March 26, 2025 • 35 mins
It was a real treat to reconnect with Austin Kleon for this episode of A Productive Conversation. Before we got into the heart of the conversation, Austin gave us a quick update: his next book Don’t Call It Art is in the works, inspired by the playful creativity he’s witnessed in his kids. He also mentioned that his once-weekly newsletter has now doubled in frequency—and it continues to be one of the best things I read online.
What followed was one of the most down-to-earth, real conversations I’ve had on the podcast. Austin and I explored how routines shape creative work, why space and time are both essential, and what it means to pay attention in a world that’s constantly pulling at you. His approach to creative living—one grounded in ritual, space, boundaries, and self-awareness—is something we can all learn from, whether we’re artists, entrepreneurs, or just trying to make a little more room for what matters.
Six Discussion Points
- Austin’s upcoming book Don’t Call It Art and how it was inspired by parenting
- The power of routine in a creative life—and how Austin structures his day
- Why boundaries (including physical signs on doors) help protect focus
- Using analog and digital “zones” for different types of work
- Paying attention to what you pay attention to—and why it matters
- The idea of a “bliss station” and how space (or time) supports creative flow
- Revisiting your own journaling and notes as a form of orientation and reflection
Three Connection Points
- Austin's website
- Keep Going: 10 Ways to Stay Creative in Good Times and Bad
- My "Bliss Station" (circa 2019)
Whether you’re deep into your own creative practice or trying to carve out more space for it, this conversation with Austin is a reminder that creativity isn’t about hustle—it’s about attention, boundaries, and giving yourself room to work and think. It’s always a joy to talk with Austin, and I hope this episode helps you reconnect with your own creative rhythm. (Originally released April 2019)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike Vardy (00:00):
Before we get started with the episode, I just
(00:02):
wanna give you a quick heads upthat a productive conversation
has officially moved hosts. Notme, the place where we host the
podcast. So if you're hearingthis, everything worked just
fine. But if you ever have anyissues, you can always find the
latest episodes ataproductiveconversation.transistor.fm.
(00:22):
Now that we've gotten that outof the way, let's get on with
the show.
(00:42):
Welcome to A ProductiveConversation. I'm Mike Barty,
and it is way back week, whichmeans we revisit a conversation
from way back one, and it's withnone other than Austin Kleon.
Now before we get into thatconversation, Austin was kind
enough to provide us with aquick update on what's been
going on. He'll share that withyou right after this. But then
(01:03):
from there, we dive into therituals and rhythms that support
creative work, how boundarieshelp protect attention, and what
it means to truly pay attentionin a world full of noise.
Austin's reflections arethoughtful, funny, and
incredibly useful, whetheryou're a writer, an artist, or
just trying to find a better wayto move through your day. So
(01:25):
without further ado, let's getinto it. Here's my conversation
with Austin Kleon. But beforethat, let's hear from Austin
himself as to what's been goingon in his world since our
conversation almost a decadeago.
Austin Kleon (01:38):
Hi, Mike, and hi, Mike's listeners. Been a while
since we talked. I somehow havemanaged not to publish another
book yet. I find that it's a lotmore fun reading books than it
is writing them. But I amworking on a new book.
It's gonna come out next year.It's called Don't Call It Art,
and it's a list of 10 thingsthat I learned from being around
(01:59):
my creative kids when they werereally little. It's about having
fun, not taking your work tooseriously, and going about your
art and creative work with asense of play. And other than
that, I've had a really fun timewith my weekly newsletter, which
has become a twice weeklynewsletter, actually. So if you
like what you hear today inthis, interview, I hope you'll
(02:22):
pop over to austincleon.com andsign up for my weekly newsletter
because I think we havesomething like close to 300,000
readers now, and it's myfavorite thing that I do online.
So thanks.
Mike Vardy (02:53):
Thanks so much for joining me, Austin. It's been
it's been something that I'vebeen wanting to do for quite
some time.
Austin Kleon (02:58):
Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Mike Vardy (03:01):
So you've got a new book coming out. And actually,
as of as of now, it's it'spretty much out in the wild.
It's keep going 10 ways to staycreative in good times and bad.
This seems to be the book thatcreatives need right about now.
Austin Kleon (03:14):
I I hope so. I mean, I I think everybody needs
it. I needed it. I mean, that'swhy I wrote it. It's it's a
funny thing because I you know,my other books were written for
other people.
Steal Like an Artist was writtenfor, like, a younger, dumber
version of myself. Show YourWork was written for my audience
who kept asking me all thesequestions about self promotion.
(03:37):
This book was the first bookthat I wrote because I needed to
read it myself. And so it sortof is a departure in that sense,
you know, and I and I think,like a lot of people,
particularly in The States, wekind of, you know, you keep we
just keep waking up everymorning, and it seems like
(03:58):
things have gotten dumber andmeaner overnight. And to add to
that, I think every creativeperson I know is kind of hitting
up against the wall of realizingthat, like, creative work
doesn't necessarily ever get anyeasier, you know, that it's
always kind of a struggle toconstantly reinvent and and come
(04:21):
up with new ideas.
And so I wanted to write a bookabout how to have a more long
term approach to this stuff andto simply pull yourself through
the days.
Mike Vardy (04:31):
Well, one of the things that you talk about right
out of the gate in the book, andthis is something that I know
will appeal to the productivityfolks that are listening, is the
idea of because there's so muchkind of chaos may not be the
right word. I'm gonna use itanyways. In the day to day life,
the importance of havingroutinization and being and
having routines. You talk aboutlike a daily routine. What does
(04:51):
yours look like, and why do youthink that having a daily
routine, maybe not just even amorning routine, but something
that is consistent throughoutthe day or even just a morning
and evening routine is soimportant?
Austin Kleon (05:01):
That's a great, great question. I personally
think that I think creative workis like I think it's a verb.
It's like an activity. It's likeyou're an athlete or something,
you know? I think think it'sHaruki Murakami who's written
(05:22):
about how much training to runhelps him write novels.
But I think that, you know,creative work is about getting
in there every day and andhaving a daily practice, and I
think routine is the thing thatreally makes sure that you do
that practice every day. If Ihad to describe my routine, I'd
(05:44):
probably borrow John Waters'quip that he thinks things up in
the morning, and he sells themin the afternoon. So the morning
is kind of my creative time. Iget up with our kids who are
super young. I have a six yearold and a four year old boys,
(06:06):
and we get up in the morning, wehave breakfast, and we kind of
putter around, and then my wifewill get up, and I'll get her
coffee and breakfast, and thenI'll come up, and I'll write for
a couple hours.
And then we have lunch together,and I get my kid on the school
bus, and then I come upstairsand I do all the things that
(06:27):
kind of the the more admin basedstuff, you know, I'll answer
emails. I'll do a podcast likewe're doing now. You know, I'll
do the kind of more business endstuff, and there's something
about having that routine. And Ikeep fairly nine to five hours,
(06:47):
I would say, like, just like abanker, basically, banker's
hours. And I I think for me,there's something about the
morning that's more more I'vealways been kind of a morning
person, and that's where I tryto, you know, cram all my
creative work into.
And then the afternoon, I'vealways thought is this weird
mongrel time as Dickens calledit, where I don't know that many
(07:10):
people who are afternoon people.So I kind of you know, this is
the time where I like to takecalls and stuff like that. And
then in the evening, I just tryto unplug and hang out with my
family, and then I read a bunch.So that's pretty much like
generally what the day lookslike. And then there's always a
walk in there somewhere.
I walk with my wife every day.We take about a three or four
(07:33):
mile walk. So
Mike Vardy (07:34):
One of the things that you bring up in the book is
the idea of having a place, likea place where you can go and
kind of do the creative work.And I think that I've talked
about this a little bit before,about having productivity zones
in my office where certain workhappens in certain places. And
I've seen your I mean, you makeno bones about sharing that,
(07:57):
both on your blog as well as inthe book. How did you come to
the decision of what your youcall it a bliss station looks
like, but also how has itevolved, and does it continue to
evolve?
Austin Kleon (08:12):
So, yeah, the bliss station idea is something
I stole from Joseph Campbell,and his idea that you had to
have a place or a certain hourof the day where you kind of
felt safe and secure, and youcould kind of access your more
creative side. The thing thatI'm always really zoomed in on
(08:37):
with that is that he saysthere's a place or a time, and
so I think sometimes for some ofus, you know, if you're a mom
with young children, you mightnot have a place because you're
in this crammed house orwhatever, but you might have a
time, you know? So, like, youmight be able to take nap time
(08:58):
or the few hours before yourkids get up or at night or
something like that. So I thinksometimes, you know, the
Cadillac treatment would be, youyou know, the really luxurious
thing would to be have a placeand a time. But I think if you
don't have time, a place willhelp a lot.
You know, like if you just needto squeeze things in, a
(09:20):
dedicated place helps. And thenI think if you don't have a
place, then time can be yourfriend. But I think that there's
something about when you do thatdaily practice or you do that
thing that gets you in the modeevery day, it helps to return to
a place to be regular about itor to do it at a certain time.
(09:44):
And there's something about therepetition, I think, that it's
it's ritualized. You know?
It's like when you sit down at adesk, you know, okay. It's time
for this work. And I actuallyhave two you know, you mentioned
different zones for doingdifferent kinds of work. I
actually have an analog desk,and I have a digital desk in my
(10:05):
office. And so right now, I'm atthe digital desk because I'm,
you know, I'm talking to you,and we're on Skype and doing
that kind of thing.
And then my analog desk doesn'thave anything electronic on it.
It's just paper and pencils andnotebooks and stuff. And I have
a set time for to go there, youknow, in the morning and try to
(10:27):
let the ideas happen. And oncethe ideas happen, I'll pop over
to the digital desk and, like,write about them for a while or
I'll, you know, blog somethingor share online. And a lot of my
day is a kind of dance betweenthose two desks.
Mike Vardy (10:42):
One of the things that and I think it was Jean
Cleese that said that in orderto be truly creative, you need
time and space. You can't haveone and expect to put your great
creative work out there, andsame thing with the other. So if
you have too much time and notenough space, you feel cramped,
you feel constrained. And if youhave too much space, but not
enough not enough time, you feelhurried. And I think that one of
the things people get caught upin, and I'd love to hear your
(11:02):
thoughts on this, is just thepace of the world and the pace
of the day.
How do you combat that? Because,I mean, yes, when you get into
your own space and you have yourown things going on, and I I
know you mentioned in the bookabout the idea of and I don't do
this either, waking up andjumping onto any of these, you
know, myriad of news sites tolearn about what's going on in
the world is not exactly thebest way to start your day. But
(11:25):
how do you combat, like, thisthis speed of life and this idea
that it's go go go fast fastfast now now now in in a world
where you're trying to reallyput forth your best possible
creative work?
Austin Kleon (11:38):
It's a constant struggle, you know? I mean, it's
nothing that I have completelyfigured out, and I'm just as
lost some days as other people.But I do know that, you know,
what I know for sure is thatcreativity is definitely about
connection, and that you have tobe connected to the world in
(11:59):
order to be influenced andinspired by it and to have
something to say about it. Butthen you also have to disconnect
from the world long enough todiscover what it is that you
actually have to say about it orwhat your work is. And so it's
really this dance betweenconnection and disconnection
that that makes the work, andthat is actually part of the
(12:23):
work.
And for me, it's just beingconnected is easy. I mean, you
know, I'm connected all daylong. We all are. I mean, I've
got my phone in front of me, youknow, too often, but the trick
is disconnecting. I just thinkthe easiest way to disconnect is
to not connect in the firstplace.
(12:45):
So I just that's why I love themorning so much. I mean, I
really try not to check email orget on Twitter or Instagram or
any of that stuff in themorning. I fail a lot, you know,
but I just try to schedule, andthis is where the routine comes
in. I just try to scheduledisconnection time, you know,
where no one can find me and I'mjust in the zone, you know, but
(13:10):
it's difficult. And it'sparticularly difficult with
children, and particularly whenyou're at home with children
because interruption is the solefact of your life as a parent.
Mike Vardy (13:23):
I've got it's spring break here right now as we're
recording this, so both of mykids are at home. I've got a
fourteen year old and an eightyear old. So they have a bit
more self management controlthan I think you're sprouting to
after. And actually, here's aninteresting thing that that I
wanna talk about boundariesbecause I think that that you've
you've just touched on that, theidea of having these boundaries
and these constraints because Ithink they're needed. One of the
(13:45):
things that I've done is, and Idid this for years because I've
been working home for years, isI got a simple, you know, like
the hotel do not disturb signsthat you hang outside your door.
Right? Bone in. Yeah. So all Idid was was I have and it's the
only like, I have it outside mydoor, and if my door is open,
come on in. If my door is shut,please knock first, and then
I'll respond.
If the door is shut with thedoor knocker on it, don't even
(14:08):
don't even in fact, what's funnyis my son to this day, and this
has been like five years in themaking, he assumes that I'm
doing a podcast if there is asign on the door. Even though I
might be doing a coaching callor something else like that, or
I might not be doing anything atall in terms of meeting with
someone, I've just there's thisboundary that's been created.
How important for you aresetting up, like, just simple
boundaries that you can adhereto, and then, again, making sure
(14:31):
that you respect them so thatothers do as well?
Austin Kleon (14:35):
Oh, man. So important and so hard. They're
just so young right now thatthey just don't really
understand that, you know, whatdo you mean dad has to go work?
You know? It's funny because mymy kids just think that they
don't really understand thatpeople go to jobs.
(14:57):
Their idea of what work is is sobizarrely twisted. And it's
funny because my father-in-lawis a great writer, but he writes
for a newspaper. So he has to goto, like, to the office every
day. And we were staying withthem for a while, and he would
get dressed and, like, ready forwork. And my kids would just be
(15:17):
like, what do you mean grandgrandpa's where is he going?
Why is he dressed up? And sothey just don't really
understand work, and and I amI'm pretty fluid right now as
far as, like, whether we'replaying or we're working. Like,
I had Owen, my oldest, in thestudio with me today just
(15:38):
because he was being such a painto his mom, and and we were
just, like, working together.And I don't know. Boundaries are
weird right now because I justdon't have that many.
But, like, you know, today, I'mI've done exactly what you do,
which is, like, the door'sclosed if not locked, and
(15:59):
there's a sign, a do not disturbsign, and, you know, everybody
knows what's going on. So but Ithink that, you know, it's you
the biggest thing that I thinkabout boundaries is something
that my wife said, and she andshe said, if you never go to
(16:19):
work, you never get to leavework. And so that is
particularly helpful, I think,for people who work at home,
which is if you're never indedicated work mode, then you
never get out of work mode. Youknow? It's just kind of this
like so I think that's why forme, like, the hours are so
helpful to just like, no.
(16:40):
I keep bankers hours. Like, Idon't check email after dinner,
you know, or, like, I don't jumpon the computer first thing in
the morning, you know, to havethose boundaries of I I think
that's actually a Cleese thing.He says boundaries of time and
boundaries of space, you know?And to have those boundaries is
is essential, I think.
Mike Vardy (17:00):
Well, and I think one of the things that you talk
about in the book, and this isthis is not necessarily new, go
figure from the guy who wroteSteal Like an Artist, is the
idea of, yes, you're and I'm acreative too, so I get this. See
things whatever you're lookingat, whenever you're out in the
world, you will see things, andit could inspire you. So you
talk the idea of having anotebook with you or a phone
with you, I think that stillallows you to kind of foster
(17:24):
that creative side of youwithout necessarily breaking a
boundary. Right? Like, youquickly take a picture.
You kind of know what thatmeans, or you'll revisit it
later, and we'll talk a bit moreabout, you know, the mess and
and and and all that stuff alittle bit later. But I think
that that element needs to bethere too, because then you've
got some flexibility built intoit so that you're not feeling,
(17:44):
hey. Okay. I've punched theclock. It's done.
I've got to shut off my creativebrain because, let's face it, it
doesn't shut off.
Austin Kleon (17:53):
Yeah. I mean, that's you never I mean, I think
that is the big trade off with awith a life of creative work
because it's just, you know,you're you're just never off,
really. I mean, you're nevercompletely done with it, and
you're never completelyunplugged. I mean, that's
(18:14):
something that my wife is justsuch a great kind of gauge for
this for me is whenever I'mfeeling extremely lazy or like I
haven't done a lot lately. Imean, she just reminds me all
the time that, like, you know,you're just never off.
Like, you're always you know,you've always got your notebook
in your pocket. You know? Imean, you're you're never off.
(18:37):
So but I but I do think thatjust because your mind isn't off
doesn't mean that you need inputfrom others. You know?
I think that's the that's thereal thing is to not be pulled
by any anyone, to to do your ownkind of to be doing your own
pulling at a certain point. Youknow? I I I feel like during the
(18:59):
day, you know, the minute youopen Twitter or you open email,
someone can pull your mind inanother direction that you might
not want it to be pulled. Youknow? And so it's more of like a
freedom thing.
Even though you're always on andyour brain's always on, like,
it's more about the freedom ofpointing your attention in the
(19:20):
direction you want it to gorather than having it scattered.
Mike Vardy (20:30):
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hit the shelves. If you've beenlistening for a while, you've
probably heard me allude to it.This is the book where I lay out
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And listen. If your favoritebookstore doesn't have it, just
(20:52):
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books are sold today.
Now, let's get back to the show.See, I'm a big believer that
productivity isn't about speedand efficiency and all that. I
(21:14):
believe it's a marriage ofintention and attention. I
think, after reading your workfor a number of years, again,
going through Keep Going, thatseems to be a really prevalent
message in there. It's likewhere your attention goes, and
this comes up in the bookactually, the idea of attention.
(21:34):
How do you help, or how do weget more people to realize that
as much as time moves on, andagain, you touch on this later
in the book as well, to thinkthings in terms of attention
more necessarily than, let'ssay, the passage of time?
Austin Kleon (21:48):
Yeah. I mean, I think attention can alter time.
I mean, we know what that and Ithink you can just do some
simple experiments to kind ofprove that. I mean, everyone's
had that kinda relativerelativity experience where
you're completely immersed insomething and the hours just fly
(22:09):
by, you know, versus watchingthe clock tick. That's just one
example, but to really getpeople to understand that your
life is really what you payattention to, that, like, that
is exactly what life is made of,is just a really hard step.
And it's hard to, particularlyin writing, talking to writers,
(22:35):
trying to get them to understandthat, like, your work is made up
of what you pay attention to,and it's and then you the way
that you kind of discover whatit is that you have to say is
that you pay attention to whatyou pay attention to. As Amy
Krause Rosenthal said, the lategreat Amy, and she's in the
(22:59):
book, I I just love that, youknow, paying attention to what
you pay attention to. It's it'sit's kind of a it's a line that
that has two meanings. One, it'sa caution. You know?
It's a cautionary thing. Like,well, just pay attention to what
you pay attention to becausewhat you pay attention to is
(23:19):
your life. And then the otherside of it is the way to figure
out what your life is and whatyou're up to is to pay attention
to what you've been payingattention to, you know? So I in
a very concrete way, like a lotof people talk about writing a
diary and the kind of the a lotof people talk about diaries in
(23:43):
terms of the therapeutic now. Alot of people write diaries
because it makes them feel goodin the moment or they're getting
something off their chest, orit's therapeutic at the time,
and then they never go backthrough their diaries.
But I'm one of those people Idon't maybe I'm strange, but I
find that rereading your diariesis a matter of orientation. It
(24:08):
really shows you where you'vebeen and in what direction
you've been headed. And maybeit's just because my memory for
what happens to me is soterrible, but when I go back
through my notebooks, it's ait's a matter of, like, pattern
recognition. Like, I can reallyfigure out, you know, what it is
(24:31):
that I'm actually trying to getat here this week, you know,
like what's been what's beenpreoccupying me, and and I just
find so many clues by going backthrough my notebooks that that
pay attention to what you payattention to is just like a
really powerful thing.
Mike Vardy (24:48):
Well, if you're strange, then I'm strange
because I do the same thing. Goback and I actually make a point
of I actually have and this iswhere I think you talked about
the idea of having a memory thatneeds remember almost like a
reminder of what happened,because I tend to use because I
capture so much that I now havebecome this person that relies
(25:11):
on the capture habit more thanthe retention habit, because my
journaling and where I put itends up becoming the thing that
I can go back and reflect upon.And then you can course correct.
I'm not a guy who necessarilydoes what the traditional weekly
review or anything like that.I'll go back and look at it's
kind of like Star Trek.
Right? Like the captain's log.Here's where we were. Here's
(25:32):
where we are now. Here's wherewe're going.
And then, oh, crap. We veeredway off course. How the hell did
that happen? Oh, this is how itwas because I was feeling this
way or because I didn't payattention to this. Do you do you
think that because you you ofthe the fact you're so prolific
with what you captured, thatthat may have that that you need
to journal and diarize because,hey.
(25:52):
Listen. My mind isn'tnecessarily being a warehouse.
It's now being, you know, afactory, which is what it really
is designed to do.
Austin Kleon (26:00):
I mean, that's an interesting way of putting it. I
I've always felt like I had areally terrific memory for
things that I read or thingsthat I hear or things that I
take in through media almost.Like, I I can remember things
that I read. I can rememberthings I watch. I can remember
(26:22):
things I listen to.
I have a really bad memory forwhat happens to me, and I I
can't figure out what that saysabout me. Maybe that just I've
been distracted, you know, frommy life by all these different
forms of media that I love, butI don't know for sure what that
(26:42):
means about me. I just know itworks, but I think that, you
know, I just think the mostpoisonous thing about our modern
moment right now is thateveryone wants you to be
somewhere other than where youare right now. Like, if you
(27:04):
think about, you know, whereyou're grounded in the world
right now, like, what your, youknow, where your feet are
resting and what you're lookingat in front of you and, like,
what you're feeling and thatplace, literally everything in
the world wants you to thinkabout something else than that.
You know?
I mean and it's in the interestof the media companies to do
(27:28):
that, you know, to pull you awayfrom your own life into these
other places and times. And and,of course, you know, sometimes
we want to be somewhere else.You know? That's what art and
literature and film andeverything does for us, but I
think the coolest thing thatmaking art and making literature
(27:54):
and making film can do is to,you know, kinda train you to pay
more attention to where you arein the world. And I think that's
what it also does for the readeror the viewer is that it trains
them to really pay attention totheir own lives.
And I think we're losing some ofthat through just the endless
(28:18):
stream of constant bombardmentof media that we get now through
Twitter and Facebook and allthat stuff.
Mike Vardy (28:28):
You know, when as I go through your work, not just
this book, and this book is fullof this stuff, but when I go
through your your work, there'sa lot of, you know, reference to
material that you've read thatisn't from, you know,
necessarily the modern moment,like blog posts or books that
are recent. Like, we're lookingat like Thoreau, And even books
(28:52):
that, you know, you're like, oh,like, I forgot about that
person, or I never or or I nevereven I never even thought that
this person could relate tonecessarily to like, Brian Eno.
I know he's a creative, but it'slike, he's a music like, there's
there's that connection thatyou've talked about earlier, and
you're able to connect thosethose ideas, those thoughts to
your work. Do you find yourselflooking to the older texts, the
(29:14):
older media, the older more andmore for to inform not only your
work, but maybe the messageyou're trying to put out there,
as opposed to say what we'reseeing now. I'm seeing that more
and more, and some of that stuffis just timeless, if anything,
we need that stuff now more thanever before.
Austin Kleon (29:36):
Yeah. I think if you're like a serious thinker
or, you know, I don't think ofmyself as a very serious person,
actually. I'm kind of more of aI don't know how I think of
myself, but it's not necessarilyserious. But if you're a student
of your craft and you're astudent of writing and art and
you're not going back as far asyou can go, I mean, you're
(29:59):
you're really hobbling yourself.I mean, there it sounds really,
you know, it's this soundsabsurd, but I'm not sure there's
a lot of progress in art.
I mean, I I as far as linearprogress goes, I think that
there are cycles, but I thinkthat, you know, as human beings,
(30:20):
we kinda circle the same thingsover and over. And I just find,
for me personally, there'ssomething about reading old
texts that makes it just strangeenough that you will do the work
of relating what they're writingabout to your own moment. So
(30:41):
when you read Thoreau, and he'slike, I have given up reading
the weekly newspaper because,like, I just can't be two places
at one time. There's justsomething so, like you know,
when I read him writing aboutthat in his journal, it just it
makes such a greater impact thanreading a blog post someone
(31:03):
writes about how Twitter is justmaking them so upset, you know,
because there's there's justthis universal feeling when I go
back in time with Thoreau whereit's just like, here's a dude
who, you know, a hundred andfifty years ago, he was like he
was dealing with the same exactproblem. It just wasn't so
massive.
You know? And then you kindareadjust yourself because you're
(31:25):
like, okay. Well, if a weeklynewspaper was too much for
Thoreau, maybe a weekly paperwould be the perfect amount for
me. You know what I mean? So butthere's there's just something
about, like, I just think we'rein a culture of the now and, you
know, to to divorce yourselffrom human history is it's it's,
(31:50):
you know, it's it's a kind ofmalnourishment, you know, to to
not honor what came before you.
And, of course, there are alwaysnew problems, so there's always
new writing to be done, but, youknow, the part of the joy for me
of being a writer is to helppeople go back upstream, so to
(32:13):
speak, like swim back upstreamto find their way to other
things that they might not havebeen passed down.
Mike Vardy (32:20):
As we get close to wrapping up, I wanna share one
piece from the book that I youknow, as I got close to the end
and, again, anyone who'slistening right now, which is
obviously the person listeningright now, you should be picking
up this book because there is somuch great stuff in here, but
this one particular I mean, theblackout artwork at the end. I
plant my garden because whatelse can I do but fool around
(32:41):
with time? So I wanna ask you,how do you fool around with
time?
Austin Kleon (32:47):
Well, we're doing it. You know? We're doing it
right now. We're fooling aroundwith time. I mean, I think that,
you know, time is the thing youget, and you don't know how much
time you get and how you howmuch time you're gonna get, but
I think time is exactly whatwe're up against, and it's
(33:09):
exactly the the real kind ofcurrency that we get to spend in
this life.
And I think how you spend yourtime is is you know, Annie
Dillard, she says, you know, howyou spend your days is how you
spend your life, you know? Andso to not waste it, And if
you're gonna waste it, to wasteit deliciously. You know? To
(33:34):
really to waste it in the bestway you can, I think, is is is
the best thing you can do, butthat's that's all we're doing?
You know?
We're just playing around withtime, the time we get, and we're
just filling the days. Andhopefully, you just fill them as
well as you can.
Mike Vardy (33:51):
Austin, thanks for joining me today on the show. Of
course, can get Keep Going, 10ways to stay creative in good
times and bad on Amazon. Whereelse can people get it, and
where else can people learn moreabout you and your work, which
they definitely should do?
Austin Kleon (34:03):
Well, I I always encourage everyone to head to
their local bookstore and checkout a copy there. And if they
don't have one, get Hellmoor toone, and you could also check
out your local library. Head inthere. And if you wanna hang out
with me, I'm at austincleon.com.
Mike Vardy (34:27):
That's a wrap on this episode. If you liked what
you heard, the best way tosupport a productive
conversation is to share it orleave a quick rating or review
wherever you're listening. Youcan find everything we mentioned
at mikevardy.com/podcast59eight.Thanks for listening, and until
next time, I'm Mike Vardy, thehost of a productive
(34:47):
conversation reminding you tostop doing productive and start
being productive. See you later.
Before we get started with the episode, I just
(00:02):
wanna give you a quick heads upthat a productive conversation
has officially moved hosts. Notme, the place where we host the
podcast. So if you're hearingthis, everything worked just
fine. But if you ever have anyissues, you can always find the
latest episodes ataproductiveconversation.transistor.fm.
(00:22):
Now that we've gotten that outof the way, let's get on with
the show.
(00:42):
Welcome to A ProductiveConversation. I'm Mike Barty,
and it is way back week, whichmeans we revisit a conversation
from way back one, and it's withnone other than Austin Kleon.
Now before we get into thatconversation, Austin was kind
enough to provide us with aquick update on what's been
going on. He'll share that withyou right after this. But then
(01:03):
from there, we dive into therituals and rhythms that support
creative work, how boundarieshelp protect attention, and what
it means to truly pay attentionin a world full of noise.
Austin's reflections arethoughtful, funny, and
incredibly useful, whetheryou're a writer, an artist, or
just trying to find a better wayto move through your day. So
(01:25):
without further ado, let's getinto it. Here's my conversation
with Austin Kleon. But beforethat, let's hear from Austin
himself as to what's been goingon in his world since our
conversation almost a decadeago.
Austin Kleon (01:38):
Hi, Mike, and hi, Mike's listeners. Been a while
since we talked. I somehow havemanaged not to publish another
book yet. I find that it's a lotmore fun reading books than it
is writing them. But I amworking on a new book.
It's gonna come out next year.It's called Don't Call It Art,
and it's a list of 10 thingsthat I learned from being around
(01:59):
my creative kids when they werereally little. It's about having
fun, not taking your work tooseriously, and going about your
art and creative work with asense of play. And other than
that, I've had a really fun timewith my weekly newsletter, which
has become a twice weeklynewsletter, actually. So if you
like what you hear today inthis, interview, I hope you'll
(02:22):
pop over to austincleon.com andsign up for my weekly newsletter
because I think we havesomething like close to 300,000
readers now, and it's myfavorite thing that I do online.
So thanks.
Mike Vardy (02:53):
Thanks so much for joining me, Austin. It's been
it's been something that I'vebeen wanting to do for quite
some time.
Austin Kleon (02:58):
Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Mike Vardy (03:01):
So you've got a new book coming out. And actually,
as of as of now, it's it'spretty much out in the wild.
It's keep going 10 ways to staycreative in good times and bad.
This seems to be the book thatcreatives need right about now.
Austin Kleon (03:14):
I I hope so. I mean, I I think everybody needs
it. I needed it. I mean, that'swhy I wrote it. It's it's a
funny thing because I you know,my other books were written for
other people.
Steal Like an Artist was writtenfor, like, a younger, dumber
version of myself. Show YourWork was written for my audience
who kept asking me all thesequestions about self promotion.
(03:37):
This book was the first bookthat I wrote because I needed to
read it myself. And so it sortof is a departure in that sense,
you know, and I and I think,like a lot of people,
particularly in The States, wekind of, you know, you keep we
just keep waking up everymorning, and it seems like
(03:58):
things have gotten dumber andmeaner overnight. And to add to
that, I think every creativeperson I know is kind of hitting
up against the wall of realizingthat, like, creative work
doesn't necessarily ever get anyeasier, you know, that it's
always kind of a struggle toconstantly reinvent and and come
(04:21):
up with new ideas.
And so I wanted to write a bookabout how to have a more long
term approach to this stuff andto simply pull yourself through
the days.
Mike Vardy (04:31):
Well, one of the things that you talk about right
out of the gate in the book, andthis is something that I know
will appeal to the productivityfolks that are listening, is the
idea of because there's so muchkind of chaos may not be the
right word. I'm gonna use itanyways. In the day to day life,
the importance of havingroutinization and being and
having routines. You talk aboutlike a daily routine. What does
(04:51):
yours look like, and why do youthink that having a daily
routine, maybe not just even amorning routine, but something
that is consistent throughoutthe day or even just a morning
and evening routine is soimportant?
Austin Kleon (05:01):
That's a great, great question. I personally
think that I think creative workis like I think it's a verb.
It's like an activity. It's likeyou're an athlete or something,
you know? I think think it'sHaruki Murakami who's written
(05:22):
about how much training to runhelps him write novels.
But I think that, you know,creative work is about getting
in there every day and andhaving a daily practice, and I
think routine is the thing thatreally makes sure that you do
that practice every day. If Ihad to describe my routine, I'd
(05:44):
probably borrow John Waters'quip that he thinks things up in
the morning, and he sells themin the afternoon. So the morning
is kind of my creative time. Iget up with our kids who are
super young. I have a six yearold and a four year old boys,
(06:06):
and we get up in the morning, wehave breakfast, and we kind of
putter around, and then my wifewill get up, and I'll get her
coffee and breakfast, and thenI'll come up, and I'll write for
a couple hours.
And then we have lunch together,and I get my kid on the school
bus, and then I come upstairsand I do all the things that
(06:27):
kind of the the more admin basedstuff, you know, I'll answer
emails. I'll do a podcast likewe're doing now. You know, I'll
do the kind of more business endstuff, and there's something
about having that routine. And Ikeep fairly nine to five hours,
(06:47):
I would say, like, just like abanker, basically, banker's
hours. And I I think for me,there's something about the
morning that's more more I'vealways been kind of a morning
person, and that's where I tryto, you know, cram all my
creative work into.
And then the afternoon, I'vealways thought is this weird
mongrel time as Dickens calledit, where I don't know that many
(07:10):
people who are afternoon people.So I kind of you know, this is
the time where I like to takecalls and stuff like that. And
then in the evening, I just tryto unplug and hang out with my
family, and then I read a bunch.So that's pretty much like
generally what the day lookslike. And then there's always a
walk in there somewhere.
I walk with my wife every day.We take about a three or four
(07:33):
mile walk. So
Mike Vardy (07:34):
One of the things that you bring up in the book is
the idea of having a place, likea place where you can go and
kind of do the creative work.And I think that I've talked
about this a little bit before,about having productivity zones
in my office where certain workhappens in certain places. And
I've seen your I mean, you makeno bones about sharing that,
(07:57):
both on your blog as well as inthe book. How did you come to
the decision of what your youcall it a bliss station looks
like, but also how has itevolved, and does it continue to
evolve?
Austin Kleon (08:12):
So, yeah, the bliss station idea is something
I stole from Joseph Campbell,and his idea that you had to
have a place or a certain hourof the day where you kind of
felt safe and secure, and youcould kind of access your more
creative side. The thing thatI'm always really zoomed in on
(08:37):
with that is that he saysthere's a place or a time, and
so I think sometimes for some ofus, you know, if you're a mom
with young children, you mightnot have a place because you're
in this crammed house orwhatever, but you might have a
time, you know? So, like, youmight be able to take nap time
(08:58):
or the few hours before yourkids get up or at night or
something like that. So I thinksometimes, you know, the
Cadillac treatment would be, youyou know, the really luxurious
thing would to be have a placeand a time. But I think if you
don't have time, a place willhelp a lot.
You know, like if you just needto squeeze things in, a
(09:20):
dedicated place helps. And thenI think if you don't have a
place, then time can be yourfriend. But I think that there's
something about when you do thatdaily practice or you do that
thing that gets you in the modeevery day, it helps to return to
a place to be regular about itor to do it at a certain time.
(09:44):
And there's something about therepetition, I think, that it's
it's ritualized. You know?
It's like when you sit down at adesk, you know, okay. It's time
for this work. And I actuallyhave two you know, you mentioned
different zones for doingdifferent kinds of work. I
actually have an analog desk,and I have a digital desk in my
(10:05):
office. And so right now, I'm atthe digital desk because I'm,
you know, I'm talking to you,and we're on Skype and doing
that kind of thing.
And then my analog desk doesn'thave anything electronic on it.
It's just paper and pencils andnotebooks and stuff. And I have
a set time for to go there, youknow, in the morning and try to
(10:27):
let the ideas happen. And oncethe ideas happen, I'll pop over
to the digital desk and, like,write about them for a while or
I'll, you know, blog somethingor share online. And a lot of my
day is a kind of dance betweenthose two desks.
Mike Vardy (10:42):
One of the things that and I think it was Jean
Cleese that said that in orderto be truly creative, you need
time and space. You can't haveone and expect to put your great
creative work out there, andsame thing with the other. So if
you have too much time and notenough space, you feel cramped,
you feel constrained. And if youhave too much space, but not
enough not enough time, you feelhurried. And I think that one of
the things people get caught upin, and I'd love to hear your
(11:02):
thoughts on this, is just thepace of the world and the pace
of the day.
How do you combat that? Because,I mean, yes, when you get into
your own space and you have yourown things going on, and I I
know you mentioned in the bookabout the idea of and I don't do
this either, waking up andjumping onto any of these, you
know, myriad of news sites tolearn about what's going on in
the world is not exactly thebest way to start your day. But
(11:25):
how do you combat, like, thisthis speed of life and this idea
that it's go go go fast fastfast now now now in in a world
where you're trying to reallyput forth your best possible
creative work?
Austin Kleon (11:38):
It's a constant struggle, you know? I mean, it's
nothing that I have completelyfigured out, and I'm just as
lost some days as other people.But I do know that, you know,
what I know for sure is thatcreativity is definitely about
connection, and that you have tobe connected to the world in
(11:59):
order to be influenced andinspired by it and to have
something to say about it. Butthen you also have to disconnect
from the world long enough todiscover what it is that you
actually have to say about it orwhat your work is. And so it's
really this dance betweenconnection and disconnection
that that makes the work, andthat is actually part of the
(12:23):
work.
And for me, it's just beingconnected is easy. I mean, you
know, I'm connected all daylong. We all are. I mean, I've
got my phone in front of me, youknow, too often, but the trick
is disconnecting. I just thinkthe easiest way to disconnect is
to not connect in the firstplace.
(12:45):
So I just that's why I love themorning so much. I mean, I
really try not to check email orget on Twitter or Instagram or
any of that stuff in themorning. I fail a lot, you know,
but I just try to schedule, andthis is where the routine comes
in. I just try to scheduledisconnection time, you know,
where no one can find me and I'mjust in the zone, you know, but
(13:10):
it's difficult. And it'sparticularly difficult with
children, and particularly whenyou're at home with children
because interruption is the solefact of your life as a parent.
Mike Vardy (13:23):
I've got it's spring break here right now as we're
recording this, so both of mykids are at home. I've got a
fourteen year old and an eightyear old. So they have a bit
more self management controlthan I think you're sprouting to
after. And actually, here's aninteresting thing that that I
wanna talk about boundariesbecause I think that that you've
you've just touched on that, theidea of having these boundaries
and these constraints because Ithink they're needed. One of the
(13:45):
things that I've done is, and Idid this for years because I've
been working home for years, isI got a simple, you know, like
the hotel do not disturb signsthat you hang outside your door.
Right? Bone in. Yeah. So all Idid was was I have and it's the
only like, I have it outside mydoor, and if my door is open,
come on in. If my door is shut,please knock first, and then
I'll respond.
If the door is shut with thedoor knocker on it, don't even
(14:08):
don't even in fact, what's funnyis my son to this day, and this
has been like five years in themaking, he assumes that I'm
doing a podcast if there is asign on the door. Even though I
might be doing a coaching callor something else like that, or
I might not be doing anything atall in terms of meeting with
someone, I've just there's thisboundary that's been created.
How important for you aresetting up, like, just simple
boundaries that you can adhereto, and then, again, making sure
(14:31):
that you respect them so thatothers do as well?
Austin Kleon (14:35):
Oh, man. So important and so hard. They're
just so young right now thatthey just don't really
understand that, you know, whatdo you mean dad has to go work?
You know? It's funny because mymy kids just think that they
don't really understand thatpeople go to jobs.
(14:57):
Their idea of what work is is sobizarrely twisted. And it's
funny because my father-in-lawis a great writer, but he writes
for a newspaper. So he has to goto, like, to the office every
day. And we were staying withthem for a while, and he would
get dressed and, like, ready forwork. And my kids would just be
(15:17):
like, what do you mean grandgrandpa's where is he going?
Why is he dressed up? And sothey just don't really
understand work, and and I amI'm pretty fluid right now as
far as, like, whether we'replaying or we're working. Like,
I had Owen, my oldest, in thestudio with me today just
(15:38):
because he was being such a painto his mom, and and we were
just, like, working together.And I don't know. Boundaries are
weird right now because I justdon't have that many.
But, like, you know, today, I'mI've done exactly what you do,
which is, like, the door'sclosed if not locked, and
(15:59):
there's a sign, a do not disturbsign, and, you know, everybody
knows what's going on. So but Ithink that, you know, it's you
the biggest thing that I thinkabout boundaries is something
that my wife said, and she andshe said, if you never go to
(16:19):
work, you never get to leavework. And so that is
particularly helpful, I think,for people who work at home,
which is if you're never indedicated work mode, then you
never get out of work mode. Youknow? It's just kind of this
like so I think that's why forme, like, the hours are so
helpful to just like, no.
(16:40):
I keep bankers hours. Like, Idon't check email after dinner,
you know, or, like, I don't jumpon the computer first thing in
the morning, you know, to havethose boundaries of I I think
that's actually a Cleese thing.He says boundaries of time and
boundaries of space, you know?And to have those boundaries is
is essential, I think.
Mike Vardy (17:00):
Well, and I think one of the things that you talk
about in the book, and this isthis is not necessarily new, go
figure from the guy who wroteSteal Like an Artist, is the
idea of, yes, you're and I'm acreative too, so I get this. See
things whatever you're lookingat, whenever you're out in the
world, you will see things, andit could inspire you. So you
talk the idea of having anotebook with you or a phone
with you, I think that stillallows you to kind of foster
(17:24):
that creative side of youwithout necessarily breaking a
boundary. Right? Like, youquickly take a picture.
You kind of know what thatmeans, or you'll revisit it
later, and we'll talk a bit moreabout, you know, the mess and
and and and all that stuff alittle bit later. But I think
that that element needs to bethere too, because then you've
got some flexibility built intoit so that you're not feeling,
(17:44):
hey. Okay. I've punched theclock. It's done.
I've got to shut off my creativebrain because, let's face it, it
doesn't shut off.
Austin Kleon (17:53):
Yeah. I mean, that's you never I mean, I think
that is the big trade off with awith a life of creative work
because it's just, you know,you're you're just never off,
really. I mean, you're nevercompletely done with it, and
you're never completelyunplugged. I mean, that's
(18:14):
something that my wife is justsuch a great kind of gauge for
this for me is whenever I'mfeeling extremely lazy or like I
haven't done a lot lately. Imean, she just reminds me all
the time that, like, you know,you're just never off.
Like, you're always you know,you've always got your notebook
in your pocket. You know? Imean, you're you're never off.
(18:37):
So but I but I do think thatjust because your mind isn't off
doesn't mean that you need inputfrom others. You know?
I think that's the that's thereal thing is to not be pulled
by any anyone, to to do your ownkind of to be doing your own
pulling at a certain point. Youknow? I I I feel like during the
(18:59):
day, you know, the minute youopen Twitter or you open email,
someone can pull your mind inanother direction that you might
not want it to be pulled. Youknow? And so it's more of like a
freedom thing.
Even though you're always on andyour brain's always on, like,
it's more about the freedom ofpointing your attention in the
(19:20):
direction you want it to gorather than having it scattered.
Mike Vardy (20:30):
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And listen. If your favoritebookstore doesn't have it, just
(20:52):
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nurturing your productivepotential. Pick it up anywhere
books are sold today.
Now, let's get back to the show.See, I'm a big believer that
productivity isn't about speedand efficiency and all that. I
(21:14):
believe it's a marriage ofintention and attention. I
think, after reading your workfor a number of years, again,
going through Keep Going, thatseems to be a really prevalent
message in there. It's likewhere your attention goes, and
this comes up in the bookactually, the idea of attention.
(21:34):
How do you help, or how do weget more people to realize that
as much as time moves on, andagain, you touch on this later
in the book as well, to thinkthings in terms of attention
more necessarily than, let'ssay, the passage of time?
Austin Kleon (21:48):
Yeah. I mean, I think attention can alter time.
I mean, we know what that and Ithink you can just do some
simple experiments to kind ofprove that. I mean, everyone's
had that kinda relativerelativity experience where
you're completely immersed insomething and the hours just fly
(22:09):
by, you know, versus watchingthe clock tick. That's just one
example, but to really getpeople to understand that your
life is really what you payattention to, that, like, that
is exactly what life is made of,is just a really hard step.
And it's hard to, particularlyin writing, talking to writers,
(22:35):
trying to get them to understandthat, like, your work is made up
of what you pay attention to,and it's and then you the way
that you kind of discover whatit is that you have to say is
that you pay attention to whatyou pay attention to. As Amy
Krause Rosenthal said, the lategreat Amy, and she's in the
(22:59):
book, I I just love that, youknow, paying attention to what
you pay attention to. It's it'sit's kind of a it's a line that
that has two meanings. One, it'sa caution. You know?
It's a cautionary thing. Like,well, just pay attention to what
you pay attention to becausewhat you pay attention to is
(23:19):
your life. And then the otherside of it is the way to figure
out what your life is and whatyou're up to is to pay attention
to what you've been payingattention to, you know? So I in
a very concrete way, like a lotof people talk about writing a
diary and the kind of the a lotof people talk about diaries in
(23:43):
terms of the therapeutic now. Alot of people write diaries
because it makes them feel goodin the moment or they're getting
something off their chest, orit's therapeutic at the time,
and then they never go backthrough their diaries.
But I'm one of those people Idon't maybe I'm strange, but I
find that rereading your diariesis a matter of orientation. It
(24:08):
really shows you where you'vebeen and in what direction
you've been headed. And maybeit's just because my memory for
what happens to me is soterrible, but when I go back
through my notebooks, it's ait's a matter of, like, pattern
recognition. Like, I can reallyfigure out, you know, what it is
(24:31):
that I'm actually trying to getat here this week, you know,
like what's been what's beenpreoccupying me, and and I just
find so many clues by going backthrough my notebooks that that
pay attention to what you payattention to is just like a
really powerful thing.
Mike Vardy (24:48):
Well, if you're strange, then I'm strange
because I do the same thing. Goback and I actually make a point
of I actually have and this iswhere I think you talked about
the idea of having a memory thatneeds remember almost like a
reminder of what happened,because I tend to use because I
capture so much that I now havebecome this person that relies
(25:11):
on the capture habit more thanthe retention habit, because my
journaling and where I put itends up becoming the thing that
I can go back and reflect upon.And then you can course correct.
I'm not a guy who necessarilydoes what the traditional weekly
review or anything like that.I'll go back and look at it's
kind of like Star Trek.
Right? Like the captain's log.Here's where we were. Here's
(25:32):
where we are now. Here's wherewe're going.
And then, oh, crap. We veeredway off course. How the hell did
that happen? Oh, this is how itwas because I was feeling this
way or because I didn't payattention to this. Do you do you
think that because you you ofthe the fact you're so prolific
with what you captured, thatthat may have that that you need
to journal and diarize because,hey.
(25:52):
Listen. My mind isn'tnecessarily being a warehouse.
It's now being, you know, afactory, which is what it really
is designed to do.
Austin Kleon (26:00):
I mean, that's an interesting way of putting it. I
I've always felt like I had areally terrific memory for
things that I read or thingsthat I hear or things that I
take in through media almost.Like, I I can remember things
that I read. I can rememberthings I watch. I can remember
(26:22):
things I listen to.
I have a really bad memory forwhat happens to me, and I I
can't figure out what that saysabout me. Maybe that just I've
been distracted, you know, frommy life by all these different
forms of media that I love, butI don't know for sure what that
(26:42):
means about me. I just know itworks, but I think that, you
know, I just think the mostpoisonous thing about our modern
moment right now is thateveryone wants you to be
somewhere other than where youare right now. Like, if you
(27:04):
think about, you know, whereyou're grounded in the world
right now, like, what your, youknow, where your feet are
resting and what you're lookingat in front of you and, like,
what you're feeling and thatplace, literally everything in
the world wants you to thinkabout something else than that.
You know?
I mean and it's in the interestof the media companies to do
(27:28):
that, you know, to pull you awayfrom your own life into these
other places and times. And and,of course, you know, sometimes
we want to be somewhere else.You know? That's what art and
literature and film andeverything does for us, but I
think the coolest thing thatmaking art and making literature
(27:54):
and making film can do is to,you know, kinda train you to pay
more attention to where you arein the world. And I think that's
what it also does for the readeror the viewer is that it trains
them to really pay attention totheir own lives.
And I think we're losing some ofthat through just the endless
(28:18):
stream of constant bombardmentof media that we get now through
Twitter and Facebook and allthat stuff.
Mike Vardy (28:28):
You know, when as I go through your work, not just
this book, and this book is fullof this stuff, but when I go
through your your work, there'sa lot of, you know, reference to
material that you've read thatisn't from, you know,
necessarily the modern moment,like blog posts or books that
are recent. Like, we're lookingat like Thoreau, And even books
(28:52):
that, you know, you're like, oh,like, I forgot about that
person, or I never or or I nevereven I never even thought that
this person could relate tonecessarily to like, Brian Eno.
I know he's a creative, but it'slike, he's a music like, there's
there's that connection thatyou've talked about earlier, and
you're able to connect thosethose ideas, those thoughts to
your work. Do you find yourselflooking to the older texts, the
(29:14):
older media, the older more andmore for to inform not only your
work, but maybe the messageyou're trying to put out there,
as opposed to say what we'reseeing now. I'm seeing that more
and more, and some of that stuffis just timeless, if anything,
we need that stuff now more thanever before.
Austin Kleon (29:36):
Yeah. I think if you're like a serious thinker
or, you know, I don't think ofmyself as a very serious person,
actually. I'm kind of more of aI don't know how I think of
myself, but it's not necessarilyserious. But if you're a student
of your craft and you're astudent of writing and art and
you're not going back as far asyou can go, I mean, you're
(29:59):
you're really hobbling yourself.I mean, there it sounds really,
you know, it's this soundsabsurd, but I'm not sure there's
a lot of progress in art.
I mean, I I as far as linearprogress goes, I think that
there are cycles, but I thinkthat, you know, as human beings,
(30:20):
we kinda circle the same thingsover and over. And I just find,
for me personally, there'ssomething about reading old
texts that makes it just strangeenough that you will do the work
of relating what they're writingabout to your own moment. So
(30:41):
when you read Thoreau, and he'slike, I have given up reading
the weekly newspaper because,like, I just can't be two places
at one time. There's justsomething so, like you know,
when I read him writing aboutthat in his journal, it just it
makes such a greater impact thanreading a blog post someone
(31:03):
writes about how Twitter is justmaking them so upset, you know,
because there's there's justthis universal feeling when I go
back in time with Thoreau whereit's just like, here's a dude
who, you know, a hundred andfifty years ago, he was like he
was dealing with the same exactproblem. It just wasn't so
massive.
You know? And then you kindareadjust yourself because you're
(31:25):
like, okay. Well, if a weeklynewspaper was too much for
Thoreau, maybe a weekly paperwould be the perfect amount for
me. You know what I mean? So butthere's there's just something
about, like, I just think we'rein a culture of the now and, you
know, to to divorce yourselffrom human history is it's it's,
(31:50):
you know, it's it's a kind ofmalnourishment, you know, to to
not honor what came before you.
And, of course, there are alwaysnew problems, so there's always
new writing to be done, but, youknow, the part of the joy for me
of being a writer is to helppeople go back upstream, so to
(32:13):
speak, like swim back upstreamto find their way to other
things that they might not havebeen passed down.
Mike Vardy (32:20):
As we get close to wrapping up, I wanna share one
piece from the book that I youknow, as I got close to the end
and, again, anyone who'slistening right now, which is
obviously the person listeningright now, you should be picking
up this book because there is somuch great stuff in here, but
this one particular I mean, theblackout artwork at the end. I
plant my garden because whatelse can I do but fool around
(32:41):
with time? So I wanna ask you,how do you fool around with
time?
Austin Kleon (32:47):
Well, we're doing it. You know? We're doing it
right now. We're fooling aroundwith time. I mean, I think that,
you know, time is the thing youget, and you don't know how much
time you get and how you howmuch time you're gonna get, but
I think time is exactly whatwe're up against, and it's
(33:09):
exactly the the real kind ofcurrency that we get to spend in
this life.
And I think how you spend yourtime is is you know, Annie
Dillard, she says, you know, howyou spend your days is how you
spend your life, you know? Andso to not waste it, And if
you're gonna waste it, to wasteit deliciously. You know? To
(33:34):
really to waste it in the bestway you can, I think, is is is
the best thing you can do, butthat's that's all we're doing?
You know?
We're just playing around withtime, the time we get, and we're
just filling the days. Andhopefully, you just fill them as
well as you can.
Mike Vardy (33:51):
Austin, thanks for joining me today on the show. Of
course, can get Keep Going, 10ways to stay creative in good
times and bad on Amazon. Whereelse can people get it, and
where else can people learn moreabout you and your work, which
they definitely should do?
Austin Kleon (34:03):
Well, I I always encourage everyone to head to
their local bookstore and checkout a copy there. And if they
don't have one, get Hellmoor toone, and you could also check
out your local library. Head inthere. And if you wanna hang out
with me, I'm at austincleon.com.
Mike Vardy (34:27):
That's a wrap on this episode. If you liked what
you heard, the best way tosupport a productive
conversation is to share it orleave a quick rating or review
wherever you're listening. Youcan find everything we mentioned
at mikevardy.com/podcast59eight.Thanks for listening, and until
next time, I'm Mike Vardy, thehost of a productive
(34:47):
conversation reminding you tostop doing productive and start
being productive. See you later.
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