and Oprah
having that conversation, because I thought like she could relate
to that, you know, so she was.
Speaker 5 (18:51):
On the Oprah Show like more than ten times. They
were really friends.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
She really did.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
Catalog his life, and I think that they experienced that,
you know, they had that experience, both of them in public,
losing and gaining, and so they could he could she
could really understand what it was like to be a
public person and everybody's wondering.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
What what do you wait today?
Speaker 5 (19:13):
And you know, look, how old is Oprah now she's
over seventy We are still talking.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
About her way right right? Well, she did was part
of Weight Watchers too, Yeah, and she was like.
Speaker 7 (19:29):
They keep saying Oprah's doing this coffee.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I don't know, how would I know, you know, who
else was in this David Bowie.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I always find him fascinating because of I feel like
he was very forward thinking and I always hear great
stories about him.
Speaker 6 (19:45):
Yeah, he always looked like a He looked like somebody
from outer space. There was there was an album that
now produced called Black Tie, White Noise that I sang on,
And we did some appearances with Bowie on on our
Sinio Hall and on g Leto, And it's just amazing
(20:06):
to be around him and say, this guy is like
his thing is just completely different. It wasn't even it
wasn't a black thing it was, but he just had
something that was so different and just so And for
him to realize the importance of having Luther come in
and sing on that record and shaz it.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
And he did not invite Luther was twenty four and
he just was with his friends Robin and Carlos. You know,
we hear so often and it's too often the case.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
Of white artists appropriating black music, not giving credit, not
pushing people forward, and Bowie did the opposite.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yes, you know, he pushed Luthor forward. First he invites
them to sing in the session.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
Then he ends up arranging Raither arranges Bowie's first American album,
as Phonsie says in the movie, totally different sound. Then
he takes him on tour and has him open. Luke,
can you imagine Luther van drass is opening for David Bowie?
I mean, and you know, it's such a magnificent thing.
But you know, I've seen other clips of Bowie and
(21:07):
we really do need to give him his due. He pushed, MTV,
why do you have black artists?
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah? I remember that they were not and they were like, oh,
our audience doesn't.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
He was consistent, and he was was you know, he
was living it, not just saying it, and that's rare,
and uh, you know, Luther may not have had.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
The career he had without that first, you know.
Speaker 6 (21:29):
And it was it was such a back door experience
in terms of how likely would it be for Luther
Van Rossley and Buddy R and d s Finger singer,
you know, winding up with David Bowie and David doing
all this, And like you said, MTV opened its doors.
Next thing, we saw Whitney singing how Will I Know?
And you Give Good Love? And seeing Michael Jackson and
(21:51):
all of this stuff that everybody, the entire culture has
grown because of what was shown on MTV from Black Artists,
You right, David Bowie and Wow.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Like what is MTV.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Music Videos?
Speaker 3 (22:05):
I think it's really important for us to put that
whole Philadelphia moment because the fact is David Bowie went
to Philadelphia trying to form that gamble and huff sound,
you know, and and that's why he was there, and
that's not a story like depending on who tells the story,
everybody doesn't know that, you know.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
So it was important for us the musical.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Background, and we have that great moment, which is one
of our favorite scenes with all the artists that came
out of there.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
There's a whole David Bowie documentary that does not mention
Luther Vandros really like, how is that possible?
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Right, Leah? Did you learn anything new? Leah? As a super.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I didn't know a lot about the Bowie stuff, honestly,
and that was new also time wise, I don't think
I realized, you know, how much he had been working
before he actually blew up.
Speaker 5 (22:54):
You know.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
It's like nowadays everything's like instant graduate gratification with social media.
If you're not living in a penthouse at twenty five,
like you know, not really, but but you know, he
was like thirty when Never too Much took off.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
I mean that's something that.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Got him signed.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, Sesame Street, the commercial jingles, singing for other bands
and singing background or.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Really major artists.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
But it really took him, you know, taking a chance
on himself and not really giving up on his dreams.
He had such tenacity, you know, he didn't he wasn't
going to be deterred. And I think that to me
was like inspirational. So it's like, not necessarily I didn't
know that, but it's just like seeing that, I'm.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Like, wow, And to know all those labels passed, Yeah,
that's right, that's right, that's right, you know, and Never
too Much.
Speaker 6 (23:39):
And in fact, Epic and Columbia, who he went around
to twice, both passed on him. It wasn't until Lark
and Arnold became CEO at Epic that Luther went back
and presented Sugar and Spice and houses not at Home
and Never too Much, and Larkin said, okay, let's And
it's interesting because Luther thought that Sugar and Spice was
(24:02):
the first single. He said, oh, look and this is
the first single. He said, no, no, no, that Never
too Much, that's the one, so.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
And he was right, and it's the name of the movie,
Who Couldn't Pass On Here and Home? It's wild, right.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
But one of the things you guys talked about also
is that he didn't have the look well that people
felt like at the time. He does and that's he's
black and he's big. It's a certain type of look exactly.
And you know what, we came up during a time
when you know, watching the Supremes and watching the Temptations,
and watching the Four Times and seeing Aretha and Dion
(24:38):
all of them, when when we deal with the crossover issue,
all of those people crossed over, all of the Motown
artists had number one records and crossed over. So us
as singers trying to get in the business, thought that
the kick you make a record and at some point
you have a number one record and you'll be at
the top of the charts.
Speaker 6 (24:52):
But I've said before if you if you look at it,
Garth Brooks can have the number one country album but
also the number one pop album. How Come Luther Vandross
can have the number one R and B album and
the number one pop album. So what you said is
it had a lot to do with the image or
just really the the racial thing. You all are keeping
him from what this man is supposed to be getting.
(25:14):
He's created an entire body of music, so you all
are keeping him from this, and that was That's one
of the things that the film highlights so well.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
And seeing some of these artists, like look at Nile
still is doing music for like a Beyonce, Forrell.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Who do you like now that you're like, Okay, maybe
I should add my touch to.
Speaker 7 (25:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like Beyonce.
Speaker 6 (25:35):
I think I think she's really good. She's like one
of our trail blazers at this time. You know, you'll
been trying to, you know, go back and forth about
her country album Give the Girl you know her do
they were country artists.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
I love her country album too.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
It's ain't Texas.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Everybody's having cowboy cardithen parties. I just was at one
in Memphis.
Speaker 6 (25:54):
You know, country music is so based on gospel and
the blues and all of our and all of our influences.
So why wouldn't Beyonce, who's one of the top stars,
do an album of different music, you know, and show
everybody this is a different approach, you know, I think.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
It does say so much though, that Beyonce.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
Woman in music has to, you know, explain what she
wants to stretch and grow creatively.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
She's one of the most creative human beings.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
But even really why when she went to the Country
Music Awards and they were disrespectful to her, it was like, okay,
a few years later, let me come back and drat
this album on, you know, and.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
Doesn't give up. And you know what, she's not messy
in public she answers.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
With but I know behind the scenes she'd be like Blue.
Speaker 6 (26:44):
But she but she also seems to feel that. She
seems like she's not afraid to try the next thing
for her And that's what I That's what I really like.
I think we need more of that.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
We might need a fancy documentary too, I want.
Speaker 8 (26:54):
To, but we deeply want a funny story.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
I call him a vampire because it's like never ag
that's the same.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Also evokes this like wow, you know, well, I'm must
tell you my name is Alfonso.
Speaker 6 (27:23):
And the thing is, when I was an infant, my
mother started calling me Phonsie, and so, of course, years
later Henry Winkler came to teach the fun somebody called
me up to say, somebody's got your name, man, I said,
you mean somebody him?
Speaker 7 (27:35):
So again.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
But we set the trends, baby.
Speaker 6 (27:39):
You know when we when we were making this film,
I have not talked at all about my career, talked
about anything. This has been the whole focus of this
documentary is celebrating Luther's legacy and just illuminating black genius
and also illuminating black history and the history of R
and B and the thing is, and that's been the
focus from the beginning. Like I said, the day that
(28:00):
these ladies walked into the room, it was clear, Okay,
I understand who they are, just as intelligent people. Because
he was a very intelligent person. And we wanted to
do a documentary of a certain caliber, with a certain standard,
and that's what I think we accomplished.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Now, I do want to ask about this because there
was some controversy over the Patti LaBelle part and they
said that she was not pleased with that, like that
she outed him.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
What did you guys think about that?
Speaker 5 (28:25):
In including that, you know, it's I think it's always
like people looking for, you know, controversy. So I always
felt like when I watched that clip about Patty. I
always felt like she had no ill intent. She did
love Luther, there was, you know, and so we asked her,
(28:47):
We wanted her to explain what happened, and we couldn't
quite get that across the finish line. And so I'm
sorry that she didn't get a chance to explain because
I know what deep love she had for him.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
So, you know, in the end, I think people say
what they say.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
I think most people can understand that, you know, when
you watch the clip and how it came out, that
there was no ill intent.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I mean, the whole movie's a celebration, so I can't
see why anything would be in there that wasn't intended
to be of it.
Speaker 5 (29:19):
It's unfortunately part of his story that there was this
never ending question about his sexuality, and so that, you know,
what she said at that time is part of that story.
But you know, I think I think the overall the
whole idea is does he actually get the right to
(29:40):
say what he wants about himself in person himself? And so,
you know, we definitely cut that scene so many times
and asked Phonsie for advice and the you know family
for advice, and ultimately it was something Phonsie said that
really became the guiding north star, which is I'm gonna
let him have the last an sir. And we had
(30:01):
many examples of him talking about how he wanted to
keep himself private and ultimately, especially when somebody has passed.
You know, I wish to goodness gracious for so many
reasons that he was here, but one is like, wouldn't
it be wonderful to see Luther, to have Luther here
seeing so many people, you know, living in the world
(30:22):
that we.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Live in now, which is to some degree so much
more open.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
Right.
Speaker 6 (30:27):
You know, I don't really want to talk about that specifically,
but what I want to say about it in a
long and a bigger way is that, you know, we
were raised in a different era, you know, where privacy
and trust and respect where the bottom lines. You know,
my mother always said, what goes on in this house
stays in this house. And the thing is everything is
(30:49):
not no matter what you think you know, no matter
what you've heard, everything is not everybody's business. So why
am I, as a fully grown man who's been in
the industry and contributed all of this stuff, Why am.
Speaker 7 (31:01):
I explaining my personal life?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Right?
Speaker 7 (31:03):
It's really none of your business.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Diane Warwick said to me.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
I asked her, you know, if she wanted to talk
about this, and she looked at me and she says,
do you know what noneya means?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Business?
Speaker 8 (31:16):
Next question?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
You know? And I do want to say, though, because
part of the theme of this movie is him looking
for and never being completely happy, you know, And and
I'm sure there were a lot of different reasons for that.
So I do feel like it all kind of ties
in together, of like you said, if he was here today,
to see him being celebrated the way that he is,
but also to see how people it is a different era,
(31:38):
you know, back then and listen, privacy you could forget it. Yeah, nowadays,
let you walk outside, can't take a picture of you there?
Already took it exactly.
Speaker 7 (31:46):
Yeah, he took it while you were laying in bed.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
I saw somebody like filming an NBA player on the
plane trying to put his bag up like in the
overhead and having a difficult time and make it into
like a viral clip of like he just put his back,
you know.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
And it's crazy that you can't do anything.
Speaker 6 (32:03):
And the one thing, too, is that this film is
a celebration of friendship. You know all of us who
you know, four of us grew up together, Me, Carlos,
Robin and Luther. We all got into the business together.
We all have careers that have been flourishing. We've done
really well. So it's what I'm most proud about this
film is everybody gets a chance to see he had
people that had his back.
Speaker 7 (32:22):
You know what I'm saying. We were not people just
loitering in the wings. We had his back, something like myself.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
Some other people worked on all the records and did
all of the you know, did all the creating and
stuff like that. But you know, he was a genius
of a person and he was you know, he loved
his family, He looked out for his friends. He helped
some people put their kids through college, He helped some
people buy their homes and stuff like that. So while people,
you know, you need to know there was so much
(32:48):
more to this man than whether or not he had
this great voice. He was really and again, this is
a man who grew up in the southeast Bronx on
Dawson Street.
Speaker 7 (32:55):
The building's not even there anymore.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Bronx has changed a lot. Well, listen, everybody needs so
how can people see this? I know it's in theatres
AMC Theatre is limited right now, but then you also
can see it streaming on.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Max, on Max and on Own, Oprah WINF Network.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Okay, and I think it's.
Speaker 8 (33:12):
Premiering on Own tomorrow tomorrow, Yeah, yeah, just me.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
It wasn't on there yet because the Max stream and
I don't think it starts with the eighth What's today?
Speaker 4 (33:23):
Yeah, so you know, by the time our people get
around to it, I feel like this.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Is leading into a biopic.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Though you guys told this story so beautifully it kind
of would make it a natural.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Thing, you know.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
We Jamie Fox is a producer on it.
Speaker 5 (33:37):
When I saw him in there to Datari Turner, they
were fantastic to work with.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
So who knows.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
I went to go see that Broadway play What a
Wonderful World About Lewis Armstrong.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
You know, wait to see that.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah, at least February twenty theirst, So make sure you
get over there to go see that. But just seeing
these stories.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Told about these icons that we have because like you said,
during that time and we didn't know, you know, a
lot of this, just to see it put together so
beautifully and with such great intention. I think it's a blessing.
So thank you so much for amazing work that you
guys did.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
Thank you for having us. It's so fun to be
here with you. An happy anniversary to you. Congrats relations.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
No better way to celebrate. She was like, you're not
going to have one because you feel guilty. If you're
the only one that haserve one, it's way up
What's up its way up at Angela.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Gee, and this is really exciting for me because you know,
this is my genre, my type of music. Today we're
going to be talking about Luther Never too much. This
documentary that was Don Porter, you directed this, right, and
Fanzie Thornton. You were a close friend of Luther vangos
Is from the age of fourteen and also did music
with him. And then Leah and Smith over at CNN
(00:24):
a producer.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Or No, I'm actually not a CNN anymore.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Okay, I was with CNN for many years, but no,
I've been working with Don on a couple of projects.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
So I was I was a producer on this project.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Okay, because you've done a lot of other documentaries over there,
and this is a CNN documentary, Yes it is.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
But we actually created this before okay bought it. Yeah, Okay,
that's great. I love that.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I was trying to I know it's in theaters, right,
and then I was like, how do we watch this
on streaming?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
So it was like, you got to get the Hulu
Plus and.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Then I went it's in a lot of places. Yeah,
it's just.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
On own okay and Max streaming.
Speaker 5 (01:04):
It's in theaters until the ninth of February and select
AMC theaters.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Okay, all right, perfect, it feels like a concert. So
I fortunately was able to watch it. And when I
tell you, my friends and I we were all in
here singing along because Luthor is like, first of all,
we don't have to say Luther Vanjos, It's just Luthor.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
It's one of those one word people.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
You know, it's a Kendrick and siss a song right now.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Have fitting that it is great super Bowl Sunday, like
we're waiting, you know, it.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Has to.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
What did you think when you heard that song? Because
that's my favorite song on the album, the Luther song, just.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
You know, just loving hearing his voice in Cheryl Lynn's
voice in there, and the fact that they're being brought
to this generation.
Speaker 7 (01:51):
A lot of people don't know this music.
Speaker 6 (01:53):
So to really just hear Luther's voice and Cheryl's voice
in there, and the fact that they got that, you know,
it's just.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
You know, Hendrick is the songwriter and poet really of
our time. To have him honor Luther's songwriting this way,
you know, he is reflecting what we learned in making
this film and what Phonsie already knew, you know.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Which is Luthor was the goat.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Fanzie talked to us about young Luther and a young Phonzie.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
And your dreams and aspirations at that age.
Speaker 6 (02:25):
Well, that's what's the wonderful part about this story. I
met Luther. His sister, a girl that I went to
church with, who I got to say her name because
always says, you'd never say my name. Her name is
Deanie Spencer, and she was in high school with Luther.
And she's always tell me and she and I used
to sing in church together. And she's always saying, there's
this guy that goes to taff High School with me
(02:46):
named Luther. He's a singer, he's a songwriter, he's got
a group. You need to know him. I saying, why,
She says, just something, there's some way you would click.
So she gave him my phone number. He called me.
His sister lived across the street from me in the projects,
and I went over and joined his group, the Shades
of Jade, a young and it's funny.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I love how she.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Was like, he's a singer, so he was sixteen singer songwriter.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
People was little adults, Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, what
you can.
Speaker 7 (03:15):
Do He was always assembling people. He was.
Speaker 6 (03:18):
He was like assembling singers and assembling musicians, and most
of us wound up being on ninety five percent of
his recordings. I have someone like ninety five percent of
the records, and I was always the vocal contractor. He
would call me and say, FONZI called the singers were
doing a new album. But anyway, a young Luther was
somebody who had vision. He was somebody that, you know,
(03:39):
knew what he liked.
Speaker 7 (03:40):
You know.
Speaker 6 (03:40):
There's a portion in the film where he says, you
got to get the shoes if you're going to.
Speaker 7 (03:43):
Be in the group.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
It was a very fancy was thirty two dollars.
Speaker 6 (03:51):
My mother ain't giving me no twenty three dollars to
buy no shoes to be in no group, you know.
Speaker 7 (03:55):
And that's what it was. But he was. He was
a brilliant person.
Speaker 6 (03:57):
He was the first vocal arranger and songwriter that I'd
ever met, you know, and Luther. I often say that
Luther found the hole in the fence. He had assembled
a few of his friends who were singers, myself, Robin Clark,
Diane Summer, and we sang all around Harlem. We would
listening to my brother. You know, we did amateur nights
sometimes and he was at the apologis. But he was
(04:23):
extremely intuitive. He's the funniest person you ever want to know.
But when it was time to get down to the music,
he was serious. Even at fifteen years old. You know,
he knew what he was doing.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
These kids today, I don't know, it's a different type
of feel. Yeah, yeah, you know, Don and Leah. For
you guys putting this together and seeing all this old footage,
I imagine you had a ton of old footage. It
had to be really hard to figure out what are
we keeping and what are we taking out?
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Because it was really fun.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
To watch just to see like the actual footage and
the interviews and the performances. To see Mariah Harry on stage.
Yeah yeah, you know singing Less Love with Luthor. I mean,
that was a phenomenal moment that I had never, you know,
seen before. So what was that like going through that
footage and figuring out what are we keeping?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
What do we have to cut?
Speaker 4 (05:14):
It was It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
I mean, you know, the benefit to working with Sony
Music and Publishing and to working with the estate is
we had a lot to go through, so you know,
Leah is a Luther super fan, so she was always,
you know, keeping us honest about what to.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Keep in because the hardest thing for this.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
Movie is is what you just asked is what to
keep what to put in? Everybody has their favorite Luther song.
My mother was like, I know you're going to put
this in.
Speaker 8 (05:42):
You know.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
Our composer is Robert Glasper and he's like, I know
you're going to put this in. And we didn't have
his favorite song to this and he was like where
So we didn't have so amazing and we were like,
you know what.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
A big moment.
Speaker 5 (05:59):
But you know, the thing that struck me and going
through the interviews and hearing the songs is how many
of them were so spectacular. There are so few artists
who like every song's about right, and that's Luthor. So
you know, I know, you know Leah going through Leah
was so stressed because we couldn't find change, We couldn't
(06:21):
find a place.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
To put his early music. And she was one hundred
percent right.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
She would be like, you know, I'd come in and
she'd be like, I'm still looking for this change footage.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
It was important because I felt like that is for
my generation. You know, I feel like that was one
of the first times we remember hearing him with searching and.
Speaker 8 (06:40):
Glow of love.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
I mean, even now you go out and those those
songs are so popular, you know, So we really wanted
to highlight that moment, and we found that wonderful bite
from Phonsie where he talked about a coupled with some
archival that Luther had, and we were just lucky to
also have some really great interviews from from Luthor himself,
you know, Dawn from that at she said, you know,
he wanted it, she wanted it to be told in
(07:02):
his voice, and so we made a point of doing that.
But I mean, listen, I've had worse jobs than watching
Luthor performances, and like I mean, I would think of
like Superstar, like we had so many he would do
that like almost every night, like long thirteen minutes, fourteen minutes,
you know. And I remember we were talking to our
wonderful editor Mark and one of them I was like,
(07:24):
this isn't the right version. So we pull this out
of like this one, this one is better, you know,
like stuff like that, to really make it, you know,
to honor him in the way that you know, we
thought he should be honored.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
And it's called never too much? Why did you pick
that song at it? Because that had to also be
hard to figure out which title are we giving it.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Or was it instant?
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Like you know, it was kind of you can really
never get too much of him, I mean. And you know,
one of the things that was so delightful to remember
and discover is the Luther was everywhere.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
He was singing those jingles. You know, there were some phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Black talent Sesame Street Street.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Like Valerie Simpson. They were singing jingles. They were singing commercials.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
And money doing it, Welcome.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
To Miller Time and juicy fruit gum, things like We're.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Man those commercial has been nice and too I don't
bring her thirst right here.
Speaker 8 (08:22):
That's the lyrics that we always it.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Was a nice Geno's I want some Geno's pizza.
Speaker 7 (08:28):
Right Remember McDuffie came to the.
Speaker 6 (08:31):
Introduced her from the audience and said, y'all got to know,
this is part of the reason that Luther was in jingles.
This woman was was the primary black woman jingle producer
at that point, and she used to call him, she
used to call me. You know, just a lot of
us to come in and sing, and it's just yeah,
you know, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
She was great, and you know James Ingram Flag you know,
and Nick bal Yeah exactly, and everybody kind of went
through because now.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
We call them friends.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I went to my college, so when I was registering,
they were there and they're all white because she was
my year, and my mom was like, she embarrassed me.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
She was like, I just want to say I love
your guys music.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It was solid, solid musics. Wrong now, Phonzie, how did
you feel when you flashed back and saw all this
old footage and interviews and performances that I'm sure it's
been a while since you even.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
Well, you know what to tell you the truth, there
were many years that I had footage and audio in
the back room of my apartment. What happened is after
Luther passed away, at one point his mother asked me,
would you go over to the storage space with the
family so we can look through, you know, what's in there.
And the thing is, she said, I would love to
be the custodian of his of his archives, you know,
(09:50):
meaning you know, his videos and his audios. So I
just gathered everything up and took it home and had
it in my back room for like maybe fourteen years
while we went out and tried to find the right
people to help us do this film. A lot of
people were absolutely the wrong people. And then these two
ladies walked into the door with a meeting with the
estate and it was like instance team. It's like that's them,
(10:14):
you know, so so but but but looking at the
footage and looking to you know, Luther and I were
really best friends.
Speaker 7 (10:19):
Every day.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
We really spoke every day, you know what I'm saying.
And the thing is he we learned a lot from
each other. So watching the footage and just watching everything,
I was sort of already there, you know, because watching
the footage gave me a chance to hear him, gave
me a chance to see him.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
And as it is a definite story of your life.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
You know, you meet when you're you're teenagers, and then
you were with him the.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Day he died.
Speaker 7 (10:42):
Absolutely, Like what a friendship?
Speaker 6 (10:45):
You know, absolutely, And I don't think everybody's ever had
a best friend. They don't know what it's like to
have a brother from another mother. They don't really know
what that is.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
I was going to say, that's a rarity to be
friends and work together and not fall out for so
long because we hear so many stories like who you
start off with a lot of times is that who
you end up with.
Speaker 6 (11:03):
It's absolute true. And he was amazing because, like I said,
I was the vocal contractor. So he would say, fans,
we were doing a new record, he said, first person
you need to call is Sissy Houston, because because Whitney's mother,
Sissy Houston, sang on every single record that Luther ever
did for exactly, So he would always say, you know,
(11:24):
call to Watha, call Sissy, called Paul Atte, call Michelle,
and you'll come in and let's do these records. And
so it was always the same people he was. He
assembled people from the beginning, and we were people that
sort of hung with him the whole time doing the recordings.
And then he had his his stage group, which was
Kevin Owens, Lisa Fisher and Aba Cherry, you know what
I'm saying. So the man was so astute musically, and
(11:46):
he had his own vision, he had his own taste
about what he liked and what he didn't like, and
like I said, he found the whole. He was a
boss from the beginning, and he found the hole in
the fence and we walked through it with him, and.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
He knew early on, I'm not just singing these lyrics
as somebody else right, absolutely need to create.
Speaker 7 (12:03):
Well that was that.
Speaker 6 (12:04):
That was that part about Change because he had done
his lead singing voice became more prominent as Luther Vandross
when he was doing Change. And the thing is they
wanted him to officially be the lead singer of the group.
He said, I'm a writer and a producer. I got
my own thing that I need to say, and that's uh,
that's the story.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
And that group was created by producers to basically imitate Chic.
That's so it was like they were like, well, who
can we grab from Chic and you know, have him
and He's like, no, I want.
Speaker 6 (12:32):
To do my and our tag team was was always this.
So Luther sang on the early Chic records and I
sang on the second.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yesaw both of you members.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
You know, So seeing him on there, because I know
his story you know so well too, feels like some
fun times seventies.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
That did.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
I mean even that era of like disco and everybody
was you know, and a lot of people didn't make.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
It out of that era.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Musically the way that they would have liked to. But
y'all continued to evolve and thrive even after that.
Speaker 6 (13:13):
Well, there was also a quality that was that came
across because disco was wonderful. We all danced in the clubs,
We sang on a lot of those records through the years.
But there was a certain quality that came from chic
And then when Luther stuffed up and did Change, there
was a certain quality of what he was doing that
that lead vocal nobody had ever when they first started
playing the Change records, people said, who is that person?
(13:33):
You know what I'm saying, And that's what walked him
into his deal. He said he had saved all the
money he had made from ROBERTA. Flack and his sessions
and stuff like that and put it into creating his
his demos, which got him his deal at Epic Records,
and that's how it became.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
You know, I think a lot of people don't realize
that history, don't realize that Luther Vandross is on every
shekh absolutely. So that's why we wanted to highlight that
because I think that that that's a story that's not
always told, is how and one thing I'd love.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
About I feel like I know Luther. He's passed before.
Speaker 5 (14:07):
You know, but we watched so many interviews and watched
him like you know, we we know his mannerisms. But
you know, seeing how these artists helped each other, you know,
that is not always a story that we hear. So
when Nile Rogers in the film says like we sang
on my album, then we would go, you know, across
town and sing. And then you know, Phonsie's being honest,
(14:27):
but he's on all the all the chic albums.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
He's you know, roxy music.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
Like there's a lot of performers, Yeah, we don't know,
you know who all is bringing that fullness and those skills.
And that is part of Luther's story, you know, is
that generosity and that.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Is the real creativity. These people were not just mixing.
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
It wasn't like we were in the studio.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
It was in the studio.
Speaker 5 (15:01):
And that I think that resonates and comes through when
you ask, you know, when a person thinks about like
why is this music timeless?
Speaker 4 (15:09):
I think you're hearing that artistry.
Speaker 6 (15:12):
Absolutely actually, and you just said something that is so
important is he was so artistically generous This was a
man who every night that he did his show, Lisa
Fisher sang how can I Use the Pain? He was
the one that helped Lisa get her deal at Electra Records,
which and how Can I Ease the Pain became a
Grammy winning record, and Luther used to let her sing
(15:32):
it every night on stage. To Wata Age who sings
Juicy Food by m Tomate, he would let Tawatha come
on and sing Juicy Food every night. Kevin Owens would
sing every night. If you were doing an album, like
when I was doing my albums in the eighties, he
came in, he sang background, he arranged you.
Speaker 7 (15:47):
He was the guy type of person.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Did you, boss, Luther? Did you tell me.
Speaker 8 (15:53):
Pretty much?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Could you just could you?
Speaker 6 (15:57):
Could you just bend a little bit more? He was
always so on point. He was so musically astute that
anybody that ever worked with him, whether a singer or
a musician, got to be better because of the stuff
that he knew. You know, we used to walk around
Harlem with his favorite vocal groups group was the Sweet Inspirations,
which was once again Sissy Houston's group, and the things
(16:20):
we used to walk around Harlem with him giving our parts. Fonzie,
you sing this, Robin, you sing that, Diane, you sing that,
and you know that's how we learned to harmonize, and
you know, walk in through the streets of Harlem.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
I think what we also got from this was that
he was just a genuinely kind person.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Oh crazy, very generous.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, just it seemed like he just and it also
made me feel like a lot of times artists are
not humanized in that way.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
People.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
We saw a million people asking him about his weight,
you know, when he would lose weight gain the weight,
and I'm sure that was so hard for him and
it was not something that he wanted to always have
to address and have to discuss. It was at the
point where at one point he didn't even want to
go on tour.
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Well, yeah, yeah, it was it was you know, I
think watching the footage now of how people treated him
in those interviews, you would never treat.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
A guest like that. You would never people would literally say,
how much did you lose? Are you going to keep
it off?
Speaker 8 (17:15):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (17:15):
You gained it all back? I mean just we could
have done half an hour.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
Yeah, just people asking these really probing, you know, questions
that were really insensitive to him, and it was it
was kind of actually stunning, you know, to kind of
look at them that way and to think what did
it feel like to be on the other side of
this like constant you know, pressure about his appearance.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
These were like top noch journalists right right, like really
it became a talking point for any time he would perform,
I mean to come on, and so it's like the
music really got lost in like what he looked like.
Speaker 6 (17:50):
You know what you used if Richard Marx was was
so poignant because Richard said, you mean, so all of
this magnificent music that this man has done and you're
reducing it to a SoundBite.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
About it his way.
Speaker 7 (18:00):
How disrespectful is that? First of all, you know what,
you know, we were all part of that.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
I mean, we all read Jet Magazine. It was like
big Luthor, Little Luthor.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
We heard the community, the comedians.
Speaker 8 (18:13):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
But it's funny because when that part, you know, we've
watched it with a million audiences now and you know,
in the beginning, obviously when Eddie does his thing, everybody's
like laughing and it's like, you know, talking about the KFC,
which is funny.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
But then you know, by the time it gets.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
To Cedric, the audience is pretty quiet because I think
they're uncomfortable at this point, you know, and with us
having to you know, throw the point in your face
like this is a human being, you know, and no
shape to Cedric or whatever. But you know, it just
it kind of shows highlights how we've humanized him at
that point.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
They were certain points, like even when him and Oprah
having that conversation, because I thought like she could relate
to that, you know, so she was.
Speaker 5 (18:51):
On the Oprah Show like more than ten times. They
were really friends.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
She really did.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
Catalog his life, and I think that they experienced that,
you know, they had that experience, both of them in public,
losing and gaining, and so they could he could she
could really understand what it was like to be a
public person and everybody's wondering.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
What what do you wait today?
Speaker 5 (19:13):
And you know, look, how old is Oprah now she's
over seventy We are still talking.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
About her way right right? Well, she did was part
of Weight Watchers too, Yeah, and she was like.
Speaker 7 (19:29):
They keep saying Oprah's doing this coffee.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I don't know, how would I know, you know, who
else was in this David Bowie.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I always find him fascinating because of I feel like
he was very forward thinking and I always hear great
stories about him.
Speaker 6 (19:45):
Yeah, he always looked like a He looked like somebody
from outer space. There was there was an album that
now produced called Black Tie, White Noise that I sang on,
And we did some appearances with Bowie on on our
Sinio Hall and on g Leto, And it's just amazing
(20:06):
to be around him and say, this guy is like
his thing is just completely different. It wasn't even it
wasn't a black thing it was, but he just had
something that was so different and just so And for
him to realize the importance of having Luther come in
and sing on that record and shaz it.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
And he did not invite Luther was twenty four and
he just was with his friends Robin and Carlos. You know,
we hear so often and it's too often the case.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
Of white artists appropriating black music, not giving credit, not
pushing people forward, and Bowie did the opposite.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yes, you know, he pushed Luthor forward. First he invites
them to sing in the session.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
Then he ends up arranging Raither arranges Bowie's first American album,
as Phonsie says in the movie, totally different sound. Then
he takes him on tour and has him open. Luke,
can you imagine Luther van drass is opening for David Bowie?
I mean, and you know, it's such a magnificent thing.
But you know, I've seen other clips of Bowie and
(21:07):
we really do need to give him his due. He pushed, MTV,
why do you have black artists?
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah? I remember that they were not and they were like, oh,
our audience doesn't.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
He was consistent, and he was was you know, he
was living it, not just saying it, and that's rare,
and uh, you know, Luther may not have had.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
The career he had without that first, you know.
Speaker 6 (21:29):
And it was it was such a back door experience
in terms of how likely would it be for Luther
Van Rossley and Buddy R and d s Finger singer,
you know, winding up with David Bowie and David doing
all this, And like you said, MTV opened its doors.
Next thing, we saw Whitney singing how Will I Know?
And you Give Good Love? And seeing Michael Jackson and
(21:51):
all of this stuff that everybody, the entire culture has
grown because of what was shown on MTV from Black Artists,
You right, David Bowie and Wow.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Like what is MTV.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Music Videos?
Speaker 3 (22:05):
I think it's really important for us to put that
whole Philadelphia moment because the fact is David Bowie went
to Philadelphia trying to form that gamble and huff sound,
you know, and and that's why he was there, and
that's not a story like depending on who tells the story,
everybody doesn't know that, you know.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
So it was important for us the musical.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Background, and we have that great moment, which is one
of our favorite scenes with all the artists that came
out of there.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
There's a whole David Bowie documentary that does not mention
Luther Vandros really like, how is that possible?
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Right, Leah? Did you learn anything new? Leah? As a super.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I didn't know a lot about the Bowie stuff, honestly,
and that was new also time wise, I don't think
I realized, you know, how much he had been working
before he actually blew up.
Speaker 5 (22:54):
You know.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
It's like nowadays everything's like instant graduate gratification with social media.
If you're not living in a penthouse at twenty five,
like you know, not really, but but you know, he
was like thirty when Never too Much took off.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
I mean that's something that.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Got him signed.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, Sesame Street, the commercial jingles, singing for other bands
and singing background or.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Really major artists.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
But it really took him, you know, taking a chance
on himself and not really giving up on his dreams.
He had such tenacity, you know, he didn't he wasn't
going to be deterred. And I think that to me
was like inspirational. So it's like, not necessarily I didn't
know that, but it's just like seeing that, I'm.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Like, wow, And to know all those labels passed, Yeah,
that's right, that's right, that's right, you know, and Never
too Much.
Speaker 6 (23:39):
And in fact, Epic and Columbia, who he went around
to twice, both passed on him. It wasn't until Lark
and Arnold became CEO at Epic that Luther went back
and presented Sugar and Spice and houses not at Home
and Never too Much, and Larkin said, okay, let's And
it's interesting because Luther thought that Sugar and Spice was
(24:02):
the first single. He said, oh, look and this is
the first single. He said, no, no, no, that Never
too Much, that's the one, so.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
And he was right, and it's the name of the movie,
Who Couldn't Pass On Here and Home? It's wild, right.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
But one of the things you guys talked about also
is that he didn't have the look well that people
felt like at the time. He does and that's he's
black and he's big. It's a certain type of look exactly.
And you know what, we came up during a time
when you know, watching the Supremes and watching the Temptations,
and watching the Four Times and seeing Aretha and Dion
(24:38):
all of them, when when we deal with the crossover issue,
all of those people crossed over, all of the Motown
artists had number one records and crossed over. So us
as singers trying to get in the business, thought that
the kick you make a record and at some point
you have a number one record and you'll be at
the top of the charts.
Speaker 6 (24:52):
But I've said before if you if you look at it,
Garth Brooks can have the number one country album but
also the number one pop album. How Come Luther Vandross
can have the number one R and B album and
the number one pop album. So what you said is
it had a lot to do with the image or
just really the the racial thing. You all are keeping
him from what this man is supposed to be getting.
(25:14):
He's created an entire body of music, so you all
are keeping him from this, and that was That's one
of the things that the film highlights so well.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
And seeing some of these artists, like look at Nile
still is doing music for like a Beyonce, Forrell.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Who do you like now that you're like, Okay, maybe
I should add my touch to.
Speaker 7 (25:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like Beyonce.
Speaker 6 (25:35):
I think I think she's really good. She's like one
of our trail blazers at this time. You know, you'll
been trying to, you know, go back and forth about
her country album Give the Girl you know her do
they were country artists.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
I love her country album too.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
It's ain't Texas.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Everybody's having cowboy cardithen parties. I just was at one
in Memphis.
Speaker 6 (25:54):
You know, country music is so based on gospel and
the blues and all of our and all of our influences.
So why wouldn't Beyonce, who's one of the top stars,
do an album of different music, you know, and show
everybody this is a different approach, you know, I think.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
It does say so much though, that Beyonce.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
Woman in music has to, you know, explain what she
wants to stretch and grow creatively.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
She's one of the most creative human beings.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
But even really why when she went to the Country
Music Awards and they were disrespectful to her, it was like, okay,
a few years later, let me come back and drat
this album on, you know, and.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
Doesn't give up. And you know what, she's not messy
in public she answers.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
With but I know behind the scenes she'd be like Blue.
Speaker 6 (26:44):
But she but she also seems to feel that. She
seems like she's not afraid to try the next thing
for her And that's what I That's what I really like.
I think we need more of that.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
We might need a fancy documentary too, I want.
Speaker 8 (26:54):
To, but we deeply want a funny story.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
I call him a vampire because it's like never ag
that's the same.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Also evokes this like wow, you know, well, I'm must
tell you my name is Alfonso.
Speaker 6 (27:23):
And the thing is, when I was an infant, my
mother started calling me Phonsie, and so, of course, years
later Henry Winkler came to teach the fun somebody called
me up to say, somebody's got your name, man, I said,
you mean somebody him?
Speaker 7 (27:35):
So again.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
But we set the trends, baby.
Speaker 6 (27:39):
You know when we when we were making this film,
I have not talked at all about my career, talked
about anything. This has been the whole focus of this
documentary is celebrating Luther's legacy and just illuminating black genius
and also illuminating black history and the history of R
and B and the thing is, and that's been the
focus from the beginning. Like I said, the day that
(28:00):
these ladies walked into the room, it was clear, Okay,
I understand who they are, just as intelligent people. Because
he was a very intelligent person. And we wanted to
do a documentary of a certain caliber, with a certain standard,
and that's what I think we accomplished.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Now, I do want to ask about this because there
was some controversy over the Patti LaBelle part and they
said that she was not pleased with that, like that
she outed him.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
What did you guys think about that?
Speaker 5 (28:25):
In including that, you know, it's I think it's always
like people looking for, you know, controversy. So I always
felt like when I watched that clip about Patty. I
always felt like she had no ill intent. She did
love Luther, there was, you know, and so we asked her,
(28:47):
We wanted her to explain what happened, and we couldn't
quite get that across the finish line. And so I'm
sorry that she didn't get a chance to explain because
I know what deep love she had for him.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
So, you know, in the end, I think people say
what they say.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
I think most people can understand that, you know, when
you watch the clip and how it came out, that
there was no ill intent.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I mean, the whole movie's a celebration, so I can't
see why anything would be in there that wasn't intended
to be of it.
Speaker 5 (29:19):
It's unfortunately part of his story that there was this
never ending question about his sexuality, and so that, you know,
what she said at that time is part of that story.
But you know, I think I think the overall the
whole idea is does he actually get the right to
(29:40):
say what he wants about himself in person himself? And so,
you know, we definitely cut that scene so many times
and asked Phonsie for advice and the you know family
for advice, and ultimately it was something Phonsie said that
really became the guiding north star, which is I'm gonna
let him have the last an sir. And we had
(30:01):
many examples of him talking about how he wanted to
keep himself private and ultimately, especially when somebody has passed.
You know, I wish to goodness gracious for so many
reasons that he was here, but one is like, wouldn't
it be wonderful to see Luther, to have Luther here
seeing so many people, you know, living in the world
(30:22):
that we.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Live in now, which is to some degree so much
more open.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
Right.
Speaker 6 (30:27):
You know, I don't really want to talk about that specifically,
but what I want to say about it in a
long and a bigger way is that, you know, we
were raised in a different era, you know, where privacy
and trust and respect where the bottom lines. You know,
my mother always said, what goes on in this house
stays in this house. And the thing is everything is
(30:49):
not no matter what you think you know, no matter
what you've heard, everything is not everybody's business. So why
am I, as a fully grown man who's been in
the industry and contributed all of this stuff, Why am.
Speaker 7 (31:01):
I explaining my personal life?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Right?
Speaker 7 (31:03):
It's really none of your business.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Diane Warwick said to me.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
I asked her, you know, if she wanted to talk
about this, and she looked at me and she says,
do you know what noneya means?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Business?
Speaker 8 (31:16):
Next question?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
You know? And I do want to say, though, because
part of the theme of this movie is him looking
for and never being completely happy, you know, And and
I'm sure there were a lot of different reasons for that.
So I do feel like it all kind of ties
in together, of like you said, if he was here today,
to see him being celebrated the way that he is,
but also to see how people it is a different era,
(31:38):
you know, back then and listen, privacy you could forget it. Yeah, nowadays,
let you walk outside, can't take a picture of you there?
Already took it exactly.
Speaker 7 (31:46):
Yeah, he took it while you were laying in bed.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
I saw somebody like filming an NBA player on the
plane trying to put his bag up like in the
overhead and having a difficult time and make it into
like a viral clip of like he just put his back,
you know.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
And it's crazy that you can't do anything.
Speaker 6 (32:03):
And the one thing, too, is that this film is
a celebration of friendship. You know all of us who
you know, four of us grew up together, Me, Carlos,
Robin and Luther. We all got into the business together.
We all have careers that have been flourishing. We've done
really well. So it's what I'm most proud about this
film is everybody gets a chance to see he had
people that had his back.
Speaker 7 (32:22):
You know what I'm saying. We were not people just
loitering in the wings. We had his back, something like myself.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
Some other people worked on all the records and did
all of the you know, did all the creating and
stuff like that. But you know, he was a genius
of a person and he was you know, he loved
his family, He looked out for his friends. He helped
some people put their kids through college, He helped some
people buy their homes and stuff like that. So while people,
you know, you need to know there was so much
(32:48):
more to this man than whether or not he had
this great voice. He was really and again, this is
a man who grew up in the southeast Bronx on
Dawson Street.
Speaker 7 (32:55):
The building's not even there anymore.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Bronx has changed a lot. Well, listen, everybody needs so
how can people see this? I know it's in theatres
AMC Theatre is limited right now, but then you also
can see it streaming on.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Max, on Max and on Own, Oprah WINF Network.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Okay, and I think it's.
Speaker 8 (33:12):
Premiering on Own tomorrow tomorrow, Yeah, yeah, just me.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
It wasn't on there yet because the Max stream and
I don't think it starts with the eighth What's today?
Speaker 4 (33:23):
Yeah, so you know, by the time our people get
around to it, I feel like this.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Is leading into a biopic.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Though you guys told this story so beautifully it kind
of would make it a natural.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Thing, you know.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
We Jamie Fox is a producer on it.
Speaker 5 (33:37):
When I saw him in there to Datari Turner, they
were fantastic to work with.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
So who knows.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
I went to go see that Broadway play What a
Wonderful World About Lewis Armstrong.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
You know, wait to see that.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah, at least February twenty theirst, So make sure you
get over there to go see that. But just seeing
these stories.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Told about these icons that we have because like you said,
during that time and we didn't know, you know, a
lot of this, just to see it put together so
beautifully and with such great intention. I think it's a blessing.
So thank you so much for amazing work that you
guys did.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
Thank you for having us. It's so fun to be
here with you. An happy anniversary to you. Congrats relations.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
No better way to celebrate. She was like, you're not
going to have one because you feel guilty. If you're
the only one that haserve one, it's way up
Way Up With Angela Yee News
Host
Angela Yee
Show Links
Official WebsitePopular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.