February 7, 2020 • 17 mins
George Noory and Gary Gagliardi, discuss Sun Tzu’s The Art of War, Gary sheds light on the ancient Chinese philosopher's principles of "winning without conflict" and how these ideas can apply to peoples' personal lives.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on
iHeart Radio and welcome back George. Nor with you with
Gary Gagliardi and his websites are linked up at Coast
to Coast dot com. Gary. Do you think successful generals
like George Patton, for example, may have read the Art
of War? Almost certainly. Yeah. As a matter of fact,
(00:21):
it's taught in the United States military academies and all
going all the way back to Napoleon. That was supposedly
the first person that studied the art of introwest to
that is you translation was a French translation brought back
by the Jesuit missionaries. That's back in the seventeen hundreds,
wasn't it. Yeah, it was like eighteenth Yeah, seventeen hundreds, right,
(00:45):
was seventeen whatever? Yeah, I can't remember exactly seventeen seventy two.
I've done my homework for you, Gary, good job. You
have said that. Go ahead. But the point is that
it's not only about war. It's about how you manage
human hierarchies. You know. The idea that suns who taught
(01:06):
was that a good general doesn't fight a hundred battles
and win one hundred battles. A good general finds a
way to win without fighting a single battle. And the
way you do that is developed positions where people don't
want to fight you, and instead they want to join you,
they want to support you. That's a good point too.
You say that the English translations of the book, including
(01:28):
your own, may be misleading, Tell me about that. Well.
A lot of the English translations, any translation done before
nineteen seventy is going to be incomplete. But you know,
the Sun Zoo's work was banned, It was passed down
through the aristocratic families. There were seven different versions, you know.
(01:48):
The early English translations all came at the end of
the eighteenth century, at the beginning that excuse me, the
end of it at nineteenth century, at the beginning of
the twentieth century, and they were all from fragmentary versions.
The first complete version wasn't put together till nineteen seventy
in Taiwan, and there's only been a few translations of
that version. In mine is one of them. But all
(02:10):
of them are misleading just simply because they're done in
the context to war and people read them that way.
The book is really not about fighting, It's about the
human psychology that helps us understand our competitive position how
to advance it. You know, we read these translations and
(02:33):
I'll tell I did it myself when I first read it,
and I read it as fighting, and I read it
as battling, and I read it as you know, the
kind of you know, stuff you have to do to
take somebody else's position. But what the book really teaches
is how to develop positions of your own where you
don't have to fight people, where you move into openings
where people not only let you move up in the hierarchy,
(02:56):
but they actually help you and support you in moving up.
And that's what Sensu's book taught. He taught that, you know,
if an actual battle where people are killed takes place,
well there's a mistake that's been made. Point general thought
they could win, and at least one of them is wrong,
and probably both of them are wrong because they're both
going to suffer more than they need to by choosing
(03:17):
to fight one another. His idea of winning was cooperation,
wasn't it exactly? People think that that competition is the
opposite of cooperation, but in reality, competition is required to
create competition, because you can't compete with everybody. You have
to choose who you're going to cooperate with and how,
and that means that you have competing alternatives. And anytime
(03:41):
there's a choice to be made, that's when competition takes place.
Competition is really making a choice. And you know it's
true in sports you work those choices out by people
playing on the field, but in human minds, who they
choose to support has to be worked out in your head.
You know, the army that wins is the army that
(04:02):
has the most support from their people, from their country,
from their soldiers. You know, and Sun too taught that
size wasn't strength. What is strength. Great strength is unity
and focus and that's you know, what most people lack
today is unity and focus. They aren't focused, and they
you know a lot of people don't have any goals.
(04:22):
And you know, the workers really one about human psychology
and the fact that our competitive positions are what we're
trying to maintain in those positions only exist in human minds.
And you say his works basically can be used in
personal relationships, parenting, all kinds of things. I think that's fantastic. Yeah,
(04:45):
I've done. Yeah, it's funny because at first I was
doing this only in business because that's where my reputation,
and I had some success because I built an eight
five hundred company and it was known for that. But
then I got cancer and I went through treatment and
all this stuff, and I saw that people, you know,
were literally dying because they didn't know how to make
(05:06):
good decisions. They didn't know how to weigh their alternatives,
they didn't know how to get information, they didn't know
how to position themselves to survive. And so I began
change my focus and began writing books about personal relationships.
I had a terrible first marriage and a great second marriage,
and so I'd learned about that. In my second marriage,
(05:28):
I was using Sun DU's ideas and about parenting and
about you know, helping kids, you know, manage through school
and things like that, and you know, I ended up
writing a book called The Golden Key to Strategy that
won Ben Franklin Award is the best self help psychology
book of the year. And you know, it was very
rewarding thing to go through something like cancer and realize
(05:51):
that I could help other people other than just business people.
Is that why you've kind of disappeared over the last
several years? Was it that well. Um, I really stopped
doing my formal training about five years ago, and you know,
i'd done in the software business of my company I've
worked with. I have a short attention span at last
(06:13):
about fifteen years, and I did I did software for
about fifteen years. And when I made my money there,
I could have obviously started other software with nineteen nineties
when I sold my company, and I'd been very successful,
and I could have done more of that, but I
had enough money that I wasn't worried about. I could
do anything I wanted, and so I really loved Sunzu.
(06:35):
So I did that for about fifteen years. And after
you know, my books, I've won a number of awards,
I traveled the world. My books have been translated all
over the world. I got to you know, meet and
work with you know the world leadings organizations and great
people all over the world. You know, we had trainers
at one point all over the world using my stuff.
(06:57):
And but after a while, you know, i'd been there
and done that, and I just, you know, it got
to be too much like work. And I've always been
a pretty lazy fellow, and you know, I still want
to help people, but the Sun's As far as traveling
around and doing all the work I was doing, promoting
and stuff, I just didn't didn't have the fire in
(07:19):
the beility to do it. Everybody needs a mission, you know,
and and I think the big problem with most people
is they don't have a mission. And you know, the
chemicals that keep track of our natural hierarchies, you know,
the chemicals that that you know give us satisfaction really
depend upon us having a mission, because well we get
satisfaction is when we're moving toward our mission mission and
(07:41):
moving toward our goals. You've got to be making progress
to those goals when you attain certain goals. And you know,
I did probably everything I could do in the world
of software and then in the world of sun Zoo,
and I never had a goal to be a billionaire
or anything. I just was interested in these ideas and
I didn't have any more goals there. So I wanted,
(08:03):
you know, I wanted to get into something new. I
always am looking for something new, and the Sunzu stuff,
I'm still working on it. As a matter of fact,
I'm doing a new translation I think to to you know,
I understand it a lot more today than I did
twenty years ago when I did my translation nineteen ninety
and I'm not quite twenty years ago, but a little
(08:24):
more in that. But the do a new translation of
that at some point, but I'm not doing all the
traveling work that I used to do. How many times
do you have to read the book The Art of
War before you get it? I don't think reading the
book unless you can read Chinese is going to do
it for you. I think, what, Yeah, I read, I'd
(08:48):
read and only I read probably six or seven translations,
and I was kind of confused because they were all different.
They're all different. When I was starting, when I was
working in business and trying to use these ideas in business,
and I didn't really understand it until I started trying
to teach other people these ideas. And it was really
in teaching that I really kind of came closer to
(09:09):
mastering them. But then I taught myself ancient Chinese and
started studying the original work. And the original work is
kind of magical. It's it's uh chinesecient. Chinese isn't like
isn't a spoken language. It's like a conceptual language. It's
like it's like mathematical formulas. You know, reading sun Zoo
is more like reading eucleph than it is like reading
(09:30):
a self help book. And uh, you know, the ideas
are so deep that you can almost get lost in there.
You know, they're very deep ideas. And you know when
you find out over times that these ideas are connected
to or we're just discovering today in modern science. You know,
this idea of hierarchies and how these hierarchies worked and
(09:51):
how how people interact. You know that stuff was all
in sun Zoo twenty five years ago. You know, there's
new science today about the fire aspects of personality. Will
Sundo came very close to describing the same thing twenty
five hundred years ago without the computers to figure it
all out. So it's kind of an amazing work. You know.
The fact is is that when people have a mission.
(10:16):
You know, suns you said there were five aspects to
define a competitive position. There's your mission, which is your goals.
You have to have a goal because the same chemicals
that regulate are positive and negative moods are tied to
making progress to our goals. You also have to deal
with the ground. The ground is what gives you rewards.
(10:36):
Our ground that we compete in is human society, and
it's other people that can reward us, or fight against
us or support us. Then you have the climate. Things
are always changing. You were just talking about the new
epidemic the coronavirus, you know, and that's something that's changing.
And the changes in the climate are unpredictable and uncontrollable.
(10:57):
And there's also the things that create new opportunities and
new threats that you have to protect yourself from. And
then you have your personal capabilities, the skills that you've
learned over time, and your basic personality. You know what
you're really like, and all those things create your competitive position.
And that position is being judged all the time by
(11:19):
other people. And you're judging people all the time, and
we all hate to be judged. You hate to be judged.
I hate to be judged. But the fact is is
that's the nature of reality. We're all judging one another.
And Sundo's system is all about how we get people
to judge us better. And we almost think about our
position in competitive strategy. The best way to think about
(11:42):
your position is that they're not really judging you, They're
just judging what they see of your position. You know,
there's judging the things that you're communicating about your position
to them, and a lot of it's about you know
what your mission is, and you know what kind of
character you have and stuff like that, and all that
has been trollable. I think of it like an avatar
and a computer game. You know, you're trying to win
(12:04):
the computer game, and your avatar has certain skills, and
you manage your competitive position like you manage an avatar
and a computer game. Only you can do that in
the real world and you can advance in the real
world continually, just like you know avatars can advance in
computer games. Does he predict things? Is he very prophetic? Well,
(12:27):
only in the sense that he says that things work
a certain way. He actually has nine stages. He describes
that competitive situations go through and you know how to
how to define those situations and how to respond to them.
But in those situations tend to follow one after another,
(12:50):
and they're too complicated to go into now. But he
his system does predict certain things, you know, like companies
will grow large and then they'll die because of the
accumulation of bureaucracies, things like that. He predicts that there's
certain things. You know, people that fight all the time,
you know that they're going to expend too many, too
(13:11):
much of their resources on fighting all the time, and
they're going to get weaker for it. Because we all
have unlimited desires, but we only have limited resources. And
you have to focus your limited resources on things that
you really want and not use them in destructive ways
because when you push other people, they're going to push back,
and you can expend all your resources doing that instead
(13:33):
of improving your position. So he really wasn't a champion
of battles. He was a champion of talking your way
out of it. Basically, well not. His system is one
of positioning. In other words, you try and find positions,
and you do this by looking for opportunities. And when
an opportunity is is an opening, an what he called
(13:56):
unoccupied ground that others will rather support than oppose. And
in social context, you know, in the context of our
lives today, it means openings are things, are needs that
aren't being fulfilled by others, and if you can find
a need and fill it with the skills you have,
(14:18):
you know others will support you and they won't fight
you if you try and go after for example, your
boss's position. Why you're going to get all kinds of
opposition and rent all kinds of company politics and stuff
like that. But if you go to your boss and
instead of you know, like most people go to their
boss and they bring them problems. Oh I need more money,
that's a problem. Or this guy's doing this, that's a problem. Yeah, right,
(14:43):
bring a solution, even even better than resolution is is
find out what he's looking for, what his goals are,
and help him with what he's trying to do. Instead
of what you're trying to do, focus on what the
people that can improve your life are looking for and
(15:04):
what's changing around them. You know, they're having problems dealing
with and uh, you know, use your use your ability
to satisfy those things. I mean I got into computers.
I was in in consumer product sales, but you know,
computers came in and you know, salespeople, sales managers had
to deal with computer reports and stuff. And I'd learned
(15:25):
a little bit about computers and colors. So I began
helping my boss with with you know, their their computer
reports and stuff like that, understanding them and understanding how
they played a role in sales and stuff like that.
And you know, eventually, you know, that got me promoted
in my job, It got me better sales territories. But
eventually I ended up in computers, and you know, learning
(15:46):
about working in the computer industry and starting my own
software and that made a world of difference, changed your life. Yeah,
it did that. It was it was a great experience,
great time. And also I saw that that was an opening.
Once more change is created, was what creates opportunities. That
climate is one of the five characteristics of a position,
(16:08):
and that new computer technology was just coming out, this
as the mini computer, the microcomputer revolution, when the PC
was introduced and all that stuff, and it was just
there's a lot of openings there. There's a lot of
things that needed to be done. And you know, I
was able to start a company that addressed one of
those issues. And you know, there were lots of companies
(16:28):
that did the same thing. But you know, I wasn't
trying to be the next you know, I came from
consumer products. I wasn't trying to be the next proctering gamble.
I was going into a new area where the companies
were just being invented. By reading the Art of War.
At what point did you get it and really understand it. Well,
(16:49):
I'm still getting things all the time. I mean, I
was just reading it today, the affection on deception and
thinking through. You know, as I've gotten old, or I've realized,
as you get older, you do learn some things, strangely enough,
And one of the things that I've learned is that
you know, deception doesn't it doesn't work over time. You know,
(17:13):
it always fails. You know everybody gets you know, nobody
gets away with anything in life. Everyone. Listen to more
Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at one am Eastern,
and go to Coast to Coast am dot com for
more
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on
iHeart Radio and welcome back George. Nor with you with
Gary Gagliardi and his websites are linked up at Coast
to Coast dot com. Gary. Do you think successful generals
like George Patton, for example, may have read the Art
of War? Almost certainly. Yeah. As a matter of fact,
(00:21):
it's taught in the United States military academies and all
going all the way back to Napoleon. That was supposedly
the first person that studied the art of introwest to
that is you translation was a French translation brought back
by the Jesuit missionaries. That's back in the seventeen hundreds,
wasn't it. Yeah, it was like eighteenth Yeah, seventeen hundreds, right,
(00:45):
was seventeen whatever? Yeah, I can't remember exactly seventeen seventy two.
I've done my homework for you, Gary, good job. You
have said that. Go ahead. But the point is that
it's not only about war. It's about how you manage
human hierarchies. You know. The idea that suns who taught
(01:06):
was that a good general doesn't fight a hundred battles
and win one hundred battles. A good general finds a
way to win without fighting a single battle. And the
way you do that is developed positions where people don't
want to fight you, and instead they want to join you,
they want to support you. That's a good point too.
You say that the English translations of the book, including
(01:28):
your own, may be misleading, Tell me about that. Well.
A lot of the English translations, any translation done before
nineteen seventy is going to be incomplete. But you know,
the Sun Zoo's work was banned, It was passed down
through the aristocratic families. There were seven different versions, you know.
(01:48):
The early English translations all came at the end of
the eighteenth century, at the beginning that excuse me, the
end of it at nineteenth century, at the beginning of
the twentieth century, and they were all from fragmentary versions.
The first complete version wasn't put together till nineteen seventy
in Taiwan, and there's only been a few translations of
that version. In mine is one of them. But all
(02:10):
of them are misleading just simply because they're done in
the context to war and people read them that way.
The book is really not about fighting, It's about the
human psychology that helps us understand our competitive position how
to advance it. You know, we read these translations and
(02:33):
I'll tell I did it myself when I first read it,
and I read it as fighting, and I read it
as battling, and I read it as you know, the
kind of you know, stuff you have to do to
take somebody else's position. But what the book really teaches
is how to develop positions of your own where you
don't have to fight people, where you move into openings
where people not only let you move up in the hierarchy,
(02:56):
but they actually help you and support you in moving up.
And that's what Sensu's book taught. He taught that, you know,
if an actual battle where people are killed takes place,
well there's a mistake that's been made. Point general thought
they could win, and at least one of them is wrong,
and probably both of them are wrong because they're both
going to suffer more than they need to by choosing
(03:17):
to fight one another. His idea of winning was cooperation,
wasn't it exactly? People think that that competition is the
opposite of cooperation, but in reality, competition is required to
create competition, because you can't compete with everybody. You have
to choose who you're going to cooperate with and how,
and that means that you have competing alternatives. And anytime
(03:41):
there's a choice to be made, that's when competition takes place.
Competition is really making a choice. And you know it's
true in sports you work those choices out by people
playing on the field, but in human minds, who they
choose to support has to be worked out in your head.
You know, the army that wins is the army that
(04:02):
has the most support from their people, from their country,
from their soldiers. You know, and Sun too taught that
size wasn't strength. What is strength. Great strength is unity
and focus and that's you know, what most people lack
today is unity and focus. They aren't focused, and they
you know a lot of people don't have any goals.
(04:22):
And you know, the workers really one about human psychology
and the fact that our competitive positions are what we're
trying to maintain in those positions only exist in human minds.
And you say his works basically can be used in
personal relationships, parenting, all kinds of things. I think that's fantastic. Yeah,
(04:45):
I've done. Yeah, it's funny because at first I was
doing this only in business because that's where my reputation,
and I had some success because I built an eight
five hundred company and it was known for that. But
then I got cancer and I went through treatment and
all this stuff, and I saw that people, you know,
were literally dying because they didn't know how to make
(05:06):
good decisions. They didn't know how to weigh their alternatives,
they didn't know how to get information, they didn't know
how to position themselves to survive. And so I began
change my focus and began writing books about personal relationships.
I had a terrible first marriage and a great second marriage,
and so I'd learned about that. In my second marriage,
(05:28):
I was using Sun DU's ideas and about parenting and
about you know, helping kids, you know, manage through school
and things like that, and you know, I ended up
writing a book called The Golden Key to Strategy that
won Ben Franklin Award is the best self help psychology
book of the year. And you know, it was very
rewarding thing to go through something like cancer and realize
(05:51):
that I could help other people other than just business people.
Is that why you've kind of disappeared over the last
several years? Was it that well. Um, I really stopped
doing my formal training about five years ago, and you know,
i'd done in the software business of my company I've
worked with. I have a short attention span at last
(06:13):
about fifteen years, and I did I did software for
about fifteen years. And when I made my money there,
I could have obviously started other software with nineteen nineties
when I sold my company, and I'd been very successful,
and I could have done more of that, but I
had enough money that I wasn't worried about. I could
do anything I wanted, and so I really loved Sunzu.
(06:35):
So I did that for about fifteen years. And after
you know, my books, I've won a number of awards,
I traveled the world. My books have been translated all
over the world. I got to you know, meet and
work with you know the world leadings organizations and great
people all over the world. You know, we had trainers
at one point all over the world using my stuff.
(06:57):
And but after a while, you know, i'd been there
and done that, and I just, you know, it got
to be too much like work. And I've always been
a pretty lazy fellow, and you know, I still want
to help people, but the Sun's As far as traveling
around and doing all the work I was doing, promoting
and stuff, I just didn't didn't have the fire in
(07:19):
the beility to do it. Everybody needs a mission, you know,
and and I think the big problem with most people
is they don't have a mission. And you know, the
chemicals that keep track of our natural hierarchies, you know,
the chemicals that that you know give us satisfaction really
depend upon us having a mission, because well we get
satisfaction is when we're moving toward our mission mission and
(07:41):
moving toward our goals. You've got to be making progress
to those goals when you attain certain goals. And you know,
I did probably everything I could do in the world
of software and then in the world of sun Zoo,
and I never had a goal to be a billionaire
or anything. I just was interested in these ideas and
I didn't have any more goals there. So I wanted,
(08:03):
you know, I wanted to get into something new. I
always am looking for something new, and the Sunzu stuff,
I'm still working on it. As a matter of fact,
I'm doing a new translation I think to to you know,
I understand it a lot more today than I did
twenty years ago when I did my translation nineteen ninety
and I'm not quite twenty years ago, but a little
(08:24):
more in that. But the do a new translation of
that at some point, but I'm not doing all the
traveling work that I used to do. How many times
do you have to read the book The Art of
War before you get it? I don't think reading the
book unless you can read Chinese is going to do
it for you. I think, what, Yeah, I read, I'd
(08:48):
read and only I read probably six or seven translations,
and I was kind of confused because they were all different.
They're all different. When I was starting, when I was
working in business and trying to use these ideas in business,
and I didn't really understand it until I started trying
to teach other people these ideas. And it was really
in teaching that I really kind of came closer to
(09:09):
mastering them. But then I taught myself ancient Chinese and
started studying the original work. And the original work is
kind of magical. It's it's uh chinesecient. Chinese isn't like
isn't a spoken language. It's like a conceptual language. It's
like it's like mathematical formulas. You know, reading sun Zoo
is more like reading eucleph than it is like reading
(09:30):
a self help book. And uh, you know, the ideas
are so deep that you can almost get lost in there.
You know, they're very deep ideas. And you know when
you find out over times that these ideas are connected
to or we're just discovering today in modern science. You know,
this idea of hierarchies and how these hierarchies worked and
(09:51):
how how people interact. You know that stuff was all
in sun Zoo twenty five years ago. You know, there's
new science today about the fire aspects of personality. Will
Sundo came very close to describing the same thing twenty
five hundred years ago without the computers to figure it
all out. So it's kind of an amazing work. You know.
The fact is is that when people have a mission.
(10:16):
You know, suns you said there were five aspects to
define a competitive position. There's your mission, which is your goals.
You have to have a goal because the same chemicals
that regulate are positive and negative moods are tied to
making progress to our goals. You also have to deal
with the ground. The ground is what gives you rewards.
(10:36):
Our ground that we compete in is human society, and
it's other people that can reward us, or fight against
us or support us. Then you have the climate. Things
are always changing. You were just talking about the new
epidemic the coronavirus, you know, and that's something that's changing.
And the changes in the climate are unpredictable and uncontrollable.
(10:57):
And there's also the things that create new opportunities and
new threats that you have to protect yourself from. And
then you have your personal capabilities, the skills that you've
learned over time, and your basic personality. You know what
you're really like, and all those things create your competitive position.
And that position is being judged all the time by
(11:19):
other people. And you're judging people all the time, and
we all hate to be judged. You hate to be judged.
I hate to be judged. But the fact is is
that's the nature of reality. We're all judging one another.
And Sundo's system is all about how we get people
to judge us better. And we almost think about our
position in competitive strategy. The best way to think about
(11:42):
your position is that they're not really judging you, They're
just judging what they see of your position. You know,
there's judging the things that you're communicating about your position
to them, and a lot of it's about you know
what your mission is, and you know what kind of
character you have and stuff like that, and all that
has been trollable. I think of it like an avatar
and a computer game. You know, you're trying to win
(12:04):
the computer game, and your avatar has certain skills, and
you manage your competitive position like you manage an avatar
and a computer game. Only you can do that in
the real world and you can advance in the real
world continually, just like you know avatars can advance in
computer games. Does he predict things? Is he very prophetic? Well,
(12:27):
only in the sense that he says that things work
a certain way. He actually has nine stages. He describes
that competitive situations go through and you know how to
how to define those situations and how to respond to them.
But in those situations tend to follow one after another,
(12:50):
and they're too complicated to go into now. But he
his system does predict certain things, you know, like companies
will grow large and then they'll die because of the
accumulation of bureaucracies, things like that. He predicts that there's
certain things. You know, people that fight all the time,
you know that they're going to expend too many, too
(13:11):
much of their resources on fighting all the time, and
they're going to get weaker for it. Because we all
have unlimited desires, but we only have limited resources. And
you have to focus your limited resources on things that
you really want and not use them in destructive ways
because when you push other people, they're going to push back,
and you can expend all your resources doing that instead
(13:33):
of improving your position. So he really wasn't a champion
of battles. He was a champion of talking your way
out of it. Basically, well not. His system is one
of positioning. In other words, you try and find positions,
and you do this by looking for opportunities. And when
an opportunity is is an opening, an what he called
(13:56):
unoccupied ground that others will rather support than oppose. And
in social context, you know, in the context of our
lives today, it means openings are things, are needs that
aren't being fulfilled by others, and if you can find
a need and fill it with the skills you have,
(14:18):
you know others will support you and they won't fight
you if you try and go after for example, your
boss's position. Why you're going to get all kinds of
opposition and rent all kinds of company politics and stuff
like that. But if you go to your boss and
instead of you know, like most people go to their
boss and they bring them problems. Oh I need more money,
that's a problem. Or this guy's doing this, that's a problem. Yeah, right,
(14:43):
bring a solution, even even better than resolution is is
find out what he's looking for, what his goals are,
and help him with what he's trying to do. Instead
of what you're trying to do, focus on what the
people that can improve your life are looking for and
(15:04):
what's changing around them. You know, they're having problems dealing
with and uh, you know, use your use your ability
to satisfy those things. I mean I got into computers.
I was in in consumer product sales, but you know,
computers came in and you know, salespeople, sales managers had
to deal with computer reports and stuff. And I'd learned
(15:25):
a little bit about computers and colors. So I began
helping my boss with with you know, their their computer
reports and stuff like that, understanding them and understanding how
they played a role in sales and stuff like that.
And you know, eventually, you know, that got me promoted
in my job, It got me better sales territories. But
eventually I ended up in computers, and you know, learning
(15:46):
about working in the computer industry and starting my own
software and that made a world of difference, changed your life. Yeah,
it did that. It was it was a great experience,
great time. And also I saw that that was an opening.
Once more change is created, was what creates opportunities. That
climate is one of the five characteristics of a position,
(16:08):
and that new computer technology was just coming out, this
as the mini computer, the microcomputer revolution, when the PC
was introduced and all that stuff, and it was just
there's a lot of openings there. There's a lot of
things that needed to be done. And you know, I
was able to start a company that addressed one of
those issues. And you know, there were lots of companies
(16:28):
that did the same thing. But you know, I wasn't
trying to be the next you know, I came from
consumer products. I wasn't trying to be the next proctering gamble.
I was going into a new area where the companies
were just being invented. By reading the Art of War.
At what point did you get it and really understand it. Well,
(16:49):
I'm still getting things all the time. I mean, I
was just reading it today, the affection on deception and
thinking through. You know, as I've gotten old, or I've realized,
as you get older, you do learn some things, strangely enough,
And one of the things that I've learned is that
you know, deception doesn't it doesn't work over time. You know,
(17:13):
it always fails. You know everybody gets you know, nobody
gets away with anything in life. Everyone. Listen to more
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