First, Doug gives an update on his second week as Head Coach at UW Green Bay, his experience so far on the recruiting trail, and makes his Mavs/Celtics NBA Finals prediction.
Then, he’s joined by Langston University Head Coach Chris Wright to discuss the unexpected circumstances of his hiring, how he has built an HBCU powerhouse, and the unique experience of being a white HBCU head coach.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey wan to welcome in.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm Doug Gottlie.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
This is all Ball.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
We got a great all ball for you, a guy
who I have respected for years for the job that
he's done now at two locations in a Chris Wright
will be my guest. He's the head coach at Langston University. Langston,
of course is in HBCU. They also are in Naia
and what he has done with that program is truly
(00:33):
truly remarkable. Check it in to you, Check it in
with you. A week two of being Individual one men's
head basketball coach, and I'll keep sharing some of these stories,
but it's really fascinating, you know, as you get deeper
and deeper into recruiting, even during this kind of a
shortened period of time because we got the job in
the middle of May, you just kind of start to
(00:53):
figure out the landscape which most of us already knew
how it existed. And I would say that while some
would complain about agents, my dealings with the agents has
been great. They've actually been really really good in terms
of locking in on zoom times and general planning and
(01:14):
being professional and giving you a real sense of where
the kid is in decision making. The high school coaches
are still important. The junior college coaches are the or
the au coaches are still very very important in terms
of connecting with the player. I would say the one
issue which has always been an issue in college basketball
and professional basketball has been kind of the guy that's
(01:37):
the he's not the agent and he's not the coach,
and he's just kind of in the middle. And sometimes
that guy, not always, can be a bad actor and
can lead you to believe that it's one thing when
it's something else. But outside of that, I mean to
be a totally candid with you, it's still, you know,
(01:59):
a chance a play, style of play. Location plays a
little bit of factor. Hey, coach, can we win? Do
we have twenty four hour access to the gym? Apparently
this is an issue at some places, it's not where
I coach. But outside of that, it has not nearly
been everyone with their hands out the way I think
(02:20):
the world perceives it to be. But some of that
is obviously you're the What players are getting for me
is opportunity, a chance to play, and a chance to
play what I think is going to be a very
player friendly system and a boy which the ball moves.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
But we also score a lot of points.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
The point is, though, that while everyone has tried to
talk me off of this hill of coaching in college basketball,
I'm a couple of weeks in and I'm loving every
second of it. Obviously, with the NBA Finals upcoming, I'm
just going to tell you preliminarily, I think the Dallas
Mavericks is going to win. They have better im protection,
and they have a better best player who's also onechampionships before.
(03:01):
And while you know America may not value European championship
or a FOBA championship, the fact that at a young
age Luca was able to carry his team and make
big shots. And you look at close out games so
far in the playoffs and Luca is not afraid of
the big moment. Neither is Kyrie. They're not a perfect team,
but I do think that their best the matchup actually
(03:25):
favors them, whereas in other matchups it would favor the
Celtics more. Perzingis could be the X factor, right because
he can defend the ram Man stretch to the floor.
But when you haven't played in like a month a
little bit more and now you're gonna play in the
NBA Finals, that seems like a stretch, just does. So
I'm gonna take the Mavericks. We'll say Mavericks in six six.
(03:46):
All right, let's welcome in our guest. He's the head
coach of Langston University at to All Americans this year.
He's an amazing job considering you know, I've been around
Langston for twenty five years or so, and it was
a nondescript basketball program until now Here's the reason why
(04:07):
I'm fascinated, coach, by how you've built this thing. And
I'm fascinated because, you know, Langston is a place that
I know really, really well, obviously, not just my time
in Okland State, my time in Oklahoma and you know
here it is. It's like when you talk about historically
black college and universities, it's it's not one that I
(04:29):
think people mention often take me through how you how
you got the job?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
So crazy story.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
So I was at another HBCU in Alabama, Talladega College.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
So we were there for four years.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
In our last season there, you know, we make it
to the NAI National Championship and and lose there, and
our president along along the way that last year, decided
to retire and so ever after the season and Tallade
just talking about cutting our scholarships and you know, we
we had really no desire to my wife and I
(05:05):
to leave Dega and uh, you know, so man, I
throw my stuff into Langston, thinking, right, I don't know
anyone there, but let's just see kind of what happens.
And you know, even if i'm you know, kind of
you know, do get some feedback. I don't know if
it's a job that I want. And so, you know,
I send my stuff in about two am. The next morning,
I wake up with about five miss calls from from
(05:26):
the search firm they were using, and so I think
I zoomed a day later. And our president at the time,
doctor kin Smith, just really wanted to win. And so
you know, I go interview there and still not sure
if you know, if it's a job that I'm interested
in or not. I'm supposed to have dinner with him
for about an hour and a half and we end
up talking for about six hours. And you know, he
(05:47):
really made it a great job, and you know, it's
it's kind of a god thing how it worked out.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What's it like be a white coach at an HPCU.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
You know, Doug, I get asked that a lot, And uh,
I guess because it's six years now, right that we've
been in an HBCU, Like it's very second nature to me,
right like now, like you almost don't think anything of it.
But yeah, I mean I definitely think there are right
some challenges that come with that, right especially you know
(06:18):
when I was at Talladega playing in that league that
was all HBCUs. Like I probably wasn't the most well
liked guy in the league for sure.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
It's interesting though, because my dad used to tell me.
He always said, like, you know, you go you know
you're white, how you go into it, Like you you're
up in New York, You go into all black part
town and you play ball like you play the right way.
You treat people with respect, like they will just because
you came to their their town, their city, just because
you came to their gym. The love you get is
(06:49):
a real thing. And I remember I lived in Oklahoma
City on thirty sixth Street Edgemere Park and there's a
it's a boys and girls club. And since we've been redone,
they did a really nice job with it. But they
used to play like on Wednesday nights, and I just
I just started in media, and I was working at
(07:11):
the sports amble in Oklhom City and doing ESPN games,
and I went to play and I brought my wife
and the wife with me, and she had never she
grew up in drum right, like she had no problem
with like, you know, she around diversity whatever. But it
was definitely her first time when she was the only
white person in a gym. And you know, by the
(07:32):
end of the night, you know, she's got five or
six other girlfriends and wives whatever around and we're a
bunch of playing a dope ball and we just hung
out afterwards and then like we all went out and
had a drink at a bar or whatever. But it
is interesting that there'll always be some people that push back,
but overwhelmingly, and I'm sure you've experienced this, overwhelmingly, it's
just about being treated normal, you know, like there's you
(07:55):
know what I mean, And because of it, I feel
like there's there's you get a ton of kind of
love and praise.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I loved, you know, our six years being two different
HBCUs just in it. I think I really connect with
the type of guys that we have. You know, you know,
obviously we get a lot of first generation college students,
which I was one, and so I think there's a
you know, a chance to make a great impact. But
you know, it's it's funny though, like you know, even
when I was hired at Langston, I know our president
took a lot of heat for right for hiring another
(08:27):
white coach.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
And so.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
But you know, I think we started off seventeen and
know our first year, and you know, I feel really
blessed though, because I do feel like we have a
very you know, loving alumni base, you know, and for us,
it's it's it's definitely home now.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well, so what's the secret? I mean again, it's it's
one thing to take over place, nothing to take over
place immediately, make it a power. How'd you do it?
Speaker 4 (08:56):
You know, obviously gray comes down to players, right at
the end of the day, Right, you don't have good players,
I don't think it matters what you do. So, you know,
I think we get really really good players for the
n ai level. You know, last year we signed eight
guys and six of them were guys that averaged eight
or more points at the division one they were at.
And so I think that's you know, a big part
(09:16):
of it. And then I think, right like, culture is
such a buzzword, right, I almost hesitate even saying that,
But at the same time, I think our culture is
very unique, you know. I mean, you know, we try
to be extremely tough, extremely disciplined, and you know, our
guys always end up being very, very unselfish, and so
I think just the combination of having really good players
(09:37):
and then you know, having a good players and good
assistant coaches.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So okay, so you bringing eight new players, how do
you establish culture when you have that level of turn.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
So, you know, I joke with a lot of my
guys in you know, Division one now, being a small
college guy for my whole career, right like, we've kind
of always recruited, how Division one is recruit now, right Like,
it's a lot of turnover, you know, very very I've
always been very transfer heavy. But you know, I think,
you know, for us, it's just really establishing, right what
(10:10):
the expectations are for day one and then really holding
guys accountable, right whether your guy one or your guy eighteen.
I always tell them you're not going to be treated equal,
but everyone's going to be treated fair.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
And so.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
It's amazing though, how close our teams always end up
being and they really end up playing for one another.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, that's the big thing, right, Like they're not necessarily
always going to like us as coaches, right, Like, it's
not about like liking just you get true more respect.
But you need to love each other, right, that's the
that's the play for each other. Love each other, have
each other's back. That's that's I think the magic of
the secret sauce as well as having really good players. Okay,
(10:51):
but when you bring in those guys from Division one,
how do you manage their expectations? Because again this is
and I can tell you kind of at my level, right,
you have a guy transfers down, for example, they think
they could come in and be the best player on Earth,
when they don't realize that everybody else at that level
thinks the exact same thing, Right, how do you manage
(11:11):
that with all these D one guys who think, ania
I'm going to come in average twenty five points game.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
You know, Coach Shot, I really believe you know, the
way that you recruit a guy really sets the tone
for how you can coach them. And so even in
the recruiting process, you know, I try to be brutally
honest with guys, because you're right, Like I think, right,
if a Division one guy that comes down at a
level and he's averaged eight ten points of the Division
one level, he thinks he's going to walk in and
(11:38):
score twenty two a night when in reality, right, that's
probably not going to happen. And so just managing those
expectations from the jump, and you know, again I'm honest
with guys and just say, hey, look, man, we really
want you.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
I think you're a great fit for what we're trying
to do.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
But like I don't want you to think that you're
doing us a favor by coming here, because if you
don't come here, we're going to get another really really
good player, whether it's you or someone else.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
What is one thing you have to do at your
job that people would go like, he has to do? What?
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Doug? I don't know if we have long enough to
go through this list, man, but.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
I think just you know, so for us, you know,
graduating our guys is again it's extremely extremely important.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
I mean I think every coach would say that.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
But again we you know, a lot of our guys
that we get are at our level for a reason, right,
And a lot of times that typically tends to be academically,
and so I think just the amount of babysitting and
just kind of nurturing and and just walking guys to
class and being sure that every assignment that they have
is being done. And so I think just the hours
(12:50):
an hour.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
You do that yourself. As head coach, you have to
do that yourself.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
So our assistants are great, but yeah, I'm definitely definitely
part of that for sure. And so you know, in
our two years here, we graduated sixteen of sixteen guys,
So you know, I think that's probably our most impressive accomplishment.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
No question, if people only knew, like what what what
you did? What you would you did? You got an
F because you didn't turn in an assignment that was easy.
Like what all you have to do is show up?
You know, I'll never forget this is a going. So
my senior year, we had we called the group the Knuckleheads,
(13:33):
So we had a big group red shirting. Victor Williams
transferred to MI Illinois State. He was Missouri Valley Conference
freshman the year. Uh Vic obviously has his own AU
program in Kansas City. Hansom Broxy transferred and he's an
assistant with the Calves. He transferred from Minnesota Dan Lawston
god Rest. His soul was as a junior college All American.
(13:53):
He was sitting out. Who else did we had?
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Oh? We had Jason keep who as a JUCO guy
from Northern Idaho junior college. You've worked on an oil rig.
Uh Uh. So we ad Jason Keap train thingk. We
had one more and then we had Nate Flaming also
got rested, so he died in plane crash and coach
had them have a Saturday history class. It was worth
four hours, four hours every Saturday. And basically, like I
(14:21):
heard him when he brought them all in and he's like,
oh man, this is a basic level history class. You
show up and do what you're supposed to do, you'll
get a c. Put any level of h of effort in,
you should get a beat. And he's like, you work
your butt off, you can get an in. You get
you get an a, four credits, you're in a good place.
(14:41):
So and he was like, you miss any of these classes, brother,
it's gonna be bad news. It's gonna be a bad
day for all y'all. So it was every Saturday morning
was like eight to in right. So I'm gonna say
this was one of the first games of this season
my senior year, probably the third game they played Tulsa.
(15:04):
And because it was like back then it was like
Fox Sports Southwest, the game was an eleven o'clock game.
So we we don't have about like half our guys
because they're in this class. So the rest of us, we,
you know, we hooped some, we shoot some, we go
get some some to eat, like a tailgate, and we
walk in. We get in the stadium and they're already there,
all except for Nate Fleming are there and we're like,
(15:26):
what are you guys doing here? Like don't you have class? Like,
oh man, the old man will never know. And I
was like, really, okay, this one I got to see.
So Nate Fleming comes in at like ten fifty for
eleven o'clock kickoffs, Like where were you guys? He let
us go early. You guys should have come b blah
(15:46):
blah blah. So that Monday we had work. It was
like a workout on like a Monday night, six o'clock
and I had a test at like I'm gonna say five,
So I was gonna like, so I come walking in
like six ' ten and everybody else is like showered
(16:06):
walking out. I was like, what happened? Oh, they canceled practice.
They're like, but you gotta go in there and watch. Well,
I gotta watch. Just just go in there. So I
peek around the corner and Victor Williams is thrown up
in a trash can, cry and saying he's gonna call
his mom. He made him do They had to do
every one of them had to do six seventeen's consecutively
(16:28):
under a minute, and if anybody missed the time, they
had to start over. And I mean, you know, you
get about.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Not a fun day.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
You get to about thirteen or fourteen, and no one's
making that time, and no one's particularly happy, and there's
just a point of no return there. But they did it.
It was It was amazing. The point is that, like,
you know, all you had to do was show up.
That's it. Just show up, you know, just just just
show up. This is not that hard, just show up
(17:02):
the glass. But you know, they're kids, and the thought
of being a football game was too big. What is
what's your league?
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Like, you know, it is a you know, very very
well coached league. So the right Sooner Athletic Conference. They
have traditionally been one of the better INNAI conferences in
the country. I mean when you look at our league, like,
you know, mac Us won the national title, Texas Wesleyans
won a couple. Oklahoma City traditionally right one of the
(17:30):
powers of the n AI and so yeah, I mean,
you know, year one we came in and went twenty
and two in league, and I said, man, this right,
great year. I think we're going to be better next year,
but there's no way we'll go twenty and two. And
then this year we go twenty one in one and
win the league. But they have a lot of respect
for the coaches in our league. And it's just really
really good level of basketball.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
No, it's really good basketball, really really good basketball. You
mentioned the Division one transfers. It does feel like the
transfer portal, the COVID year seems to have affected your
level for a good thing as a good thing. But
again I'm an outsider. You know, like, how has over
(18:14):
the last six years, not just going through COVID COVID year.
Uh so you have those extra year guys and the
transfer portal, How's it affected the level of level play?
Speaker 4 (18:25):
You know, I think it's made the level of talent
in small college basketball better, right, I think, just right,
just from the share fact that there's right more players
for less spots, you know. I mean I look at
some teams in our league this year that finished seventh
eighth place, that had five or six Division One transfers,
and so yeah, I think it's it's it's helped the uh,
(18:48):
just the overall level of play. And you know, I
think there is something in today's right landscape of college
basketball to just being able to be older, right, And
you know, again like for us, it's kind of how
we've been successful wherever we've been, just because we've had
older guys that I think have went through some stuff
that sometimes maybe realize they're on their last chance, you know,
(19:10):
and realize that they kind of have to make the
best of it.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
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Speaker 2 (19:27):
How have you change over these last six years in
terms of your coaching approach offensively? For example, are you
running the same stuff now you're in there? You know?
Speaker 4 (19:37):
No, you know, for us, you know, offensively, something I
kind I always love to tinker around with things, play
around with it, and I feel like, you know, from
an offensive standpoint, especially because you know, again we're trying
to get as much talent as we can, and so
we're going to have to change what we do system wise,
maybe year in and year out on the offensive ends,
you know. Defensively, I think we really pride ourselves on
(19:58):
being one of the best defensive teams in the country.
I think, you know, our two years here, we were
second in the country and defensive field goal percentage and
you know, gave up less than fifty eight points per
game both years, and so you know, I think if
you have great players offensively, you know, and you really
really defend and you don't turn the ball over, you
got a chance to win every game.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
When you when you point out your defensive numbers, do
you have a set style you want to play that
way or do you change it more based upon your talent.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
So I've been very reluctant to change what we do defensively,
I think probably just because we've had, you know, a
lot of success with it, and so you know, we
have heavy heavy ball pressure. But we're also in the gaps.
And I think just with the way that the game
is called now, right, if you if you have great
ball pressure, but you're trying to be on the line,
up the line, right, I feel like teams are going to.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Live in the bonus. And so you know, again, we
have a.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Lot of link, a lot of athleticism, and I feel like,
especially at our level, we've been kind of able to
just swallow a lot of teams up with that.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, I agree that in the gaps and being active
more so than and up the line, but it's not
you're not playing pack line where uh you know, I
think temple wise, that could affect the offense as well,
and it doesn't. It doesn't necessarily serve you to play
that way, especially with with the athletes that you have.
You know, my brother was a standing a state with
the men. In one year he spent the off season
(21:25):
kind of doing a deed dive on on pack line.
And this is before really they took off. Was when
they first started and they try to implement and the
idea was like, hey, here we have all this great
length and athleticism, what if what would pack line look like?
You know, there'd be no space in the lane and
just didn't work for him. You know, part of it
was they hadn't really all coached it before, so as
(21:45):
you know, when you coach something new, you're learning kind
of as you go. But the other, the other part
to it is that it just didn't didn't work for
that type of athlete how they'd always played, and it
was it was too big a learning curve, I think,
to even to even get to. But I find that
stuff fascinating to see the evolution of the sport. You know,
(22:07):
the example I always give is, you know, everybody runs
the ballscreen continuity on some level, and then you know, finally,
I finally seen this year people doing what I like
to do, which is like, right, yeah, you come in
the middle, but you can also flip it and go
to the baseline and use different kind of quadrants of
the court. And the angles are different, the ball screens
are different, the roles are different. But it's part of
(22:28):
what makes basketball different now is now that that weak
side corner is such a money spot that you know,
twenty five thirty years ago, I drive and draw and
kick the weakside corner. Now defenses are set to play that,
so you have to have, you know, other answers for
the problems. But that's the part that really kind of
stimulates your brain in terms of the coaching, at least
(22:49):
for me. I don't know about you.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Yeah, for sure. It is fascinating to look at. So
this was I guess you're twenty two for me in
college basketball. And so to look back when I first
started coaching to now, I mean, it's it's nine to
day difference, right as far as like I felt like
when I was when I was growing up and I
started coaching, I mean, how many true motion teams?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Did you see?
Speaker 3 (23:11):
A lot?
Speaker 4 (23:12):
A lot, right, And it's like nowadays it's it's a
rarity to see a team that's a true motion team.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah yeah, there's nobody. There's there's nobody runs nobody runs motion.
It just doesn't exist. And you wonder, you know, I
use football as an example, right, So the zone read stuff.
If you ask football guys, they'll tell you, like, that's
just theer, that's just triple option football. The only thing
that's changed is outside the numbers, you have the ability
(23:41):
to throw the football. And part of it is the
rule change where you know, now you can actually go
about three and a half four yards down the field blocking,
so you can't tell the RPO is, you can't tell
if it's runner pass. So you have, yeah, basically option football, okay,
with the ability to throw it, and then it's hard
to read based on the blocking because they can go
(24:01):
further down the field. Right. So that's but the idea is,
you know the old wishbone that Oklahoma used to run,
you know, back in the eighties when when coach Switcher
was there, like it still exists. It just looks very
different now, but it's really the same offense, right right, Okay,
So the question becomes does the motion offense ever return?
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Man, I would say probably not, right, I mean just
when you think again when you mentioned ball screens and
just right, I mean again, twenty years ago in college basketball,
there wasn't near as many ball screens as you see now, right,
And so I would love to see a stat on
what like ball screens purpossession now versus ride in the
(24:49):
early two thousands, like what that would look like.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
But yeah, it's a fascinating question though.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Coach, Yeah, I think it's interesting. Right, Like the Warriors,
since kurtr has been there, they've had like league lows
in ball screens because you have Steph who's just as
good off the ball as he is on the ball,
maybe even better off the ball than he is on
the ball. So does it come down to personnel wise?
And then then the big thing is you're you'd have
(25:16):
to teach your team how to play within emotion offense.
None of them played it growing up, right, they all
just I mean, one of the reasons I want to
play five out is honestly, even though they don't necessarily
do anything out of it. In AU ball, that's how
most AU teams play is five out or then into
a high ball screen. So you can kind of play
(25:38):
to their strengths. You do, you have to teach them
what specifically cuts and reads you have, but the general
premise of spacing they actually know pretty well. And then
some of the reasons I think they know better because
like kids don't play as much, but they do work
out probably more so they're doing stuff one on cone,
(25:59):
so they know where it's supposed to be. Now you
just got to kind of put the chess pieces in
place so that they can go and and and they
can make those libraries in the game. But I think
that the death of the motion offense and will it
ever be brought back to life. That's a fascinating question.
I just don't. I don't know anybody who has the
time or can keep their team together. I mean maybe
(26:21):
like a Matt Painter and they run some sort of motion,
you know, and then you know, Virginia runs some block remover,
but not a lot. I just I remember every you know,
we used to call passing game too for his motions.
Passing game. So you can do passing cut or passing
the screen away, you can do two side motion. There's
(26:42):
a lot of ones, but generally nobody runs it. It's crazy,
the death of the motion offense. And I wonder if
it comes back.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
Yeah, and I think too, like when you make a
great point, like I know, for me, the hardest thing
for me to get our guys to do is to
screen like in anything right, like ball screens, down screens,
just because growing up now kids aren't taught to screen right.
It's and I think that is kind of problematic, right
if you if you look at trying to run something
(27:10):
with a lot of motion principles.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
What's the goal for you? What's if you close your
eyes and say, coach, what do you want what do
you what's your goal in coaching to be?
Speaker 4 (27:22):
You know, so I've known that I wanted to be
a college basketball coach since I was right since I
was like fourteen years old, but I didn't didn't play
college basketball, got recruited by some Division iiies, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Unfortunately it wasn't.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
A high demand for an unathletic white guy that just
shoots it, okay, right, so uh you know, so when
I was growing up, right, my goal was just to
be a college basketball coach. And then now getting to
this point, obviously right to we've been so close to
winning the national title at Talladega in here, and I,
(27:55):
you know, more than anything, right, I want to win
a national championship.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
You know.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
If I had some great opportunities to go to the
Division IE level, that just maybe hasn't been the right
for us, for you know, for my wife and I.
But coach, I don't know, man, I don't know what
God has in store. But exud mean, I love being
at Langston. And you know, if you'd have told me
twenty years ago that this is the life I would have, man,
I wouldn't. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Well, what do you have to be better at to
a national championship personally, you know, I.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Think we spend so much time and our identities based
so much off what we do defensively. You know that
our offense struggles sometimes, you know. I mean when you
look at the numbers, you wouldn't see that. I mean,
we averaged about eighty three points a game and shot
close to fifty percent from the field.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
And but you.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Know, I think there's some times our offense becomes a
little stagnant. You know, we run a ton of sets.
I'm really big, and trying to get the ball to
our best players and in their spots and playing off them.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
But man, I know we can get better, you know,
in that aspect.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yeah, I think it's interesting, you know that there's just
so many little things that get uncovered when you get
to that very very top level of play, and then
you're like, oh God, we should have done that, man,
should have done that. But then there's no game. You
gotta you gotta wait, you know, eight months before you
play your player, your your next game. Why do you
(29:22):
think it's so difficult to climb from the NAIA to
the Division one head coaching ladder? It really, it really feels.
I mean, look, Ben McCollum was at D two killing
it forever. I mean just now now some of it
was he was a little choosy because I think there
were some other opportunities could have had. But any ia, like,
you just don't see that level of jump. And it
(29:43):
is college basketball. You are, you know, you are in
the transfer portal, you are recruiting, you're putting together. You're
actually doing a lot more than the manual labor than
the big boys do. Why do you think it's difficult
to make that jump? You know?
Speaker 3 (29:58):
I think a couple of things.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Like one, I think when look like thirty years ago, right,
I mean if you look at the number of junior
college coaches that became Division one head coaches, right, that
was a common occurrence. And now I feel like levels
are so much more kind of.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Installated, you know. I think you know, searge firms play
a big role in that.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Right, Like, and if if you're any Division one school
and you go hiring an AI coach and you're you're
not winning the press conference, right, it's.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Not necessarily a sexy higher you know.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
And two, I think you know, the NAI maybe doesn't
get credit for you know, the especially the top of
the NAI is really really good basketball. You know, I
think a lot of people have a perception like it's
just the wild wild West, that academics are just awful.
And you know, I don't think people realize like how
similar INNAI and Division two really are, you know, I mean,
especially academically, there's not there's not much differences between the
(30:54):
two levels.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, it's I think the big thing is that, uh
And I credit Josh Boon when he hired me. And
I'm sure you know your president, your ad as well,
which is you know a lot of guys are in
those positions are just risk averse, right, just risk averse. Oh,
I don't know. You'd rather hire a guy who sat
on somebody's bench and you don't. And they called you
(31:18):
about him, they told you how Grady was, but you
have no real where It's like you're actually coaching, doing
the you know, the dirty work that at Division I
level assistanms most times do and building it and building
consistent winner. You know. So it's that part of it.
And I'm not being critical of I'm not being critical
(31:38):
of athletic director. We're painting what I say was a
real picture, like the real picture is like, look, it's
hard to take a risk. You don't know where that
guy is in his contract, what his relationship with the
president is. You know, every school has some you know,
different marching orders. But it is interesting that, you know,
ANAIA as as many good coaches that have come from there,
(32:00):
just don't see them going from an I an A
I A head coach to Division I head coach very often.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Yeah, it is, it's I think it is a rarity.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
And you know, I think when you look at some
guys that that have come from the NAI, it really
makes you right being at this level, makes you root
for their success, like, you know, like this year for instance,
I know Craig Doughty was hired at Houston Christian.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
You know he won a championship Graceland.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
I mean you look at guys like Ray Harper right
Jacksonville State. Uh, I mean he won a few national
titles at Oklahoma City. So yeah, I think there are
some examples, but yeah, you're right, there are definitely few
and far between.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah, No, it's it's it's interesting. If you could change
one thing about how you do business, you can change
one thing about college basketball from the ni A perspective
I put you in charge, what would be you know?
Speaker 3 (32:59):
I think.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
So for instance, for us, you know, we always could
play thirty regular season games, and then two years ago
that got shrunk down to twenty eight, again more compatible
to NCAA Division two, And so I would really try
to keep our identity at the NAI level, like right,
Like I think it needs to be different just because
(33:23):
you don't have the maybe the name recognition of being
at an NCAAA school. So like, why would we cut
games from thirty to twenty eight? Or you know, four
years ago NAI to one in Division two merged in
men's basketball, so now it's just one division, and so
scholarships went from eleven scholarships to eight, right, and so
(33:44):
like those are some changes that I don't necessarily think,
you know, are good for.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Our level.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Even today. Who do you look up to? Intention?
Speaker 4 (33:54):
You know, my mentor is a guy named Jim Siah
coached it, you know, it was a top assistant UCLA
for eight years and then was the interim head coach
at USC And man, I was really fortunate to learn
from from coach. I was young guy, twenty four years old,
and man, I'm sitting in his office the first thing
he says.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Coach, he says, Man, he said, let me help you.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
He said, if you, you know, want to make it
in this profession, be able to recruit.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
He says. If you if you can get players, you'll
always have a job. Right, So that's always uh right.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
Really really stuck with me. But you know, when you
look at him, man, he is just man, a great
human being. I think he does things the right way, man,
cares about people, and so yeah, I think being able
to learn from him really changed the whole trajector me
in my you know, my career.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Every time. Jimmy Side is a great dude. He's a
really really I did not expect that to be the name,
that to be the answer. Give me a player who
you feel like going through the process of playing for you,
go into one of your schools has forever changed them
for the better. That's like the stuff, the stuff that
(35:06):
you love to talk about. Give me one guy, you're like, man,
he came in. It was dicey and look at him now. Man.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
So when I was at Fresno Pacific, we were in
n ai school that went Division two, you know in California.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
We had a guy named John Taylor. So JOHNN.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
Taylor was the National JUCO Player of the Year at Mott. So, like,
you know, Purdue wanted the Michigan State wanted him, but
his academics were a train wreck, and so he had
to get like twenty four hours of summer school to
get eligible for US. And man, just when you look
at him, you know, he had the son when he
was really young, and he's had a great career playing overseas.
(35:47):
But man, he's a great dad, he's a great person.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Man.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
Just just seeing the success and he's had outside of basketball,
something that's you know, like you know, really touches me.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
That's why you do it right, Like, yeah, you do
it twin, but you do it because of that thing, right,
Like you were there a part of the life changing
process of college basketball for this guy who you know,
he's gonna whenever he stops playing, he has a head
start on everybody else and he has all these all
these great experiences, all these great experiences. Well, listen, I
(36:21):
really appreciate your time and having been around Langston for
probably twenty five years, what you've accomplished is unbelievable. I mean, truly,
truly unbelievable. I know you want to take that next
step and when the whole thing, I'm sure that's coming.
But man, I appreciate you joining me and I respect
how to what you've done.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Thank you so much, coach. I appreciate you having me.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Mine. Thanks so much to Chris Wright for joining me.
He's done a remarkable job at Langston. A reminder listening
to The Doug Gotlip Show daily three to five Eastern time.
We also have an hour pod only called in the
Bonus type in Doug gotliber every download podcasts wherever you
got this podcast, and you can get that one as well.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
I'm Doug Gotlieb. This is all ball h
Hey wan to welcome in.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm Doug Gottlie.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
This is all Ball.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
We got a great all ball for you, a guy
who I have respected for years for the job that
he's done now at two locations in a Chris Wright
will be my guest. He's the head coach at Langston University. Langston,
of course is in HBCU. They also are in Naia
and what he has done with that program is truly
(00:33):
truly remarkable. Check it in to you, Check it in
with you. A week two of being Individual one men's
head basketball coach, and I'll keep sharing some of these stories,
but it's really fascinating, you know, as you get deeper
and deeper into recruiting, even during this kind of a
shortened period of time because we got the job in
the middle of May, you just kind of start to
(00:53):
figure out the landscape which most of us already knew
how it existed. And I would say that while some
would complain about agents, my dealings with the agents has
been great. They've actually been really really good in terms
of locking in on zoom times and general planning and
(01:14):
being professional and giving you a real sense of where
the kid is in decision making. The high school coaches
are still important. The junior college coaches are the or
the au coaches are still very very important in terms
of connecting with the player. I would say the one
issue which has always been an issue in college basketball
and professional basketball has been kind of the guy that's
(01:37):
the he's not the agent and he's not the coach,
and he's just kind of in the middle. And sometimes
that guy, not always, can be a bad actor and
can lead you to believe that it's one thing when
it's something else. But outside of that, I mean to
be a totally candid with you, it's still, you know,
(01:59):
a chance a play, style of play. Location plays a
little bit of factor. Hey, coach, can we win? Do
we have twenty four hour access to the gym? Apparently
this is an issue at some places, it's not where
I coach. But outside of that, it has not nearly
been everyone with their hands out the way I think
(02:20):
the world perceives it to be. But some of that
is obviously you're the What players are getting for me
is opportunity, a chance to play, and a chance to
play what I think is going to be a very
player friendly system and a boy which the ball moves.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
But we also score a lot of points.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
The point is, though, that while everyone has tried to
talk me off of this hill of coaching in college basketball,
I'm a couple of weeks in and I'm loving every
second of it. Obviously, with the NBA Finals upcoming, I'm
just going to tell you preliminarily, I think the Dallas
Mavericks is going to win. They have better im protection,
and they have a better best player who's also onechampionships before.
(03:01):
And while you know America may not value European championship
or a FOBA championship, the fact that at a young
age Luca was able to carry his team and make
big shots. And you look at close out games so
far in the playoffs and Luca is not afraid of
the big moment. Neither is Kyrie. They're not a perfect team,
but I do think that their best the matchup actually
(03:25):
favors them, whereas in other matchups it would favor the
Celtics more. Perzingis could be the X factor, right because
he can defend the ram Man stretch to the floor.
But when you haven't played in like a month a
little bit more and now you're gonna play in the
NBA Finals, that seems like a stretch, just does. So
I'm gonna take the Mavericks. We'll say Mavericks in six six.
(03:46):
All right, let's welcome in our guest. He's the head
coach of Langston University at to All Americans this year.
He's an amazing job considering you know, I've been around
Langston for twenty five years or so, and it was
a nondescript basketball program until now Here's the reason why
(04:07):
I'm fascinated, coach, by how you've built this thing. And
I'm fascinated because, you know, Langston is a place that
I know really, really well, obviously, not just my time
in Okland State, my time in Oklahoma and you know
here it is. It's like when you talk about historically
black college and universities, it's it's not one that I
(04:29):
think people mention often take me through how you how
you got the job?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
So crazy story.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
So I was at another HBCU in Alabama, Talladega College.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
So we were there for four years.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
In our last season there, you know, we make it
to the NAI National Championship and and lose there, and
our president along along the way that last year, decided
to retire and so ever after the season and Tallade
just talking about cutting our scholarships and you know, we
we had really no desire to my wife and I
(05:05):
to leave Dega and uh, you know, so man, I
throw my stuff into Langston, thinking, right, I don't know
anyone there, but let's just see kind of what happens.
And you know, even if i'm you know, kind of
you know, do get some feedback. I don't know if
it's a job that I want. And so, you know,
I send my stuff in about two am. The next morning,
I wake up with about five miss calls from from
(05:26):
the search firm they were using, and so I think
I zoomed a day later. And our president at the time,
doctor kin Smith, just really wanted to win. And so
you know, I go interview there and still not sure
if you know, if it's a job that I'm interested
in or not. I'm supposed to have dinner with him
for about an hour and a half and we end
up talking for about six hours. And you know, he
(05:47):
really made it a great job, and you know, it's
it's kind of a god thing how it worked out.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What's it like be a white coach at an HPCU.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
You know, Doug, I get asked that a lot, And uh,
I guess because it's six years now, right that we've
been in an HBCU, Like it's very second nature to me,
right like now, like you almost don't think anything of it.
But yeah, I mean I definitely think there are right
some challenges that come with that, right especially you know
(06:18):
when I was at Talladega playing in that league that
was all HBCUs. Like I probably wasn't the most well
liked guy in the league for sure.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
It's interesting though, because my dad used to tell me.
He always said, like, you know, you go you know
you're white, how you go into it, Like you you're
up in New York, You go into all black part
town and you play ball like you play the right way.
You treat people with respect, like they will just because
you came to their their town, their city, just because
you came to their gym. The love you get is
(06:49):
a real thing. And I remember I lived in Oklahoma
City on thirty sixth Street Edgemere Park and there's a
it's a boys and girls club. And since we've been redone,
they did a really nice job with it. But they
used to play like on Wednesday nights, and I just
I just started in media, and I was working at
(07:11):
the sports amble in Oklhom City and doing ESPN games,
and I went to play and I brought my wife
and the wife with me, and she had never she
grew up in drum right, like she had no problem
with like, you know, she around diversity whatever. But it
was definitely her first time when she was the only
white person in a gym. And you know, by the
(07:32):
end of the night, you know, she's got five or
six other girlfriends and wives whatever around and we're a
bunch of playing a dope ball and we just hung
out afterwards and then like we all went out and
had a drink at a bar or whatever. But it
is interesting that there'll always be some people that push back,
but overwhelmingly, and I'm sure you've experienced this, overwhelmingly, it's
just about being treated normal, you know, like there's you
(07:55):
know what I mean, And because of it, I feel
like there's there's you get a ton of kind of
love and praise.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I loved, you know, our six years being two different
HBCUs just in it. I think I really connect with
the type of guys that we have. You know, you know,
obviously we get a lot of first generation college students,
which I was one, and so I think there's a
you know, a chance to make a great impact. But
you know, it's it's funny though, like you know, even
when I was hired at Langston, I know our president
took a lot of heat for right for hiring another
(08:27):
white coach.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
And so.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
But you know, I think we started off seventeen and
know our first year, and you know, I feel really
blessed though, because I do feel like we have a
very you know, loving alumni base, you know, and for us,
it's it's it's definitely home now.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well, so what's the secret? I mean again, it's it's
one thing to take over place, nothing to take over
place immediately, make it a power. How'd you do it?
Speaker 4 (08:56):
You know, obviously gray comes down to players, right at
the end of the day, Right, you don't have good players,
I don't think it matters what you do. So, you know,
I think we get really really good players for the
n ai level. You know, last year we signed eight
guys and six of them were guys that averaged eight
or more points at the division one they were at.
And so I think that's you know, a big part
(09:16):
of it. And then I think, right like, culture is
such a buzzword, right, I almost hesitate even saying that,
But at the same time, I think our culture is
very unique, you know. I mean, you know, we try
to be extremely tough, extremely disciplined, and you know, our
guys always end up being very, very unselfish, and so
I think just the combination of having really good players
(09:37):
and then you know, having a good players and good
assistant coaches.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So okay, so you bringing eight new players, how do
you establish culture when you have that level of turn.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
So, you know, I joke with a lot of my
guys in you know, Division one now, being a small
college guy for my whole career, right like, we've kind
of always recruited, how Division one is recruit now, right Like,
it's a lot of turnover, you know, very very I've
always been very transfer heavy. But you know, I think,
you know, for us, it's just really establishing, right what
(10:10):
the expectations are for day one and then really holding
guys accountable, right whether your guy one or your guy eighteen.
I always tell them you're not going to be treated equal,
but everyone's going to be treated fair.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
And so.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
It's amazing though, how close our teams always end up
being and they really end up playing for one another.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, that's the big thing, right, Like they're not necessarily
always going to like us as coaches, right, Like, it's
not about like liking just you get true more respect.
But you need to love each other, right, that's the
that's the play for each other. Love each other, have
each other's back. That's that's I think the magic of
the secret sauce as well as having really good players. Okay,
(10:51):
but when you bring in those guys from Division one,
how do you manage their expectations? Because again this is
and I can tell you kind of at my level, right,
you have a guy transfers down, for example, they think
they could come in and be the best player on Earth,
when they don't realize that everybody else at that level
thinks the exact same thing, Right, how do you manage
(11:11):
that with all these D one guys who think, ania
I'm going to come in average twenty five points game.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
You know, Coach Shot, I really believe you know, the
way that you recruit a guy really sets the tone
for how you can coach them. And so even in
the recruiting process, you know, I try to be brutally
honest with guys, because you're right, Like I think, right,
if a Division one guy that comes down at a
level and he's averaged eight ten points of the Division
one level, he thinks he's going to walk in and
(11:38):
score twenty two a night when in reality, right, that's
probably not going to happen. And so just managing those
expectations from the jump, and you know, again I'm honest
with guys and just say, hey, look, man, we really
want you.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
I think you're a great fit for what we're trying
to do.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
But like I don't want you to think that you're
doing us a favor by coming here, because if you
don't come here, we're going to get another really really
good player, whether it's you or someone else.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
What is one thing you have to do at your
job that people would go like, he has to do? What?
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Doug? I don't know if we have long enough to
go through this list, man, but.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
I think just you know, so for us, you know,
graduating our guys is again it's extremely extremely important.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
I mean I think every coach would say that.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
But again we you know, a lot of our guys
that we get are at our level for a reason, right,
And a lot of times that typically tends to be academically,
and so I think just the amount of babysitting and
just kind of nurturing and and just walking guys to
class and being sure that every assignment that they have
is being done. And so I think just the hours
(12:50):
an hour.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
You do that yourself. As head coach, you have to
do that yourself.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
So our assistants are great, but yeah, I'm definitely definitely
part of that for sure. And so you know, in
our two years here, we graduated sixteen of sixteen guys,
So you know, I think that's probably our most impressive accomplishment.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
No question, if people only knew, like what what what
you did? What you would you did? You got an
F because you didn't turn in an assignment that was easy.
Like what all you have to do is show up?
You know, I'll never forget this is a going. So
my senior year, we had we called the group the Knuckleheads,
(13:33):
So we had a big group red shirting. Victor Williams
transferred to MI Illinois State. He was Missouri Valley Conference
freshman the year. Uh Vic obviously has his own AU
program in Kansas City. Hansom Broxy transferred and he's an
assistant with the Calves. He transferred from Minnesota Dan Lawston
god Rest. His soul was as a junior college All American.
(13:53):
He was sitting out. Who else did we had?
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Oh? We had Jason keep who as a JUCO guy
from Northern Idaho junior college. You've worked on an oil rig.
Uh Uh. So we ad Jason Keap train thingk. We
had one more and then we had Nate Flaming also
got rested, so he died in plane crash and coach
had them have a Saturday history class. It was worth
four hours, four hours every Saturday. And basically, like I
(14:21):
heard him when he brought them all in and he's like,
oh man, this is a basic level history class. You
show up and do what you're supposed to do, you'll
get a c. Put any level of h of effort in,
you should get a beat. And he's like, you work
your butt off, you can get an in. You get
you get an a, four credits, you're in a good place.
(14:41):
So and he was like, you miss any of these classes, brother,
it's gonna be bad news. It's gonna be a bad
day for all y'all. So it was every Saturday morning
was like eight to in right. So I'm gonna say
this was one of the first games of this season
my senior year, probably the third game they played Tulsa.
(15:04):
And because it was like back then it was like
Fox Sports Southwest, the game was an eleven o'clock game.
So we we don't have about like half our guys
because they're in this class. So the rest of us, we,
you know, we hooped some, we shoot some, we go
get some some to eat, like a tailgate, and we
walk in. We get in the stadium and they're already there,
all except for Nate Fleming are there and we're like,
(15:26):
what are you guys doing here? Like don't you have class? Like,
oh man, the old man will never know. And I
was like, really, okay, this one I got to see.
So Nate Fleming comes in at like ten fifty for
eleven o'clock kickoffs, Like where were you guys? He let
us go early. You guys should have come b blah
(15:46):
blah blah. So that Monday we had work. It was
like a workout on like a Monday night, six o'clock
and I had a test at like I'm gonna say five,
So I was gonna like, so I come walking in
like six ' ten and everybody else is like showered
(16:06):
walking out. I was like, what happened? Oh, they canceled practice.
They're like, but you gotta go in there and watch. Well,
I gotta watch. Just just go in there. So I
peek around the corner and Victor Williams is thrown up
in a trash can, cry and saying he's gonna call
his mom. He made him do They had to do
every one of them had to do six seventeen's consecutively
(16:28):
under a minute, and if anybody missed the time, they
had to start over. And I mean, you know, you
get about.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Not a fun day.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
You get to about thirteen or fourteen, and no one's
making that time, and no one's particularly happy, and there's
just a point of no return there. But they did it.
It was It was amazing. The point is that, like,
you know, all you had to do was show up.
That's it. Just show up, you know, just just just
show up. This is not that hard, just show up
(17:02):
the glass. But you know, they're kids, and the thought
of being a football game was too big. What is
what's your league?
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Like, you know, it is a you know, very very
well coached league. So the right Sooner Athletic Conference. They
have traditionally been one of the better INNAI conferences in
the country. I mean when you look at our league, like,
you know, mac Us won the national title, Texas Wesleyans
won a couple. Oklahoma City traditionally right one of the
(17:30):
powers of the n AI and so yeah, I mean,
you know, year one we came in and went twenty
and two in league, and I said, man, this right,
great year. I think we're going to be better next year,
but there's no way we'll go twenty and two. And
then this year we go twenty one in one and
win the league. But they have a lot of respect
for the coaches in our league. And it's just really
really good level of basketball.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
No, it's really good basketball, really really good basketball. You
mentioned the Division one transfers. It does feel like the
transfer portal, the COVID year seems to have affected your
level for a good thing as a good thing. But
again I'm an outsider. You know, like, how has over
(18:14):
the last six years, not just going through COVID COVID year.
Uh so you have those extra year guys and the
transfer portal, How's it affected the level of level play?
Speaker 4 (18:25):
You know, I think it's made the level of talent
in small college basketball better, right, I think, just right,
just from the share fact that there's right more players
for less spots, you know. I mean I look at
some teams in our league this year that finished seventh
eighth place, that had five or six Division One transfers,
and so yeah, I think it's it's it's helped the uh,
(18:48):
just the overall level of play. And you know, I
think there is something in today's right landscape of college
basketball to just being able to be older, right, And
you know, again like for us, it's kind of how
we've been successful wherever we've been, just because we've had
older guys that I think have went through some stuff
that sometimes maybe realize they're on their last chance, you know,
(19:10):
and realize that they kind of have to make the
best of it.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
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Speaker 2 (19:27):
How have you change over these last six years in
terms of your coaching approach offensively? For example, are you
running the same stuff now you're in there? You know?
Speaker 4 (19:37):
No, you know, for us, you know, offensively, something I
kind I always love to tinker around with things, play
around with it, and I feel like, you know, from
an offensive standpoint, especially because you know, again we're trying
to get as much talent as we can, and so
we're going to have to change what we do system wise,
maybe year in and year out on the offensive ends,
you know. Defensively, I think we really pride ourselves on
(19:58):
being one of the best defensive teams in the country.
I think, you know, our two years here, we were
second in the country and defensive field goal percentage and
you know, gave up less than fifty eight points per
game both years, and so you know, I think if
you have great players offensively, you know, and you really
really defend and you don't turn the ball over, you
got a chance to win every game.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
When you when you point out your defensive numbers, do
you have a set style you want to play that
way or do you change it more based upon your talent.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
So I've been very reluctant to change what we do defensively,
I think probably just because we've had, you know, a
lot of success with it, and so you know, we
have heavy heavy ball pressure. But we're also in the gaps.
And I think just with the way that the game
is called now, right, if you if you have great
ball pressure, but you're trying to be on the line,
up the line, right, I feel like teams are going to.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Live in the bonus. And so you know, again, we
have a.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Lot of link, a lot of athleticism, and I feel like,
especially at our level, we've been kind of able to
just swallow a lot of teams up with that.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, I agree that in the gaps and being active
more so than and up the line, but it's not
you're not playing pack line where uh you know, I
think temple wise, that could affect the offense as well,
and it doesn't. It doesn't necessarily serve you to play
that way, especially with with the athletes that you have.
You know, my brother was a standing a state with
the men. In one year he spent the off season
(21:25):
kind of doing a deed dive on on pack line.
And this is before really they took off. Was when
they first started and they try to implement and the
idea was like, hey, here we have all this great
length and athleticism, what if what would pack line look like?
You know, there'd be no space in the lane and
just didn't work for him. You know, part of it
was they hadn't really all coached it before, so as
(21:45):
you know, when you coach something new, you're learning kind
of as you go. But the other, the other part
to it is that it just didn't didn't work for
that type of athlete how they'd always played, and it
was it was too big a learning curve, I think,
to even to even get to. But I find that
stuff fascinating to see the evolution of the sport. You know,
(22:07):
the example I always give is, you know, everybody runs
the ballscreen continuity on some level, and then you know, finally,
I finally seen this year people doing what I like
to do, which is like, right, yeah, you come in
the middle, but you can also flip it and go
to the baseline and use different kind of quadrants of
the court. And the angles are different, the ball screens
are different, the roles are different. But it's part of
(22:28):
what makes basketball different now is now that that weak
side corner is such a money spot that you know,
twenty five thirty years ago, I drive and draw and
kick the weakside corner. Now defenses are set to play that,
so you have to have, you know, other answers for
the problems. But that's the part that really kind of
stimulates your brain in terms of the coaching, at least
(22:49):
for me. I don't know about you.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Yeah, for sure. It is fascinating to look at. So
this was I guess you're twenty two for me in
college basketball. And so to look back when I first
started coaching to now, I mean, it's it's nine to
day difference, right as far as like I felt like
when I was when I was growing up and I
started coaching, I mean, how many true motion teams?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Did you see?
Speaker 3 (23:11):
A lot?
Speaker 4 (23:12):
A lot, right, And it's like nowadays it's it's a
rarity to see a team that's a true motion team.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah yeah, there's nobody. There's there's nobody runs nobody runs motion.
It just doesn't exist. And you wonder, you know, I
use football as an example, right, So the zone read stuff.
If you ask football guys, they'll tell you, like, that's
just theer, that's just triple option football. The only thing
that's changed is outside the numbers, you have the ability
(23:41):
to throw the football. And part of it is the
rule change where you know, now you can actually go
about three and a half four yards down the field blocking,
so you can't tell the RPO is, you can't tell
if it's runner pass. So you have, yeah, basically option football, okay,
with the ability to throw it, and then it's hard
to read based on the blocking because they can go
(24:01):
further down the field. Right. So that's but the idea is,
you know the old wishbone that Oklahoma used to run,
you know, back in the eighties when when coach Switcher
was there, like it still exists. It just looks very
different now, but it's really the same offense, right right, Okay,
So the question becomes does the motion offense ever return?
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Man, I would say probably not, right, I mean just
when you think again when you mentioned ball screens and
just right, I mean again, twenty years ago in college basketball,
there wasn't near as many ball screens as you see now, right,
And so I would love to see a stat on
what like ball screens purpossession now versus ride in the
(24:49):
early two thousands, like what that would look like.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
But yeah, it's a fascinating question though.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Coach, Yeah, I think it's interesting. Right, Like the Warriors,
since kurtr has been there, they've had like league lows
in ball screens because you have Steph who's just as
good off the ball as he is on the ball,
maybe even better off the ball than he is on
the ball. So does it come down to personnel wise?
And then then the big thing is you're you'd have
(25:16):
to teach your team how to play within emotion offense.
None of them played it growing up, right, they all
just I mean, one of the reasons I want to
play five out is honestly, even though they don't necessarily
do anything out of it. In AU ball, that's how
most AU teams play is five out or then into
a high ball screen. So you can kind of play
(25:38):
to their strengths. You do, you have to teach them
what specifically cuts and reads you have, but the general
premise of spacing they actually know pretty well. And then
some of the reasons I think they know better because
like kids don't play as much, but they do work
out probably more so they're doing stuff one on cone,
(25:59):
so they know where it's supposed to be. Now you
just got to kind of put the chess pieces in
place so that they can go and and and they
can make those libraries in the game. But I think
that the death of the motion offense and will it
ever be brought back to life. That's a fascinating question.
I just don't. I don't know anybody who has the
time or can keep their team together. I mean maybe
(26:21):
like a Matt Painter and they run some sort of motion,
you know, and then you know, Virginia runs some block remover,
but not a lot. I just I remember every you know,
we used to call passing game too for his motions.
Passing game. So you can do passing cut or passing
the screen away, you can do two side motion. There's
(26:42):
a lot of ones, but generally nobody runs it. It's crazy,
the death of the motion offense. And I wonder if
it comes back.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
Yeah, and I think too, like when you make a
great point, like I know, for me, the hardest thing
for me to get our guys to do is to
screen like in anything right, like ball screens, down screens,
just because growing up now kids aren't taught to screen right.
It's and I think that is kind of problematic, right
if you if you look at trying to run something
(27:10):
with a lot of motion principles.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
What's the goal for you? What's if you close your
eyes and say, coach, what do you want what do
you what's your goal in coaching to be?
Speaker 4 (27:22):
You know, so I've known that I wanted to be
a college basketball coach since I was right since I
was like fourteen years old, but I didn't didn't play
college basketball, got recruited by some Division iiies, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Unfortunately it wasn't.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
A high demand for an unathletic white guy that just
shoots it, okay, right, so uh you know, so when
I was growing up, right, my goal was just to
be a college basketball coach. And then now getting to
this point, obviously right to we've been so close to
winning the national title at Talladega in here, and I,
(27:55):
you know, more than anything, right, I want to win
a national championship.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
You know.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
If I had some great opportunities to go to the
Division IE level, that just maybe hasn't been the right
for us, for you know, for my wife and I.
But coach, I don't know, man, I don't know what
God has in store. But exud mean, I love being
at Langston. And you know, if you'd have told me
twenty years ago that this is the life I would have, man,
I wouldn't. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Well, what do you have to be better at to
a national championship personally, you know, I.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Think we spend so much time and our identities based
so much off what we do defensively. You know that
our offense struggles sometimes, you know. I mean when you
look at the numbers, you wouldn't see that. I mean,
we averaged about eighty three points a game and shot
close to fifty percent from the field.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
And but you.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Know, I think there's some times our offense becomes a
little stagnant. You know, we run a ton of sets.
I'm really big, and trying to get the ball to
our best players and in their spots and playing off them.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
But man, I know we can get better, you know,
in that aspect.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yeah, I think it's interesting, you know that there's just
so many little things that get uncovered when you get
to that very very top level of play, and then
you're like, oh God, we should have done that, man,
should have done that. But then there's no game. You
gotta you gotta wait, you know, eight months before you
play your player, your your next game. Why do you
(29:22):
think it's so difficult to climb from the NAIA to
the Division one head coaching ladder? It really, it really feels.
I mean, look, Ben McCollum was at D two killing
it forever. I mean just now now some of it
was he was a little choosy because I think there
were some other opportunities could have had. But any ia, like,
you just don't see that level of jump. And it
(29:43):
is college basketball. You are, you know, you are in
the transfer portal, you are recruiting, you're putting together. You're
actually doing a lot more than the manual labor than
the big boys do. Why do you think it's difficult
to make that jump? You know?
Speaker 3 (29:58):
I think a couple of things.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Like one, I think when look like thirty years ago, right,
I mean if you look at the number of junior
college coaches that became Division one head coaches, right, that
was a common occurrence. And now I feel like levels
are so much more kind of.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Installated, you know. I think you know, searge firms play
a big role in that.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Right, Like, and if if you're any Division one school
and you go hiring an AI coach and you're you're
not winning the press conference, right, it's.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
Not necessarily a sexy higher you know.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
And two, I think you know, the NAI maybe doesn't
get credit for you know, the especially the top of
the NAI is really really good basketball. You know, I
think a lot of people have a perception like it's
just the wild wild West, that academics are just awful.
And you know, I don't think people realize like how
similar INNAI and Division two really are, you know, I mean,
especially academically, there's not there's not much differences between the
(30:54):
two levels.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, it's I think the big thing is that, uh
And I credit Josh Boon when he hired me. And
I'm sure you know your president, your ad as well,
which is you know a lot of guys are in
those positions are just risk averse, right, just risk averse. Oh,
I don't know. You'd rather hire a guy who sat
on somebody's bench and you don't. And they called you
(31:18):
about him, they told you how Grady was, but you
have no real where It's like you're actually coaching, doing
the you know, the dirty work that at Division I
level assistanms most times do and building it and building
consistent winner. You know. So it's that part of it.
And I'm not being critical of I'm not being critical
(31:38):
of athletic director. We're painting what I say was a
real picture, like the real picture is like, look, it's
hard to take a risk. You don't know where that
guy is in his contract, what his relationship with the
president is. You know, every school has some you know,
different marching orders. But it is interesting that, you know,
ANAIA as as many good coaches that have come from there,
(32:00):
just don't see them going from an I an A
I A head coach to Division I head coach very often.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Yeah, it is, it's I think it is a rarity.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
And you know, I think when you look at some
guys that that have come from the NAI, it really
makes you right being at this level, makes you root
for their success, like, you know, like this year for instance,
I know Craig Doughty was hired at Houston Christian.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
You know he won a championship Graceland.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
I mean you look at guys like Ray Harper right
Jacksonville State. Uh, I mean he won a few national
titles at Oklahoma City. So yeah, I think there are
some examples, but yeah, you're right, there are definitely few
and far between.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah, No, it's it's it's interesting. If you could change
one thing about how you do business, you can change
one thing about college basketball from the ni A perspective
I put you in charge, what would be you know?
Speaker 3 (32:59):
I think.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
So for instance, for us, you know, we always could
play thirty regular season games, and then two years ago
that got shrunk down to twenty eight, again more compatible
to NCAA Division two, And so I would really try
to keep our identity at the NAI level, like right,
Like I think it needs to be different just because
(33:23):
you don't have the maybe the name recognition of being
at an NCAAA school. So like, why would we cut
games from thirty to twenty eight? Or you know, four
years ago NAI to one in Division two merged in
men's basketball, so now it's just one division, and so
scholarships went from eleven scholarships to eight, right, and so
(33:44):
like those are some changes that I don't necessarily think,
you know, are good for.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Our level.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Even today. Who do you look up to? Intention?
Speaker 4 (33:54):
You know, my mentor is a guy named Jim Siah
coached it, you know, it was a top assistant UCLA
for eight years and then was the interim head coach
at USC And man, I was really fortunate to learn
from from coach. I was young guy, twenty four years old,
and man, I'm sitting in his office the first thing
he says.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Coach, he says, Man, he said, let me help you.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
He said, if you, you know, want to make it
in this profession, be able to recruit.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
He says. If you if you can get players, you'll
always have a job. Right, So that's always uh right.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
Really really stuck with me. But you know, when you
look at him, man, he is just man, a great
human being. I think he does things the right way, man,
cares about people, and so yeah, I think being able
to learn from him really changed the whole trajector me
in my you know, my career.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Every time. Jimmy Side is a great dude. He's a
really really I did not expect that to be the name,
that to be the answer. Give me a player who
you feel like going through the process of playing for you,
go into one of your schools has forever changed them
for the better. That's like the stuff, the stuff that
(35:06):
you love to talk about. Give me one guy, you're like, man,
he came in. It was dicey and look at him now. Man.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
So when I was at Fresno Pacific, we were in
n ai school that went Division two, you know in California.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
We had a guy named John Taylor. So JOHNN.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
Taylor was the National JUCO Player of the Year at Mott. So, like,
you know, Purdue wanted the Michigan State wanted him, but
his academics were a train wreck, and so he had
to get like twenty four hours of summer school to
get eligible for US. And man, just when you look
at him, you know, he had the son when he
was really young, and he's had a great career playing overseas.
(35:47):
But man, he's a great dad, he's a great person.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Man.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
Just just seeing the success and he's had outside of basketball,
something that's you know, like you know, really touches me.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
That's why you do it right, Like, yeah, you do
it twin, but you do it because of that thing, right,
Like you were there a part of the life changing
process of college basketball for this guy who you know,
he's gonna whenever he stops playing, he has a head
start on everybody else and he has all these all
these great experiences, all these great experiences. Well, listen, I
(36:21):
really appreciate your time and having been around Langston for
probably twenty five years, what you've accomplished is unbelievable. I mean, truly,
truly unbelievable. I know you want to take that next
step and when the whole thing, I'm sure that's coming.
But man, I appreciate you joining me and I respect
how to what you've done.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Thank you so much, coach. I appreciate you having me.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Mine. Thanks so much to Chris Wright for joining me.
He's done a remarkable job at Langston. A reminder listening
to The Doug Gotlip Show daily three to five Eastern time.
We also have an hour pod only called in the
Bonus type in Doug gotliber every download podcasts wherever you
got this podcast, and you can get that one as well.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
I'm Doug Gotlieb. This is all ball h
Host
Doug Gottlieb
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