Former Cowboys WR Jesse Holley on McCarthy's Future, Areas for 2021 Improvement, 2020 Blame

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, boys and girls, Welcome in to the Boys and
Girl Podcast with Cowboys, NFL Network reporter Jane Slater and
NFL Network producer Bobby Bell, a Cowboys community with the
inside scoop on the Dallas Cowboys now coming straight to
you from the lone Star State. Here's Jane and Bobby

(00:29):
touchdown Jackson right up the middle, thirty seven yard run
on fourth and two. Too many times for ship over
and over the Dallas they just give up gaps, they
don't get off blocked. How many times have we seen
that too? They just nobody there. I would say our
finish was not good enough, clearly, definitely in spots during
a game for the Baltimore touchdown, and he could not

(00:50):
have been more wide open that. There's a lot of
guys who have to take a hard look at themselves
and asked what their efforts like. We're disappointed to make
no balls about it, and that's all part of the
focus movement forward, and so we prepare for Cincinnati. Your
effort has to be there. It's nonnegotiable. On the greechective
side of the ball, especially the running game. We're not
executing right now. We're not good at stopping the run.
I mean, you can't. You can't not be frustrated. I

(01:14):
think if you aren't frustrated, yeah, you don't get me. Yea.
I know everyone in this in this locker room and
this building's frustrated. Easy money, That's what that game was

(01:35):
on the road against the Ravens for the Cowboys sitting
at three and nine, there's four games left. That's the
silver lining, guys. But as we talk about easy money,
it's easy talking with our next guest. We we told
you for the Cowboys community, we hope that this is
a place where we can talk through what's going on
this season, and we have certainly done that with Jesse

(01:58):
Holly here today. Bobby, Yeah, excited to have him on. Uh.
He is the of course, as you've you mentioned later on,
he's he's the former roommate of Dez Bryant. Now, there
were a lot of heartbroken people. We didn't get to
see Dez Bryant. That was the one thing I was
looking forward to this year in the COVID year. I
was like, we're gonna get Dez Bryant. But that didn't happen.
So we got the next best thing. We got Jesse

(02:20):
Holly to to do a therapy session with us and
and talk through all the ills of the Dallas Cowboys
and and whether or not the big question I think
everybody's asking right now is Mike McCarthy. The man for
this job. Joining us now is former Dallas Cowboys receiver
Jesse Holly. You can follow him on Twitter at Mr
fourth and long and the fourth is with an actual

(02:41):
number four. Uh. Jesse also contributes to the large circus
of Dallas Cowboys dot com podcasts that are up to
like twenty now for the week. But Jesse's involved there
and you can check him out there. And uh, he's
also going to talk to us today not only about
where the Cowboys are at, but also a great charity

(03:02):
that he founded and uh that helps provide a good
Christmas for uh needy kids this time of year. Jessee,
how you doing. I'm wow man oh manes almost over. Um,
Jesus Christ. I'm good. I really am. I've just not
me lock on wood. I've avoided all of the things

(03:26):
that could be happening in what the world that we
live in today. UM still employed, I'm healthy and on
top of them. This side of the dirt. Life's life,
you guys, know me, man, I'm always positive, happy, go
lucky dude, and so I like to spread that. And
you know, I wanted to exude off of me. So
I'm great now, see I do we do know you.

(03:46):
And so one of the things you talked about with
us last time, which was back last October November, I think,
uh and you had mentioned there you talked about how
you weren't admitted germophobe, and uh, so I'm curious. I
haven't had a chance to ask you. How have you
dealt with coronavirus era? No, this is right up my alley,
like this is this is like Jay and you and

(04:07):
I worked at the same station before, not at the
same time, but the same station. And I used to
get hell from guys because I was sprang off mics
and wiping surfaces down long before COVID got here. I
was the guy who was like, you know, hey, I'm
not fist. I was fist bumping, like you know, I'll
be at the state and whatever. I'm like, hey, fish bump,
fish bump, not shaking hands, don't know where your hand's been.

(04:28):
And they used to give me hell about that. And
now everybody's like, oh, wash your hands. No, shaking hands,
slice off this, and I'm like, oh, I've been ahead
of the game years before y'all jumped on the band wagon.
I knew. I'm not saying I knew COVID was coming,
but I knew. I knew to make sure. In the
business that we work in, we're in the people business,

(04:48):
so we're around people all day long, and I know
how that stuff jumps from person to person. So I've
been well ahead of the game. This is right up
my alley. I just can't find stuffing I normally used
because everybody's hoarding it from, you know, from the store.
Light soul Lightsoul White's hands in a tiger. So listen,
I've been ahead of the game for a long long time.
I love that you no longer feel like an outlier

(05:09):
in that space. And to your point, look at us
both thriving after getting getting footed from the fan. I
want to listen. I saw how J J. Barea, you know,
he got fired and he got two million dollars. I know.
I'm like, damn, Gavin Spinel hooked me up. You should
have gave me a you know, parting gre for something.
You just fired me, man, you just let me, you know,
we're doing. We're doing fantastic. Thank those guys fall opportunity

(05:32):
that he gave me there. But yeah, we're doing, We're doing,
I'm doing. I'm doing just fine. You know you are
doing just fine because, as Bobby said, you contribute to
so many shows because I think you have such a
unique perspective. The fact that you really grinded to earn
a spot on that Cowboys roster, it meant something to you.
You were also there for coaching change from a bird's

(05:55):
eye view, and I know you still talk to guys
in the organization. What do you make of this season
and the coaching staff. It's it's difficult, It's it's difficult,
and it's like the changing of relationships. Um. I always
tell like, you know, if you're entering your new relationship,

(06:18):
don't make the dude or the chick, I should say chick.
Don't make the dude or the girl paid back taxes. Right,
So whatever happened in that previous relationship, don't don't make
me paid back taxes for what he did. That's not
me and I shouldn't make you pay back taxes for
what But the thing is is that it's inevitable that
the residue of prior relationships will be there until you

(06:43):
either have a chance to flush it all out or
to find someone who is completely compatible to you without
the other stuff. And so I think that's what you're
looking at in this situation, is you're seeing here it
is and football is all about being hands on like
most coaches and across the National Football Lague. There's exceptions,

(07:07):
but they aren't modern day zoom. You know, let's do
things technical, and they're not used to that. They're used
to say, hey, I got these XS and os, and
I need to see and be a part of a
tangible situation where I'm physically being able to touch guys
or put guys on the field to to to implement

(07:28):
my situation. And here it is. You're talking about coming
into a franchise where you are ever really prepared to
deal with all that Dallas brings until you're sitting in
the seat and that seat is hot from Jump Street.
It's not like hey, we're coop. No no no, no,
no no. When you jump into this frying pan, it's

(07:49):
like cast iron skillet. It's already blazing, and people want
immediate results, positive results, and so it's one of those
situations where Mike McCarthy and his crew came into a
situation that I promise you, I promise you he had
no idea what he was truly getting into. And then
now he's here and and and you're trying to implement

(08:12):
things and systems and beliefs and all this kind of stuff.
And I guarantee you Mike wasn't used to doing that
all off season via soom right, and then you finally
I finally get a chance to touch the players and
to kind of really get around them. And I got
four weeks. I got four weeks to uh, implement what

(08:34):
I want to implement. See it, like, actually see it.
The pool of players around the league is dried up.
I can't bring guys in because protocols and so on
and so forth. Oh, by the way, I have to
evaluate and build a roster in four weeks and and
still implement an offensive defense and a special teams and
get ready for a week one of the season. And

(08:55):
so all these things are happening, and I'm doing it
under this my echel scope of being the head coach
of the world's most recognizable franchise. So you add all
that to the mixed man, it has been, you know,
and then each week it's a new story. Right, oh
what my quarterbacks going up, my left tackles gone, my

(09:16):
right tacle is gone, and all of a sudden, guys
can't play football. And you're you're trying, you're trying to
literally as fast as you're trying to get the water
out of the boat, someone else is drilling more holes
into your boat every single week, and you're drowning, and
you're drowning, and you're waiting for a moment for it

(09:36):
all to stop, and it doesn't. It doesn't because every
three or four letter network, you want to put what's
on the A block, Dallas Cowboys, What's on the B block,
Dallas Cowboys. And now I'm trying to I'm trying to
get a team together and COVID and games are being
canceled and players are being hurt, and I'm trying to
shovel this water, shovel this water, shovel this water. And

(09:57):
it's who more holds more, holds, more holds more holes models.
So it's it's been a it's been a huh an experienced,
to say the least. I want to follow up before
Bobby jumps in what does it take for a coach
to endear himself to a player? In other words, we're
seeing in other places that have had similar challenges. I've

(10:18):
referenced Ron Rivera with Washington. We're finally seeing it with
Joe Judge and the Giants. I was really impressed with
the way players talked about and bought into Kevin Stefanski
when I recently did the Browns Titans game. So mhmm,
you saw my report, you know, week four, guys, we're

(10:39):
checking out what could Mike have done or have you
talked to some guys yourself have done better to endear
himself to these guys. When you talk about the new
age athlete, you talk about guys who who need I

(11:02):
don't want to use the word friendship, but I want
to use the word that, Um, I you have to
feel like you and I are on the same page.
It's not a friendship because that that's the that's the
wrong terminology to use. But I think what Mike, he
has to do a better job of appearing to be

(11:26):
vulnerable to his players, appearing to be a guy who
understands his players. UM, and then try and that that's
the that's the best way about going about this is
being able to encapsulate this sort of friendship that yes,

(11:49):
I'm your superior at my your boss, but I'm rowing
with you. You know what I'm saying. I think that's
what Rob Rivera gives up everyone. I'm talking about Rob Rivera.
Everybody loves you feel the man and about Ron Rivera,
Like you feel like Ron Rivera. I can go and
talk to him and it's a conversation and it's not
it's not a chastisement. Um. He expects a lot of you, uh,

(12:11):
but he's also willing to give himself. And I think
those are the type of thing that players in. That's
what becomes more appealing and more revealing too players and
gets them to, you know, play a little bit harder
for you. You know. The word that one of the
players used, uh in Cleveland was he vibes with us.

(12:38):
That's the young person terms. What I thought about that,
I was like, I would love to be in a
room when players felt like they were vibing with Vike McCarthy,
because I don't know, like you feel like you catch
a vibe from that rule you catch a vibe maybe
from Joe Judge. Although I've heard he's a little tricky. Uh,
you catch a vibe with Sean Payne right like Shawn's

(13:00):
got like the boom boxes in the lock boat machine.
He's tapping up players and he's did I don't get
it leaked that he did a watermelon smash to get
players height, but yet also told us that week that
what happens in player meetings stay in player meetings. But
it was okay for us to find out about him

(13:20):
smashing watermelons, and I thought was interesting. So I was
just kind of curious your take on how did Jason
Garrett vibe with guys, because I never heard there were
guys that didn't get along with Jason Garrett over the years,
but I never got the sort of pushback that I've
heard with this group. I've always said this about Jason Garrett,

(13:43):
and I've never I've never. I never vibed, and a
lot of people never vibe with Jason Garrett as a coach.
But I understood and vibe with Jason Garrett as a man.
And so if if I can talk to you and
come to you as a man, there's this level of respect,

(14:05):
even if I don't mutually agree with everything you do
as far as coaching, not everybody is able to separate
the two, right. It's like sometimes everybody just that you
you have that you just throw all one thing in
the pot, just just this gumbo style things. And if
I don't like his policies, and I don't like this,
and I don't like that, and if everything is all

(14:25):
jumbled in it, and and and maturity allows you to
be able to say, hey, I may not agree with
everything and how you do things here, but boy do
I respect you over here. And that kind of almost
lends for you to at least listen to the things
that you may not always agree with. And the thing
that Jason had also, especially early in his career, he

(14:49):
had a good mix. He had a good mix of
um evets that were kind of being ushered on the
way out with the with the younger group and we
you've talked about that. You've gotta talk about that a
lot of times. Where with Tony it was like Tony
didn't catch the vibe with Zeke and all the rest
of the gods. He was like, you know, yeah, you
guys want to do what what is that you listen to?

(15:10):
And Tony's like, I can't quite you know, But vibe
a quite there, and so there was this disconnect, There
was this, There was this and it's kind of almost
like that that that wave that was a younger wave
have now become the elder stakesman in the locker room,
and their vibe is different. And then you bring in
this coach, and I think and Mike McCarthy, who is

(15:32):
more old school, right, he's more of the he's he's
cut from that old school cloth. And so again, even
the whole Zoom situation thing for him is like a
new battle. I remember, Um, I get a chance to
speak to the rookies every single year, and he jumped
on the Zoom call about ten minutes beforehand, and he
and I had a chance to just just chop it up,

(15:54):
you know, just just chop it up. And one of
the things that he said, he said, I hate this.
I hate this because I hate this because this doesn't
give them a chance two to impact. And when when
players don't get a chance to to align with your
vision and your vision aligned with those players, there's this

(16:16):
disconnect and and and there's this fight. Now. I don't
think it's all Mike. Some of these players that that
you know, we talk about the brands. Some of these
guys aren't holding up their into the bargain and it's
just making for just an absolute cluster f of a

(16:37):
mess that we've seen through twelve weeks of the season.
Real quick, did you vibe with him with who with
Mike and your interaction? Yeah, I mean we were ten
minutes and it was what he was saying about how
he wanted to implement respect. And you know, because he
I asked him, I said, coach, normally, I don't get
a chance to you know, when I was there with Jason.
Jason never came into those meetings when I was there

(16:58):
and speaking, he was like, well, I want to make
sure I show guys about respect. This is you're a
guest in my house and this is my house, and
so I want to make sure I come and pay
you respect and let these guys know like, you know, hey,
if coaches here ten minutes before, you should be here
tim before. And I was like, I'm with that because
there's a lot there's a level of just you know,
some guys just kind of don't kite understand that. And

(17:20):
sometimes it would be so here's another meeting that we
have to sit in again on a Tuesday, Oh my god.
And it was like, no, this is someone who's coming
to speak to you, who's set in your seats, and
you should pay him the respect you should give him.
You should give him the respect that you would give
me because he's here as our guest, you know. And
so that that was a good situation that we vibed

(17:40):
on it. And it was early talks of how he
wanted things to go for that team, and so you know, yeah,
I vide with him. You know, we we've drawn this
comparison a little bit here in terms of, you know,
maybe how difficult the transition has been for guys with
UM Jason Garrett's leadership style, the way Jason Garrett I mean,

(18:00):
for all of Jason Garrett's fault, I think most everybody
in that locker room felt like Jason Garrett at least
cares about me on a level that like transcends football,
Like I connect with this guy as as sort of
a a fatherly figure or a respect figure. UM. But
outside of just that one transition, I think when you
look across the position groups, you know and are very
close with John Kittner and the way John kitten operates

(18:21):
on the way John kitten connects with people. We know
the way Christo Shard tried to connect with guys and
tried to reach guys. Rod Marrinelli was that way. Um
Mark Colombo was one of the guys. Mark Columbo was
basically hand picked by the offensive line is this is
the guy we want in the room with us. And
so when you look across the board at all these
different types of coaches, Gary Brown, who you know it

(18:41):
was like dad to the running backs group, and you
look at how all these coaches throughout the entire coaching
staff reached these guys. Do you think that with or
without zoom, just the unique makeup of last year's staff
and how many guys were about the person, even on
the assistant coach level, that there was going to naturally

(19:01):
be a little bit of an uncomfortable curve. I guess
that that you know, this isn't every single guy at
every single position group pretty much had somebody who tried
to reach them as people. And that's not necessarily the
norm across you know, all position coaches. And so do
you do you think there was naturally going to be
this you know, growing pains for everybody at every position group,
Like man, this guy doesn't. I don't connect with him

(19:23):
the way you know Rod Mary I did with Rod
Mirrinelli who wanted me to look up historical figures, or
Gary Brown who took us to get barbecue and things
like that. Do you think that was naturally going to
be something that was tough to get over? And do
you think they have the capacity to get over it?
Um to answer, yes, And that's what That's what anything man,
that that's what that transition. A lot of these guys

(19:44):
grew up with Gary Brown, A lot of these guys
grew up with Rod Mirrinelli, with Jason Garrett. Literally from pups,
your pups when you came into the league four or
five years ago, and and these men helped raise you.
So when you talk about a Zeke and Gary Brown,
that he was a pump, you know, and it was like,

(20:07):
come on, pup, let's go. And and it was he
was there for all those moments. You know, he was
there when Zeke was getting in trouble and and hey,
what's up? Are you good? You know what I'm saying,
not forget football? Are you good? Right? And it's like
Mark Colombo is like, yo, let's let's go get a
couple of beers, and these are pumps, right, Zack and

(20:27):
all that they were pumps. And so you get a
chance to grow with these guys. And naturally, when you
look at what let's look at the college perspective, universities
don't get five star recruits, right, Texas isn't why someone
goes to Texas. It's the coach that comes in. It's

(20:50):
it's the coach that comes sits in his living room
that he connects with that just so happens to be
at Texas. Now, yeah, Texas is the place that you
want to go. But if that, you know, if the
coaching vibe isn't there, I'm vibing over here at Alabama.
You see what I'm saying. And so all of these
guys grew up, the guys that we're talking about. Your
your latent vander esh is, your Jalen's and your your

(21:14):
your your your Zack's. All these guys grew up with
the guys that you were just standing in that old regime.
And then it's over all right, So help me out
with that, because I think Bobby knows exactly where I'm
gonna go. Well before Jesse about guys that wanted to
come to Dallas because of coach McCarthy and those are

(21:37):
the same guys, Everson Griffin, it shifted out. What do
you make of that? Yeah, you know what it happens,
right you. You think you want to come somewhere, and
then you get there and and and it's it's the
grass isn't greener. It happens all across the league. Um,
you know, look up, look up in Seattle. You know

(21:59):
they gave up a lot for what they got for
Jamal Adams, and while they're they still have one of
the worst deepenses in the league. It's you. You you
have this one thought process in your mind where I
want to go, when I want to do this, and
then you actually get there and it's not what you
thought and things look a little bit different. And there
is a dynamic that people jay you. You've been all

(22:22):
around this league and you've covered many locker rooms. There's
a dynamic in Dallas that people just don't understand. And
then you get here and it's like, oh no, no,
this you see this. It's not this little cubby hole
that you are in Minnesota. Right. This is everybody's talking
about you now, and some people just can't handle that

(22:43):
type of exposure, criticism, whatever it may be, and it
doesn't just it doesn't work out sometimes. Do you think
that hurt this year a little bit? In other words,
it felt like they brought in a lot of They
were a lot more active in free agency, and I remember,
you know, Bobby and I we were working our heads.
It was like, look at the Cowboys are so active
in free agency. They're getting Don Terry Poe, Gerald McCoy,

(23:04):
Everson Griffin, Alden Smith. We hadn't seen him be that
active with some of like the bigger name free agents
had been for the most part, kind of guys that
had been journeyman in the league, because those guys are
so used to doing things elsewhere. Do you think that
that made uh, it ruined the pH balance in the
locker room, like it got a little acidic because these

(23:25):
guys weren't used to certain things they were. You know,
we even saw it with Michael Bennett a little bit
last year. Not saying that Michael Bennett was bad for
the team. I actually thought he was good for the team.
I mean he checked me one day in the locker
room and I was like, respect um. But because so
many of those pups were homegrown and they were used
to one way. Do you think the Cowboys in the

(23:45):
future you need to be a little bit more careful
about what they bring. And it's like, you know what
a fish take, you can only bring certain fish don't mix,
and then they start killing off the other fish. And
you know what used to be like a very thriving
fish take and aquarium in your house is all of
a sudden things are dying. That's I honestly feel like
there was something off a little bit this year because
of some of that. How many how many arguments have

(24:08):
you guys had on Twitter throughout the years when God's like,
especially with Dallas Cowboys fans, it's always get him, get him,
get him, hit it, And I'm like, that just may
not fit here. And people fail to realize just how
important messing guys and fitting guys together. And one of
the things that is going to have to happen with

(24:29):
this group is you're gonna have to see some of
those guys getting weeded out. And that's that's the hard
part about bringing veterans into your program. Veterans are set
in their ways, all veterans especially they've been somewhere else
for a long amount of time and had success like
Pro Bowls, All Pros, Super Bowls, and they were just

(24:53):
like Jags on that team, they were actually key contributors.
And then they come to a situation and it's like
do what I am? You know who I am? And
so now you're trying to you have you have I'm
just gonna use these names. Right, you have Everson Griffin
who comes in from right ZIM system up in up
in UH Minnesota. And then you bring a guy like

(25:15):
Don Terry Poe, who we found out just whose heart
wasn't even in it, who talked about him possibly retiring before. Right.
So now you've got Everson Griffin, you got Don Terry Poe,
and now you have these other guys who who built
their names and their attitudes under Jason Garrett, and you
have them all in the locker room all trying to
because honestly, all the offensive guys have been here that

(25:37):
you right, all those guys have been here. It's all
the defensive guys who you were trying to bring all
these pieces in and it's like, you know, well, who
is the voice we talked about? When Michael Bennett came,
I was like, wait, you've been here for a couple
of coffee, and you're leading the charge of the locker
room now. But that's Michael Bidet. If you know Michael
bid It, I don't care what room Michael Bennett goes into.
He's gonna be alpha dog. And if and he's not,

(25:58):
he has no problem being a snippy alpha dog if
he's been there five years or five minutes. And so
you're bringing in all these different personalities with a new
coach and everybody trying to figure this thing out. But
everybody's trying to also plant their flag as if I'm
the alpha male, here's how I do it. Look at
me and the pH balance, you know, and you're absolutely right,

(26:21):
it's it's off because that is the danger of when
you're building of team and when you don't have an
off season, because all these things get out in the
off season. When you got O T A S and
mini camps, you can look around, you can go that
ain't that this is you know that don't smell too good?
That you know make way that don't this ain't jeling

(26:42):
the way I thought it would jail. But when you
don't have O T A S Mini camps, guys are
just guys. Being around you, you can tell that thing
ain't kind of mentioned and now you can make necessary
change before you go into training camp or be looking
for those pieces while you're in training camp. When guy
get let go to kind of bring in to to
build your to build your roster, it was hey, listen, guys,

(27:05):
here's what we got is what we need. Let's go
And it was like, and it's it's it's why we're
looking at three and nine right now. And we we
make that point. We talk about where the Cowboys front
office may have aired and where this coaching staff may
have may have had their issues, and you know, lord knows,
we've talked a lot about where the players have their
issues in terms of you know, busting coverages and things

(27:27):
like that. But to look at it a little more psychologically,
I guess when you look at is there a possibility
that there's a little bit of the the step parent
dynamic here that like we talked about like, okay, here's
you're not my mom, you're not my position, coach, you're
not my person. How much of the onus needs to
be on the players to have like receptive hearts to change, Like, dude,

(27:50):
you can be upset about it all you want. This
is your reality now, and you need to be willing
to you know, have a teachable heart. With this new
coaching staff. We're talking about entitled spoiled athletes. There are
there are plenty of them. There's a whole lot of
and I'm and and again that's my brotherhood, right I

(28:11):
come from that. I come from that we're talking about.
And we're talking about entitled spoiled athletes. By the way,
who was able to get away with murder in the past,
who was able to loaf? Who was able to we've
heard play hero ball, to be out of alignment and

(28:32):
assignment and still show up on Sunday and get their
starting job. So again, this is the culture that was
built prior to Mike McCarthy getting here. And then now
when guys get here, what what what do you wanna
tell me? Bobby? I make five million dollars a year,
I make eight million dollars a year. I make twelve, fifteen, eight,

(28:52):
twenty million dollars a year. Bobby, do what Now? Here's
what I'm gonna do because I know, at the end
of the day, if you let me go, I'll find
him to the team. But boy, am I'm will be
a big hit of your cap. So do you think
these guys don't know that? You think ages don't they
know these things? And I've been in I remember being
in Cincinnati, and I won't name the player's name, but

(29:15):
I remember a player telling the coach, I make nine
million dollars what they're gonna do to me? And that's
the honest of God truth. See, it's funny you say that.
I won't name the names or the team, but I
know a story in recent years where a player started
to fill himself after they got paid and there was

(29:35):
an incident at practice. Coach sends them home, comes back
the next day for treatment, thinking they're going to go
back to practice. Coach calls him to the office, literally
checks them, and it reminds them that they make more money,
they've spent more time, and they're not going anywhere. And
the attitude of said player changed real quick. I don't

(29:56):
think we've ever seen a coach do that in Dallas,
be because they know they can go over the coach's
head and go right to the principal's office. You know
one of those players you and I one of my
favorite conversations that you had out in a fear. Remember
when we were at what is it a front porch
in Dallas? We went to a restaurant and I was

(30:17):
fascinated just learning your backstory, which I want to get into.
And we talked about your charity that I didn't even
know about, but about how you were roommates with Does
Bryant and obviously doesn't I have like become friends of
your Bobby's got to know him. And there's a really
endearing side two Deaz, but there's also a side that
can be very difficult, very emotional, and coddled by that organization.

(30:43):
Do you think des would have benefited from more tough
love and not being able to go over the coach's
head because as Jerry said it, he said he had
a heart for death, but he was a pain in
the ass, right. But they But that's that's that's you
building an angry dog and upset that it beat you.

(31:06):
Mm hmm. You think that's you think that's what got
away with that? You you know Sean Payton really well,
do you think that's what done any of this? Under
Sean Payton? I'll be curious away with his Twitter tirade
with John Hardball because John is another one. So I'll
take you guys back when remember Robert was Robert meat

(31:27):
Chum Tennessee receiver. He was drafted in the first round
by the Saints, and we were having a joint practice
New England and New Orleans in Foxborough and Robert dropped,
I mean a don dropped it and Sean Payton, this

(31:49):
is your first round pick. This is this is the
golden child. Sean Payton laid into Robert Meetcham and he
told he was like, you think that bulls is acceptable,
I will ship your back to whatever the help. I mean,
this is your first round pick. And he laid into
him to the point where it was like, I'm talking

(32:11):
about screen. We're gonna live ones one v one and
he is laying into Robert Meetchum, right, and I'm saying,
like I've been in the locker room where I look
at a guy like Gronk, Right, when do we see
Gronks antics in the off season. We don't see him.

(32:32):
We'll see him August and February. Why Because Bill didn't
play that. So there are certain guys who Bill, lets
you know, day one, here's what it is. Saw. Let
you know day one, here's what it is. Here's what
it is. What a guy like Daz des Des benefits
from stern, strict discipline. That's when death at his best.

(32:58):
If you let DEAs beat Daz, you are in for
your your You are now controlled by the roller coaster.
So when Daz is, when Das is good days, you
have a great practice. When Dad decides to say f y'all,
well just know it's gonna be fy off of this
whole day and now you have to deal with that.
So so you bring up something interesting there. And I

(33:21):
just want to go to the psychology because you know,
a lot of us that cover the team and fans,
we've got questions because we talked about feels like the
pH balance and whatnots off. When you hear some of
the comments that the players have made this year, they've
been a lot better about you know, we don't have
locker room access, so you don't get a lot out
of them. It's on zoom calls. But some of the

(33:41):
things that they have said have been curious. And it's
hard to really deep dive with some of these guys
because Mike has has told them not to talk to
the media. Keep it in the house. But when you
hear some of the stuff that started at the beginning
of the year, and what we heard today are those
guys that sound like they're respecting this coaching staff. Are

(34:04):
we reading too much into it? I'm just curious. No,
I think. I think I like to call it self preservation.
When everything starts to go bad, I gotta start saying,
now what it ain't me? And I started, I gotta
start trying to showing you like I'm giving you the cheese.
I'm giving you these little cheese bits where I want

(34:24):
you to go and and and follow that. And it's like, well,
don't come look at me, don't you know? I um
antoine woods. For the life of me, I don't understand
why he did this. He made the post of the
picture of I haven't got one of these triple teams
since high school. You know what that said to me?

(34:47):
That said to me, Hey, now it's the bums behind
me that's not getting it done. I mean, I'm eating
up these blockers for the guys on the second level
you can put out I don't you can put all
the ha ha ha faces you want on that. To me,
that says self preservation while the ship is sinking. I
want y'all to know that this three yard performance that

(35:11):
we gave up, well look at here, I'll be I'll
be a triple team. And so it's these little things
that everyone now is because the losing is happening, and
it's happening. It's it's a rapid pace. It's a freaking
bad pace. Everyone's now is like kind of almost scrapping
of saying and cold word it ain't me, like h

(35:32):
it's it's it's him, it's that, it's it's it's the scheme.
It's it's no that that everyone now is a self
preservation mode, trying to save themselves from this ship, this
sinking ship, and there's not enough life raps on this thing.
Can it be fixed? In other words, do you think
that this group, given the challenge of the season and

(35:55):
the whole it's not me, it's them, it's not all
of us, Like look at the coach. Can this team
figure it out with this coach? Or are we going
to see more of the same next year? I think?
Or is there going to be a next year if
they lose out and go three and thirteen? Is there
a next year for Mike McCarthy. There has to be
right like if they if they lose the final four

(36:17):
games the way they did against Washington, it's got to
be bad. But if they lose the final four, like
they get blown out by twenty including by the Bengals,
who are right, that might do it if they fire,
they fire Mike McCarthy, that that's egg on the face
of Jerry Jones, because everybody's gonna then say, well, you
only you kind of you. You play Kate to the
Rooney rule by having a cup of coffee with Marvin

(36:40):
Lewis and then you hire really the first guy that
you talked to, Mike McCarthy. So that that that's that's
almost egg in the face on Jerry and Stephen for
I guess not doing their complete due diligence of looking
at guys like Matt Rule and Lincoln Riley and and
so on and so forth. So I highly no, I
don't know, and this is so anything is liable to happen.

(37:01):
UM highly do that they fired Mike McCarthy. I think
there needs to be an overhaul, um of guys. You
you you gotta as a coach. You're already seeing that.
Can they afford it? Though? Jesse, I mean we're talking
about trying to get Dack signed. You've got what thirteen

(37:22):
guys on I are Bobby Cap likely going down a
little bit next year? Um? Yeah. There. The problem is
clearly defense. How does Mike Nolan survive? I know that
that is Mike's guy. I feel like Mike has been
in defense of him, despite his own players. I was

(37:42):
just wonder Mike survives. Mike McCarthy been around the league
long enough, though, I mean, he seems pretty like we
hear so many no non sense answers from him, like
when your report came out and he said, you know what,
these are the things that happen when you have losing football.
I think Mike McCarthy has been around long enough that
at the Jones Kevin and say, dude, Mike Nolan's gotta go.
I think he kind of goes man. That's that's the
us of being as bad as we were. I get it.
I'm not happy, but I get it. I said this,

(38:04):
and I said this jokingly, but I was dead serious Mike,
and I'm not defity Mike McCarthy. Mike did what a
lot of us would do. I would do, you would do,
right is I got into a position of power I
hooked my homie up. Coaches around the NFL have done
that for years, and now the thing is is my

(38:27):
my Like it's like you recommend someone for a job,
and and and Jane, you and I we we we've
we've had several conversations. It's like, yes, if I if
I told you to go there at eight o'clock and
you showed up at ten, dude, I'm never I'm never
putting my name on the line for you again. And
it's like, you're my homie and I want to see
you thrive, but if you can't do your part, then hell,

(38:47):
I'm not going. I'm not doing anything anymore. He hired
the homie and the homie didn't work out, and this
is this is collateral damage. And hey, listen, you showed
me a favorite way back when I repaid it. But
here's where we're at. I gotta let you go for
my sake. And that's why I think Mike Nolan is gone.

(39:07):
And I think I would not be surprised, Bobby to
your point if the next two games are lost, that
they don't get there, they don't they just cut ties
right then and there and begin to start looking for
because because now what you don't want to do is
what we saw kind of you know, hold on the guys,

(39:28):
and now you're playing this dance about you know, because
if if other candidates see that you still hold on
the mic, they're going elsewhere. So I think you cut ties.
And now you start seeing all those candida who one
of these defensive cording to the job, who are actually
qualified to do so they start poking their head out.
Now they're looking around. They're like, all right, hey, let
me send my resume and let me make my phone calls.

(39:48):
And then that way that also sends a message to
here's what you have to get a jump of what
you're gonna office isn't gonna be like because we don't
know what the there's I mean the way COVID is spiking.
We don't know what the office and want to be like.
So if you're going to change coaches, you it's best
that you do it now or as soon as possible,
so that one the new guy that you do bring in,

(40:10):
there could be a collaboration of what scheme are we running,
what players do we want so that we can go
out and get those guys, whether it's via draft or
via free agency. You gotta act on that now because
you can't have what you had. Mike won't survive another
year like this? What I got a crazy like I
just want to bring the subject. You promoted Kellen Moore,
who is literally what three years removed from the league,

(40:34):
and you moved him up. You believed in him he
could do it. Why not move Shawn Lee up? If
there's any guy like when when I look at the
pregame hype, when I see guys holding people accountable, There
was no one more livid about my report than Shan Lee.
No one more livid that came out was livid because

(40:54):
he is such a football guy. We know he watches
countless announces of tape. Why not? Am I crazy to say?
Why not? And and and and to that point? I
know I've told you Jane this probably I don't think
I've said it on the podcast yet, But I recently
asked dozens and dozens and dozens of people around the league,

(41:16):
h Jesse, you were when I asked. I asked a
ton of people just in general who have been around
the league, have spent time around the league, like, who
is the most intelligent football mind you've ever come across?
And the most common answer I got, and it wasn't
just from players and teammates. It was from a lot
of different types of people. The most common answer I
got with Shaun Lee, which was surprising to me. I
didn't totally expect that. But there was one person that

(41:37):
told me said, uh, it's Shaan Lee because he literally,
they said, he literally knows everybody's responsibility at everybody's position
group on offense and defense. He knows everybody. He knows
what everybody's supposed to be doing. Sean's obsession with like
knowledge of football, like like you hear the term first
guy in let us got to leave. If there was

(41:58):
a like a poster child for that, it would be
comb over, slick back hair, Shawn Like. He is the
poster child of that type of um, of that type
of situation, and they respect him. I won't tell you
I talked to you, but I'm going to read a text.
As we talked about this Mike Nolan defense, and I'd

(42:19):
sort of got I'd gotten some calls from other coaches
in the league about him and how they were shocked
that Jerry didn't do his homework more on him. But
when I asked, he said, what did you think about
the defense as related to the Ravens. Someone that studies
a lot of tape and a lot of people respect
they played a lot of different fronts nickel bear four three.
On the Lamar touchdown, they played straight man on four

(42:39):
receivers with no safety, so when Lamar creased them, they
had no one to stop him from hitting his head
on the goalpost. They ran the exact same play a
little later and Dobbins went for thirty the end were
the ends were standing up sometimes so they could see
better when what Lamar and the action was doing. Yikes. Specifically,
when they talked about Matt Rule, they said, Matt Rules

(43:01):
team message to everyone at via Zoom at the very
band of season was so motivating. He was the son
of a New York City preacher who ran homeless shelters.
He can communicate with anyone. So we talked about what
the Cowboys have and what they're missing. I'm just reading
you someone that watched a lot of tape knows a
lot of people. That was their feedback. Yeah, but you

(43:25):
have to remember, unlike Matt Rule, literally a year ago,
how do you have success as a college head coach recruiting?
MHM right, I have to be up on the latest
trends and lingo and hell even some of the music.

(43:47):
And my don't forget that living room manner when over
whenever mom and Dad. And that's the thing is that
now all I do is I go from five star recruit,
five star recruit, three star crue and I have nothing
but my mouth that I have to and think about
how many reps that Matt Lee has gotten from Tempo,

(44:09):
from Temple to Baylor to everywhere. Just came into Baylor
following one of the nastiest scandals in football and got
them to win. So if you wanted to talk about
a guy, now, granted Baylor's and Waco, that spotlight was
so on that team, and it seems like he handled it.
And from the people I've talked to, they never really

(44:30):
even interviewed him. And as one person in the league
told me, they said, Jane, that Cowboys job is a
young man's job. It's for a young man, for someone
who's hungry, who is innovative, who can relate to the guys,
and that the guys are going to respect. And one

(44:51):
of these people that I talked to in the league said,
it's not a job that I want. I don't have
the stomach for that. And when we talk about Mike McCarthy,
who's been out a year, he needed football as much
as football needed him. He came in. He said, he
learned all these new tricks, he learned analytics. When things
go wrong, it's because the analytics say that. I just

(45:12):
not that. I think that he's hot trash and Mike's
not the guy. I think Mike can still coach. I
think he's I think he's a good head coach. I
think he could be that. I just don't know if
it's in Dallas, with everything that comes with this job.
Think about it. Jason was young when he got the job,
not incredibly relatable. But but I'll give you this an example,

(45:36):
and I think I think what you're saying is has
so much validity to it about it being I think
football in general, I think sports in general is becoming
a young man's game now. And but Andy Reid thrives, right,
Pete Carroll is the oldest man in football, but he's

(45:57):
he vibes with his guys. You know, but look at
his assistance, right, he gets assistant, And I think that's
something that you have to also look at you. You
can be an older maybe even a little bit out
of a touch guy. Who are you surrounding yourself with?
Are you surrounding yourself? Because why what you We we
hinted on it earlier. What is so important to these
players the guy they sit in the meeting room with

(46:19):
every single day? How is how is Nick Saban able
to still go out here and get because he well,
the program helps, but he's able to have guys around
him that these other players relate to. So I think
from Mike, one of the biggest things I think Mike
did early in his Cowboys career was he buckled to

(46:41):
the Kelly Moore thing because one of the one of
the to me while I was standing on the table
from Mike McCarthy, I wanted this play calling. I wanted
that part of Mike McCarthy. And I think when you
kind of almost and I don't know, I don't know,
I wasn't those meetings, but if you were kind of
feeding to get a job, sometimes you say yes to anything.

(47:02):
I want the job, and yeah, I'll let Kelly Moore
be the offensive play caller. And I think that's took
away some of who he is. And we were actually
times about the game man and this and this and that.
When you take those things away from him, it throws
off his coaching page bounce because he's it's such a
routine of Okay, I know what I'm doing, I'm here,

(47:23):
and now sometimes you find yourself because I'm not calling plays.
I'm you know, I'm not fully involved like kind of
in the offense, you know, so to speak. I can
find myself wandering looking for things to do. One game day,
We'll let me go over here, yeall, at someone let
me cause because I'm not locked in like when you
call him plays, I'm When you're a play caller, you're

(47:43):
locked into everything. For that, remember he was the walkablle coach.
Yeah we called him for it. But at least what
Garrett did well was he got guys to buy in
but manager but agreed. But to your point, he got
guys to buy in and motivate them in a way

(48:04):
that they at least respected them. That's what it feels
like missing with Mike a little bit. It's like there's
like this lack of respect and maybe that is because
of COVID. I don't know what it is. It's maybe
it's maybe maybe it's because he he's riding so hard
for his homie that people are having a hard time
with that. It's losing, Jane, it's losing. It's losing. Winning

(48:29):
cures everything. I'm curious you mentioning that that part about
You know, when you take away part of his routine,
then maybe he's kind of stuck looking around looking for
something to do. On game day. I saw something, and
this was not discussed. I mean, there was only a
handful of people I think who saw at the time.
But ahead of the Pittsburgh game, the Pittsburgh game was
the more Zeke was questionable, I think, um, But ahead

(48:49):
of the Pittsburgh game, Um, Mike McCarthy, I've never I've
never seen a head coach do this at all. Three
hours before kickoff, he came out and stood by the
tunnel and he stood there for a full hour, and
he talked to a Pittsburgh assistant coach for about a
half hour. But then there was another half hour where
he just sat there waiting for Zeke to come out
to warm up. And I just remember being struck by,

(49:11):
like I never saw Garrett until thirty minutes before kickoff
out on the field. I don't typically see head coaches
until thirty forty five minutes before kickoff and they come
out with the whole group, and it just was Oddum,
it was like, man, three hours before kickoff and the
head coach is literally spending a full hour just sitting
outside on the field and sometimes talking to people, sometimes
just sitting there waiting, and and I thought it was
a little bit odd. Do you think that's furthering that

(49:33):
thought that like he's a little bit kind of lost
without what he normally does, which is the play calling.
This is what he's always done, Like thinking like his
entire career when he came in the league, he came
in like that, being involved in doing something and then
once you become that play caller. Like and I keep
referencing going back to Sean Payton because I know that

(49:54):
you have a relationship there and you've been around Sean,
like three hours before the game. Sean is still kind
of like, you know, still finalizing some things for the offense, right,
you know, who's up, who's down all. You know what
I slept on this last night. We're gonna do this
in the first fifteen plays, you know, put in red
zone stuff. On Saturday nights, at two o'clock in the morning,

(50:14):
he's tolay for and I'm like, that's insane. But it helps.
When you've got a quarterback that you finish each other's sentences.
It's easy for that guy to be like, oh, yeah,
I've seen that before. That work for me. Let's add
that to the you know, the place sheet. So but
but but I mean, you're able to do that, but
his mind is still thinking about how can I perfect
whatever game plan that we have, how can I add

(50:37):
another wrinkle, how can I add another opportunity for us
to have success. So you're always involved in something, you're engaged,
You're engaged with Mike. He's just there and I think
that I think a part of that is is it
eats away at you a little bit, and now you
find yourself just wandering trying to find something to do it.
Because they said when the A t when I got

(51:01):
the lay of game, like, what was he doing You're
talking about to Fossil, It's like, he's just what you
just finding stuff to do it. It's like, you know,
but again, I hadn't thought about that. That is an interest.
You're one of the smartest guys that I've talked to
like I said, we had that one sit down one
day and I was like, that was some fascinating stuff.
That is an interesting theory. That's why I love the show.
I always told our fans and our listeners it's cathartic.

(51:24):
We're sort of all talking through it since we're not
able to fully connect with these guys. I certainly haven't
heard from my guys since since the report, but I
think it's interesting sort of talk through some of these things.
But that makes a lot of sense. And to be clear,
I'm not the the president of the fire Mike McCarthy
fan club. Like I like Mike. Mike when I'd see

(51:45):
him at Combine was always personable. I was excited when
he was coming here. I think a lot of people think,
like I fly my flag for Jason. I don't fly
my flag for Jason. Jason and I had our differences.
He once told me, I said, do you not like me? Said,
we just do things differently, And I never quite understood
what that meant. But I always respected him, and I
respected the way guys played for him, and he allowed

(52:09):
his guys, in my opinion, to be who they were.
I mean, he allowed does it would drive him nuts,
but he allowed DeMarcus to say what he wanted. He
allowed Does to say what he wanted. When I think
about some of these other programs, they allowed these guys
to say what they want, like be you. But I
feel like this, it's like they've come in like put
a cap on these guys, and I don't know, it's
just it's just so hard to evaluate Mike given covid.

(52:33):
So I like to talk these things through with you
because I think you're a smart guy. So that's my
long winded way of saying, like, that's really interesting. Yeah,
I wanna And Jane, I think I brought this up
earlier in the season. You shot it down, but I'm
going to bring it up again because a lot has changed,
and Jesse, I want you to I'm gonna throw out
I'm gonna throw out one of my world famous tinfoil
hat questions. Now, I know he got a lot of

(52:54):
money above market value, but should it have been more
of a red flag to people that Randall Cobbs said,
I'd rather go to Houston than play for Mike McCarthy again,
especially when he had such a good relationship with Dak
and had put together a strong season don't you think
that if he was as genuinely like tight with Mike

(53:15):
McCarthy as the Cowboys wanted him to be, don't you
think he would have said, like, I can take a
bit of a discount to come back here. But it
was significant amount of money. So this, this was my
argument to Jesse. It was a significant amount of money.
That was more. They were on their second kid, and
I don't know how long Randall's going to be playing.
He might have been thinking of himself. Yes, his wife's
a bad chick and she makes a lot of money

(53:37):
as an attorney. When she decides that she wants to
go back to work and do it full time, incredibly smart.
I like a girl crush on her. But maybe he
wanted to be more featured in an offense. I mean,
I think it's an interesting theory. Bobby. He got a
lot of play last year. I mean, if if penalties
don't take away a couple of big catches for him,
he had a couple of really unfortunate like illegal you know,

(53:57):
procedure or whatever, like somebody's like somebody had in the
lead will shift on like an eight yard touchdown scor
I mean, he's I think he's close to like a
thousand yards and seven eight touchdowns last year, and he
put up good numbers and ceedee, Lamb's putting up good numbers.
He'd be in that spot in theory. And so just
it made it made me wonder that you know, he
showed up to that press conference when they introduced Mike
and uh, you know, he he had a lot of

(54:19):
great things say. I don't think there was anybody who
disliked Randall Cobb. I think he got along pretty well
with everybody inside the locker room. I think there was
a strong connection for him here. And so it was
just I just wondered, I know, I'm I'm just being
a little tinfoil hat is Is it odd that he said,
I'll go to Houston instead, I'll go play for Bill O'Brien,
who's got a terrible reputation. I love Bill, okay, but

(54:41):
I'm just saying terrible reputation elsewhere. When you start talking
about guys who are at the end of their career,
it's it's kind of almost, let let me store up
as much of this bag as I can before I
hit the rule. I'm just being honest with you, and
and and it's like Randall had a Super Bowl. Not correct, Right,
So he has a Super Bowl. I think, yeah, yeah,

(55:04):
so he has a super Bowl. Right, he had his
moment in time when he was a pro bowler, and
now for him is I don't have anything else to
prove I need. I'm trying to get all I can
and my nest egg and you know, if you I
love Dallas, I'm only going forty five south, So I'm

(55:24):
I'm a forty five minute southwest plane right away from
If my wife and kids wanted to stay here, I
can literally if I wanted to, if I wanted to
be fancy smancy, I could literally take a flight in
the morning to practice and come home for dinner if
I wanted to. Um. So, I don't think there was
I don't think that was a kind of a red flag.

(55:45):
I just think of a player who's kind of seeing
the riding on the wall, knowing his career is going
it's coming to an end pretty soon, and sought an
opportunity to make a couple more million dollars and in
the state that doesn't have any state tax, and he
jumped on it, and of million extra jobs, I know
it was. It was a ton like I said, I'm
not saying that's even the case. I was just throwing
out a theory. I was curious at the theory. I mean, yeah,

(56:08):
he got like nine million annually and that Dallas probably
probably wasn't gonna spend. Dallas wasn't gonna give him more
than five or six probably, But I I just it's
more just like, Okay, let's cobbled together enough information here.
I think we see um Randall Cobb leaving right, Everson
Griffin coming in here like drawn in by Mike McCarthy
less than two months later, like came in here as

(56:30):
a a willing, like I'm buying in probably more than
other people were, because he chose coming here, and then
within two months was like okay, I went out of here.
And then you look at things like who was the
most consistent last year in the locker room, Jane insisting
that it was the player's fault what was happening on
the field, and not the coaching staff. You remember who
it was, Jalen Smith. Jalen consistently said, these are day

(56:51):
of mistakes on us, This is nothing about our preparation.
Consistently said that. And now this year there's been like
two or three instances of like are you throwing the
coaching staff on it? It just seems like there are
these little like when you cobble them together, you might
be able to like say, okay, well look, you know
there was a bang herd from the grassy knoll and
somebody saw, you know, something over here and back into
the left and Randall Cobb left for Houston. See Jesse.

(57:15):
This is why I agree that they're the reason why
I even put their report out is because I believe
it's not all coaching. I mean it's I believe it's
not all players, and so the players just kept getting trash.
My point was there's another piece of the puzzle. In
other words, coaches do have to put their players in
a position to succeed. And I think heading into season,

(57:37):
we heard that this defense was going to be exotic,
it was gonna be multiple, and it's been so exotic.
They're on an island and there's no life votes for them,
and they're so multiple. I just let Regie the list
earlier of like what fronts they're playing. I think it's
just it's a lot for this group to digest. And
to your point, in a COVID season, when they haven't

(57:57):
built up the trust in this new coaching staff that
they need to do certain things, Like somebody brought up
to me, why is de Marcus Lawrence and a two
point stance, it's it's disingenuous to a skill set. Why
do you have two linebackers out there against against a
running quarterback instead of three? And so I think that
while might keep saying they need to trust the process,

(58:19):
do things that aren't comfortable for them, it's hard for
guys to trust the process do things that aren't comfortable
for them when they haven't had the opportunity to really
be taught the scheme, the opportunity to buy in. And
as a result, we see them improvising and abandoning and
going back to what they know because they, to your point,

(58:40):
have some of these egos and they're getting tired of
being called trash, and then when they do that, they
get exposed. I think it's not that complicated. I think
that's what's going on here. That's just my sense. No,
you're you're you're definitely driving down the right road. Um,
And it's it's say it's a complicated mix because they're

(59:04):
both both that fault. Um. One thing I know about coaches,
especially those who've been around this league a very long time.
They're stubborn. They're stubborn. It's it's this is my system,
this is what I know. I hang my hat on it.
I've had success with it. If I just keep banging
this square into this round hole, it's gonna fit. And

(59:29):
it's hard for them to come off of that because,
to be honest with you, this is what I know.
This is what I know. And when you routinely get
jobs over and over and over and over and over again,
it doesn't force you to change. You're allowed to stay
the same. So now you have a coach who has

(59:51):
a system and wants to do it a certain way,
and you have players who were taking a different system
in a different way of learning. Because again we said earlier,
these pups were were groomed and grew up in a
different system. So everything about their off season training, their
weight training, everything was grooming them to do something different.
And then the change happens, and again you have no

(01:00:14):
off season to allow that that preparation and acceleration to
learning the new on both on players, learning systems, system
learning players and in meshing. And then now you try
to bring it together, and you're you're trying to get
these two things to work, and sometimes you get it
to work, and you'll see what that that was a
bad scheme fit right there, and then you'll see things

(01:00:36):
like we saw the other night and late and even
said it. He goes, I'm supposed to be in the
front side of a gap, and you watched the field
when you're saying later you were going on the front
side of any gap. And then all of a sudden,
for whatever reasons he told us, he said, but why
I think it goes back to my my point. He
sort of questions if that's the right call. But have

(01:01:00):
been DeMarcus Lawrence. We've got to play this clip, Bobby,
because he cut me off mid sentence. Heard that clip,
and it's like he wanted to walk us through This
is how I don't want to read into because I
haven't followed up with DeMarcus because I can't. It was
almost like he wanted to explain, well, I gotta do this, this, this,

(01:01:21):
and this, and he's got to do this, this, this,
and this, So yeah, he might second guess himself, Yeah
I might be rushing up hill field, but these are
things you guys aren't seeing And I was like, that's interesting.
Can I can I play the conservative end, which is
not normally my play is to to err on the
side of caution and say and think, you know, the warmest,
fuzziest feelings. My read when hearing DeMarcus answer that didn't

(01:01:45):
because I know this was a debate by some people
on social media. Brian brought Us had mentioned he thought
it was this way that it sounded like you're questioning
all the things the coaching staff is having you do.
My read on it was when I heard de Marcus
Lawrence say that, I think DeMarcus Lords are saying, when
any coach and staff is playing against the triple option,
you've got a ton of responsibilities. And so I think
it was more he was talking about the responsibilities versus

(01:02:08):
the opponent, rather than the responsibility of the coaching staffs
were putting on him. That's just it's triple option football
and you're asked to do a lot of stuff. But
but my thing when when you're talking about like things
like triple option, like, yes, a lot of different things
can happen, but your responsibilities are are are are your responsibilities?
And I mean to be fair they were playing it
right at the start of the snap and Laton abandoned it.

(01:02:28):
So they weren't say, but you said, you've got a
lot of the same personnel this you're that have just
been inefficient against the run. So Bobby, you're my football
savant here. Can you think of any game last year
or the year before they played a triple option quarterback
and we're able to actually get it done? Um No,

(01:02:50):
I mean they they've gone against mobile quarterbacks. They haven't
really gone against a a a team that runs the
ball the way Baltimore does. But I mean, also, to
be fair, Stephen said when he talked to the fan
this week, said that it's it wasn't just Baltimore, that
this is a consistent issue all year, right against the
run game. I mean, you've got, um, three of the

(01:03:12):
the three of the eleven worst rushing defense performances by
the Cowboys and franchise history have been this year. And
so I mean there's there's a lot there that you
know is hard to explain, but glare just but do
players just digress that quick in a season? So my

(01:03:35):
point is where I'm going with this, Jesse, is we
are seeing a lot of similar personnel that there specifically
against the run game. Do players just go down the
drain that that many players go down the drain that
quick in one season because of COVID, because we're not
seeing that with other teams. So what I'm getting at
is going back to the argument that I made earlier,
I think it's a combination of both well and and James.

(01:03:55):
Why not just simplify this thing, which might Nolan got
a little testy with when I asked earlier in the season,
when we have simplified it, we have biblah blah. Whatever
you're doing is not working. So get through the four
games and scheme this thing up to the skill set
of these players, and then next year try and reinvent
the wind. And that's that. That was the exact point

(01:04:16):
Chris or Shard made when we talked to him recently.
Was Chris had said that for all the talk about
we weren't disguising things and we weren't doing this, and
that he said, there is a concept in football called
ability alignment, and that is you align and you put
your players in position to where their ability will allow
them to make the play. And so there's certain things
you can't ask them to do, and so I wonder
if that's kind of what's a play here is Mike Nolan.

(01:04:38):
I thought that these players were more capable of things
within his scheme than they were, and he's learning quickly
they can't do the things that I need them to do.
But I go back to you, brought up Christoph Shard,
and christ Star simply said, yeah, we simplified it last
year and we didn't get it done. So that that
that tells you as well well a coach sit here
and told you we simplified it, and yet and still

(01:04:59):
we still we're bad. We still were bad in run
defense last year. So this isn't a new thing. So
whether you simplify it or whether you complicated, the results
have been the same because at some point in time,
Rod Marinelli and Christopher shar begin to just simply say,
here's what we're going to do, and you have to

(01:05:20):
be able to do it well. If it is the players,
you've got to give the coaching staff credit for masking
some of these deficiencies. If they were historically this bad
as a personnel group. I mean, and there is a
lot of injuries too, obviously, Yeah, but still like come on,
like there's certain things where if you can't get off

(01:05:40):
a block, I don't care how I scheme it up.
If you can't get off a block at this level,
I don't care what I do. And we've seen a
lot of that. If you can't stay in front of
a guy in coverage, letn't care what I do. And
there's certain things where you're just saying, well, what else
do you want me to do? Like, hey, gud listen,
the guard's gonna come off on you. That's that's football,

(01:06:01):
one on one now. If you kick uh and get
rid of them and we're supposed to get to then
then then hell, I'm I'm hated. Cap Jesse is confused
out there, and I'm not a tape girl. But when
you watch it, I remember we were in the press box, Bob,
and I was like, what was that? Like the utter
confession as they're getting lined up, and it's just so obvious,

(01:06:24):
like nuances that guys like Baldy would do on breakdowns,
stuff that I wouldn't normally pick up on. Literally I'm
seeing them line up, and it was when Jalen was
it was a home game. Jalen was called the plays
when Layton was at and he was legitimately confused out there.
It's Jesse to that point when you you just doing this,
that reminded me to ask when when you're showing the

(01:06:46):
push pull technique and things like that. That's probably, i
think schematically, one of the larger differences this year is
that Jim tom Sewela is more you know two gaping
and you know push pull, and it's a physical like
shed and and things like, whereas Rod Maynelly was all
about guys getting up field and the defensive line getting
up field. Is that potentially where most of this run

(01:07:09):
game bleeding out with similar personnel's happenings, because the defensive
line is asking to run a scheme that they are
not skilled at. That they can't. They can't this last
year we gave up. We give up bad numbers. Last
year running the ball against US not quite this bad.
It was bad. It was bad. It was bad against Minnesota,
Dalvin Cook ran all over him. That was a bad game.
And that and and and and their big issue last

(01:07:33):
year honestly was quarterbacks scrambling. Trubisky and Driskell and other
guys who were no names were picking up sixt yards
rushing the game on you, and that was I talked
to some people who said that they thought that was
a function of Rod Marinelli's scheme because defensive line, we're
getting up field so quickly, and then there were just
these lanes. This is the simple yet complex thing that

(01:07:57):
we have in the NFL is home is that guys
use all off season because all you had to do
was watch film. You couldn't go anywhere, you couldn't do anything,
So you just start watching film and watching film and
watching film and saying, he can't do this, he can't
do this. And so now what you see is you

(01:08:21):
see a lot of things being schemed offensively to put
those players in a position to have to now go
to the weakest part of their game. And that's something
that a lot of people are not talking about, Like, yeah,
you can say, scheme, isn't There's some other cats on
the other side that they pay a bunch of money
to who watching film and they're like, we're gonna mostly

(01:08:44):
here emostly you get this and we get to look
that we want and easy money, easy you know, you
know what I'm saying. So it's like that that's just
you gotta give credit to the other guy. On the
side the ball as well. They they that is the
that that is the the essence of what football is.
It's I'm going to try to figure out a way

(01:09:05):
to highlight and make you play with your weak points. Yeah,
I'm not gonna Hey, guess what, guys, I'm not gonna
let Jaylen Smith just run downhill on us. He's gonna
win more often than he loses. What I am gonna
make Jayleen do is play side to side and we'll
we'll we'll take our chances. Yeah, he may get us
one time, but we make gashing for thirty seven, we

(01:09:26):
make gashing for forty. Hey, here's what I'm gonna do
with here. Hey, listen to Marcus Lawrence is a great player.
That's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna let him fly
up the field and we're gonna come right underneath them.
And so there's certain things that they're looking at and
they're saying, Okay, here's where they're here's where they're. Hey,
we're gonna make these guys have to cover. Don't don't
worry about I'm gonna motion this guy inside. He's gonna
take the I can d and I'm gonna have a
guy go across the middle. There's other guys on the

(01:09:50):
other side of the ball who get paid a boatload
of money to figure these things out, and the cowboy
the personnel doesn't change. Jayleen couldn't move side to side
last year, I can't move side to side this year.
Right later, he had his struggles to certain things, getting
off blocks and shedding blocks that ain't changed this year
because he spent most of the offices. They were coming
from next surgery. So again they're seeing these things and

(01:10:13):
they're saying, here's what we gotta do, fellas, and they're
executing it, and they're saying, you may stop us once,
you may even stop us twice. And once Dak went
out early in the season, there was nothing that said
that I have to be in a hurry because I'm
not worried about them scoring, so I can take my

(01:10:34):
time and let this thing play out and then eventually
crack it before you know, when when you have such
a good quarterback, old prolific offense of someone you were
threatened you, it makes you think differently. But now it's like, oh,
we'll punt because they are they're gonna put it back
to us, and then we'll try it again, and if
it doesn't, we'll punt again, and then we'll either you know,

(01:10:57):
let them make a mistake and they'll put it back
to us, and then we'll crack it because we've we've
seen it two or three times. We make in game
adjustments and now we go ahead and do it because
a lot of times in in in in NFL games,
it's not that you you beat me for sixty seventy plays, No,
you found about five or six of them that you
really want and that's the outcome of the game. Yeah,

(01:11:18):
this year at sixty seventy plays thee Yeah there's a
games they've lost, but but you know, you see what
I'm saying. It's like it's like this this with these
guys seeing and there's no coaches in officeive quarter as
they're saying, we don't have to rush this stuff. We're
gonna get the look that we want because they're only
scoring sixteen points a game. When Dak was playing, they

(01:11:40):
were scoring thirty plus. So that puts an onus on it.
You know what, Hey, if we do put them the ball,
the likelihood of four in the Russia those guys making
a play is significant. Now, whether you got and Dyu
or Garrett Gilbert or whoever office court that they say,
all right, okay, even if they do sor I like

(01:12:01):
my chances that they can't do that three more times
and they've been right. And so they just keep plun
the way out. They what they want to do and say, well,
they'll give us the ball back and they will do
it again, and they will crack one and they will
get up ten fourteen points and they can't come back
from that because they don't have the offensive output to do.
So it's depressing, uh to talk about. You know, sometimes

(01:12:27):
in Bobby and I talked about doing this podcast, some
people said, you know, we've been sporadic and they haven't
been as regular. It's like, what do you want us
to talk about? I feel like it's like a broken
record at this point. What's not a broken record though, Jesse,
before we let you go, is your bleeding heart for
those um then arn'tstfortunate is as us this time of year,
we always get the text from you that reminds us

(01:12:48):
to give and give generously. I come begging for your mind.
You are shameless about it, and I'm okay with it.
Tell that the listeners and the and the viewers that
are watching on on YouTube what you're about this here
and how they can help, Yeah, you know, and a
quick backstory of me. I'm I'm middle of three boys
born and raised in Roselle, New Jersey. Uh mother drug attic, father,

(01:13:10):
drug dealer. Raised by my grandmother who made less than
thirty five thousand dollars a year, and so trying to
feed three growing boys on a salary that you know,
that's tough. And there were a lot of times we
didn't have much um and this time of the year
were times where you know, Grandma had to make a decision,

(01:13:31):
was it you know, I like to say, we had
more month than money and more bills than bucks, and
so I have to she has to make a decision.
Do I, you know, do I gifts and put them
under the tree, or do I put food in their bellies?
You know what I'm saying? Do I keep the heat
on in the wintertime in New Jersey? Right? And so
those are decisions that a lot of people like my

(01:13:52):
grandmother have to make. And the thing is here, I
am young Jesse Holly's thinking, man, I just I want
to be able to go back to school. Let's say,
I got a Christmas gime. I want to be able
to go outside on the block and play with the
Christmas gif. I want to be able to come down
on December and say I have a gift under the tree.
And as a kid, you don't, I don't understand that
Grandma has to have to balance this thing out. And

(01:14:14):
I always remember just thinking, man, just with someone. You
see the commercials, He's like, why is some one of
them come help us? I would love some help, you know,
for us. And in some days like you know, hey,
this year was gonna get long John's, It's gonna get
socks this year. Sorry, you're not gonna be able to
get the thing that you saw in the toys r
Us Circular. Yeah, I'm that old the toys r Us
circular um. And I remember we were coming from an

(01:14:38):
away game against Miami and I kind of had one
of those moments where I felt unfulfilled, like yes, you're
you're not You're living, but you're not you're not changing,
You're just here. And I remember doing like a self assessment.
I looked, I looked at myself up and down, literally
looked at myself up and down. I remember I had
three sneakers on, two fifty dollar jeans for dollar belt,

(01:15:00):
hundred dollars shirt and I'm just like, I'm I was
not with the close on and I just felt like
what are you doing? Like what? Like? Who are you?
What are you? What are you doing? And I'm not
saying that you can't have nice stuff. I worked hard,
but it was like you just you could do more.
And that's where Holly's Helping Hands kind of came into play.
And I love Christmas. This is like Christmas matches my personality. Um,

(01:15:26):
I'm a I'm a giver by nature. I'm a joyful
person by nature unless you pissed me off, and then
I'm not. I'm a breach um. But it just the
spirit of Christmas makes me happy. And when I think
about Christmas, I think about Little Jesse, and I think
about there's some kids who will get up on December
twenty five and have nothing. I said, help do something

(01:15:51):
to change the world, do something to make someone feel good.
And so we started Holly's Helping Hands and for like
ten plush years now, I find familis in the in
the d F of you area who are in need
um and we try to give them a kid, Christmas
of a lifetime, not just a good Christmas, but a
Christmas of a lifetime, because um, it's just it's just something.

(01:16:12):
And most kids don't understand that, you know, the fullness
of what Christmas said. They think about Christmas and being,
you know, a gift. And normally what we would do
is we would have these families who didn't know each other,
completely strangers, and there's something unique and special. And I'm
not ashamed of my belief. I'm a follower at Jesus Christ.
But their stories all through the Bible where it talks

(01:16:33):
about how God wanted to break break right, he wanted
to sit down and eat with you. That meant something
for him to sit down and break bread with you.
Bring these families around from all around, and they come
together and we we cater a dinner at david Busters,
and we would come and we would break bread. They
didn't know him from Adam, they didn't know him from Eve,

(01:16:53):
but we all come together and for those couple of hours,
we were all family. No matter where you came from,
no matter what you's situation was, no matter you black, white, hispanic, blue, purple,
from Mars and from Venus, we set together and we
ate and we enjoyed each other's company and you share stories.
And I would always tell when I got a chance
to speak, I will always tell them. I remind them,

(01:17:16):
you know, I set in your seats. I get it,
I understand it. Trust me, I said. But one of
the things that my grandmother would always tell me about
was legacy. And I would tell them, you will never
you you will never get a chance to meet Yvonne Holly.
That's where the why comes from in my email, I
I had to I had to ask Jesse because his

(01:17:37):
his Holly email has a wine and I was like,
is that a TYPEO? Do you mean to hit of jade?
You just get close to the keyboard. That is that
That email is kind of the last thing that I
used me my grandmother's email, and that's the last thing
that I have from her. So that's I kept it
and so I still use that as a remember as
a reminder of her. So the Y is for Yvonne.

(01:17:58):
That's my grandmother's email that I had since she passed away.
But I always tell them, I go, you'll never meet
Yvonne Holly, but you'll reap the benefits of her. And
I want twenty years from now, people may not never
know who Mr Fourth de Long is, who Jesse Holly is,
but we'll reap the benefits of it because some kid
was at Holly's helping hands, and you know, now when

(01:18:22):
they're in the position, there we go. I remember when
I was ten and this guy came and helped us,
and now I want to do that for someone else.
And the stories that we have are remarkable. Um, you
know they're they're some are sad, and I'll give you
kind of both on the on the spectrum. Um, I'm
athletic director now right, I'm living a pretty decent good life.
I don't have any complaints. Um. I'm at a championship

(01:18:45):
volleyball game right. Our girls are at a volleyball game
and the championship, and I'm walking in the gym and
there's a group of volleyball girls walking in and one
girl is like staring at me. This is pre you know,
pre mask, you know, all that kind of stuff. And
I'm looking at her like why is she staring at me?
But in my mind I'm thinking maybe she thinks she
recognizes me from whatever, And she goes, she walks by me,

(01:19:09):
and then she comes back. She says, I know you,
and I'm like me, She's like I know you, and
I'm like, I'm sorry, sweetheart, I don't. I don't. She goes,
you're the guy. You're you're the guy from the Christmas thing.
And I said what she said, my grandmother and my

(01:19:29):
sister we were at your Christmas thing two years ago.
And I was like, oh my goodness, and she was like,
I knew. I knew your face. You helped us out
two years ago. My grandmother she was raising us and
you helped us out. I knew. I remembered your face,
and here it is. I'm like, wow, you know she
remembered that moment. She didn't she didn't know me because

(01:19:51):
I called off touchdown pass or didn't catch this up,
that we're not the one y'ard or whatever you wanna
call it, or for what I did in college. She remembered,
you're the guy from the Christmas thing you'r and then
you know. And then another situation where we had a
we had a sixteen year old girl last year. Her
name is Ariel. Ariel has brain cancer. Ariel won't see

(01:20:13):
eighteen years old. She won't and there's certain things that
she couldn't do because her mom and her dad couldn't
do Christmas because they spent all their money and traveling
expenses and hotel stays to do her chemo and try
to find different ways to give her a better chance
at life in a miracle from brain cancer. It's just

(01:20:34):
like they're like, listen, all we can do now is
keep her comfortable. So they spent all their money in
treatment and doctor bills and hospital stays and all the
kind of stuff going across the country trying to save
their baby. And because of the gracest donations that people
have given me, I was able to give them a
Christmas last year, and the girl was so sweet. There's

(01:20:55):
there's a picture, um and I'll post on Twitter. There's
a picture of We're Peggy promising, right, I'm I'm I'm
still like I would Picky promise you? Like that means
a lot to me. I will Picky promise you, and
we Picky promise, And I said, as long as you
keep fighting, I'm gonna fight with you. I'm gonna fight
to the very end with you. And I still call
and I check up on Earth, you know, And I
have a shirt um Arials Warrior because we're just fighting

(01:21:18):
with Ariel, you know. Um. And so that those are
the things that now that we deal with. I had
a kid four or five years ago. His grandmother came
and she said, all he wants to do is play basketball.
It's all he wants to do. The time that we
here wakes up to the time, he's just he's bouncing, bouncing, bouncing.
But the park is a little bit ways away, and

(01:21:39):
he always wants a bike to go to the park. Well,
that year, we got him a bike and a brand
new basketball. And hope doesn't make me cry, but that Christmas,
we'll get him a bike in a basketball. And that spring,

(01:21:59):
I it a call from a pastor and he said,
your names on the program. I said, what are you
talking about. He says, I'm doing a service today for
a kid that got hit by a car and passed away.
And I saw your name on the program and he
screenshot at me the name of the program and it

(01:22:20):
was his lasting memories. One of his lasting memories was
spending Christmas with Jesse Holly and that was his last Christmas.
And you know, and and so those type of things
that I live with every single day. But there's so
many faces you know, the young people faces that look

(01:22:42):
and they're just so happy. So that's that's that's my story,
and this is why I do it every single year,
and um, I'll do it as long as I possibly
can because it's not about me. It's about those kids.
And and I want my legacy not to be that
I was at Dallas Cowboy. I want my legacy to
be with my grandmother as like I was, that I
was a good person. Because the football stuff, that's cool,

(01:23:05):
that's a platform, But being a good person, that to me,
it lasts forever and people will always remember that. What
I love about my platform is I have the opportunity
to get to know guys like you under the helmet.
You know, so many people turn on their TV and
they know you guys based on stats. They know you

(01:23:26):
guys based on your play, they know you from fourth
and Long. But you are truly changing and not living
and that's what I love about you. One of my favorite,
like I said, days, was sitting down with you and
having a conversation about who you are, what your makeup
is about. So please tell people where they can get
ahold of you. Yeah, go to my Twitter at Mr
Fourth and Long. Um, the link is in my bio

(01:23:48):
um and and listen, people think sometimes well I can
only donate five bucks. That works, like I make that stretch.
My team makes that stretch. I can get you a
pack of sacks or some rolls for five dollars. And
there are some kids who need that, right, there's some
kids who need you know, need that. And we have
great partners like uh, you know, Old Navy and great
Vine Mills mall who partners with us uh and really

(01:24:12):
make sure that we get all the stuff that we need.
And this has been a trimultorous year. This has been
a year of just man, body blow after body blow
after body blow. And I get it. Some people won't
be able to And I tell people, if you're not able,
pray just pray for me, just just this. And if
you're that is to me, pray that someone will see

(01:24:33):
this and be able to give double you know, I'm like,
if you can't give, I'm cool with that, Pray for me,
Pray for this, Pray for someone to send a donation
that's tenfold of what you would have given, and to
me that that's important as well. So if you can't give,
pray for me, Pray for hold Jay Holly, pray for
Holly's helping hands and say, hey, you know, Lord, whoever

(01:24:53):
the God that you believe in, or the spirits that
you believe in, the or the universe that you believe in,
and saying, you know, send some good vibes his way,
and if you can donate five TI. I mean, you know,
one of the things the pandemic taught me was how
much money we waste on little things. Right when you
can't stop at Starbucks and get to nine dollar coffee,

(01:25:15):
when you don't stop at the gays. When I stop
at the gas station sometimes I like, I'll go in
and get like a slim gym and a and a
and a red bull. That's seven dollars, right, You do
that a couple of times a week, that's twenty one dollars.
You do that? You know four we time of the month,
we're talking about the northern part of a hundred bucks.
It's like, dagn I do that on top of getting gas.

(01:25:37):
You just don't think about those things. So you know,
it's like, hey, don't have Starbucks this morning. I know
it may make some people crazy and make some people
have real rage, but hey, don't don't get the Red Bull.
This time you go to the gas station and donates
all these up and hands because it goes a long
way and it can change the lives of of children.
We vie with you. We appreciate you, thank you for

(01:25:58):
doing this with us, and uh we look forward to
having you on again in front of the show. I
love you, guys, man anytime, anytime, anytime, anytime, You guys
have been good to me, so I'm always going to
be good to you. All right. Well, coming up on Sunday,
the Cowboys get the Cincinnati Bengals and what you may
you may term the penais Seul Bowl, because if the Cowboys,

(01:26:20):
lou whoever loses this game is going to be in
prime position for that third overall pick and and likely
taking Pinay Suil the Oregon offensive tackle. So it's not
like there's not things still on the line for the Cowboys.
Just because the playoffs are a pipe dream. We got
we got draft position to worry about against the Bengals
this week. Or Bobby, did they go to Jimmy strategy
and draft that quarterback behind the stop? That stop, that

(01:26:42):
stop that I will entertain. No, Trevor Lawrence justin fields
anything talk just pay Doak Jerry. That's that's if you
get nothing else out of this year. Hey Dak Prescott

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