Oral Roberts HC Paul Mills on Helping Rebuild Baylor, Recruiting, Cinderella Sweet 16 Run

In this episode, Doug talks with Oral Roberts Head Coach Paul Mills discusses growing up in Houston as the son of a preacher, how he helped rebuild Baylor after a scandal as an assistant under Baylor's Scott Drew for 14 years, taking over at Oral Roberts and his teams incredible Sweet 16 run as a 15 seed, including taking down Ohio State and Florida. Make sure you download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, welcome in Doug Gottlieb here and you are listening
to All Ball, All Basketball all the time. Um. I
want to do one on some of the n c
A tournament stuff, but right now I just this is
this pot is so good and so timely. I have
a couple other ones. John Gallagher is gonna join me
on a different pod. John, of course, the head coach

(00:27):
of Hartford. He's Irish. John is hysterical. He's hysterical, but
he's also insightful. So we'll drop that one maybe a
little bit tomorrow. This one, I wanted to make sure
we got it out to you because I don't know.
I think this is a pretty darn good UH basketball
team and story, and I thought we could just start here.

(00:50):
Paul Mills is the head coach at Oral Roberts. By
now you've come around to liking or Roberts, watching or Roberts,
but he comes from incredible, the humble beginnings in Houston,
Texas for out of Humbolt, Texas, right, and I think
you'll enjoy hearing his journey, his energy, his thoughts on
what this is all like. And of course he'll preview

(01:11):
a little bit of their rematch with Arkansas team that
they played led by twelve and the second half of
earlier this year in Fayetteville and and ultimately lost to
so without further ado. He's the head coach of Oral
Roberts University, got the job in two thousand seventeen, and
slowly but surely they have started from the bottom. Now
they're here. Let's catch up with Paul Mills of Earl

(01:32):
Roberts and living breathing form Cinderella himself, Cinderella himself, How
are you. I'm great, I'm great. You just live in
life inside the controlled environment. We were off yesterday. Yesterday
was Monday, and so um, so you don't panic because

(01:54):
you don't play again until Saturday night. But so far,
so good. Um, all right, don't I want to I
want you to help me tell your story. Okay? Um, Well,
you're know in su for a long time and obviously
an incredible weekend for your guys bailor basketball family, right uh,
and for or Robertson that university. But you personally, um,

(02:16):
growing up, what was your first memories of basketball and
your first attachment to the sport. Yeah, you know, in America,
basketball is kind of the sport of the poor. Uh
in in European African countries at soccer. But I mean
we couldn't afford a baseball glove or a bat. My
father was a preacher and so we we didn't have

(02:38):
much money, couldn't afford helmets and cleats and shoulder pads.
But you could go down to the end of the
street with a ball with twenty other kids and you
could play and uh, and that was always fun. I
mean five six seven, this is in Houston, yeah, and
so I can remember six seven eight my dad put

(02:59):
up a basket ketball goal in the in the backyard.
And so right around the age ten eleven twelve, I mean, um,
Houston was like on fire. We had five Slam of
jama Um, so those teams were going to the final four.
My birthday is on April the fourth, so my birthday

(03:20):
parties were five Slam of Jamma playing NC State and
uh Wittenberg, Oh it's a long way. Oh he got
it at the buzzer. And I can remember going in
my backyard and just crying and shooting until one o'clock
in the morning. Because and then you had the Michael
Jordan's era, right, and then I had friends who love
magic I had friends who liked Larry, uh and but

(03:43):
I like Mike and so it was just an awesome
time for me basketball wise, where I grew up, you
fell in love with the final four in college. Uh
And I mean and Keith Smart making big shots and
never nervous Purvis and and you just saw this emergence
on this national stage. And it's fit because the environment

(04:06):
where we lived, people were obsessed with basketball. On occasion,
you'd play football in the streets, um, because that only
required one ball. But for the most part we all
played basketball. And then you began to get competitive. Uh,
you got you would have all the arguments for why
Michael was better in Larry or why Michael was better

(04:26):
than Magic and uh, but you wanted to be a
all right whatever, let's go out and hoop ourselves. You
wanted to be good when these people called you out.
So it was it was it was a seven experience
for me. So so your dad, what was what was
the church that he preached that when you were in
North Belt Christian Where is that? Well, all Alden area

(04:53):
is a little north of Houston, So my dad's church
was about five miles north of that. You know what's
referred to as humble Texas. Okay, so it's a humble
sou which I can just like yeah yeah yeah. So um,
you mentioned like you didn't grow up wealthy. I do

(05:15):
think that some people think, well, Southern, that's pretty sure.
You know, he's living high in the hog. He's he's
got he's got a mega church. Yeah, he's got a
major church. That was not how it was for you.
I think most pastors probably preaching churches that are under
a hundred um the vast majority, especially in the South.

(05:36):
As you know, there's there's a church as more churches,
and there are gas stations and I mean there's one
on every corner and so so. So I mean you
were mad for me. I mean I had to be
there three times a week Wednesday night, Sunday morning, Sunday night,
God forbid, there was some prayer service or youth service.

(05:57):
H then you're there four times, but you're definitely there
three and you're mad because you realize other kids are
actually practicing on Wednesday night and you're not. You're mad
because other kids are watching their playing Saturday Sunday night
and you're not. And so church. I love my my
parents obviously, and I'm so grateful for how my my

(06:20):
parents invested in me. But when you're young, you don't
really have that sense. All you want to do is play.
And so to sit in two our church services three
different times each was he was? Was he good? Um?
He had good moments? Uh, you know where when you
preach as long as you not, they're not all gonna
be good. Uh. It's like it's like it's like it's

(06:43):
like it's gonna be like radio ships. Yeah. Yeah, like
like a radio shows you do two hundred thirty a year. Yeah,
you gotta be really really, you gotta be great like
hundred times a year. You gotta be good about a
hundred fifty more times and then you just gotta like, hey,
figure out how to fill time because just it's not

(07:04):
possible that it's a great analogy? Was was he was
he okay with feedback? Did he ever go like I No?
I mean the reality is that so you'd sit on
the back row with all of your friends, right, um,
and so if I if I did something wrong, he
would stop during the sermon, say excuse me up, Paul,

(07:25):
would you come up here to the front row and
sit by your mother? And Uh, so I would have
to get up in the middle of the church with
your head down like a little puppy dog. And uh.
And he had warned me, Hey, son, I'm just telling
you you continue to sit back there because you're you know,
you're you're I'm throwing that. I had a friend who's
sitting next to me at church who was the biggest

(07:47):
l a Lakers Magic Johnson. Uh. His name was Jeremy
Gill and uh. And we would sit there and argue
like and we would want to fight by by the
time they said amen at the in we would want
to fight over the fact that you thought the Lakers
and Magic were better than Michael and the Bulls. And

(08:08):
so it would and then you then we would run.
The church had a gym, and we would go straight
to the gym and you would play until my dad
would stay for two or three hours after the service.
And so sit there and play. You're so but you
did your dad play? No, not at all? Did he does?
Did he understand your your love for the sport? Yes?

(08:32):
I mean uh. When I was a sophomore in high school, um,
I was that you may remember this name, Doug. There
was a guy who led the city of Houston and
scoring named le Bradford Smith. Le Bradford went to Wow,
did you really so? Le Bradford was out of base city.
You know who had the second most points in the

(08:54):
city of Houston, Me and uh le Bradford was a
miss small school? And how small school? I s, I see,
why does everybody have to ask that? Uh, I'm not
telling you we played at the same level. I'm just
telling you that when you're getting you're getting buckets. And
so when the stats get published, it says le Bradford

(09:17):
Smith and Paul Mills. I'm not telling you that we're
going against the same people. Um. But you know what,
I'll tell you this. I shot at every single time
I had the ball, and uh, and I made less
than half so uh. This was at Greenwood Village, um,
and and so at Greenwood Village, literally there's a hundred

(09:37):
kids in the high school. So fifty boys, fifty girls,
maybe twelve of them tried to play basketball, and ten
of them couldn't walk in chew gum. So it was
literally me and one other person. And since I was
the point guard, I got to decide everything, you know, so,
uh and so and then and then what I thought
is your special And I transferred to A five eight,

(09:59):
which is the high ist division in Texas, A five
A public school. Um and and so and then, needless
to say, my stats were not the same everage what
school you transferred to? McAuthur High School, Al Dean McArthur.
So what when you're when you tell your dad like, hey, Dad,
I want to I want to go to a bigger
high school for basketball. What what do you say? Uh?

(10:22):
You know why? And so i just pulled out the
Houston Chronicle and I'm like, look, I mean you can
read you see there's le Bradford Smith. And then the
next year it was Elmer Bennett who went to Notre
Dame from from from bel Air High School. And It's like, Dad, look,
I mean as clear as day that I belong on
a bigger stage. Uh. And and I didn't. Uh. I

(10:44):
loved it. I'm telling you I would not be uh
as passionate and love basketball had I not done it,
because I walked into a situation where I was the
only white kid who played there. I believe in the
twenty seven year history and so the entire i Are school,
especially on the basketball side, is it was black and

(11:05):
so for me to walk into that environment and and
and that was the neighborhood I grew up in anyway,
and so it wasn't any different, but it was such
a I can't I can't imagine not having the experience
of doing that I had. I've had those several of

(11:25):
my high school teammates reach out to me, and I
can't ever imagine myself being able to go down the
path that I've gone without that experience. No question of
socioeconomic different diversity, Listening to all these stories, hanging out
at their houses, them coming to yours, those things just
made all the difference in the world. And it fueled

(11:47):
something in me because it you just realized how good
you had to get. I it's interesting. So, um, we
we always had an AU team from kids from kind
of all over and we had some always had kids
from out central and my dad would we we'd have
practice and get done. He'd drive kids home because their
parents working, and then come back and I'd have to

(12:09):
ride with him. Like that was most of my childhood
outside of playing sports, was driving to and from sports
with my dad, right, But I remember so he used
to tell me he grew up in New York he'd
always teld me, like, Hey, my favorite moments in basketball is,
you know, you walk into a gym and you're the
only white guy, and people if you just you know,

(12:31):
are respectful people and play hard and just come into
hoop like you will be amazed at how kind people
are to you. Because there's still this kind of divide,
right and it's it's hard. I will say it's a
little bit harder in southern California because things are more homogeneous.
But um to two things jump out of my mind

(12:51):
when you tell the story about you in high school.
So when I was in eighth grade, I stayed back
in eighth grade. I was a little as a late bloomer.
And but my team, all my teammates from a you
went on to high school, right, So they're all playing
Most of them played varsities, some played JV whatever, and
so I didn't have a team to play with. So
there was a guy named Sam Minor who ran I

(13:11):
think what's called Team l A at the time. And
there's another guy named Tiny who ran Caney Bowls. And
so for that year I spent most of my afternoons
like at Mr Miner's house or practicing with his teams.
It was the exact same thing where and it was
awesome because it's it's like cultural immersion. And then you
you figure out, you know, it's it's actually one of

(13:33):
the things because I mean, obviously you see somebody's race
being different, and I don't know if you've experienced this,
but because you don't have a there's no racial bone
and anti like racial bone in your body. I just
I've always had a tough time understanding any of this
idea that you don't like somebody because they're black or

(13:54):
you're not. I I just it's like it's like a
gap in my brain where I don't understand, because I mean,
that's a great word, cultural immersion, right, I've never understood, Um,
the Jewish side, I've never understood anti Semitism. Right. Um,

(14:15):
It's like they look the same as everybody else. We
all look alike, you know. And then obviously when you
deal with different skin colors and you're dealing with Hispanic
and you're dealing with African American, Um, they just want
to accept you for who you are and know that
you're about the right things. And that was what and

(14:36):
I wanted to so earn their respect, um, and so
you would. I was the guy who was diving all
over the floor for loose balls. I was a guy
that was I'm gonna guard that guy. And so you
just the the cultural immersion is such a great it's
such a great word, because you wanted to immerse yourself,

(14:57):
uh to gain credibility, and uh that was what you did.
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox sports
Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app
search f s R to listen live. The other part
that you point out, which is but just is really smart,
which is like, at the end of day, people, most

(15:20):
people you are gonna judge you as a person, and
and they figure out that there's there's good white people,
there's bad white people, there's good black people, is bad
black people. Right, there's people are about the right things
and people that are not. And and people can spot
a phoney eventually, especially I've always said, especially you were
recruited obviously at a really high level when you've been

(15:43):
around it, and you you can spot this stuff. I
mean quick. I tell people all the time, I don't
bat a thousand, but I'm bat um because you know
what when I was fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen eighteen, you
were around it, and you tell the people that they
just want to be around us, but they're they're not

(16:04):
serious about hooping, or they just want to be around
us because because they want to be in the group,
but they're not really sincere people. I think guys like
you even have even a better Ententa because y'all went
through the experience of the recruiting and then you see
it for what it is, and so you see it.
On the other hand, you see it. I think I
think kids can spot phony in terms of guys that

(16:24):
are recruiting them as well. Yes, so why did you
Why did you go on to a and m uh,
so I went to a Division two school. UM had
the opportunity and obviously wanted to play um diving for
a loose ball. One day I cracked the bottom vertebrae
on my spine and um, uh Southern Nazarene University in

(16:49):
uh in Oklahoma City, and uh we actually there were
in that conference. The Sooner Athletic. Oh are you was
in that conference at the time, and um there there
was actually two and the eight picks out of there.
Greg Sutton from Oor, you went to the Spurs, and
then a transfer from Georgetown named Turner from Phillips University
was seventeen picked to the Rockets. So you saw good basketball.

(17:10):
And what happened was was I got injured. Um one
day at practice, cracked the bottom burde brae in my spine. UM. Saw.
You know, all these specialists do all these things long
story short, instead of your basketball careers over. And I
can remember being in the doctor's office and the tears
just flowing and um. And so now you know this, Doug,
there's nothing worse than being a manager. When you've been

(17:33):
a player. The whole idea that you're gonna rebound and
get guys water, and that's what people did for me.
I'm not gonna do it for them because you thought
of your that where you put people was based on
how well they hooped. Well, managers can't hoop. So I
was like, I'm just gonna travel with the team, gonna

(17:53):
go around, but I'm not gonna be a manager. And uh.
And so I realized, like listen, um, I when you're young,
you're arrogant. I said, if I can't play basketball, as
these doctors have said, Um, I'm gonna transfer closer to home,
So I went closer to home. Uh, and and I
would hang out. At that time, it was g Raleigh

(18:14):
White Collison UH and Tony Browne was a head coach.
Porter Moser was an assistant, And I kind of walk
through the concourse and you'd breathe it in and you'd
watch some practices here and there. It was hard. Uh,
But I, um, Joe Wilbert, do you know that name
at all? From Texas A and M. But but Joe

(18:34):
was an All conference Southwest Conference player and he's a friend.
But but you began to get close to, you know,
knowledgeable and close to some of the basketball players. But
you're just so eat up that you can't participate because
nobody ever gets into this thing to coach. You get
into it to play. Uh. Playing is what's fun. Coaching
is rewarding. But then it was like, man, you know,

(18:57):
what can I help people? Um, I'm this little bitty
white kid, and I wonder if I could just help
people with the game of basketball. And so that kind
of started a path for me because I just wanted
to be around the game so much. So how do
you show? How did you how did you get in

(19:19):
you start the high school job first. No. Yeah, So
my dad had a church and so in the summers,
UM I would say, hey, who wants to play basketball?
So what you get? Wast neighborhood kids show up and
you're playing for three or four hours. Well, then you
start to hear their stories, right, and these are kids,
and then you recognize the ones who are good, and
you want to help those guys, and so you'd schedule

(19:42):
individual sessions. Uh. And then the kids who didn't have
school clothes or shoes. You know, you had a soft
heart for those guys and you were helping them. And
I just realized that basketball was a carrot that attracted
these young men, even though we're in different demographic, socio
economic situations, that would allow me to help you. And

(20:04):
I just became enamored with it of trying to help
guys and so UM there at the church, Uh, we
had some high school kids and at Northfelt Christian and
we would run around and play other high schools. UM
played various schools throughout the city of Houston. So after

(20:24):
three years of doing that, I said, Man, I don't
want to do this kind of on a part time basis.
I want to do this all the time, like one
hundred percent of the time all year. And took another
high school job across town at a Fort Ben Baptist,
and I taught calculus and pre calculus and and got
to coach. And you know this one was official, right

(20:46):
because this one has a state championship associated with it
rather than just running around and playing games, more like
an A A U event. So did that for three years,
loved it. Um. I would tell you that they ran
me out of there after a final four experience. Um.
They just thought that basketball, in my mind, was becoming
too big. They were starting football and you never overrun

(21:08):
football in the state of Texas. And uh. And so
I was like, you know what, I'm four time co
district coach of the year, right, big deal? Huh and
uh we just went off the final four. I'm like
the Phil Jackson of high school coaches and uh, people
will hire me? And so here it is, so this
I just resigned. How did that man? How old am I? Um?

(21:31):
And so uh resign and you know there goes June, July, August, September,
and nobody's hired me. I did have a job offer
it in northern Arizona. My Cadris was great, and I
didn't want to move. I wanted to stay in Houston.
Um Bob Hoffman at ut pay and Am had brought
me in and I thought I was gonna go there.
Then I thought I was gonna go with Ray McCallum

(21:52):
to Houston. But long story short, here it is October
and I have nothing, and I'm just I'm just depressed,
right because you really think that you know something, and
what you don't realize is you really don't know much.
Um and Willis Wilson at Rice University heard about it
and he called me and he said, Paul, I'll give
you two thousand dollars for the year, uh to come

(22:12):
over here and help us. And I said, um, let
me ask you something. Can I sit on the bench?
He said, you'll go with us all the games and
you'll sit on the bench. I said, done deal. Uh.
So I remember the first game, like road game, being
at Stanford, and that's fine. And I thought it was
the most incredible thing in the world that all this
stuff you ever watched on TV, you were sitting there

(22:35):
watching it up close, and uh, what was the what
was the big kid's name? He has short arms? He
played a little in the NBA for the Rockets brought Gillespie.
Mike Harress played for Houston, Mike Carress, Michael Harris. He
was a six six undersized dunking for play for the
Utah Jazz. So you're with Michael every day, right, and

(22:57):
you're with we had another player, Jason mc brief, who
who got some NBA looks. Um So we had several guys.
We were good. And you're traveling and you're in you
you had the gym where they played badminton. Yes, right
behind it. People don't Rice. Before they redid the arena, Okay,
they used to have at one end, there was a

(23:18):
big curtain, a curtain we did. Dave Revson I did
again there and he's like, and we're coming of dext
Will say, what's behind that curtain? Right? They're and and
but you know Hawaii is in the conference, so you're
traveling to Hawaii. Boise State was good. Um Tulsa was

(23:41):
really good at that time, and so I just became
enamored with it. Um man, how do we get Rice?
So so Willis Wilson, who um uh he was. He
was like the first guy he Willis Wilson was the
first guy too that we we did a game and
he lost the game, but he came over to shake

(24:02):
everybody's hands. But he wasn't feeling that well. He's like,
you know, I'm not feeling that well, let me give
be an elbow. This is like two thousand four whatever.
And I was just and and revs and I remember
we we sat there and we said like that that's
the classiest thing. And he no college basketball coach does that? Right?
Everybody else? Anyway, what did you learn from him? What

(24:26):
was what was he like to to coach, to watch coach?
What did he do? One? He was phenomenal in his
player relationships. And I think so many coaches will talk
to a team, right, Um, they'll get everybody down, they'll
talk to the team, But how many coaches actually kind
of put their arm around guys and say I need

(24:46):
you to hang out with me twenty minutes after practice? Uh?
Is life good? Everything? All right? I thought he was brilliant.
I mean, what what I realized is just one how lucky, um,
you are just to be in this profession, especially when
you're like a little man syndrome guy like me and

(25:09):
and and so you're just so fortunate and and when
you look at at Willis's teams in the years that
he's been healthy, Um, they win and and when they
do a phenomenal job. But I feel bad that coach
w hasn't had an opportunity to experience an NC double
A tournament. And so when you get this opportunity, you

(25:31):
want to honor it because of the people that have
invested in you. And Willis was as good as it
gets in regards to helping guys and their personal relationships
of phenomenal and just a class act. And he would
want he has somebody. You want your you're to be invested.
You want him investing in you because he's pouring into

(25:51):
you the right things. Okay, so you do that for
a year. Uh where were you when the bailor thing
went down? Was? I was in Houston? Thought is the
craziest thing you had ever heard of? Um? Man, one
player killing another player? This is nuts and um And
so I when I was a high school coach, I

(26:14):
had brought in I would hold a clinic every year
and um brought in you know, coach Mjaris I would
hang out with. In the summer. I would go to
Utah and and learned Michael White Knight from Florida. Uh,
my room was here, Michael's was across. I remember one
summer as we spent time because I just thought coach
Mjaris was the best teacher in the world. But when

(26:36):
I was a high school coach, I travel around. I
go to Duke, I go to North Carolina, I go
to Utah. I'd spend every penny I had trying to
get around who I thought were really good coaches and
and those guys are obviously and so um and so
going through it, I thought it was just crazy. When
the whole Baylor thing went down and there was news
because we had had a good year at Rice that

(26:58):
Willis was gonna take the take the job at Baylor,
and and I remember him talking about would Joel want
to go into an environment like that? I remember thinking like,
no way, Like I'm not going to Waco, Texas. I'm
a Houstonian. I am staying here. I will beg my
way onto the next guy who takes over for you,

(27:19):
Coach w But why in the world would you walk
yourself into that situation? Okay, so Scott, that's the job,
the job. Uh huh, how did you how did you
have a relationship with Scott, Like, how did that happened? No,
so John Lucas, Uh, and John Lucas the third obviously
his son is a point guard at UM at Baylor,

(27:42):
and and so John Lucas worked out at six am
every morning in the rice gym in our auxiliary gym,
hit NBA players in there. And I can remember Josh Howard,
I can remember a Dwight Howard. I can remember multiple
high school kids who are elite you being in there
yell ming. So I was always hanging around John Lucas

(28:05):
in the mornings at five thirty and then go do
my job at nine. And John was like, would you
like to go to Baylor? I was like no, and
he and I'm like, John, your son isn't even gonna
stay there, and he said that's right, He's gonna go
to somewhere else, you know, eventually Oklahoma State. And and
so I think people had told him, if you want
to be familiar with Texas, you need to talk to

(28:26):
this guy, Paul Mills. A long story short, Scott calls
me and UM end up visiting with him for about
an hour and uh, and I just said, man, this
guy is a scatter brain he has no chance in
the world at Baylor University, like he is weighing over
his head. And he said, would you uh consider coming
up here? I remember here's a question. He said, how

(28:47):
much do you make? And I said around twenty thousand? Uh.
You know, my definition is like Bill Clinton, depends what
your definition of is is. So my definition of around
is like plus or mindus eighteen d uh and so
I said around twenty. He said I can pay you
a little bit more and I said, okay, um. He said,
what you consider coming up here? And I said, no,

(29:08):
I won't. Uh. I said, I've already been promised an
assistant spot if anybody leaves here. I'm from Houston. I'm
not walking into that situation. He said, well, let me
tell you something I heard. Faith was important to you.
Wouldn't you at least pray about it? And I said,
you know what, I'll pray about it, but I'm about
certain God will say no to and uh. So, long
story short, he and I just continue to talk and

(29:29):
he can we beat Texas? Can we beating? And him,
how do you get recruits in the state of Texas?
Who are the people you need to know? Dot dot?
I so we do this Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday for
an hour every night. And I said, listen, man, you've
been so kind. I said, I'll come to you on Saturday. Uh.
He was just come up here and visit and just
hang out. Let me get to know you. So I
go up there, my wife and I and Willis tries

(29:51):
to talk me out of it. He's like, I don't
think that's smart, but you you do what you want.
And they have a guy named c J. Miles on
campus and now he's now he's on You had the
job for a week, and I'm like, he just he's
got c J Miles. C J Miles is the best
player in the state of Texas. Like, how did you
get c J Miles on campus? And c J eventually
goes high school the NBA, and uh, I don't even

(30:14):
know if he's still playing, but he's been playing for
a long time and uh. And I was like, that's incredible.
And then at the same time, you just realized, like, man,
this is different level of basketball, this is this is
the Big twelve, and this is a different caliber. And
so I just became enamored with that. And uh eventually said,

(30:35):
you know what, I'll come up here and helps. I
was in an operations role, and and the people that
were there, and we were just I was in my twenties,
Scott was thirty two when he took the job. Um,
you couldn't tell us anything, right like, we were winning
the conference. And I think if if somebody older had
taken that job, sixty, who had been around the block,

(30:57):
they would have understood how hard that was. We didn't
know anything. So we worked till three in the morning
and we were all back in there by eight. And
it was that way seven days a week for three
straight years. And we were burning that candle and uh
and and I remember our second year, we were running
around going we're conference champs. Oklahoma State had just gone

(31:19):
to the Final four with John Lucas and you gotta
remember Lawrence Roberts, Kenny Taylor went to Texas started John Lucas,
Oklahoma State Big twelve player of the Year, and you
just was like, man, if you can keep kids in
Texas and and there's really good players here and um,
and so that year we're running around second year and

(31:41):
said we're gonna win conference. We won one game. We
went one in sixteen in conference and uh and then
you that was with it? Who who I was? If
you lost to us in our first year we won
four games, you were fired. Uh. All those guys lost
their jobs. Um the year the second year when we

(32:02):
beat a Colorado I think, um, unfortunately coach Patton wasn't
able to keep his job. So we were like, you
don't lose the Baylor like and and so, what you
realize after that second year, like reality hit. You're going
up against Hall of famer Ready Sutton, You're going up
against Hall of Famer Bob Knight. You're going up against

(32:24):
hall of famer Bill self in my mind, hall of
famer Rick Barnes. Uh. You had um NBA coaches at
Iowa State, Lon Krueger. Let me tell you something is
really really good. Uh. And and so you realize Bob
Huggins was at k State, and you just like, oh
my goodness. And we realized like this one, you better

(32:47):
go get players, but two we better figure out what
the heck we're doing. So so let's let's start with
the getting players. What how do you get? How do
you get guys? I just uh so the first big
class for us, you'll remember is is we got him
all our first year now, UM Curtis geralds Um was

(33:08):
out of Bustin. He committed at the end of our
first year. UM Henry Dugott Um was was from coach
Tang Jerome Tang's city where he grew up and his
in laws actually lived across the street. So Jerome was
never in the office. He was always at his in
law's house, uh waiving every time, like Henry picked up

(33:29):
the mail. Henry dugott was really good. We got a
player from Senegal named Mama do Den, and then we
got a player out of Dallas name Kevin Rogers. And
so those four came in for our year three and
we based that was a little point guard from New Orleans.
Uh Tweetie Carter, Yeah, he came in. He came in

(33:51):
that next year, and so we added those four. Then
we added a guy Tweetie Carter, Josh Lomer's and then
we added lace Darius Done. Then he had a quincy
a c Sterius Done like he was really He and
Tweete were the two highest biggest name recruits. Right, yeah,
what's what's the How do you just give me the

(34:13):
give me the late Sterius done? How that? How is
that relationship? How did you go through it. How did
you get so so late? Sdarius done is um from Monroe, Louisiana. Um,
if you have ever been to Monroe, Louisiana where he lived, Um,
it was it was a tougher place that I had
ever been to. I mean, the the shoes are over,

(34:33):
the telephone lines, electricity lines. I mean it's the same.
So you you first saw him, what, Yeah, I saw
him Mark Moorefield, Mark Moorefield saw him, loved him at
an AU event. Now he's a very much a homebody.
And he played in one more AU event against the
who's the player for the Houston Rockets who went to Indiana?

(34:56):
Um plays for the Rockets right now? Um the uh
Eric Gordon. He played against Eric Gordon and killed all right,
and all of a sudden he's top twenty in the country. Well,
you know what, he says, I don't want to do
anymore these AU tournaments. I'm sick of him. So his
AU coaches like Elden Pipes, the phenomenal man, says you

(35:18):
need to like visit some places. So he takes into
Old miss because that's close to Louisiana, and he doesn't
like it because the locker room is dirty. He's like,
I can't believe these people just leave their clothes out
like this. And so he goes played, only plays in
local events, doesn't travel anymore. He just he doesn't like it.
And so one day Coach Pipes is driving him home

(35:40):
and we had been begging for a visit, and um,
he says, look, Baylor is only four and a half
hours away. I'm just he's asleep. I'm just we're just
driving to Baylor. Got honest to goodness and so so apparently,
But when you listen to Lace Darius tell the story,
Lace hit me the other day. Uh, he he's my
most He's the most talented kid I ever coached in

(36:03):
my life. Um, and I've been fortunate to coach thirteen
NBA guys, but that guy was the most talented. He
u he said. He says, I woke up in Dallas
and I was like, what the heck? Like, where are we?
I thought I was going home. I didn't realize I
fell asleep. So he says, listen, we're just gonna go
by here at Baylor. He didn't, he said, he didn't
even realize how long he had been asleep. And so
he comes in and he sees our locker room and

(36:24):
it's clean, and he says, I'm going here. That's how
it happened. He committed. He was done. He never played
in another A A U event. Uh, he was finished.
And that is honestly how he committed to Baylor is
we had a cleaner locker room and old miss well,
old mrs. Old places are dumb. But I think this

(36:45):
is before you got the basketball facility though, right, this
is before they added on with the yeah, this was yeah,
this was. This was before the cleaner locker room. She cleaning.
This is next to guy man. And let me tell
you something at Rice, apparently Drew Brees was gonna go
to before he went to Purdue, and they said they
showed up one day and they took him through an
entrance that was normally clean and said he walked through

(37:07):
there and said he saw something and it was just like, man,
that's not the same presentation that I got originally. So
apparently that was why he went from Austin, Texas to Purdue.
And I've learned from the lace areas done and the
Drew Brees when I hear the Rice football staff tell it, uh,
we we clean like crazy before recruits show up. So

(37:30):
now you got guys going. And if we remember back then,
Scott became like he was a big zone guy. Right, Yeah,
it was we were We're gonna be the zone team.
Nobody else plays zone to sleep. We're gonna be the
zone team. Yeah, Who's whose idea was? That? Was? That? Yours? That?
When he was at Valpo, he was always impressed with

(37:51):
Stu Moral at Utah State and he loved Stu Moral
and and what they did defensively, and obviously Stu morals
an offensive genius um, but what they did defensively, he said,
really gave him problems. So what a one three one
on one side out? It's more of a one one
three and and the and and basically you're moving up

(38:14):
the wings based on are you a shooter are you not.
If you're a shooter, you're higher. If you're not, you're lower.
And so I mean it looks like a one three
one at times depending upon who you have out on
the court. And so what happened with us was we
had six ft nine three men uh Anthony Jones, Quincy
miller Um had these guys and other teams three men

(38:38):
were six four or six five six, six and they
couldn't keep up. And so we just said, man, let's
just utilize our length and at the end of the day,
let's push up and let's push guys to f a
Ut he can block shots better than anybody. Let's push
up and invite them to go to Isaiah Austin. Let's
push up and make guys go to Corey Jefferson. And

(38:59):
so all it was was we had six ft nine
three men who they struggled to stay in front of
the ball on smaller guys. So let's utilize something that
kind of pushes the three point line and makes them
go meet people at the rim where we think we
have really good rim protectors. And so that was really
the logic behind all of it. Um, what was it

(39:24):
like to go from when you first got there and
you had to get kids to just come play on campus.
I guess walk ons too. Then you're in the Elite
eight and you're basically one A charge call, A charge call, Yeah,
I mean like it was a bad call, a charge
call from beating Duke to go to the final four,

(39:45):
But like it is, how is how is Scott with
perspective with the because I know it still burns in
him in his mind this whole week, he's gonna be
thinking about the Duke Games, right, the Elite eights, because
he's that kind of petitor. But in your experience with them,
how is he with the perspective of where they where
you guys were too, how close you're getting to win

(40:08):
the whole thing? Yeah? One, I tell you, Scott is
very impatient. And what I think maybe would have happened
in seven years eight years, Um, he was just no,
is not an answer. I can just tell you that
right now. You better figure it out. Um, if you're
gassed to do something I can't know, it's not you.

(40:29):
That's not a don't even go there. I I learned
that one quick. But he was. He's impatient, and it
was a good thing. And everybody's like, oh, Scott Drew
is such an optimist, and I'm like, y'all should be
behind closed doors. And he never he never once said
a bad thing. I've never heard him utter a curse word. Uh,

(40:49):
And behind closed doors he would always be like, guys,
we better get better. As coaches, we better get better,
and as we better go get better players, and he
says we're not very good. So he would always come
in after every loss, and there were a bunch of
them those first three years, and he's just constantly challenging you, like,
we're just not very good and you know I and

(41:10):
his first response was I need to do better. And
so you're over there like, oh yeah, okay, you're gonna
call me out. I can't believe. And then he'd go
in front of the media and be like, you know,
we're headed in the right direction, guys, And I'm like,
you just told us how awful we were as a
stat what what what did he get? You watched him though,
How did he get better? Because he's a better coach,

(41:33):
You're a better coach. He uh, he became attracted to
I tell you guys who invested in him. One his
dad obviously, um Thad Mada. I can't tell you how
many times we come in and say, well that Mada
does this, and I'd be like that Mada is not

(41:54):
in Waco, Texas, coach, uh, and you know, or my
dad suggested this, and then you'd be upset that You're like, well,
coach Drew isn't around here every day. And and so
I think what he did was he became super interested
and hey, we struggle not taking care of taking care
of the ball. Who does a great job taking care

(42:14):
of the ball. And you know, Scott, he's gonna ask
nine million questions and and he's going through all these
questions and you know, and he's just gonna pick your brain,
pick your brain, and he's gonna be very deliberate about
it and think through it. And what you don't realize
is that he is over there taking and and you're

(42:34):
giving and and and that's he was such a learner
and he realized he's really is really from my experience,
an interesting you know. I mean he I don't remember
one time he pay him to come down and speak,
but he But but it was we played logals. You
were really good on on dunk ball, so you got

(42:55):
you called logals. We just we called it. We called
it logals. And because we moved the goal of nine
ft right. It was great, it was it was awesome.
You were killing, you were killing. I'm one of the
great dunk one of the great. I'm the greatest Jewish,
don't you are. I'll tell you you're obviously the best
nine ft goal hooper we ever had come through. That
was the problem was the problem, was the hoop was

(43:17):
the right hype anything else, But no, he's that fascinating
guy because you know he would he would text me.
Doesn't do it as much anymore. Do you text me
all the time? Like you watch our game? Yeah, give
me three things you saw? Tell me how I can
be better. I was like on your team every day.
He's like, yeah, you know, I respect you. Tell which

(43:38):
tem what you think. And so I had said him
stuff and sometimes I was like, you know, like listen,
you may not like this. I don't know, give me
give me more. Like well, like you didn't run anything
at this point in time, you didn't know they were
going to switch down. Um, okay, So how did the
O r U thing happen? Yeah? And so after you know,

(43:59):
seen was a good year for us at Baylor. We
were number one in the country. Um ended up going
to the Sweet six team lost to a final fourth
South Carolina team, And um, you know when when the
O r U thing happened. Um, it was late. It
was two weeks after I mean the national championship had
been played. And so I mean we were I mean

(44:22):
well down the road. I mean, you know, as an
as an assistant. I mean there may be some opportunities
out there, but you kind of know once once a
week or two after the national championship that stuffs over.
Those dominoes have quit falling. And uh. And so when
when the o Ruth thing happened, it was a little surprising.
And I had a number of people reach out and say, listen, Paul,

(44:44):
it's a Christian school in the South, that's what you're
currently at. You would do a great job there, and
and and and so. Um. But you know, you know
what also knew Jerome tang uh would do a great
job there. Uh that there was another guy who, hey,
there's a Christian school in the South, he would do

(45:04):
another and he had just interviewed um I believe in
New Mexico State. Uh when when they had when that
guy when when the coach went to you and l
V and so Marvin Menzies know who is the other
guy who interviewed it? At are you that put interviewed
in Mexico State? Um? I honestly forget okay and so

(45:28):
and so we didn't want to like hurt each other,
and I said, Jeroma, pull out if you this is something.
And we called their administration said y'all don't need two
people who kind of come from the same tree, because
we're both been there for fourteen years, we're both going
to recruit Texas, we're both from Houston. Were very similar

(45:48):
and uh, but Jerome went in and and he had
a certain dollar number and personnel requirements. Well, I'm wait,
I'm a much cheaper date. Uh, and so I just
I mean, they they said, hey, this is what we pay,
and it's we were all gonna gonna take a pay
cut regardless of who took the job. And uh, I said,

(46:12):
you know what, Uh, I'm I'm I'm interested. Uh And
and fortunately things went well, and um, you take the job.
I think it was May one, You're two weeks after
the signing period. Um, obviously, and I you know you
had to. Nobody helped me more on that than Scott Sutton. Um.

(46:35):
He was phenomenal. Um, he said, Paul, I've invested so
much of my life there, and however I can help you.
And uh, some people there and we didn't see eye
to eye. And because we didn't see eye to eye,
it is what it is. This happens in this profession.
But I want you to know I'm invested in however
I can help and I can't thank Scott enough for

(46:57):
the class. It's amazing. It's amazing how he handled that situation. Um,
there was no bitterness and UM and and he he
and Sean UM really from the ground up said listen,
here's our take. UM, do what you want, but but
let me give you advice as you kind of walk
through it. So my first year, I didn't you take

(47:19):
the job two weeks after the signing period. So I'm
not at the end of year one. No, no no matter
how good or bad I am. UM, they're not gonna
fire me. Um, I don't give me more than one year.
And we weren't very good. But I made a decision
that I'm saving nine scholarships. I'm not adding anybody. It's
May first, it's well past the signing period. And so

(47:40):
I just said, this first year is a wash, uh,
and enjoy it. What did not? What? What did? What
did you learn? Like? Look, you you've been ahead coach before,
but at the high school level. Now you know much
higher level, but you hadn't moved at eight That's that's
a big eighteen inch move, right, So you what did
you learn about yourself in terms of how you wanted
to play? You want to coach because you're different now

(48:01):
than the last time you're had coach. Yeah. Well, I'll
tell you this. We were one in seven and uh,
I thought to myself, like, I don't know, like I
may have made a bad decision here. I mean, I
had a way easier situation, uh than than what I
had at Baylor. And and then what you realize is,

(48:22):
you know, you get those thoughts like, man, maybe I'm
not cut out for this. This is way different than
what I anticipated. Um. And now at the end, you're
used to be in the Power of five playing to
these schools. Now you're on the other end. Like we
play Oklahoma State and we lose by forty two, and
Bill self text me after the game and he says,
Paul only lost by forty one the first time I

(48:43):
played him. Uh, I remember, I remember he got the job.
He got the job of Kansas and and you know,
Bill me, he's the best. He goes. Uh, he tells
the me, He's like, y'all know, I lost one in
one row Rogers my first year. You guys didn't know
what that was in the press release, yeah and so
and so it was little things like that because I remember,

(49:06):
like forty two guys. We just got beat for I
may not know. I don't know what I'm doing, and
and and he's texting, you only lost by forty one.
And then we go to Penn State, Um, wait, get
drilled by those guys, and and coach Chambers, Pat Chambers,
he could have beat us by a hundred. He called

(49:27):
the dogs off. We go to UH Arkansas, they beat us.
They could have beat us by a hundred. And what
I realized was one as we got into conference, I
don't need to prepare a team to beat Power fives.
I need to prepare a team to win our league.
And and what you need is guard play. And so

(49:50):
that next year we bring in nine new players. Uh
we brought in Kevin o'banner at semester. UM. He showed
up and I wanted him to kind of go through
it to see what it was. And so that was
his red shirt here. So that next year we bring
in nine new players. Three of those guys start for
UH Forest right now. Um one of them is our
six man who did start as a freshman, but he

(50:13):
had some injuries. And so four or four of the
top six guys were with us or part of that
nine and uh. So from that perspective, very similar to
the Baylor Right, we bring in Curtis, Henry, Kevin and
Mama do and we ride with those. I was riding
with these guys and and the good and the bad, right,

(50:34):
the highs and the lows. So that's when they're freshman,
you're not any good and we weren't any good. We're
actually worse. UM. And then that third year, we've played
Oklahoma State, I think the second game of the year. UM,
we had played a nine D one and then played
no you know what. We played in the first game
of the year and we lose by three, and I

(50:56):
was like, oh man, we may be all right. And
uh in that next game play Division when school Houston
Baptist and went by fifteen eighteen plus and uh. And
then you're like, okay, uh, we're gonna be okay. And
then you just then you just begin this process of
instilling belief into your Kevin O'Bannon. Where did you first

(51:21):
see him? How did you get him? Uh? I saw
him at UH at an au event in South Carolina
where his zion was that and UM zion was over
on that on one court, and so everybody was over there,
and I went over here to watch Texas Pro and
I remember he got a rebound and he went up
and dunked it, and I looked around. I'm like, all right,

(51:41):
nobody else saw that. Uh. And and and then I
found out. I said where is he from? He's from Houston.
And I said, all right, Uh, what does his parents
to said their preachers. I was like, his mom and
his dad, they're like both of them. And I was like,
so they're like co pastors of a church. And I
was like, okay, uh, here we go. Oh. And I'm

(52:05):
telling you it was Laser. I wore that poor kid out. Uh.
Now he was getting attention from wake Forest and and
really it was US or Nevada at the time. But
I wore that poor kid out. And uh and and
and so how do you how do you go and
you sit with the parents, and and how do you

(52:26):
I mean, obviously then being preachers, they understood or Roberts,
but when they're sitting there and there trying to judge. Okay,
my kid could go to Nevada, a program that has
put guys in the NBA recently, you know, And and
or I could go to or rob Its like how
do you convince some somebody to buy in when there's
there's outside of your association with Baylor, there's no substance.

(52:49):
How do you make somebody believe in your vision? Yeah?
Well one, I think one of the neat things about
the thirteen NBA guys that I've had the privilege of coach,
Antenna of them were never ranked right. They were never
ranked top one D high school players um quincy A,
c Perry Jones, and Isaiah Austin. Were those other guys, Royce, O'Neil,

(53:10):
Taurean Prince, um quincy A, c at a Ut None
of those guys were. And so what you were telling
those guys is, listen, I know everybody has coaches, they
have all these plays. I'm not a big believer in that.
I don't think in January there are two magic plays.
I would rather have two better players. And So, here

(53:33):
is what we're gonna do individual development. Wife, And I'm
not telling you, We're just showing you a schedule. Here's
how committed we're gonna be to you. Here's your morning workouts,
here's your afternoon workouts. Here's what we're doing. And and
so it was listen for me, developments the name of
the game. I've been fortunate to be around guys that

(53:55):
that's translated. And I'm telling you that I would rather
have two better players than two more plays. And I'm
you're gonna get invested in and I want you to
know that. And you know what they do. They have
to take a calculated risk, whether or not you know
what you're doing. And I said, you're gonna be in
a great environment where the temptations are not gonna be heavy,

(54:17):
and so you are gonna have an opportunity. The best
thing you can do is be in the gym. And
I want you to know that I live in there. Uh.
And so he decides to come and uh, and you
know what, he's a freshman All American. Uh. He was
a freshman Conference Player of the Year. He was a
six Man of the Year. And then all of a sudden, um, hey,

(54:40):
you know what, guess what what they actually told us
has come to fruition. So when you tell Max A
Smith this, he's like, well, Kevin, I don't know. Now
I wanted to I wanted to match. Yeah, now you
have kep Uh when when in the timeline did you
first see match four thirty afternoon tune on a Saturday

(55:01):
at an AU event on court number one at Drive Nation. HM, okay,
and he runs. I knew he could shoot, so coming in,
I was like, all right, he weighs a twenty pounds,
it's not very big. Um uh that's okay, six ft

(55:21):
now one twenties exaggerating, but I literally he's one forty.
Um he's six ft five eleven, one forty. But he's
off the ball and he can shoot that thing. And
it's like, man, this little dude, if he gets his
hands on it, like he can make these shots. And
then he runs a pick and roll with a player
who ended up going to a Big ten school. Um.

(55:44):
I think they were the only two Division one players
on that on on on that AU team. And when
I say it was too perfection, I was sitting there
like that is a dime and that's a heck of
a read and and the kid just goes up. He's
a X eleven guy, goes up and dumps it. And
I just said, holy cow. I said, if this kid

(56:04):
can really handle and see like that, um, we just
need to put weight on him. Because what I realized
over the years is is we would pass up on
kids at Baylor if you were chubby, and and they
would go on and become conference player of the year
somewhere else. And and I said, you know what, people
can lose weight, uh, and you know what people can

(56:26):
gain weight. And so you just began to concentrate. You
got less concerned with do they have a big twelve
body or do they have a college ready body? It's
do they have a college ready skill? Already knew he
could shoot, but when I saw that pass, I was
that was it for me. I was locked. So was
he was he a junior? Was he gonna? Yeah? He

(56:49):
would he was, he was going into a senior year. Uh,
he had offers from all the military academies. He's really smart.
Um and uh and maarrassed. And so no other Texas schools.
You're in Texas. You're in Texas, and you got a
guarden in school and you got I mean you got
s m U and TCU and there were coaching where

(57:10):
you got Texas. You had to be Texas State for him.
You had to be for him. Yeah. And and so
I will say this I thought is better than grand size.
That what you're telling me? No, no, no, no, no,
I'm not saying they were chasing other people. And so
everybody gets to chase other people. But I'll tell you

(57:30):
Coach Springman Um, who is a Texas for seventeen years
with coach Ball Russell sawing and he's like, you gotta
get here. I'm just telling you, And I was like
all right, and and literally we're like the only people there. Um,
there's like, Noah, there's Division two schools. There were like
the only Division one schools there. Everybody else is all
of these other bigger events. UM. And I think I

(57:53):
flew back from South Carolina at that event where I
had seen Kevin and Um, I flew in to watch
Matt and Um and Russell had been there, and just
like I'm just I said, Russell had had had been
at San Diego and then he was with Oklahoma City Thunder.
I said, would you take him at San Diego? He said,
And I said, that's all I need to know. And

(58:14):
he was such a wonderful young man and and so
it was how do we get him? And um and
again we were fortunate. Okay, So fast forward that to
the conference tournament this year, because well, you've had a
wild year. Point they lost UMKC on the other hand,
they're good by the way. Uh they're good by the way.

(58:36):
I know they are. But when you tell people like
they're in the street sixtein the same year they lost
the NDCs, like really, like we we don't even I
don't even knows who finished ahead of you in the
Summit League, right, they just don't. It's it's that's it.
That's kind of the magic of this thing. How did
it all come together in the conference tournament? Yeah, I
mean we could have finished. I mean we had some
COVID cancelations cancelation you know, and had we been able

(59:01):
to win that game, we would have been as finished second.
And so I felt like in the problem is as
the first two seeds get buys. And so we knew
going into this that we had to win three games
in three days. Well in our conference. Of the thirty
one conferences that played this year, IVY League being the
only one who didn't, seventeen of the thirty one played
back to back games, So we knew, hey, back to back,

(59:25):
we're gonna be okay. So the four five matchup, um,
we had lost a one point game and then we
had won the other one by seventeen. So we felt
good about that. Uh, the number one seed. We had
won by seventeen and then we lost by fifteen, and
we really uh the South Dakota State and so you
know that they've had Nate Walters and Mike don through

(59:48):
the years, really good players, and we they had the
returning Conference player of the year. But I'm after our
first conference game, I remember telling the staff, I said,
I'm pretty sure we got the best point guard in
the league. And if we have the best point in
the league, but the best team in the league, and
and I said, this needs to show itself. So we
needed to pick up some areas in defensive intensity, and

(01:00:09):
we needed to better understand shots selection, and if you
look down the stretch, I think all of that just
begins to come together. You know. It's kind of like
when do your children finally understand, Hey, I've been saying
that same message. I've been telling you that for two years,
and they come in and like, Dad, did you know, Well,
I've been telling you that for two years, and it

(01:00:29):
just sometimes it just clicks, right. Well, it clicked, and
so we end up winning a buzzer beater against the
number one seed and have a great first half of
up forty five to twenty on on North Dakota State
who had won it two years and your your your
your buzzer beater. Yeah, okay, take me through what Take

(01:00:52):
me through what happened? I want you down to. We're
tie game UM and so I Max, wait, how much
time you got? Um? I think we get the ball
with fourteen seconds? Okay, No, I gotta Traditionally, uh no,
only if it's under four UM. Under four we call

(01:01:13):
time out. Anything over for your going? Okay, do they
have an automatic? You have an automatic or you just
calling calling in front of your bench. We have an automatic? Alright?
So um we get the ballot the hell? Yeah, there
you go. There's the automatic. So there's fourteen seconds. You're
going to the play at eight UM and and Max drives. Um,

(01:01:34):
it starts right, crosses it over, goes back left, and
Kevin's on the left block and Sneake cuts underneath the
rim and now you're on the right cut. So Max
puts up a shot right around the left hash mark
and it's bouncing around and I'm like, it may fall,
it may not. I'm not sure. You know what it's
like when you've seen so many games, you know the

(01:01:56):
ones that are going in, but I wasn't sure. So
this one rims out and Ko had sneak cut under
so he was on the inside of that defender over there,
and he reaches his hand up and tips it in
and uh, and I was I was ninety nine point
nine per cent certain. And when the uh, when when

(01:02:16):
the rest go over the monitor and then they get
look over at you and they do this, and it's
just it's elation, right, It's like thank goodness because the
reality is as you thought that the momentum would carry
you through day three, like I've always game ones the most,
but Game two is so pivotal you can't start thinking ahead. Uh.

(01:02:38):
And you start thinking ahead, we're gonna be in trouble
because you're like, oh, a game away from the n
C Double A tournament and and so I thought momentum
would carry us. Game three, we were up forty a
half on North Dakota State, played really well, and then
they come back and uh, we have to end up
getting a stop uh in order to winning it. Um.
But the only two teams that have won this league

(01:03:01):
since the tournament has moved to South Dakota, they have
last NAG Yeah and so we understood. I mean they
hear it constantly, like do you understand how good you
have to be in order to win a conference? There's
only two teams that have done it, and they just
have a mentality that we don't yet. So I felt
when we overcame that because they had been preached this

(01:03:23):
all year. I mean, you know how to win in March.
I mean we tell them that, we talk about that
way back in August, and we got a graphic that
we show once a week, this is how you went
in March and and and so I thought when we
overcame that because all you I mean, you're when you're
in a one big league, it's the conference tournament. And
I felt like that was such a weight uh off

(01:03:46):
of the players are like, we're sick of hearing you
talk about it so much, and uh and it's such
a joy for those guys to you know. I was
so happy for our players. I mean, our staff has
been involved in eighty one of these and c double
A tournament games. But you're just happy for your players
that they get the March madness experience. All right, so

(01:04:07):
you show you get done? Did you guys go back
to Tulsa you go neatly from the Dakotas to Oh yeah,
we we we we tried like crazy to get a
plane ticket home. So we took a ten hour bus
ride back. Um, they couldn't find any flights to get
back to Tulsa within a reasonable time period. Take a
ten hour of bus ride back and there are a

(01:04:29):
police escort is meeting four miles from campus. Uh, these
guys have never seen a police escort. You pull into
O or U and hundreds of people are there, cameras everywhere,
guys are walking off the bus, and you just realize like, oh,
this is a different experience, and you're just so happy
for your guys. And then immediately, so that's a Wednesday,

(01:04:53):
and they tell us you have to be in the
bubble on Saturday. Well, we had already had these plans
for the watch show on Sunday. You know that you're
already playing, and you're like, man, you have to get
here Saturday before the You don't even get to see
the selection show with your own family, Like you gotta
be that protected. And uh, sure enough, Um, that Saturday

(01:05:14):
morning at noon, you're on a plane and we were
checked in hotel rooms, quarantining at three o'clock. So you're
getting ready for Ohio State. And Uh, they're good. They're
impressive team. I saw him in the Big Ten tournament.
I call the thing. You know where you are the
week before. Um, what do you think it would take
for you guys to beat him one? UM? I honestly

(01:05:38):
believe you know. Max Ay Smiths is a leading score
in the country. Uh. He and Kevin are the best
duo in the country in regards to points production. Um,
we're number one in the country at making threes. We
make a little bit more than eleven a game. Um.
We're top fifteen at taking care of the ball and
uh and we're top twelve at shooting it right. Uh
make about thirty of our threes. Um. And so I thought, hey,

(01:06:01):
we need to put Kevin and Max in a whole
bunch of middle pick and roll. I think they're the
best tandeman in the country. UM. And and we've seen everything.
If you switch, if you hard hedge, um, if you
jam um and we we we've seen it all. And
so those guys kind of understand, uh, and the off
ball movement, guys understand what it is we're actually trying

(01:06:24):
to look for. And I just thought, like, if we'll
put these two in middle, pick and roll and we'll
take care of the ball and guys will play with
the level of confidence and belief. Um, I just I
just said, we'll get it done. So when it went
to overtime, when I say I looked in those guys eyes,

(01:06:44):
you could tell they were really confident. But you know,
it's what's interesting about though, is you talked about overtime.
You had to get one stop to get to overtime, right, Yeah,
I mean all all these games like everybody's killing the
Big ten, Like, look, they had their best perimeter player
at the ball, a chance to win the game, and
you guys gotta you held him to a really hard,

(01:07:04):
contested deep shot. And so what happened was was on
that shot you said, man, because you think they're gonna
drive it, right, you think they're gonna go get a
paint touch, and you're just really cautioning your guys not
to foul, and and you see that shot and you're

(01:07:25):
just like, oh, that's a tough one. Um, all right, Um,
let's let's be serious about getting the ball where it
needs to be and and make we take advantage of
these next five minutes given that we just got the
stop that we needed, and so it was almost like
you were resuscitated a little bit. Um, and it was like,

(01:07:48):
all right, we we've got to finish this opportunity here
and uh and we were fortunate that we did. Alright,
So then you're down eleven. Were less than tending against
Florida against Mike White. We travel around and and go
to camps and clinics with or whatever. Yeah, um, would

(01:08:10):
you what was the what was the adjustment you made
that help helped you come back on that thing? Yeah?
I mean down to eleven. I'm sitting over there, going
to I call a time out. I mean, is this
just like because the reality is is if I called
the time out, they're gonna switch defenses. I don't have
a magic play here. Um, I need our guys to

(01:08:32):
just stay fluid. You know, you're down five at the half.
So so so now it's it's turned into eleven, a
four possession game, and you're just thinking to yourself, like, Okay,
our guys, they have to understand one, we have to
do a better job on trade. Man. He he had
two threes to open up that lead, and so we

(01:08:55):
had to do some different things with our ball screen
coverage up top. So what do you do? Uh, put
two on him? Um. Before we were just going under
and he made us pay. And they were deep too,
I mean their NBA threes. And if you look at
the opening shot that he makes, it's a drag and
we go wonder he makes it? Um. And then to
start the second half, there's two of them and they're

(01:09:17):
back to back, and we said, we can't do that anymore. Okay,
So so when you put you on the ball on
the screen, now you gotta change rotations behind a little.
I mean they they had a guy um who couldn't
shoot threes um, or wouldn't shoot threes, and so we
just said, you have to stay in the paint and

(01:09:39):
we're gonna go put two on the ball, and you
got to get it out of tree Man's hands. Um.
And I mean, I don't know that we made it more.
We didn't make it more complicated than that. And then offensively,
did you make any any adjustments there? Um? Offensively, they
were switching defenses so much. Uh so they would go
back between the man and the three one. The only

(01:10:01):
thing that the DJ Weaver kid who hit the three
to to put us up eight to seventy eight, were
down one seventy seven with two minutes to play. Um,
we were getting good looks in the left corner and
DJ hadn't made a shot. He was over five, but
DJ Wever is a six ft eight really good shooter.
And I just looked at him and I said, DJ,

(01:10:22):
you're about to get a corner three here in the
left wing on this one three one, I need you
to make it. And he said, I got you. So
if you look at the film, you can see me
motioning one kid to get to the others. And I'm
telling DJ, we just come from the huddle. DJ, you're
supposed to be and I'm get there and you're sure enough.
Max gets in there, draws too, throws it to DJ

(01:10:45):
and you know what, he knocked that down. Uh. Can
I say a quick story, real quick? So I tell
this to what I've done, Uh the Oklahoma Coach Association clinic. Yeah,
munch different times and I and I've told this story
a couple of times. I go around the room message
and what's the what's the best thing about coaching? Right?

(01:11:06):
And I know if you gotta run and tell me
what's just like paper? Miss so I said, uh, you know,
what's what's the best thing about coaching? And they're all
you know, like the relationships and watching a kid grow.
It's like, that's all great. I'm not diminishing that. You want.
The best thing is when you practice something and you
showed the kids something, and you show them what and
then in the game the exact work you tell them

(01:11:28):
in the huddle and then you run it and not
only do they catch it where you told me to
catch it, they're open like you told them. They're open,
they shoot it like you told them, and then it
goes in the basket and everybody looks at you like
you're the smartest human being, iron right. That's that to me, honestly,
Like is the best is the I helped you and
then your skill took over, right, So that that had

(01:11:49):
to be a great rewarding moment. What's it like for
you though, when that ball goes to the basket and
all of a sudden you go from down to leven too,
You've gotta lead under two to go. Yeah, we better
get a stop, but we better not mess up this
trade man coverage um at all. And I mean, because
that's what you're worried about. I mean, guards win this
time of year, and I'm fortunate that that I basically

(01:12:11):
put five of them out there, um, because all of
them can shoot and so and so from that perspective,
it was, don't mess up this trade man coverage. If
we're gonna get beat get, let's get beat on it too.
Don't let him come off and go wonder and let
him kill us off of three. So like, let's be
really aggressive on the ball and let's make somebody else

(01:12:31):
make a play. And we ended up getting a turnover.
What's that feeling like when you see double zeros and
you're going to sweet sixteen? Yeah, I mean one, I'd
apologize that Chris Holtman and to Michael White, and both
of them were class acts. But you get so caught
up in the moment, right, Uh, player comes over and
immediately hugs you, and you forget like you have some responsibility, sportsmanship,

(01:12:55):
responsibilities to go acknowledge the other coach, and you just
is lose it, right, I Mean, there's a Mike was great.
He just come over and grabbed me and I said, Mike,
I'm so sorry. He said, I want you to know
I'm really happy for you. And Uh, I don't know
that I could do that, uh in that moment, and
it speaks volumes about Mike. But UM, I think I

(01:13:16):
think you're just again you're happy for your players, like
I mean when that, it's almost like you want your
guys to experience, just like you want your children to
have certain experiences. Um. I've had the experience of sweet sixteens.
You want your guys to have that experience. And so
from that perspective, UM, it's great. But I can tell

(01:13:38):
you if you lose as it's awful. It's brutal. Uh.
And so you're just you're really just I think for me,
I hate losing more than I like winning. I expect
to win. You pre prepared to win. I think we're
gonna do all the things. The losing I did not anticipate.
I didn't expect it. Um. And and I go to

(01:14:01):
depths uh that people shouldn't go to. Uh nothing, I
just meant, I stay up all night. It's brutal, it's agonizing.
And the problem with this is you don't like when
you do it during the season. It's all right, let's
figure this out so we can help our guys. This
it's over and Uh. And you don't want it to

(01:14:22):
be over with your players. UM. Okay, so you got Arkansas,
you played Arkansas, you let Arkansas at the half. What
do you have this time that you didn't do earlier
the season. Yeah. One, they're a different team. Um. I
mean they played certain guys that game that that they

(01:14:42):
don't play at all now. I mean there were multiple
guys who played thirty thirty plus in that game who
who get very little time now. So they're they're way different.
I tell you that we're way different to our third
leading score went down UM ten games ago. And and
so what it's happened is is Max has to be
more assertive. And we were playing Max about seventy thirty

(01:15:04):
on ball off the ball at that time. Well now
it's one on ball. Uh. And so where where we're different? Uh?
And I also think we understand how people approach us,
how people attack us, like we've seen it. Um. You know,
we we played the third toughest nonconference schedule in the country.
All five nonconference opponents went to the n C Double

(01:15:26):
A tournament. You know, down five lose by five, Oklahoma
State lose by five to which saw State UM at
a twelve point leading the second half against Arkansas and
you lose that game. And so I can tell you
that that, Um, there was nobody who was happy about that,
because we realized these are the areas we needed to
tighten up. And it came at a really good time
for us because it was right before Christmas. So when

(01:15:47):
our guys got back, um, that was fresh, but they
had days off, so they were mentally fresh, and so
we knew the areas we needed to clean up in
order to win games like that. And and I think
those things are what's going to really help us. Um. Okay,
there's there's a there's a bunch of that's really good

(01:16:10):
on the court at the Baby Center. I believe it
still says expect a miracle, right, it does on the baseline. Yeah, okay, uh,
I don't. It wasn't miracle those two games that you won.
They weren't miraculous, right, Those aren't miracles. No, But I'd
still say to an outsider looking in considering what you
took over the league you're in, what you're up against

(01:16:33):
in terms of financial resources, you know, comparison to your competition,
it would be fairly miraculous to get oral Roberts to
a final four. Have you have you allowed yourself? You said,
you just told me that. Like, hey, the hard part
of the three games is the second game, right where
you start thinking, how have you have you allowed yourself?

(01:16:53):
At least the possibility that two games away from taking
Oral Roberts to a final four, you know what? Honest
to goodness. Um, after Ohio State, I had no idea
who we were playing. I was like, who's on the
other side of the bracket, Like who is it? And
they was like Virginia Tech Florida And I was like,
well who one. Uh. I was like are they any
good because you're not the same like yeah, yeah, so yeah,

(01:17:15):
so I I didn't I didn't even know. Um. After
the Florida game, I'm like, well, who do we play now?
And they were like, well, Texas Tech Arkansas. Like, honest
to goodness, I just realized because Scott and I were
together yesterday. Um, I didn't even know they were in
the South. I didn't even know we were in the
same region. Uh. And so I didn't know because I

(01:17:39):
was following Grant. I didn't know that if they won,
they played Baylor. But it never clicked that, oh, they're
on the same side as us. Uh, because you honestly
I am. I'm not a multitasker. I'm a focus guy,
and I get locked in on something and I can
tell you the whole world can just disappear. I don't

(01:17:59):
pay attention to much else. And but now I'm aware
that it's Baylor Villa Nova. But it's not as quick
a turnaround. Right when you get the seating announcement on
Sunday and you're like when you play Friday night and
you know you got to present a scout to your
guys on Tuesday, you go through every single game O,
how State played, and you're clipping it, You're staying up,

(01:18:22):
so you're not even aware of anything else. And then
you're just here's the game playing guys, here's the game plan.
So when that one's over, then you stand up all
night getting ready for Florida and you're just going, going, going, going,
And so you're not even aware. So now yesterday we
were off, um and now so now you've got a
little bit of time to kind of have an idea.

(01:18:42):
So so how do you manage conditioning? Um, well, we
played back to back game, so our guys are great. Um,
they just played Obviously, Saturday night Kevin and Max played
eighty five minutes, so they never came out, played forty
five minutes ut Ohio State four minutes against both of
them against Florida. So yesterday we're off. We will do

(01:19:05):
here in about an hour. Uh, we'll do a really
light workout. They'll lift, Um, we'll do about forty five minutes. Uh,
they'll get up and down a little, but like five on. Oh,
and then you got to guard the scout team and transition. Um,
like we'll probably do about twelve minutes of that and
then about thirty five forty minutes of shooting and then
so today won't be much. So in essence, they get

(01:19:28):
two days and then um get Wednesday and Thursday. Uh,
those will be hard, Friday will be light, and then
you play Saturday night. Pretty pretty great. Well listen, um,
pretty humble beginnings. Obviously you're still a pretty humble guy.
Did you get the clothes wash that you needed? Maybe
later when when you and I started this, they hadn't

(01:19:49):
been here, and so and that no socks, no wonder
Shirt's not gonna tell you what else I don't have. Um,
so this is the same thing I wore yesterday. Good
thing that we were off yesterday and I didn't have
to leave the hotel room. Uh, that's that was a plus,
that's like. And so the clothes have shown up, so
so I'm I'm looking forward to put it in on

(01:20:09):
fresh clothes. They arrived about thirty minutes into this. Well. Uh,
it's been an amazing story. I can't wait to see
what you got in store force for Saturday. And it's you.
You've dedicated a lot of your time to join me.
And I really appreciate Doug. You're the best man best
honestly goodness, if there was a Logal Hall of Fame,
you'd be in it. We're ending on that all. I

(01:20:35):
thought you, I thought you didn't appreciate that one, enjoyed
that one. It was a long when it was a
good one. And I love that recruiting pitch. I'd rather
have two more guys and two more plays. It's pretty
good solid. I know they're both right. Rather both rather
have a couple of Go twos automatics gadgets that both.
But it's pretty interesting what's happened with Scott Drew now

(01:20:55):
producing Grant mccaslan. They won a game and Paul Mills
was won two games, and they're starting to that that
little crew, which is very tight and but very enjoyable
to be around, is doing an incredible job in Texas,
in Oklahoma. And I'll be interested to see if if
Jerome Tang ends up taking a job. You know, Paul

(01:21:17):
just said he priced himself out of all Roberts. That's fine,
Paul got himself a job. It's pretty cool stuff. Meanwhile,
you can listen to The Doug Otlip Show daily three
or six Eastern twelve three Pacific on Fox Sports traded
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you like this podcast, we'll make sure you subscribe. You
download your rate, write a review, write a review, Come on,
you canet how long's it take? And tweeted out send

(01:21:39):
it to a friend, Say, man, you might want to
listen to some really really good stuff. Thanks for so
much the positive feedback. Love it, Thank my thanks to
Paul Mills. I'm Doug Gottliebin. This is all ball Upper