All Ball - George Washington HC Chris Caputo on Larrañaga Influence, George Mason + The U Final 4 Run

Doug is joined by new George Washington Head Coach Chris Caputo playing at NYC's famed Archbishop Malloy program, his first taste of the Final Four hotel lobby, how he got his first DI assistant gig at George Mason with Jim Larrañaga, his memories from the George Mason Cinderella Final Four run, and his 2nd run as a  Miami assistant, how he found out he got the George Washington job, and how he plans to put his unique imprint on the program.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey want to welcome in. I'm Doug Goli. This is
all ball, um and UH. Today's podcast, which I think
we're gonna be able to drop before the Final Four
or the National Championship game, begins his emin a lab
from New Orleans, Louisiana. Actually, I'm in the Superdome and

(00:26):
we're a couple of hours, I don't know, several hours
before tip off. So here's there's a there's a bunch
of different things that I want to get to. UM,
when you're in New Orleans, when you're at the Final four,
you get to catch up with old friends and um,
some old enemies. Right. You're like you're talking to everybody
in basketball, and frankly there's people from other sports here
as well. I had a smoothie with Troy Hawkins. Troy Hawkins,

(00:49):
he was nasty. It's nasty anyway. UM. And and there's
there's some things that jump out to me which should
be said. And the great thing and the response I've
gotten from all you about the podcast has been one
of the guests are great. And we have an awesome
guest for you today. And I will point out that

(01:09):
our guest today we we kind of ran out of
time to get into Kansas really because they did lose
to Kansas. I mean, I'm sorry about that one. That Oh,
that's a that's probably my bad. I think, actually right,
I should have gotten into Kands with him. That's okay.
Tell us he joined us and we'll breakdown. He can
break down the game and and tell you what what's what? Um.
Our guest today is Chris Caputo. Chris was most recently

(01:31):
the assistant assistant head coach at the University of Miami.
They of course lost in the lad eight to Kansas.
We'll talk a little bit about that Kansas game, but
mostly about his rise from a Division three player whose
dad had probably the most unique job anybody in the
eight tens debt. I don't know it really the guy's unique. Um,

(01:52):
he's really interesting. He's from Queens, then he went to
mass and then he went to George Mason, and then
he went to Miami and now he's at George Washington.
It really has been kind of seamless. And uh, he'll
he'll join me upcoming we'll talk about about his journey
to becoming named head coach of George Washington University late

(02:14):
last week and today is officially his first day on
the job, Marian will in Gotham. Let's let's let's discuss
all other things basketball wise. UM, I'm still kind of
like on a high from that Carolina Duke game. I
will caution people over this, it's the greatest college basketball

(02:37):
game I've ever seen. Like, you don't have to go
back that far in terms of people being in attendance
to see unbelievable final force with unbelievable ndings, right like
Virginia with a foul call in the corner on Auburn
in the National semifinal and then Texas Tech and Virginia
in the National championship game going to overtime. All that

(02:57):
was just uh. I guess three s sasons ago, right,
three seasons but that was the last Final four the
people attended UH in full attendance in Minneapolis. That was
before COVID. That was an unbelievable final four. Of course,
Chris Jenkins hit what I think is the biggest shot
in the history of American sports. UM as the buzzer
expires to win a championship was remarkable, incredible. So, I

(03:21):
mean I could go through all of the great games
recent and not so recent. This one was a great one.
This one also was very meaningful because it's Carolina Duke
in the tournament for the first time, Carolina Duke in
the final four, Mike Chefski's last game going against UM,
a guy who frankly played against Coach K and played

(03:42):
in the final four, and Hubert Davis. So I think
all those and then of course, to a slightly lesser extent,
having Kansas and Villanova blue Buds, new bloods whatever in
the final four, it all. It makes it for a
great storyline, a great game, and and something worthy of discussion. However, however,

(04:05):
I think it was a great game. I don't know
if it was the greatest game ever. It didn't come
down to the last second. The last thirty seconds were
kind of it's over. But let's give credit to North
Carolina who found a way to win a game in
which um they were down what one with a minute
and nineteen to go, and that's when Coach K called
the time out and tried to set his defense, put

(04:27):
Mark Williams in the game, and of course that's when
North Carolina hit cup more shots ended up winning a
national chance or playing for a national championship. I thought
that the adjustment of Hubert not really playing his bench
was big. Obviously, they play a completely different style than
the one that they previously played, so that's gotta be
a good portion of the reason why it took so

(04:47):
long for this team to hit. Um, they're a little
loose with the basketball, but it kind of works because
he gives them freedom and they have a ton of
self confidence. And I thought they got after it defensively.
I thought Brady Manic managed himself and get into foul
trouble early in the game, knowing paulabon Caro is gonna
come after him. Um, you know Duke and the foul

(05:09):
troubleside part of that is you have to adjust to
the officiating. You know, the the first game, there were
hardly any calls. I didn't like the second call on
David McCormick, and I thought that one put Villanova back
in the game because he had one foul and he
let his player go and lay the ball. In basketball,
I think it was Dixon and that should have been
shouldn't have been a foul. But if you watch that

(05:29):
game fairly tightly officiated early, the same could be set
for Carolina, and I think there was even more tightly
officiated in the Carolina Duke game because they knew they
wanted to let it get up and down and running.
But you can't do it until you loosen up the official,
loosen up the hand to hand comment. And the only
way to do that is to tightly offficiate the game early,
so that that's what I feel like happened with Duke

(05:50):
get into foul trouble. Um. Do I love that half
the Duke players walked off without shaking hands? No? Do
I think it's the end all be all? No? Do
I think there's some cute fusion there. And you lose
a game, it's your last game, and you're sad, you
just want to get out of the get out of
the place. Like I totally get. What I'm not gonna
do is I'm not gonna do the Mike Szchewsky bashing
like it really is on some level beneath so many

(06:15):
people in our industry. He's not no coaches perfect, not
as every decision he made was right, and I genuinely
believe that his presence was the biggest reason for the hype,
more so even than than the fact that there are
tribals separated by eight Miles, you know, play against each other,
so you know, I I thought they went to Boncarrell

(06:38):
a lot, probably could have gone a little bit more. Um.
I also thought that there there there was some room
there for some full core pressure that they didn't use.
Uh and I and I thought that Kansas and there
when it wasn't just about making shots, it was also
about the fact that you knew how Illanov was gonna play,
and they used that against Villanova to get open weak

(06:58):
side jump shots in the week side corner, and that
execution was brilliant. Kansas played, you know, in the conversation
and parts of their best game all season long. And uh,
you know, conversely, Villanova just not the same without Justin Moore. Meanwhile,
you got North Carolina Duke, and North Carolina played good
but great in the second half. The shot making by

(07:22):
Love and Manic was ridiculous. I thought bay Cots rebounding
was outstanding, and they just did a great job but
just being there and making Duke make shots over the top,
and Duke could not make enough of them. All right,
give you my National Championship preview upcoming, but first let's
get the new head coach of George Washington. Here's Chris Cabudo.

(07:46):
You're you're you're sitting there and this is your first
official day as a Division one head men's basketball coach.
What's sleeping been? Like? Um, you go you go to
sleep just like because you pass out, not not because
you have any scheduled sleep plans, you know. Uh, and

(08:09):
you wake up kind of with your mind racing, so
you just get up. Yeah, certainly not. You know, we're
not on the eight hour you know, health and wellness
sleep schedule, that's for sure. Um, was when did this
become the dream? When did this become like the goal?
Like do you do you remember the time when you
said yourself like, man, let me ahead basketball catch? Yeah? Um,

(08:34):
I got a good story for that, you know. For me?
The final four was in New York, YA. And I'm
you know, I'm a like JV player at that time
at archbish Boy High School in New York, which is
you know, I think you know this. I don't know

(08:55):
if the listeners you're famous sort of high school program
in New York City. Jack Current was my high school coach,
legendary coach in New York. He was winning his coach
in the state And uh, you know some of the names.
Kenny Anderson, Kenny Smith, Russ Smith. Uh, you know, Brian
Winners is a great player there. Kevin Joyce is the
captain of Olympic team UM. Cole Anthony was there the

(09:18):
most recently. Coach Larnaga played there. A lot of we
got it. It's a great program, a lot of here's
here's what you'll find. Okay, like this pod specifically, I
mean you do need to explain some things and you
contact or somethings. But but some some of you dort
some guys. You're a sophomore, Yeah, sophomore. So, uh, friend

(09:42):
of mine who's now a Division three head coaches, Hey,
the final I know nothing about, like what the medal?
I need a name? You need name? Guy ranked Cord.
He's the head coach of Western Connecticut State. You may
know him, but actually yeah, yeah, so we grew up
together the same block. And he says, hey, um, the
final fours in New York. Obviously, Hey, you want to

(10:04):
go down to the Hilton, like on sixth Avenue. UM,
and I have no idea what that means at this point,
right at sixteen years old, And uh, yeah, sure you know,
so you know I knew. I thought I maybe wanted
to coach. No, it probably wasn't good enough to be
a you know, pro play or anything like that. But
I go down there with guy. We kind of walk

(10:24):
around the hotel lobby and I'm like, wow, I see
coach k walking through the lobby. I see tark uh,
you know holding court, you know, at the at the
lobby bar a bunch of you know, people in coaching,
and you know, with their T shirts on, and you know,
polo shirts on and all the polos with the logos,
manolos with the logos, right, you know, probably don't know.

(10:46):
I'm trying to think ninety probably some pleaded khakis and
polos with jumps jumpsuits jump up. Uh. I remember seeing
Norm Roberts there, which is ironic, but Norman coached at
our high school as well as an assistant coach. He
was at Oral. Roberts I believe that, you know, at
that time it maybe just getting ready to go to Tulsa.

(11:07):
So uh, that was cool to see him somebody who
had who had been you know, associated with our with
our program. And anyway, I walked out and I said, man,
this is like really cool, Like I want to do
this someday I want to walk around with a polo
and a logo on my shirt, you know. And uh,
it got me thinking about coaching as a career. And
then ironically, ten years later, I'm coaching in the Final

(11:30):
four at the right page of or whatever. So I
guess it was twenty five. But you know that that's
kind of been a simple moment for me, like to
think about No, No, I know, No, it was just
sort of like, you know, all the all the stuff
that you know young guys do now walking around that lobby.

(11:51):
I was kind of doing that at sixteen, almost as
an innocent bystander, as a civilian. Yeah. And then, uh,
you know, I look back on anytime you get a
tough day, you look back and say, man, how about that, Like,
you know, I go from that lobby in ninety six
to coaching in it in two thousand six. I'm pretty lucky. Yeah,
I mean, you've never been that lobby needing a job.

(12:14):
That's that's that's another reason why you're lucky. But it's
it's funny because the lobby is is really so My dad,
my late father was like all lobby team right, like
he was. He loved he loved that, but I, um,
it's funny because that it has a it can have
a mixed effect on you. When I'm when I was

(12:35):
a kid, the pot four and you'd see that and
be like, man, this is the coolest thing ever. Look
at these guys like gods and they walked by, you know,
your dad, and they talked to you. And then you
get older and being in broadcasting, Uh, it can scare
the Bejesus out of you. You know. Where you sit
there and go like because because I'm trying to think

(12:57):
where I think you might have been used in. I
think it might have been Houston. When I remember I, um,
I interviewed for a job and I was you know,
broadcasting and CBS at the time, and I'm texting their
friends and they're like do you want this? And I
was like yeah. They're like, you really wanted to get

(13:19):
into coaching. I was like yeah. And then you walk out,
you walk into lobby and you see there's a thousand
dudes that are not the head coaches, that need a
job and that have the resume in hand, and they're
just trying to bump into somebody who's gotta got a
spot up. Hey, I got a player for you, coach,

(13:39):
I haven't heard that one. How many how many calls
texts in the last twenty four hours? I got a
player for you, coach, M many many, many more. And
so it's a it's a it's a it's a real thing. Okay,
So you're you're in high school? Ixpished? We want parents?
Do you know my dad unique? My mom's a nurse.

(14:04):
That's you know, not unique. She wasn't nurse. My dad
is a fifty year jazz musician in New York City,
believe it or not. Jazz flute. But what what you no? No, yeah,
well he does play jazz flute, but no, like all
the sacks, clarinet, flew all the woodwinds. So he um,
you know, super unique career, kind of like kind of
like coaching unique career. Fox Sports Radio has the best

(14:27):
sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our
shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the
I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. Right, So,
so you have a passion for basketball, he's a jazz musicisan.
Did he get it? You know? I think he didn't.

(14:47):
They didn't necessarily get basketball, like they weren't necessarily fans
or anything like that. But I think that they got
the idea that like, hey, you should just do do
what you want to do. You know. Uh, if is
what you want to do, you go chase that. And
you know, we're not going to be judgmental of uh
you know, maybe what would appear to be a flaky career.

(15:09):
But but it was. It was like in high school,
did you tell them this is what you want to do. Yeah,
I mean I thought, um, you know, I was like
a finance major, but I didn't. I wasn't like a
great student, didn't really have too much passion for it.
Um I did. Uh. I did a couple of internships,
uh you know, like uh in the in the world

(15:32):
of business in New York City, and as I was
doing them, I quickly understood like, yeah, this is not
for me, Like I would much prefer to you know, uh,
be be around basketball, go to AU tournaments, you know,
work camps stuff that Division three players do, you know,
like just try to be around the game. And so,

(15:53):
you know, for me, it was it was trending that
way pretty hard, you know, throughout college like this, this
is what I'm gonna do, you know, your West Westfield State,
right Westfield State in Massachusetts. Yeah, who's the coach, Rich Sutter?
Who's still the coach now? Uh, he's Uh, he's a
great coach. He I was like in his first class there.

(16:14):
He was an assistant at Colgate with a Donald Foyle
and um, you know he's actually done a really good
job there and kind of the defense and consistency now
to be in one of the better teams in the
mass CAC which is like the Massachusetts State League. You know,
Tom Thiboeau was at Salem State, Paul Bacardi Salem State. Uh,
Tommy Moore from Yukon was at Worcester State. So what's

(16:39):
a lot of guys, Yeah, exactly what's starting up? So
it was a it was a fun lead tofiliance. So
so so Jackline, what was special about him as a coach?
What what what can you take from your high school coach,
a legendary coach and say like yeah, this is what
what what made him? What made a special? Yeah? I think, um,

(17:01):
you know, like obviously it's a great coach, you had
great players, everything, but the the idea that he built
a you know, for lack of a better cliche, family, community, brotherhood,
whatever you want to call it. Uh, you know that
was so present at our school. You know, guys obviously
when I got there, he'd been doing it a long time.

(17:22):
So you have guys that played for him in the
sixties and the seventies that were back all the time
and coming to the office and seeking counsel. And he
was picking up the phone constantly and doing things for
the guys to try to help them. And um, you
know that, that, for me, is what I thought coaching
was like. I didn't think It's probably why I stayed
with coach Linega for twenty years and going that two places.

(17:45):
I've told people, you know that that's what I envisioned
coaching to be. I didn't. I didn't understand the business
side of it that you know, Hey, it's not always
like this. You don't get to stay at the same
place for fifty years. It kind of have all the
guys around all the time. And uh, I was fortunate
enough to be a part of that and see that,
and I strive to sort of maybe find that somewhere

(18:06):
and uh, and then you know, you get in your
realize well that's exactly how it works in college coaching.
So when you're at lest field. What do you remember
was it about in terms of practices and games? You know,
like you mentioned guys, what what can you take away
from your experience? I think I think the guy. Yeah,
I mean, first sure, you know, I had a great experience. Um,

(18:28):
you know, you know we were divisioned three players, but
I thought we worked really hard. You know, we were
serious about our game and our and our team and
and uh now looking back twenty years of being Division one,
it's very funny. You know, you get especially in that
league because obviously Massachusetts is not a huge state, you know, geographically,
so we would like get on the bus, the women

(18:49):
around the bus, the women's team is gonna play. We're
gonna play. We drive to Salem State, drop the women off,
we get five bucks, we go you know, at pizza.
We get back. The women are playing. We're watching like
the first half, it's halftime. We go in, we get ready,
we play, everybody gets back on the bus afterwards, drives back.

(19:10):
It's all in the same day. I mean, it's you know,
having been on a million charter flights now it's done.
All the things that you know you do when you're
at the A C. C. For eleven years, and uh,
it reminds me not to complain about anything because it's
certainly Uh, everyone in Division three is sort of doing
it for the love of the game for real. You know,

(19:31):
how good? What is it? Your best season was what's year?
You know? We are my junior year, we had turned
the program around and it got to like fIF We're
bad when I got there. Uh, we had turned the
program around fifteen and eleven, I think, And now we're
like we have a first team All League player at
the Rookie of the Year coming back and a really
good core and then both of that has got who

(19:52):
is who is your study? Um, Bryant James is a guy.
He was He was an unbelievable athlete underside to cool.
Division three was like six three but like a power
forward that was world class athlete. Um and uh, but
both of those guys get get hurt my senior year,
so then we go back into the tank. But I'm

(20:14):
proud to say that I left it better than I
found it, because like they've got have been really good
since I left. So the coolest gym in the masket,
coolest you know, it's funny, kind of like ours is
a bandbox when I played that. It was like a
legit high school gym. Now every gym in the league
has has really you know, it's kind of like in

(20:35):
that late nineties early two thousands, everybody kind of did
a rec center that became the D three sort of arena.
But at that time I think ours was probably it
was the bandbox like hot you know, it could be
snow all over the place outside, but it was like
degrees it felt like inside. And it was certainly in recruiting.
It's not something you would walk anybody through like, yeah,

(20:57):
this is where we play. It was evil when they're
when they're packed, when you're packing, in fact, it's fun. Yeah,
there's no doubt, nothing like it. And then you started
dunking in one up because you're like you're, um, okay,
so so you get done you graduate. Um yeah, but
so it's funny. I always tell the story and uh,

(21:18):
you know this is remember we used to have to
do homework in like the computer lab, right, like for
the most part, like, yeah, you have to be in
the computer lab. You weren't. Some guys maybe had something
in their room, you know, a big you know, hard
hard drive computer, what have you. But you know, I'm
like in the computer lab checking my email. It's not
on my phone or anything like that. I had been
in correspondence with coach Linagan again because of our Malloy connection,

(21:42):
and I'd see him, I'd go to AU events and
things like that, and he was really nice to me
in early days of sort of emailing people back and forth.
And Uh. I get an email from him and it's like, hey,
I got a job opening assistant coach. I need you
to apply for it. My first thought is like, wow,
this is like easy, right. You just go from being
like a bad Division three player to being like an

(22:04):
assistant coach at a pretty good mid major program and
got a couple of state tournaments in recent times. So
to apply for the job. And he tells me to
call him. I call and and says, hey, look, I
wanted you to apply. You're not getting the job, all right,
but but I want to maybe bring you down in
a volunteer role, and so I wanted you to apply
so I could at least talk to you, you know,
state state rules or whatever you know. So I'm a

(22:26):
little deflated at this point because I was I got
ahead of myself thinking maybe I'm gonna get a job,
you know. And basically what he says is, Hey, look
like I can't hire in the third spot. You're you know,
you have no qualifications. But I like you. I want
to give you a shot. I'm going to hire somebody
else and maybe bring you down as a volunteer. Would
you do it? I say yes, having no idea like

(22:48):
how much anything costs or anything like that. So he
hires Eric Cockle, who's got a head coach of Tulsa,
who's a great friend of mine obviously was gonna join
me this week, by the way, with yeah, yeah, yeah
you can you can ask Yeah, there you go. Yeah. So, uh,
and you can't find guys that are too you know, different, uh,
and yet great friends in the sense that Air grew

(23:10):
up like a town like two hundred people in Amer's Wisconsin,
and I'm from Queens, you know. And and so he
as Eric Conkle and who had been a g A
I think at Tennessee at that time. Uh, and myself
as a volunteer. I tell my parents, I got like
an unbelievable opportunity. You can't believe this division one really
good program, you know, Okay, like this, how much does

(23:31):
it pay? Like, well, nothing you're paying like and so
and this is what they've been paid for college to.
Right less of course, right of course, right and and
and you know we weren't wealthy people or anything, but
we were able to trick it somehow and make it work.
You know. So, Um, I go down and Eric finds,

(23:51):
in fact, he mentioned it to me this week. Uh,
he had to find the Fairfax, Virginia is a very
very wealthy you know, it's a but like Orange County,
you know, like it's a nice place, a lot a
lot of wealth. Um and uh he found the worst
apartment complex humanly possible, because we knew we were, you know,
making no money. He found the worst department complex possibly.

(24:13):
It was like definitely you know, fifties sixties like towers. Uh, brutal, brutal,
brutal place. But so we, uh we move in there.
We're splitting the rent and uh, I mean were really
you know, have no money. And so he's like, I
have a friend that's like thinking about coming down now.

(24:35):
And he's like, you know, hey, what would you mind
if I like stay with you guys? Just Eric, like
we can cut the rent now again if if he
like sleeps on our couch, so you know, had that happen,
so we any any memory what the rent was. You know,
it wasn't like cheap cheap cheap, because again Fairfax is
kind of an expensive place, but it might have been

(24:58):
like a two bedroom that might have been like a
thousand bucks or something like that, eight bucks, and so
we were just trying to find every way we could
too just slice it. We eventually also had somebody live
in our dining room, another guy friend of ours, so
we got were these utilities, you know, like friends of
mine from Massachusetts that you know, they were in and out.

(25:21):
I wouldn't say they were there forever, but you know,
I think Eric, Eric's a smart guys economical. We understood,
you know, the finances of it that we could, uh,
we could cut the cost tremendously, and you know, after
a year after year, he was gone as he had
gotten engaged kind of almost like when we got there.
So it was only a year deal, but it was
we had a lot of laughs. So so you get

(25:43):
there and what what is uh what was it like?
What what is Jim Larniga like to a guy who
counter recruit the coach? But you're making nothing? Yeah, every
one of these guys and and Blarnegan been doing a
long time. But it was, you know, pretty final for Laryega.

(26:04):
You know, everybody evolves a little bit. What was it like, Yeah, yeah,
I mean first for me. He always He reminded me
the other day he said, he remember the first thing
I told you? I said, Yeah, you called me and said, hey,
look I don't you don't delegate to me. I delegate
to you, said he can we do this? Can you
help me with this one? And say, Chris, I delegate

(26:25):
to you. You don't delegate to me. Okay, but well
it was just an incredible experience to be around the
staff was it was incredible. Uh. We had obviously coach
who's the best, Bill Courtney, who was actually you know
it was with us here at Miamis past a couple
of years, but had been the head coach of Cornell
Mike Gillian, had been the head coach of Longwood, who's

(26:47):
at i MG now. And then obviously Eric who who
had been at Tennessee and kind of gotten exposed to
the high level and uh for a few years as
a g A. So for me, a guy who you know,
I think had a lot of hash it for it.
There was so much I could pick up and learn
from from those guys. And I always joked that they
never gave me. Coach never gave me anything that was
like super important. Yes you know you didn't. You didn't

(27:10):
trust me, you know, but what he did was, uh,
I crafted my own job a little bit. Back then,
the rules were a little bit different. So obviously I
helped Derek do everything he was doing, um, you know, film, exchange,
video stuff, all that U. But then also like back then,
I was the director of underclassmen recruiting, so it was,

(27:31):
you know, they were working on the guys that were
trying to get in that class and I was working
a list of younger guys. And as you know, you know,
the d m V has got so many good players,
so um, at that time, you know a lot of
the guys that I started with on that first year
of kind of like I was able allowed to talk
to their high school coaches things like that. They turned
out to be a couple of guys in our final

(27:52):
four team. I was also back then, if you remember Doug,
we could work camps. It was they kind of had
changed that rule back so like I would be working
Eastern Invitational for Rob Kennedy. I've done that as as
a college player, but now I'm doing it as a
George Mason staffer. And a lot of the guys were
recruiting a lot of high school and AU coaches that
we were, you know, in our area. They were working

(28:14):
the camp and kids were playing in the camp. So
I've got a lot of exposure to to the area
doing that. And then, um, I just learned. You know,
you think you know a lot as a player, and
then you get and you see inside what guys are doing. Like, jeez,
I don't know anything, you know, So I learned a lot.
Um that was two oh three, right, two or three?

(28:35):
That John there is senor senior year? What what what?
What's what was the interaction like between coach and player,
dad and son. Yeah that's unique as well. Yeah, Yeah,
it was great because coach and he you know, Jay
had played for him as well at poland Green, so
I think they had gotten to drill down. Um, we

(28:57):
had a just an okay year. We had a bunch
of injuries and John John wound up like playing the
point he was like a point forward, uh, and he
had a very good year. We had and and you know,
given the injuries, we had a good year and not
a great year. Uh, but you certainly that they were
pros at it, you know what I mean, like because
he had done it with Jay and he kind of

(29:17):
learned that part of it. And John was older in
his fifth year, he had red shirted the first year,
so it was you know, it was really to be honest,
it was pretty impressive how they interacted because, uh, they
kind of knew the drill, you know, how to how
to approach it, you know, on the court, in the office,
in the locker room there was it was player coach
and then you certainly because I was around you know them,

(29:38):
and outside of that you'd see you know, the father's
son piece as well, so that you know, professional is
what I would say. Really well done. Um the program.
And it's interesting because the program that you guys left
very different than the program that you arrived and that
you arrived and right and in those two through well
they were they were good. Yeah yeah, But but what

(30:01):
in terms of support in terms of fanfare was was
it like in that year? Okay? Yeah, I think Eric
and I, uh that was around the time Good to
Great came out and Eric and I used to joke,
you know, kind of like ha huh um. Yeah, we
we took it from good to great, but we got there,
you know, like we you know, it was good and

(30:22):
we got it great. But no, I think that it
was I'll tell you this that when you take a
job as a young person and you just want to
get in, right, you have no idea what you're walking into.
You know, you just don't know. I mean just especially
as a guy who's playing Division three and like, hey,
I want to be in Division one. I'll go anywhere

(30:43):
for me to be as fortunate to go into a
program with one of the type of people. But then
also that they were winning, that there was some momentum
they're now looking back, you can't even put a price
on that, right because I was not there to turn
it in. I was there with program was in great
shape in two thousand two and sort of getting ready
to go on a little bit of a run again.

(31:05):
And then um, yeah, obviously we go to we go
to the Sweet sixteen of the n I t we
lose out an Oregon, which I'm so happy I got
to see matc Court. Uh did you go out? Did
you play out there? Ever, I'm sure I have apart story. Ever,
tell me, go ahead, give it to me. I just
told this one in the lobby. I told it to

(31:29):
Chris Beard. And who else was I talking to? Rodney Terry,
A couple of coaches around and this is my this
is my story. So in UM nineteen right, so years ago, UM,

(31:49):
I was. I was in my my gap year, right,
So I went to Nottre Dame. I left and I
was I was thinking about transferring. Get they get in
trouble and I have to leap. But instead of transferring
right away, which I could have done, I sat out
a year so I play. I didn't play. I was
worked out with the with Golden West where I went

(32:11):
to school, and the head coaches Tom McCluskey. Tom was
my high school freshman year. So I got to practice
UM all year and just be scout team dude, just
trying to kill dudes, and then coaches would come in
they were recruiting me. They come and watched me work out,
and uh, you know, the jaris like locked the door
and did like a three coaches. But so so I'm

(32:39):
going to my visits during the season because you know,
I think I always thought in the hindsight early signing
is unless you and now it might be different because
now they tell HI, just take whatever, because so high
school recruiters are hard. But I feel like everything so
many things change in that one season, right, so many things,

(33:03):
like very because I remember I signed at Notre Name,
but I basically committed in October and then you signed
November and then they start playing old season. Everything changes, Yeah,
I mean now even more so. So I go my visits.
So I visited Ogloma State on a on a Wednesday,

(33:23):
and then I'm visiting Oregon on a Thursday, and my
uncle Mastate is it gets kind of wonky because of travel.
So I was, I wasn't there very long, and well,
there's nothing special about the visit, to be honest. Um,
So I land in Eugene and I go to mac Court.
And my dad in the late in the mid eighties
had been a volunteer assistant after you got fired at

(33:45):
uh Long Beach State at Oregon State, and he always
told me about mac Court and he was like, it's
the only place I've ever been that during the game,
it shakes right, the question the baskets shaped because and
it's of course these at organ states. It's a big
private so um so I go there. They're playing Arizona
and this spear, the Arizona one in arizona's one of

(34:07):
the best players. Miles Simon, he's we've been boy had friends.
We played together since. So the staff was and it's
interesting that you had a couple of internships in the
world of Wall Street because Tad Boyle was done the
staff and he had worked in business right and Mark
Terzan other system staff was his dear friend from Kansas

(34:29):
and he had gotten him to be a coach. And
then Darren Kaylish was the other assistant. And Darren had
coached against me when he coached your team of VA.
So I know all these guys and they're like, man,
you're gonna love it. K Jared Green's coach. Jerry's a
North Carolina guy. So that means you called the point guard,
calls the offenses, calls defenses, subs himself in and out

(34:50):
of the game, and I'm like that sounds good. So
here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna sit right, beh
hid because uh and at that time when you went,
they had renovated it so that there were chairs on
the lower level I believe, yeah, I think so. Yeah.

(35:11):
So before where the players sat. Where the players sat
in nine seven, they're playing Arizona. They beat Arizona. The
players sat on benches in the front row with a
little pad, and then they had me sit literally with
my knees behind the player. So I'm not up in
a you know, like sometimes that you put a cup
pretty girls around a guy, you know, or you put

(35:33):
somebody somebody an advisor something around with their parents are
with them or whatever. So I'm sitting there and I'm like,
this is amazing, basically like part of the team. Here's
the problem, though, Um, I'm not sure you want a
guy down kind of mid bench when Jared Green is
wheeling guys in and out because Jerry's like he's subbing

(35:54):
like crazy, He's that Carolina deal. So every time he said,
as a guy out there, all motherfucker, like this fucking guy,
why did you take me out? He didn't know he's doing.
We're gonna win in spite of him, Like guys just thought,
you know, And I mean, I love Kenyan Wilkins was
their point guard and he was right. He didn't like

(36:16):
he told no lies. Guy took him something out of game.
Guy called the offense. They win. They listen to me,
they win the game. The students carried Jerry Green while
I'm sitting there going this place is amazing. But they
hate the coach and they didn't hate him. It's just
the snapshot of sometimes gonna be careful, right, Yeah, I

(36:38):
mean guys bitching on the bench, right, because the guys
bitching on the bench are bitching because they're on the
bench for no other reason. But it was a real
kind of weird, sort of a little bit of a
turn off, even though I was turned completely onto the program,
the coaches and everything else that's anyway. The place was unbelievable,

(36:58):
just top up five, top five environments in the sport
and kind of a cathedral that unfortunately it is it built. Um,
I know a little bit too much about that place.
It's actually all wood. I was like, why would you
do that? Like, no, no, it's all wood. It's basically
a fire hazard. It's the belief, you know, it's Oregon.

(37:19):
We just when they built it, they went out and
they got trees from Oregon. It's all wood. Is it
still there? It's still it's still there. It's still very
much there. Um, but they don't play basketball games there
and instead now they have this right shiny new place
that nobody really likes and it's an amazing the new
Matt Court is and Matt Court is a new one,

(37:40):
right Matthew United Arena whatever is an awesome place, but
it just does not have the personality of that court anyway. Okay,
so you guys go together, so yeah, so we got
to Yeah, so so that was that was, you know,
a great year. We I think we have won the
most games in school history that year, and then um
didn't next year. We've got a young group, uh you know,

(38:03):
has a lot of now familiar names, but we were
like a nondescript team, uh, typical of a young team.
Very We're talented offensively, we could score, not a great
defensive team. And then we come into two thousand five. Okay,
so so let's this is my favorite thing. My favorite
thing with Final four teams is this kind of magical

(38:27):
how it all comes together with the roster, right, like
I love to I love to tell people so like
the like our roster was when we went to Elight
eight was was unique. And then I always love Coach
Sutton's last Final four team and oh four was like

(38:47):
I mean, it just was meant to be, like like
Joe and basically showed up with Ted Owens in the summer.
They were doing like a tour trying to see these
two kids from Central Florida transferring and like who we
find in both scholarship right, and John Lucas only gets
there because of the what happened at Baylor. That's right,
that's right, right, and they and there's two other point

(39:08):
guards they were supposed to get they didn't get, and
they took John Lucas late. Like things come together. So
help me with how that team kind of came together. Okay,
so let's start with Ji Lewis. Yeah, classic undersized load,
he's like six six to seventy, right something like that. That. Yeah,

(39:32):
that would be on you on one of his light days. Yeah,
but were you was he I'm trying thinking, oh six
was his senior year? So yeah, year was when you
were there? Yeah, No, I forgot exactly how this happened.
Was his freshman year? Was my senior year in college?
And then I kind of became um the guy that

(39:55):
chased him around. Uh he was he's a great guy.
I mean, he's he's awesome. No, no, no, it was
like it was like you know, g I was like, um,
you know, hey, go get Giant at the dorms, get
him on the golf card, bring him over here. He
doesn't want to go. You know that type of stuff
at that at that time, you know that's good. Oh yeah,

(40:17):
yeah yeah, coach love the golf car. Yeah we um.
I said that the we did like a black tie
thing for the final four that year, and he said, hey,
I want to thank computer and like, you know, if
he didn't have any hair before me, so don't blame
me for the lost hair, you know, like that type
of thing. So um. But no, he was he he
had gotten the main central played um not for Max

(40:41):
because I think he played for the next guy, Mark Um.
And then uh it was from Aberdeen Proving Grounds, which
was up north to Baltimore. Is a military family and
there's a base up there north near work cal Ripkens
from and so he he was like on the all
Rooky team. And then you know, the one thing I
would tell don't you appreciate this is anytime somebody had

(41:02):
like a undersized load like that, they would say I
got the next gin Lewis and we would say that,
I'm like, guy, like, you gotta understand this guy's was.
I had like a seven four wings some crazy wingspan.
He was incredibly quick, he was all state lacrosse player.
He had hops, he had handles, like there's videos of
this guy doing things that guys that are six six

(41:25):
or six five ninety pounds like cannot do. You know,
Sometimes people would say, like some great athlete is a freak,
like Gi Lewis was a freak. No, I get it,
I get it, I tell you it. Okay, Tony Skin
Tony obviously, Yeah, Tony's become a major player as an
assistant coach in college. Right, Um, and I want to

(41:48):
get to the Tony skin incident, which I remember, and
I'm sure you remember. Let's not give it a age
just yet. Okay, and Tony skins there when you get there.
What was he like? He was great? Um, Bill and
Eric had gone up to see him at junior college.
He he had. Tony went to Blend Junior College in Texas.

(42:08):
I think he got homesick halfway to semesteran Newton school. Yeah, yeah,
went went went I think halfway to the semester. Was
like an honest guy and told the coach a look like,
I'm kind of homesick. I think I'm gonna go back
to junior college in Maryland and h the guy basically
didn't play him then after that, like your quitting, So
he didn't play. I don't think he had like stats, righting.

(42:31):
So he goes to Hagerstown Community College. Uh. He was
friends with Jason Mskia guy who was a really good
player George Mason on the tournament team. And Bill and
Eric went up there and saw him and you know,
kind of you watched him and he was really good.
And he came up to him and said, look like,
not only will I come to George Mason, but I'll

(42:52):
sit out here so I have three years. And that
was like, wow, that's it's unbelievable. Sidebar at we're recruiting
the Sheer Mason, who's the coach at Wagner now, who's
done an unbelievab job, who was a hell of a
player at Drexel. Tough dude. Mike Gillie and I go
to pick up the Sheer Mason in Newark from St.

(43:12):
Benedict's and we're driving him to George Mason for the
official visit and as we get to the office, Tony's
coming out of coach's office having committed. So it was
like the Sheer's visit. And again the Sheer might have
chose Drexel no matter what, but the visit was over
like the minute we got there. Just Tony decided to
just coming. So was and they battled those guys. I

(43:32):
think they both knew it, and they battled each other
for years. You know. Uh, Butler just the ultimate you
know PG County. You know, everybody talks about how good
PG County was the Oxy Hill High School. He's probably
you know, just DC guy, great shooter, great family, great personality.

(43:56):
Uh he was, you know, the guy was. He was
like Mr George Mason, he should be like the mascot
there during his time, it was he was. He was
all over the place, you know, in the media as well.
Will Thomas um just an NBA player that happened to
be six six and not like six ten if he

(44:18):
was six ten in the NBA for you know, fifteen years.
He still plays in the EuroLeague. He's uh played at
Mount St. Joe's High School for Pat Clashy great program
in Baltimore. I think you remember his claim to fame
as they beat Rudy Gay like seven times in his
in his career, they battled, they were rivals, and Will's
team always won. Uh. He was just just an incredible competitor.

(44:40):
Is to this day still play it a little more.
Florine Campbell. Yeah, Follower Campbell was. You know, it's funny.
We were talking about this the other day. He was.
He was on even the one guy that might have
been like a little bit more recruited. Those guys were
all recruited that you know, mid to high mid major level,
but Follower and was a guy like Georgetown was recruiting

(45:00):
hard and they took somebody else. Um, But Doug, you
remember there was a five eight rule you could you
could only sign five in one year and eight in
two years. I think, yeah, I think it was eight
and two and you can only do five and one.
And I think for us, like other than Georgetown who
decided on someone else, I think a couple of the

(45:23):
other schools in the area where Followers was would have
been recruited and would have stayed close. That rule came
into play back then. I mean, guys, are we used
to be asking all the time, like hey, how many
how many did Virginia signings year, Yeah, because they couldn't
do it. It's it is it is interesting that these
kind of one off, two off rules that you know,

(45:44):
I remember, here's here's one I was. I was very
close to transfer in Utah at the same year I
was talking about before, and they used people forget not
only proper forty eight, but in ninety shakes right right,
AT's very started ninety seven. They passed rule that if
you're a PROP forty eight and you graduated on time,

(46:06):
you get that year back. Right. Andre Miller was a
PROP forty eight. So I was gonna go to Utah
and uh literally I was. It was like two days
before my visit to Utah and Rick called me because
Rick's thing was like, hey, I'd come and play with
in the backcourt with Andre for a year and then

(46:27):
I'd take over for two years. Right, And then he
called his you know there's a new old rule. Uh
you know, look, we I want you, but you know
it'll be you and and Andre for two years. Because
I was like, well, he's he staying for He's like, yeah,
he's gonna stay. So yeah, so you get that year back,

(46:48):
and that I think I'm McFarland at Oklahoma State. That
was a big reason that he played in the final
four year anyway. So yeah, there's those really weird one
off rules. Okay. And then by the way, that's going
on now with you know, COVID year and all that.
Yeah eight ah you have doctors and and the guys

(47:08):
that can get okay. So um, so that year, Okay,
there's a lot that people remember about that year. My
memory is a little a little different. I remember, you
guys are really good. You had there's like an eight
game winning streak there in the CIA. Remember the CIA

(47:29):
was really really competitive. Yeah. Um, but what was the
what was it like in oh six in terms of
the tournament, Like, did you guys think, hey, we can
be it at large? Because I just don't remember yeah,
really being a conference that produced multiple nz A tournament teams, right.

(47:52):
But um, and so this is like my third year
or at ESPN and we're covering stuff. I remember like
the names of the CIA teams coming up up. So
what was it like in the in the moment? Well, yeah,
I think we had been the first at large bit
in like twenty years or something, you know there, and uh, um,
there was no our r P I was good. Obviously,

(48:15):
we we were. We go out to Wichita State back
in the bracketbuster days and win at which State with
Turge and Tad were there, and that was that was
a hell of that was that was a hell of
a win, you know. And if you remember back then,
I think like the Valley was getting multiple teams in
five teams like some crazy number, you know. And so

(48:38):
for us to go into like late February, we knew
we were obviously having a great conference season, but for
us to go late February into Wichita State, who's in
first place and the hardest, hardest place to play in
the Valley, and and go beat them, you start to
feel like a little bit like we should be in
right like no matter what, we should be in. But

(48:59):
there was no history to say that that would happen.
And then obviously we los the Hofstra. Okay, so but
you had that year you guys in Hostra they were worse, Yeah,
they were. They were wars. And what I remember is, now,
did you lose the Hofstra twice in the last ten

(49:20):
days of the season when he lost in the regular
season and he lost in the semifinals, Yes, um, But
then Tony what Tony did a nut shot? He did
that shot. It was a little frustrated, Yeah, he was.
He was a little frustrated. He hit Lauren Stokes. Uh
and uh, ironically, I think they wanted to play on

(49:41):
the same NBA Summer League team, like yes, two years
two years later, and Tony was like, you know, jeez,
I can't get away from Laura. And then they were
laughing about it, you know. But so you guys, so
you lose in the semis and you know, and you're like,
I did you know? I got a good coaching story, right,
So I'm miserable. We go back to the hotel room.

(50:04):
We're in Richmond, probably my least favorite arenas the Richmond
Colisseum where the damn tournament was all the time there.
It was like a VCU home game every time we
played them there. But uh, James Johnson, who's uh now
at NC State, was the head coach of Dutech was
on staff at the time. Were roommates, and you know,
we're both just like I cannot believe this, Like, not

(50:26):
only did we lose and we're not probably gonna be
the tournament, but they'll look at us as a team
that shouldn't be in the tournament because Tony's not gonna
play because he's gonna be suspended. So that was the thought. So,
which is what we all thought. Yeah, I mean, I'm
young the time, and I'm like, I don't know, Like,
how do you not factor that in that it's not

(50:47):
their best guard isn't going to play in the first round,
you know? And I go ahead, I'm sorry, yeah, no.
So so we drive back to um. Uh, we drive
back to uh Fairfax. I definitely slept in the office
that night. I was just miserable. I didn't want to
go home. I just fell asleep on the couch. I
woke up. I went recruiting in New England. Just I'm

(51:11):
getting out of here, and uh, we're recruiting for a
day or two. I get back and James was recruiting
a guy who wanted up coming, who was a very
good player for US Andre Smith, who was from Houston,
Drey Smith. But he was at Coacheese. I don't know.
You may know Jerry Corio coach. He is a great
junior coach. And in Arizona he was playing for Jerry

(51:32):
and they were in their regional finals or whatever, and
James got sick. He got like the flu whatever something
where he was like, dude, I cannot get go to Arizona.
I'll go. I don't want to be around here. This
is crazy, right, I'll leave. Yeah, yeah, exactly, I'll leave
the funeral. I'll got so again. I'm literally home like

(51:53):
a couple of hours, and I'm like volunteering to jump
on the Southwest flight to Tucson. Now, little do I know,
you know, like O Cheese is not in Tucson. It's
like now two hours in the desert on the Mexican border.
And uh, I get there, and you know, Dane optins there.
They're recruiting him a couple of the Brian fish from Craton.
It was kind of like us in Creton. I think
there might have been one or two more Mississippi State. Um.

(52:16):
So I basically spent like three or four days in
Arizona watching those guys, are just trying to get my
mind away from it. And and then uh, I fly
back on selection Sunday in the morning. My my wife, Uh,
then girlfriend, uh we're talking on the phone and she's
looking on the computer bracketology and we're not in you know.

(52:38):
And then I call somebody else, and you know I
was talking about yeah, just like the Pracketologist morning, you're
not in. And then uh, I'm like, you know, going
to the I don't know. I guess to get a
cab or pick up my cart the lot drive it
back because I'm gonna go to Coach El's house for
this miserable selection Sunday event. And my wife Julie calls

(53:00):
and says, hey, I just refreshed this. Leonardi's got you in,
And I'm like, Nardi doesn't have a stand. You're looking
at something. Maybe it did an update. Maybe you're looking
at something for like a week ago where we're you know,
we just said this, we're not in, And uh, she
says no, I'm telling you. It says like the time
stamp of like two minutes ago you're in. So I'm like, Julie,

(53:21):
I don't yeah, I don't know. If I don't know
if he had he had he had a might have
had a mole, he had my animals. So I called
somebody else. I think Dan Steinberg from the Washington Post,
whos are beating right up, like, Dan, can you just
pull this up? I looked at this like a half
hour ago we were out we in now, and he's like,
pulls it up, because dude, you're in. So now I
go from being like Mr. Miserable stoic, how am I

(53:45):
going to deal with this? I show up at the
house like we're in, and people look at me like
I'm crazy, Like no, I'm just telling you we're in.
We're good. There's no reason for him to change that
at the eleventh hour like that. And then and then obviously, uh,
you know, we get in. The most relieved person in
the in the building was Tony Skin because certainly he
didn't he was feeling the way of the world on him.

(54:07):
But then you won without him. That we won without him.
Gabe Norwood played great. Uh, you know, he really played
great in that game. You know, we had a little
bit of history at Michigan State. We had played them,
uh two years earlier, you know, a year earlier in
d C they had gone to the final four. But
we had a pretty good game sixty six sixty uh,
and we had a little bit of confidence there. Some

(54:29):
of their better players from that team were gone a
little bit younger, so we pulled it off. And then
we played Carolina and the next one two years before that,
that Tony Lamar gizz group. You know, I guess it
was their sophomore year. They were we were up at
half at Carolina and Big. It was like seven, like

(54:50):
a we just no defense. Everyone was getting buckets. But uh,
there was a little bit of confidence. They're like, hey,
we played against those guys because that was felt maybe
cans they had won an national championship the next year,
those guys were gone. It was Handsborro and Danny Green
and guys so great players, but our guys have felt
like a little bit of confidence hadn't taken a lead

(55:10):
there two years earlier. So, um, when this is this
is always fun one when you do if you remember
back to the bracket, did you honestly like think like, Okay,
we're gonna beat them. They're gonna beat them. We read them,
we're gonna I thought familiarity with those teams in the

(55:31):
first two games, you know, was a good thing, doesn't
mean you're gonna win. I was probably too naive and young.
I kind of thought like, hey, it's better to play
somebody you're familiar with. But then when you're in the
second game and you have which to state. I think
this has been talked about uh, you know, there was
there was certainly a confidence that hey, we want at

(55:54):
which to state which we know how good they are,
we know how hard it is to win there. Now
they're coming to d C, like this is gonna be
there's gonna be a tall task for them. And I
think the players would tell you if you talk to
them that they could uh we could sense it, like
when we see those guys like in the hallway and
it was almost like they get I think they were

(56:16):
almost deflated about being in the sweet sixteen because they
were playing us, who was sort of the darling of
the tournament right right right right, whereas they otherwise in
any other setting, they would have been the darling in
the tournament. Or how did you how did coach l
handle it? Because as we both know, getting to a

(56:37):
sweet sixteen now is like even in those six is
like getting to a final four. And you guys beat
Michigan State and Carolina, right and then you come home
and then you're home for a couple of days before
you go and you're then you're in d C. So
what what what was? And and and he's you know,
he's the best, but how does how did he handle it?

(56:59):
So that there was still the ability to focus on
the tape. Yeah, he was unbelievable with it. I think
it's funny like U one he had coached in to
Final four is a Virginia, so he had at least
that experience of what it was like, you know, and
and uh, I think it's so funny. Nobody knew who
George Mason was. And his thing was like, Hey, this

(57:21):
is my chance and our chance to show everybody like
what our schools about. So he and in some ways
he didn't insulate these guys. It was like very inclusive,
like we're opening the gates too. You know, this is
our chance for our university to be you know a
little bit more recognizable. And so he was. He was
great about that. I think, Um, the guys, I mean,

(57:42):
there was no chance of them not being somewhat distracted.
They're all home, we're all from here. Like I think
Tony told the story that they snuck out of the
hotel they get haircuts like one night, you know, because
like because it was like there barber, just go to
my barber. So no, it was it was I think
again act of familiarity, the fact that we had played
those guys two weeks earlier probably helped in all of that.

(58:06):
Should then you play Yukon and you come us loaded, right,
really really good loaded. But now you kind of got
to return to that. I mean I think that I
think the jerseys kind of helped you right there, like
green jerseys and you know, like they walked in their
Yukon like they both maybe both the jerseys may be

(58:29):
made by Nike, but they are completely different factories, right
and when he has warmed up, you don't look like much.
Do you think the kind of the layer you know,
the old layup line when where somebody's looking down and
she's like we got You think that that played at
least a factor. And they didn't know what they didn't
know what league we were in. I think that was
one of the big ones. Like somebody asked Josh Wood,

(58:51):
they thought that we were in the Patriots, And I
remember like added like a couple of reporters were running
out of the the idea like like it was like
they got the best story and you know, of of
the day, Like can you believe that they didn't know
what lead they were and they thought there in the
Patriot like like running to go write it, you know,
so yeah, there was a little bit of that. And uh,

(59:12):
you know, they played Brandon Roy in Washington in the
game before, and I remember sitting there. I mean, we
all know how good Brandon Roy was. Like I'm like
sitting there scouting the game, thinking myself, are we are
we sure we don't want to play Yukon instead of
Washington because this guy, Brandon Roy is ridiculous. I mean
it was. It was an overtime game and it was
I mean, he was terrific. So it was both those teams.

(59:33):
Did you have the George Basin or did you have uh,
I mean, did you have Yukon or do you have Washington? Yeah,
so I did both back. You know, we still kind
of do it this way, like I did all the
opponents scouts and then we sort of self the other
guy's self scouted offense defense. So yeah, I had both um,
and it was I mean, yeah, it's different. So for

(59:54):
ten years and now DJ Irving did it for us
this year at Miami did a fabulous job. Um. One
assistant coach would do every opponents scout, you know, it
would almost be like an advanced scout sort of situation.
And then like one coach is sort of focused on
the defense, our defense, our offense, and obviously when we

(01:00:17):
all come together, um, the scouts presented, but then everybody's
sort of talking about game planning. So it's it's and
you know, Doug, in this day and age, there's a
lot more help today than than there was. You know,
so three people work on each scout. Yeah, it's it's
I wouldn't say it's that. It's it's like, my focus

(01:00:39):
is on the defense, our defense, So I'm thinking about
how we're going to defend these guys. Uh, somebody else's
focuses on the offense, how we're going to score on them.
The other coaches really focused on the opponent. And this
is what These are the tendencies, This are the actions,
these are the calls, and then we sort of all
come together to build the game plan. It's it's for

(01:01:03):
consistency of messaging. So like, yeah, sometimes you know you
have guys like use different terminology, Maybe guys are better
at this or that, and so coach feels like if
one guy is presenting the opponent and it's the same
every time, the consistency is good, when did you know
you had them? Never when the guy missed a shot

(01:01:28):
at the end, you know, Dnim Brown, No, I mean
we knew we were I think at halftime they were up,
I believe, but we hadn't played particularly well and we
were close enough within ten I think, and then we
jumped out of believe in it start the second half
and kind of got it either tied or got a
little lead, and you felt like, hey, we're in a

(01:01:48):
real battle. Giant Will could score in their big guys
one on one. Calhoun never double teamed, so that was like, Okay,
we got a way to play for the rest of
the game offensively and we were on a defensive team.
What was What is coach l like from this perpective,
there are the old coach was always like, we do

(01:02:10):
what we do and that's what we do right, and
they adjust us. Some of these guys are more pragmatists.
I feel like Bill self, you know, like I'm watching
the foal four and they double ball screens the first
first you know, four or five minutes that it really
rattled Villanova because that's not they had switched all year.
They hadn't they had double balls, and now they post

(01:02:32):
a post double early in the game as well. Was
he did did he adjusted to the your scatter report
or did he was there a certain things that he
always did because I felt like Calhoun Calhoun like, look,
I think Calhoun's an incredible coach, and he did sometimes
sometimes it's just but there's a lot of times he's like, hey,

(01:02:53):
we'll do what we do. We're good enough. It doesn't
matter what was coach el like, no, very adaptive, very
have to play. You know, I think played a lot
of different ways throughout his career. That season, I think
you may know this. You know, we lose to crighton
by twenty at home, and we came back and changed.

(01:03:14):
We went from denying up the line on the line
to being more in the paint, more packed in gaps,
whatever you want to call it. He moved Tony, he
moved Tony off the ball and put Follering on the ball,
and uh, you know, like the rest is history. But
it took a lot to to make that change mid season.
And remember him saying, you know, he's he's unbelievable about

(01:03:36):
having these discussions, but in that particular case, said hey,
I'm coming in and I don't want anybody's input on this.
I've I've already made this decision. I thought long, I
learned about it. I don't want you guys to talk
me out of this. So we're doing this, you know,
so uh And that was I think the first game
we played after that was at Georgia State, who had

(01:03:57):
just come into the league and had I want to say,
beat Delaware by thirty. And it was like, damn, like
they're doing the league. These guys are good. We go
there and win by thirty and it was like, okay,
that doing so now, and I want to and you
don't have to promise you a part two, but I

(01:04:17):
want to do a part two. But I love. Yeah, sure,
in your mind as a head coach, how do you
want to be right? And and we're all gonna be
different when you're faced with some of these dilemmas, because look,
there are some coaches that will sit there and go like, look,
you gotta have these core things that you're about, so
that and if and if you change them, you know,

(01:04:39):
the kids think you don't know what the hell you're doing.
You're just you know, they have to have confidence in
in in what you're teaching them initially, and that has
to be your core thing. So in terms of like
how you again, this is you just got the job,
this is your first thing. How do you think you
want to be? Well, I think there are things and
you know this from you know, from your your career,

(01:05:00):
and and look, there are things that don't change. Like
no one's going to convince me that, like not getting
back on defense, there's some other way to play, right,
or like guarding the ball hard. You know, I think
everyone talks about Virginia's pack defense. What they do unbelievably
well better than anything, is they guard the hell out

(01:05:21):
of the ball right, like point of attack. Right, Nobody's
gonna tell me that, Like, hey, it's not better to
take open high expected value shots, you know, but somehow
you should do it a different way, right, So like
for me, I think there are things that are not
going to change. Everything else is probably up for change.

(01:05:42):
How we get to this point? How we get to
that point? You know, Yeah, you have to play to
your personnel, play to your you know, your your your team,
your opponents, things like that. But I think that the
basics of it means, you know, keeping it simple in
that sense, I think is that can't change it. And
you to eliminate losing right before you can get to winning.

(01:06:03):
So again, what style you play? Well, I can tell
you this, whatever style you play, if you turn the
ball over a lot, that's a bad style and play.
You don't have to change that. Well, it's a it's a.
It's also everybody wants to play fast, like you kind
of have to have good players to play fast. But
we always we always got the This is the one
that was funny. We never talked about tempo. We never
talked about pace. We talked about pace and how we

(01:06:25):
ran offense, you know, how we moved. But like this
past year number one points for a possession team in
the country in transition, and yet like we never like
practiced that. It's just, hey, we got good defenses. We
were able to steal the ball a lot. Well, guess
what happens you throw it to a guy who's not
being defenditive, lazy, and the points where possession goes up

(01:06:47):
incredibly right, there's no drill that, like you know what
I'm saying, So like yeah, yeah, or like you know,
you have good offensive players, five guys like around double
figures if you get stopped. I love that one. Well,
you know offense is more important than defense. Well, again
I've never seen an offense that's better when you take
it out. Offense is always better when you get it

(01:07:08):
off the backboard or whatever, Right, So, like which one
is more important? I think what I've learned this balance
is important at all. It's the ultimate game in that sense,
right that the ultimate team game. You gotta play both
sides of the ball. So, okay, what do you remember
about the final four? Oh? Just I remember thinking, man,

(01:07:30):
I got here at twenty five? Is an assistant coach?
Am I ever going to get back? Is this? Is
there anything from here that time? Yeah? Like, because I
think it's incredible. People think like, you know, it's you've
been there three four years, it's kind of easy. Like
I didn't think that. I thought like, this is impossible,
And I was thinking that this year when we're up

(01:07:51):
six and half on Kansas, like, man, like this is
nearly impossible. And it's fifteen sixteen years later. How lucky
would I be? You know, I thought you guys were
the second best team that fought four. I think so,
I think you're right. I think we played the best
team and I think we might have been the second
best team. Yeah. Yeah, what's the feeling like in the
locker room when it wasn't that Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

(01:08:16):
I think we actually played the best game that they
had in those playing in the two final fours. Yes,
that's probably the best, the closest game. Yeah, yeah, honestly,
it was one of those that was It was one
of the reasons that I wanted to work for CBS
was I felt like the story wasn't properly told, you know,
and and that we have it's a TV thing where

(01:08:39):
we have a tendency we focused on Cinerella and they lose,
and we don't focus that, we don't don't about more.
And I would have sat there and I said, I
remember saying all that all the rest of the final four, like, hey,
you know, George Mason is the second best team in
that in that in that tournament. Um, but what do
you like those moments when the run is over is

(01:09:01):
an emotional one? Do you do you remember what that
locker room was like, what coach was like? Yeah, I
think they were sad. I think I think coach was
he was great. I mean I think as sad as
they were, everybody knew that they had done something that was,
you know, really impactful, not just for them and George Mason.
And but really I thought in college basketball at the time,

(01:09:23):
because you know VCU, Butler, Whichita State, Loyola, I might
be missing somebody that followed us. I think, um, somebody said,
you know, those guys walked into that locker room thinking
it was possible we're for us. Like I was like, like,
we could be, we could be Kent State, Like this
is awesome, We're Kent State. We maybe the only night

(01:09:44):
is this incredible? You know in modern basketball, right, it
happened in seventy nine. Whatever we pen like for for
those next teams that came through, they went in there
thinking like hey if George, basically, um, where were you
when you got the call that you got the job?
I was in Miami. Uh you know kind of I
didn't go. I decided not to go to New Orleans

(01:10:05):
because I thought maybe something's gonna happen, and uh, somebody
tip you off? Did you did you did you know?
You know, did coach say that you got this thing? No? Yeah,
I mean I had the sense that maybe it was
gonna come that day and that um he was doing
a little soul searching about uh, you know, my time
at Miami and and the new opportunity, and I certainly

(01:10:27):
wouldn't have been able to function in New Orleans. So
so you under the stay are you driving? I was driving,
I was driving. Tanya Bogel already d called called uh.
I was driving, kind of pulled over UH and stepped
out of the car to talk, and and it was
you know, it was obviously exciting. What is that like
when you when you hang up the phone, obviously you're

(01:10:48):
gonna call your wife, right, Yeah, of course, Yeah, my
wife was with me actually or yeah, I think I
gave the thumbs up, but she was looking at me
with a call of concern, you know, face of concern.
I just give the thumbs up. So what did you
tell her? What was the Well, we're well, I mean
we had obviously we've been talking a lot about it,

(01:11:09):
so it was uh. For me, I'm such a creature,
I have it Like what's been incredible is not not
only to go to a place that you have some
familiarity with, haven't been up here, but just a location
that we have so many friends here. I was there
nine years. When I left George Mason, I said, I'll
never be anywhere this long and coaching like this is crazy.
Nine years and then I've been in Miami eleven years

(01:11:32):
and now back to d C. So it's, uh, we're
fortunate in that sense. Like I got a lot of
things in my plate, but like I don't really need
a GPS, which is good. At what point in time
did you allow yourself or allow her to look at
real estate? Oh? Man, I try. I don't want to
do any of that. You know, it's like coaching. You're like,
it's like coaching. You're like, no, you know, let's not

(01:11:54):
get ahead of ourselves whatever. But I'm pretty sure my
wife was on, you know, looking at real estate quite
a bit. But again, the good thing is when you
know the locations, like you kind of know we're gonna
need to live here here or here you know. Um,
so that that part Miami. Okay, So I get what
I get. I get one more gay Today? Today is
your first day, your first day? Give me, give me

(01:12:18):
what honestly, what what does your day like? Are you
hiring your staff today? Are you know, yeah, working met
and greet today? What do you have? I mean, yeah, meet,
meet and greed you know probably paperwork, meet and greed
or compliance all that stuff. And then we're gonna get
on the court with the guys, you know, which is uh,
the thing I'm most looking forward to. All the other stuff,
I'm have absolutely no uh no desire to do paperwork

(01:12:42):
and things like that. You know, like if I could
just be in the gym and somebody else could do
the paperwork, that would be great. But I don't think
that's gonna happen. But it'll be great to meet a
lot of people. And uh there's actually a number of
people that work with us at George Mason that actually
work in the athletic departments. Will be some some familiarity there.
But uh yeah, hiring the staff is not easy. Um
obviously recruiting now in the in the days of the portal,

(01:13:04):
who you can keep, how many you know, who you're
gonna get, who you can keep? All that stuff is uh,
as you said, keep you up, keep you up at night,
all right, So give me give me a time sometime
later this week because I do want to get to
the the Miami stuff, you know, all that other stuff,
just thing just yeah, yeah, I'll shoot you, yeah, I'll
shoot you. Wanted to let you know all night. I

(01:13:26):
really appreciate Congratua. D d C is the best we'll
have fun. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. So all right, man,
appreciate it for you again, appreciate all right. That's it
for for for Chris, he was awesome. My picks. I
think Kansas quins. I don't think Caroline is healthy with

(01:13:47):
bay Cod. I think they gotta have some they gotta
lack some gas in the tank. And um, I feel
like Kansas playing their best ball. It doesn't mean they're
gonna hit as many shots as they hit the of
the night. That's why I like the under, the game under.
I like halftime Kansas game four points Kansas. I do

(01:14:08):
think it's a close game until Lake Kansas pulls away. Kanu. Man.
We have so many good guests coming up. Some people
have reached out and loved the podcast, all of you
that we ran into in New Orleans that love all Ball.
I appreciate you. I will take your suggestions. We will
continue to evolve this show, continue to evolve the guests
in the style with which we do. At the meantime,
remember my picks. And if I'm wrong, of course, you

(01:14:30):
can tweet me and say that I'm an idiot because
I picked the wrong team to win a basketball game
generally the way it works in the meantime, I'm Doug Gottlieban.
This is all ball.