December 24, 2025 • 33 mins
Coach Gottlieb discusses his decision to hit the pause button on his daily radio show, why he made the move, and the key role All Ball will continue to play going forward. He also gives an update on his Green Bay squad after beginning conference play.
Then, he’s joined is joined by Daniel Poneman of Weave Basketball, a player representation and consulting group focused on NIL, to discuss his viewpoint from the frontlines of the NIL era, how he’s separating himself from the new wave of pretender agents, why the proposed SCORE Act legislation backed by the NCAA was a raw deal for student athletes.
Subscribe NOW to get all the latest All Ball Podcasts and visit Keeper’s Heart for an Irish take on American whiskey that is changing the game!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, what up. Welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlie. This is
all ball, all right. So what you heard by now,
and I don't.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Know if we've talked about this in the pod is
I'm not gonna do the live radio show. This feed
will be my outlet to the world. So we're gonna
keep adding things in tigre with things. But in the meantime,
what you do need to know is every Thursday, and
obviously we're putting this thing out on the was this
Christmas Eve? Yeah, we'll put this out on Christmas Eve,
(00:33):
which is a Wednesday. Every Thursday, we're gonna have Dan
Poneman on the show. Dan Poneman is the owner proprietor
of We've. We've is I think the biggest college basketball
an IL agency working, or if not, it's the most
interesting one. And Dan I have a great relationship. So
(00:53):
what it is, what this is a place for is
for you to get educated on the reality of the space,
the reality of the space, instead of hearing from it
from people on TV, none of whom I believe, well
maybe with some of the fire football coaches, but there's
no basketball coach that I believe that's on TV. That's
(01:14):
been fired in this new nil era. Who can tell
you how it really works, what really happens, some of
the pitfalls of it, some of the challenges of it,
some of the good things about it as well. So
Dan Ponaman is going to join me every Thursday here
on the show. But the Personal Life Update is not
going to do the live radio show press pause on it.
(01:35):
You know, like perception reality two different things. But you
also you have to win sometimes the perception battle to
win the reality battle perception from some of b how
can you do two jobs? How can you do love radio?
It's like it was fine. The parts that come up
short are the rest of your life. You know, this
is a really random one. I was thinking about this today.
I have never taken my dogs. So at Green Bay
(02:00):
we have the campus. Part of it used to be
an eighteen old golf course. There was a nine old
golf course. Then the last nine holes were made into
this incredible cross country of course. So I not out
of season. I take my dogs there. They run it,
They love it. One of my dogs gets in the
you know, the ponds and chases the.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Ducks and whatever.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I don't get to do that in basketball season, you know,
just don't get to have lunch with my players unless
they have it in my office when I'm working.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So I'm gonna take it.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Use the benefits of only locking in, only holding out
of basketball, and then on off times we'll do podcasts
and they'll be really really good and you know, kind
of the less is more sort of variety. We'll have
more of these podcasts than we've had previously, but less
than a five day a week grind. And also, I
(02:51):
don't feel like I need to only discuss the Dallas
Cowboys and you know, Tom Brady and Lebron James and
all the topics that Daily Radio TV feel compelled to
do because the numbers tell you got to talk about those.
It's not that what I can talk about not popular things,
but we can be more exactly what we want to
(03:12):
get to. Here's where we are in college basketball. With
our season. We played three conference games. We're one and two.
I'm really disappointed in our Robert Morris loss. So one
and two is a game below where we think we
should be. We're six and eight overall, coming out of
non conference where we were five and seven, and of
that five and seven, Yale was a game that we
came from behind, had a chance to win. Minnesota went
(03:33):
to overtime very well, could have won that one, and
the Campbell game. The last game was really disappointing. Our
guys just didn't fight back in the second half. And
credit them, they played great, made a ton of shots,
played great basketball, pubbled.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Us inside, and then kicked it out to open threes.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
So for me, I'd say we're a game or two
behind what my personal expectations are of my team. For
people out there, I think think we're ahead or oh
my gosh, they're not going to lose every game this
year the way it felt like they lost every game.
I think everyone can see that we're on a track
to being a good basketball team, a good program, and
(04:14):
we got to learn to do a couple of little
things if we want to win more of these league
games and give ourselves a chance when the rise in
league tournament starts. As for college basketball, you're seeing a
lot of these wild swings and big losses, and I
think many of us are in the same boat where
we're still trying to figure out our rosters. I mean,
I have two players that I want to play more,
(04:36):
but I feel like if I'm playing them. Then I'm
playing either too many guys or I got to sit
somebody who has consistently brought more effort and physicality, which
is what we need. So you're still kind of trying
to figure out your roster. So you get the personal update,
the team update. Our guys are all home for three days.
They'll be back night of twenty six, twenty seven. If
we get after we don't play until the first of January.
(04:57):
Don't get up to the first of January. As for
the nil world, and we'll get to some of this
with Dan. You know, now we're in college football season
or college football portal season, and you're starting to see
guys pop in the portal. And if a player has
a great year and they pop in the portal, it's
(05:19):
really simple. They're looking to.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Capitalize on it.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
If a coach gets fired, you can pretty much expect
ninety to ninety five percent of the players to put
themselves in the portal. And in basketball, centers and point
guards are the most valuable. In college football, quarterbacks obviously
have a huge value. And you got to figure out,
all right, if we're gonna go get one, we're gonna
(05:42):
get two. Were gonna overspend what happens if that guy
gets hurt and you have to find the right quarterback
for the right scheme that you're going to run.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I think that all of it is all of it
is super.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Super interesting because you sit there and you have all
your analytics, all your data, your connections to people you
want to go and get.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
You don't really know who else is in on a player.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
You don't really know how much they're being offered, and
oftentimes you actually call the other coach, Hey, are you
guys in on this guy? You know, you guys want
to tell us where you are financially, so we don't
get you know, we can be at the same place
and they can just choose where they want to go.
You know, I don't think there is a perfect science.
(06:24):
I mean I look out at our roster. I know
where our holes are, and I know where I thought
I filled them, you know, with a guy that leaves
after a couple of days, or a player that you
thought you had and then you got out bid, and
then you start kicking yourself where I should have spent
a little bit more money and got that guy, or
I should have done this, or I should have done that,
And you learn as you go.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
There's no exact science.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
It is just like recruiting in that just because they
look really good, you do investing.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
You find out the type of kid they are.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You like the program, but you put them in a
college game and sometimes they look really really different. Sometimes
the pressure of it, sometimes the money, sometimes other people
make more money affects them. So there is no it's
it's not a science even yet, which is you know,
ninety seven percent perfect.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
But you have to have a plan going in.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
You have to know what you want your roster to
look like and do the best job within your budget competing,
and then you got to decide am I going to
go over budget for a player or two? And if
you go over budget for a player or two, one
you better get them, and then two you better.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Make it work.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
All right, More to come, but let's uh, let's get
to our conversation with Dan Parnaman. Okay, so part one,
Week one, here's what I wanted to do DP. Okay,
you get to go on one topic. I get to
go on one topic.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Is that fair?
Speaker 1 (07:43):
That's fair?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Because I think I think we get caught up in
all the gullibi gobbly gook. There's like just so many
things that people want to know from your perspective, but
it gets lost, right And I'm not trying to like
stretch to stay out, but let's like, let's let's go deep.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Okay, let me let me start.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Let me start with mine because I know us, Hey so,
and I would appreciate.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
One of the strengths of you is you give the
real stuff, the honest truth.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
How does the recruitment process take place during the year
for agents?
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Yeah, for you work for is anything for high majors
who are coaching players or for agents for us?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Let's just start with you because it's you know, it's
the first person you've been in this thing since since
it's it's beginning and you know it's just you and
now you've expanded to it. So how does it How
does it work where a kid is not represented? And
do you seek them out for representation? Do they seek
(08:44):
you out? How does it work?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (08:46):
So I'll give the I'll give the real So the
game has changed a lot since I was the first
agent to do this in twenty twenty one, Right, the
game has changed a lot. That first year of NIL
and the transfer portal, there were guys I'd reach out
to and say, you know, hey, I'm an MBA agent,
(09:07):
then a college agent. You're averaging fourteen a game at
Utah Valley and i'd love to, you know, represent you.
Doesn't mean that you're going to enter the portal or not,
but i'd love to have a conversation with you and
you know, help you evaluate your options. And the kids
are like agent college, what are you talking about? I
met you know, I met McNee state. Why what's going on?
And I would have to explain to them how this
(09:28):
business works. That first year, ninety nine percent of guys
I was the first agent they'd ever talked to. Now,
if a player on a mid major average is eight
points a game, they have twenty agents in their inbox.
So now, like my staff, we don't do like cold outreach.
Right at that point, you get lost in the shuffle
and there's so many pretenders. There's so many like dude
(09:50):
you just got out of college who just like made
a website and now they're an agent or you know,
no offense to them. But like AAAU coaches who have
just like started their own you know, agencies or everything
in between that are all throwing darts at these guys.
We take them a strategy. Right. For us, it's building relationships.
You know, our current clients will introduce us to their friends.
(10:12):
AU coaches will ask us for help with guys in
their programs. And sometimes it's mid major coaches calling us
and saying, hey, we have this guy who's so good
he's for sure going to leave like he has every
agency recruiting them. Will you help him? Right? But rest assured.
I mean you know this, I'm sure any mid major,
low major player or D two player who's putting up
(10:32):
even like okay numbers and they have social media, their
inbox is flooded with twenty five agents that you've never heard, right,
just like every dude under the sun. And know what's
funny is everybody claims it's crazy how many agencies are
the best agency in college basketball? Or did the most
nil deals are number one in the sport of the
leader in the industry.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Right.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
So for us as an agency that tries to do
it the right way, right, like, if we're talking to
a guy, we can't till after the season start talking,
right if the guys that mercer averaging fifteen to nine,
you can't wait till after the season and start recruiting, right,
like that dude's going high major, he's potential pro and
you have to start that process. The right way to
(11:12):
do is to have conversations with their coaching staff and say, hey,
this player's for sure gone, right, do you want us
to talk to him now? Do you want us to
talk to him later? How do you want this process
to go? And we have great relationships across the college
basketball spectrum, so oftentimes they they'd rather us sign them
than some random agent. Right. But then there's sometimes that
(11:33):
coaches try to shield their guys from agents, and all
it does is play into the hands of bad agents. Right.
There was one kid last year that one of our
agents called who was trying to recruit, and he called.
It was at a CAA school and the kid wanted
to go with us, and he calls the head coach says, hey,
you know your player is going to be like all conference,
he's going to leave. You know, we want a recruiter.
(11:56):
He wants to go with us. A coach cursed him out, said,
I my guy doesn't need an agent. And the kid
ends up staying for like a quarter of the money.
It is having a worst year this year, right, Ruin
his chance for earning and ruin his future stock. And
sometimes these coaches are harming their players by trying to
shield them from agents because if they play into bad
(12:18):
decision making, or it plays into the agents who are
willing to subvert them and recruit the kid anyway. Right,
So like for mid major coaches, I encourage them, like,
let's be realists. If we have an all conference player,
they're gone unless you have like an outsized budget, right,
have conversations with their guys, ask them they need to
help with help them pick the right agent, rather than
acting like it's not happening. Right, But every single player
(12:41):
in high majors, you assume those dudes already have agents. Right,
You're not going to like start recruiting a starter at
Saint John's and he's going to be like agent, never
heard of it. Like, these dudes all have agents at
the high major level, right, But it's the high school, juco,
mid major, low major level where guys blow up and
they start getting recruited by agents and every single like
people are go to their jobs and their sharks, and
(13:02):
like all these TuS are getting blown up. For us,
we like to talk to coaches, have relationships with the
staffs do things the right way, not be shady about it.
But that is not the way most people go about it.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
So how do you know?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
How do you know which how many guys work underneath you?
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Now, my team, we have seventeen full time employees.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Seventeen, So how do you make sure you don't double up?
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (13:30):
We have communication, communication, communication, collaboration. It's the same thing
as a college staff, right, Like you don't want two
of your assistants offering the same kid and not knowing
they're recruiting the same kid. Like, teams function best when
everyone communicates and collaborates. Right. We have people on my
staff who specialize in international, people who specialize in high schools,
people specialize in jucoe, people who specialize in West coast,
(13:51):
East coast, And we all meet and we all talk,
we all communicate, We have group chats, we have team meetings. Like,
as a leader, I'm not flying around the country good people, Right,
That's not my job anymore. My job is to be
in the office and understand everything that's happening with our
entire staff and all of our clients. Right, it does
not fare to our current clients. And if I'm flying
(14:12):
to South Carolina to tell some seventeen year old old
one to sign. I'm not doing that. That's not what
we do anymore. Right. I had to do that when
I was getting started, But now my job is to
know everything's going on with my staff and our clients,
to watch games, to be aware of what's happening with
the guys we currently have. Like my priority is our
current guys, not acquiring new talent, right, but also have
to checking with all our agents and all our staff
(14:32):
every day and make sure I know everything that's going
on and make sure that they're communicating with each other.
And I think we do a really good job of it.
I've been at organizations before where the death of them
was lack of communication on staffs and staff's trying to
assistant coaches trying to compete with each other. We're trying
to one up each other, undermine each other. So I've
made it my priority at this company that will never
(14:55):
be the company that we doesn't have communication, collaboration and synergy.
And I think it serves our clients better because they
don't just have one agent. They have seventeen people on
their team and they all want them to succeed.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
The score Act, the Scorrect What are your biggest issues
with the Score Act?
Speaker 4 (15:14):
My biggest issue with the Score Act is that the
NCAA paid nine million dollars to push it through, because
nine million dollars on lobbying dollars to try to get
it through, but showed their desperation and how much they
wanted it to happen for their own benefit. My problems
with the Score Act are it is it is presented
(15:37):
under the guise of saving college sports or helping athletes
and helping kids, when it is completely one sided in
just helping the NCAA athletic directors and school presidents. How
sell Okay, so let me break it down. Within the
Score Act, which fell apart, is not going to happen anyway.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Within the Score Act, they are making a variety of
is that they're trying to athlete, it's the best interest
of the athlete, but in reality it's exploitative and it's
bad for the athletes. Right. They're trying to cap what
schools can spend on revenue sharing. Not only what schools
can spend, but they're trying to prevent boosters who want
to give money to players who want to help build
(16:18):
their programs. They're trying to stop them, making that illegal,
making that against the rules right for those boosters to
spend money. So again, if I sell my company for
a billion dollars and the one thing I love more
than anything is Michigan basketball, and I can buy all
the Roles Royces and all the vacation homes I want,
but the thing that makes me happy is Michigan basketball
winning games. And I want to spend ten million dollars
(16:39):
a year on Michigan basketball to help them build a
great team to bring me and my family joy. They're
trying to make that illegal, even with the state laws
say you can do it, Federal law say you can
do it, but they're trying to make it against the rules.
Who does that benefit doesn't benefit the athlete, doesn't matter
if its benefit the fans, doesn't matterfit the coaching staff.
But benefits is the administrators who want that ten million
dollars donation to go facilities instead of in players poets. Right.
(17:02):
It benefits school presidents who want to put that towards
staffing and their endowment instead of athletes pockets. And it
benefits of the NCAAA and the conference commissioners because Ultimately,
these athletic programs are going to be private businesses. We
just saw it with you Taget and half a billion
dollar investment. We saw with Kentucky moving their athletic department
into an LLC. These athletic programs are going to be
(17:25):
taking private equity money, private investments, and ultimately, franchises are
worth more when you pay the labor less. So they're saying, oh,
we have to save the sport, pay the players less
because this spending is untenable. Meanwhile, that's on one hand,
the other hand, they're taking half billion dollar private equity
investments at a certain valuation, and that valuation is much
(17:47):
better if you don't have to pay the labor what
they're worth. So my primary issue with the Score Act
is it's sneaky, it's slimy, and it's gross. They're using
this whole like, oh, save college sports, like you know,
please eating a heart thing. In reality, they're trying to
pay labor less so that their franchises are worth more
when they take private equity money, and ultimately these are
all going to be private, properly health franchises. Additionally, there
(18:13):
are so many other tiny little things like they're trying
to get an antitrust exemption. So essentially players can never
sue to become employees. Right, MBA, you have a union
their employees. NFL, you have a union their employees, and
you have a union, they're employees. Well they're not only
trying to make it so the athletes can't be employees,
they're making it illegal. They want to make it a
legal for the athletes to ever shoe to become employees. Well,
(18:34):
you can't collectly collectively bargain if you don't have a union.
If you can have a union if you don't have employees.
So they're just trying to do everything they can. They're
paying congress members to everything they can to keep athletes
in their place for as long as possible. And it's
our job to inform people about this and blow it up.
And thank god for the Congressional Black Caucus who recognize
what was happening and blew this thing up so the
(18:55):
score app will never never make it to the Senate floor.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
What would your proposal be if I put DP in charge?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
What would you do? Because I know I know you're
thinking free market.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
I think ultimately football and basketball have to be set
with in other sports. No, they can't all be treated
the same way. Football and basketball players are getting paid
hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions from these
schools and revenue staring dollars. In what world are they
not employees? Like you can you can fudget however you
want and call them this, call them that these are employees.
(19:35):
We have guys making seven figures from Power five schools
getting paid from the schools, and what world are they
not employees? They should be the issue.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
The issue with them being employees is the threats and
the tax exempt status.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
It's a portion of it.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Also state schools, when you employee somebody, there's litany of
background checks and you know, like at my school, we
unless you do an emergency hire, you have to have
a committee for every person who's hired.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
It's so backlock.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Can you imagine if you're doing that for entire basketball
and on football team.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
But I'm not saying it's going to be easy, and
it might take years to like smooth out the system.
But the alternative is what we currently have, which is
either an exploit otative a processive system, or complete free
market which is chaotic.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
You still think this is an exploitative system.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
I think if you if you impose an artificial revenue
share cap and say, uh, this is all you can
spend on players, and you can spend whatever you want
on coaches, whatever you want on facilities, whatever you want
on marketing, but you can only play with players this much.
And that's the only team that's capped. Yes, it's exploitative.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
If you're saying I will tell I will tell you
that for professional sports franchises, and granted it's collectively bargained,
but when they talk about football and basketball revenue, that's
not the actual true revenues, right. That's that's one of
the the arguments that athletes make and there and their
unions make all the time, is like, hey, you know,
all these professional sports teams claim their losing money. They're like,
(21:00):
they're not losing money, not losing money at all, not
just gaining them on the franchise. But what they do
is they clarified as basketball revenue. At basketball revenue, I
would say that there's more schools than you think of
that aren't making money. Then you imagine I don't think
attendance is down. Again, there's clearly money there at the
(21:22):
highest level. I think the fear is that you end
up with seventy five or so schools and everybody else
has to drop to D two because they can't compete.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
And you know, then you have to do things like.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Our level where you're playing three to seven guarantee games.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
Here, So two things on that note. You're right that
there are salary caps and other professional sports, and yes
they're collectively barking. But here's the here's the incongruency here. NBA,
the average coach makes seven million dollars and the roster's
one hundred and fifty billion or so, And the average
(22:00):
coach makes seven million, the rosters three hundred million. Power
for the head coach makes seven million in the roster,
they want to make it four million for basketball or
ten million for football. So in pro sports league.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
They don't all make seven million.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Now, Dan, hey, even if it's three million to ten million, Okay,
that's a three to one even in the best case
here three to one NBA, NFL, it's a one to
twenty or one to thirty ratio between coach and roster.
And like at Ohio State or Alabama, the coaching pool
is making more than the player pool. No, yes, I've
done the math. I've added up the math at Alabama,
(22:37):
you add the football coaching staff and the basketball coaching
staff salary, it is collectively more than twenty point five
million dollars that they are allowed to spend across football
and basketball. So you have ninety athletes making collectively less
than twenty coaches.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
But Obama's spending in the thirty million dollar range for football.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Right they were, which I think is fair. But in
a new world where they're trying to cap it's revshare
cap whe's twenty point five million, they're trying to say a.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Huge you can still they still have nil on top
of that all those those level schools have.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
But nil on top of that has to go through
the College Sports Commission And.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
How many how many of those things money along? How
many of these things have gotten dinged A lot.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
We've had a number of them that have gotten that
have gotten blocked, like even at small five thousand dollars
levels that have gotten blocked. So and then that essentially
encourages money laundering. Instead of saying, hey, this uh, this
booster is going to pay you for this appearance and
that's the fair rate, they're saying, no, you have to
work it through other companies or public companies and find
ways to like it's like the money is getting from
(23:34):
point A to point B and they're just making you
go through all these hoops that are fake, and you
know whatever, it's ridiculous and that system will never last.
But my point is that you can spend twenty they're
trying to say you can spend twenty point five million
for the entire football basketball roster. But if you want
to spend fifty million for the coaches, you can do that.
That's where it's not fair.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Okay, So well you can do that.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
You can do that in in the NFL and the
NBA as well. There is no cap on which is
salaries there either, Right.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
But the cap on the player salaries is reasonable. It's
one hundred and thirty to three hundred million.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
It's based upon a percent it's based upon a percentage
of the revenue of the league.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Right. And if what we saw this past summer in
the basketball portal was a free market starting to materialize,
that would have shown us where a real reasonable cap
would have been. We saw Power five schools spending between
five million and fifteen million on the portal, right, and
some of those schools might be looking and saying, you
know what, we should start paying our coach one to
(24:33):
two million so we could have a little more in
the player pool. That's what's happening.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I agree, right, I agree.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
But now when they say your cap here, okay, well
we have to spend more somehow, so let's spend more
on the coaching. So it's it's feeding money to coaches
and athletic directors and school presidents and facilities by limiting
how much you have to spend on the labor on
the players. If you let the market do its thing
and cap it at a place that's like a reasonable
cap and not this like artificially low thing, then it's
going to be fine and where it will said.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I'm going to tell you though, if the if the
basketball cap is four or five million dollars or a
little bit more in the Big East Strikers, they don't
have football like that. That's realistically, you're not making five
million dollars in your college basketball.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Let me explain why that's like called a red herring,
like that's not a fair argument. Here's why. In pro
sports they're self contained businesses. The business is the is
the franchise, right, So the Chicago Bulls have P and
L and that's the whole business. Right for Wisconsin Green Bay.
The Atlantic Department is an extension, is a marketing vehicle
(25:36):
for the university itself, which is a much more profitable enterprise. Right.
And you're a public university, so that's one thing. There's
also private universities which are another which are more profitable.
But ultimately, when Florida Atlantic made it to the final four,
it wasn't about the ticket sales. It was about the
ten percent increase in applications they got in the next
year because all of a sudden they're a much more
(25:58):
popular school. Why why does everyone know what Duke is
because they're basketball team? Right? Why do people go to Alabama?
They want SEC football? So the actual business is the
school and the Atlantic Department is in marketing vehicle. So
my point is you could spend a million dollars on
a TV ad for University of Alabama. But if you
want to spend that on marketing via athletes who are
(26:19):
walking living billboards or their social media accounts promoting the university,
that's where it's illegal. That's where you draw the line.
You're spending twenty million on these football players and basketball players.
You are getting exponentially more. You know, twenty million is
like you know, forty primetime TV commercials. You're getting hours
(26:39):
and hours of primetime million multimillion viewers every single week
on their football and basketball games. They're not being paid adequately.
So basketball and football revenue is not the only metric.
It's how much revenue are you are you value you're
bringing to the school via marketing. That's and that's what
you can't truly measure. But that's why you have to
let the market be free and let the schools decide
what it's worth to them.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Where are you on two year deals? I love them?
Speaker 4 (27:06):
And another point I made I made this on Twitter
the other day. This hard cap they're trying to impose
YEP is going to make it really hard to do
multi year deals because people are going to want to
clear cap space for the next year. In the NBA,
you have bird rights and earlier bird rights, which essentially
means you can go over the cap to retain your
current roster. We're going to see a world where everyone
(27:29):
everyone's capped at three four million and power five and
you sign a multi year deal and then you have
another guy that you want to sign, but you're like, oh,
we're already capped out. So now you have a really
talented freshion that you have to tell the walk that
wants to stay there. Because in the current world, without
a repsure cap, you can just go to a booster
and say, hey, I need an extra half a million
to retain this really good player. He wants to stay here, Great,
(27:49):
we keep them. Now we're forcing a world where teams
to be clearing their roster to clear cap space for
a big free agency Yere and other schools that can't
retain their current talent talent because they're apped out legally.
So like, multi year deals are great, but we're going
to start seeing less of them and people are afraid
of not having cap space in the future.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
What about the buyout to do when you negotiate a
multi year deal for one of your players, does that
have a buyout?
Speaker 4 (28:14):
This year we had way more buyots than we've ever had.
This year. I had a number of schools that agree
to do the buyout, and buyouts work if all parties
are on board, Like I said this on your show before,
Like if you agree to a number with a kid
or a multi year deal, or even a one year
deal whatever, and they get the papers after you've already agreed,
and they and they read defined print and there's a
buyout that's fucked up. But if you know, I have
(28:36):
a kid right now is on a two year, one
point six million dollar deal, okay, and we agreed on
certain buyout terms for both sides. Hey, if you guys
want to terminate it and not on the next year,
this week, you have to pay him. Hey, if he
wants to leave for free agency next year and turn
down the second year one hundred thousand dollars option, this
is what he pays you. Right, we all agree to
all parties new the terms, we agreed to it. Everyone's
(28:56):
happy with it. And you know, he's performing really well
and he's probably working more them that next year. He's
gonna have to pay it to give himself out, and
we're cool with that. We wanted the security of having
that second year, and now they gave us that security,
and now they're going to reap reward of it by
doing a fair deal. And I think again, I said
it before, we were in a world and we're still
someone in the world with where the coaches and gms
(29:19):
are coaches. They're not people who have run professional teams before.
But now as we see more and more professionals coming
from pro sports coming into these college programs, we're going
to start seeing more creative deal structures because there have
been times in the past I'm trying to explain how
these creative deal structures work and they just like I
get dead eyes right, people don't even know how a
complihenment what I'm talking about. But the ones you can
(29:41):
get into the weeds and understand how complex deal structures
can actually benefit athletes and their program. They're winning and
they're doing really well, and they're creating much more sustainable
businesses for the university. But again, a lot of what
the NCAA is trying to do with the CSC and
the Score Act puts a lot of that ability for
a organic ecosystem to blossom. It puts a lot of
(30:03):
that at risk.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Awesome. So that's this is the first one.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Okay, so score Act and I did kind of double
up on it because I want to know where you
were on biots, But it was kind of to tee
you up on biots because I know you had talked
about those multi year deals. So every Thursday. Okay, we're
going to record one of these and pop it.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Up in the pod.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
And if you have any questions for Dan or for
myself as to what it's really like inside the world
of college athletics, especially college basketball, there's no better resource
than Dan Parliament.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
The just there just isn't.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
And I can help you a little bit because obviously
I'm in it. We're at a lower level than the
high majors, but there's still the same level movement, the
same kind of discussions. It's just a different decimal point
in a different or lack of a comma that that
may occur at the at the other level the level.
Happy hanukkah, this is this is awesome and uh we'll
(30:56):
talk again soon.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
That's it for this edition of All Ball.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
If you're listening to this, you're driving around, it's Christmas Eve,
maybe Christmas Day, you're getting ready for the new year.
And I want to relay this message to so many
of you who have messaged me on ig, messaged me
on Twitter, message me on TikTok wherever you get this,
or message me when we're doing the radio show. I've
done national radio for twenty three years it's awesome. It's
(31:26):
a dream. I grew up dreaming of doing three things,
you know, playing basketball on TV, playing professionally playing in college,
coaching basketball in college, and broadcasting.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
And now I'm doing all three.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
So being in your speakers, I mean, I'll give you
an example of one of my closest friends in.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Like most famous friends is Darius Rucker.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
And I met Darius Rucker at his concert and I
set it up with the promoter.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
It was at the mohegan Son. We went back to.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
His dressing room and he's like, dog, he knew my kids' names,
he knew everything about me, And I'm like, how does
this guy, this guy research me? Oh, Darius, his kids
were school age. My show's on the afternoon. He listened
to me picking up his kids at school every day
when I was on ESPN Radio. We were friends, we
just hadn't met yet. So and you know, now twenty
(32:29):
years later, I'm really close friends with Darius. I've gone
everywhere with him and played at his golf tournament, hung
out with him.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
It's a wonderful human being.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
But that friendship was really built in a relationship built
with radio, and I think it's been built with many
of you.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
So I'm not going anywhere.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
I'm just trying to be more intelligent about things, make smarter,
sounder decisions, be more precise and concise with my time.
I hope you and your family have a very, very
merry Christmas and a happy New Year. Hope you tell
your friends to download this podcast so that we can
keep bumping them out and keeping giving a good sports
chatter in the meantime.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Merry Christmas. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is all Ball
Hey, what up. Welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlie. This is
all ball, all right. So what you heard by now,
and I don't.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Know if we've talked about this in the pod is
I'm not gonna do the live radio show. This feed
will be my outlet to the world. So we're gonna
keep adding things in tigre with things. But in the meantime,
what you do need to know is every Thursday, and
obviously we're putting this thing out on the was this
Christmas Eve? Yeah, we'll put this out on Christmas Eve,
(00:33):
which is a Wednesday. Every Thursday, we're gonna have Dan
Poneman on the show. Dan Poneman is the owner proprietor
of We've. We've is I think the biggest college basketball
an IL agency working, or if not, it's the most
interesting one. And Dan I have a great relationship. So
(00:53):
what it is, what this is a place for is
for you to get educated on the reality of the space,
the reality of the space, instead of hearing from it
from people on TV, none of whom I believe, well
maybe with some of the fire football coaches, but there's
no basketball coach that I believe that's on TV. That's
(01:14):
been fired in this new nil era. Who can tell
you how it really works, what really happens, some of
the pitfalls of it, some of the challenges of it,
some of the good things about it as well. So
Dan Ponaman is going to join me every Thursday here
on the show. But the Personal Life Update is not
going to do the live radio show press pause on it.
(01:35):
You know, like perception reality two different things. But you
also you have to win sometimes the perception battle to
win the reality battle perception from some of b how
can you do two jobs? How can you do love radio?
It's like it was fine. The parts that come up
short are the rest of your life. You know, this
is a really random one. I was thinking about this today.
I have never taken my dogs. So at Green Bay
(02:00):
we have the campus. Part of it used to be
an eighteen old golf course. There was a nine old
golf course. Then the last nine holes were made into
this incredible cross country of course. So I not out
of season. I take my dogs there. They run it,
They love it. One of my dogs gets in the
you know, the ponds and chases the.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Ducks and whatever.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I don't get to do that in basketball season, you know,
just don't get to have lunch with my players unless
they have it in my office when I'm working.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So I'm gonna take it.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Use the benefits of only locking in, only holding out
of basketball, and then on off times we'll do podcasts
and they'll be really really good and you know, kind
of the less is more sort of variety. We'll have
more of these podcasts than we've had previously, but less
than a five day a week grind. And also, I
(02:51):
don't feel like I need to only discuss the Dallas
Cowboys and you know, Tom Brady and Lebron James and
all the topics that Daily Radio TV feel compelled to
do because the numbers tell you got to talk about those.
It's not that what I can talk about not popular things,
but we can be more exactly what we want to
(03:12):
get to. Here's where we are in college basketball. With
our season. We played three conference games. We're one and two.
I'm really disappointed in our Robert Morris loss. So one
and two is a game below where we think we
should be. We're six and eight overall, coming out of
non conference where we were five and seven, and of
that five and seven, Yale was a game that we
came from behind, had a chance to win. Minnesota went
(03:33):
to overtime very well, could have won that one, and
the Campbell game. The last game was really disappointing. Our
guys just didn't fight back in the second half. And
credit them, they played great, made a ton of shots,
played great basketball, pubbled.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Us inside, and then kicked it out to open threes.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
So for me, I'd say we're a game or two
behind what my personal expectations are of my team. For
people out there, I think think we're ahead or oh
my gosh, they're not going to lose every game this
year the way it felt like they lost every game.
I think everyone can see that we're on a track
to being a good basketball team, a good program, and
(04:14):
we got to learn to do a couple of little
things if we want to win more of these league
games and give ourselves a chance when the rise in
league tournament starts. As for college basketball, you're seeing a
lot of these wild swings and big losses, and I
think many of us are in the same boat where
we're still trying to figure out our rosters. I mean,
I have two players that I want to play more,
(04:36):
but I feel like if I'm playing them. Then I'm
playing either too many guys or I got to sit
somebody who has consistently brought more effort and physicality, which
is what we need. So you're still kind of trying
to figure out your roster. So you get the personal update,
the team update. Our guys are all home for three days.
They'll be back night of twenty six, twenty seven. If
we get after we don't play until the first of January.
(04:57):
Don't get up to the first of January. As for
the nil world, and we'll get to some of this
with Dan. You know, now we're in college football season
or college football portal season, and you're starting to see
guys pop in the portal. And if a player has
a great year and they pop in the portal, it's
(05:19):
really simple. They're looking to.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Capitalize on it.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
If a coach gets fired, you can pretty much expect
ninety to ninety five percent of the players to put
themselves in the portal. And in basketball, centers and point
guards are the most valuable. In college football, quarterbacks obviously
have a huge value. And you got to figure out,
all right, if we're gonna go get one, we're gonna
(05:42):
get two. Were gonna overspend what happens if that guy
gets hurt and you have to find the right quarterback
for the right scheme that you're going to run.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I think that all of it is all of it
is super.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Super interesting because you sit there and you have all
your analytics, all your data, your connections to people you
want to go and get.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
You don't really know who else is in on a player.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
You don't really know how much they're being offered, and
oftentimes you actually call the other coach, Hey, are you
guys in on this guy? You know, you guys want
to tell us where you are financially, so we don't
get you know, we can be at the same place
and they can just choose where they want to go.
You know, I don't think there is a perfect science.
(06:24):
I mean I look out at our roster. I know
where our holes are, and I know where I thought
I filled them, you know, with a guy that leaves
after a couple of days, or a player that you
thought you had and then you got out bid, and
then you start kicking yourself where I should have spent
a little bit more money and got that guy, or
I should have done this, or I should have done that,
And you learn as you go.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
There's no exact science.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
It is just like recruiting in that just because they
look really good, you do investing.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
You find out the type of kid they are.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You like the program, but you put them in a
college game and sometimes they look really really different. Sometimes
the pressure of it, sometimes the money, sometimes other people
make more money affects them. So there is no it's
it's not a science even yet, which is you know,
ninety seven percent perfect.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
But you have to have a plan going in.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
You have to know what you want your roster to
look like and do the best job within your budget competing,
and then you got to decide am I going to
go over budget for a player or two? And if
you go over budget for a player or two, one
you better get them, and then two you better.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Make it work.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
All right, More to come, but let's uh, let's get
to our conversation with Dan Parnaman. Okay, so part one,
Week one, here's what I wanted to do DP. Okay,
you get to go on one topic. I get to
go on one topic.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Is that fair?
Speaker 1 (07:43):
That's fair?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Because I think I think we get caught up in
all the gullibi gobbly gook. There's like just so many
things that people want to know from your perspective, but
it gets lost, right And I'm not trying to like
stretch to stay out, but let's like, let's let's go deep.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Okay, let me let me start.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Let me start with mine because I know us, Hey so,
and I would appreciate.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
One of the strengths of you is you give the
real stuff, the honest truth.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
How does the recruitment process take place during the year
for agents?
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Yeah, for you work for is anything for high majors
who are coaching players or for agents for us?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Let's just start with you because it's you know, it's
the first person you've been in this thing since since
it's it's beginning and you know it's just you and
now you've expanded to it. So how does it How
does it work where a kid is not represented? And
do you seek them out for representation? Do they seek
(08:44):
you out? How does it work?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (08:46):
So I'll give the I'll give the real So the
game has changed a lot since I was the first
agent to do this in twenty twenty one, Right, the
game has changed a lot. That first year of NIL
and the transfer portal, there were guys I'd reach out
to and say, you know, hey, I'm an MBA agent,
(09:07):
then a college agent. You're averaging fourteen a game at
Utah Valley and i'd love to, you know, represent you.
Doesn't mean that you're going to enter the portal or not,
but i'd love to have a conversation with you and
you know, help you evaluate your options. And the kids
are like agent college, what are you talking about? I
met you know, I met McNee state. Why what's going on?
And I would have to explain to them how this
(09:28):
business works. That first year, ninety nine percent of guys
I was the first agent they'd ever talked to. Now,
if a player on a mid major average is eight
points a game, they have twenty agents in their inbox.
So now, like my staff, we don't do like cold outreach.
Right at that point, you get lost in the shuffle
and there's so many pretenders. There's so many like dude
(09:50):
you just got out of college who just like made
a website and now they're an agent or you know,
no offense to them. But like AAAU coaches who have
just like started their own you know, agencies or everything
in between that are all throwing darts at these guys.
We take them a strategy. Right. For us, it's building relationships.
You know, our current clients will introduce us to their friends.
(10:12):
AU coaches will ask us for help with guys in
their programs. And sometimes it's mid major coaches calling us
and saying, hey, we have this guy who's so good
he's for sure going to leave like he has every
agency recruiting them. Will you help him? Right? But rest assured.
I mean you know this, I'm sure any mid major,
low major player or D two player who's putting up
(10:32):
even like okay numbers and they have social media, their
inbox is flooded with twenty five agents that you've never heard, right,
just like every dude under the sun. And know what's
funny is everybody claims it's crazy how many agencies are
the best agency in college basketball? Or did the most
nil deals are number one in the sport of the
leader in the industry.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Right.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
So for us as an agency that tries to do
it the right way, right, like, if we're talking to
a guy, we can't till after the season start talking,
right if the guys that mercer averaging fifteen to nine,
you can't wait till after the season and start recruiting, right,
like that dude's going high major, he's potential pro and
you have to start that process. The right way to
(11:12):
do is to have conversations with their coaching staff and say, hey,
this player's for sure gone, right, do you want us
to talk to him now? Do you want us to
talk to him later? How do you want this process
to go? And we have great relationships across the college
basketball spectrum, so oftentimes they they'd rather us sign them
than some random agent. Right. But then there's sometimes that
(11:33):
coaches try to shield their guys from agents, and all
it does is play into the hands of bad agents. Right.
There was one kid last year that one of our
agents called who was trying to recruit, and he called.
It was at a CAA school and the kid wanted
to go with us, and he calls the head coach says, hey,
you know your player is going to be like all conference,
he's going to leave. You know, we want a recruiter.
(11:56):
He wants to go with us. A coach cursed him out, said,
I my guy doesn't need an agent. And the kid
ends up staying for like a quarter of the money.
It is having a worst year this year, right, Ruin
his chance for earning and ruin his future stock. And
sometimes these coaches are harming their players by trying to
shield them from agents because if they play into bad
(12:18):
decision making, or it plays into the agents who are
willing to subvert them and recruit the kid anyway. Right,
So like for mid major coaches, I encourage them, like,
let's be realists. If we have an all conference player,
they're gone unless you have like an outsized budget, right,
have conversations with their guys, ask them they need to
help with help them pick the right agent, rather than
acting like it's not happening. Right, But every single player
(12:41):
in high majors, you assume those dudes already have agents. Right,
You're not going to like start recruiting a starter at
Saint John's and he's going to be like agent, never
heard of it. Like, these dudes all have agents at
the high major level, right, But it's the high school, juco,
mid major, low major level where guys blow up and
they start getting recruited by agents and every single like
people are go to their jobs and their sharks, and
(13:02):
like all these TuS are getting blown up. For us,
we like to talk to coaches, have relationships with the
staffs do things the right way, not be shady about it.
But that is not the way most people go about it.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
So how do you know?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
How do you know which how many guys work underneath you?
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Now, my team, we have seventeen full time employees.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Seventeen, So how do you make sure you don't double up?
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (13:30):
We have communication, communication, communication, collaboration. It's the same thing
as a college staff, right, Like you don't want two
of your assistants offering the same kid and not knowing
they're recruiting the same kid. Like, teams function best when
everyone communicates and collaborates. Right. We have people on my
staff who specialize in international, people who specialize in high schools,
people specialize in jucoe, people who specialize in West coast,
(13:51):
East coast, And we all meet and we all talk,
we all communicate, We have group chats, we have team meetings. Like,
as a leader, I'm not flying around the country good people, Right,
That's not my job anymore. My job is to be
in the office and understand everything that's happening with our
entire staff and all of our clients. Right, it does
not fare to our current clients. And if I'm flying
(14:12):
to South Carolina to tell some seventeen year old old
one to sign. I'm not doing that. That's not what
we do anymore. Right. I had to do that when
I was getting started, But now my job is to
know everything's going on with my staff and our clients,
to watch games, to be aware of what's happening with
the guys we currently have. Like my priority is our
current guys, not acquiring new talent, right, but also have
to checking with all our agents and all our staff
(14:32):
every day and make sure I know everything that's going
on and make sure that they're communicating with each other.
And I think we do a really good job of it.
I've been at organizations before where the death of them
was lack of communication on staffs and staff's trying to
assistant coaches trying to compete with each other. We're trying
to one up each other, undermine each other. So I've
made it my priority at this company that will never
(14:55):
be the company that we doesn't have communication, collaboration and synergy.
And I think it serves our clients better because they
don't just have one agent. They have seventeen people on
their team and they all want them to succeed.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
The score Act, the Scorrect What are your biggest issues
with the Score Act?
Speaker 4 (15:14):
My biggest issue with the Score Act is that the
NCAA paid nine million dollars to push it through, because
nine million dollars on lobbying dollars to try to get
it through, but showed their desperation and how much they
wanted it to happen for their own benefit. My problems
with the Score Act are it is it is presented
(15:37):
under the guise of saving college sports or helping athletes
and helping kids, when it is completely one sided in
just helping the NCAA athletic directors and school presidents. How
sell Okay, so let me break it down. Within the
Score Act, which fell apart, is not going to happen anyway.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Within the Score Act, they are making a variety of
is that they're trying to athlete, it's the best interest
of the athlete, but in reality it's exploitative and it's
bad for the athletes. Right. They're trying to cap what
schools can spend on revenue sharing. Not only what schools
can spend, but they're trying to prevent boosters who want
to give money to players who want to help build
(16:18):
their programs. They're trying to stop them, making that illegal,
making that against the rules right for those boosters to
spend money. So again, if I sell my company for
a billion dollars and the one thing I love more
than anything is Michigan basketball, and I can buy all
the Roles Royces and all the vacation homes I want,
but the thing that makes me happy is Michigan basketball
winning games. And I want to spend ten million dollars
(16:39):
a year on Michigan basketball to help them build a
great team to bring me and my family joy. They're
trying to make that illegal, even with the state laws
say you can do it, Federal law say you can
do it, but they're trying to make it against the rules.
Who does that benefit doesn't benefit the athlete, doesn't matter
if its benefit the fans, doesn't matterfit the coaching staff.
But benefits is the administrators who want that ten million
dollars donation to go facilities instead of in players poets. Right.
(17:02):
It benefits school presidents who want to put that towards
staffing and their endowment instead of athletes pockets. And it
benefits of the NCAAA and the conference commissioners because Ultimately,
these athletic programs are going to be private businesses. We
just saw it with you Taget and half a billion
dollar investment. We saw with Kentucky moving their athletic department
into an LLC. These athletic programs are going to be
(17:25):
taking private equity money, private investments, and ultimately, franchises are
worth more when you pay the labor less. So they're saying, oh,
we have to save the sport, pay the players less
because this spending is untenable. Meanwhile, that's on one hand,
the other hand, they're taking half billion dollar private equity
investments at a certain valuation, and that valuation is much
(17:47):
better if you don't have to pay the labor what
they're worth. So my primary issue with the Score Act
is it's sneaky, it's slimy, and it's gross. They're using
this whole like, oh, save college sports, like you know,
please eating a heart thing. In reality, they're trying to
pay labor less so that their franchises are worth more
when they take private equity money, and ultimately these are
all going to be private, properly health franchises. Additionally, there
(18:13):
are so many other tiny little things like they're trying
to get an antitrust exemption. So essentially players can never
sue to become employees. Right, MBA, you have a union
their employees. NFL, you have a union their employees, and
you have a union, they're employees. Well they're not only
trying to make it so the athletes can't be employees,
they're making it illegal. They want to make it a
legal for the athletes to ever shoe to become employees. Well,
(18:34):
you can't collectly collectively bargain if you don't have a union.
If you can have a union if you don't have employees.
So they're just trying to do everything they can. They're
paying congress members to everything they can to keep athletes
in their place for as long as possible. And it's
our job to inform people about this and blow it up.
And thank god for the Congressional Black Caucus who recognize
what was happening and blew this thing up so the
(18:55):
score app will never never make it to the Senate floor.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
What would your proposal be if I put DP in charge?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
What would you do? Because I know I know you're
thinking free market.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
I think ultimately football and basketball have to be set
with in other sports. No, they can't all be treated
the same way. Football and basketball players are getting paid
hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions from these
schools and revenue staring dollars. In what world are they
not employees? Like you can you can fudget however you
want and call them this, call them that these are employees.
(19:35):
We have guys making seven figures from Power five schools
getting paid from the schools, and what world are they
not employees? They should be the issue.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
The issue with them being employees is the threats and
the tax exempt status.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
It's a portion of it.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Also state schools, when you employee somebody, there's litany of
background checks and you know, like at my school, we
unless you do an emergency hire, you have to have
a committee for every person who's hired.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
It's so backlock.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Can you imagine if you're doing that for entire basketball
and on football team.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
But I'm not saying it's going to be easy, and
it might take years to like smooth out the system.
But the alternative is what we currently have, which is
either an exploit otative a processive system, or complete free
market which is chaotic.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
You still think this is an exploitative system.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
I think if you if you impose an artificial revenue
share cap and say, uh, this is all you can
spend on players, and you can spend whatever you want
on coaches, whatever you want on facilities, whatever you want
on marketing, but you can only play with players this much.
And that's the only team that's capped. Yes, it's exploitative.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
If you're saying I will tell I will tell you
that for professional sports franchises, and granted it's collectively bargained,
but when they talk about football and basketball revenue, that's
not the actual true revenues, right. That's that's one of
the the arguments that athletes make and there and their
unions make all the time, is like, hey, you know,
all these professional sports teams claim their losing money. They're like,
(21:00):
they're not losing money, not losing money at all, not
just gaining them on the franchise. But what they do
is they clarified as basketball revenue. At basketball revenue, I
would say that there's more schools than you think of
that aren't making money. Then you imagine I don't think
attendance is down. Again, there's clearly money there at the
(21:22):
highest level. I think the fear is that you end
up with seventy five or so schools and everybody else
has to drop to D two because they can't compete.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
And you know, then you have to do things like.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Our level where you're playing three to seven guarantee games.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
Here, So two things on that note. You're right that
there are salary caps and other professional sports, and yes
they're collectively barking. But here's the here's the incongruency here. NBA,
the average coach makes seven million dollars and the roster's
one hundred and fifty billion or so, And the average
(22:00):
coach makes seven million, the rosters three hundred million. Power
for the head coach makes seven million in the roster,
they want to make it four million for basketball or
ten million for football. So in pro sports league.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
They don't all make seven million.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Now, Dan, hey, even if it's three million to ten million, Okay,
that's a three to one even in the best case
here three to one NBA, NFL, it's a one to
twenty or one to thirty ratio between coach and roster.
And like at Ohio State or Alabama, the coaching pool
is making more than the player pool. No, yes, I've
done the math. I've added up the math at Alabama,
(22:37):
you add the football coaching staff and the basketball coaching
staff salary, it is collectively more than twenty point five
million dollars that they are allowed to spend across football
and basketball. So you have ninety athletes making collectively less
than twenty coaches.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
But Obama's spending in the thirty million dollar range for football.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Right they were, which I think is fair. But in
a new world where they're trying to cap it's revshare
cap whe's twenty point five million, they're trying to say a.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Huge you can still they still have nil on top
of that all those those level schools have.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
But nil on top of that has to go through
the College Sports Commission And.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
How many how many of those things money along? How
many of these things have gotten dinged A lot.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
We've had a number of them that have gotten that
have gotten blocked, like even at small five thousand dollars
levels that have gotten blocked. So and then that essentially
encourages money laundering. Instead of saying, hey, this uh, this
booster is going to pay you for this appearance and
that's the fair rate, they're saying, no, you have to
work it through other companies or public companies and find
ways to like it's like the money is getting from
(23:34):
point A to point B and they're just making you
go through all these hoops that are fake, and you
know whatever, it's ridiculous and that system will never last.
But my point is that you can spend twenty they're
trying to say you can spend twenty point five million
for the entire football basketball roster. But if you want
to spend fifty million for the coaches, you can do that.
That's where it's not fair.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Okay, So well you can do that.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
You can do that in in the NFL and the
NBA as well. There is no cap on which is
salaries there either, Right.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
But the cap on the player salaries is reasonable. It's
one hundred and thirty to three hundred million.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
It's based upon a percent it's based upon a percentage
of the revenue of the league.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Right. And if what we saw this past summer in
the basketball portal was a free market starting to materialize,
that would have shown us where a real reasonable cap
would have been. We saw Power five schools spending between
five million and fifteen million on the portal, right, and
some of those schools might be looking and saying, you
know what, we should start paying our coach one to
(24:33):
two million so we could have a little more in
the player pool. That's what's happening.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I agree, right, I agree.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
But now when they say your cap here, okay, well
we have to spend more somehow, so let's spend more
on the coaching. So it's it's feeding money to coaches
and athletic directors and school presidents and facilities by limiting
how much you have to spend on the labor on
the players. If you let the market do its thing
and cap it at a place that's like a reasonable
cap and not this like artificially low thing, then it's
going to be fine and where it will said.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I'm going to tell you though, if the if the
basketball cap is four or five million dollars or a
little bit more in the Big East Strikers, they don't
have football like that. That's realistically, you're not making five
million dollars in your college basketball.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Let me explain why that's like called a red herring,
like that's not a fair argument. Here's why. In pro
sports they're self contained businesses. The business is the is
the franchise, right, So the Chicago Bulls have P and
L and that's the whole business. Right for Wisconsin Green Bay.
The Atlantic Department is an extension, is a marketing vehicle
(25:36):
for the university itself, which is a much more profitable enterprise. Right.
And you're a public university, so that's one thing. There's
also private universities which are another which are more profitable.
But ultimately, when Florida Atlantic made it to the final four,
it wasn't about the ticket sales. It was about the
ten percent increase in applications they got in the next
year because all of a sudden they're a much more
(25:58):
popular school. Why why does everyone know what Duke is
because they're basketball team? Right? Why do people go to Alabama?
They want SEC football? So the actual business is the
school and the Atlantic Department is in marketing vehicle. So
my point is you could spend a million dollars on
a TV ad for University of Alabama. But if you
want to spend that on marketing via athletes who are
(26:19):
walking living billboards or their social media accounts promoting the university,
that's where it's illegal. That's where you draw the line.
You're spending twenty million on these football players and basketball players.
You are getting exponentially more. You know, twenty million is
like you know, forty primetime TV commercials. You're getting hours
(26:39):
and hours of primetime million multimillion viewers every single week
on their football and basketball games. They're not being paid adequately.
So basketball and football revenue is not the only metric.
It's how much revenue are you are you value you're
bringing to the school via marketing. That's and that's what
you can't truly measure. But that's why you have to
let the market be free and let the schools decide
what it's worth to them.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Where are you on two year deals? I love them?
Speaker 4 (27:06):
And another point I made I made this on Twitter
the other day. This hard cap they're trying to impose
YEP is going to make it really hard to do
multi year deals because people are going to want to
clear cap space for the next year. In the NBA,
you have bird rights and earlier bird rights, which essentially
means you can go over the cap to retain your
current roster. We're going to see a world where everyone
(27:29):
everyone's capped at three four million and power five and
you sign a multi year deal and then you have
another guy that you want to sign, but you're like, oh,
we're already capped out. So now you have a really
talented freshion that you have to tell the walk that
wants to stay there. Because in the current world, without
a repsure cap, you can just go to a booster
and say, hey, I need an extra half a million
to retain this really good player. He wants to stay here, Great,
(27:49):
we keep them. Now we're forcing a world where teams
to be clearing their roster to clear cap space for
a big free agency Yere and other schools that can't
retain their current talent talent because they're apped out legally.
So like, multi year deals are great, but we're going
to start seeing less of them and people are afraid
of not having cap space in the future.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
What about the buyout to do when you negotiate a
multi year deal for one of your players, does that
have a buyout?
Speaker 4 (28:14):
This year we had way more buyots than we've ever had.
This year. I had a number of schools that agree
to do the buyout, and buyouts work if all parties
are on board, Like I said this on your show before,
Like if you agree to a number with a kid
or a multi year deal, or even a one year
deal whatever, and they get the papers after you've already agreed,
and they and they read defined print and there's a
buyout that's fucked up. But if you know, I have
(28:36):
a kid right now is on a two year, one
point six million dollar deal, okay, and we agreed on
certain buyout terms for both sides. Hey, if you guys
want to terminate it and not on the next year,
this week, you have to pay him. Hey, if he
wants to leave for free agency next year and turn
down the second year one hundred thousand dollars option, this
is what he pays you. Right, we all agree to
all parties new the terms, we agreed to it. Everyone's
(28:56):
happy with it. And you know, he's performing really well
and he's probably working more them that next year. He's
gonna have to pay it to give himself out, and
we're cool with that. We wanted the security of having
that second year, and now they gave us that security,
and now they're going to reap reward of it by
doing a fair deal. And I think again, I said
it before, we were in a world and we're still
someone in the world with where the coaches and gms
(29:19):
are coaches. They're not people who have run professional teams before.
But now as we see more and more professionals coming
from pro sports coming into these college programs, we're going
to start seeing more creative deal structures because there have
been times in the past I'm trying to explain how
these creative deal structures work and they just like I
get dead eyes right, people don't even know how a
complihenment what I'm talking about. But the ones you can
(29:41):
get into the weeds and understand how complex deal structures
can actually benefit athletes and their program. They're winning and
they're doing really well, and they're creating much more sustainable
businesses for the university. But again, a lot of what
the NCAA is trying to do with the CSC and
the Score Act puts a lot of that ability for
a organic ecosystem to blossom. It puts a lot of
(30:03):
that at risk.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Awesome. So that's this is the first one.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Okay, so score Act and I did kind of double
up on it because I want to know where you
were on biots, But it was kind of to tee
you up on biots because I know you had talked
about those multi year deals. So every Thursday. Okay, we're
going to record one of these and pop it.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Up in the pod.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
And if you have any questions for Dan or for
myself as to what it's really like inside the world
of college athletics, especially college basketball, there's no better resource
than Dan Parliament.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
The just there just isn't.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
And I can help you a little bit because obviously
I'm in it. We're at a lower level than the
high majors, but there's still the same level movement, the
same kind of discussions. It's just a different decimal point
in a different or lack of a comma that that
may occur at the at the other level the level.
Happy hanukkah, this is this is awesome and uh we'll
(30:56):
talk again soon.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
That's it for this edition of All Ball.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
If you're listening to this, you're driving around, it's Christmas Eve,
maybe Christmas Day, you're getting ready for the new year.
And I want to relay this message to so many
of you who have messaged me on ig, messaged me
on Twitter, message me on TikTok wherever you get this,
or message me when we're doing the radio show. I've
done national radio for twenty three years it's awesome. It's
(31:26):
a dream. I grew up dreaming of doing three things,
you know, playing basketball on TV, playing professionally playing in college,
coaching basketball in college, and broadcasting.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
And now I'm doing all three.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
So being in your speakers, I mean, I'll give you
an example of one of my closest friends in.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Like most famous friends is Darius Rucker.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
And I met Darius Rucker at his concert and I
set it up with the promoter.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
It was at the mohegan Son. We went back to.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
His dressing room and he's like, dog, he knew my kids' names,
he knew everything about me, And I'm like, how does
this guy, this guy research me? Oh, Darius, his kids
were school age. My show's on the afternoon. He listened
to me picking up his kids at school every day
when I was on ESPN Radio. We were friends, we
just hadn't met yet. So and you know, now twenty
(32:29):
years later, I'm really close friends with Darius. I've gone
everywhere with him and played at his golf tournament, hung
out with him.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
It's a wonderful human being.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
But that friendship was really built in a relationship built
with radio, and I think it's been built with many
of you.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
So I'm not going anywhere.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
I'm just trying to be more intelligent about things, make smarter,
sounder decisions, be more precise and concise with my time.
I hope you and your family have a very, very
merry Christmas and a happy New Year. Hope you tell
your friends to download this podcast so that we can
keep bumping them out and keeping giving a good sports
chatter in the meantime.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Merry Christmas. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is all Ball
Host
Doug Gottlieb
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