January 4, 2026 • 29 mins
Coach Gottlieb explains why former Auburn HC - turned analyst - Bruce Pearl’s proposed changes to the NIL, including a $10 million/ per year revenue sharing agreement for men’s basketball is completely ridiculous and unrealistic given the economic realities of the sport.
He also reacts to Notre Dame HC Micah Shrewberry’s viral near assault on officials after a bad call, why Shrewsberry was wrong for the explosion, but right about the call that caused it.
Subscribe NOW to get all the latest All Ball Podcasts and visit Keeper’s Heart for an Irish take on American whiskey that is changing the game!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey, what up. Welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieve. Happy New
Year to you. Happy New Year.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
So there's lots of things we want to do with
this pod, and there will be an evolution of it.
In the meantime, we're just going to use it right
now as a bit of an outlet continue to talk hoops,
and we're going to add other sports and I think
you're really going to enjoy what we'll put in again.
(00:35):
But I want to start with addressing some things, which
actually the biggest thing that everybody's talking about, which is
the transfer portal of how to change these things and
what to do. And that's interesting because you know, now
we're taking advice from people on TV. And I love
(00:58):
my dear friend Bruce Pearl, former Ballburn coach, the former
Milwaukee coach, the former Tennessee coach, and he was on
TNT and I heard him talking about the changes that
he would make, Okay, And the first thing is we
need to stop talking about the ten million, like he said,
(01:19):
like ten million dollars for college basketball. Bruce has no
concept of what the world looks like outside of the SEC.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
So I'm telling you this from a place of knowledge.
Let's just start with the Power five. Remember in college basketball,
there's a Power five, despite the fact that the Big
East this year, outside of maybe Yukon, isn't at the
level of most of the rest of the leagues. And
maybe we can get into why that is in this
pot in other pots, but there's the power for and
(01:52):
you throw in the Big East because with revshare, without
having football.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
They're in the vicinity of everybody else.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
And most people believe that Yukon and Saint John's Villanova
they're spending enough to keep up with the Joneses. But Bruce,
where the fucks that you come up with the number
of ten million dollars? I know for a fact, for
a fact, that's a high number of power for schools
(02:21):
don't get close to that number, not close. And if
they did get close to that number, they are going
to bankdrupt their own program and.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
All of the other sports programs that they have to do.
This is the.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Problem with TV people is and I worked in TV
and I love the TV people, but they take the work.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
From it from people who were in the industry.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
And you have to take a snapshot of Bruce is
talking about at albert in the SEC, where everyone knows
that SEC schools before this were buying players and even
now are buying players.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Now it's just league, right, So.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
They're willing to put more money because they have more money.
So the point is that, by my estimation, most schools
at the power flow level in order to make it sustainable.
And I love Dan Parmaman, he joins me on this podcast.
(03:24):
So Dan joined me in the last podcast and said, hey,
you know you're limiting all these things like Dan, that's great, okay,
but if you actually looked at the revenue, it's not there. Now.
You could make the argument in college shop okay, but
it's not there for everybody. And if you're trying to
create an ecosystem, you have to start. You have to
find a way in which you have a sustainable model.
(03:47):
The reason that everybody says not sustainable is can you
find the money to compete in the yearly basis?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, but then you got to do it again and
the price goes out and again and again and again.
And while while so many people will point to the
ratings of March Badness and say, look at these ratings,
they are great, there's other factors that have nothing to
do with nil that increase the ratings.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
You want to know what the number one factor in.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
The March badness ratings are? Yeah, who's playing? What schools
are playing? Like, I'm not saying this because I think.
I'm saying this because I know. Here's the disingenuous part
about people on television and is Dan doesn't know because
(04:41):
Dan hasn't worked in TV. They all have the numbers. Okay,
we have too many games on TV. It doesn't matter
that much that you're on TV. But the only schools
that get numbers are consistent. Kentucky Duke gets a great number.
(05:03):
It helped that Duke had Cooper Flag that pumped up
the numbers. They went to the final four, they lost
in the national semi finals, and guess what if you
track it, every Duke game was a well spring of
ratings right, just you put Duke on TV and the
ratings circuit it did. Did It helped that it had
keeper Flag of course Nanzi and Williamson. Of course, with
(05:25):
Duke's on TV deep into the tournament, your numbers are
going to be good.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
That's the reality.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yet, Hey, Kentucky's another one, Kansas another one.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Obviously they're disappointing last year.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I still think you have some name coaches that'll draw
some numbers, like a Patino like in is O, but
Duke Carolina, Kansas, Kentucky. They all put up numbers in ratings.
Everything else doesn't matter nearly as much. It doesn't, Uh Michigan,
(05:59):
I think put up a good number, big ten school,
huge following big name. You know, think about how many
kids are named Jalen because of Jalen Rose back in
the Fab five Days.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
No one ever named their kid Jalen before that.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So before we get to this idea that everyone is
getting better ratings because of nil, frankly, I'm gonna call
bullshit up.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Second part to it is.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
While the ratings can be good, the biggest issue in
terms of generating other revenue is home attendance.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
And it's not always great.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And here's why I want you to imagine yourself as
a multi multi millionaire graduate in university, huge basketball fan,
and the athletic director calls you and says, hey, man,
we uh we need you to donate one hundred grand.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Us for get more kids, quality players.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And by the way, one hundred grand at the high
major is a is a bench player that never sees
the we need you to donate, Like, Okay, who's the player.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Now?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
The major donations you're gonna go get for, you know,
pick high level, high major recruit. Okay, I'll just mention
Aj Debands. Aj Debandsa is great, super talented, seems to
play hard, has a chance, along with Darreon Peterson, to
(07:39):
be the number one overall pick.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Maybe Boozer.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I don't know. And I can mention these guys as
a college coach because I'm never going to get to
recruit them.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
They're not coming to Green Valley.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
But why would I give money when there's no truns?
You know, we have donors and they're great. We probably
have better donors than any anybody else in our league.
Everybody raises money differently. Some teams play six seven guarantee games.
They make money that way and they get to spend
that money. Some have donors. Most people do a little
(08:11):
bit of both at this level. My donors are great,
but they want to know who these kids are. They
want to have them as part of the community. That's
what college athletics are always been, and we're making that
a harder and harder with the constant transfer. We just
are by the time they know them, by the time
they pull them up with them, by the time they
have them over their house for dinner, by the time
(08:32):
the kid feels comfortable a parent, an AU coach, a handler,
an agent. They move them and they may get a
little bit more money, but now they have to settle in.
And then the bigger thing is for those donors, are
they going to keep giving money or maybe better yet,
are they going to keep showing up when they don't
know who these kids are? Check the attendance from these schools,
(08:54):
and oh yeah, by the way, look at the disparity
in some of these scores. It's really hard at times
to coach those kids because they can mentally check out
on you if you're not playing well, if they're not playing,
because then they can think automatically they're going to.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
The other part.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
There's two other parts to Bruce Pearls take or believes
which don't hold up. First thing is ten million dollars
is too much, Bruce. You gotta go open a spreadsheet
and look at what it looks. Look at the books
for most of these schools. Don't get me wrong, a
lot of these coaches make probably a bit too much
money right, and you can if it were me and
(09:34):
I was at that level, set a number that you're
you're making plenty two, and then get everything else kind
of later when you retire or whatever, do the show
hey o Atani and use some of the rest of
the money to get better players. It's a pretty easy idea.
(09:57):
But the thing that's fascinating to me is like ninety
percent of the Power five schools can't afford ten millions.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Ninetyve ever sent. That is an arbitrary number.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
The second part is this uh and by the way,
he's wrong that it's not the that's not the REV
share split this year. REV share split this year is
I believe twenty two million dollars overall.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
They could split it up however you want. Second part
do it is this.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
The collective marketing everybody's talking about all these high.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Major coaches up at collective part. Charlie Banker was higher.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Because he has connections in DC. He can make it
happen in times. The way to do it is anti
trust legislation. Anti trust legislation keeps it out of the words, makes.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
It really sick.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
I read Dan Wilkins article earlier this week where he
talked about the NCAA was fighting to keep their old
rules intact, and had they not fought the old rules,
we would have been further along and none of this
would have happened. Dan, Bob, wake up. The reason that
(11:11):
the NCAA fought to the nail so that this so
that there was no nil was this exact reason, Like
what are we all missing? This is why I was
against it, not because I don't think that players should
be able to promote local brands, local stores, local restaurants,
(11:35):
be the face of products. Nobody has a problem with that,
But that's not what's happening, okay, And there's no amount
where you could have even now, Like the greed is
a real thing, and.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I don't think it's for the players. I think it's
for everybody else. Like, look, dude, if.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
You really believe that ten years ago, if they would
have started compensating high major players at twenty five grand
a year, and everyone had been going, oh, that's good,
that makes sense, that's good, that's and no one would
have if you give somebody twenty five a year.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Here's what happened.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
All the SEC schools would offer you twenty five more
under the table.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
And it's a lot more than twenty five more. Right.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
In addition, like you're dealing with human nature, and human nature,
especially in our society, says well they got twenty five,
that means they got twenty five or fifty more. No
money is always there, Ja billis, don'g tell me there's
not enough money. Jay, Have you actually gone and sat
down with that flet director and looked at the spreadsheet?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
If you'd like to, I'll invite you to Green Bay, Wisconsant.
Come on up. I'll show you our spreadsheet. Let's say
you how much everything.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Costs, every flight, every meal, every tutor, every grad assistant,
every assistant coach, every ride, every recruiting.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Call, everything. I'll show you everything, everything we pay people.
And then you'll walk back.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
You'll go back to Charlotte and you go, yeah, you know,
this is kind of it.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
It's kind of a terrible system. We just put all
up all colleges.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Like the system we're working towards might have one hundred
schools in Division one, so scholarships. It's not sustainable, it's
not We're going to make it work. We're going to
keep increasing our budget. I'm going to fight to to
nail to get our kids everything that they can get.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Hey, but it's just not.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Sustainable because we we have a diving board that needs
to be replaced in a cost one hundred grand to
replace the diving wood.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Our golf team needs a fifteen.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Passenger vany Our decisions are legit. Decisions are do we
pay players and try and compete and win games, or
does the golf team have a have an appropriate school
owned van that they can dry. By the way, it's
got to be twelve pastors. Fifteen pastors, you need a
different license.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
All this stuff is nuts, but you like we It's
it's just gross when I hear people who are on
TV that have that don't give a shit about everybody else.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
They just don't.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
That's not the idea of college athletics. So I'm not
telling you that we're not gonna compensate play. Everybody in
our program gets off, but it limits how much we
can pay assistant coaches who have worked their entire professional
lives and are really good and are responsible for the
growth of development of young men.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
What can we do is char ours strength coaches.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
We have our own dedicated strength Can we fly charters
or do we have to bust.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Everywhere because we've got to save money.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
What type of food would we give them, how much
gear we give them, Where do we travel to, how
do we travel? All these things are related. And if
you really think that ten million dollars is a number
that is sustainable, Bruce, you're you're living in the Auburn
fantasy world. And it's basically the messaging of Bruce is
(15:20):
coming from the messaging of I was at Auburn, this
is our budget, and yeah, if you want to compete
with a national championship, that's where you need to get to.
By the way, have fun at Kentucky. Supposedly s paid
twenty two million.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Dollars this ross. They have no chemistry.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
You got to go back to those donors and say, hey,
we want twenty two more.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Help us out. They're like, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
These are all new kids. Maybe Kentucky doesn't care. They
just want to win. As we just write checks every year,
that's all. That's that's how they validate themselves. But it's
crazy that you hear people on TV that offer up
numbers that's not a real number, that's not what people
are paying. And even the ones that are paying less
than that can tell you it's not sustainable. Can't do
(16:04):
that for more than a couple of years without bankrupting
the system. When you bankrupt the system, much like that's
happening at cal Baptists, right. CBU a heck of a
job this year, but they just eliminated a bunch of sports.
Liminitating wrestling in Riverside, California is a mistake. Wrestling in Riverside,
California is huge, huge, feel bad for those programs. So,
(16:30):
first thing is the ten million dollars is a bullshit number.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Sorry, Bruce, just is.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Second thing is people talking about the ratings being at
high like d you're making nonsense. These are these are
not really, these are non sequiturs. Hey, the ratings aren't
higher because players are are because of the portal and nil,
that's not that's not acting.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
There's no correlation there. Go and look, the ratings are.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
High when Duke plays deep into the turn, when certain
teams play deep in the tournament day, and there's other
factors like what else is going on in sports? There's
nothing else going on in sports? And oh yeah, by
the way, the Final Four is on CBS. The rings
are much higher than when it's on TNT, like all
of these things are real things that nobody talks about.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Instead, they just are like moths.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
They're drawn to the light of a number, and they're
not talking about the reality of how hard it is
to sell home game season tickets where you make a
lot of money, and are you when.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Too many games are on TV?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Nobody knows the players for either team And oh yeah,
by the way, all these rivalries have are less important
because the leagues are so much bigger. The collective margaining
sounds like a good idea and can be done without
making them employees. Can be done without making you do
not want them to become employees. You don't. You also
(17:54):
want to maintain your tax exempt status. That is incredibly
important to sustaining college athletics is that you're in a
tax free bubble and what you spend, which is which
is a real thing. Okay, the second you get out
of that, everything starts to get taxed and everything the
increase in expenses goes to two x and somebody has
(18:17):
to pay for So the way to do.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That is to get Charlie Baker for what he was
hired for and get it done.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
In terms of getting some some legislation, anti trust legislation. Okay,
then you set the parameters. Hey, you bring in different
levels of athletic track and you have them open the
books and say, hey, what can we sustin? How can
we sustain it? So we can also still have scholarships
(18:47):
for non revenue generating sports as well as keep the
lights on for revenue generating.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
That has to be a reality to it.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
That's the build the ability to replenish the assets on
a yearly basis. I feel terrible for Michael Michael Shrew's Barrett.
I've spoken with several people about this. Now, the fouling
up three thing is becoming increasingly difficult. We had a
situation where we played Santa Barbara. It was a three
(19:16):
dwo point game and we were supposed to foul before
mid court under seven seconds. Okay, but do it in
a way in which there wasn't a chance of fouling
a guy in a shooting motion. Because now the continuation
based upon the rule like, it's very very it's a
(19:36):
very narrow gap. So Notre Dame is screwed up because
they didn't fowl in the back. On the other hand,
and I know there was a slight touch of the
body right before the shot, but like, what do we
do that's not a foul, it's not an ant one,
and what are we actually doing? And then it felt
(19:59):
like the officials tried to fix it. The biggest issue
is with replay. Officials tried to fix it and they
could and Michaeh lost his mind. You're not supposed to
lose your mind, You're not supposed to go at you
an official, But having been in a different but similar situation,
(20:20):
you feel powerless.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
You're angry.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
You feel like somebody just took the game from your players,
your staff, your entire your entire team. Can't go after
ref can't can't push a stool even when it doesn't
affect anybody else. There's all these things you have to
do because you represent, in Micah's case, one of the
(20:43):
finest universities in the world. Same thing for me, one
of the finest universities in the country, finance universities.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
I represent the entire state of Wisconsin.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
You can't do those things even if in reality they
don't affect people. I find to be interesting is that
what they The way it works generally is there's a
guy at the conference office that he assigns the officials,
(21:12):
and then his job is to catch all the criticism
from the coaches. Coaches call them after games and they
motherfuck them up and down. I hate this fucking guy.
This guy fucking screwed me. Get this fucking guy off
my fucking don't. And then you're like, calm down, and
you go back and you watch the tape and you're like, well,
part of it was our kids, part of it was me,
(21:34):
part of it was the officials.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Here's what's crazy about.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
They don't call a little touch foul like that where
he just puts it on a three point show on.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Offensive rebounding. They don't call anything anything. We'll play teams.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
There, guys will grab our guys with two hands, throw
them to the floor, grab a rebound, throw it in
and be like gif us. You're like, the see that
it's not the missed. It's not the fowls that are called.
They have to be consistent and you can't all of
a sudden call it little touch fowl when you missed
twice before that. Right, That's that's what Mike has pissed about, Right,
(22:19):
He's pissed that if you're gonna call it touch fowl
then call it touch fowl. When the kids bringing it
up the court and there's a little bit of contact there,
they call it. So I feel for Micah. I've lost
my mind before. It's a very normal thing to lose
your mind. Great job by the walk Ons and Red
(22:42):
Shirts at Notre Dame holding their coach back from I
don't know, going nose to nose.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
I don't think he would have.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Hit or grabbed the guy, but he was just pissed.
And the truth is he has every right to be pissed.
And the worst part was I thought that the officials
pretty obviously tried to fix it and by rule they couldn't.
By rule, they couldn't, you know, didn't want to count
the basket. Knew he knew he fucked up. That's the reality.
(23:13):
They wouldn't have gone back and waved it off at
first and then changed their mind back. They knew they
fucked I'm gonna give credit to an official. We played Campbell,
and we played terrible in the second half. At the
end of the first half, they dribbled down length of
(23:33):
the court, pulled up to shoot a three shot, faked
and the kids slipped and looked like he traveled his
left foot or maybe his right foot flung out, and
as he threw a ball up that had no chance
of going in his right foot kicking forward, brushed up
against one of my players, and a three shot bowel
(23:53):
was called. And when they went to the monitor, I
was like, dude, that's not right. And I never cursed,
I never motherfucked the guy. He did not get me
attack to go vowel. But I was like that, that's
just not right. He traveled and oh yeah, by the way,
kicking out your foot, you do not have the space
to kick out your foot. And it wasn't like a
Reggie Miller kick out at his foot. He was literally
(24:14):
falling to the ground kicked out his foot. He couldn't
control his own bottle. We actually got the ball after
the third made free throw.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
And threw it in.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
It raised the hand of one of my players, ended
up in the hand of one of my others.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Who shot at three.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
He made it, but because they could go to the monitor,
they went back. The clock should have started the shot
wind of count. All of this was by rule. Okay,
all this was by rule.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
So they followed the letter.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Of the rule after what was a blown call, and
once you call a foul. You can't wipe off that
foul call by rule in college basket that's a mistake
that needs to be that needs to be changed. What's
the point of having a challenge if you can't challenge
a completely butchered call. You can challenge whether or not
(25:08):
their feet are out of the circle or not, and
you can challenge if the ball was tuts and you
can challenge a goaltend, But you can only challenge a
goaltend if the goaltend was called. If it wasn't called,
they can't then call a goaltend afterwards.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
And this is what.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Always happens with new rules, especially in college sports, happens
in the NFL summer as well, where they put it
out there, they try it and they're like, ooh, this
doesn't really work, and then they fix it and ultimately
they get to a place where it's really good. I
believe that that needs to change. But here's where the
official when we're at Campbell was great. It came over
(25:48):
to me the start of the second and a half
and he goes, ohe you inn a poet. I really
fucked up there, And I said, hey, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
That's all you can do appreciate it. That's man stuff said.
You're bad.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
You and I are good. You just said that wasn't right.
That's not fair to our kids. That's all. That's all
I ever said. I did say it very loudly so
everybody could hear. But I don't think that violates any
sort of core tenants of being a coach. So the
big takeaways are big takeaways are ten million dollars is
(26:30):
not a real number. Sorry, Bruce. Collective arguing sounds good,
but let's let Charlie Baker get anti trust legislation. First understand,
there's different levels of college basketball, and it isn't sustainable.
Ask anybody. Don't ask people who haven't seen the books.
Check out the books and they'll tell you exactly what
it is. Oh last thing is lots of teams have
multi year contracts. The problem is that athletic departments are
(26:55):
hesitant to sue for buyout damages because they think it
makes them look bad. If you have a contract, you
should be able to sue for that guy. If you
have a buyout, you got to pay the buyout. Coaches
have to Why don't players, Hey, I thought you guys
all want wanted players and coaches. Coaches leave after one year,
(27:19):
they mostly don't. We're talking about one or two guys
a year.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
But whatever.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
You want to make coaches and players the same, fine,
here you go, Here you go, be boy. Here's a contract,
multi year contract, just like a coach.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
You want to get out of it.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
There's a buyout and oh yeah, by the way, players
can negotiate a buyout if the coach doesn't want back,
that's also part of the negotiations.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
You can do that.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Nobody says this. And we need to change the replay rules,
and we need to understand that if an official blows
a call, there is a fix, and the fix can
be in the replay rule where they can go, oh,
I really screwed that one up. On the next all ball,
(28:04):
we are going to have a discussion about the ability
to advance the basketball on a timeout. My brother's a
coach at San Diego State. I watch our women with
a fabulous coach, Kayla Carrius, who's great. I watched them
beat Cleveland State. It's a completely different game with the advanced.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Rule, and I think we need to get to it.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
But I've been a proponent of men's college basketball. No
quarters no advance for a long time, and I've evolved,
I've changed, and we'll get into it. In the meantime,
I appreciate you continue to listen. Our team gets ready
to take on our tribal Milwaukee. Last year they punked
us twice. Let's see what our guys got on Monday night.
(28:47):
Thanks so much for listening. I'm Doug Gottlie
Hey, what up. Welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieve. Happy New
Year to you. Happy New Year.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
So there's lots of things we want to do with
this pod, and there will be an evolution of it.
In the meantime, we're just going to use it right
now as a bit of an outlet continue to talk hoops,
and we're going to add other sports and I think
you're really going to enjoy what we'll put in again.
(00:35):
But I want to start with addressing some things, which
actually the biggest thing that everybody's talking about, which is
the transfer portal of how to change these things and
what to do. And that's interesting because you know, now
we're taking advice from people on TV. And I love
(00:58):
my dear friend Bruce Pearl, former Ballburn coach, the former
Milwaukee coach, the former Tennessee coach, and he was on
TNT and I heard him talking about the changes that
he would make, Okay, And the first thing is we
need to stop talking about the ten million, like he said,
(01:19):
like ten million dollars for college basketball. Bruce has no
concept of what the world looks like outside of the SEC.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
So I'm telling you this from a place of knowledge.
Let's just start with the Power five. Remember in college basketball,
there's a Power five, despite the fact that the Big
East this year, outside of maybe Yukon, isn't at the
level of most of the rest of the leagues. And
maybe we can get into why that is in this
pot in other pots, but there's the power for and
(01:52):
you throw in the Big East because with revshare, without
having football.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
They're in the vicinity of everybody else.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
And most people believe that Yukon and Saint John's Villanova
they're spending enough to keep up with the Joneses. But Bruce,
where the fucks that you come up with the number
of ten million dollars? I know for a fact, for
a fact, that's a high number of power for schools
(02:21):
don't get close to that number, not close. And if
they did get close to that number, they are going
to bankdrupt their own program and.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
All of the other sports programs that they have to do.
This is the.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Problem with TV people is and I worked in TV
and I love the TV people, but they take the work.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
From it from people who were in the industry.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
And you have to take a snapshot of Bruce is
talking about at albert in the SEC, where everyone knows
that SEC schools before this were buying players and even
now are buying players.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Now it's just league, right, So.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
They're willing to put more money because they have more money.
So the point is that, by my estimation, most schools
at the power flow level in order to make it sustainable.
And I love Dan Parmaman, he joins me on this podcast.
(03:24):
So Dan joined me in the last podcast and said, hey,
you know you're limiting all these things like Dan, that's great, okay,
but if you actually looked at the revenue, it's not there. Now.
You could make the argument in college shop okay, but
it's not there for everybody. And if you're trying to
create an ecosystem, you have to start. You have to
find a way in which you have a sustainable model.
(03:47):
The reason that everybody says not sustainable is can you
find the money to compete in the yearly basis?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, but then you got to do it again and
the price goes out and again and again and again.
And while while so many people will point to the
ratings of March Badness and say, look at these ratings,
they are great, there's other factors that have nothing to
do with nil that increase the ratings.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
You want to know what the number one factor in.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
The March badness ratings are? Yeah, who's playing? What schools
are playing? Like, I'm not saying this because I think.
I'm saying this because I know. Here's the disingenuous part
about people on television and is Dan doesn't know because
(04:41):
Dan hasn't worked in TV. They all have the numbers. Okay,
we have too many games on TV. It doesn't matter
that much that you're on TV. But the only schools
that get numbers are consistent. Kentucky Duke gets a great number.
(05:03):
It helped that Duke had Cooper Flag that pumped up
the numbers. They went to the final four, they lost
in the national semi finals, and guess what if you
track it, every Duke game was a well spring of
ratings right, just you put Duke on TV and the
ratings circuit it did. Did It helped that it had
keeper Flag of course Nanzi and Williamson. Of course, with
(05:25):
Duke's on TV deep into the tournament, your numbers are
going to be good.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
That's the reality.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yet, Hey, Kentucky's another one, Kansas another one.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Obviously they're disappointing last year.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I still think you have some name coaches that'll draw
some numbers, like a Patino like in is O, but
Duke Carolina, Kansas, Kentucky. They all put up numbers in ratings.
Everything else doesn't matter nearly as much. It doesn't, Uh Michigan,
(05:59):
I think put up a good number, big ten school,
huge following big name. You know, think about how many
kids are named Jalen because of Jalen Rose back in
the Fab five Days.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
No one ever named their kid Jalen before that.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So before we get to this idea that everyone is
getting better ratings because of nil, frankly, I'm gonna call
bullshit up.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Second part to it is.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
While the ratings can be good, the biggest issue in
terms of generating other revenue is home attendance.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
And it's not always great.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And here's why I want you to imagine yourself as
a multi multi millionaire graduate in university, huge basketball fan,
and the athletic director calls you and says, hey, man,
we uh we need you to donate one hundred grand.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Us for get more kids, quality players.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And by the way, one hundred grand at the high
major is a is a bench player that never sees
the we need you to donate, Like, Okay, who's the player.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Now?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
The major donations you're gonna go get for, you know,
pick high level, high major recruit. Okay, I'll just mention
Aj Debands. Aj Debandsa is great, super talented, seems to
play hard, has a chance, along with Darreon Peterson, to
(07:39):
be the number one overall pick.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Maybe Boozer.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I don't know. And I can mention these guys as
a college coach because I'm never going to get to
recruit them.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
They're not coming to Green Valley.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
But why would I give money when there's no truns?
You know, we have donors and they're great. We probably
have better donors than any anybody else in our league.
Everybody raises money differently. Some teams play six seven guarantee games.
They make money that way and they get to spend
that money. Some have donors. Most people do a little
(08:11):
bit of both at this level. My donors are great,
but they want to know who these kids are. They
want to have them as part of the community. That's
what college athletics are always been, and we're making that
a harder and harder with the constant transfer. We just
are by the time they know them, by the time
they pull them up with them, by the time they
have them over their house for dinner, by the time
(08:32):
the kid feels comfortable a parent, an AU coach, a handler,
an agent. They move them and they may get a
little bit more money, but now they have to settle in.
And then the bigger thing is for those donors, are
they going to keep giving money or maybe better yet,
are they going to keep showing up when they don't
know who these kids are? Check the attendance from these schools,
(08:54):
and oh yeah, by the way, look at the disparity
in some of these scores. It's really hard at times
to coach those kids because they can mentally check out
on you if you're not playing well, if they're not playing,
because then they can think automatically they're going to.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
The other part.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
There's two other parts to Bruce Pearls take or believes
which don't hold up. First thing is ten million dollars
is too much, Bruce. You gotta go open a spreadsheet
and look at what it looks. Look at the books
for most of these schools. Don't get me wrong, a
lot of these coaches make probably a bit too much
money right, and you can if it were me and
(09:34):
I was at that level, set a number that you're
you're making plenty two, and then get everything else kind
of later when you retire or whatever, do the show
hey o Atani and use some of the rest of
the money to get better players. It's a pretty easy idea.
(09:57):
But the thing that's fascinating to me is like ninety
percent of the Power five schools can't afford ten millions.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Ninetyve ever sent. That is an arbitrary number.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
The second part is this uh and by the way,
he's wrong that it's not the that's not the REV
share split this year. REV share split this year is
I believe twenty two million dollars overall.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
They could split it up however you want. Second part
do it is this.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
The collective marketing everybody's talking about all these high.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Major coaches up at collective part. Charlie Banker was higher.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Because he has connections in DC. He can make it
happen in times. The way to do it is anti
trust legislation. Anti trust legislation keeps it out of the words, makes.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
It really sick.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
I read Dan Wilkins article earlier this week where he
talked about the NCAA was fighting to keep their old
rules intact, and had they not fought the old rules,
we would have been further along and none of this
would have happened. Dan, Bob, wake up. The reason that
(11:11):
the NCAA fought to the nail so that this so
that there was no nil was this exact reason, Like
what are we all missing? This is why I was
against it, not because I don't think that players should
be able to promote local brands, local stores, local restaurants,
(11:35):
be the face of products. Nobody has a problem with that,
But that's not what's happening, okay, And there's no amount
where you could have even now, Like the greed is
a real thing, and.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I don't think it's for the players. I think it's
for everybody else. Like, look, dude, if.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
You really believe that ten years ago, if they would
have started compensating high major players at twenty five grand
a year, and everyone had been going, oh, that's good,
that makes sense, that's good, that's and no one would
have if you give somebody twenty five a year.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Here's what happened.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
All the SEC schools would offer you twenty five more
under the table.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
And it's a lot more than twenty five more. Right.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
In addition, like you're dealing with human nature, and human nature,
especially in our society, says well they got twenty five,
that means they got twenty five or fifty more. No
money is always there, Ja billis, don'g tell me there's
not enough money. Jay, Have you actually gone and sat
down with that flet director and looked at the spreadsheet?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
If you'd like to, I'll invite you to Green Bay, Wisconsant.
Come on up. I'll show you our spreadsheet. Let's say
you how much everything.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Costs, every flight, every meal, every tutor, every grad assistant,
every assistant coach, every ride, every recruiting.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Call, everything. I'll show you everything, everything we pay people.
And then you'll walk back.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
You'll go back to Charlotte and you go, yeah, you know,
this is kind of it.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
It's kind of a terrible system. We just put all
up all colleges.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Like the system we're working towards might have one hundred
schools in Division one, so scholarships. It's not sustainable, it's
not We're going to make it work. We're going to
keep increasing our budget. I'm going to fight to to
nail to get our kids everything that they can get.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Hey, but it's just not.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Sustainable because we we have a diving board that needs
to be replaced in a cost one hundred grand to
replace the diving wood.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Our golf team needs a fifteen.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Passenger vany Our decisions are legit. Decisions are do we
pay players and try and compete and win games, or
does the golf team have a have an appropriate school
owned van that they can dry. By the way, it's
got to be twelve pastors. Fifteen pastors, you need a
different license.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
All this stuff is nuts, but you like we It's
it's just gross when I hear people who are on
TV that have that don't give a shit about everybody else.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
They just don't.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
That's not the idea of college athletics. So I'm not
telling you that we're not gonna compensate play. Everybody in
our program gets off, but it limits how much we
can pay assistant coaches who have worked their entire professional
lives and are really good and are responsible for the
growth of development of young men.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
What can we do is char ours strength coaches.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
We have our own dedicated strength Can we fly charters
or do we have to bust.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Everywhere because we've got to save money.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
What type of food would we give them, how much
gear we give them, Where do we travel to, how
do we travel? All these things are related. And if
you really think that ten million dollars is a number
that is sustainable, Bruce, you're you're living in the Auburn
fantasy world. And it's basically the messaging of Bruce is
(15:20):
coming from the messaging of I was at Auburn, this
is our budget, and yeah, if you want to compete
with a national championship, that's where you need to get to.
By the way, have fun at Kentucky. Supposedly s paid
twenty two million.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Dollars this ross. They have no chemistry.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
You got to go back to those donors and say, hey,
we want twenty two more.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Help us out. They're like, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
These are all new kids. Maybe Kentucky doesn't care. They
just want to win. As we just write checks every year,
that's all. That's that's how they validate themselves. But it's
crazy that you hear people on TV that offer up
numbers that's not a real number, that's not what people
are paying. And even the ones that are paying less
than that can tell you it's not sustainable. Can't do
(16:04):
that for more than a couple of years without bankrupting
the system. When you bankrupt the system, much like that's
happening at cal Baptists, right. CBU a heck of a
job this year, but they just eliminated a bunch of sports.
Liminitating wrestling in Riverside, California is a mistake. Wrestling in Riverside,
California is huge, huge, feel bad for those programs. So,
(16:30):
first thing is the ten million dollars is a bullshit number.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Sorry, Bruce, just is.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Second thing is people talking about the ratings being at
high like d you're making nonsense. These are these are
not really, these are non sequiturs. Hey, the ratings aren't
higher because players are are because of the portal and nil,
that's not that's not acting.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
There's no correlation there. Go and look, the ratings are.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
High when Duke plays deep into the turn, when certain
teams play deep in the tournament day, and there's other
factors like what else is going on in sports? There's
nothing else going on in sports? And oh yeah, by
the way, the Final Four is on CBS. The rings
are much higher than when it's on TNT, like all
of these things are real things that nobody talks about.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Instead, they just are like moths.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
They're drawn to the light of a number, and they're
not talking about the reality of how hard it is
to sell home game season tickets where you make a
lot of money, and are you when.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Too many games are on TV?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Nobody knows the players for either team And oh yeah,
by the way, all these rivalries have are less important
because the leagues are so much bigger. The collective margaining
sounds like a good idea and can be done without
making them employees. Can be done without making you do
not want them to become employees. You don't. You also
(17:54):
want to maintain your tax exempt status. That is incredibly
important to sustaining college athletics is that you're in a
tax free bubble and what you spend, which is which
is a real thing. Okay, the second you get out
of that, everything starts to get taxed and everything the
increase in expenses goes to two x and somebody has
(18:17):
to pay for So the way to do.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That is to get Charlie Baker for what he was
hired for and get it done.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
In terms of getting some some legislation, anti trust legislation. Okay,
then you set the parameters. Hey, you bring in different
levels of athletic track and you have them open the
books and say, hey, what can we sustin? How can
we sustain it? So we can also still have scholarships
(18:47):
for non revenue generating sports as well as keep the
lights on for revenue generating.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
That has to be a reality to it.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
That's the build the ability to replenish the assets on
a yearly basis. I feel terrible for Michael Michael Shrew's Barrett.
I've spoken with several people about this. Now, the fouling
up three thing is becoming increasingly difficult. We had a
situation where we played Santa Barbara. It was a three
(19:16):
dwo point game and we were supposed to foul before
mid court under seven seconds. Okay, but do it in
a way in which there wasn't a chance of fouling
a guy in a shooting motion. Because now the continuation
based upon the rule like, it's very very it's a
(19:36):
very narrow gap. So Notre Dame is screwed up because
they didn't fowl in the back. On the other hand,
and I know there was a slight touch of the
body right before the shot, but like, what do we
do that's not a foul, it's not an ant one,
and what are we actually doing? And then it felt
(19:59):
like the officials tried to fix it. The biggest issue
is with replay. Officials tried to fix it and they
could and Michaeh lost his mind. You're not supposed to
lose your mind, You're not supposed to go at you
an official, But having been in a different but similar situation,
(20:20):
you feel powerless.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
You're angry.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
You feel like somebody just took the game from your players,
your staff, your entire your entire team. Can't go after
ref can't can't push a stool even when it doesn't
affect anybody else. There's all these things you have to
do because you represent, in Micah's case, one of the
(20:43):
finest universities in the world. Same thing for me, one
of the finest universities in the country, finance universities.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
I represent the entire state of Wisconsin.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
You can't do those things even if in reality they
don't affect people. I find to be interesting is that
what they The way it works generally is there's a
guy at the conference office that he assigns the officials,
(21:12):
and then his job is to catch all the criticism
from the coaches. Coaches call them after games and they
motherfuck them up and down. I hate this fucking guy.
This guy fucking screwed me. Get this fucking guy off
my fucking don't. And then you're like, calm down, and
you go back and you watch the tape and you're like, well,
part of it was our kids, part of it was me,
(21:34):
part of it was the officials.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Here's what's crazy about.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
They don't call a little touch foul like that where
he just puts it on a three point show on.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Offensive rebounding. They don't call anything anything. We'll play teams.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
There, guys will grab our guys with two hands, throw
them to the floor, grab a rebound, throw it in
and be like gif us. You're like, the see that
it's not the missed. It's not the fowls that are called.
They have to be consistent and you can't all of
a sudden call it little touch fowl when you missed
twice before that. Right, That's that's what Mike has pissed about, Right,
(22:19):
He's pissed that if you're gonna call it touch fowl
then call it touch fowl. When the kids bringing it
up the court and there's a little bit of contact there,
they call it. So I feel for Micah. I've lost
my mind before. It's a very normal thing to lose
your mind. Great job by the walk Ons and Red
(22:42):
Shirts at Notre Dame holding their coach back from I
don't know, going nose to nose.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
I don't think he would have.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Hit or grabbed the guy, but he was just pissed.
And the truth is he has every right to be pissed.
And the worst part was I thought that the officials
pretty obviously tried to fix it and by rule they couldn't.
By rule, they couldn't, you know, didn't want to count
the basket. Knew he knew he fucked up. That's the reality.
(23:13):
They wouldn't have gone back and waved it off at
first and then changed their mind back. They knew they
fucked I'm gonna give credit to an official. We played Campbell,
and we played terrible in the second half. At the
end of the first half, they dribbled down length of
(23:33):
the court, pulled up to shoot a three shot, faked
and the kids slipped and looked like he traveled his
left foot or maybe his right foot flung out, and
as he threw a ball up that had no chance
of going in his right foot kicking forward, brushed up
against one of my players, and a three shot bowel
(23:53):
was called. And when they went to the monitor, I
was like, dude, that's not right. And I never cursed,
I never motherfucked the guy. He did not get me
attack to go vowel. But I was like that, that's
just not right. He traveled and oh yeah, by the way,
kicking out your foot, you do not have the space
to kick out your foot. And it wasn't like a
Reggie Miller kick out at his foot. He was literally
(24:14):
falling to the ground kicked out his foot. He couldn't
control his own bottle. We actually got the ball after
the third made free throw.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
And threw it in.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
It raised the hand of one of my players, ended
up in the hand of one of my others.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Who shot at three.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
He made it, but because they could go to the monitor,
they went back. The clock should have started the shot
wind of count. All of this was by rule. Okay,
all this was by rule.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
So they followed the letter.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Of the rule after what was a blown call, and
once you call a foul. You can't wipe off that
foul call by rule in college basket that's a mistake
that needs to be that needs to be changed. What's
the point of having a challenge if you can't challenge
a completely butchered call. You can challenge whether or not
(25:08):
their feet are out of the circle or not, and
you can challenge if the ball was tuts and you
can challenge a goaltend, But you can only challenge a
goaltend if the goaltend was called. If it wasn't called,
they can't then call a goaltend afterwards.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
And this is what.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Always happens with new rules, especially in college sports, happens
in the NFL summer as well, where they put it
out there, they try it and they're like, ooh, this
doesn't really work, and then they fix it and ultimately
they get to a place where it's really good. I
believe that that needs to change. But here's where the
official when we're at Campbell was great. It came over
(25:48):
to me the start of the second and a half
and he goes, ohe you inn a poet. I really
fucked up there, And I said, hey, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
That's all you can do appreciate it. That's man stuff said.
You're bad.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
You and I are good. You just said that wasn't right.
That's not fair to our kids. That's all. That's all
I ever said. I did say it very loudly so
everybody could hear. But I don't think that violates any
sort of core tenants of being a coach. So the
big takeaways are big takeaways are ten million dollars is
(26:30):
not a real number. Sorry, Bruce. Collective arguing sounds good,
but let's let Charlie Baker get anti trust legislation. First understand,
there's different levels of college basketball, and it isn't sustainable.
Ask anybody. Don't ask people who haven't seen the books.
Check out the books and they'll tell you exactly what
it is. Oh last thing is lots of teams have
multi year contracts. The problem is that athletic departments are
(26:55):
hesitant to sue for buyout damages because they think it
makes them look bad. If you have a contract, you
should be able to sue for that guy. If you
have a buyout, you got to pay the buyout. Coaches
have to Why don't players, Hey, I thought you guys
all want wanted players and coaches. Coaches leave after one year,
(27:19):
they mostly don't. We're talking about one or two guys
a year.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
But whatever.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
You want to make coaches and players the same, fine,
here you go, Here you go, be boy. Here's a contract,
multi year contract, just like a coach.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
You want to get out of it.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
There's a buyout and oh yeah, by the way, players
can negotiate a buyout if the coach doesn't want back,
that's also part of the negotiations.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
You can do that.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Nobody says this. And we need to change the replay rules,
and we need to understand that if an official blows
a call, there is a fix, and the fix can
be in the replay rule where they can go, oh,
I really screwed that one up. On the next all ball,
(28:04):
we are going to have a discussion about the ability
to advance the basketball on a timeout. My brother's a
coach at San Diego State. I watch our women with
a fabulous coach, Kayla Carrius, who's great. I watched them
beat Cleveland State. It's a completely different game with the advanced.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Rule, and I think we need to get to it.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
But I've been a proponent of men's college basketball. No
quarters no advance for a long time, and I've evolved,
I've changed, and we'll get into it. In the meantime,
I appreciate you continue to listen. Our team gets ready
to take on our tribal Milwaukee. Last year they punked
us twice. Let's see what our guys got on Monday night.
(28:47):
Thanks so much for listening. I'm Doug Gottlie
Host
Doug Gottlieb
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.