May 30, 2025 • 41 mins
Captain Ron welcomes Paul H. Smith who shares a remarkable death bed confession from Naval Aviator Roland Powell, detailing a 1945 UFO encounter near the Hanford Nuclear Plant.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
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and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with
Captain Wrong.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and
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(00:41):
your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Hey everyone, Captain Ron and each week on Beyond Contact,
we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of
the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from
the newest cases as we talked with the top experts.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Welcome back to Beyond Contact. I'm Captain Ron, and today
we're going to be speaking with doctor Paul Smith. Paul's
one of these guys where you could fill the whole
hour with just his resume. He's just done so many
amazing things. Most notably, of course, Paul served in the
government Stargate remote viewing Psychic Espionage Program at Fort Meade, Maryland,
and he's one of only five Army personnel to be
(01:38):
personally trained in coordinate remote viewing by Hal put Off
and Ango Swan at the famed Stanford Research Institute. Paul
retired from the Army in nineteen ninety six and founded
the Remote Viewing Instructional Services, Inc. Which offers full time,
full service remote viewing training. He's authored two books and
(01:58):
continues to write tea each consult and lecture on remote viewing.
For today's interview, Paul's going to be talking about another
one of his interests, which happens to be UFOs, and
he has an absolutely incredible story to share with us
on research he's been doing with what maybe, in fact,
one of the very first modern UFO sightings, even pre
(02:18):
dating Kenneth Arnold's famous nineteen forty seven sighting. Hey Paul,
good to see you.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
It was good to see you again.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Yes, sir, and we're going to be back this year.
You're coming to contact in the Desert. We're all very
happy about that.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
And I'm very excited. I've been, let's see, well, last
year and the year before both times, and it was
great experience. I mean, all you guys know how to
really do it upright, And I appreciate.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
That those are our first two years at the Helm,
and this year, believe it or not, seems even bigger
and better. If you can believe that we've got you.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Guys are early on the radar. I have to say,
you're inda on the right. Everybody knows what contact the
desert is. They even know it by your initial ci right, right, right.
That's been out there a lot lately. I've seen that
it's awesome, So.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
We're excited about that. So how did you get involved
in this case about Roland?
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Paul?
Speaker 4 (03:11):
This is an amazing, amazing thing that you stumbled on.
I guess how did it happen?
Speaker 5 (03:15):
I should probably give you a little background first. My
first ever involvement with UFOs was when I was a kid.
It was late fifties, early sixties. We'd get in my
neighbor's basement and we tune this old FAAM radio in
between channels, and of course you get all these weird,
staticky things coming out. We thought we were listening to UFOs,
(03:36):
And of course this is the very beginning of the
UFO adventure really in modern times, and I didn't have
much more to do with it until nineteen eighty three,
when I don't know, some folks don't know who had
Dames is He and I had a long conversation about
UFOs and I heard story, you know, I heard about
Betty and Barney Hill, I heard about Rendelsom Forrest, all
(03:56):
this stuff. First time that I'd really been exposed to it. Then,
for the next seven eight years, in the remote Viewing program,
we did a bunch of remote viewings against UFO and
et kind of targets. That's where I really got kind
of exposed to this. But for decades I kind of
held this at arm's length. I didn't like how it
(04:19):
was interfacing with remote viewing at the time because a
lot of fantasy and speculation got involved in it, and
I didn't think it was doing remote viewing much good.
This of course after it went public. But now that
we have really good foundational evidence for this, I mean,
you don't get really better evidence than, for example, the
tic TAC right military video, their sense Yeah video. I
(04:43):
counted seven different evidential streams on the tic TAC thing,
all confirming the same phenomenon, and that's how we judged
the legitimacy of a phenomenon is when you get multiple
independent evidence streams that all say the same thing, can
count on that being a legitimate, observational legitimate.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
You've talked about remote viewers seeing the same exact thing.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
In this case, I'm talking about the heart evidence. So
the Navy produced in for example, the Nimmen strike group.
You know, observationally, you don't get better evidence than that.
The skeptics who are trying to delegitimize that, they don't
know what the hell they're talking about, frankly, but that
has got me on board, and I've continued to been
involved in it, just buying the scenes really for some time.
(05:30):
I was asked back in twenty eleven to get my
little group of remote viewers to remote view a major
of a UFO event. I didn't know what it was,
because you have to be blind to the target. And
afterwards I found ot it actually was the TICTAC event.
And you know, we had a really strong corporate backing
for that. I can't say who the corporation was because
I signed an NDA that will get me in a
(05:51):
lot of trouble if they get mad. And even recently
we did another project for another defense contractor. Again they
don't want to be named, but produce some very interesting evidence.
So that's the background to this. Now what's interesting is
back in well now, I forgot the date exactly. I
(06:11):
think it's around two thousand and eight or two thousand
and nine. I was living in Austin, Texas. So I'm
an active Mormon, you know. In fact, I went to
church yesterday, right. My Mormon bishop called me up one
day and say, hey, Paul, I need your help. I said, okay,
I mean, that wasn't unusual. He's usually looking for help.
He said, I've been visiting this guy who's really on
(06:32):
his last legs. I don't remember exactly how he said that,
but that's meant. And he just lives up the street
from you, and you guys have some things in common,
and I think you would be a better fit to
interact with him. And so I said okay, and the
Bishop Dan gave me a few more word groups on this,
and then I went up to meet this guy. He
(06:54):
literally lived a block from me, and he'd been there
for like ten years. And I find out that he
has this amazing UFO experience, and I'd sort of gotten
into that beforehand, Dan It told me a little bit
about it, and so I brought along my little digital
recorder and I interviewed him. It was a kind of
(07:14):
a deathbed interview, and he told me his story. He
was there's long gaps in his conversation because he was
struggling for breath. He was on oxygen. But we had
this just amazing conversation, and he told me about an
event that happened in Pasco, actually over Hanford Nuclear Plant
outside of Pascal, Washington, the Tri Cities and southeastern Western State.
(07:38):
He was stationed there and he had kind of a
double mission and he was training this he's supposed to train,
helped train this squadron of fighter pods. They're flying F
six Well it's a little confusing, and then F six
F or an F nine F Hellcat. They're the same,
got the same name, but there one's an upgraded version
of the other. And I think these might be most
(08:01):
are piston driven. They're prejet.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
This is nineteen forty five, and firstly yet I don't
think started till late nineteen forty five, right.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
That's correct, So they were radial engines. You know. He
mentioned in our little interview that some of them were
alcohol injected to give them more more power and more
of a ceiling. So I think these may have been
the F nine fs, the more advanced kind. But there
he was training them, but they were also providing combat
cover for the Hanford plant, which was at that time
(08:30):
one of the most sensitive and most highly secret facilities
in the United States. They contruded building the bomb that
eventually got not long after that got dropped on Japan.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
I think about this is of course that we've heard
time and time again how often UFOs are associated with
specifically military nuclear sites.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Yes, and that is intriguing because they did well. There's
a long history about this. I'm reading Richard Dolan's book
right now, UFOs for the twenty first Century, and he
gets into that quite a bit. It's quite intriguing anyway.
So they get this alert the General Quarters, and they
jump in their planes and they fly and they're directed
(09:11):
to this radar bogie that's over Hanford at multiple tens
of thousands of feet. At that time, radar was little
in exact so exactly how high it was, and wrote
Roland probably didn't get informed anyway. But he's leading the
six ship Squattern and their orders were to get up
and shoot this thing down. And Roland says, of course
(09:34):
those for their orders, right, but it.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Was actually, if you're over that and think about this
a different time, nineteen forty five, Yeah, of course, UFO
wasn't even remotely in the vernacular or any.
Speaker 5 (09:45):
They had the food fighter thing, right.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Yeah, it wasn't. Yeah, during World War Two they had
some of the food fighters. But this, you know, over
America like this.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
Well over the plant. I mean, it almost does onen't
matter what it was that flew into that airspace because
of the nature of the security surround as plant. If
it had been a civilian airliner, if they couldn't get
it to land, they would have shot it down. You know,
that was their mission. And so they're going out to
do this and the problem is this thing was way
above their ceiling and they were told to use maximum power,
(10:19):
you know, maximum combat power, which is straining the capability
of the aircraft. And they were flying up and yeej
you know esh, And they didn't get close enough to
really do anything. But they did get close enough for
rolling to get a give me a really good description
of what this thing looked like.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Hold on, Paul We're going to take a quick break
right there. We're going to come back and pick it
up on the other side of the break with what
these what this UFO looked like back in nineteen forty five,
pre Kenneth Arnald. Very interesting stuff with Paul Smith. We'll
be right back here listening to Beyond Contact on the
iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network. We
(11:15):
are back on Beyond Contact. We're talking to Paul Smith. Paul,
you're telling us about they're chasing down this UFO over
the nuclear base. Go ahead and pick it up and
tell us what's happening.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
The size of this thing really astonished Roland and his
fill of pilots. He described it in various places. One
place he describes being the size of three aircraft carriers together,
and in this particular interview he described it as being
two aircraft carriers together. Now I think the three is
probably more accurate because he also said it was saucer shaped,
(11:48):
which means that it would be just as long as
it was wide, which is close to me.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
I interject something right here. What's interesting about that, what's
fascinating about that is this is nineteen forty five. The
word flying saucer was actually coined in nineteen forty seven,
yet when kennth Doarnold had his sighting. So for the
fact that this guy called it saucer shaped, do you
not find that astonishing?
Speaker 5 (12:11):
Well, not as much, And the reason for that is,
of course I'm a very simple minded guy, so I
get easily amused ball. So well, that hasn't been my
impression of you at all. So yeah, I mean, this
was like the early two thousands, and of course the
term flying saucer had been around for fifty six years
by then, so Ronald Roland using the term saucer isn't
(12:35):
particularly exceptional because this was, of course fifty six years
after Ken Arnold came up with that term, and as
a consequence, Roland had some familiarity with the UFO literature
since then, so I think he probably used that term
because he was familiar with it over that intervening period,
and the thing was basically saucer shaped. Was not a surprise, because,
(12:57):
of course, a lot of the Obbs innovations we've had
and I've been reported are described in terms of saucer shaped.
And you know, Ken can Arnold coined that term of course,
and so you know, rolling siding about this, and one
of my concerns actually at the time was that maybe
his his engagement with the UFO literature since his experience,
(13:22):
might have colored his his account a little bit. But
for reasons i'll talk about later, I think that he
probably was reporting it pretty accurately in terms of as
it happened. At the time. He's talking about this, saying
it's the size of two or three aircraft carriers hovering
in the air over Hanford. The added interest here was
that it was partially obscured by clouds, which seemed to
(13:43):
be artificially generated, like some kind of fogging mechanism or machine.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
And of course, Paul, that's another one of these things
we've heard in various UFO accounts that they seem to
kind of mask behind clouds that.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
In this case, apparently their tech wasn't working great, because
he says it was as if some of the emitters
just weren't working. So he could see a fair amount
of this thing. Part of it was obscured by clouds,
but part of it was very visible, and as he's
trying to attack it, he's getting a really good look
at this. Now I have done a little bit of
(14:20):
research to try and find out if there's a record
of this, and some other folks have tried it as well,
and we don't seem to be able to locate the
d Day Book or whatever they call it. This particular squadron.
You would think that there might be gun camera footage
as well if they fired at it. Those cameras were
designed to only work quality guns were firing. That's also
(14:42):
could easily have been lost or it wouldn't be recorded
over because then they're using real film. Right, So, at
any rate, we have his testimony about it, and he
described this big saucer shaped thing with these little ports
around it, and I forget the exact term you use
right now. The great thing about my talk is I'm
going to actually play his interview for the folks who
(15:05):
are attend. Yeah, I've had to do some editing with it,
because of course there are these long gaps. He talked
very quietly, but the wonders of modern technology allow me
to enhance the volume so it can be heard and understood,
and I'm going to edit out the long gaps that
he had.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
In Actually wonderful and it's always great hearing a first
hand account directly from the first hand witness. I always
love that.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Yeah, and he's pretty colorful and I don't mean cussing,
although that happened right now. And again he was in
the navy, right, But he's actually quite descriptive when he
talks about this, and so anyway, this thing's huge. He
talks about detail on the surface of it all that
was mostly smooth. He said that there's this kind of
(15:48):
a ridge running nears aning tails, kind of vertically from
nose to tail of this thing. I don't know if
it's a saucer shape. How do you tell where the
nose in the tail is? But maybe the ridge it
self help He said it was kind of he said
it's cone shaped. I think he might have meant a
triangular and cross section that ran around this thing. And
of course we do get some some descriptions on the
(16:09):
uap Ufou literature that mentioned a kind of a keel
that goes around the thing, you know, a keel in
terms of like a sailboat keel, except right, not sticking down,
and so that that matches what others have described. Since
so you know, he's in quite amount of detail which
I can't possibly get into here. Because I you know,
(16:30):
my memory doesn't work that well, and I don't want
to read you the transcript right now, obviously, But they
kept going up and trying to get there, and then
they course stall out when they got above their their
manageable ceiling, and they'd run out of air and they
fall down, and they go up and try and get
there and fall back down again, and it's in a
way kind of an exciting story. Finally, the thing, he said,
(16:51):
just after they tried it enough and apparently it got
satisfied whatever it was there for, he said, it just
ascended vertically at or tremendou rate of speed and disappeared.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Once again, another very frequently heard of count from UFOs.
They either take off vertically or horizontally instantly.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Yep. And of course, again this is nineteen forty five,
this is this is before so many reports have come in,
and he seemed, I mean, we're talking about a guy
who is really breathing oxygen, probably his last few breaths.
You know, he lived for about another two weeks I
guess from there. But yeah, he was clearly in some distress.
(17:34):
But he really really wanted to get this story out now.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Before even like we mentioned earlier. This is before we
had jet aircraft.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
Oh yeah, yeah, you know, there's some familiarity with it. Well,
not so much. I mean, the Germans had fielded there.
What is it two, I think is what the designation
was jet, which is of course took us somewhat by surprise,
and we were trying to capture recapture that. But I
think a lot of that was still fairly classified. Now.
(18:02):
Speaking of classified, of course you always debrief after a mission.
That that's the standard military practice. And so he and
his fellow pilots were brought in and debriefed on this,
and then they were told they could not speak about
it again for the rest of their lives. That said,
it was highly classified military information. Of course the military
(18:23):
will do that is something they don't know what it is.
They'll say, right, well, we're better off classifying it now
and admitting our error later than we are not classifying
it and have it really come back and bite us
in the butt.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
Did he speculate what he thought it was? Did he
think of it as an extraterrestrial craft or did he
think of it as another maybe a German or military He.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
Actually did not, And that's one of the more interesting
and convincing things here is that he did not state
explicitly he thought it was from outer space, or that
it was you know, extraterrest or anything like that. He didn't.
He didn't. It was kind of just the facts, Just
the facts, man, you know. It was kind of that
way he presented it, which is, of course, when you
(19:04):
get into the remote viewing world, that's what we want
to hear from a remote viewer. We want them to
describe their experience. We don't want them to speculate on
their experience, and he was pretty much doing that. Of course,
in the military you're trained to do that because again,
they want they don't want you to try and tell
them what it was. They want you to just tell
(19:26):
them exactly what happened. And that's what he was doing.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Do we ever have any testimony from the other five
pilot or four pilots that weren't.
Speaker 5 (19:34):
So that was the second thing that made me think
that he was giving me to it, giving it to
me straight. In the process of researching for this talk,
I came across something that I hadn't found in the past.
And of course, you know, the Internet gets more and
more robust every year. You know more people add stuff
to it that's been there but hasn't been available publicly,
and I think I have to go back and review this,
(19:57):
but I think it was a move on investigator who
got really interested in Roland Powell's case, and so we
went around and found at least one of Paul's squadron
mates who confirmed the story and reported it in pretty
much the same terms that Roland did.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
So well, now that's fascinating, Paul, that we are collaborating witness.
That is fantastic.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Paul.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
Let's take a quick break here, pick up the rest
of this on the other side of the break, talk
more with Paul about the other collaborating witness and about
the deathbed confession itself. You're listening to Beyond Contact right
here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal
podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Paul.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Let's pick it up right there. So you said, there's
another investigator that did, in fact find one of his
fellow pilots that saw the exact same thing.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
Yes, and pretty much confirmed everything that Roland had said.
I say everything because there's some detail that the second
guy didn't report that Roland did, and vice versa. Right,
that standard for legitimate eyewitness reporting is that no witness
sees it exactly the same way and doesn't necessarily highlight
(21:30):
the same details as somebody else does. But when they
come together the Venn diagram, when you don't put them together,
they pretty much support each other, and you know that's
that's likely to be legitimate testimony. And that was the
case with this. But my impression was that this guy
essentially was saying exactly the same thing. And as far
(21:51):
as I can tell, they never really had any contact
with each other since the event happened, so they couldn't
compare stories. And even in an only have the stories
come together, it's like these were again independent evidence streams
in a sense.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Well, these two gentlemen have went what fifty sixty seventy
years without ever telling their story. And this is a
case I've never heard about. I couldn't find it anywhere online.
It seems to me like instantly I heard this, I thought,
I wonder if there's more cases out there, people who
have had these sort of encounters and it just never
(22:30):
gets reported and it never gets you know, disability, Paul,
We've had these numerous deathbed confessions over the years of
people from you know, from Roswell, we had Philip Corso,
we had Lieutenant Walter Hunt. There's different people. Paul Hellier,
at the end of his life said a lot of things.
He came forward with, what do you think about deathbed confessions.
(22:53):
Do you think that they're stronger evidence because the person
feels they need to purge this to the world, or
do you think they're weaker because maybe at the end
of life people are a little delusional or something.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
Yeah, so that's a challenging question. Oftentimes deathbed confessions in
the legal world are taken to be more truthful than
what somebody has said during their lifetime, and of course
there's reading for that, because oftentimes people have motivations to
either be quiet about something or to tell it differently.
And when they know they're about to go and there
(23:29):
won't be any repercussions, there's a way nobody can get
even with them or whatever, then they'll come clean and
they'll they'll tell the real story. Now, of course, of course,
there is a possibility there's some simility involved or whatever,
or medical condition that alters their perceptions or memories and things,
(23:50):
and that's always a possibility, but oftentimes you can kind
of evaluate that in the course of the conversation because
people who do have some dementia or whatever, there are
obvious tells there that tell you that. And in this
case with Roland, he seemed totally totally clear that his daughter,
(24:12):
one of his daughters, was there with him, and she
was you know, she treated him like he was a
totally competent human being. You know, sometimes when when you're
dealing with someone with dementia, you kind.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Of yeah, almost.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
Now, one thing I want to add though, this wasn't
the first time he told the story. He there's been
a book that written about his life and it was
privately published. It was like by a writer and I'm
blanking on the name of the book right now, in
which it covered his whole life and then one small
part of it was about his UFO experiences. So he
(24:50):
had told it before, but it wasn't something that he
had rehearsed numerous times. I think his kids may have
heard him tell the story as well some point.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
But the other pilot is he still alive?
Speaker 5 (25:03):
Yeah, I don't know. I haven't checked in that. He was,
of course in his mid to late eighties. When this
interview took place. Yeah, so Roland died and I don't
know whatever it was two thousand and eight, whenever it was,
and I'll remember that date precisely when when I give
my talk. But but yeah, and I don't know. It'd
(25:26):
be interesting if he's still around, I'd love to give
him a call, or if he's closed, maybe visiting even
and get a second, a second take on his story
as well.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Any corroboration you can get always makes it much stronger.
Do you have other evidence that supports the fact that
this may have happened?
Speaker 5 (25:50):
So the first thing was the way he presented it
seemed to me is very straightforward and nonspeculative, Okay. The
second was this confirmation from this guy. The third sort
of was the fact that he did tell a writer
and it is in a book, and the account in
the book is pretty much I mean, there's always different
changes in different accounts of things, but the account in
(26:13):
the book pretty much confirmed it was very much, in fact,
not just pretty much, very much along the lines of
what he told to me that day. His daughter kind
of confirmed at least that, of course she went there,
but she had heard the story and she confirmed that
he'd been pretty consistent in telling this over the years,
(26:33):
and so on, and so as far as further external
objective evidence, I don't have more of that. I think
it's pretty remarkable that we have the one case of
his squadron mate, many years after the fact, also telling
the same story.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
That's a strength right there. It just doubles the credibility
of it. I always love to see that. Wasn't there
another experience he had? He had second UFO siding, didn't he?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
He did?
Speaker 5 (27:02):
He did, And it's in a way, maybe even more
remarkable than this one because of the physical effects it had.
So he had after he retired from the from the Navy,
he was still active in consulting from military kinds of stuff,
Navy kind of stuff, and he was hired, it sounds
(27:25):
like from his account, he was hired by our Chief
of Naval Operations his office to go support the Brazilian
Navy in teaching their pilots how to how to operate
off of aircraft carriers. And the Brazilian Navy had a carrier,
have a photo of it.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Wait, they have a photo of the object or the
chat the.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
Photo of the carrier. So so yeah, so you can
see what the ship was. And he was there advising
the Brazilian navy, and he talks about one time, they're
about two hundred miles off the coast, and of course
there's a little sidebar here. Brazil has a lot UFO
UAP reports a lot of them, and even some of
(28:04):
these USO under you unidentified submerged objects by coming in
and going out of the water, which there's another story
about that. Maybe if we get a chance, we'll get to. Anyway,
he's on the deck of this carrier's going along and
he notices this odd cloud off some distance away, and
it was, he said, it was quite long and with
cigar shaped, and it was kind of rolling, a rolling cloud,
(28:26):
and it was moving at a significant rate of speed,
faster than of course could be accounted for by some
cloud being blown along by the wind. And infact, was
very discreet. In other words, you know, a lot of
clouds are kind of fuzzy, and you know, and they
tend to change their shape as he goes this one,
he said, maintained its shape, continued on specific track that
(28:47):
brought it near the carrier, and I asked him how
high it was. He said, well, I wasn't thinking about
it at the time, but if I had to, had
to kind of give you an educated guest right now,
he says, about ten thousand feet up and it comes
and as it's the aircraft carrier, the entire ship heals
over towards it about twenty twenty five degrees. Roland says,
(29:08):
it heals over towards it. And as the object is going,
it's doing this, and he said, as it got further
way than the ship righted itself back up again. This
sounds like it's a cigar shaped UFO of quite large
size that is shrouded in these fake clouds but exerting
some kind of I'm gonna say magnetic because that's the
(29:30):
only thing we can think of, But it could have
been something else, some kind of magnetic pull on the
ship and causing it to lean towards the aircraft. And
we're talking a very large ship, you know, something that
may be almost as large as the object itself, maybe larger,
I don't know, but that in itself is quite remarkable.
(29:52):
Suggesting things about these these objects, assuming they're objects in
this case, that isn't usually discussed. Now we do know
about effects that UFOs have on things, shutting down systems,
activating inter intercontinibilistic missiles, causing cars to shut down, all
(30:13):
that kind of thing. But this is probably one of
the largest effects that I've heard.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
That is an exactly the amount of energy and whatever
that must take to do that. That's incredible. We're going
to take our last break right there, Paul. When we
come back, we're going to talk to you more about
this and then find out about your underwater case that
you're also going to share with us, which we appreciate.
You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast
to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network. We are back on
(30:57):
Beyond Contact. I'm Captain Ron and we're talking to Paul Smith.
That is an incredible thing that this object affected that ship.
It is very interesting to me as you recount the
two different stories from this gentleman, how many times there's
different elements that just seem to be part of the subculture,
part of the folklore that we hear time and time again,
(31:19):
from cigar shaped to saucer shaped to them being told
not to talk about this ever. I mean, that's something
we hear over and over and over so that alone,
I think does add an element of credibility, because these
are things we've all heard before, right, and.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
That brings be mind. One of the other reasons why
I believe Roland Pel's story is because this detail he
presented and they way presented it, and some of the
little facts that pop out of that that if you
were making it up wouldn't occur to you to make up.
That just made it seem way more authentic than I
might otherwise. I mean, I tend to be suspicious and skeptical,
(31:59):
and this seemed authentic because and not just because it
matched other stories that people have told over the years,
but because of the thing some of the details that
came out that didn't match what they told, but seemed
to fit in, you know, in a very integrated way
with what would be an experience with one had in reality.
(32:22):
And that was the case here. And what's interesting further
is that he hadn't told it much. It certainly wasn't
public knowledge. You just searched for it, yet our time
coming up with anything. And yet then later on people
bring out similar details in what seemed to be also
an authentic encounter kind of story. So the evidence kind
(32:43):
of coheres, you know I have. I got my PhD
in philosophy after I after I retired from the army.
And of course one of the things philosophy debates endlessly
is what counts as being true? You know, epistemology, there's
a couple of different theories of how you evaluate something's
being true. One is look coherence surrey, where where a
(33:06):
truth claim was brought in and you can evaluate that
and how it coheres with other truth claims that have
been verified. And this is I think a case of that.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
It sounds like an incredible case and I love that
it's another one coming out, and I just hope there's
going to be more like them, because I'm sure there
are many that people never reported. Certainly, it was a
different world, it was a different time. It was way
before social media, way before media itself was as open
as it is today. Hopefully some of these other guys
will come forward as well. Let's hear about your underwater case, Paul,
(33:41):
you said you had another encounter.
Speaker 5 (33:44):
Yes, so I only had a small bit to play
here this so we worked a number of UFO UAP
kinds of et kinds of cases for me, sometimes better
done than others. One of the projects involved is I
think an Argentinian, but it could have been a Brazilian
(34:05):
minesweeper off the coast in the Atlantic that was found
a drift and abandoned at some point. It was kind
of like the old story Mary Celest the ship there's
found drifting and the table was set and the food
was on the table and nobody was aboard. It happened.
So in this case, the minesweeper was found in the
(34:26):
same condition, and there were rumors that it might involve
some kind of a UFO UAP. I didn't do much
on this because I kept getting this what we call
analytical over, this mental image of a UFO and a
ship and all kinds of stuff, and I couldn't get
rid of that, and so I thought I was off
(34:47):
in la la land somewhere, and so I just kind
of shut down. But three other viewers worked on this,
and they if you put the whole story together, they
all reported for the same thing. A UFO emerges from
the water, the people on the ship kind of like
go crazy and they all jump off the ship. Okay,
it's kind of where the story went, and there's obviously
(35:09):
more details. I don't know them off the top of
my head at the moment. I hadn't planned of talking
about this, but it came up in a conversation, right,
and that was really pretty intriguing. So essentially what the
remote viewers reported matched fairly closely what the stories were
(35:33):
that had been circulating this abandoned ship. And yet the
viewers are working totally blind. They had no connection to
this story. They did not have any idea was a
ship or a UFO event or anything, and yet they
kind of confirmed in a way that.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Account interestingly, Hey, we're going to have some more hearings.
What do you think about these hearings?
Speaker 5 (35:58):
Well, I think that there are step the right direction
how much they're actually going to reveal or resolve So far,
they've been tantalizing but not particularly productive in a way.
These probably will be more of the same, but each
time something a little bit more comes out. And so yeah,
(36:20):
so you know we're chipping away a little at a time. Now.
Of course, you got Jake Barber who's come out. I
don't yet know what to make of the psionics part
of this, but we'll find out because I'm going to
be on that panel at Contact and I'm looking forward
to that, So I'm going to be intrigued to find
out more about that. I'd love to interact with Jake
(36:41):
and his Skywatcher team. I wouldn't even mind going out
on the field with them sometimes to see how it works.
But I haven't been invited yet, so you.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
Know, hopefully that will happen. Do you still think that
there's a governmental remote viewing program happening?
Speaker 5 (36:58):
Well, you know, for obvious reasons. I get asked that
a lot, and I have to give a kind of
a kind of a indistinct answer here. So first off,
I am absolutely convinced that the military military services are
not doing it anymore. I'm absolutely certain of that. I
have high certainty the CIA is not doing it anymore,
and I have reasons for both of those statements.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Well, why would this be if this was so successful
and you guys had such great hit rates and everything,
Well would the.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
Yeah, with the CIA, First of all, you hear the
stories where it worked. You don't hear the stories where
it didn't work right, And so there was there were
a lot of false positives and confusions and stuff, And
of course you get that with any intelligence collection source.
There are certain satellite systems which are really at the
time that I'm familiar with them, were top notch, you know,
(37:50):
taken as the as the state of the art, they
were only producing two percent of information that was useful.
And yet you heard you could hear the success stories
there as well, right, And so the same thing can
apply here with remote viewing. So it wasn't as successful
as the hype and media are presenting it as. But
there were times when it absolutely absolutely worked, and that
(38:14):
alone makes it worth continuing to do. But it also
gave a lot of ammunition for the skeptics and the critics,
which there are a bunch. I mean, the whole history
of the remote viewing program was people trying to kill
it and other people trying to keep it alive. It
was just this ongoing tension. And then when it came
time for the CIA to get it back from DA
(38:35):
in nineteen ninety five, the director of the CIA at
the time was Robert I think Robert Deutsch, I keep
forgetting what his first name is. Robert Deutsch, who was
adamantly opposed to the remote viewing. He was famous for
when he was Under Secretary of Defense kicking Dale Graff,
who was a very prominent guy in the program out
(38:57):
of his office when Dale said he wanted to brief
him on remote vie. He said, I don't know what
he said exactly, but it was essentially like, I don't
believe in that stuff. Get out of my office. Okay.
So he was director of the CIA at the time
that Congress handed the program with the CIA. Since then,
I've had other contact with pretty senior CI officials who
are themselves pretty sure the CIA is not doing program
(39:19):
because they want to do it. Their contact with me
was because they wanted to get a program going and
they were shot down, even though they're very high level folks.
But the exception here and is the NSA. NSA may
have a program going still. They had one at the
time that I was being trained by Ingo. I know
because some of their folks were being trained by Ingo
(39:41):
at the same time, and we had some conversations about this.
Then a whistleblower along about two thousand and six. NSA
whistleblower claimed that the program was still that there was
still a program there, and I had not heard that
they'd never shut it down, although you wouldn't necessarily hear that, right,
but I would not be surprised if NSA s doing it,
and so I would not ask that an indistinct answer here.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
Right, Well, that's all right, yeah, you know these are unknowables,
right yeah, Well, thank you Paul for taking the time.
I really appreciate it. We're looking forward to seeing you
at Contact in the Desert this year. You guys can
find Paul at our viewer dot com. You can find
me on Twitter on Instagram at c t D Underscore
Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out Contactinddesert dot com.
(40:26):
Stay open minded and rational as we explore the unknown
right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am
Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out
all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going
to iHeartRadio dot com.
You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM
Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,
and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with
Captain Wrong.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and
opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions
only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast
to Coast AM, employees of Premier Networks, or their sponsors
and associates. We would like to encourage you to do
(00:41):
your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Hey everyone, Captain Ron and each week on Beyond Contact,
we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of
the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from
the newest cases as we talked with the top experts.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Welcome back to Beyond Contact. I'm Captain Ron, and today
we're going to be speaking with doctor Paul Smith. Paul's
one of these guys where you could fill the whole
hour with just his resume. He's just done so many
amazing things. Most notably, of course, Paul served in the
government Stargate remote viewing Psychic Espionage Program at Fort Meade, Maryland,
and he's one of only five Army personnel to be
(01:38):
personally trained in coordinate remote viewing by Hal put Off
and Ango Swan at the famed Stanford Research Institute. Paul
retired from the Army in nineteen ninety six and founded
the Remote Viewing Instructional Services, Inc. Which offers full time,
full service remote viewing training. He's authored two books and
(01:58):
continues to write tea each consult and lecture on remote viewing.
For today's interview, Paul's going to be talking about another
one of his interests, which happens to be UFOs, and
he has an absolutely incredible story to share with us
on research he's been doing with what maybe, in fact,
one of the very first modern UFO sightings, even pre
(02:18):
dating Kenneth Arnold's famous nineteen forty seven sighting. Hey Paul,
good to see you.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
It was good to see you again.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Yes, sir, and we're going to be back this year.
You're coming to contact in the Desert. We're all very
happy about that.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
And I'm very excited. I've been, let's see, well, last
year and the year before both times, and it was
great experience. I mean, all you guys know how to
really do it upright, And I appreciate.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
That those are our first two years at the Helm,
and this year, believe it or not, seems even bigger
and better. If you can believe that we've got you.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Guys are early on the radar. I have to say,
you're inda on the right. Everybody knows what contact the
desert is. They even know it by your initial ci right, right, right.
That's been out there a lot lately. I've seen that
it's awesome, So.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
We're excited about that. So how did you get involved
in this case about Roland?
Speaker 5 (03:10):
Paul?
Speaker 4 (03:11):
This is an amazing, amazing thing that you stumbled on.
I guess how did it happen?
Speaker 5 (03:15):
I should probably give you a little background first. My
first ever involvement with UFOs was when I was a kid.
It was late fifties, early sixties. We'd get in my
neighbor's basement and we tune this old FAAM radio in
between channels, and of course you get all these weird,
staticky things coming out. We thought we were listening to UFOs,
(03:36):
And of course this is the very beginning of the
UFO adventure really in modern times, and I didn't have
much more to do with it until nineteen eighty three,
when I don't know, some folks don't know who had
Dames is He and I had a long conversation about
UFOs and I heard story, you know, I heard about
Betty and Barney Hill, I heard about Rendelsom Forrest, all
(03:56):
this stuff. First time that I'd really been exposed to it. Then,
for the next seven eight years, in the remote Viewing program,
we did a bunch of remote viewings against UFO and
et kind of targets. That's where I really got kind
of exposed to this. But for decades I kind of
held this at arm's length. I didn't like how it
(04:19):
was interfacing with remote viewing at the time because a
lot of fantasy and speculation got involved in it, and
I didn't think it was doing remote viewing much good.
This of course after it went public. But now that
we have really good foundational evidence for this, I mean,
you don't get really better evidence than, for example, the
tic TAC right military video, their sense Yeah video. I
(04:43):
counted seven different evidential streams on the tic TAC thing,
all confirming the same phenomenon, and that's how we judged
the legitimacy of a phenomenon is when you get multiple
independent evidence streams that all say the same thing, can
count on that being a legitimate, observational legitimate.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
You've talked about remote viewers seeing the same exact thing.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
In this case, I'm talking about the heart evidence. So
the Navy produced in for example, the Nimmen strike group.
You know, observationally, you don't get better evidence than that.
The skeptics who are trying to delegitimize that, they don't
know what the hell they're talking about, frankly, but that
has got me on board, and I've continued to been
involved in it, just buying the scenes really for some time.
(05:30):
I was asked back in twenty eleven to get my
little group of remote viewers to remote view a major
of a UFO event. I didn't know what it was,
because you have to be blind to the target. And
afterwards I found ot it actually was the TICTAC event.
And you know, we had a really strong corporate backing
for that. I can't say who the corporation was because
I signed an NDA that will get me in a
(05:51):
lot of trouble if they get mad. And even recently
we did another project for another defense contractor. Again they
don't want to be named, but produce some very interesting evidence.
So that's the background to this. Now what's interesting is
back in well now, I forgot the date exactly. I
(06:11):
think it's around two thousand and eight or two thousand
and nine. I was living in Austin, Texas. So I'm
an active Mormon, you know. In fact, I went to
church yesterday, right. My Mormon bishop called me up one
day and say, hey, Paul, I need your help. I said, okay,
I mean, that wasn't unusual. He's usually looking for help.
He said, I've been visiting this guy who's really on
(06:32):
his last legs. I don't remember exactly how he said that,
but that's meant. And he just lives up the street
from you, and you guys have some things in common,
and I think you would be a better fit to
interact with him. And so I said okay, and the
Bishop Dan gave me a few more word groups on this,
and then I went up to meet this guy. He
(06:54):
literally lived a block from me, and he'd been there
for like ten years. And I find out that he
has this amazing UFO experience, and I'd sort of gotten
into that beforehand, Dan It told me a little bit
about it, and so I brought along my little digital
recorder and I interviewed him. It was a kind of
(07:14):
a deathbed interview, and he told me his story. He
was there's long gaps in his conversation because he was
struggling for breath. He was on oxygen. But we had
this just amazing conversation, and he told me about an
event that happened in Pasco, actually over Hanford Nuclear Plant
outside of Pascal, Washington, the Tri Cities and southeastern Western State.
(07:38):
He was stationed there and he had kind of a
double mission and he was training this he's supposed to train,
helped train this squadron of fighter pods. They're flying F
six Well it's a little confusing, and then F six
F or an F nine F Hellcat. They're the same,
got the same name, but there one's an upgraded version
of the other. And I think these might be most
(08:01):
are piston driven. They're prejet.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
This is nineteen forty five, and firstly yet I don't
think started till late nineteen forty five, right.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
That's correct, So they were radial engines. You know. He
mentioned in our little interview that some of them were
alcohol injected to give them more more power and more
of a ceiling. So I think these may have been
the F nine fs, the more advanced kind. But there
he was training them, but they were also providing combat
cover for the Hanford plant, which was at that time
(08:30):
one of the most sensitive and most highly secret facilities
in the United States. They contruded building the bomb that
eventually got not long after that got dropped on Japan.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
I think about this is of course that we've heard
time and time again how often UFOs are associated with
specifically military nuclear sites.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
Yes, and that is intriguing because they did well. There's
a long history about this. I'm reading Richard Dolan's book
right now, UFOs for the twenty first Century, and he
gets into that quite a bit. It's quite intriguing anyway.
So they get this alert the General Quarters, and they
jump in their planes and they fly and they're directed
(09:11):
to this radar bogie that's over Hanford at multiple tens
of thousands of feet. At that time, radar was little
in exact so exactly how high it was, and wrote
Roland probably didn't get informed anyway. But he's leading the
six ship Squattern and their orders were to get up
and shoot this thing down. And Roland says, of course
(09:34):
those for their orders, right, but it.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Was actually, if you're over that and think about this
a different time, nineteen forty five, Yeah, of course, UFO
wasn't even remotely in the vernacular or any.
Speaker 5 (09:45):
They had the food fighter thing, right.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Yeah, it wasn't. Yeah, during World War Two they had
some of the food fighters. But this, you know, over
America like this.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
Well over the plant. I mean, it almost does onen't
matter what it was that flew into that airspace because
of the nature of the security surround as plant. If
it had been a civilian airliner, if they couldn't get
it to land, they would have shot it down. You know,
that was their mission. And so they're going out to
do this and the problem is this thing was way
above their ceiling and they were told to use maximum power,
(10:19):
you know, maximum combat power, which is straining the capability
of the aircraft. And they were flying up and yeej
you know esh, And they didn't get close enough to
really do anything. But they did get close enough for
rolling to get a give me a really good description
of what this thing looked like.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Hold on, Paul We're going to take a quick break
right there. We're going to come back and pick it
up on the other side of the break with what
these what this UFO looked like back in nineteen forty five,
pre Kenneth Arnald. Very interesting stuff with Paul Smith. We'll
be right back here listening to Beyond Contact on the
iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network. We
(11:15):
are back on Beyond Contact. We're talking to Paul Smith. Paul,
you're telling us about they're chasing down this UFO over
the nuclear base. Go ahead and pick it up and
tell us what's happening.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
The size of this thing really astonished Roland and his
fill of pilots. He described it in various places. One
place he describes being the size of three aircraft carriers together,
and in this particular interview he described it as being
two aircraft carriers together. Now I think the three is
probably more accurate because he also said it was saucer shaped,
(11:48):
which means that it would be just as long as
it was wide, which is close to me.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
I interject something right here. What's interesting about that, what's
fascinating about that is this is nineteen forty five. The
word flying saucer was actually coined in nineteen forty seven,
yet when kennth Doarnold had his sighting. So for the
fact that this guy called it saucer shaped, do you
not find that astonishing?
Speaker 5 (12:11):
Well, not as much, And the reason for that is,
of course I'm a very simple minded guy, so I
get easily amused ball. So well, that hasn't been my
impression of you at all. So yeah, I mean, this
was like the early two thousands, and of course the
term flying saucer had been around for fifty six years
by then, so Ronald Roland using the term saucer isn't
(12:35):
particularly exceptional because this was, of course fifty six years
after Ken Arnold came up with that term, and as
a consequence, Roland had some familiarity with the UFO literature
since then, so I think he probably used that term
because he was familiar with it over that intervening period,
and the thing was basically saucer shaped. Was not a surprise, because,
(12:57):
of course, a lot of the Obbs innovations we've had
and I've been reported are described in terms of saucer shaped.
And you know, Ken can Arnold coined that term of course,
and so you know, rolling siding about this, and one
of my concerns actually at the time was that maybe
his his engagement with the UFO literature since his experience,
(13:22):
might have colored his his account a little bit. But
for reasons i'll talk about later, I think that he
probably was reporting it pretty accurately in terms of as
it happened. At the time. He's talking about this, saying
it's the size of two or three aircraft carriers hovering
in the air over Hanford. The added interest here was
that it was partially obscured by clouds, which seemed to
(13:43):
be artificially generated, like some kind of fogging mechanism or machine.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
And of course, Paul, that's another one of these things
we've heard in various UFO accounts that they seem to
kind of mask behind clouds that.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
In this case, apparently their tech wasn't working great, because
he says it was as if some of the emitters
just weren't working. So he could see a fair amount
of this thing. Part of it was obscured by clouds,
but part of it was very visible, and as he's
trying to attack it, he's getting a really good look
at this. Now I have done a little bit of
(14:20):
research to try and find out if there's a record
of this, and some other folks have tried it as well,
and we don't seem to be able to locate the
d Day Book or whatever they call it. This particular squadron.
You would think that there might be gun camera footage
as well if they fired at it. Those cameras were
designed to only work quality guns were firing. That's also
(14:42):
could easily have been lost or it wouldn't be recorded
over because then they're using real film. Right, So, at
any rate, we have his testimony about it, and he
described this big saucer shaped thing with these little ports
around it, and I forget the exact term you use
right now. The great thing about my talk is I'm
going to actually play his interview for the folks who
(15:05):
are attend. Yeah, I've had to do some editing with it,
because of course there are these long gaps. He talked
very quietly, but the wonders of modern technology allow me
to enhance the volume so it can be heard and understood,
and I'm going to edit out the long gaps that
he had.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
In Actually wonderful and it's always great hearing a first
hand account directly from the first hand witness. I always
love that.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Yeah, and he's pretty colorful and I don't mean cussing,
although that happened right now. And again he was in
the navy, right, But he's actually quite descriptive when he
talks about this, and so anyway, this thing's huge. He
talks about detail on the surface of it all that
was mostly smooth. He said that there's this kind of
(15:48):
a ridge running nears aning tails, kind of vertically from
nose to tail of this thing. I don't know if
it's a saucer shape. How do you tell where the
nose in the tail is? But maybe the ridge it
self help He said it was kind of he said
it's cone shaped. I think he might have meant a
triangular and cross section that ran around this thing. And
of course we do get some some descriptions on the
(16:09):
uap Ufou literature that mentioned a kind of a keel
that goes around the thing, you know, a keel in
terms of like a sailboat keel, except right, not sticking down,
and so that that matches what others have described. Since
so you know, he's in quite amount of detail which
I can't possibly get into here. Because I you know,
(16:30):
my memory doesn't work that well, and I don't want
to read you the transcript right now, obviously, But they
kept going up and trying to get there, and then
they course stall out when they got above their their
manageable ceiling, and they'd run out of air and they
fall down, and they go up and try and get
there and fall back down again, and it's in a
way kind of an exciting story. Finally, the thing, he said,
(16:51):
just after they tried it enough and apparently it got
satisfied whatever it was there for, he said, it just
ascended vertically at or tremendou rate of speed and disappeared.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Once again, another very frequently heard of count from UFOs.
They either take off vertically or horizontally instantly.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Yep. And of course, again this is nineteen forty five,
this is this is before so many reports have come in,
and he seemed, I mean, we're talking about a guy
who is really breathing oxygen, probably his last few breaths.
You know, he lived for about another two weeks I
guess from there. But yeah, he was clearly in some distress.
(17:34):
But he really really wanted to get this story out now.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Before even like we mentioned earlier. This is before we
had jet aircraft.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
Oh yeah, yeah, you know, there's some familiarity with it. Well,
not so much. I mean, the Germans had fielded there.
What is it two, I think is what the designation
was jet, which is of course took us somewhat by surprise,
and we were trying to capture recapture that. But I
think a lot of that was still fairly classified. Now.
(18:02):
Speaking of classified, of course you always debrief after a mission.
That that's the standard military practice. And so he and
his fellow pilots were brought in and debriefed on this,
and then they were told they could not speak about
it again for the rest of their lives. That said,
it was highly classified military information. Of course the military
(18:23):
will do that is something they don't know what it is.
They'll say, right, well, we're better off classifying it now
and admitting our error later than we are not classifying
it and have it really come back and bite us
in the butt.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
Did he speculate what he thought it was? Did he
think of it as an extraterrestrial craft or did he
think of it as another maybe a German or military He.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
Actually did not, And that's one of the more interesting
and convincing things here is that he did not state
explicitly he thought it was from outer space, or that
it was you know, extraterrest or anything like that. He didn't.
He didn't. It was kind of just the facts, Just
the facts, man, you know. It was kind of that
way he presented it, which is, of course, when you
(19:04):
get into the remote viewing world, that's what we want
to hear from a remote viewer. We want them to
describe their experience. We don't want them to speculate on
their experience, and he was pretty much doing that. Of course,
in the military you're trained to do that because again,
they want they don't want you to try and tell
them what it was. They want you to just tell
(19:26):
them exactly what happened. And that's what he was doing.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Do we ever have any testimony from the other five
pilot or four pilots that weren't.
Speaker 5 (19:34):
So that was the second thing that made me think
that he was giving me to it, giving it to
me straight. In the process of researching for this talk,
I came across something that I hadn't found in the past.
And of course, you know, the Internet gets more and
more robust every year. You know more people add stuff
to it that's been there but hasn't been available publicly,
and I think I have to go back and review this,
(19:57):
but I think it was a move on investigator who
got really interested in Roland Powell's case, and so we
went around and found at least one of Paul's squadron
mates who confirmed the story and reported it in pretty
much the same terms that Roland did.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
So well, now that's fascinating, Paul, that we are collaborating witness.
That is fantastic.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Paul.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
Let's take a quick break here, pick up the rest
of this on the other side of the break, talk
more with Paul about the other collaborating witness and about
the deathbed confession itself. You're listening to Beyond Contact right
here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal
podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Paul.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Let's pick it up right there. So you said, there's
another investigator that did, in fact find one of his
fellow pilots that saw the exact same thing.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
Yes, and pretty much confirmed everything that Roland had said.
I say everything because there's some detail that the second
guy didn't report that Roland did, and vice versa. Right,
that standard for legitimate eyewitness reporting is that no witness
sees it exactly the same way and doesn't necessarily highlight
(21:30):
the same details as somebody else does. But when they
come together the Venn diagram, when you don't put them together,
they pretty much support each other, and you know that's
that's likely to be legitimate testimony. And that was the
case with this. But my impression was that this guy
essentially was saying exactly the same thing. And as far
(21:51):
as I can tell, they never really had any contact
with each other since the event happened, so they couldn't
compare stories. And even in an only have the stories
come together, it's like these were again independent evidence streams
in a sense.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Well, these two gentlemen have went what fifty sixty seventy
years without ever telling their story. And this is a
case I've never heard about. I couldn't find it anywhere online.
It seems to me like instantly I heard this, I thought,
I wonder if there's more cases out there, people who
have had these sort of encounters and it just never
(22:30):
gets reported and it never gets you know, disability, Paul,
We've had these numerous deathbed confessions over the years of
people from you know, from Roswell, we had Philip Corso,
we had Lieutenant Walter Hunt. There's different people. Paul Hellier,
at the end of his life said a lot of things.
He came forward with, what do you think about deathbed confessions.
(22:53):
Do you think that they're stronger evidence because the person
feels they need to purge this to the world, or
do you think they're weaker because maybe at the end
of life people are a little delusional or something.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
Yeah, so that's a challenging question. Oftentimes deathbed confessions in
the legal world are taken to be more truthful than
what somebody has said during their lifetime, and of course
there's reading for that, because oftentimes people have motivations to
either be quiet about something or to tell it differently.
And when they know they're about to go and there
(23:29):
won't be any repercussions, there's a way nobody can get
even with them or whatever, then they'll come clean and
they'll they'll tell the real story. Now, of course, of course,
there is a possibility there's some simility involved or whatever,
or medical condition that alters their perceptions or memories and things,
(23:50):
and that's always a possibility, but oftentimes you can kind
of evaluate that in the course of the conversation because
people who do have some dementia or whatever, there are
obvious tells there that tell you that. And in this
case with Roland, he seemed totally totally clear that his daughter,
(24:12):
one of his daughters, was there with him, and she
was you know, she treated him like he was a
totally competent human being. You know, sometimes when when you're
dealing with someone with dementia, you kind.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Of yeah, almost.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
Now, one thing I want to add though, this wasn't
the first time he told the story. He there's been
a book that written about his life and it was
privately published. It was like by a writer and I'm
blanking on the name of the book right now, in
which it covered his whole life and then one small
part of it was about his UFO experiences. So he
(24:50):
had told it before, but it wasn't something that he
had rehearsed numerous times. I think his kids may have
heard him tell the story as well some point.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
But the other pilot is he still alive?
Speaker 5 (25:03):
Yeah, I don't know. I haven't checked in that. He was,
of course in his mid to late eighties. When this
interview took place. Yeah, so Roland died and I don't
know whatever it was two thousand and eight, whenever it was,
and I'll remember that date precisely when when I give
my talk. But but yeah, and I don't know. It'd
(25:26):
be interesting if he's still around, I'd love to give
him a call, or if he's closed, maybe visiting even
and get a second, a second take on his story
as well.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Any corroboration you can get always makes it much stronger.
Do you have other evidence that supports the fact that
this may have happened?
Speaker 5 (25:50):
So the first thing was the way he presented it
seemed to me is very straightforward and nonspeculative, Okay. The
second was this confirmation from this guy. The third sort
of was the fact that he did tell a writer
and it is in a book, and the account in
the book is pretty much I mean, there's always different
changes in different accounts of things, but the account in
(26:13):
the book pretty much confirmed it was very much, in fact,
not just pretty much, very much along the lines of
what he told to me that day. His daughter kind
of confirmed at least that, of course she went there,
but she had heard the story and she confirmed that
he'd been pretty consistent in telling this over the years,
(26:33):
and so on, and so as far as further external
objective evidence, I don't have more of that. I think
it's pretty remarkable that we have the one case of
his squadron mate, many years after the fact, also telling
the same story.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
That's a strength right there. It just doubles the credibility
of it. I always love to see that. Wasn't there
another experience he had? He had second UFO siding, didn't he?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
He did?
Speaker 5 (27:02):
He did, And it's in a way, maybe even more
remarkable than this one because of the physical effects it had.
So he had after he retired from the from the Navy,
he was still active in consulting from military kinds of stuff,
Navy kind of stuff, and he was hired, it sounds
(27:25):
like from his account, he was hired by our Chief
of Naval Operations his office to go support the Brazilian
Navy in teaching their pilots how to how to operate
off of aircraft carriers. And the Brazilian Navy had a carrier,
have a photo of it.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Wait, they have a photo of the object or the
chat the.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
Photo of the carrier. So so yeah, so you can
see what the ship was. And he was there advising
the Brazilian navy, and he talks about one time, they're
about two hundred miles off the coast, and of course
there's a little sidebar here. Brazil has a lot UFO
UAP reports a lot of them, and even some of
(28:04):
these USO under you unidentified submerged objects by coming in
and going out of the water, which there's another story
about that. Maybe if we get a chance, we'll get to. Anyway,
he's on the deck of this carrier's going along and
he notices this odd cloud off some distance away, and
it was, he said, it was quite long and with
cigar shaped, and it was kind of rolling, a rolling cloud,
(28:26):
and it was moving at a significant rate of speed,
faster than of course could be accounted for by some
cloud being blown along by the wind. And infact, was
very discreet. In other words, you know, a lot of
clouds are kind of fuzzy, and you know, and they
tend to change their shape as he goes this one,
he said, maintained its shape, continued on specific track that
(28:47):
brought it near the carrier, and I asked him how
high it was. He said, well, I wasn't thinking about
it at the time, but if I had to, had
to kind of give you an educated guest right now,
he says, about ten thousand feet up and it comes
and as it's the aircraft carrier, the entire ship heals
over towards it about twenty twenty five degrees. Roland says,
(29:08):
it heals over towards it. And as the object is going,
it's doing this, and he said, as it got further
way than the ship righted itself back up again. This
sounds like it's a cigar shaped UFO of quite large
size that is shrouded in these fake clouds but exerting
some kind of I'm gonna say magnetic because that's the
(29:30):
only thing we can think of, But it could have
been something else, some kind of magnetic pull on the
ship and causing it to lean towards the aircraft. And
we're talking a very large ship, you know, something that
may be almost as large as the object itself, maybe larger,
I don't know, but that in itself is quite remarkable.
(29:52):
Suggesting things about these these objects, assuming they're objects in
this case, that isn't usually discussed. Now we do know
about effects that UFOs have on things, shutting down systems,
activating inter intercontinibilistic missiles, causing cars to shut down, all
(30:13):
that kind of thing. But this is probably one of
the largest effects that I've heard.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
That is an exactly the amount of energy and whatever
that must take to do that. That's incredible. We're going
to take our last break right there, Paul. When we
come back, we're going to talk to you more about
this and then find out about your underwater case that
you're also going to share with us, which we appreciate.
You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast
to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network. We are back on
(30:57):
Beyond Contact. I'm Captain Ron and we're talking to Paul Smith.
That is an incredible thing that this object affected that ship.
It is very interesting to me as you recount the
two different stories from this gentleman, how many times there's
different elements that just seem to be part of the subculture,
part of the folklore that we hear time and time again,
(31:19):
from cigar shaped to saucer shaped to them being told
not to talk about this ever. I mean, that's something
we hear over and over and over so that alone,
I think does add an element of credibility, because these
are things we've all heard before, right, and.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
That brings be mind. One of the other reasons why
I believe Roland Pel's story is because this detail he
presented and they way presented it, and some of the
little facts that pop out of that that if you
were making it up wouldn't occur to you to make up.
That just made it seem way more authentic than I
might otherwise. I mean, I tend to be suspicious and skeptical,
(31:59):
and this seemed authentic because and not just because it
matched other stories that people have told over the years,
but because of the thing some of the details that
came out that didn't match what they told, but seemed
to fit in, you know, in a very integrated way
with what would be an experience with one had in reality.
(32:22):
And that was the case here. And what's interesting further
is that he hadn't told it much. It certainly wasn't
public knowledge. You just searched for it, yet our time
coming up with anything. And yet then later on people
bring out similar details in what seemed to be also
an authentic encounter kind of story. So the evidence kind
(32:43):
of coheres, you know I have. I got my PhD
in philosophy after I after I retired from the army.
And of course one of the things philosophy debates endlessly
is what counts as being true? You know, epistemology, there's
a couple of different theories of how you evaluate something's
being true. One is look coherence surrey, where where a
(33:06):
truth claim was brought in and you can evaluate that
and how it coheres with other truth claims that have
been verified. And this is I think a case of that.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
It sounds like an incredible case and I love that
it's another one coming out, and I just hope there's
going to be more like them, because I'm sure there
are many that people never reported. Certainly, it was a
different world, it was a different time. It was way
before social media, way before media itself was as open
as it is today. Hopefully some of these other guys
will come forward as well. Let's hear about your underwater case, Paul,
(33:41):
you said you had another encounter.
Speaker 5 (33:44):
Yes, so I only had a small bit to play
here this so we worked a number of UFO UAP
kinds of et kinds of cases for me, sometimes better
done than others. One of the projects involved is I
think an Argentinian, but it could have been a Brazilian
(34:05):
minesweeper off the coast in the Atlantic that was found
a drift and abandoned at some point. It was kind
of like the old story Mary Celest the ship there's
found drifting and the table was set and the food
was on the table and nobody was aboard. It happened.
So in this case, the minesweeper was found in the
(34:26):
same condition, and there were rumors that it might involve
some kind of a UFO UAP. I didn't do much
on this because I kept getting this what we call
analytical over, this mental image of a UFO and a
ship and all kinds of stuff, and I couldn't get
rid of that, and so I thought I was off
(34:47):
in la la land somewhere, and so I just kind
of shut down. But three other viewers worked on this,
and they if you put the whole story together, they
all reported for the same thing. A UFO emerges from
the water, the people on the ship kind of like
go crazy and they all jump off the ship. Okay,
it's kind of where the story went, and there's obviously
(35:09):
more details. I don't know them off the top of
my head at the moment. I hadn't planned of talking
about this, but it came up in a conversation, right,
and that was really pretty intriguing. So essentially what the
remote viewers reported matched fairly closely what the stories were
(35:33):
that had been circulating this abandoned ship. And yet the
viewers are working totally blind. They had no connection to
this story. They did not have any idea was a
ship or a UFO event or anything, and yet they
kind of confirmed in a way that.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Account interestingly, Hey, we're going to have some more hearings.
What do you think about these hearings?
Speaker 5 (35:58):
Well, I think that there are step the right direction
how much they're actually going to reveal or resolve So far,
they've been tantalizing but not particularly productive in a way.
These probably will be more of the same, but each
time something a little bit more comes out. And so yeah,
(36:20):
so you know we're chipping away a little at a time. Now.
Of course, you got Jake Barber who's come out. I
don't yet know what to make of the psionics part
of this, but we'll find out because I'm going to
be on that panel at Contact and I'm looking forward
to that, So I'm going to be intrigued to find
out more about that. I'd love to interact with Jake
(36:41):
and his Skywatcher team. I wouldn't even mind going out
on the field with them sometimes to see how it works.
But I haven't been invited yet, so you.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
Know, hopefully that will happen. Do you still think that
there's a governmental remote viewing program happening?
Speaker 5 (36:58):
Well, you know, for obvious reasons. I get asked that
a lot, and I have to give a kind of
a kind of a indistinct answer here. So first off,
I am absolutely convinced that the military military services are
not doing it anymore. I'm absolutely certain of that. I
have high certainty the CIA is not doing it anymore,
and I have reasons for both of those statements.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Well, why would this be if this was so successful
and you guys had such great hit rates and everything,
Well would the.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
Yeah, with the CIA, First of all, you hear the
stories where it worked. You don't hear the stories where
it didn't work right, And so there was there were
a lot of false positives and confusions and stuff, And
of course you get that with any intelligence collection source.
There are certain satellite systems which are really at the
time that I'm familiar with them, were top notch, you know,
(37:50):
taken as the as the state of the art, they
were only producing two percent of information that was useful.
And yet you heard you could hear the success stories
there as well, right, And so the same thing can
apply here with remote viewing. So it wasn't as successful
as the hype and media are presenting it as. But
there were times when it absolutely absolutely worked, and that
(38:14):
alone makes it worth continuing to do. But it also
gave a lot of ammunition for the skeptics and the critics,
which there are a bunch. I mean, the whole history
of the remote viewing program was people trying to kill
it and other people trying to keep it alive. It
was just this ongoing tension. And then when it came
time for the CIA to get it back from DA
(38:35):
in nineteen ninety five, the director of the CIA at
the time was Robert I think Robert Deutsch, I keep
forgetting what his first name is. Robert Deutsch, who was
adamantly opposed to the remote viewing. He was famous for
when he was Under Secretary of Defense kicking Dale Graff,
who was a very prominent guy in the program out
(38:57):
of his office when Dale said he wanted to brief
him on remote vie. He said, I don't know what
he said exactly, but it was essentially like, I don't
believe in that stuff. Get out of my office. Okay.
So he was director of the CIA at the time
that Congress handed the program with the CIA. Since then,
I've had other contact with pretty senior CI officials who
are themselves pretty sure the CIA is not doing program
(39:19):
because they want to do it. Their contact with me
was because they wanted to get a program going and
they were shot down, even though they're very high level folks.
But the exception here and is the NSA. NSA may
have a program going still. They had one at the
time that I was being trained by Ingo. I know
because some of their folks were being trained by Ingo
(39:41):
at the same time, and we had some conversations about this.
Then a whistleblower along about two thousand and six. NSA
whistleblower claimed that the program was still that there was
still a program there, and I had not heard that
they'd never shut it down, although you wouldn't necessarily hear that, right,
but I would not be surprised if NSA s doing it,
and so I would not ask that an indistinct answer here.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
Right, Well, that's all right, yeah, you know these are unknowables,
right yeah, Well, thank you Paul for taking the time.
I really appreciate it. We're looking forward to seeing you
at Contact in the Desert this year. You guys can
find Paul at our viewer dot com. You can find
me on Twitter on Instagram at c t D Underscore
Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out Contactinddesert dot com.
(40:26):
Stay open minded and rational as we explore the unknown
right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am
Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out
all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going
to iHeartRadio dot com.
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