NBA's big small market problem; Zion banking off Duke's brand; SIU Edwardsville HC Brian Barone talks hoops

This week, Gottlieb looks at the hopeless situation small market teams in today's NBA, why Zion Williamson's $75 million shoe deal is due in large part to growing his brand at Duke. Doug's guest is new SIU-Edwardsville Head Coach Brian Barone who discusses learning from his father - and legendary college coach - Tony Barone, his recent passing, and his plans for his first DI coaching gig. Download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts:

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, welcome, and I'm Doug Gottlieban. You are listening to
the All Ball podcasts, All Basketball all the time. We
can get into summer recruiting in the summer circuit, we
can get into the NBA. As free agency has died down,
I continue to point out that these small market teams
are going to be ticked right when Michael Jordan's so funny,

(00:29):
Like all these players who say Durant said it, Lebron
said that they want to be owners, Michael Jordan actually
is an owner, and he's ticked about how some of
this free agency stuff went down. And wait, Kemba agreed
to a deal right after the deadline. How did that
happen if you're not supposed to talk to each other,
you know, And he's a guy that didn't want to

(00:51):
pay Kemba the supermax because he didn't think it was
worth it. Here's the problem with owning a team in
a small market. If yet you you draft the right guy,
you nurture his growth, he plays for you, you you have
to give him a max or a super max contract.
If you do that, you are not going to make

(01:12):
money one and like, unless you put a team around
him and put a team around him really good one
you're gonna go into luxury tax. You go into luxury tax,
or even if you're paying the top end of the
salary scale before luxury tex, you're not making money on
a daily basis. You're just not. Now you can tell me, well, Doug,
these owners make money and the value the franchise, that's great,

(01:35):
But you know when you reap the benefits and the
value of the franchise when you sell the franchise. And
most people don't buy an NBA franchise thinking, man, I
can't wait till I sell this thing. That's not the
idea you want to see it through, So you can't.
You don't have the non basketball generated income the way
that the Lakers do, or the Knicks do, or the

(01:57):
Nets may or the Rockets may being a bigger market
and bigger local TV stuff and and be able to
withstand or just you have to have ridiculously deep pockets
in order to go into luxury tax and pay these salaries.
So you damn if you're doing if damn don't you
either you either overpay for guys and lose money hoping

(02:19):
to gamble and win a championship one year, or you
try to maintain your books road organically, knowing that you're
gonna make some money, but you're not gonna win championships.
It's a really hard thing. I don't know how to
fix it, but I do know that eventually this is
This is one of the reasons that college athletics it

(02:43):
takes time to change because you have half of the
programs aren't making money on their college sports teams, and uh,
they have to be more self sufficient than they ever
used to be. And so while Alabama in Texas and
Ohio State and l s U they're killing it in football,
lots of other programs like Yukon or not. When you
have one league in the NBA where it's it's there's

(03:06):
a there's almost bipolar in terms of the revenues the values.
You have the same thing in college sports. Let me
go back to college sports as well. I know many
of you are brought up under the belief that somehow
the n c A and college athletics are the bad
guys because they make some money on athletes, their name
and image and likeness. The whole thing is bullshit. You've

(03:32):
been fed bullshit by people in the media. Yeah, if
you don't believe me. If you don't believe me, I'll
give you Zion Williamson. Okay, Now, Zion Williamson ingesting to
deal with Jordan Brand for what's supposedly more than ten
million dollars a year for five years. Let's say it's

(03:52):
fifty million dollars. Last year Zion Williamson left high school,
he could have gone straight to the G League and
even as a YouTube sensation. Maybe he signs for a
million dollars with Nike here or under Armour Deader. So
maybe he drives it up to two two million dollars.
So if you think for one second that playing half
a season he really put half year half a year
at Duke didn't grow his brand exponentially to where he

(04:16):
just signed the biggest deal a a one and done
guy has ever signed. You're either an idiot or you
just are so rife with anger and hatred of any
sort of leadership that you can't see the forest because
you're too close to the trees. Yes, Duke benefited some

(04:38):
financially from Zion Willimson, some, not a lot. Their games
were gonna be on TV, their arena was gonna be packed,
They were gonna get the n c A tournament. Their
radio and TV rights were gonna be the same whether
he came or he didn't count. But Zion Williamson playing
half a year at Duke benefited to the tune of
what forty million dollars at addition to where he moved

(05:01):
up in the draft board. And he's a household name,
not because he's a Williamson, because he's Ian Williamson who
played at Duke. All right, enough of destroying the whole
argument that college sports don't bring value to players. Only
players bring value to college sports. I love j Bill
as he came on the pod last year. You should
download that one. Maybe we'll get him on again this

(05:22):
year just to talk about the freak athlete that is
is uh is Zion. But I actually thinks the whole
Zion thing helps kind of make the argument. Right. He
improved as a player, improved as a person, improved his
draft stock, and his value on Madison Avenue went up
exponentially because he linked into Duke's brand. Duke's brand is

(05:45):
more is more powerful than anything, even even Kentucky's Brandon
college basketball. It helped him and I have the hard
numbers to show you how Now let's get to our
interview of the week. Brian Barroni is the new head
coach at s i U Edwardsville Division One program that
Marty Simmons had as a twenty win program going back
I don't know fifteen twenty years ago. Uh. Bryan's lived

(06:09):
in County. Incredible life, son of Tony and BARRONI the
now late great coach of places like Creighton, like like Creighton,
like Texas, A and M. Just kind of a beloved
figure in the basketball world because he was colorful, in
a great name, and he was hilarious and it's good

(06:30):
about ball. Coach. Brian and I were I wouldn't say rivals.
Contemporaries at some level played against him when he was
at A and M. And then he end up transferring
to Marquette where which was one of the schools that
I I was down to before I chose Oaklhom State
for transferring from Notre Dame. There's a lot of ties
that bind. His father passed away not long ago, about

(06:54):
a month ago, and so this is his first interview
in discussing his life and his life with his dad.
I hope you enjoy it. Be sure to catch live
editions of the Doug got Leap Show week days at
noon eastern three pm Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and
the I Heart Radio app. Let's start at the beginning. Okay,

(07:15):
your dad's a longtime coach. Where were you actually born?
Where was he coaching when you were born? I was
born in Chicago, Illinois. I was there until about six
months old, and then he went down to Bradley and
that's where I kind of that's where I grew up
or first remember growing up obviously, What do you remember
about it? I just remember, um, you know, I just
remember being around the gym a lot. And I also

(07:37):
remember being um around a lot of family cousins, ace
and arncles from my mom's side especially. I would come
visit a lot from Chicago. And that was really probably
my my upbringing for the most part, in those first
seven eight years of my life. Your your brother's older
than you. How much older than you? Uh? Tony six

(07:58):
years older? So he um, he and I are, Yeah,
are close. But he's always been a mentor to me
because of that age difference. But was he always a mentor?
Like my brother was four years older than me, and
I mean there were times when he was kind of
a dick. I mean, like, you know, just and maybe
not it wasn't. Yeah, what he kind of was like

(08:20):
he his favorite story is, um our buddy are his
his buddy's house. They were like, we never had a pool.
I don't know. My dad's a New Yorker and he
was definitely afraid of us having a pool, and so
we had to always go over somebody else's house, which
is to me, is actually counter to what you should
do as a parent. Like my whole thing, we don't

(08:41):
have a pool in this house, and I'm just like
my last summer without a pool. And because if you want,
like you want to watch your be there, watch your
own kids swim. On the other hand, there is the
liability that's assume when somebody else from your house. So
we're at a friend's pool and um he panted, is
me throws my shorts up on the roof and then

(09:03):
like a bunch of other of his friends come over
and they're like inside the house and I'm like swimming
in the pool naked, and I have to go get
my final way to get my shorts. You know, I'm like,
I don't know, ten years old or something, swimming in
the pool. He used to lock me out of the
house because we were My mom my dad was an
assistant longby State and my mom got a job there's
like a secretary, and so we were like latch key

(09:25):
kids and we get home and sometimes just to be
a jerky, tell me to go outside and get something,
and then he locked me out. And then the his
favorite move was, Hey, meet us at the school. We're
gonna play some basketball. We need another guy. And then
no one would show up and I'd be sitting there, yeah,
which would actually help me work on my game. I'd

(09:46):
play imaginary games. So, like I said, and I love
my brother, but he wasn't always a mentor. Was he
always a mentor? He was. He was always a mentor
with things like that because he taught me. He taught
me how to be like that a little bit. So yeah,
I guess I guess I had the politically correct way
of being positive about him is Yeah, he did that
kind of stuff to me too. There was one time

(10:07):
I I did open hand flapped him for uh, you know, uh,
my mom and dad were on the road. I think
you're over in Korea. Actually, was Steth Screenberg doing one
of those trips those foreign tours and my cousin was
watching me and he was trying to be my dad
for lack of a better term, And I was younger,
and I hit him and his coke, you know as
those cokeroom glasses or bottled glasses that he had grown

(10:29):
up and and he got me and uh, he let
me know that he was six years older than So, yeah,
we had some incidents like that as well. Okay, so
from Bradley, where did he go? He went from Bradley
to Creighton. So he's at Creighton for seven eight years.
I think. Okay, do you like now I look back?

(10:51):
They were both in the valley, weren't they? Yeah, he
won't He was in uh you know, from what I remember,
he was one of the first kind of associate head
coaches at Bradley. It was a title that you know,
it wasn't quite as common um. And he went from
Bradley to Creighton and he was there. Dick for Says
was there at Bradley. He went over to Creton and

(11:13):
then Um and then Dick Says left too, I think
the Pacers and then that's staying out. Black came in
and my dad was built the creating at the time
for about seven or I think seven years, seven or
eight years, Dick for says had amazing hair. Yeah, he uh,
he did. It was pictures he did. He did it
was I had a little frize to it, had a

(11:35):
little uh had a little texture. You know, I have
seen it. I've seen a lot of pictures in these
last couple of weeks. And he he had it going on. Yeah,
I don't know. I think I think that was what's
called a permanent right like yeah, yeah, because coach Setton.
Coach Setton had a perm gun. Yeah, they you know,
they had to spend some time in the Kalan and

(11:58):
my dad had a feathery his feathery locks going on too.
There was a lot of there was a lot of style.
There was actually there was a lot of style back
in the into that. You know, there was a there
were some some showmanship back there in those days. Yeah.
My my dad when he was at you Milwaukee had
some of those same like sports coats whatever. Like they
all kind of had a little flamboyance going late. I

(12:19):
was like we're doing in late seventies in early eighties, right,
they all they all wanted those like uh, plaid sports coats.
Or whatever. The problem was that my dad still one
of those sports coats into the nineties and it didn't
didn't translate as much. What do you what do you
remember about Omaha? I remember a lot about Omaha. I
really I really do. I had some you know, really

(12:40):
close friends whose I was there seventh seconds through seventh grade. Um,
and I really remember from a basketball perspective the change. Um.
You know I I talked about. You know, I got
into coaching because of that. Creighton was my good golf shot,
you know that one swing that bad golfers have. They
were like, you know what, I'm gonna try this again
because I just hit the ball right down the middle

(13:01):
of the fairway. And Creighton was that. That team at
Creighton that my dad built was something that I mean,
it was. It was more than basketball. It was one
of the it was. It was a great memory. And
I just remember that Gallagher, the Harstad porter, Moser was
on that Chief todd Eisener, Duan Cole. I mean, it
was Patroll right. So all those guys, we're just the way,

(13:22):
don't bloss over. The names go through it. So Harstad
Harstad used to play it used to hang out at
Oklahoma State in the off season when he's playing professionally overseas. Yeah, yeah,
I forgot about that. Yeah he was. He's down in
Oklahoma City now. He was about of six five six six.
I didn't know how well he could dribble, pass or shoot,
but I want to say he was the all time

(13:44):
leading score up until Corver at Creighton. I'm pretty sure.
I mean, he just meanest, meanest dude, minhas dude I
remember growing up and just got it done. And then
there was Gallagher six ten, guy from Rockford. You know,
he got some you a couple of stints in the
league and ten days and things like that. Was they

(14:04):
were the dynamic duo, you know, the um even though
I never understood. They were both addressed as Batman in
all the promos, so I didn't know the dynamic duel.
Nobody wants to know what he wants to be Robbin,
right like rob Robin's like Robin's like, hey might be gay.
We don't know that there's anything wrong with that, right
He's you know, he's he's a little brother. Nobody wants

(14:24):
to be Robbin, even if there is a Robin. I
think that's that's kind of the thing. I remember. This
is back in the This is back in the late
eighties early nineties when you know, mascul masculinity was the thing.
So both they both had their their their capes on
in the in the in the bat, in the bat
hats Loveland, Colorado. Bob harstads from Loveland, Colorado. Yes, he scored. Uh,

(14:49):
he scored points and grabbed eleven d twenty six rebounds.
He was three time All All Valley and he was
and Valley Player of the Year in and he was
a Tournament Player of the Year ninety one. What a stud.
And he was the beast. He was a beast. He
was playing him and a guy by the name of

(15:11):
Dick Fick was my dad's assistant. They found him and
his name was his name was Le Dick. How do
you suppose last name f I C K. We have
Tony Perroni and Dick Fick on the same step. That's unbelieved.
That's amazing. That's the name. Hall of Personality. Yeah, he

(15:32):
was Dick Fick and and him and they found him
Harst that had a mohawk playing soccer um out in
Colorado and he was playing into some of these camps
on the back and the black Hawk black Top, And
as the story goes, they found him out there kind
of just playing extremely hard and uh and uh, and
they went with him and that's when he ended up.

(15:53):
He had a heck of a careers, all beligal career.
That that is okay. So, um, what was your dad
like as a coach? What do you remember? Because you
know your your second grades through seventh grade and you're
a super high basketball like you guy, and so you're perceptive,
perceptive enough to know what he was like. Like? What

(16:13):
was he like? He was a ball of energy and passionate.
I mean he really was. I mean they had they
had things growing up where I just remember going going
to the practices and I'll tell you right now, if
I was dribbling in the whistle blew, he was making
his if he was making his point as he would

(16:34):
like to say, through the words that he decided to
choose from his dictionary, and I dropped the ball, or
I was in the middle of a shot, I was
diving for that ball before it hit the ground because
I was not letting the drouble. He was an intense,
intense person um, you know, very loving and you know
it was always around me, but like the reality of
it was he he was a ball of fire and

(16:55):
um you know, he was five nine and and can
control a lot of odd grown, grown men and in arena,
so he was very intense. I do remember that in Passionate.
I was doing a I did a coaching clinic today
in Oklahoma, and I told the story that, Um, I
was sitting around and I had an Arizona guy and

(17:15):
a Duke guy with me, and we were talking about
lud Olson, Eddie Sutton and Mischevski and so I just
so so one of them asked me, like, did Eddie
sut never draw a play up? And I was like,
not one time, not one time. And I was like,
what about lud Olsen. He's like not one time? He's
like what about is like nope, not even a little bit,
like never literally never, like the whole And I'm not

(17:38):
I'm not in any way trying to diminish who they were.
Like my dad used to he get the white board
and he draw things and there would be no x's
and ohs. There would just be lines and arrows and stuff.
And I was like, what the fuck, I can't And
whereas nowadays, like guys are like, it's like a work
of art with an a t oh. Now granted sometimes
they still have assistance to it, but it's it's much

(18:00):
more so. I'm so your was your dad a an
X and O drawed up on on a chot board
or was he you know, just coloss here and played
fucking hard and and played together and and show that
you're tougher than the other team guy. I think he
was more of a tougher than the other team guy,
like I do. I do think, Um, you know, he
definitely was about spacing and like preparation prize, so like

(18:22):
you knew what plays you were going to go into
the game with. You know, probably you're you had two
or three late game plays, so you know that and
that's what you're gonna do and you're gonna do it
well and you're going to do it better than the
other team and if not, then you lost. And well,
you know when he uh, I I would say his
biggest strength was getting the most out of somebody on

(18:43):
a day to day There's no doubt about that. Yeah,
did he motherfuckt he did? He did. He was good
at it. It was almost he was graceful. He had
an art he was like a ballerina through his work,
choice of words, time and and at times at I
was I was fortunately the recipient of it. Well I'll

(19:05):
get I'll get to you playing for him, because that's
just a fact. It's a fascinating dynamic that I got
a chance to see twice. Um. But okay, so you're
so I had I had a There's a guy named
Kirk Tagi who was my one of my dad's favorite players.
That's why one of the reasons I wore forty four.

(19:25):
So i'm and he was might He played for my daddy.
You have Milwaukee, and I just wondered if there was
a guy like hit. My dad's favorite player was Dave Webber.
Bruce Webber's brother. Dave was my dad's best player, and
Bruce was my dad's manager and UM at the time,
and then he got the job at My dad helped
him get a job at Western Kentucky UM with UM

(19:49):
with Gene Katie and kind of the rest is history,
if you will. So, but I used to love Kirk
Taggi and my dad. I think Kirk, I believe had
like long blonde hair. He's like good looking dude, And
I don't think he gave a ship about him. I like,
I just remember like sometimes he would, you know, kind
of blow off my dad a little bit. Anyway, my

(20:09):
point is that every when you're a son of a
coach and you're around a team, a lot of times
you have a favorite guy for whatever reason. Who is
your favorite guy? You know? I thought Willie Scott, I
mean as you're sitting there saying that back at Bradley, Uh,
he was just a jet and and he was he
was someone that I just remember when I was I

(20:29):
don't know, six seven, eight years old. I just remember
those teams back at Bradley. Jim Less who jim Less?
He was my guy. Yeah, and he actually played with
Omahall Racers when I wear at Creighton, so I was
able to see him. And then the other guys is
Bob Harstad. I mean that's the guy. I mean, that's
who you because you you saw Hope, You're like, have
you just played as hard as you can, You're going

(20:52):
to be on a team and that and that was Bob.
So I those three guys just kind of stick out, Um,
you know, kind of in in the years that I
that I kind of grew up for sure. Um, Okay,
so why why do you leave? Why do you go
to a and m was just money? Yeah, you know

(21:13):
he's that. He actually said it um in some in
some clinics. Uh you know, he said, you know, never
I think you know, we were going in the morning,
uh to Colorado State. I thought, I mean, not that
he was gonna he was gonna make any decision based
on you know, I don't know. It was twelve eleven
years old and we all thought we were going to
Colorado State. I remember they took him in the hot

(21:34):
air balloon and they blinded dined him and he was
kind of a hot air balloon. Yeah, they took him
in a hot air balloon. I still to this day.
I just I just remember always talking to him about it,
like that was their selling point. And I don't know
if they showed him the campus, I don't, you know.
I just that was that was one of his kind
of recruiting. That was his recruiting visit. It's probably an
NH double A violation now if if we were ever

(21:56):
to do that. But uh so he was going to
Colorado State. To my understanding, we were that was where
we were going in the morning, and then that night
he came in and he said, hey, how about Texas
And he said, we're moving to A and M. And
it was financially, I think they picked it up a
little bit. And you know, he had mentioned that in
in some clinics in the in the past. He's like,
you know, always always take the place that has your passion.

(22:19):
And you know, not that he didn't experience have great
experience in Texas, A and M, but I think it
was a little bit out of his wheelhouse in terms
of location and and you know, a part the country.
Things like that. Well, also he never he got you know,
when we par for year last year there coaching Gee
Rowley White, which I mean it was which honestly, like

(22:40):
I kind of think Gee that probably White could have
been super cool if they just redid it instead of
building a new place, you know, because it's like all
these places, you know, it's like just redo it. I
mean they had poles where people couldn't see, but it
was on campus and if you guys were good. But
but anytime you're building a new arena and you know,
the coach becomes kind of like lame coach. It sucks.

(23:00):
And it didn't have for Tech sam As much as
their facilities now are amazing, like amazing, like ridiculous compared
to the tech SA and M. You went to where
you didn't have I don't think you had a practice, Jim,
did you? No? Oh no, it's g Raleigh came down
and it was it was chipping, it was all that.
It was no, no, you're not even closed the right

(23:22):
and then you know, it broke in front of me.
We were conditioning and I was like, oh, that's not good.
That is the ceiling crashed and it deleted another year.
So I forgot about this year. Two or three were
off conditioning on the football field right outside of Eden
Steed and it broke and I was like, that's that's

(23:43):
that's not good for the Brook and Christmas Present president
for Christmas Present fund right now. So you would have
you would have you would have played in that your
sophomore year. Yeah, I was supposed to play in it.
I believe it was my soft I think yeah, that
was my sophomore years. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that was
going into myself or year. It was supposed to be um,
it was supposed to be done prior to it, and
then it just kept getting delayed, delayed, delayed, and then

(24:07):
and then it broke and then it was a year later. Wow. Um, okay,
So let's let's go back. You moved to College Station.
You're in eighth grade, right, what was your first College
Station Texas experience? Like this is, so I go down there,
and we go down It's me, my mom, and my dad,

(24:30):
and we're there in the summer and doing some things.
But my first thing that really sticks out was we
go down to midnight yell practice, you know, and whenever
it was late August or you know, right before the
right the football season, you know, preseason, exhibition game, whatever
they're doing, and they shut off the lights in the
arena in the in the stadium Kyle Field, and everyone
holds up a lighter and then people walk to each

(24:52):
other and start kissing and it's called mugging. And me
and my mom and dad are sitting in the crowd
and all these people are making out around us, and
I'm sitting there going, you know, with my mom and dad.
I'm like, what the heck is going on? It was.
It was a heck of an experience. It's pretty darn funny,
but it was. It opened my eyes to the tradition
of Texas A and M football, for sure. I remember

(25:13):
that being a little unique, awkward moment with my parents.
What was it like to play high school basketball? Your
dad is a college coach down the street. It was awesome,
It really was. My first year, UM was a little
difficult because um I was I was bumped up to
varsity as a freshman and I started every game until

(25:34):
I tore my knee my senior year. But that first
year was a little bit you're the coach's son, and
um I was introverted. Um I have you know, you know,
without getting into all of it, but there's a you know,
one of my friends really who since passed away. It
brought me into his room. We're like thirteen years old
and John Madden football and he's like Brian. I mean,

(25:55):
it's weird. It was like a mature behind his years
and we weren't the most mature event by any means,
and just said, hey man, just you're good enough to play,
You're good enough to start. You gotta you gotta you
gotta be on that team. That's gotta be your goal.
And I mean it was kind of like that direct
And if you knew what I'm talking about, you've not
got a odd coming from him, and so he gave
me a good supporter of friends and and kind of

(26:17):
believes in me. And then but you know, you have
to step up, you know. I think anytime you're a
local kid, even in college of basketball right now, if
you can control the intangibles, you know, your effort basically,
if you can be an effort kid, you can just
you know, you can handle being being locally the coach
his son or the local kid on the college team.

(26:37):
It's it's interesting about being the local kid and being
a local kid in the high school. So my high
school experience, I grew up in an Orange and in
the El Medina district, and my brother went to Almadina
High School. And my brother is a little smaller than me.
He's more of a he's more of a two guard
or whatever. And he could have gone low D one

(26:58):
and instead he wanted to walk on in u c
l A. He ended up actually getting beat out um
by um what's his name, lou? Shoot, he's the coach
that I think Bishop O'Dowd um lou Uh. He went
and he started. He kid actually walked down as a
freshman U c l A. Then transferred started at Clemson

(27:19):
for three years like that's he got beat out by
a good player. So he was just like a student
and then he went and decided he wanted to play.
And my brother played for a year and a half
a Drake. But but my point was because my brother's
high school experience was just okay. Um, my dad was
like I stayed back a year in eighth grade because
I was I was a late bloomer. And then I

(27:42):
was going to find like the best high school program
to go to. And I didn't want to go to
motter Day because monter Day is like you don't play
varsity until maybe your junior year. Jeremy Knight's son, Clay,
was a friend of mine. He's not a point guard,
but like Clay was gonna play. I mean, that's just
he's gonna play. And I means his one son who

(28:02):
could really really play, could really shoot. I just I don't.
I just wasn't into the modern day thing I want
to play, and I kind of I'm a more of
a public school kid. So I went to Tustin High School,
which is I mean, it's the town directly south and
they had won the state championship and had a good
coach named Tom McCluskey, who had played at Penn State
for Dick Harter, and I just the one and this

(28:22):
is like, I'm trying to figure this out from my
own kid, and you experienced. This is the only thing
that sucked about my high school experiences because I didn't
outside of basketball, and even in basketball, like no one
knew me until I showed up for summer basketball with
the JV and the varsity before my freshman year. Like

(28:43):
because of that, I didn't have like I wasn't. I
didn't have not just a friend group, but there wasn't
people are like, oh, he's awesome, he's good at basketball,
or he's I just I didn't have any sort of
I had. I had no sweat equity with anybody. And
when I went to Oklahoma State, I also felt kind
of the Saint More Notre Dame. Notre Dame, it's a

(29:04):
national school. It's a little different. But when I went
to Oklahoma State, like I always felt like had I
gone to high school in Oklahoma, people would have known
me better and know like, well, obviously I could shoot
in high school, otherwise I wouldn't have been as highly recruited.
It's more of a mental right. You want, you want
people to believe in you, not because they believe in you,
but believing you because they've actually seen you do it.

(29:25):
So I actually think there is like there's we're creating
this culture of guys of high school kids that will
go to whatever high school. And I did it myself,
but I did it you know one town over of
college kids that will transfer whenever pros it, will do whatever.
And I, having experienced bouncing around a little bit, I
do think I missed out on the sweat equity portion

(29:45):
of it, and I'm not sure my experience would have
been better. In addition to there is something cool, and
we both went to the same high school for four years,
you and I. There is something cool about going to
the same high school and trying to win a state
championship with your guys instead of recruiting off the top
and having guys transfer in. So that's I just wondered

(30:06):
if you experienced that because even though you were a
coach's son, he came in from Omaha right before a
year before high school, and then I didn't know if
you had the sweat equity with everybody in high school.
Well in high school by the time I got to
high school, I was solid in eighth grade and it
was you know, it's college station is one team, one school,
you kind of you know, everyone goes from A to B.

(30:28):
There wasn't multiple school but there are now actually there.
But when I got there in eighth grade, they tried
making me play football. I was about five nine in
day one. I was coming from a Catholic school and
over my first public school. I don't know, I'm walking
around the hallways with like some freedom. And you know,
I was in the St. Pious attend St. Leo, and
I'm sitting in one classroom, you know, all day. And

(30:50):
uh So I get there at the athletics period at
the end of the day and they in, uh in
eighth grade and said everyone, they asked that that everyone
not playing football stand up. And it was me and
I mean honestly, out of a hundred and fifty something
kids or whatever, it was me and probably four or
five play eight kids play eight or ninth piss one
of which is one of my best friends who was
significantly shorter than me. And uh, coach said, well, why

(31:12):
aren't you playing And I said, uh, I'm playing basketball.
He said, no, you know, you're playing football. Sit out.
So I sat down and I was like, oh, this
is gonna be a problem. So I went home that
day and I I said, they're making me play football
to my mom and dad, and my mom was kind
to look at Mike, you don't have to play football.
And my dad's like, well, do you have some cleats? Um,

(31:32):
get get ready, And I was just kind like, I
don't know. I want to want to play football. And
so about three or four days, I was a football
and what I had to do was my coach actually,
but he kind of figured out who I was and
he said, all right, we're gonna play open gym after school.
If you're good enough to play basketball, we won't make
you play football. And that's how I that's how I

(31:54):
didn't have to play football, because I went out there
talking about a game of pressure. And I went out
there and I was pretty good and they grade and uh,
coach walked out and said, okay, you can play basketball.
And so that was a little bit of my first experience.
And then after I got the you know, once I
got to high school, I had that sweat I could
be equity and then a little bit and um, a
little bit in college. To be honest with you too,

(32:16):
I mean people, I was a little bit more of
a shooter and a scorer in the high school. And
when I when I went to Texas and m I
lost my mind. I came off a tour and town
at l and I didn't make it three my first year.
And but I did have that which you didn't have,
what you're saying. I had that sweat equity where people
like man, come on, shoot it we've seen because they

(32:36):
knew you could shoot, and your dad knew you could shoot.
I just didn't know I could shoot, which is the problem.
Did you have any choice or any desire to look
elsewhere to go to college? I did you know? I
was looking at East Carolina UM. That was one of
the main ones. And then I remember specifically them recruiting

(33:00):
and uh it was coach Dooley as a matter of fact,
And they were the only school that recruited me that
didn't say, if you don't go play for your dad,
we'd like to talk to you. And UM. The one
other school came in was NABE. Doug Woker came in
and do home visit and I was fired up. And

(33:21):
then by the end of it. I was like, yeah,
I still got to go to the Navy and uh yeah,
and I was like, yeah, no thanks, But those are
the two schools that actively recruited me that didn't give
me as that if you don't go with your dad,
And you know, I mean I think I probably I
probably knew it all along. Um, but yeah, that's kind
of how it all played out. And then I committed

(33:42):
to him, and then the rest was kind of history.
And as you said, you gotta hurt your senior year, Um,
your sophomore year was your your dad's last year, I
believe correct. Yet we were both sophomores at the time.
And what what was that experience like to to like,
I can't imagine, you know, when you play in college

(34:02):
and I think people understand this, but maybe they don't.
You get you're so wrapped up in yourself, right, You're
so in your own feelings about your own game, and
then you want your team to win. So you have
these two things. Then fact you're in like your dad's
under a tremendous amount of pressure to win. I can't

(34:25):
like I struggled enough with worrying about myself and worrying
about my team, and you know, Mike, we were just
I was so competitive and I'm you're you're built the
same way too. How did you process all those things
going on at once? You know, I don't know if
I processed it. You know you are looking back on
and I probably didn't handle it great or I internalized everything.

(34:46):
Um And I was protected by my dad. I mean
he he did a great job every day. This is
what we do in practice. We were prepared, and we
had some guys that I, you know, I think could
have played harder. I think some guys didn't achieve what
they know with they getting the best out of themselves.
So that my struggle was a little bit more within
the team, not so much the pressure of the winds

(35:07):
and losses. It was you know, listen, guys, I'm fighting
for my family right now. I was very aware of
that and and they weren't. And that was that was
where I struggled with it, and that that was tough.
That was well, I guess maybe maybe here's a better
way of articulating it, like, look, yeah, I think you
and I are probably built the same. Like if guys

(35:27):
aren't giving the right amount of effort near the point guard,
you know, you have to find there are guys in
which you're gonna jump, but when you're the coach's son
and and you're emotional about the possibility of your dad
losing his job, like I just how did you did you?
Did you go at guys? Were you the north the
leader you wanted? Yeah? Yeah, I I remember specifically we
got beat by Nebraska. I mean you probably look it

(35:49):
up the day in time or whatever. And Tyron Louprow,
I mean, I mean he kicked my ask too, don't
worry about it. He got me, but it took a
couple of charges early, and we just it was one
of there was two games that I was really disappointed
and being a teammate Um and specifically remember I wasn't
you know, I wasn't the best player, but my effort

(36:09):
was always there. It was at Oklahoma State, which I
had a career high eight eight turnovers, so thank you
very much. And then the other one was Nebraska at home.
And after that Nebraska game at home, I remember Um
stepping up and and really being very emotional and getting
into guys and their response was, you know, someone could

(36:32):
have very easily with my size and demeanor and strength,
could have could have put me in my place, and
no one did. And that was obviously a problem because
we knew, you know, what I was saying was it
was probably more true than not. And uh, and that
was tough. That was That was one game where I
really really remember after after the game going like, we

(36:52):
can't do this, this this ain't right. And I handled
it in a yelling kind of way. Yeah, you guys
lost fifty eight at home. You did win your last game,
in the last game in Gee Raleigh, you won against Baylor. Yeah,
one of the best moments of my basketball life. I
don't think to win, but because my mom, my dad

(37:14):
and I, after knowing that we were done and that
was the last game I was gonna, you know, be
at home against with him, we walked up that tunnel together. Um,
I can close by. Someone just referenced it at the
funeral um and in an email to me as a
matter of fact, and I said that that was that
they remember seeing my mom, dad and I walked up

(37:34):
that tunnel for the last time in the rally white,
which is still gets you a little emotional at that time,
but we want it was a big win win. Here's
a big win. I told this story on Twitter about
your dad. So here's here's the story. So we're at
the We're at the Herford House and and like you know,
like still at Oklahom. There's not a lot of nice
restaurants and I don't leave the Herford House. Is there anymore?

(37:55):
By the way, And um, so you know we have
you know, big thing is I hate coat and tie.
And we're going to Hertford House and we had we
finished and we won the South that year, and we
actually lost the first game we played to Texas by
the way, who sucked um, but they played super smart
for the first time and they slowed us down and

(38:16):
it was crazy. Um. But I remember we're at We're
at the dinner table and I'm sitting with Coach Sutton
and Patsy Sutton and in walks your dad with his
like staff and you know, your dad kind of like
my dad, like he had that strut. He had a
really good strut, you know, like you might just lost
his job. But yeah, I mean like he you know,

(38:38):
So he walks in and he comes over and he
shakes coach his hand, Coach, how are you doing, Tony?
Where's your deed? He's like those fucking guys McDonald's. They
gotta be fired, Eddie, spend another penny on them. Amazing,
we're dying die. He just had a great he just

(38:58):
had a great Uh get a great way And here's
the here's one other one. So we play you guys
at g Rolly White. I can remember it. We were
no no, we and we had a bunch of smart
asses on our team. And the lead smart ass was
actually not me, was Brett Robish, whose dad Dave of
course your dad news played in the NBA. And Brett

(39:20):
is just he's just he's just an asshole. He's the
good kind of asshole, but he's he's the best. So
we're in the locker room and he's like, twenty dollars
to anybody who who anyone who barks at at that
damn dog? So what you what you didn't know about
it was his Brett's wife actually transferred to Oaklahoma State
from Texas A and M. So and and this is

(39:43):
this is the this is the story that Shanna tells
is that she the first time he had the year
before first time he was going to play on the
road at Texas A and M. She's like, where are you?
Who you guys plays like Texas A and M and she,
honest to god, she said that she's like, we had
a basketball team. I had no idea. She's like, I
had no idea anyway, So he put down twenty dollars,

(40:08):
which in college is a lot of money to anybody
would bark at REBELI um. And so if you go back,
like we were all trying to, we're like, the ball
went out of bounds a couple of times, and guys
like and I actually growled at the dog and the
dog barked at me. I took all the money, So
I think, I don't know if you took a charge

(40:28):
on him or if he just fouled you super hard.
And we were up like twenty, and your dad got
and your dad got piste piste, and he's like that
fucking that's ballshot, that's bullshot, that's sucking. Throw him out,
he fucking and he goes and Brett robis just calm days, like, hey, Tony,
calmed down, don't have a heart attack or something. We're

(40:51):
kicking your ass anyway, and your dad lost his mind.
He's just you know, I mean, it was, it was,
it was, it was. It was great. So Okay, so
he loses his job. Then how did you decide? Marquette?
You know, it's it's funny because I was going I
had a little I had a little anger. We can

(41:12):
go anger, I can be honest about it. So I was,
I got a waiver to transfer within the conference and
not lose a year, so I could transfer anywhere city
here and still have the two years instead of doing
like Luke axtell a lukew. He kind of comes into play.
So what happened was, I was I was narrowed down
to coach Sampson at Oklahoma and Tom Penders coach Penders

(41:36):
at Texas and um I actually I played good at
both of those teams, so I had them correct into
considering me, and uh, coach Sampson was. They ended up
going with a seventh book guy. I want to say
his name was a Via, but I went up Victor,
Victor dr Avila. He was supposed to be like the
next Nahara, Yes exactly, That's exactly what he was saying

(41:59):
to me. And he don't know if he yeah, I
mean he was fun or something. I don't think he
ever fanned out. Okay, So I visited there because I
was friends with m I had a guy named Aaron
Jack on my team was from tuls friends with rains
Ey Stone, another guy named Sai Basket. So we're up there.
Um had a good weekend. I visited and then I
I was gonna visit Texas and I don't know if

(42:20):
you remember during that time Tom Tenders got fired and
it was kind of like he was released some I
think Luca Axtell's great. There was something like that. I
can't remember the whole deal and the visit. The weekend
I was supposed to visit was the weekend that all broke.
So then I was UM. The other guy was Mike
Dean at Marquette, and he had known my dad. We've

(42:42):
played Sienna at you know I almost I know, well
we that's why our past. You know, if you had
gone there, I would not have because you would have
been you know, there wouldn't have been a plot for
me before. So UM, I had Mike Bargain, all these guys,
they all they all knew you and all that kind
of stuff. So that's what ended up happening. So I

(43:04):
was kind of waivering on or waiting on Oklahoma and Texas.
They both really weren't working out and then Mike phone
me up and said he did a home visit. The
Final four was in San Antonio that that year, so
I got I, you know, had a lot of interests.
Just coaches were you know, kind of talking and I
was right around that area and I want to tour
and visited and he actually sent me down in the
locker room and said, Brian, if you commit to me
now if your dad gets another job, I don't care

(43:26):
if you know, August, I'm gonna you can go, no
no hard feelings. You go play for him if he
wants to. Because my dad was in the mix for
like Loyola and a couple of other jobs. And I
was like, you know what this reminds me Craighton, I
want to go to a basketball school. It was I
had a lot of family in Chicago, and Mike gave
me that opportunity in case my dad was going to
get another job and I and I pulled the trigger him.

(43:48):
That's how that's how that all went out. Mike Dean's
favorite word is what. Oh, here's there's a compound word
that he was that the word it starts with the
sea and ends with the sucker. Correct. So so the year.
So then the year you're sitting out here, you're sitting

(44:10):
out we play Marquette in Hawaii and it's like the opening, right,
and so um, we play Marquette in Hawaii and I'll
never forget this. So he comes out and he was
like the kind of guy Dino is is, I chose
Oklahoma State. He wrote me this like four page. I
still have it, like love letter of how bad he

(44:32):
wanted me to come play for him and how you
know he needs you know, tough son bitches and I'm
a tough son of a bitch or whatever and and um,
and so I was like devastated when I had to
call him and tell him. And part of it you
talked about being mad, like, look, I got in trouble
with my fault Notre Dame, but I still want to
kick Notre Dame's asked. One of the reason I want
to go to Marquette was they played Notre Dame every year, right,

(44:53):
So I just I wanted to go to college town.
I want to play with a little bitter athletes. I
might could say he want play fast, but he played slow,
and I just I couldn't do it. I don't know,
I just I couldn't do the the Upper Midwest again.
I just I needed something different. So I actually worked
camp for him after I had already signed to go

(45:14):
to Oklahoma State, worked his camp and had turned him down.
And his camp, as you know, was awesome because he
had a keg in the locker room. He had to
float the keg by I think Wednesday, and then on
Thursday he like, you'd go to the bar. There's a
bar on campus at Marquette. Everybody come in and eat,
and then he'd leave his leave his tab open and
then he'd leave and everybody could get plowed. Whatever it was,

(45:37):
just to use the anyway. So we're in Honolulu. We
come on the court with warming up and Coach Sutton
comes out in a suit and tie in Hawaii, and
so Dino goes up do he goes eddie a sudden,
how are you doing? Only fucking guy in America? Were
soon Ti in Hawaii? You look great and and like

(45:59):
like you know, Coach sent is like the class he
is like, what is the what is going on with
that guy? So um, end of half we come down
and you know we would run like the same we
we we ran like we called it Hoosier or I
you where you run a guy off a triple screen

(46:19):
and then the last screener comes back off the double
stagger and you either get that shot or the last
screener steps in and get a slip. And we got
a wide open shot. And I'm sure they had scouted it,
and you know, I think he was what's what was
Bart's last name? Uh, point guard Bart? Yeah? Yeah, And
all of a sudden and you're like, we're in We're

(46:40):
in Hawaii u H Arena, which is like a thirteen
thousand see place, right, but it's empty because it's Marquette
Okloma State, and you can hear him go bark dude,
cut sucker, and he goes chasing him into the locker room.
So our locker rooms are next to each other. And
keep in mind that because I had worked camp and
I knew all of the guy, I actually did the

(47:01):
personnel skyder report for the game, like I stood up
for the team. I had the manager work with me.
We did the right out. I handed up like I
was like an assistant coach for it. So so I
uh so, meanwhile, their locker rooms next to ours, and
he's m F and UM and C S and um
and everything, and coach Sutton comes in and he's he's

(47:21):
looking at me shaking and says, he's like, you want
to play for him? He's like, you couldn't play for him?
I was like, yeah, I could. I could play for him.
And like that was our halftime discussion was could Gottlieb
have played for Mike Dean? Right? It was? It was?
It was amazing. Um, so what was that experience like
of I've always interested the second time around, now you're

(47:43):
playing at Marquette, what was your experience like there? You know,
it was great? I mean it really was, you know,
because Mike was, um, you know, you called him Mike
on my recruiting visit, I was coached Dean coach Dean
coach Dean and he call me fucking Mike, call me Mike?
Who the fund is? Did Mike call me? Mike? What
do I call you? Do I call you player? And
I'm like no, and he goes, they don't call me,

(48:04):
don't call me coach? You know. So then from that
point I was like, Okay, between the lines, it was
game on. I mean, anything goes. He got India, he
coached you, and then you walk off the lines and
and to me, I just always thought he was just Mike.
He was Mike and um. So the experience was was
a nice one. It was it was it was well

(48:25):
needed from my from my experience in Texas A and
m um, because it was I needed I needed that
Midwest I can't you know, That's what I grew up.
So it was kind of almost the opposite of what
you were just saying. I grew up in that craton
and that Jesuit atmosphere and um, you know the school
like that, uh and just in the city and things
like that. So it was a great experience. And then

(48:46):
you know, we had we had some talent. We had
a kid that ended up having to leave the team,
our best player, Jared Levette, like halfway through the year.
So then our our wins and losses where I think
we ended up being fifteen fifteen and they fired him
and and I'm like, some of a time, this is
now I'm two coaches and two you know, three coaches
and three years I'll have. I'm I'm sitting there and
the A D comes in Bill Cords and tells us

(49:08):
and I'm like, well, who we canna hire? And he
looks at me like who are you like? Who is
this red shirt little guy? Walk on? Are you even
any good? And I was kind of like, Okay, I'll
sit here and be quiet now and uh. And then
that's when a few months later, a few weeks later
or whatever, coach Ring got hired. So it was a whirlwind.
Those nine eleven months to eleven months were crazy. What

(49:30):
what was Crean like? And I know you worked for
him later, but but as a as a player, what
was it like? It was intense? I mean he brought it.
He brought it every day, and he set the tone
in the way that we were gonna we were going
to practice. Um. It was just different. It wasn't like

(49:51):
it was so the demand and the intensity and at
the pace of which you did it was different. You know,
my and my dad both could coach. They both get
you know, they were intense, but the the intensity and
the pace that first year was really something that that
we all were like, Okay, this is different and uh,

(50:14):
and we he brought it every single day and he
really did. I mean he was the same level of
intensity every day and and and I do think our
team was well coached to prior and during UM, which
was nice for that transition because we you know, he
upgraded some talent obviously, brought in Wade and Merit and
Deaner and Novak, and you know that was better. You

(50:35):
got rid of me and they added Diner and that's
a good come up right there. But it was intense.
It was intense and and and and he got better.
I mean there was different work level and workload for sure.
Um did did Wade set out that he was a Protafouria,
wasn't he? Yeah? So he sat out my what was

(50:56):
my fifth year? And uh in his freshman year he
sat out. So you know, we had a very good
We had me, DJ Stephens, Darren Horne and d Wade
were four of the second stringers. So our first our
practices were pretty good. And coach was the best thing
about Coach was he treated Wade like he was he

(51:16):
was playing the next day and he didn't let him
take a day off. He's all of us. But you know,
even though Ray Wade was sitting out, I've I've I
find Tom Crane to be an amazing guy, to be
a really really good human being that I had no
no idea until I've gotten to know him. Some how
thoughtful and and and and earnest he he can he

(51:36):
can be. Um, did this is you? And you you?
Obviously it's hard now to say it and it not
sound honest. But did you know that Dwyane Wade would
be a Hall of Fame player when you played with
him on the second team? No? I no, No, I
knew by the end. Um. I remember coach one time
turning snap into me. He's like, you better tell your
brother and dad to get into practice. We got a

(51:58):
pro on our hands because they were both with the
Grizzlies at the time. And that was towards the end
of this season. I had no idea he was going
to be as good as he was. I did by
the end, you knew he was a pro. Um, But
I didn't. I had no idea who was gonna be
what he was. I would hung out with him more.
Come on, do you okay? So you get you get done?
You get done? And didn't you go like Garden City

(52:20):
is an assistant At first? My first year was Okalla,
Florida UM down in Central Florida Community College. Then I
went to Garden City Community College out in Kansas. Yeah,
who was it? Who is it? Ocalla o'calla was Jane
Smithson who was at Wichita State, my dad and Dick Persay,
squear Bradley and then Earl Diddle was at Garden City,
who was at Indiana State coach Larry bird Um. So

(52:43):
I had some mentors. I was really I was. I
was fortunate. I didn't realize I had the mentors at
the time, but I really did. So was was that was?
That was the plan? Hey, let's go work for a
couple of of old heads and and then eventually get
to be in a then get a job or was it?
Well you just I mean again, I'm I'm just interested

(53:04):
in how you decided to go to Californida, Garden City, Kansas.
My my options were Bruce Pearl had just gotten hired
at u W Milwaukee. I was in Milwaukee, and I
was finishing my masters because I had read shirted and
so my fifth year of playing, all I had to
do was finish my thesis. So I got my masters
that last year, and Bruce Pearl had offered me to

(53:27):
be a video guy. And back then the video I mean,
it was like I want to say, it was fifts.
I was going to maybe be able to live in
the dorm, and I was gonna like bartend or something.
I mean that that's what the discussion was. And that
was going to be comfortable for me though, because I
mean I was sitting there right down the street and Marquette.
I mean, I was probably gonna still just be like,
you know, a player. And my my dad said, if

(53:48):
you really want to get into coaching, you need to
look into junior college. And two guys offered me jobs.
Gene Smithson through Tim Buckley had an assistant who worked
for Gene Smithson, and Buckley was at Ball State at
the time who coached me at Marquette. And then another guy,
Chris James, who I worked with at Illinois State and
now was obviously in Mexico State. He was at Howard
down in Big Spring, Texas. And I visited both of

(54:10):
those schools to decide, and they both offered me a position,
and I ultimately decided to go to Central Florida because um,
I was going to be the only assistant there and
at at Howard, I was going to be like the
second assistant. UM And then my dad told me, he said,
I you really want to get into coaching, and you
learned the other side of it you need to learn.
Junior college. You needed because I was always a head
coach's son, you know, I was always I mean all

(54:34):
my memory was great in Texas and m and you
know he was the Grizzlies. I hadn't seen that that
other tier of basketball, and he do it. Okay. The
one thing about Smithson that that you still take with
you to this day. Uh, you don't want to think.
He was very routine, very routine. He had. It was
like a menu. Is so if you if you printed

(54:54):
your practice plan, it was quite literally a menu and
he would check like you would have shooting drills and
he would you it would say pick two. I mean
it's literally what it was. And uh so his organization
to routine, I've never I you know, I haven't done
it to that detail, but it's said a lot in
the routine. Um and then Earl Diddle. I still take

(55:15):
the Earl Diddle. It protect the house and uh he
would you build a house, you know, like just around
the lane essentially, and uh it was just simple, just
get your heels on the house. And it was just
you know, instead of force and baseline force and side
and all that kind of stuff. I just remember the
simplicity that he he taught that defense with Those are
two things that just stood out right away. And then

(55:37):
did war will get the job? Then? Were you into
Green Bay after that? Right? Oh? With with Porter? With Porter,
I forgot Porter. So I got the head coaching job
at Garden City because the earl decided to go to
the women's side. And that was the year Marquette went
to the Final four. So I was kind of somehow
they thought I was, you know, pretty hot stuff. And

(55:59):
Garden City m vic Trilli was an assistant at Texas
at the time when you and I played, and he
was in He was associate a d at Garden City
with Dennis Perryman, who was Brandy Perriman's father at Garden City.
So they gave me the head coaching job and I
had it for about three days and then Porter had
got in Illinois State and decided to offer me a job,
and I decided to go to Illinois State. Instead of

(56:21):
saying it's at a Garden City. Give me something about Porter?
What what about Porter? Uh? Makes him special? His energy
and enthusiasm, it's contagious. I'm not think we can see
on TV and his I mean it is I means energy, enthusiasm.
It's just every day he's walking in on his with
a with a quite literally a bounce in his stuff.

(56:42):
Isn't it crazy? Though, Like a guy like that, you
look at his career records, You're like, well, he had
that one year where he went to the Final four.
But the truth is that that I've seen his teams
play at several different places. You know, when he said Arkansas,
Little Rock, he's a hell of a coach. But it's
like you, it's it's hard to relate to people, like
you said, different levels of basketball, the different things you inherit,

(57:02):
the luck you have to have. Like it's he's not
any better a coach because they went to the final four.
He's just finally recognized as being a tremendous coach because
they went to the final four. That's that's a Is
that a fair perspective? Yeah, I mean we were calling
a five eight rule two a little bit where you
could sign five guys in one year, eight and two
years otherwise you lost the scholarship. So when we want

(57:23):
to Illinois State, there was a certain amount of roster
kids that we were they were probably better for the
other staff a nice way to say it. So, but
you had to keep him in a year like give
me that, give me the best, give me the best
story you can share. You don't have today names at
where Juco or Illinois State Oh um best story, best story?

(57:48):
Uh man man I got well, I mean at an
Ocala Juco, I had to break out a fight between
another guy that was working in the athletic department and um,
my roommate who I was living with, which was a student.
I walked in and they were throwing salt shakers at
each other, and then by the time I got up

(58:10):
closer to them, they were throwing fists at each other.
And there was like a he was like a nineteen
year old um uh. He was folded on computers and
electronics and then a former former athletic coach and getting
into it. And that was my That was my waking up.
And I had a torn an c L because I
tore my a c L the first in the day
on the job at o'calla. So that was what I

(58:31):
was doing my first probably a month and a half
in Okalla. When'd you meet your wife? I met her
at Marquette. She was a trainer at Marquette with the
women's volleyball and basketball team. And UM, so when I
met her, probably the second year I was at Market
and we started dating, UM, I knew that I knew

(58:52):
any any stead at any any any status of mine
was going to go down the drain quickly once I
was no longer a basketball player. And I was smart
enough to find a gold a gold piece of goals
in her. Yeah, and I'm sure I'm sure she was
really impressed by, Hey, listen, I can make bucks at
u w M. Or I go to Ocala, Florida. I

(59:13):
got big, I got big plans, big, big, big place
she go? Did she go with you? And the city
actually went to She's a physical therapist, So she went
and did her residency in Sacramento the year I was
in Okalla. So the first year kind of we were
doing our own thing and making nothing. And then the
second year in Garden City, UM, she visited a lot,

(59:34):
and then I went to Illinois State, so I kind
of fortunately I I bridged that gap of Garden City
for a nine month period before I got closer to
Illinois State while she finished at Marquette, so we were
only about four hours away. UM and then did you
guys get fired it at Ellinois State and that's why
you went to Crean Bay. Uh No, I went to
Marquette then, so I went to market. So I got

(59:55):
fired and then we I went to Marquette as a
video coordinator Crane. Uh you know, I created in a
position for me. I didn't know anything about video and
uh he he allowed me to learn it and uh
and he gave me that gave me some time to
learn it. And I spent a lot of time in
the office doing it, and and I saw I was
there for a year and then we went down to
uh down down to Indiana. So I was there. Yeah,

(01:00:17):
and then that's when we went to Indiana. What was that? Like,
you guys took over it in the end. It was
a mess. Like people forget how big a mess it was.
It was, I mean coach, you know the coach coach
with Tim Buckley, Benny seltzer Um and we ended up
having Roshan McLoud ended up coming on board, Jake Grossman,
and we had we had a great staff um that

(01:00:38):
that came with us and really really kind of navigated
We didn't have any scholarship players, you know, that was
part of the potted plant incident where Eli Holman was
throwing the plant that was on the bottom line of
the ESPN all day that Um, there was an incident
in now you basketball office and uh and you. I

(01:00:59):
ended up going tryansfer into Detroit and I had to
deal with him for another two years playing him on
the court. And he was a good player. And we
actually halfway joked about it in the next few years.
But yeah, I mean coaches energy and and just kind
of relentlessness to get that thing going to where they did.
I think they were number one in the country and
within four or five years. And and we didn't have

(01:01:21):
a whole lot to work with. We we we didn't
have a whole lot to work with it all. Um,
what was Brian Whorl like to work with? Yeah? That
was that was unique. I great, he was great to
work with. But it was unique because we were such
good friends, right, I mean, like your former teammates together
at Marquette. Brian was a tremendous player at Marquette. Yes,

(01:01:43):
very good. Every pass I had was drawn in designed
to throw to him, and then I was going on
the other end to play defense. Sometimes I gart his
guys along with my own. But we won't tell him that.
But the he was great, you know he what he
did was he he really he didn't hide the fact
that this was he was young, he was getting he

(01:02:03):
got a job, um, and was trying to learn it.
And he put people in place that he had trusted
and and we just had a lot of fun. We
had a lot of fun just trying to find players.
And I mean it was like putting a team together
that if we were sitting there in the dorm saying
like pick your top five, I mean that's kind of
what I mean it was. It was a great experience,

(01:02:23):
it really was. And we when we had some success,
it was pretty cool. Um, you left there to go,
Uh didn't you go to Iowa to jr College? I
went to a junior college in Kansas, Junior college in Kansas,
UM from Green Bay. Yeah, I was there for I
ended up living in Kansas for two years. I stayed

(01:02:43):
in Witshaw, Kansas for two years. Yeah. What happened I
had gotten after about Um, I don't know when it was.
It was. I was the head coach for a little
bit and then had gotten uh pulled over and accused
of a d U I. And fortunately, um, you know

(01:03:04):
you you you move forward on on mistakes that were
made and you make four and uh, you know without
getting into all the details that you know, it's not
something that um you know the situation I I really
grew from and uh you know, fortunately it wasn't. Um,
it wasn't asked for trade necessarily, but still uh you

(01:03:27):
know for me, uh, for publicly it wasn't. It wasn't.
So it's rights. It sucks. So I guess here's here's
the question. Harder to call your wife or you're dead? Um,
probably my wife because then it was just probably my wife. Yeah,

(01:03:50):
that conversation and uh, and you have support. You have
support through um, you know, trying to figure out everything
and and and uh and really you know the support
of knowing, Okay, we got you and let's figure out
what the next step is and what happened and things
like that. How do you get how do you so
what was the process of getting back to where you

(01:04:12):
now are? The head coach at s i U Edwards Hill,
like from from that point because you're you're going through
all these things and your dad is sick, get sick,
right like this is this is a this is a lot.
This is a lot. How do you go from the
how do you go from there to here? Support? First

(01:04:34):
of all, um, you know and you and I have
have had conversations and um, some people such as you
obviously family, UM, and then simply putting your head down
and and saying, Okay, this is what ultimately matters. And
I got to figure it out. And it's our mentality
right now. It's our mentality right now. Where it's I

(01:04:58):
call it or find a way and thing you do,
You've got to find a way to just figure it out.
It's the best way to say it. And there's no
rocket science to it. But I put my head down,
I I UM, I re established trying to who I
wanted to be defined as. Uh. You didn't get worried
about trying to explain yourself, trying to tell your side

(01:05:19):
of the story and just simply being who you are
and and um, you know you're defined sometimes in this
in this business as uh as a coach, as a player,
and what what you want to be defined of is
more a little bit of who you are. And so
when I didn't have a locker room for the first time,
quite frankly in my entire life. I didn't necessarily know

(01:05:42):
how to define myself. And um, ultimately, you just you
are who you are and and you just started I
started thinking, I started being a parent in a way
that I looked at it in such a great way.
And I started writing, I started talking, and uh, and

(01:06:03):
Coach Greene hired me on at Indiana. Um, you know,
people who really wanted to know the truth on a
new me understood and gave me an opportunity. And and
that's what I did. I had a lot of people
give me an opportunity because they took the time to
understand what what had gone on and who I am
as a person. Um, your your your dad is sick,

(01:06:30):
and you get the job at average though you versus
the interim and then you get that you actually named
the head coach. Yeah, what was that like? It was?
It was a crazy two days, um, because you saw
where it was trending on on how things were going on,

(01:06:51):
and UM with him and with you with everything to
be honest with you, with me and him, and um,
he was he was talking less, he was moving last,
he wasn't walking anymore. He's living in a nursing home. Um.
You know, we didn't know what the next step for
me was going to be because you know the way

(01:07:11):
that the team was and and you know just numbers alone.
I mean, we're all aware of this business. So when
you go from walking into a meeting going in thinking, Okay,
I'm gonna ask to find my next job elsewhere, and
I'm also going to have to figure out how I'm
gonna be able to spend time while doing that with
with someone that I'm close to losing. Two Then within
about twenty four hour period um being named head coach

(01:07:36):
and driving to a couple of recruits and then one
of which was in Chicago, and I go over three
days or two days later and walking in with with
a shirt that one of our administrators said, hey, give
this to your dad right before I left, and uh,
I drive up there and I give it to him
and his smile and his his hug and we have
an unbelievable picture. It was I've experienced moments of power

(01:07:58):
these last um these last few months, and that was
one of the most powerful moments of my life where
I walked in and saw I saw my dad realize
that you know you did it, you you you worked,
you earned it, you overcame and uh, and there's nothing
like that, man, there's nothing like seeing that in your
father's eyes. Who. I know a lot of people reached

(01:08:21):
out to you, and it's your your dad was a
beloved figure. Who's the person who like blew you away
with something they said after he passed? Man, you know, Uh,
there's a guy named Reggie Morris. Um, you know Porter
Moser might here here. The most powerful moment was I
come around the corner. We're following the hearse in the limo,

(01:08:44):
and it's my wife, my meeting, my family, my meeting family,
my wife, my brothers, sister, UM, my cousin who's like
a sister to me, and my mom and my dad's brother.
I'm sorry, sister and her brother and her his brother
in law. And I come around the corner and s
I ue had sent our team, and wow, seeing that

(01:09:04):
cougar bus in front of my dad's funeral, in front
of the hearse never and I like, I can't, I
can't even explain it. I'm getting joked up now. And
um walking in there and seeing my team, there's no words,
there's no words, and um. And then from there there

(01:09:24):
was stories and a guy named Reggie Morris stood up
and he played for my dad. He's a two time
state championship I believe Grandfrew Grandview, Missouri now and he
played for my dad. Coach with my dad, and he said,
you know, one thing that Coach Brownie always did a
great job of, was he Basketball takes so much away
from you, takes your time as a coach, and it
takes takes your time as a player, takes your time

(01:09:46):
all the time. But one thing he always did a
great job, and I instill it on my team and
with my within my own family, is that he always
puts family into basketball. He didn't let basketball take away
from family. And that was a moment where I just
kind of sat back on my heels. And then Porter
stood up there, and Porter Moser stood up there and
and set in front of everybody. He was blind, doesn't
even know this, but what he did, what that team did,

(01:10:11):
was what Coach BARRONI was for them to support somebody
like they did getting up at four fifteen in the
morning driving from the St. Louis area to a funeral
up in Chicago. So he he and I didn't know it,
and those things, you know, he talked to my team
and you know Porter, that's family and those are the
things that those two things, three things took my breath away.

(01:10:32):
I say, they still do you want to talk to
you now? It's it's it's it's it's unbelievable. Last thing, Um, Yeah,
s I Edwardsville. And then back when you're they were good.
Was Marty Simmons was there. It was a Division two program,
very good. D D one is hard, and it's hard
when you're you know, whether you're a direction school or not.

(01:10:53):
Even s i U has has had its problems, let
alone s i U Edwardsville. What's what's the process, what's
the process intend to take year one in building this thing?
I think it's about relationships. I really do. I think,
you know, and it couldn't have been if you're going
to take something out of the passing of my dad

(01:11:13):
and in the in the things that I've heard and
it was like he was talking to me, um and
not trying to be kind of you know, it's weird
about it or anything. But I think with the they
everyone who stood up his creating team biparts that those
guys I talked about earlier, when they stand up and
they were talking it was about the relationship that he had,
and I think it totally starts with the relationship. It

(01:11:35):
wasn't always you know, cozy, and it wasn't always you know, flowery,
and he wasn't always being the nicest guy, but there
was a genuine relationship. And I have to start with
the genuine relationship. I gotta walk into every day with
an energy and enthusiasm every single day to demand effort,
and I have to have the relationship to demand it

(01:11:57):
and to push these guys from being, you know, something
that day have never been just something that we were
going to be. And that's that's the that's the base.
That's the thing that I think is gonna that was
lacking here and that will not be lacking I know
under my watch. That is for sure. Awesome. Well, you
have a fan and a friend in me, and of

(01:12:19):
course you have all those you have all those kids
that you have and you got a gaggle of kids.
Stop having kids. But it is does provide a good
cheering section. I love that you had let I love
that you let let uh let me help tell your
story and I want to I want to recap it
as you get to year one. But you gotta we
gotta go through all the different tribulations, the ups and downs,

(01:12:41):
and what's this is? Actually like how you say the
word and you know I I you said it to me,
and you helped me with a friend. But a namigrade
Closton has that passed away? Who you're at those camps
probably floating that keg with back a marquette and had
that passed away. And you gave me advice about six
years ago. And I don't care if I've told you,
I can't tell you enough. Told me to tell my
dad why I love them, not not that I love him,

(01:13:03):
And I'll tell you right now that day I whispered
in his ear. I've said it several times that I
leaned down right before he passed away, and I told
him all the reasons I loved him. And I will
never ever remember that. I forget that advice. And it's
the best advice that I've gotten, and it's the best
advice that you should continue to share. Well, I'm jealous
of you because I didn't didn't get to tell my
old man. It's something you learned from experience, just like

(01:13:25):
we learned from experience in this game. Hey, I'm I'm
so happy for you and your family. I know you've
you've earned this. It's been a long time coming and
look forward to catching up soon. Thanks for everything. Be
sure to catch live editions. So the Doug Got Leaps
show week days at noon eastern three pm Pacific. Alright,
so some pretty emotional moments there at the end. Obviously,

(01:13:47):
um that that is the advice that I would give
to any of you about how you should interact with
your dad with your mom, especially if they were a coach,
but even if they're not. And uh, that was that's
pretty awesome, you know for for a guy who was
you know, coach his son to kind of scrapper as

(01:14:10):
a ball player, to scrapper as I'll do anything to
be on a bench as a juco assistant and then
a head ju COO coach and then you know assistant
in college and you see all the jobs that they
lost into a video guy to to now becoming a
head coach at Division one level and got that job
before his father passed away, so was dad knew they'd

(01:14:31):
finally done it. It's a pretty special journey. I hope
you enjoyed. Joined joining me on and listen to Brian
and what he's accomplished, and we'll see what he does
accomplished there at a place that it's hard to win,
the Vision one level. A reminder, you can listen to
The Doug Gotlib Show every afternoon three to six Eastern
time on Fox Sports Radio, the I Heart Radio app.

(01:14:52):
We're also on Sirius xm Um one of them two
oh three once to seventeen, basically the Dan Patrick Channel.
My thanks for listening. We'll continue with some of these
great stories and great basketball people. Tell a friend about it,
Tweet it out, put it on your Facebook page, download, subscribe,
and write and remember enjoy hoops. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and

(01:15:14):
you have been listening to All Ball