In this episode, Doug discusses the NBA future of Iowa's Luka Garza, and Illinois star Ayo Dosunmu, and is joined by Brown University Head Coach Mike Martin. They discuss his Massachusetts upbringing, taking over the Brown program where he played, and how he's dealt with not being able to practice with his team since last March due to strict Ivy League COVID protocols, and what he's learned in the process. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey, what I welcome in. I'm Doug glib and this
is the all new All Fall, All Basketball, all of
the time. UM, I will tell you that, uh, we
have a special guest on this all bolt. Mike Martin
is the head coach of Brown and UM he's a
(00:27):
bit of a young fellow, right he got the job
at twenty nine years old. And Brown hasn't played basketball
this year. He joined me and it was right after
or in between double workout days, but the first day
they've been allowed back in the gym since early March
last year. Think about that kind of around his team
(00:48):
was he learned? How is he connected with his players?
How did you get this job? You know why? Brown?
He was actually offered offered to go to play at Harvard.
He chose Brown over them, amazing of course, launched his career,
his life, etcetera, etcetera. He'll he'll join this upcoming. I
think you'll really enjoy that. UM. Okay, there's a couple
(01:10):
of things I want to get to in college basketball
that I've I've seen and I I'm fascinated by. Got
a chance to see Illinois and Iowa last week in person,
and it's it's interesting to me because I love watching
uh Luca Garza play, and I really like watching Kofe
(01:30):
Coburn playing. Kofe. I got chance to coach in this
Pengos All American camp. It's not a ton of coaching,
but you could be around the kids and and um, Actually,
Posh Alexander was my point guard. Cope was my big guy.
They're both having really impactful times in college. But Kofe
was just he was just like a light bulb. He
just lit up the room. Man. He was such a
(01:51):
great kid to be around. What's fascinating is if you
went back twenty five years ago. Both those guys are
lottery picks. And Garza has an amazing touch. He knows
how a whole position, He knows angles you can score
in the post. He can shoot threes, do a little
bit of everything offensively with the basketball. But I I
(02:13):
don't know how he plays in the NBA meaningful starting minutes,
because you know, he's like he's just like a college
kind of Ennis Cantor. He's a bucket, but everybody that
goes at him is going to be a bucket to.
He just struggles in terms of lateral But if you
think about any thing about all the other parts of
his game which have improved. The defense is a little
(02:34):
bit better, and it could still continue to improve. I
do think he probably needs to drop some weight to
become a little bit more agile. And I'm guessing that
if you asked him, he would say, yeah, I need
that strength and wait the whole position. He's a tremendous
low post scorer just touch, has all the moves, incredible fluidity,
great hands, and they do a really good job of
(02:55):
getting him the basketball. There's good a post feeding team
as you're gonna find in college who really really good UM.
And I like when they play two bigs more than
when they play their kind of four out or sometimes
five out sort of look. I do think that they
lack the guy who can break you down, UM. But
(03:16):
because so many of them can play out of the post,
I think I think Connor McCaffrey can play out of
the posts some as well as Garza. I think they
can break down defenses in that way, but I would
and they just their problems stopping people, but they do
not have any problem scoring. Illinois. I owe Desima, you
(03:36):
know he played in He was so efficient in the
game that I saw and you watch him now. I
don't know how much game he has in terms of
creating his own off the dribble. So I don't know
if he'll be a star at the next level. But
to play for Brad, you've got a guard, so he
guards and he can. He can clearly has improved his shooting.
(03:57):
He's a tremendous layup maker, finisher. I think he's gonna
have a good career. I think playing for bred Underwood
is it's a very good mix of what he needed.
The discipline he needed, defense but he still needs in
his game, and and some of the some of the
way in which they're creating offense for him. But I
like the Illinois team. There's no reason to think they
can't compete in that second weekend to get to get
(04:22):
to a final four. They're they're they're good, they're deep. Um,
they change paces depending on who they come out the
bench with. Like that's a that's a good team, and
Brad has like quietly turned that thing around. Meanwhile, you
have the Michigan States of the world, which continue to struggle. Um,
you know, I I don't know what happens in Michigan
(04:44):
State in the future. Obviously they need better point guard
play and better leadership. They did start to hit some
shots against Iowa, so maybe some of the stuff turns around.
But I saw those two teams and I was intrigued
by both big guys. But there was a little little
confirmation there and that I don't think either have great
NBA like Kofe Coburn. De Median reminds me of a
(05:06):
little bit better version of Jehidi White who played at
Georgetown did play in the NBA. Just a massive human being, massive,
but not really athletically lateral ladder, the athletic enough, not
really quick enough in terms of a rim runner, and
you know a guy who can roll and run to
the rim. I think that both make the league guards
(05:28):
a slightly more impact because he can score, but neither
are are perennial starters. I've also got a chance to
see a lot of Mountain West basketball, and the the
top four teams are far above UM, far above the
the bottom teams. In that I mean, I think Boyse
(05:48):
is really really good. I get a chance to see
them in person. Taking on Nevada. Nevada is a team
that I think has it's a it's young, a bunch
of potential for the future this year, there's they've still
been successful kind of they're in that that mix of
they're not one of the top four, but they are
closing and improving fast after sweeping U and o V
(06:09):
going back to last weekend, but now they were swept
at Wyoming showing their their youth before before we uh,
we have Mike Martin joined us. One of his former
players is one of the two stars for the Wolfpack,
Desmond Cambridge Jr. Stud originally from Nashville, Tennessee. Fifteen a game,
(06:29):
four and a half, rebounds, two and a half assist.
And then they have Grant Sheerfield who is a sophomore. Uh.
He grew up in Kansas, then moved to Fort Worth
with like sixth grade, was at Sunrise Christian Academy, that
was gonna go to u c l A played for
Alfred Alford, gets fired, he goes to Wichita, starts half
the year. Now in his sophomore year, he's playing for Nevada.
(06:50):
Eighteen and a half a game, five and a half, assist,
a game, stealing a half, a game four boards, shoots
forty thirty six and eighty seven And I mean this kid,
he's really good. He's he's tremendous. I don't think they
have this year, the overall older bodies it's gonna take
to compete. They got Zaye meets Um. They also have
(07:15):
Warren Washington, who's a transfer from Morgan State and he
barely played his first year, didn't play, sitting out, so
he's a redshirt sophomore, but just kind of coming into
his own. Like they're gonna be good. They're gonna be
really good in the future. Kamie him as a kid
from Arizona. Uh, he kind of splits time at the
center position as a shop blocker, can also step out
(07:36):
and make some threes with Warren Washington. Um. I you
know Alfred, some people didn't like Alfred at u c
l A. Obviously it didn't end, it didn't end crazy well.
They didn't get to the final four the way that
Brad Holland did. Let me see Brad Holland, that Ben
Howland did. Brad Holland of course from the U c
l A, Guy USD. But but there's there's something about
(08:00):
all Fords ability in the Mountain West just dominate. And
I think we're like a year away from seeing Nevada
as the top twenty five team, and I don't think
any of these guys are pros. Surefield might be a
pro eventually, but it's like not. He's building a program
that has some sustainability, so it's gonna be pretty cool
to see exactly what what they can do. Speaking of
(08:22):
Desmond Cambridge Jr. He began his career playing for Our Guest.
Our Guests is a talented head coach at Brown. Of course,
Brown part of the Ivy League. They have not played
a game and will not play a game this season
during his time at Brown. Remember, the IVY League has
really cranked up in terms of the level of talent
in the league. You go back to two thousand, two
(08:45):
twenty games for the first time, they got to the
cb I quarterfinals. Last year they were eight and six
in conference play before of course, it was shut down
due to COVID concerns and they they have not obviously played.
He only had really one tough year's fourth year there,
but as a performer Brown player. He got the job
at twenty nine years old. How did he get it?
What's he learned? How would he change all these different things?
(09:06):
Let's welcome in. He's head coach of the Brown Bears
Mike Martin. Be sure to catch the live edition of
The Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at three pm Easter noon
Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio
a app. So you grew up in Warre in Massachusetts, Like,
how do I how do I pronounce it Agonwa? But
(09:29):
say it? Say it? When you were growing up in Agawam,
how would you say it? I don't have the Boston accent,
I know, but everybody does. Everybody everybody else have the
Agawam the Boston accent, not in the western part of
the state. Really, you know, it's interesting. It's interesting. I
think people having spent a bunch of time in the Northeast,
(09:50):
I don't know if people understand, like there's a perception
of like Boston, like, well everybody in Boston is you know, like, um,
it's like, you know, all the incredible colleges there, it's
very sophisticated. Like you go to western mass and the
percentage of Rednecks there is just as high as it
is in any other rural part of the countries that
(10:13):
it's at a fair fair parallel. So the people in
the folks in Boston, Eastern mass would say there's nothing
west of fives, like an interstate twenty miles west of Boston.
So like for me, yeah, I'm out in the middle
of nowhere. If you're from Boston, they probably even know
what Aguham is other than and we border Springfield, which
is where the Hall of Fame is and we have
(10:33):
a six Flags, So I think that's fair. Yeah, yes,
six fights. It's big, but it's definitely they definitely kind
of get your red neck on, Like I I've always
been to that, like Kenny Chesney concert at fox in Foxboro,
and like you go right and you're like, dude, there
are a lot of rednecks here. They're like yea, Like
Massachusetts is not all Boston anyway. Um, growing up, what
(10:57):
was how did you fall in love with basketball? Yeah?
My father was a high school coach for twenty plus years,
and you know when I was young, he had had
some great teams at Commerce High School before I was
born in Springfield, mass he sent Mark Hall to Minnesota. Uh,
you know, Nate Blunt played the Temple. He had some
great players at Commerce UM and then he took the
job at ad one On High School, which is where
(11:19):
I grew up. UM and you know, I grew up
going to his practices, going to his games. I was
the ball boy. I loved it. I rode the bus
and and that's how I fell in love with with
the sport. And uh, you know, just fortunate that. Uh
you know, my father was a coach, much like yours.
How did you fall in love with basketball? So my
father was a long time high school coach twenty plus years.
(11:40):
He had some great players at Commerce High School in Springfield,
mass Mark Hall who played uh Minnesota with Kevin McHale,
Nate Blunt who went down to Temple in Philly. Uh.
But then you know what I remembers when he was
the coach at Agwham High School, which is in the
suburb and right outside Springfield, and uh, you know, just
grew up as a ball boy three or four years old,
going every practice, right in the bus, going every game.
(12:02):
And uh fortunate that my father was a coach and
fell in love with the sport through that. Uh. Probably
very similar to you, you know, growing up the son
of a coach. Yeah, it's interesting because you know, my
my dad was when he was the head coach until
I was six, and he was an assistant coach at
(12:22):
Long Beach State until I was nine or ten, and
then he was an assistant coach at Oregon State for
a year. But he went up there and we stayed
in southern California, and then he was you know, he
kind of bounced around doing stuff and started as an
auth coach. So I didn't have necessary like a high
school team um to to to like being to be
(12:44):
drawn to like it became my brother's teams, my brother's
high school team. I was a ball boy for when
your when your dad was a coach. Every I found
every coach's kid has a guy who when they grew
up they idolized, like that was their guy? Who was
your guy? Who is the guy? Like that's who I
want to be. Yes. So his best player at Aguam
was a guy by the name of Jeff Peterson who
(13:05):
won uh, you know, the Lahovich Award, which is like
the top player in Hampton County, Western Massachusetts, Berkshire and
h Hampshire counties as well. But he brought my father's
team the district finals they where they lost to a
good chick be comp team. But that was probably I
was six seven years old and like I wanted to
be Jeff Peterson. Yeah. Um, what was your dad like
(13:27):
he's a coach? Yeah? Intense? Uh you know, Um he was.
He played football, baseball, basketball in high school. He ended
up playing basketball in college at North Adams State because
he U he blew out his knees so he couldn't
play football. But very you know, we're gonna play hard. Uh,
We're gonna outwork you, We're gonna defend you intense. Uh.
(13:49):
You know. He demanded a lot of his players and um,
you know coached him hart. Yeah. It's it's interesting, Um
that now of his style, What of his style is
how you coach? What of his style is the opposite
of how you coach? So we're gonna coach you hard,
We're gonna demand an awful lot, We're gonna care about you.
(14:10):
We're gonna love you off the court, just like my
father did with all his players. Um. You know, I
think I was really influenced from Glenn Miller, who was
my college coach at Brown. He recruited me to Brown.
He got me into the profession of coaching. Uh and uh,
you know, I think I picked up a lot of
you know, coach Miller's attention to you know, detail, how
to run offense, How to you know, prepare a team? Um,
(14:32):
so I think I would. I would say I'm a
blend of both. Um. It's interesting, right because that generation,
like my dad, I'll never forget we ran like little
Ralph Miller one four high right, maybe a little highball screen,
but like the old school, like just put the big
out the top of the key, right, um, you know,
(14:52):
and dribbling space off of it, and like that was
kind of it. Like my son's my son asked me
like that, what was what was grandpa Us practice? Like
I was like, well, you know, he did fundamentals, you know,
a ton of passing every day, and then did transition
stuff and then press break you know, because like Gray,
you everything's press break and then just a little half
court offensive stuff. He's like, wow, you run a lot
(15:14):
of plays and sets. And I was like, well, I
feel like basketball is a lot more technical now, like
it's just coached, like you said, coach differently. You know.
I played for Very Sutton and he never drove a
play like, no one time. I never, not a single time.
Now Sean his son would drop the plays and he
would some you know, he'd grab it and show somebody's
(15:36):
specific in terms of spacing, but he never like, hey,
we need a bucket, like let's run this at the
end of the game. And I was just amazing when
I coach, I situational coaching to me is really important.
You know. I tried like we had a bounced places
that were that were good, and we scored on we
frankly scored on him because I was passing the ball um.
But but I spend like that's an easy place to
(15:58):
not just show off. But the deal points right, and
I think that is important. Whereas it does feel like
there's that that old school of coaches was just like,
how can we get you to play hard? How can
we get you to play unselfish? And then can you
play a little bit harder and a little bit more unselfish?
And then and then like they also would kind of
(16:20):
adjust to the which kids, which kids could they mf
and which kids that had needed the pat in the back.
Other than that, there wasn't a lot of a lot
of magic to it, right, I am, I am I
crazy to think that's a little bit of the old
school mental mentality coaches. I think it's so true, and
I think the best coaches now have a great blend
of of of both, Doug Right, I mean, that's that's
fascinating to hear about. Coach Sutton never drawn up a
(16:42):
play and obviously, you know who had more success than him,
hardly anyone. Right. He recruited really good players, he coached,
he loves you, and he demanded an awful lot and uh,
you know you think about him and his his career
and it's it's it was so incredibly successful. But yeah,
I think like we're like a school fundamentals values, play hard, play, unselfishly,
(17:04):
share the ball, uh with you know some new school
new aged uh, you know, spacing on offense, defensive concepts. Uh.
I think that, you know, gosh, I'd love to hopefully
one day be a great blend of both. Yeah, that's
it's a I think the best are I think I
think the absolute the best are. Um, why why did
(17:24):
you pick Brown? Like you're growing up Western mass Because
back then the Ivy League was Penn and Princeton and
that's it, like those are the everybody else playing for
third and they didn't recruit me. So the current pen
coach right now, Steve dunhe was on staff and coach
Dumphy obviously they had incredible teams. I joked with Steve.
You know, we're good friends. Now. Uh, they didn't think
(17:45):
I was good enough and and and they're right. They
won a lot IVY championships. Uh. I was recruited by
Brown and Harvard. You know, quite a few Patriot legue schools. Um.
You know, so you've turned down Harvard? I did. I
did Frank Sell and so Frank Sullivan. I was a
coach at Harvard before Tommy Amaker, great guy, good and
(18:07):
uh you know, I just you know, I clicked with
coach Miller and his staff. Call me crazy. I love
the state of Rhode Island, my family and Rhode Island. Uh.
You know, here's the deal. My father was a coach
and a teacher. My you know, became an a d
My mother was a longtime middle school teacher. UM. Academics
were always important. It was like, all right, I got
Brown and Harvard the IVY League. It's really good. You know,
(18:29):
you can't do better than the IVY League from an
educational academic standpoint. I want to go where I'm gonna
be happiest, where I felt like I'd fit in better.
And I just you know what it was a gut decision. Uh.
Coach Sullivan was shocked when I told him I'm choosing Brown.
He had me on the phone and he was so
gracious about it, but he's like, really, like your western
Massachusetts coming to Harvard. That's not and and and they
(18:52):
did a good job recruiting me. I just maybe I
was naive. I don't regret it for a minute. It
was the best decision for me. I met my wife,
your unbelievable teammates who are lifelong friends, and um, I'm
probably not the coach at Brown if I didn't play here,
no question, no question. And it's it's always interesting on
how I don't know if high school kids understand how
(19:13):
big a decision that is and how it's aid. I
remember as a kid, choose your own adventure books. No, okay,
there's like a lot about dragons, and I hated to read.
And I remember, like in fourth grade or fifth grade
or something, it took me to a reading specialist and
they turned me onto these choose your own adventure books
and it was basically, you get to the end of
(19:34):
the page and you had to make one of three
decisions and the book would be turned to page ten.
If you want this at age fifteen, you want this right,
and it would the book would change based upon what
decision you made. And that's kind of how life is,
especially picking a college, right, It's where your best friends,
probably your spouse when you need a job. Those are
the people that lums that you're going to count on.
(19:55):
Wherever that is, that's where you're probably gonna live. You know,
Brown is a fascinating place because it's in the IVY League.
But I guarantee it's like the it's still probably the
least known, right, It's it really is. It's said, and
I'm not I'm not in any way trying to be
disrespectful like I but like you said, like what are
the ivylis goes like, oh, Princeton, Harvard Yale, you know,
(20:18):
like Princeton, Harvard, Yale, and then oh yeah, Pen's in
the IVYLA man who else? You know, Court Court Cornell.
I know it's beautiful. They get the Bridge. They've got
some other issues there, Okay, they got Dartmouth, which is
like the big party school out the middle of nowhere, right,
and they're like, who am I forgetting? Who am I forgetting?
Who am I forgetting? Forgetting Brown? Um, you're so you
(20:39):
show up a Brown, you're a freshman. What's Brown like
as a university? Yeah, it's it's an awesome place. I
mean we always every year, Doug. We always are you know,
either one or two or three. And these all these
surveys of who has the happiest students, who are the
happiest college students? A lot of it is because we
have an open curriculum. There's no required courses at Brown.
(21:00):
You there are zero core classes, zero requirements. So like
my thing in recruits is this, you never be in
a class you don't want to be in at Brown. Uh.
No one's gonna tell you have to take this class
to fill fulfilled requirement. Uh. It's it's an awesome place. Uh.
Unbelievable faculty. Um and really focused on the undergraduate experience.
We have a few men. Uh you know, we have
(21:20):
a big medical school. We have a few graduate programs,
but much more focused on undergrad When I was a freshman,
my eyes were literally opened. I had no I didn't
know what Wall Street was, I didn't know what Goldman
Sachs was. I didn't know any of those things. And
now the guys and girls I'm going to school with
are getting these jobs, these internships and all these amazing opportunities.
But I was focused on playing hoops. Uh, Coach Miller.
(21:43):
I was part of his first recruiting class. He took
over a program that didn't have a ton of success.
I had a chance to play early. I started as
a freshman, and you know I had great teammates. Earl
Hunts are all time leading scorer. He was a year
ahead of me. He's now a partner at Goldman Sachs,
the trustee of the university. Um, you know, just when
to school with unbelievable people. Uh, with my closest friends
(22:04):
to this day. And um, you know we uh we
had some success. We had four straight winning seasons, the
first time that ever happened in school history. We went
to the n i T my junior year, we went
twelve and two. Brand Dumphy's team at Penn went fourteen
and oh we lost a two close games to them.
The second was that when they had when they had Jerome,
(22:25):
No so Jerome's a little bit older me. They had
you got on Nick Way coach Archer Bond, Andy Toole,
the head coach at Robert Morris. They were they were
really good. Um was a good player and a good
key and a good coach. And then I think that
team lost to Oklahoma State. They did in OH three
exactly right in Boston. So that team at Penn won
the Big Five. There were four and no in the
(22:46):
Philadelphia Big Five. They went fourteen and know in our
league we lost to him by three in a game
here at Brown, Chris Berman came in and introduced the
starting line ups from the balcony he had a place
electric and I still say we were ten and one.
They were eleven and all or whatever it was. They
had zero losses. We had one going into the game.
I tore my a c L the week before, uh
(23:07):
and I still say if I had played, we would
have at least tied for the title thirteen and one
for one game playoff. And I'll argue that with anybody,
But unfortunately can't go back and untear my a c O.
What for somebody who experienced it at its peak? What
was the poluster like to play? And as a visiting player.
(23:28):
So I went through my first game ever as not
my first game, but my first time ever being in
the plus row. Was my freshman year. Again, they didn't
recruit me. So I went there and played them, and
we had just lost the tight win the Princeton the
Friday night, and we came out there and played them,
and I fell in love with It's an awesome place.
I was fortunately coached there for six years. UM my
(23:48):
junior year, we went down there and we were on
defeeded in the league. They were undefeeding in the league.
The place was sold out. It was what was what
was on the rollout side? That's the big question. What
was on the rollout side when you guys came down there.
All I've remember is I had a little goatee and
they were killing me from my gotee. And I don't
remember the rollout, but I remember them being all over
(24:08):
me from my goateee. And I don't think I've ever
grown facial hair since because of um have we lost
some of that? It feels like like, look, you and
I we we love the sport, and we love the
college sport. And I have my own thoughts on on
(24:28):
the negative influences of that sport of the sport. But
I do feel like and I hate being that guy
like back in my day, but and maybe even previous
to me, but in that area, like it was better,
the fan interaction was better because the games weren't all
on TV. I would say it's part of it. Um.
(24:49):
The transferring I think really hurts it because you don't
know like they who I have no emotional investment in
uh in a lot of these players, um, And I
think that not just the transfer, but guys so many
have have come and gone to the NBA or two
what they think is greener pastures. But even for the
(25:09):
IVY League, which um, the talent I believe is better
now or over the last ten years, Harvard changing what
they changed in order to and Tommy getting in there
and recruiting a higher level has raised everybody like you've
had you had Desmond Cambers. I guess a big time
that kid can play for instance, that kids can play,
(25:32):
you know, like it's the whole level of the league
is great. But I don't feel like there's the same
passion at a pen at a princeton Um that there
used to be. And of course that's the trickle down
from the It's not the same at the big boys.
Am I wrong? You experience it obviously this year I
want to get into But do you feel like the
(25:53):
the fandom the home court environments has has changed for
the worst over the past five years or so. That's
a great question, and I have to give it more thought.
I mean, everyone has so many other options to do
with their you know, with their time now. I mean,
like it's when we played in the late nineties, early
two thousands, there was no not as many options for
college students. So like I think there's still a big
(26:14):
game on a college campus. I still don't think there's
anything like it, but the consistency of uh, sellout crowds
and passion, um, you know, in our league. Um, yeah,
it's probably a little different. I'm I can't say you're
wrong for sure, but like you know, we've had you know,
we've had some great crowds here. We've averaged more people
in the last couple of years because we've been good
than ever before. So um, you know, we've got to
(26:36):
make it an event. Like I think, as a coach
at a college program, if you want, like you got
to make it an event on your campus, and you
have to get everyone involved. And we say all the time.
When we went our next IVY title and we only
have one in our program history, and that was six
but when we do it, it's gonna be everyone. It's
gonna be the community, it's gonna be the students, it's
gonna be the president, the a D, the donors, that fans, everyone,
(26:57):
because that's what it's gonna take, and we want everyone
to kind of be feel that ownership. And since that,
Doug so like, come on, it's an event. We're gonna
You know, we've got Yale, they won the league last year,
and we we've done a fairly good job of creating
some momentum and some excitement here at Brown. Um, but
I I can't tell you. I can't say you're wrong. Um.
(27:20):
You you get done playing and now you're like, okay,
now what do I do? Right? Obviously you have a
Brown degree. Um, you got a scar in your needed
to show for your time there, became a very good
starting point guard. You went and played in Ireland for
a year. Right, what was that experience? What was that experience? Like,
so I was a two guard. I wasn't. I didn't
handle it well enough to play point But uh yeah,
(27:44):
so I I interviewed you know I did, like, you know,
my my best I just told you my one of
my best friends and former teammates is now a partner
of Goldman Sachs. You know, I see him and all
these other folks getting these great internships, these great jobs.
Uh So I interviewed and I accepted a job with
a bootie investment bank called Adams Harkness and Hill. I
was gonna go work for them in Boston. I got
(28:05):
the job offering like November December of my senior year,
which I was, you know, really excited about. And then
the season ended. We had another good year my senior year,
not quite as good as my junior year were when
we were twelve and two, but we finished ten and
four in the league's second place. And I'm like, you know,
I know I'm not gonna make a lot of money playing,
but I gotta keep playing. I just I wanted to
(28:25):
keep playing. I did it, had a great experience, and um,
you know, turned down the job in investment banking. I
never forget calling the firm. It was a couple of
Brown former Brown football players who you know, we're partners
at the firm, and helped me get the opportunity, and
I thank them, but told him I had to pursue this,
and and uh then I came back and coach Millard
offered me a job to be an assistant coach at
(28:45):
Brown volunteer assistant coach. But I was gonna be an
assistant coach. I was gonna be on the court. I
was gonna be on the road recruiting twenty two years old,
about to turn twenty three, and I didn't need to
make any money and it was the best. You know,
so many people started as gas or administrative. I started
as an assistant coach at the Division one level, recruiting
nationally and uh it got me a great start into
(29:06):
the coaching professional. Where did you live making no money?
I lived in a little apartment on the east side
of Providence, like on the third floor of UH. A
donor at an alumni house. He let me live up there.
But my my girlfriend at the time was in Boston,
so I probably she's now my wife. I probably spent
more time up there than I did down in Province. Uh.
(29:28):
Providence is a really cool and kind of unique, underrated
city for somebody who hasn't been, Like, you come to town,
go here to eat. Where's the place? Gosh, there's so
many I know. I would tell you, Sienna, you have
to go to Federal Hill, Federal Hills like you know,
little little really um, but like you can get it all.
(29:49):
Seafood Italian Um, you can get a great steak downtown.
I'd go to Sienna and Federal Hill. Um. There's there's
so many good options. The city of Providence. It's big
and off that you know, you can have a great food,
great theater, great um. You know, places to go out
and shop and have fun. But like every almost every
(30:11):
town in the state, and you can get within him
with you can get anywhere in the state within an hour.
There's no two points in our state that are more
than one hour away. But there's so many unbelievable beach
communities here. It's two doug And in summertime, Newport and
Arrogance it Westerly. Uh. It's an awesome place to live
and it's a really under underrated part of our country. Um. Okay,
(30:32):
so ah, how did you get the job? Well? Uh,
our r A D. Jack Hayes, who has actually just
uh you know, left to pursue uh other professional opportunities.
He was just hired. He was the a D at
Hofstra before coming to Brown two thousand twelve. I coached
(30:54):
a guy you know well, Zach Rosen, who was an
awesome point guard at Penn and he was Big five
and Ivy League Player of the Year and he he
helped us have a great season. He led us to
a great season. Jerome Allen was our head coach at
Penn and Dan Lee Vivitz was on the staff. We had.
We had a great staff staff. Right, Dan becomes ahead,
Dan becomes a head coach. I mean, Jerome is a
legend the league. And you become a head coach off
(31:16):
that staff. And we know anybody was that uh any
Zack knows he had an incredible career. Um, okay, so good,
I'm sorry. Prior to that. John Gallagher who's the head
coach at Hartford was Harvard. Yeah, so crazy. Um and
uh so anyways to Hartford on one staff, that's right,
that's right. Uh well, so they were never on the
(31:37):
staff at the same time. But it is interesting, right
Harvard hired two guys essentially have the same staff, one
to replaced the other. When when Dan, when when Dan
decided I've had enough. It was amazing And the and
the funny thing is so Steve Donny, who after the
Sweet sixteen at Cornell got to Boston College job. John
Gallagher was gonna leave Penn to become an assistant at
Boston College. When John left Penn, then Dan was interested
(32:00):
coming back to Philadelphia and you know helping Jerome and
our staff, and that opened the vacancy at Hartford. But yeah,
small world, crazy uh crazy story. Um, the job was
when I was twenty nine years old. We had had success,
like I said, at Penn the last couple of years,
and uh, you know I was along. I knew pretty much.
You know, I had a little bit of a relationship
with Jack Hayes. Not much you had just come from Hofstra,
(32:21):
but we knew a lot of mutual people and uh,
you know, there was a lot of people involved. I
think you know, Jack listened to that, knew me, and
you know, knew the type of person I was, uh
you know, my acumen as a coach and hopefully ability
to lead. And here we are eight and a half
years later. Okay, so eight and a half years ago,
(32:42):
Like taking over an IVY league is not like taking
over anywhere else, right, It's not just you know, like
you can't go like I'm gonna get really these sucking
dudes and I'm gonna get some new dudes, and we're
gonna get some juicos and some transfers and let's roll
right you kinda this is what you got, and then
you gotta go recruit, and you know, you go back
and eight and years ago, Um, you know, the landscape
(33:03):
of the league was dramatically different. Um okay, so what
do you remember about your first year in terms of Okay,
now you're setting your own practice plans, you're setting your
own recruiting. Um, you're telling your you have to hire
a stop but the budget budget constraints. You also have
to be realistic, not not just with grades for the
(33:25):
IBY League, but there are kids in the IVY League
who is They're not going to consider brown, right, They're
just not. So there's the it's not an easy job
when you first take it over and you have your
current players that are there before that you're not running
off like you don't run off dudes in the idea, right,
what what what's that first year? Like? Yes, so I
(33:45):
was hired June one, So like you can't even get
recruits in late because admissions timelines and even transfers couldn't
come because the emissions transferre admission deadline in the past.
So it was like I was hired. My press conference
was June one, and the guys that were left that
that was my team. And I was so fortunate. I
inherited great kids, good talent, um, just not a ton
(34:06):
of depth. We had ten guys on our roster the
first year. Um, you know, just through through you know,
a couple of different reasons. We had ten guys on
the roster. Once we started getting going, and um, we
we we we thought we had a good year, would
beat Providence College at home. We went seven and seven
in the IVY League. We finished in fourth. We beat
Princeton at the end of the season. If Princeton had won,
(34:26):
they would have tied with Harvard for the IVY title,
and we ended up beating him. So you know, Harvard
wanted out right. Uh, those guys, I had no idea
what I was doing. Um, I you know, thought I
knew everything like all assistants do. And you know what
I asked those guys to do, they did it. They
did it with unbelievable passion and spirit, and they did
it with great chemistry. And uh, you know, we we
(34:49):
They made me look like I knew what I was
doing and uh, you know, recruiting God so offensively. Okay,
every assistant who sits there is like, man, I get
my shot, Like we're gonna we're gonna do this. We're
gonna you know, we're gonna play. Everybody wants to play fast, right,
whoever sits, no matter who I guess. I'm guessing whoever
sat in the little Mirrymounts bench. You know, I was thinking,
(35:10):
we're gonna play even faster, like everybody wants to play
faster than you get in charge, Like, holy ship, we
play fast, we might just get just get run out
of this gym. And again, you had you had played,
and you'd played a certain style you've been assistant, which
is a little bit different style with with Drone specifically obviously,
and then you've grown up with your dad who had
his specific style. How did you your first year? What'd
(35:32):
your run? Did you say, hey, let's run the same
ship you guys have been running. Did you putting your
own stuff? What you do? Yeah? No, I I put
I put in my stuff. We did play. We played
slow though, because we had ten guys, and I was like,
we gotta if we're gonna win, which we want to win.
We don't you know, we want to build good habits
and we want to start winning right away. I thought
(35:53):
we had to play low possession games like no matter
who we were playing against. And I think we were
one of the slowest temple teams in the country that year.
And we defended you really well, you know, man to man,
we we we were very good defensively, and we were
good enough offensively. We had a couple of really good guards,
the first team all ivy guard and then a second
team all Ivy two guard and you know, we we
just ran a lot of sets that flowed into like
(36:15):
a four hour one in motion, and guys shared it. Um.
You know, we played through the low posts quite a bit.
And uh, you know, but we played slow. It was
like the opposite of what every new coach says. And
I probably said it my press conferents, we're gonna play fact. Sure,
I'm sure what you recruiting like, we want to play fast.
I never forget. So Kevin O'Neil was at Tennessee right
and and Lawrence Frank was his assistant. And I don't
(36:38):
know if you, I don't know if you ever got
recruited by those guys, but they used to just carpet
bombing with and so I'm sitting out after playing Utre Dame.
And one of my frustrations in playing for coach McLeod
was we didn't have an organized secondary break. He just
didn't which most people don't have now they just run,
you know, transition drag screens whenever. But even that we
didn't really do. And you know, like I was much
(36:59):
better than that open court it that I was in
the half court. And so I was committed to whoever
I wherever I go, like I gotta we gotta be
able to play faster because I just I'm not that
good in half court. I'll never forget there. Send me
like every day, like we want you and we're gonna
do this. And we got Vincent Yark, you know, we
got Yarboro. We got these guys. And I turned and
it was like this first year maybe at Tennessee and
(37:19):
I turn on the TV and they're playing Kentucky and
they had like eleven points at the half right and
they're just holding the ball and playing slow. Now, the
all you had to say in reality was like, hey,
these guys are very good. I need good players to
play fast. You know, we gotta shorten this thing, but
it was it was in the sale that was I
(37:40):
was just I was blown away, like it was one
of the It's like in football you have this as
a broadcast. Every defensive coordinator that's ever been higher at
the press conference says, we're gonna be aggressive, We're gonna
we're gonna blitz more. Right. If that was the case,
by two one, he will be blitzing every down. Right,
there was just eleven guys the last scriments. It's not
the reality of it, but that's what people want to hear.
(38:01):
What did you learn? What did you What did you learn?
Like you really smart coaches learn from things, learn from
personal experience. But remember learning from your first year, Well
so I probably learned it more so the last, uh,
you know, over the next of course, the next few years.
It's just how how fortunate I was like to inherit
the group that I had, and I made so many mistakes. Um,
(38:23):
you know as a young coach. Um, you know, I
think I learned, you know, I've I've definitely learned over
the last eight years who's right for us and the
right type of kids that are going to thrive under
the way we want to play. Right, are kind of
guys exactly right, say it again. I like that I'm
gonna use that kind of guy. But yeah, you know,
(38:46):
I think we you know, we've we've definitely involved and
we figured out you know how we wanna, you know
how we wanna. You know what our values are, you
know what we want to You know, you can't stand
for everything. Like early on, I thought we're gonna do
you know, all these different things offensively, defensively, Doug, and
you know you get to maybe one third of it,
you know what I mean, Like you you have a
great plan going in and you probably can only put
in one third of the things you you expect to
(39:07):
put in. So uh learned that I want to be
really good at a few things that really matter. And
you know the other thing, Yeah, we're gonna play play hard,
like like we're gonna compete, and we want guys who
are willing to battle through some adversity. We want to, uh,
you know, be very good defensively. Our last couple of
years we've been either one or two in the IVY
(39:28):
League and defensive efficiency. And you know that that's kind
of been through through experience, Like we've learned through having
some bad defensive teams here Brown, We've learned through having
some guys that maybe as hard as they worked, weren't
ever going to be the best defenders for us. So
we're gonna play hard, we're gonna share the ball, we're
gonna defend, and you know, I want to I want
to coach guys who are willing to battle through. Uh.
(39:50):
You know it's not you. You know how it is.
And you know, in our league or the Big Twelve
or the Pact, whatever league you're playing, you're gonna face
some tough moments and you know, you get to have
a certain type of uh values and standards that if
you're gonna pull through. I want to ask you more
off off recording. But I do think like the Desmond
Cambridge story is the perfect embodiment of the battle at
(40:12):
your level of basketball. Like you found a kid, super talented,
good grades, you play him right away, the averages went
eighteen a game for you as a sophomores and All
Ivy League kid, and then he leaves in transfers. I
guess upper level, Uh, if you will, what's that like
to experience? Like it? It's the lad I found you,
(40:33):
fostered your growth, built the thing around you. Things were
going good and now you're gone. I like, everybody has
you have the ability and he's you know, you have
the ability to do so, but what is that like
from your perspective? Yes, so we how about this? So
we found out about dez uh who's from Nashville, Tennessee.
And there's a guy who played not for my father
but against my father from Springfield, mass who called my
(40:56):
father and said are you going in relation to the
coach at Brown, Mike Martin Brown. And so anyways, long
story short, they send the video. You know, my father says,
I'm sure the kids not any good. But you know,
the guy wants me to send the video. I said
send it. We looked at it and we're like, yeah,
he's really good. And so we recruited him. We're so
fortunate that that we got him. Uh And you know,
I'm I'm grateful. Like Desmond was a very good players
(41:19):
rookie year in our league. He was an All ivy player.
He helped us win twenty games. That was the first
time in two thousand and eighteen nineteen that Brown had
ever won twenty games in the season. Doug, I think
we were the last Vision one program to ever win
twenty games, So he helped us, uh you know, create
some of the momentum. We still feel really good about.
He made a decision that he felt was best for him,
and we support him and you know, I've been watching
(41:40):
him and following him, and he's playing great for Nevada
right now. But he was part of the you know,
like the last two years, we've won more games that
than has ever been one in school history, thirty five games.
Uh des was a huge part of that. And you
know what, he also helped with us getting other recruits
because they saw him and how good he was. And
I was like, I want to go play a round
(42:00):
two because if that guy thinks Brown is the right place,
then I can do that. So um, you know, like
I thought this year, if we played, would have been
the best team I've ever coached. Uh In Desmond is
a huge part of building that. Um okay, last thing,
so you didn't have you finally have an IVY League
tournament only that got canceled last year, right and now
you haven't had a season, and at the time of
(42:22):
this recording, you just got your first chance to work
guys out, first chance all years since last March, right.
I know you you gotta go. You got other things.
I respect that. It's great to be back at the gym.
First question, what you've been doing. Man, I've spent a
ton of time in my family, my wife, Kristen. I
have three daughters, Kira's nine, Avery's eight, Tea and six. Uh,
(42:46):
you know, been coaching them in the street, you know,
when the weather is good. I've been doing drop off
and pick up every day at school. Uh. It's just
trying to stay connected to our players, you know. I
think that's your biggest role as a coach, you know.
And the hardest thing is when you're not in the
gym with him every day. You can't take him to lunch,
you can't you know, just go, you know, hang out
with him in the locker room. That's the hardest thing.
So try to stay connected with them however we can.
(43:06):
With the technology we have now, I've been watching more
basketball than ever before, you know, NBA, College, some European things,
and you know, like I joked with some donors on
a call the other night, I was like, we're gonna
be the most over coached team in the history of
basketball next year because I have all these great ideas. Obviously,
we gotta figure out what's good for us and what
fits our personnel. Um, but that's some of it. And
(43:28):
but today, like you said February four, it's the best.
I mean, just to be able to drive in this morning.
We had an eight am workout. We're in there all morning,
we're getting ready to go back out there. Uh, it's
it's it was just such a great feeling. And you know,
I'll never take for granted again, you know, just being
in the gym, here in the sneaker squeak, here in
the ball bounce, because uh, like you said, we weren't
(43:49):
in there since March seven. That's that's amazing. Okay, I
know you gotta go, but I got one more for you.
Give me something to learn. You're watching a ton of
ball something that like because so much. Tom Brandon is
a dear friend of mine, right and TB was, of
course eighteen years a head coached Vermont, and I'll never
forget when he was working with us at ESPN. You
(44:11):
know he would pull you aside, go my boy, when
you're coaching the team, you don't worry about any of
these other teams. You worried about your team. And maybe
even your league, like I don't, I don't know shit
about it, Like you gotta help me out, Like you
want to talk about ball, about what it's like, like
I can, but you know, I'm solely focused on my guys.
So now you're focused on your guys, but also these
(44:32):
other things, and it's just kind of an eye opening experience. Right.
What's one thing that that you've learned that you really
want to try and implement that you like. It can
be style of play, it can be anything, like I
I that's one of the things that we do is
we process things and try and implement them and things
we do like me even talking to you, I'm I
(44:52):
know what I want to do with my kids when
I gotta practice tonight. One thing that you're going to
try and implement that you've learned. So as in a
quick aside, you know who are so of your head coaches?
Right Brown, Yes, TJ, coach Brennan and T I mean
so coach Brennan is a dear friend of mine as well. Uh.
T J and I actually played on the same AU
(45:13):
team and Vermont was a school that recruited me. I
took a visit there, but I chose brown. Anyways, Uh,
you know what, the biggest thing I've learned is um
but by the way, by the way in best human
beings on the planet. No, no, I gotta I know,
you gotta go, and I want this, I want this answer.
(45:33):
But this is my this is my first TV story.
So I hadn't I hadn't covered him before, and they
had the year before they lost to be You in
the conference Tournament championship at bu so Dave Revson and
I are covering. It's like the first college basketball televised
game whatever. Uh cop and Wrath is coming off like
a broken wrist or something. We don't know if he
(45:54):
was gonna play. And we roll into We roll into
Burlington and like the day before their biggest game ever
on ESPN, he canceled practice, canceled practice, no practice. We
get there, we're like, first practice, like TB canceled. So
the next day we show up at the game and
(46:15):
he's like, where were you? And I go, what do
you mean? It's like that was there. I don't know
what the restaurant is in town that he always Yeah,
he was just we were like, well you didn't invite us?
Who a bte you? Everybody knows I'm down there, Like,
just ask anybody that's where I am. Right, Um, there
wasn't there wasn't a bill that he didn't pick up.
(46:35):
There wasn't a time in which he had a bad day.
Like of the top ten human beings I've come into
contact with in my life, Tom Brendon is absolutely on
that list. We could talk about him forever. T used
to have his radio show every morning and it was
like the highest rated radio show in Vermont, and he
would call t J would tell stories. He'd call the
guys at like six in the morning in their dorm
rooms and wake him up and you know, get him on,
(46:57):
get him on the show. But yeah, awesome, awesome guy. Um.
But anyways, I would tell you this, I already hinted
at it. The biggest thing I've learned, Like, We're not
gonna I'm never gonna like, I'm never gonna take for
granted the opportunity to be with my guys like and
and be in the gym and uh, you know, support
them however I can. Obviously, we've seen so many awful
things happened in the last eleven months since we were
(47:18):
on the court, right, and how can we support uh
these guys um as as their coaches. Technically, I would
tell you I've watched a lot of the spacing around
European uh, you know, especially in Spain. Uh, some of
the spacing they use in ball screens. And there's a
guy Mancho Fernandez who coaches ober Dorio, and he runs
like a four corner pick and roll offense, and you know,
(47:40):
we're trying to look at that a little bit maybe
add you know, some type of dribble drive aspects while
still being able to get to some of the good
off ball cutting and screening actions that we've always tried
to do. Like Coach Miller was a motion offense, uh,
you know type of guy, and you know we've tried
to do that. Played through the big at the low post,
play are big at the high closed pay, played through
(48:01):
our big at the top of the key in a
five out situation. Can we kind of fuse all that?
That's my that's kind of been my biggest project. And
I think with our personnel, what we'll have next year
if we can we confuse like a dribble drive with
some spread pack and roll and you know, playing through
our our big a different areas of the floor. Maybe
we'll have a chance because our offense needs to get
a lot better. Well, listen, I'd like to get back
(48:23):
in the gym. I know how happy you are. I
do want at some point, if you have a moment,
to do a pod on on some of those European
coaches and on some of the different aspects that it
might be a little technical to do in an audio conversation,
but I don't know. I I dig it, and I
think if I dig it and you do, then there'll
be enough. This pod is design for people who give
(48:44):
a shit about hoop, right, And that's the whole idea
about it. All right, that's all ball, all ball, all
I could. I could talk ball any any time of day.
So you just let me know. I'm gonna tell you
this before you go. I gotta so. My My son's eleven.
He plays eleven U twelve year case plased thirteen. I
got a thirteen YOUW team, and I sent out a
(49:04):
text to the parents and I said, I got I
finally have a good team. I said, look, I don't
think we'll win one of those elite level We're playing
in a big tournament this weekend, the big one next weekend,
like the gold level stuff I want to tournament. I
was like, but what I want your kids to experience
on the micro is what in the macro you experience
(49:25):
in college ball, which is being a part of the team,
being better as one than you are individually, right, sharing
the ball, sharing the success, even sharing the losses together
like that. Those kind of things are what what this
deal is about, you know, and we make it about
I think so many times the wrong things. To me,
that's the that's the right things. And I love how
(49:46):
I have seen your teams play, and I I like
how your teams play, and I agree like evolving offensively.
We expect players to evolve. Coaches got to evolve too.
You can't just keep doing the same ship over and
over again expecting a different result, no doubt out, Doug,
thanks so much, great to be with you. Get back
in the gym. Thanks man. Be sure to catch the
live edition of The Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at three
(50:08):
pm Easter noon Pacific. That was awesome. That was really
interesting stuff. We'll have to have coach Martin back on.
We'll talk some XS and ose and some coaching a
little more detailed things, but I thought that was just
a fascinating talk. Hope you enjoyed it. Remember my show,
The Doug Gotlip Show three six Eastern twelve, three Pacific
on Fox Sport Tradio, Fox Sport Trade dot Com. You
can also download the pot if you want. In the meantime,
(50:31):
if you have college basketball NBA questions, feel free tweet
at me at Gottlieb Show. There's a guest you want on,
same thing, Same thing we got. We're backed up on people.
You're gonna love some of our upcoming episodes. Remember to subscribe,
download and uh review and and write one of those comments,
hopefully a good one. There's a chance I get a
(50:51):
little bit more money if it's a good comment. I
hope you enjoyed it. Thanks to Coach Martin. I'm Doug Gottlieb.
This is all
Hey, what I welcome in. I'm Doug glib and this
is the all new All Fall, All Basketball, all of
the time. UM, I will tell you that, uh, we
have a special guest on this all bolt. Mike Martin
is the head coach of Brown and UM he's a
(00:27):
bit of a young fellow, right he got the job
at twenty nine years old. And Brown hasn't played basketball
this year. He joined me and it was right after
or in between double workout days, but the first day
they've been allowed back in the gym since early March
last year. Think about that kind of around his team
(00:48):
was he learned? How is he connected with his players?
How did you get this job? You know why? Brown?
He was actually offered offered to go to play at Harvard.
He chose Brown over them, amazing of course, launched his career,
his life, etcetera, etcetera. He'll he'll join this upcoming. I
think you'll really enjoy that. UM. Okay, there's a couple
(01:10):
of things I want to get to in college basketball
that I've I've seen and I I'm fascinated by. Got
a chance to see Illinois and Iowa last week in person,
and it's it's interesting to me because I love watching
uh Luca Garza play, and I really like watching Kofe
(01:30):
Coburn playing. Kofe. I got chance to coach in this
Pengos All American camp. It's not a ton of coaching,
but you could be around the kids and and um, Actually,
Posh Alexander was my point guard. Cope was my big guy.
They're both having really impactful times in college. But Kofe
was just he was just like a light bulb. He
just lit up the room. Man. He was such a
(01:51):
great kid to be around. What's fascinating is if you
went back twenty five years ago. Both those guys are
lottery picks. And Garza has an amazing touch. He knows
how a whole position, He knows angles you can score
in the post. He can shoot threes, do a little
bit of everything offensively with the basketball. But I I
(02:13):
don't know how he plays in the NBA meaningful starting minutes,
because you know, he's like he's just like a college
kind of Ennis Cantor. He's a bucket, but everybody that
goes at him is going to be a bucket to.
He just struggles in terms of lateral But if you
think about any thing about all the other parts of
his game which have improved. The defense is a little
(02:34):
bit better, and it could still continue to improve. I
do think he probably needs to drop some weight to
become a little bit more agile. And I'm guessing that
if you asked him, he would say, yeah, I need
that strength and wait the whole position. He's a tremendous
low post scorer just touch, has all the moves, incredible fluidity,
great hands, and they do a really good job of
(02:55):
getting him the basketball. There's good a post feeding team
as you're gonna find in college who really really good UM.
And I like when they play two bigs more than
when they play their kind of four out or sometimes
five out sort of look. I do think that they
lack the guy who can break you down, UM. But
(03:16):
because so many of them can play out of the post,
I think I think Connor McCaffrey can play out of
the posts some as well as Garza. I think they
can break down defenses in that way, but I would
and they just their problems stopping people, but they do
not have any problem scoring. Illinois. I owe Desima, you
(03:36):
know he played in He was so efficient in the
game that I saw and you watch him now. I
don't know how much game he has in terms of
creating his own off the dribble. So I don't know
if he'll be a star at the next level. But
to play for Brad, you've got a guard, so he
guards and he can. He can clearly has improved his shooting.
(03:57):
He's a tremendous layup maker, finisher. I think he's gonna
have a good career. I think playing for bred Underwood
is it's a very good mix of what he needed.
The discipline he needed, defense but he still needs in
his game, and and some of the some of the
way in which they're creating offense for him. But I
like the Illinois team. There's no reason to think they
can't compete in that second weekend to get to get
(04:22):
to a final four. They're they're they're good, they're deep. Um,
they change paces depending on who they come out the
bench with. Like that's a that's a good team, and
Brad has like quietly turned that thing around. Meanwhile, you
have the Michigan States of the world, which continue to struggle. Um,
you know, I I don't know what happens in Michigan
(04:44):
State in the future. Obviously they need better point guard
play and better leadership. They did start to hit some
shots against Iowa, so maybe some of the stuff turns around.
But I saw those two teams and I was intrigued
by both big guys. But there was a little little
confirmation there and that I don't think either have great
NBA like Kofe Coburn. De Median reminds me of a
(05:06):
little bit better version of Jehidi White who played at
Georgetown did play in the NBA. Just a massive human being, massive,
but not really athletically lateral ladder, the athletic enough, not
really quick enough in terms of a rim runner, and
you know a guy who can roll and run to
the rim. I think that both make the league guards
(05:28):
a slightly more impact because he can score, but neither
are are perennial starters. I've also got a chance to
see a lot of Mountain West basketball, and the the
top four teams are far above UM, far above the
the bottom teams. In that I mean, I think Boyse
(05:48):
is really really good. I get a chance to see
them in person. Taking on Nevada. Nevada is a team
that I think has it's a it's young, a bunch
of potential for the future this year, there's they've still
been successful kind of they're in that that mix of
they're not one of the top four, but they are
closing and improving fast after sweeping U and o V
(06:09):
going back to last weekend, but now they were swept
at Wyoming showing their their youth before before we uh,
we have Mike Martin joined us. One of his former
players is one of the two stars for the Wolfpack,
Desmond Cambridge Jr. Stud originally from Nashville, Tennessee. Fifteen a game,
(06:29):
four and a half, rebounds, two and a half assist.
And then they have Grant Sheerfield who is a sophomore. Uh.
He grew up in Kansas, then moved to Fort Worth
with like sixth grade, was at Sunrise Christian Academy, that
was gonna go to u c l A played for
Alfred Alford, gets fired, he goes to Wichita, starts half
the year. Now in his sophomore year, he's playing for Nevada.
(06:50):
Eighteen and a half a game, five and a half, assist,
a game, stealing a half, a game four boards, shoots
forty thirty six and eighty seven And I mean this kid,
he's really good. He's he's tremendous. I don't think they
have this year, the overall older bodies it's gonna take
to compete. They got Zaye meets Um. They also have
(07:15):
Warren Washington, who's a transfer from Morgan State and he
barely played his first year, didn't play, sitting out, so
he's a redshirt sophomore, but just kind of coming into
his own. Like they're gonna be good. They're gonna be
really good in the future. Kamie him as a kid
from Arizona. Uh, he kind of splits time at the
center position as a shop blocker, can also step out
(07:36):
and make some threes with Warren Washington. Um. I you
know Alfred, some people didn't like Alfred at u c
l A. Obviously it didn't end, it didn't end crazy well.
They didn't get to the final four the way that
Brad Holland did. Let me see Brad Holland, that Ben
Howland did. Brad Holland of course from the U c
l A, Guy USD. But but there's there's something about
(08:00):
all Fords ability in the Mountain West just dominate. And
I think we're like a year away from seeing Nevada
as the top twenty five team, and I don't think
any of these guys are pros. Surefield might be a
pro eventually, but it's like not. He's building a program
that has some sustainability, so it's gonna be pretty cool
to see exactly what what they can do. Speaking of
(08:22):
Desmond Cambridge Jr. He began his career playing for Our Guest.
Our Guests is a talented head coach at Brown. Of course,
Brown part of the Ivy League. They have not played
a game and will not play a game this season
during his time at Brown. Remember, the IVY League has
really cranked up in terms of the level of talent
in the league. You go back to two thousand, two
(08:45):
twenty games for the first time, they got to the
cb I quarterfinals. Last year they were eight and six
in conference play before of course, it was shut down
due to COVID concerns and they they have not obviously played.
He only had really one tough year's fourth year there,
but as a performer Brown player. He got the job
at twenty nine years old. How did he get it?
What's he learned? How would he change all these different things?
(09:06):
Let's welcome in. He's head coach of the Brown Bears
Mike Martin. Be sure to catch the live edition of
The Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at three pm Easter noon
Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio
a app. So you grew up in Warre in Massachusetts, Like,
how do I how do I pronounce it Agonwa? But
(09:29):
say it? Say it? When you were growing up in Agawam,
how would you say it? I don't have the Boston accent,
I know, but everybody does. Everybody everybody else have the
Agawam the Boston accent, not in the western part of
the state. Really, you know, it's interesting. It's interesting. I
think people having spent a bunch of time in the Northeast,
(09:50):
I don't know if people understand, like there's a perception
of like Boston, like, well everybody in Boston is you know, like, um,
it's like, you know, all the incredible colleges there, it's
very sophisticated. Like you go to western mass and the
percentage of Rednecks there is just as high as it
is in any other rural part of the countries that
(10:13):
it's at a fair fair parallel. So the people in
the folks in Boston, Eastern mass would say there's nothing
west of fives, like an interstate twenty miles west of Boston.
So like for me, yeah, I'm out in the middle
of nowhere. If you're from Boston, they probably even know
what Aguham is other than and we border Springfield, which
is where the Hall of Fame is and we have
(10:33):
a six Flags, So I think that's fair. Yeah, yes,
six fights. It's big, but it's definitely they definitely kind
of get your red neck on, Like I I've always
been to that, like Kenny Chesney concert at fox in Foxboro,
and like you go right and you're like, dude, there
are a lot of rednecks here. They're like yea, Like
Massachusetts is not all Boston anyway. Um, growing up, what
(10:57):
was how did you fall in love with basketball? Yeah?
My father was a high school coach for twenty plus years,
and you know when I was young, he had had
some great teams at Commerce High School before I was
born in Springfield, mass he sent Mark Hall to Minnesota. Uh,
you know, Nate Blunt played the Temple. He had some
great players at Commerce UM and then he took the
job at ad one On High School, which is where
(11:19):
I grew up. UM and you know, I grew up
going to his practices, going to his games. I was
the ball boy. I loved it. I rode the bus
and and that's how I fell in love with with
the sport. And uh, you know, just fortunate that. Uh
you know, my father was a coach, much like yours.
How did you fall in love with basketball? So my
father was a long time high school coach twenty plus years.
(11:40):
He had some great players at Commerce High School in Springfield,
mass Mark Hall who played uh Minnesota with Kevin McHale,
Nate Blunt who went down to Temple in Philly. Uh.
But then you know what I remembers when he was
the coach at Agwham High School, which is in the
suburb and right outside Springfield, and uh, you know, just
grew up as a ball boy three or four years old,
going every practice, right in the bus, going every game.
(12:02):
And uh fortunate that my father was a coach and
fell in love with the sport through that. Uh. Probably
very similar to you, you know, growing up the son
of a coach. Yeah, it's interesting because you know, my
my dad was when he was the head coach until
I was six, and he was an assistant coach at
(12:22):
Long Beach State until I was nine or ten, and
then he was an assistant coach at Oregon State for
a year. But he went up there and we stayed
in southern California, and then he was you know, he
kind of bounced around doing stuff and started as an
auth coach. So I didn't have necessary like a high
school team um to to to like being to be
(12:44):
drawn to like it became my brother's teams, my brother's
high school team. I was a ball boy for when
your when your dad was a coach. Every I found
every coach's kid has a guy who when they grew
up they idolized, like that was their guy? Who was
your guy? Who is the guy? Like that's who I
want to be. Yes. So his best player at Aguam
was a guy by the name of Jeff Peterson who
(13:05):
won uh, you know, the Lahovich Award, which is like
the top player in Hampton County, Western Massachusetts, Berkshire and
h Hampshire counties as well. But he brought my father's
team the district finals they where they lost to a
good chick be comp team. But that was probably I
was six seven years old and like I wanted to
be Jeff Peterson. Yeah. Um, what was your dad like
(13:27):
he's a coach? Yeah? Intense? Uh you know, Um he was.
He played football, baseball, basketball in high school. He ended
up playing basketball in college at North Adams State because
he U he blew out his knees so he couldn't
play football. But very you know, we're gonna play hard. Uh,
We're gonna outwork you, We're gonna defend you intense. Uh.
(13:49):
You know. He demanded a lot of his players and um,
you know coached him hart. Yeah. It's it's interesting, Um
that now of his style, What of his style is
how you coach? What of his style is the opposite
of how you coach? So we're gonna coach you hard,
We're gonna demand an awful lot, We're gonna care about you.
(14:10):
We're gonna love you off the court, just like my
father did with all his players. Um. You know, I
think I was really influenced from Glenn Miller, who was
my college coach at Brown. He recruited me to Brown.
He got me into the profession of coaching. Uh and uh,
you know, I think I picked up a lot of
you know, coach Miller's attention to you know, detail, how
to run offense, How to you know, prepare a team? Um,
(14:32):
so I think I would. I would say I'm a
blend of both. Um. It's interesting, right because that generation,
like my dad, I'll never forget we ran like little
Ralph Miller one four high right, maybe a little highball screen,
but like the old school, like just put the big
out the top of the key, right, um, you know,
(14:52):
and dribbling space off of it, and like that was
kind of it. Like my son's my son asked me
like that, what was what was grandpa Us practice? Like
I was like, well, you know, he did fundamentals, you know,
a ton of passing every day, and then did transition
stuff and then press break you know, because like Gray,
you everything's press break and then just a little half
court offensive stuff. He's like, wow, you run a lot
(15:14):
of plays and sets. And I was like, well, I
feel like basketball is a lot more technical now, like
it's just coached, like you said, coach differently. You know.
I played for Very Sutton and he never drove a
play like, no one time. I never, not a single time.
Now Sean his son would drop the plays and he
would some you know, he'd grab it and show somebody's
(15:36):
specific in terms of spacing, but he never like, hey,
we need a bucket, like let's run this at the
end of the game. And I was just amazing when
I coach, I situational coaching to me is really important.
You know. I tried like we had a bounced places
that were that were good, and we scored on we
frankly scored on him because I was passing the ball um.
But but I spend like that's an easy place to
(15:58):
not just show off. But the deal points right, and
I think that is important. Whereas it does feel like
there's that that old school of coaches was just like,
how can we get you to play hard? How can
we get you to play unselfish? And then can you
play a little bit harder and a little bit more unselfish?
And then and then like they also would kind of
(16:20):
adjust to the which kids, which kids could they mf
and which kids that had needed the pat in the back.
Other than that, there wasn't a lot of a lot
of magic to it, right, I am, I am I
crazy to think that's a little bit of the old
school mental mentality coaches. I think it's so true, and
I think the best coaches now have a great blend
of of of both, Doug Right, I mean, that's that's
fascinating to hear about. Coach Sutton never drawn up a
(16:42):
play and obviously, you know who had more success than him,
hardly anyone. Right. He recruited really good players, he coached,
he loves you, and he demanded an awful lot and uh,
you know you think about him and his his career
and it's it's it was so incredibly successful. But yeah,
I think like we're like a school fundamentals values, play hard, play, unselfishly,
(17:04):
share the ball, uh with you know some new school
new aged uh, you know, spacing on offense, defensive concepts. Uh.
I think that, you know, gosh, I'd love to hopefully
one day be a great blend of both. Yeah, that's
it's a I think the best are I think I
think the absolute the best are. Um, why why did
(17:24):
you pick Brown? Like you're growing up Western mass Because
back then the Ivy League was Penn and Princeton and
that's it, like those are the everybody else playing for
third and they didn't recruit me. So the current pen
coach right now, Steve dunhe was on staff and coach
Dumphy obviously they had incredible teams. I joked with Steve.
You know, we're good friends. Now. Uh, they didn't think
(17:45):
I was good enough and and and they're right. They
won a lot IVY championships. Uh. I was recruited by
Brown and Harvard. You know, quite a few Patriot legue schools. Um.
You know, so you've turned down Harvard? I did. I
did Frank Sell and so Frank Sullivan. I was a
coach at Harvard before Tommy Amaker, great guy, good and
(18:07):
uh you know, I just you know, I clicked with
coach Miller and his staff. Call me crazy. I love
the state of Rhode Island, my family and Rhode Island. Uh.
You know, here's the deal. My father was a coach
and a teacher. My you know, became an a d
My mother was a longtime middle school teacher. UM. Academics
were always important. It was like, all right, I got
Brown and Harvard the IVY League. It's really good. You know,
(18:29):
you can't do better than the IVY League from an
educational academic standpoint. I want to go where I'm gonna
be happiest, where I felt like I'd fit in better.
And I just you know what it was a gut decision. Uh.
Coach Sullivan was shocked when I told him I'm choosing Brown.
He had me on the phone and he was so
gracious about it, but he's like, really, like your western
Massachusetts coming to Harvard. That's not and and and they
(18:52):
did a good job recruiting me. I just maybe I
was naive. I don't regret it for a minute. It
was the best decision for me. I met my wife,
your unbelievable teammates who are lifelong friends, and um, I'm
probably not the coach at Brown if I didn't play here,
no question, no question. And it's it's always interesting on
how I don't know if high school kids understand how
(19:13):
big a decision that is and how it's aid. I
remember as a kid, choose your own adventure books. No, okay,
there's like a lot about dragons, and I hated to read.
And I remember, like in fourth grade or fifth grade
or something, it took me to a reading specialist and
they turned me onto these choose your own adventure books
and it was basically, you get to the end of
(19:34):
the page and you had to make one of three
decisions and the book would be turned to page ten.
If you want this at age fifteen, you want this right,
and it would the book would change based upon what
decision you made. And that's kind of how life is,
especially picking a college, right, It's where your best friends,
probably your spouse when you need a job. Those are
the people that lums that you're going to count on.
(19:55):
Wherever that is, that's where you're probably gonna live. You know,
Brown is a fascinating place because it's in the IVY League.
But I guarantee it's like the it's still probably the
least known, right, It's it really is. It's said, and
I'm not I'm not in any way trying to be
disrespectful like I but like you said, like what are
the ivylis goes like, oh, Princeton, Harvard Yale, you know,
(20:18):
like Princeton, Harvard, Yale, and then oh yeah, Pen's in
the IVYLA man who else? You know, Court Court Cornell.
I know it's beautiful. They get the Bridge. They've got
some other issues there, Okay, they got Dartmouth, which is
like the big party school out the middle of nowhere, right,
and they're like, who am I forgetting? Who am I forgetting?
Who am I forgetting? Forgetting Brown? Um, you're so you
(20:39):
show up a Brown, you're a freshman. What's Brown like
as a university? Yeah, it's it's an awesome place. I
mean we always every year, Doug. We always are you know,
either one or two or three. And these all these
surveys of who has the happiest students, who are the
happiest college students? A lot of it is because we
have an open curriculum. There's no required courses at Brown.
(21:00):
You there are zero core classes, zero requirements. So like
my thing in recruits is this, you never be in
a class you don't want to be in at Brown. Uh.
No one's gonna tell you have to take this class
to fill fulfilled requirement. Uh. It's it's an awesome place. Uh.
Unbelievable faculty. Um and really focused on the undergraduate experience.
We have a few men. Uh you know, we have
(21:20):
a big medical school. We have a few graduate programs,
but much more focused on undergrad When I was a freshman,
my eyes were literally opened. I had no I didn't
know what Wall Street was, I didn't know what Goldman
Sachs was. I didn't know any of those things. And
now the guys and girls I'm going to school with
are getting these jobs, these internships and all these amazing opportunities.
But I was focused on playing hoops. Uh, Coach Miller.
(21:43):
I was part of his first recruiting class. He took
over a program that didn't have a ton of success.
I had a chance to play early. I started as
a freshman, and you know I had great teammates. Earl
Hunts are all time leading scorer. He was a year
ahead of me. He's now a partner at Goldman Sachs,
the trustee of the university. Um, you know, just when
to school with unbelievable people. Uh, with my closest friends
(22:04):
to this day. And um, you know we uh we
had some success. We had four straight winning seasons, the
first time that ever happened in school history. We went
to the n i T my junior year, we went
twelve and two. Brand Dumphy's team at Penn went fourteen
and oh we lost a two close games to them.
The second was that when they had when they had Jerome,
(22:25):
No so Jerome's a little bit older me. They had
you got on Nick Way coach Archer Bond, Andy Toole,
the head coach at Robert Morris. They were they were
really good. Um was a good player and a good
key and a good coach. And then I think that
team lost to Oklahoma State. They did in OH three
exactly right in Boston. So that team at Penn won
the Big Five. There were four and no in the
(22:46):
Philadelphia Big Five. They went fourteen and know in our
league we lost to him by three in a game
here at Brown, Chris Berman came in and introduced the
starting line ups from the balcony he had a place
electric and I still say we were ten and one.
They were eleven and all or whatever it was. They
had zero losses. We had one going into the game.
I tore my a c L the week before, uh
(23:07):
and I still say if I had played, we would
have at least tied for the title thirteen and one
for one game playoff. And I'll argue that with anybody,
But unfortunately can't go back and untear my a c O.
What for somebody who experienced it at its peak? What
was the poluster like to play? And as a visiting player.
(23:28):
So I went through my first game ever as not
my first game, but my first time ever being in
the plus row. Was my freshman year. Again, they didn't
recruit me. So I went there and played them, and
we had just lost the tight win the Princeton the
Friday night, and we came out there and played them,
and I fell in love with It's an awesome place.
I was fortunately coached there for six years. UM my
(23:48):
junior year, we went down there and we were on
defeeded in the league. They were undefeeding in the league.
The place was sold out. It was what was what
was on the rollout side? That's the big question. What
was on the rollout side when you guys came down there.
All I've remember is I had a little goatee and
they were killing me from my gotee. And I don't
remember the rollout, but I remember them being all over
(24:08):
me from my goateee. And I don't think I've ever
grown facial hair since because of um have we lost
some of that? It feels like like, look, you and
I we we love the sport, and we love the
college sport. And I have my own thoughts on on
(24:28):
the negative influences of that sport of the sport. But
I do feel like and I hate being that guy
like back in my day, but and maybe even previous
to me, but in that area, like it was better,
the fan interaction was better because the games weren't all
on TV. I would say it's part of it. Um.
(24:49):
The transferring I think really hurts it because you don't
know like they who I have no emotional investment in
uh in a lot of these players, um, And I
think that not just the transfer, but guys so many
have have come and gone to the NBA or two
what they think is greener pastures. But even for the
(25:09):
IVY League, which um, the talent I believe is better
now or over the last ten years, Harvard changing what
they changed in order to and Tommy getting in there
and recruiting a higher level has raised everybody like you've
had you had Desmond Cambers. I guess a big time
that kid can play for instance, that kids can play,
(25:32):
you know, like it's the whole level of the league
is great. But I don't feel like there's the same
passion at a pen at a princeton Um that there
used to be. And of course that's the trickle down
from the It's not the same at the big boys.
Am I wrong? You experience it obviously this year I
want to get into But do you feel like the
(25:53):
the fandom the home court environments has has changed for
the worst over the past five years or so. That's
a great question, and I have to give it more thought.
I mean, everyone has so many other options to do
with their you know, with their time now. I mean,
like it's when we played in the late nineties, early
two thousands, there was no not as many options for
college students. So like I think there's still a big
(26:14):
game on a college campus. I still don't think there's
anything like it, but the consistency of uh, sellout crowds
and passion, um, you know, in our league. Um, yeah,
it's probably a little different. I'm I can't say you're
wrong for sure, but like you know, we've had you know,
we've had some great crowds here. We've averaged more people
in the last couple of years because we've been good
than ever before. So um, you know, we've got to
(26:36):
make it an event. Like I think, as a coach
at a college program, if you want, like you got
to make it an event on your campus, and you
have to get everyone involved. And we say all the time.
When we went our next IVY title and we only
have one in our program history, and that was six
but when we do it, it's gonna be everyone. It's
gonna be the community, it's gonna be the students, it's
gonna be the president, the a D, the donors, that fans, everyone,
(26:57):
because that's what it's gonna take, and we want everyone
to kind of be feel that ownership. And since that,
Doug so like, come on, it's an event. We're gonna
You know, we've got Yale, they won the league last year,
and we we've done a fairly good job of creating
some momentum and some excitement here at Brown. Um, but
I I can't tell you. I can't say you're wrong. Um.
(27:20):
You you get done playing and now you're like, okay,
now what do I do? Right? Obviously you have a
Brown degree. Um, you got a scar in your needed
to show for your time there, became a very good
starting point guard. You went and played in Ireland for
a year. Right, what was that experience? What was that experience? Like,
so I was a two guard. I wasn't. I didn't
handle it well enough to play point But uh yeah,
(27:44):
so I I interviewed you know I did, like, you know,
my my best I just told you my one of
my best friends and former teammates is now a partner
of Goldman Sachs. You know, I see him and all
these other folks getting these great internships, these great jobs.
Uh So I interviewed and I accepted a job with
a bootie investment bank called Adams Harkness and Hill. I
was gonna go work for them in Boston. I got
(28:05):
the job offering like November December of my senior year,
which I was, you know, really excited about. And then
the season ended. We had another good year my senior year,
not quite as good as my junior year were when
we were twelve and two, but we finished ten and
four in the league's second place. And I'm like, you know,
I know I'm not gonna make a lot of money playing,
but I gotta keep playing. I just I wanted to
(28:25):
keep playing. I did it, had a great experience, and um,
you know, turned down the job in investment banking. I
never forget calling the firm. It was a couple of
Brown former Brown football players who you know, we're partners
at the firm, and helped me get the opportunity, and
I thank them, but told him I had to pursue this,
and and uh then I came back and coach Millard
offered me a job to be an assistant coach at
(28:45):
Brown volunteer assistant coach. But I was gonna be an
assistant coach. I was gonna be on the court. I
was gonna be on the road recruiting twenty two years old,
about to turn twenty three, and I didn't need to
make any money and it was the best. You know,
so many people started as gas or administrative. I started
as an assistant coach at the Division one level, recruiting
nationally and uh it got me a great start into
(29:06):
the coaching professional. Where did you live making no money?
I lived in a little apartment on the east side
of Providence, like on the third floor of UH. A
donor at an alumni house. He let me live up there.
But my my girlfriend at the time was in Boston,
so I probably she's now my wife. I probably spent
more time up there than I did down in Province. Uh.
(29:28):
Providence is a really cool and kind of unique, underrated
city for somebody who hasn't been, Like, you come to town,
go here to eat. Where's the place? Gosh, there's so
many I know. I would tell you, Sienna, you have
to go to Federal Hill, Federal Hills like you know,
little little really um, but like you can get it all.
(29:49):
Seafood Italian Um, you can get a great steak downtown.
I'd go to Sienna and Federal Hill. Um. There's there's
so many good options. The city of Providence. It's big
and off that you know, you can have a great food,
great theater, great um. You know, places to go out
and shop and have fun. But like every almost every
(30:11):
town in the state, and you can get within him
with you can get anywhere in the state within an hour.
There's no two points in our state that are more
than one hour away. But there's so many unbelievable beach
communities here. It's two doug And in summertime, Newport and
Arrogance it Westerly. Uh. It's an awesome place to live
and it's a really under underrated part of our country. Um. Okay,
(30:32):
so ah, how did you get the job? Well? Uh,
our r A D. Jack Hayes, who has actually just
uh you know, left to pursue uh other professional opportunities.
He was just hired. He was the a D at
Hofstra before coming to Brown two thousand twelve. I coached
(30:54):
a guy you know well, Zach Rosen, who was an
awesome point guard at Penn and he was Big five
and Ivy League Player of the Year and he he
helped us have a great season. He led us to
a great season. Jerome Allen was our head coach at
Penn and Dan Lee Vivitz was on the staff. We had.
We had a great staff staff. Right, Dan becomes ahead,
Dan becomes a head coach. I mean, Jerome is a
legend the league. And you become a head coach off
(31:16):
that staff. And we know anybody was that uh any
Zack knows he had an incredible career. Um, okay, so good,
I'm sorry. Prior to that. John Gallagher who's the head
coach at Hartford was Harvard. Yeah, so crazy. Um and
uh so anyways to Hartford on one staff, that's right,
that's right. Uh well, so they were never on the
(31:37):
staff at the same time. But it is interesting, right
Harvard hired two guys essentially have the same staff, one
to replaced the other. When when Dan, when when Dan
decided I've had enough. It was amazing And the and
the funny thing is so Steve Donny, who after the
Sweet sixteen at Cornell got to Boston College job. John
Gallagher was gonna leave Penn to become an assistant at
Boston College. When John left Penn, then Dan was interested
(32:00):
coming back to Philadelphia and you know helping Jerome and
our staff, and that opened the vacancy at Hartford. But yeah,
small world, crazy uh crazy story. Um, the job was
when I was twenty nine years old. We had had success,
like I said, at Penn the last couple of years,
and uh, you know I was along. I knew pretty much.
You know, I had a little bit of a relationship
with Jack Hayes. Not much you had just come from Hofstra,
(32:21):
but we knew a lot of mutual people and uh,
you know, there was a lot of people involved. I
think you know, Jack listened to that, knew me, and
you know, knew the type of person I was, uh
you know, my acumen as a coach and hopefully ability
to lead. And here we are eight and a half
years later. Okay, so eight and a half years ago,
(32:42):
Like taking over an IVY league is not like taking
over anywhere else, right, It's not just you know, like
you can't go like I'm gonna get really these sucking
dudes and I'm gonna get some new dudes, and we're
gonna get some juicos and some transfers and let's roll
right you kinda this is what you got, and then
you gotta go recruit, and you know, you go back
and eight and years ago, Um, you know, the landscape
(33:03):
of the league was dramatically different. Um okay, so what
do you remember about your first year in terms of Okay,
now you're setting your own practice plans, you're setting your
own recruiting. Um, you're telling your you have to hire
a stop but the budget budget constraints. You also have
to be realistic, not not just with grades for the
(33:25):
IBY League, but there are kids in the IVY League
who is They're not going to consider brown, right, They're
just not. So there's the it's not an easy job
when you first take it over and you have your
current players that are there before that you're not running
off like you don't run off dudes in the idea, right,
what what what's that first year? Like? Yes, so I
(33:45):
was hired June one, So like you can't even get
recruits in late because admissions timelines and even transfers couldn't
come because the emissions transferre admission deadline in the past.
So it was like I was hired. My press conference
was June one, and the guys that were left that
that was my team. And I was so fortunate. I
inherited great kids, good talent, um, just not a ton
(34:06):
of depth. We had ten guys on our roster the
first year. Um, you know, just through through you know,
a couple of different reasons. We had ten guys on
the roster. Once we started getting going, and um, we
we we we thought we had a good year, would
beat Providence College at home. We went seven and seven
in the IVY League. We finished in fourth. We beat
Princeton at the end of the season. If Princeton had won,
(34:26):
they would have tied with Harvard for the IVY title,
and we ended up beating him. So you know, Harvard
wanted out right. Uh, those guys, I had no idea
what I was doing. Um, I you know, thought I
knew everything like all assistants do. And you know what
I asked those guys to do, they did it. They
did it with unbelievable passion and spirit, and they did
it with great chemistry. And uh, you know, we we
(34:49):
They made me look like I knew what I was
doing and uh, you know, recruiting God so offensively. Okay,
every assistant who sits there is like, man, I get
my shot, Like we're gonna we're gonna do this. We're
gonna you know, we're gonna play. Everybody wants to play fast, right,
whoever sits, no matter who I guess. I'm guessing whoever
sat in the little Mirrymounts bench. You know, I was thinking,
(35:10):
we're gonna play even faster, like everybody wants to play
faster than you get in charge, Like, holy ship, we
play fast, we might just get just get run out
of this gym. And again, you had you had played,
and you'd played a certain style you've been assistant, which
is a little bit different style with with Drone specifically obviously,
and then you've grown up with your dad who had
his specific style. How did you your first year? What'd
(35:32):
your run? Did you say, hey, let's run the same
ship you guys have been running. Did you putting your
own stuff? What you do? Yeah? No, I I put
I put in my stuff. We did play. We played
slow though, because we had ten guys, and I was like,
we gotta if we're gonna win, which we want to win.
We don't you know, we want to build good habits
and we want to start winning right away. I thought
(35:53):
we had to play low possession games like no matter
who we were playing against. And I think we were
one of the slowest temple teams in the country that year.
And we defended you really well, you know, man to man,
we we we were very good defensively, and we were
good enough offensively. We had a couple of really good guards,
the first team all ivy guard and then a second
team all Ivy two guard and you know, we we
just ran a lot of sets that flowed into like
(36:15):
a four hour one in motion, and guys shared it. Um.
You know, we played through the low posts quite a bit.
And uh, you know, but we played slow. It was
like the opposite of what every new coach says. And
I probably said it my press conferents, we're gonna play fact. Sure,
I'm sure what you recruiting like, we want to play fast.
I never forget. So Kevin O'Neil was at Tennessee right
and and Lawrence Frank was his assistant. And I don't
(36:38):
know if you, I don't know if you ever got
recruited by those guys, but they used to just carpet
bombing with and so I'm sitting out after playing Utre Dame.
And one of my frustrations in playing for coach McLeod
was we didn't have an organized secondary break. He just
didn't which most people don't have now they just run,
you know, transition drag screens whenever. But even that we
didn't really do. And you know, like I was much
(36:59):
better than that open court it that I was in
the half court. And so I was committed to whoever
I wherever I go, like I gotta we gotta be
able to play faster because I just I'm not that
good in half court. I'll never forget there. Send me
like every day, like we want you and we're gonna
do this. And we got Vincent Yark, you know, we
got Yarboro. We got these guys. And I turned and
it was like this first year maybe at Tennessee and
(37:19):
I turn on the TV and they're playing Kentucky and
they had like eleven points at the half right and
they're just holding the ball and playing slow. Now, the
all you had to say in reality was like, hey,
these guys are very good. I need good players to
play fast. You know, we gotta shorten this thing, but
it was it was in the sale that was I
(37:40):
was just I was blown away, like it was one
of the It's like in football you have this as
a broadcast. Every defensive coordinator that's ever been higher at
the press conference says, we're gonna be aggressive, We're gonna
we're gonna blitz more. Right. If that was the case,
by two one, he will be blitzing every down. Right,
there was just eleven guys the last scriments. It's not
the reality of it, but that's what people want to hear.
(38:01):
What did you learn? What did you What did you learn?
Like you really smart coaches learn from things, learn from
personal experience. But remember learning from your first year, Well
so I probably learned it more so the last, uh,
you know, over the next of course, the next few years.
It's just how how fortunate I was like to inherit
the group that I had, and I made so many mistakes. Um,
(38:23):
you know as a young coach. Um, you know, I
think I learned, you know, I've I've definitely learned over
the last eight years who's right for us and the
right type of kids that are going to thrive under
the way we want to play. Right, are kind of
guys exactly right, say it again. I like that I'm
gonna use that kind of guy. But yeah, you know,
(38:46):
I think we you know, we've we've definitely involved and
we figured out you know how we wanna, you know
how we wanna. You know what our values are, you
know what we want to You know, you can't stand
for everything. Like early on, I thought we're gonna do
you know, all these different things offensively, defensively, Doug, and
you know you get to maybe one third of it,
you know what I mean, Like you you have a
great plan going in and you probably can only put
in one third of the things you you expect to
(39:07):
put in. So uh learned that I want to be
really good at a few things that really matter. And
you know the other thing, Yeah, we're gonna play play hard,
like like we're gonna compete, and we want guys who
are willing to battle through some adversity. We want to, uh,
you know, be very good defensively. Our last couple of
years we've been either one or two in the IVY
(39:28):
League and defensive efficiency. And you know that that's kind
of been through through experience, Like we've learned through having
some bad defensive teams here Brown, We've learned through having
some guys that maybe as hard as they worked, weren't
ever going to be the best defenders for us. So
we're gonna play hard, we're gonna share the ball, we're
gonna defend, and you know, I want to I want
to coach guys who are willing to battle through. Uh.
(39:50):
You know it's not you. You know how it is.
And you know, in our league or the Big Twelve
or the Pact, whatever league you're playing, you're gonna face
some tough moments and you know, you get to have
a certain type of uh values and standards that if
you're gonna pull through. I want to ask you more
off off recording. But I do think like the Desmond
Cambridge story is the perfect embodiment of the battle at
(40:12):
your level of basketball. Like you found a kid, super talented,
good grades, you play him right away, the averages went
eighteen a game for you as a sophomores and All
Ivy League kid, and then he leaves in transfers. I
guess upper level, Uh, if you will, what's that like
to experience? Like it? It's the lad I found you,
(40:33):
fostered your growth, built the thing around you. Things were
going good and now you're gone. I like, everybody has
you have the ability and he's you know, you have
the ability to do so, but what is that like
from your perspective? Yes, so we how about this? So
we found out about dez uh who's from Nashville, Tennessee.
And there's a guy who played not for my father
but against my father from Springfield, mass who called my
(40:56):
father and said are you going in relation to the
coach at Brown, Mike Martin Brown. And so anyways, long
story short, they send the video. You know, my father says,
I'm sure the kids not any good. But you know,
the guy wants me to send the video. I said
send it. We looked at it and we're like, yeah,
he's really good. And so we recruited him. We're so
fortunate that that we got him. Uh And you know,
I'm I'm grateful. Like Desmond was a very good players
(41:19):
rookie year in our league. He was an All ivy player.
He helped us win twenty games. That was the first
time in two thousand and eighteen nineteen that Brown had
ever won twenty games in the season. Doug, I think
we were the last Vision one program to ever win
twenty games, So he helped us, uh you know, create
some of the momentum. We still feel really good about.
He made a decision that he felt was best for him,
and we support him and you know, I've been watching
(41:40):
him and following him, and he's playing great for Nevada
right now. But he was part of the you know,
like the last two years, we've won more games that
than has ever been one in school history, thirty five games.
Uh des was a huge part of that. And you
know what, he also helped with us getting other recruits
because they saw him and how good he was. And
I was like, I want to go play a round
(42:00):
two because if that guy thinks Brown is the right place,
then I can do that. So um, you know, like
I thought this year, if we played, would have been
the best team I've ever coached. Uh In Desmond is
a huge part of building that. Um okay, last thing,
so you didn't have you finally have an IVY League
tournament only that got canceled last year, right and now
you haven't had a season, and at the time of
(42:22):
this recording, you just got your first chance to work
guys out, first chance all years since last March, right.
I know you you gotta go. You got other things.
I respect that. It's great to be back at the gym.
First question, what you've been doing. Man, I've spent a
ton of time in my family, my wife, Kristen. I
have three daughters, Kira's nine, Avery's eight, Tea and six. Uh,
(42:46):
you know, been coaching them in the street, you know,
when the weather is good. I've been doing drop off
and pick up every day at school. Uh. It's just
trying to stay connected to our players, you know. I
think that's your biggest role as a coach, you know.
And the hardest thing is when you're not in the
gym with him every day. You can't take him to lunch,
you can't you know, just go, you know, hang out
with him in the locker room. That's the hardest thing.
So try to stay connected with them however we can.
(43:06):
With the technology we have now, I've been watching more
basketball than ever before, you know, NBA, College, some European things,
and you know, like I joked with some donors on
a call the other night, I was like, we're gonna
be the most over coached team in the history of
basketball next year because I have all these great ideas. Obviously,
we gotta figure out what's good for us and what
fits our personnel. Um, but that's some of it. And
(43:28):
but today, like you said February four, it's the best.
I mean, just to be able to drive in this morning.
We had an eight am workout. We're in there all morning,
we're getting ready to go back out there. Uh, it's
it's it was just such a great feeling. And you know,
I'll never take for granted again, you know, just being
in the gym, here in the sneaker squeak, here in
the ball bounce, because uh, like you said, we weren't
(43:49):
in there since March seven. That's that's amazing. Okay, I
know you gotta go, but I got one more for you.
Give me something to learn. You're watching a ton of
ball something that like because so much. Tom Brandon is
a dear friend of mine, right and TB was, of
course eighteen years a head coached Vermont, and I'll never
forget when he was working with us at ESPN. You
(44:11):
know he would pull you aside, go my boy, when
you're coaching the team, you don't worry about any of
these other teams. You worried about your team. And maybe
even your league, like I don't, I don't know shit
about it, Like you gotta help me out, Like you
want to talk about ball, about what it's like, like
I can, but you know, I'm solely focused on my guys.
So now you're focused on your guys, but also these
(44:32):
other things, and it's just kind of an eye opening experience. Right.
What's one thing that that you've learned that you really
want to try and implement that you like. It can
be style of play, it can be anything, like I
I that's one of the things that we do is
we process things and try and implement them and things
we do like me even talking to you, I'm I
(44:52):
know what I want to do with my kids when
I gotta practice tonight. One thing that you're going to
try and implement that you've learned. So as in a
quick aside, you know who are so of your head coaches?
Right Brown, Yes, TJ, coach Brennan and T I mean
so coach Brennan is a dear friend of mine as well. Uh.
T J and I actually played on the same AU
(45:13):
team and Vermont was a school that recruited me. I
took a visit there, but I chose brown. Anyways, Uh,
you know what, the biggest thing I've learned is um
but by the way, by the way in best human
beings on the planet. No, no, I gotta I know,
you gotta go, and I want this, I want this answer.
(45:33):
But this is my this is my first TV story.
So I hadn't I hadn't covered him before, and they
had the year before they lost to be You in
the conference Tournament championship at bu so Dave Revson and
I are covering. It's like the first college basketball televised
game whatever. Uh cop and Wrath is coming off like
a broken wrist or something. We don't know if he
(45:54):
was gonna play. And we roll into We roll into
Burlington and like the day before their biggest game ever
on ESPN, he canceled practice, canceled practice, no practice. We
get there, we're like, first practice, like TB canceled. So
the next day we show up at the game and
(46:15):
he's like, where were you? And I go, what do
you mean? It's like that was there. I don't know
what the restaurant is in town that he always Yeah,
he was just we were like, well you didn't invite us?
Who a bte you? Everybody knows I'm down there, Like,
just ask anybody that's where I am. Right, Um, there
wasn't there wasn't a bill that he didn't pick up.
(46:35):
There wasn't a time in which he had a bad day.
Like of the top ten human beings I've come into
contact with in my life, Tom Brendon is absolutely on
that list. We could talk about him forever. T used
to have his radio show every morning and it was
like the highest rated radio show in Vermont, and he
would call t J would tell stories. He'd call the
guys at like six in the morning in their dorm
rooms and wake him up and you know, get him on,
(46:57):
get him on the show. But yeah, awesome, awesome guy. Um.
But anyways, I would tell you this, I already hinted
at it. The biggest thing I've learned, Like, We're not
gonna I'm never gonna like, I'm never gonna take for
granted the opportunity to be with my guys like and
and be in the gym and uh, you know, support
them however I can. Obviously, we've seen so many awful
things happened in the last eleven months since we were
(47:18):
on the court, right, and how can we support uh
these guys um as as their coaches. Technically, I would
tell you I've watched a lot of the spacing around
European uh, you know, especially in Spain. Uh, some of
the spacing they use in ball screens. And there's a
guy Mancho Fernandez who coaches ober Dorio, and he runs
like a four corner pick and roll offense, and you know,
(47:40):
we're trying to look at that a little bit maybe
add you know, some type of dribble drive aspects while
still being able to get to some of the good
off ball cutting and screening actions that we've always tried
to do. Like Coach Miller was a motion offense, uh,
you know type of guy, and you know we've tried
to do that. Played through the big at the low post,
play are big at the high closed pay, played through
(48:01):
our big at the top of the key in a
five out situation. Can we kind of fuse all that?
That's my that's kind of been my biggest project. And
I think with our personnel, what we'll have next year
if we can we confuse like a dribble drive with
some spread pack and roll and you know, playing through
our our big a different areas of the floor. Maybe
we'll have a chance because our offense needs to get
a lot better. Well, listen, I'd like to get back
(48:23):
in the gym. I know how happy you are. I
do want at some point, if you have a moment,
to do a pod on on some of those European
coaches and on some of the different aspects that it
might be a little technical to do in an audio conversation,
but I don't know. I I dig it, and I
think if I dig it and you do, then there'll
be enough. This pod is design for people who give
(48:44):
a shit about hoop, right, And that's the whole idea
about it. All right, that's all ball, all ball, all
I could. I could talk ball any any time of day.
So you just let me know. I'm gonna tell you
this before you go. I gotta so. My My son's eleven.
He plays eleven U twelve year case plased thirteen. I
got a thirteen YOUW team, and I sent out a
(49:04):
text to the parents and I said, I got I
finally have a good team. I said, look, I don't
think we'll win one of those elite level We're playing
in a big tournament this weekend, the big one next weekend,
like the gold level stuff I want to tournament. I
was like, but what I want your kids to experience
on the micro is what in the macro you experience
(49:25):
in college ball, which is being a part of the team,
being better as one than you are individually, right, sharing
the ball, sharing the success, even sharing the losses together
like that. Those kind of things are what what this
deal is about, you know, and we make it about
I think so many times the wrong things. To me,
that's the that's the right things. And I love how
(49:46):
I have seen your teams play, and I I like
how your teams play, and I agree like evolving offensively.
We expect players to evolve. Coaches got to evolve too.
You can't just keep doing the same ship over and
over again expecting a different result, no doubt out, Doug,
thanks so much, great to be with you. Get back
in the gym. Thanks man. Be sure to catch the
live edition of The Doug Gottlieb Show weekdays at three
(50:08):
pm Easter noon Pacific. That was awesome. That was really
interesting stuff. We'll have to have coach Martin back on.
We'll talk some XS and ose and some coaching a
little more detailed things, but I thought that was just
a fascinating talk. Hope you enjoyed it. Remember my show,
The Doug Gotlip Show three six Eastern twelve, three Pacific
on Fox Sport Tradio, Fox Sport Trade dot Com. You
can also download the pot if you want. In the meantime,
(50:31):
if you have college basketball NBA questions, feel free tweet
at me at Gottlieb Show. There's a guest you want on,
same thing, Same thing we got. We're backed up on people.
You're gonna love some of our upcoming episodes. Remember to subscribe,
download and uh review and and write one of those comments,
hopefully a good one. There's a chance I get a
(50:51):
little bit more money if it's a good comment. I
hope you enjoyed it. Thanks to Coach Martin. I'm Doug Gottlieb.
This is all
Host
Doug Gottlieb
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