July 25, 2025 • 41 mins
Check in with Captain Ron this week as he speaks with Dr. Stephen Finley, a professor in African American and Religious Studies at Louisiana State University, to gain a deeper understanding of UFOs through the lens of religion.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
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Speaker 2 (00:21):
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(00:41):
your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week are Beyond
Contact for the latest news in ufology, discuss some of
the classic cases and bring you the latest information from
the newest.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Cases as we talk with the top experts. Welcome to
Beyond Contact. I am Captain Ron, and today we are
speaking with doctor Stephen Finley. Doctor Finley is a professor
of Religious Studies and African American Studies at Louisiana State University.
Doctor Finley is also an author, and he defines religion
as a mechanism for people to comprehend their place and
(01:30):
purpose in the world. He has also become quite embroiled
in the entire UFO arena, and he looks at this
from a spiritual, cultural, and historical dimensions regarding UFOs. So
we're really happy to have him here today. Hey, Doc,
how you doing, Bud?
Speaker 5 (01:44):
That was pretty good. I'm doing pretty well.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
You know.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
It's ideal to have you on right now because I
feel like I have seen a bit of an uptick
of sorts tying the UFO phenomenon to religion, with prominent
people and researchers to talking about this and even contact
these such as Chris Bledsoe and a few others who
seem to feel like this is more of a religious experience.
Chris specifically claims that some of the orbs that he's
(02:12):
witnessed are in fact angels or angelic energy beings. I
think he calls them. Have you heard of this and
what are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 5 (02:20):
I have heard of that?
Speaker 6 (02:21):
Chris Bledsoe was saying in fact, I had an opportunity
to attend the gathering that he hosted one of those nights,
Monday night, yep. Contact in the Desert. Yeah, and that
was a really interesting meeting, I will say that for me,
religion is a primary lens in which to understand the
UFO phenomena.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
One because we're not exactly sure what it is.
Speaker 6 (02:43):
Sometimes it acts like you know, UFOs act like physical phenomena.
Sometimes they act like something much more paranormal. Whatever the
case is, UFOs make us think about our world and
what it means. So when I talk about religion, that's
primarily what I'm talking about. I'm talking about me how
people find meaning, just like you said in your intro,
how people understand their place in the world. And there's
(03:05):
no way that UFOs can't push those kinds of questions.
In fact, they do even if you're a scientist, they
still push our place in the world.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
You know, what does it mean to be human? What
does our place in the in the universe then mean?
If they're let's just say they are physical objects, they
are evidence of intellect from other worlds, Like you know,
some research projects like Galileo project that are that still
pushes us to think about what's our place in the world.
And for me, that's a primary religious question.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
No doubt about it. I feel the exact same way,
and I think it's been going on since we developed language, Yes,
as soon as we could think about It's the first
thing I would ask as a developing human being. You know,
it's like, what's over there? What's up in the sky?
What has anyone else been here? You know what I mean?
That's that's primal. I would say, that's right.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
And language. I'm glad you started off there.
Speaker 6 (03:55):
The language is really important because the phenomena, as people
have experience, is so complicate.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
It we actually have difficulty assigning language.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
To it absolutely because we're talking about what these terms
are that's right, call it this or that. It always
frustrates me because how do we know that's right? In farness?
We we don't know what to call it correct? Uh.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
We also hear over and over that some of these
people involved in the governments, as they call it legacy programs,
also feel that this may be tied to religion, and
that might be one of the key reasons they do
not want to let this UFO information out because they
believe it might be demonic. Have you heard this line
of thinking and what are your thoughts on it?
Speaker 5 (04:36):
I have heard that line of thinking.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
I think Ted Peters writes about, you know, religion in
that sense, especially from the Christian perspective. That's that's interesting
that folks in the government would take that perspective, because
of course, when I talk about religion, where folks like
Jeffrey Krapt will talk about religion and others who are trained,
instead of religion, we're talking about something much broader than
these institutional forms of religiosity, so that they can't be
(05:01):
captured by these structures, say Islam or Judaism, or Christianity
or Buddhism and so on. They push much more intrinsic
and basic questions about the nature of human beings, the
nature of the world and the universe, and like I said,
our place in it. So I appreciate the fact that
(05:21):
they're talking about religion, I would just like to push
a little bit about how they're talking about religion. And
if I might add one other thing. You know, this
whole idea of UFOs potentially being demonic, it's a highly
Christian idea, but it also seems to cohere with this
this government notion that they represent some kind of threat
(05:43):
to the planet and to the United States and so on,
And for me, that's sort of a problematic way of
understanding UFOs, which means that our response is military, right
when we really don't know what's going on here.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Well, a lot of people say that they purpose push
that narrative so we will funnel more money into you know,
the industrial military complex, and that kind my design, they
want us to feel that way. Doctor Greer and other
people feel that the aliens have not displayed violence or
harm in any way that as far as we know yet,
we seem to kind of push that narrative that perhaps
(06:20):
our military wants us to feel that way.
Speaker 5 (06:23):
Sure, and let me respond to something else that you
just said.
Speaker 6 (06:26):
I'm not totally convinced in the alien thesis, you know,
I think that is a possibility.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
I guess what we have to.
Speaker 6 (06:33):
Agree here is that the UFO phenomena may not be
one singular thing.
Speaker 5 (06:37):
It may be a class of very diverse.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
One thousand percent right.
Speaker 6 (06:42):
Yeah, Because I'm also open to the to the thesis
such as Michael Masters Jacques Lay who have argued that
these are humans from the future, right who have mastered space,
time and so on.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
It I find that really compelling thesis.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Frankly, there's ideas of you know, is it ultra compastorals?
I got a ton of ten pastorals that live on
this planet alongside of us. There's interdimensional there's all of
these things, and then you have the history of gin
and ghosts and different beings. Are these all the same thing?
I doubt it. There's probably more than one phenomenon going on, right, Yes.
Speaker 6 (07:17):
That's right, And that's why I love the study of
UFOs actually because I enter this discussion, as you said
in your intro, from Black studies and religion, which means
that my perspective is going to be very different, and
in terms of UFO UFP studies, probably a very unique
perspective for sure.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Specifically, I want to ask you about what about the Bible.
For example, there's that guy Bury Downing wrote a book
back in the sixties, and there's others that have written
books about the link between the Bible itself and specifically UFOs.
Have you seen a correlation of references to ets and
UFOs in the Bible.
Speaker 6 (07:53):
Let me first say that I have that book that
one of my fraternity brothers actually sent me a copy
of it that I that I haven't read yet because
he knew that was right up my island for sure.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
And not that long ago.
Speaker 6 (08:05):
He sent me a copy that that book is probably
a classic, given given when it was written, and at
some point I had to get to it. I will
say that with respect to the Bible, there are a
lot of ways of looking at it. I think the
most frequent connection that people make is with this idea
of a charriot you're fully aware of, like with Elijah
and will within will. That's that's exactly right. And Ezekiel's
(08:28):
will within a will is particularly relevant for for some
of the groups that I study.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
And so I do see all of those connections.
Speaker 6 (08:35):
The groups that I study make explicit connections to some
of these texts, especially Ezekiel in that in that first chapter. Again,
as a person who's approaching religion in UFOs, as a scholar,
I don't have a perspective in terms of what I
find most compelling in terms of, you know, something I
might believe. I'm interested in all of it and how
(08:55):
folks use the Bible and other sources to make sense
of the phenomena, including some of these texts we're discussing.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
For sure, Well, that's what I want to ask you.
Are there other texts that we see these sorts of
UFOs in, for example, Besides the Bible, I think.
Speaker 6 (09:09):
People make reference often to Moses and the whole saga
the children of Israel, you know, led by what was
that a flame or something like that. That's a reference
in Hebrew Bible, Old Testament that I hear often. They're
clearly a good handful of texts that are really important
for folks in UFO and religion, you know, especially in
the smaller religions, like the groups that I study, like
(09:32):
the like the Nation of Islam, which I know we're
going to get to, or these two black women called
the UFO Twins, the United New Wabbian Nation of Moors,
even Sunrah, you know, the great jazz artists and poet.
I consider all of those religious perspectives of UFOs and
transport and cosmic realities and even aliens. All of those
(09:54):
for me are religious perspectives because you have you have
people really engaging these ideas is and trying to make
sense of them over against them. They're thinking about who
they are, where they come from, what is the meaning
of life?
Speaker 5 (10:08):
And again all of those are religious questions.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
There again, they're primal too. When we come back, we're
going to talk more with doctor Finley and ask him
about some of the paintings and other depictions of UFOs
in religious art throughout the years. You're listening to Beyond
Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal
podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking
(10:49):
with doctor Stephen Finley. Doc, what do you think about
some of these religious paintings from the Renaissance period. I'm
sure you've seen these. There are many of them, you know.
I try to keep a very open in mind to
these subjects and be very objective and rational as I can.
And I got to tell you, I've seen some of
these paintings, and from my eyes, that does look like
(11:10):
a guy in a UFO craft. I don't know what
else it could be. Like. It's this round craft, he's
sitting in it, he's holding controls, he's up in the stars.
I don't know how else to interpret that other than
not necessarily UFO, but certainly a spacecraft or something. Right.
Speaker 6 (11:26):
I've seen those, some of those pictures, and I find
them compelling to and other pictures like pictures of the
Virgin and child.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
Sure with it in the background they're looking yes, yeh.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
That's exactly right, you know.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
I had an interesting conversation when I was at another
conference in San Francisco just last year. I was talking
about the work that I do with one of the
attendees who was from Japan. He was accompanying an actual
member of their parliament who was in charge of the
study of UAP and we were talking about the connection
even between Japan and Japanese. And then they said and
(12:00):
he was talking about and showed me a picture of
an old Japanese painting. I don't know if you've ever
seen those with what he sees as a UFO in
the background.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
And I thought that was.
Speaker 6 (12:12):
Really interesting, especially for the work that I do, because
even the Nation of Islam claims that the origin of
what they call the Motherwheel was in Japan in nineteen
twenty nine. They say it was built in the Japanese
Islands in nineteen twenty nine.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
And that was super interesting.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Oh very much. So, you know, there's so many different
interpretations of the UFO phenomenon throughout history. In Communion, the
book by Whitley Strieber, he points out some old accounts
that seem like they could have been an alien experience
from people. In fact, he tells one story of fairies
that came down from the trees. Do you think that
this is sort of simply people putting their own lens
(12:52):
on a unique experience, like they didn't know what to
call it. Like one person's ghosts is another person's dead
relative is another religious figure is another et for another person.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
Sure. I like Whitley. I know Whitley.
Speaker 6 (13:04):
I've been in a lot of meetings with him, private
and public. I find much of what he has to
say compelling. I know some of the counts that he's
talking about. I think there's a very real chance in
some of these fairy type of counts, they didn't have
a language to describe what they were talking about, and
they could very well be UFO encounters. At the same time,
You're absolutely right, we could be projecting, we could be
(13:26):
trying to fit various phenomena into this UFO phenomena when
they might fit or might not fit. But I think
it's quite possible that some of these early accounts were
actually UFO appearances.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
How do you think that the cultural influences affect somebody's
interpretation of some of these paranormal or extraterrestrial experiences.
Speaker 6 (13:47):
Well, I think, for example, the groups that I study
are primarily African American, and when they encounter UFOs, they're
always making connections to Black experience, always making connections to
to sharecropping and slavery and racial violence including lynching and
so on. And so I think culture is and experience
are two very important lenses, and everybody has a lens.
(14:10):
Most of us have multiple lenses that intersect and overlap.
And I think for many African Americans who couldn't find
adequate meaning here outside of again the sort of historical
realities that I just mentioned and these narratives of black inferiority,
took these experiences and saw themselves as having a greater
existence that wasn't simply contained within this earthly reality where
(14:35):
they were slaves or where they were oppressed, and saw
out in the cosmos possibilities for who they might be,
and so used those experiences to question white supremacists and
anti black notions of who black people are. And so
that's just a very good example of how people take
experience and culture and use it then to think specifically
(14:58):
in their particular situation about who they are.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
You know, you've pointed out the analogy. You know, that's
pretty clear of how some people would equate an alien abduction.
How it's an analogous to when African Americans were picked
up by different looking people, white people, yes, put on
a ship, taken for a long journey to a strange
foreign land, you know, during the slave trade. Clearly there
(15:22):
are parallels to the horrific slavery experiences they went through,
as well as accounts of alien abduction experiences. This has
influenced some people's some different groups of people's UFO experiences differently.
You know, how would you speak to that?
Speaker 6 (15:36):
Well, first of all, I think that's a really important
analogy that I can't take credit for. The afrofuturists actually
came up with that analogy, and they want to see, Well.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
I think anybody on its face, it's so obvious I
think right here and come up with that, you know
what I.
Speaker 6 (15:51):
Mean, I totally agree with you because to me, I mean,
how else would you see that as an alien other
than an alien reduction? I'm sure see, you know, they're
in Africa, the ships show up, they've never seen white people,
and automatically they're mythologizing about them. Of course, these are
dead relatives who have returned, right, which I think is
a really important insight because now you have all these
(16:13):
people talking about the relationship between UFOs and death and
souls and which has an analogy and the very beginnings
of the modern black experience in the West, I either
with the slave trade, right, And so for me, viewing
UFOs through Black studies like I do and religion opens
up all kinds of possibilities that are analogous to the
(16:36):
ways that people are talking about what UFOs might be.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Absolutely, you know, interestingly, there are also some very powerful
alien contact accounts from African tribes like the Dogon tribe
of Mali for example. These are classic UFO tales that
are really intriguing to me. You know, ancient people have
said some of these fascinating things. How could they know
with the Dogan new you know, the star map example,
(17:02):
What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 6 (17:03):
I totally agree. You know, I have a friend named
doctor Marcus Reed, Marcus Read, who actually talks about the
do gods in the context of UFOs. But it's also
interesting that when Bootsie Collins if you remember that name
in George wars Ye from Parliament, that's right, that's right.
So when they had their UFO encounter, that's one of
the first connections that they made. George Clinton talks about
(17:24):
the dogons, No way, he connected immediately to the dogons
and their stargates, just like you suggested.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (17:34):
And that's and that's the point to me about UFOs
in Black experience. They're always signaling how it's connected to
aspects of Black culture, ancient and modern and black experience.
And that's just one example of it.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
That's really interesting, you know. I think it's also interesting
that you have said that some of these UFO accounts
you've heard from black individuals claim that they've seen black pilots.
I find this absolutely fascinating. I wonder what you think
it could mean to me at points like it could
possibly be projecting or manifesting their vision somehow, or perhaps
(18:08):
even you could go as far as to say that
the aliens are putting on this facade or this look
because maybe the contact ee is expecting that, or they're
trying to make it comfortable for them, or so, what
are your thoughts about it?
Speaker 6 (18:21):
First of all, I think that's an excellent question, and
again I have to bracket my response in the context
of being a researcher in scholar because what I want
to suggest is that when people like the Nation of
Islam say they've seen the pilots, pilots represent all the
races within blackness, which isn't just like African, they're African Americans.
For them, Asians, Native Americans, LATINX are all part of
(18:44):
what they what they mean when they say black, And
for the Nation of Islam.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
It basically could say non white basically in a sense innocence,
but especially LATINX or Latino and Latina, Asian, Native American.
Speaker 6 (18:57):
And African African American, and they say that the pilots
represent all of those particular groups. Now, when it comes
to what's his name, the UFO summoner who used to
live in Las Vegashweh Prophet Yahweh Yahweh, is much more
literal when he says these pilots which he which he
claimed to have witnessed, are black. He means black like me, right,
(19:19):
not something more complicated like the Nation of Islav. I
don't know what to make of that, except that for
them it's literal. They mean they're literally black. Whether you
mean Prophet Yahweh black like me or Nation Thislam black
like this.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Larger group of human beings. They mean it literally.
Speaker 6 (19:35):
I can't tell you what that what that means, except
that there are some groups the Nation of Islam. Wesley
Muhammad in some of his new work, he's a member
of the Nation of Islam and the research team is
arguing for the premissy of these pilots as black. For him,
there's the most evidence of that. And this idea of
(19:55):
the grays or Nordic for him comes later, right. He
ties it to a literature a great literary writer from England, HG. Wells,
who wrote War of the Worlds. He wrote another book
called The Millions Something. But Wesley Muhammad is saying that's
where the idea that they might not be black, that
they might be Nordic or something else comes from. And
(20:17):
he's saying that that's a projection, that that's a projection.
But again, these are all religious perspectives, yes, right, and
we're all familiar with War of the Worlds. But here
points to another text by HD. Wesn't I'm sorry that
I'm forgetting the name of it, in which H. G.
Wells wrote about future human beings and what they might
look like far in the future, and he cast them
(20:38):
as much more Nordic in their evolution. He's saying, that's
where the idea first originated that they might be something
other than black.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
And that's, of course Wesley Muhammad's work.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
When we come back, we're going to talk more with
doctor Finley. Here about you brought up Jeffrey Crapele. I
want to ask you about one of his works. You're
listening to Beyond Contact right here on the iHeartRadio and
Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network. We are back
(21:14):
on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with doctor Stephen Finley. Your friend.
Doctor Jeffrey Kreipel wrote a book called The Flip called
Epiphanies of the Mind and Future of Knowledge. In it,
he refers to the flip as the moment when somebody's
consciousness radically shifts, whether through like a mystical experience, trauma,
or like another intense encounter like a UFO event for example,
(21:36):
a siting or an abduction or contact. The experience, he
suggests this is the type of transformative event that challenges
our understanding of reality, leading people to question the nature
of consciousness, space, and time. Meaning really, it's a shift
in how we perceive and understand the world around us,
which is what you and I have been talking about.
What are your thoughts on that concept.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
Well, first of all, Jeff is a very good friend.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
I was just texting with with him a few days ago,
and we're constantly having these kinds of conversations about the
nature of UFOs, nature of reality, and regarding the book
The Flip, which I've read two or three times at least.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
I love the book.
Speaker 6 (22:11):
I love this idea of these epiphanies, especially that second chapter.
I think it's a second chapter that's specifically talking about
scientists or Flip scientists, and I just love the idea
that there is some experience of consciousness that radically alters
how people understand themselves and the world, and there's no
going back. Whether they had a scientific, materialist perspective or
(22:35):
a religious perspective, they have this epiphany in which sometimes
their view of reality is so expansive that neither of
those realities, religion nor science can capture how they understand reality.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
I would think the UFO experience would immediately transform anybody.
That's an epiphany for pretty much anyone.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
That's exactly right now now.
Speaker 6 (22:54):
What I do think Jeff is talking about theirs, especially
related to institutional really right that those are no longer helpful,
because I still want to see this epiphany, this shifted,
this radical change in consciousness as a religious experience.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Because it totally changes how people see reality and understand themselves.
Speaker 6 (23:13):
And I think sometimes the only language that people can
find to talk about it again, here's that concept of
language again and assigning language to it is the language
of the mystic. Like sometimes that's the only language that's
that's available to us, even if it's just analogous after
these these epiphanies.
Speaker 5 (23:29):
I love all of Jeff's work.
Speaker 6 (23:31):
But that book is a special one because it's written
to folks who who might be a materialists, who might
otherwise dismiss UFOs, especially if they're scientists or medical professionals
and so on, and so it really is an attempt
to take that whole community of and to give examples
of scholars and scientists who have had this epiphany.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Right, it's once it happens to you, then suddenly you
flip that's way about right now you're on the other side.
You know, we all have that. A lot of people.
Speaker 5 (24:00):
Whatever that other side might be, though, what is that space.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Well, it's it's you believe something beyond the material three
D Newtonian world that we live in. That's what I think.
Speaker 5 (24:11):
I totally agree.
Speaker 6 (24:12):
But even that space, I'm not sure that we really
we really can talk about concrete.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
I mean, I think.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
There are people that are locked into the material world,
and I think that I've certainly flipped that there's more.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
There is.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
I don't know anything, but there's more.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
That word more is so important.
Speaker 6 (24:29):
Actually more is the keyword here, which William James used
to talk about religion. That there is more is maybe
the primary experience. Maybe maybe one way of us describing
the Flipp's.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Title for you doc, There's more, More and more. Good title.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
I think if I could get to my books, if
I can, there you go. Unless it keeps me so busy,
I'm trying to get to my book.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
There are certain topics to me that transcend political affiliation
or race or gender or anything else. Metal, cannabis, for example,
or of course the UFO phenomenon. I understand the prominence
of UFOs in the belief system of the Nation of Islam,
but in reality that membership is relatively low. Let's say,
thirty or forty thousand people out of nearly fifty million
(25:15):
Black Americans, right, So how do you think in general
the broader Black community overall looks at UFOs and ets
as a whole, and is it different than the white
community does I don't think it should be, but I'm
asking you if you think it's different the nation of Islam.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
You know, it's hard to quantify their membership, but I
think some scholars have tried to guess. Lawrence Momea was
also on my PSD committee. He's gone now, but one
time he asked me to estimate their membership at least
at its height, at its height, and I estimated maybe
seventy five to one hundred thousand. We really just don't know,
but it is relatively small.
Speaker 6 (25:51):
Although I also have to point out that there are
numerous nations of Islam tips not just the way, of course.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
But what about the broader communication. What about the fifty
million Americans?
Speaker 6 (26:00):
I think actually most of them, in my experience, are
open to the idea that there is something else and
that UFOs might be read.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Okay, then why don't we see more black researchers in
the UFO community because it is very rare to come
across them.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
I agree, I think until my work.
Speaker 6 (26:17):
I'm not sure that we tried to connect some of
these dots that there are all of these African American
UFO encounters and what we might call UFO religions, there
just haven't been that many people in the community. And
also because uthology has been historically white and exclusive, and
you know, we're trying to break through that now.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
I don't even understand that at all though, because like
even you know, Bud Hopkins and doctor Jacobs and these
guys who have studied this and they have lots of data,
they tell me that it is truly an experience that
transcends all genders, all races, all age groups. It is
genuinely right across the board, equally dispersed. So then why
(26:58):
do we think, why would the African American community be
underrepresented here?
Speaker 6 (27:02):
Because it is only my only push to Jacobs and others,
I would say, yes, there's a universality, but there's also
a particularity in how groups experience, encounter and make sense
of these and what do we do with that tension?
So that's what I'm trying to get at. What do
we do with the tension, say, between how African Americans
(27:25):
such as the Nation of Islam and others interpret UFOs
and the cosmos as uniquely related to black experience and
its universality. What do we do with that, because we
can't throw one away for the other. Right, Sure, it's
a phenomena that happens across time and geography. And yet
there's this other tradition folks in these religious groups, African
(27:49):
American religious groups claim is older that goes back before
nineteen forty seven, right where UFOs are understood as much
more familiar as something you know, equally black. My question
is not about the universality, but what do we do
with the tension between universality and the particular?
Speaker 5 (28:07):
What do we do with that?
Speaker 6 (28:08):
How do we theorize that? What do we make of that?
That's the question that burdens me.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Do you think that the black community trust the government
less than other races?
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Wouldn't have reason to?
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Well?
Speaker 6 (28:17):
Sure, I mean when you think about when you think
about you know, institutional anti blackness, which was codified in slavery,
one hundred years of lynchings in which nobody ever got
you know, convictedable to Jim crow right, prison industrial complex,
with which uniquely targeted African American communities and black men
(28:39):
in particular, the war owned drugs as a government project,
and all the other conspiracies, some of which have valid experience.
I question whether the government had my best interests at
heart too.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
I agree with that. That's that's that's pretty obvious.
Speaker 6 (28:54):
It's really tough then to you know, to trust this government.
And so when you think from that perspective about UFOs,
then maybe UFOs in some sense are some rescue, some relief.
When you look at my book, there's a piece of
art on the cover. I don't know if you've ever
seen the cover of I. All right, so that's an
(29:15):
original piece of art by Delano Dunn, and it appears
to be two black women in what might be slave
guard and above their heads is this what looks like
a UFO. Two University Press did a really super job
finding that work of art and suggesting that I use
that as a cover for my book.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
They did that, not me. But I think the title of.
Speaker 6 (29:37):
That work is really interesting. I mean, the title of
that work of art is called Relieved of the Weight.
Relieved of the Weight, And in some ways I'd like
to see that maybe as an interpretation of my entire book,
that somehow UFOs in the black experience are seen as
some reprieve or respite from white supremacists anti blackness, an
(30:00):
existence that was circumscribed by anti black violence, institutional anti blackness,
constitutional anti blackness.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
And for me, it makes perfect sense then that folks
would look to.
Speaker 6 (30:13):
The cosmos who've had that kind of experience, that they
would look out there.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
That makes sense to me too. I get it. When
we come back, Doc, we're gonna take a quick break here,
we're gonna look further at the cosmology of the Nation
of Islam and their UFO thoughts. You're listening to Beyond
Contact right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
AM Paranormal Podcast Network. We are back on Beyond Contact.
(30:53):
It's Captain Ron talking to doctor Stephen Finley. Doc. Do
you see parallels between the Nation of Islam's UFO cosmology
and other ancient religious apocalyptic traditions.
Speaker 6 (31:04):
Sure, I think this idea that life in some ways
started out in the cosmos, or that there is life
in the cosmos, we see parallels all over the place.
And for the Nation of Islam, African American life or
black life, because it's not strictly African American existed for
sixty six trillion years. Some of that existence was in
(31:24):
the cosmos, particularly on Mars and Venus, where, for the
Nation of Islam black people lived twelve hundred years and
grew nine feet tall. Right, and particularly those those planets
show up all over the place in UFO ideas, right,
not simply the Nation of Islam, especially Mars and Venus.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Right.
Speaker 6 (31:41):
Of course Sunra was talking about Saturn and called the Saturn,
But Mars and Venus have a particular place in UFO
low and mythology. And so there are those parallels that
are obvious life in the cosmos, the connection between life
on Earth and life in the cosmos, this idea that life,
what we might call human life, might be older than
what we understand here, that it may have an origin
(32:04):
elsewhere out in the cosmos. There are all those kinds
of parallels, and the Nation of Islam seize themselves uniquely
to the cosmos and again to Mars and Venus, but
also to UFOs.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Let me ask you this, if we got irrefutable proof
of alien visitation, or we get official Big D disclosure,
let's say, what effect do you think that would have
on religions around the world.
Speaker 5 (32:25):
That's the million dollar question. I think some religions would.
Speaker 6 (32:28):
Try to incorporate it in a way to preserve their
systems and their authorities. And of course religions have already
tried to do that, right you mentioned you mentioned one
book when we first started, the writer was talking about
UFOs in the Bible, for example.
Speaker 5 (32:42):
That's one way. I think.
Speaker 6 (32:43):
Another way is for religion to be very dismissive and
maybe call them demonic, and of course we see that
already happens.
Speaker 5 (32:51):
But I think in the.
Speaker 6 (32:51):
Bigger picture, for these institutional religions, I think UFOs might
represent and aliens might represent a threat to their their hedgemoon,
their sense of power and authority.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
You know, there are even religions that are based on
the alien idea, like Unarious and Relians, and you know,
what are your thoughts on those?
Speaker 6 (33:11):
Well, that's a good question, because I'm talking about these established, large,
particularly monotheistic religions, So.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
Of course that's what I meant you ask that question.
It dawned on me when you were saying that that
there there are these others.
Speaker 6 (33:23):
Yea, for those religious groups, you know, there's one hundred
percent absolute proof depending on what that look like, and
what the contours and features of this proof?
Speaker 4 (33:33):
Will we all become relians at that point?
Speaker 5 (33:35):
I mean, that's that's the point. They might see it
as validates.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
They would say it that way for sure.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
As their own you know, for their own existence.
Speaker 6 (33:42):
And you know, since since you asked these questions, you know,
I think, I think that I want to be fair
to these religious groups. I'm not one who wants to
marginalize and see these groups as people who are crazy.
I think their religions just like these other institutionalized religions
who you know, many people this and respect. I want
to see them all as after the same thing. You know,
(34:04):
who are we, where we come from? What does all
this stuff mean? And so you know, we tend to
marginalize these religions where UFOs are are central.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
Yeah, but that's understandable, you can imagine because I think
to most people, those are tougher pills to swallow.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
I do, but they're only tougher pills to swallow because
they're not our pills.
Speaker 5 (34:21):
Right, there's somebody else's pills.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
You know.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
It's interesting. I teach one class as a semester at LSU.
I taught a lower division African American Religion class, so
it's a lecture class. The section that the students had
the most trouble with in this African American Religion course
was when I talked about UFOs and these African American
religious UFO traditions.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
They had the most trouble with that. I couldn't understand why.
I'm like, of all the ideas we've talked about that.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
I've read the isla Nation of Islam stuff. It's it's
a tough thing to get your head around.
Speaker 5 (34:56):
But I wasn't even talking about just that.
Speaker 6 (34:58):
I was talking about son Rah and profit Yahweh like
we talked about before, and a broad gamut of African
American UFO traditions, and they still just.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
Had a really hard time.
Speaker 6 (35:10):
They' s had a really hard time with that. Whereas
their own traditions because many of them Christians, they don't
see that as just as fanciful, you know, in its
own way. They just they just accept it.
Speaker 5 (35:20):
But even when we discussed other African American UFO traditions,
they didn't have as hard a time with it as
they did the UFO stuff. I don't know what to
do with that.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Yeah, that's that's fascinating. It really is. You know, as
I told you when I met you in person for
the first time, I credit with you one of my
favorite lines sayings that you had in that piece Cosmosis,
where you said that UFO believers are those who have
experienced the phenomenon or those of us compelled by the data.
(35:50):
I use this all the time. I think it's just
such a great phrasing thing. I want to ask you,
what data is it that compels you to believe that
the UFO phenomenon in et contact is real.
Speaker 5 (36:03):
That's a good question when we talk about data.
Speaker 6 (36:06):
When I used to teach a course at LSU Religion
and Paranormal that's actually a course that LSU has. It's
called Religion in Parapsychology, and I think it goes back
actually to the early eighties, and it's one of the
few courses on religion in the paranormal or parapsychology in
the country. In the area of religion, there are very
few courses. I'm not sure that there are very many.
(36:26):
And one of the things that I tell students is
I'm not asking you to believe. I'm not asking you
to believe because they come into it especially students in
the science is already skeptical, already ready to dismiss I
asked them to consider all the scholarship we're going to
read and the data, and then make a decision. I'm
never asking for belief, right, It's not about that to me.
(36:46):
So what I mean by data, I'm talking about UFO
showing up on radar, people having experiences of the c
I think we dismissed the anecdote too, for sure, far
too easily. Yep, we dismissed then, and I appreciate. I
heard Jack Fallet say one time when we talk about
the anecdotal These weren't his work, but what he was
(37:07):
saying was that we should consider that evidence. It's anecdotal evidence.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
All these form of evidence.
Speaker 6 (37:15):
Sure, that's exactly right, right, And so I think we've
dismissed that far too easily. Whereas I tend to take
people's experiences seriously. So there's physical evidence, right, both for
the paranormal UFOs and so on, But then there's this
first person experience that I want to see as evidence.
I don't want to dismiss these folks as less than healthy.
(37:37):
And I'm not saying there aren't those folks out there,
of course, of course there are. But the large number
of people I know who have claimed to have had
paranormal and UFO encounters are educated, sound mentally right, very lucid,
and so on. What are you going to do with that?
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Yeah, that's a tough thing where I don't have a
problem with that because I tend to think that's very possible.
But a lot of people do just struggle with that.
Speaker 6 (38:00):
Sure, sure, And I'm not even talking about, say, some
of the experimental stuff for parapsychology.
Speaker 7 (38:05):
No, no, right, yeah, right, which is evidence too, which has
long been you know, some of that gets ignored, but
you can find all kinds of experimental evidence for the
paranogm right in parapsychology.
Speaker 4 (38:16):
For sure, and more so now than ever. I think
it's really kind of a growing area. This whole side
thing is kind of taken off recently. What are your
thoughts on the position of academia on the UFO subject?
Speaker 8 (38:29):
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, No, I mean I'm troubled,
And maybe that's why I stuttered, because I'm in the academy, right,
and I think in many ways the academy is a problem.
Speaker 6 (38:42):
I think in some ways the Academy is a stomach block.
You know, the mission of American colleges and universities is
supposed to be the creation and dissemination of new knowledge, right,
and yet what I find very often in the Academy
is that when you're talking about new nol outside of
the materialist norms, which is the primary culture and perspective
(39:05):
of the academy, your you're marginalized and dismissed. And this
is this is before people have even seen any of
the evidence. So I was talking more than more than
once at LSU just casually what people say in psychology
and other disciplines, and they immediately dismiss UFOs as something
psychological without ever having read any scholarship, been in encounter
(39:27):
groups groups. That's that's exactly right. And it strikes me
that that's counter to what the university is supposed to be.
And so it's it's it's a problem. So when you
think about my position in the Academy in religion and
Black studies as an African American male, which is a
very small number of maybe only African America, is only
four percent, maybe five percent of professors who are tenured
(39:49):
or on tendure track, in the entire country, and that's
including the black schools. And then you look at what
my particular research interests are, like what we're discussing, and
think about my experience in I mean, it's a tough one.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
It's a tough I would think so. But man, thanks
for coming on. It was a lot of fun talking
about this with you.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
Hey. Where can people find you?
Speaker 6 (40:09):
The website at LSU, which we're updating, the Department of
African African American Studies.
Speaker 5 (40:15):
If they google Steven C.
Speaker 6 (40:16):
Finley, they could see my books and articles and a
lot of the TV shows and documentaries I have done.
My email addresses is online of course on the Apartment
of African African American Studies, and they can email me
if they like excellent.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at cd
underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out contact inthedesert
dot com. Stay open minded and rational as we explore
the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to
Code am Paranormal podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost
a Paranormal podcast net, and make sure and check out
all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going
to iHeartRadio dot com
You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM
Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,
and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with
Captain Rong.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and
opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions
only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast
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and associates. We would like to encourage you to do
(00:41):
your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week are Beyond
Contact for the latest news in ufology, discuss some of
the classic cases and bring you the latest information from
the newest.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Cases as we talk with the top experts. Welcome to
Beyond Contact. I am Captain Ron, and today we are
speaking with doctor Stephen Finley. Doctor Finley is a professor
of Religious Studies and African American Studies at Louisiana State University.
Doctor Finley is also an author, and he defines religion
as a mechanism for people to comprehend their place and
(01:30):
purpose in the world. He has also become quite embroiled
in the entire UFO arena, and he looks at this
from a spiritual, cultural, and historical dimensions regarding UFOs. So
we're really happy to have him here today. Hey, Doc,
how you doing, Bud?
Speaker 5 (01:44):
That was pretty good. I'm doing pretty well.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
You know.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
It's ideal to have you on right now because I
feel like I have seen a bit of an uptick
of sorts tying the UFO phenomenon to religion, with prominent
people and researchers to talking about this and even contact
these such as Chris Bledsoe and a few others who
seem to feel like this is more of a religious experience.
Chris specifically claims that some of the orbs that he's
(02:12):
witnessed are in fact angels or angelic energy beings. I
think he calls them. Have you heard of this and
what are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 5 (02:20):
I have heard of that?
Speaker 6 (02:21):
Chris Bledsoe was saying in fact, I had an opportunity
to attend the gathering that he hosted one of those nights,
Monday night, yep. Contact in the Desert. Yeah, and that
was a really interesting meeting, I will say that for me,
religion is a primary lens in which to understand the
UFO phenomena.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
One because we're not exactly sure what it is.
Speaker 6 (02:43):
Sometimes it acts like you know, UFOs act like physical phenomena.
Sometimes they act like something much more paranormal. Whatever the
case is, UFOs make us think about our world and
what it means. So when I talk about religion, that's
primarily what I'm talking about. I'm talking about me how
people find meaning, just like you said in your intro,
how people understand their place in the world. And there's
(03:05):
no way that UFOs can't push those kinds of questions.
In fact, they do even if you're a scientist, they
still push our place in the world.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
You know, what does it mean to be human? What
does our place in the in the universe then mean?
If they're let's just say they are physical objects, they
are evidence of intellect from other worlds, Like you know,
some research projects like Galileo project that are that still
pushes us to think about what's our place in the world.
And for me, that's a primary religious question.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
No doubt about it. I feel the exact same way,
and I think it's been going on since we developed language, Yes,
as soon as we could think about It's the first
thing I would ask as a developing human being. You know,
it's like, what's over there? What's up in the sky?
What has anyone else been here? You know what I mean?
That's that's primal. I would say, that's right.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
And language. I'm glad you started off there.
Speaker 6 (03:55):
The language is really important because the phenomena, as people
have experience, is so complicate.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
It we actually have difficulty assigning language.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
To it absolutely because we're talking about what these terms
are that's right, call it this or that. It always
frustrates me because how do we know that's right? In farness?
We we don't know what to call it correct? Uh.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
You know.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
We also hear over and over that some of these
people involved in the governments, as they call it legacy programs,
also feel that this may be tied to religion, and
that might be one of the key reasons they do
not want to let this UFO information out because they
believe it might be demonic. Have you heard this line
of thinking and what are your thoughts on it?
Speaker 5 (04:36):
I have heard that line of thinking.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
I think Ted Peters writes about, you know, religion in
that sense, especially from the Christian perspective. That's that's interesting
that folks in the government would take that perspective, because
of course, when I talk about religion, where folks like
Jeffrey Krapt will talk about religion and others who are trained,
instead of religion, we're talking about something much broader than
these institutional forms of religiosity, so that they can't be
(05:01):
captured by these structures, say Islam or Judaism, or Christianity
or Buddhism and so on. They push much more intrinsic
and basic questions about the nature of human beings, the
nature of the world and the universe, and like I said,
our place in it. So I appreciate the fact that
(05:21):
they're talking about religion, I would just like to push
a little bit about how they're talking about religion. And
if I might add one other thing. You know, this
whole idea of UFOs potentially being demonic, it's a highly
Christian idea, but it also seems to cohere with this
this government notion that they represent some kind of threat
(05:43):
to the planet and to the United States and so on,
And for me, that's sort of a problematic way of
understanding UFOs, which means that our response is military, right
when we really don't know what's going on here.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Well, a lot of people say that they purpose push
that narrative so we will funnel more money into you know,
the industrial military complex, and that kind my design, they
want us to feel that way. Doctor Greer and other
people feel that the aliens have not displayed violence or
harm in any way that as far as we know yet,
we seem to kind of push that narrative that perhaps
(06:20):
our military wants us to feel that way.
Speaker 5 (06:23):
Sure, and let me respond to something else that you
just said.
Speaker 6 (06:26):
I'm not totally convinced in the alien thesis, you know,
I think that is a possibility.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
I guess what we have to.
Speaker 6 (06:33):
Agree here is that the UFO phenomena may not be
one singular thing.
Speaker 5 (06:37):
It may be a class of very diverse.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
One thousand percent right.
Speaker 6 (06:42):
Yeah, Because I'm also open to the to the thesis
such as Michael Masters Jacques Lay who have argued that
these are humans from the future, right who have mastered space,
time and so on.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
It I find that really compelling thesis.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Frankly, there's ideas of you know, is it ultra compastorals?
I got a ton of ten pastorals that live on
this planet alongside of us. There's interdimensional there's all of
these things, and then you have the history of gin
and ghosts and different beings. Are these all the same thing?
I doubt it. There's probably more than one phenomenon going on, right, Yes.
Speaker 6 (07:17):
That's right, And that's why I love the study of
UFOs actually because I enter this discussion, as you said
in your intro, from Black studies and religion, which means
that my perspective is going to be very different, and
in terms of UFO UFP studies, probably a very unique
perspective for sure.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Specifically, I want to ask you about what about the Bible.
For example, there's that guy Bury Downing wrote a book
back in the sixties, and there's others that have written
books about the link between the Bible itself and specifically UFOs.
Have you seen a correlation of references to ets and
UFOs in the Bible.
Speaker 6 (07:53):
Let me first say that I have that book that
one of my fraternity brothers actually sent me a copy
of it that I that I haven't read yet because
he knew that was right up my island for sure.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
And not that long ago.
Speaker 6 (08:05):
He sent me a copy that that book is probably
a classic, given given when it was written, and at
some point I had to get to it. I will
say that with respect to the Bible, there are a
lot of ways of looking at it. I think the
most frequent connection that people make is with this idea
of a charriot you're fully aware of, like with Elijah
and will within will. That's that's exactly right. And Ezekiel's
(08:28):
will within a will is particularly relevant for for some
of the groups that I study.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
And so I do see all of those connections.
Speaker 6 (08:35):
The groups that I study make explicit connections to some
of these texts, especially Ezekiel in that in that first chapter. Again,
as a person who's approaching religion in UFOs, as a scholar,
I don't have a perspective in terms of what I
find most compelling in terms of, you know, something I
might believe. I'm interested in all of it and how
(08:55):
folks use the Bible and other sources to make sense
of the phenomena, including some of these texts we're discussing.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
For sure, Well, that's what I want to ask you.
Are there other texts that we see these sorts of
UFOs in, for example, Besides the Bible, I think.
Speaker 6 (09:09):
People make reference often to Moses and the whole saga
the children of Israel, you know, led by what was
that a flame or something like that. That's a reference
in Hebrew Bible, Old Testament that I hear often. They're
clearly a good handful of texts that are really important
for folks in UFO and religion, you know, especially in
the smaller religions, like the groups that I study, like
(09:32):
the like the Nation of Islam, which I know we're
going to get to, or these two black women called
the UFO Twins, the United New Wabbian Nation of Moors,
even Sunrah, you know, the great jazz artists and poet.
I consider all of those religious perspectives of UFOs and
transport and cosmic realities and even aliens. All of those
(09:54):
for me are religious perspectives because you have you have
people really engaging these ideas is and trying to make
sense of them over against them. They're thinking about who
they are, where they come from, what is the meaning
of life?
Speaker 5 (10:08):
And again all of those are religious questions.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
There again, they're primal too. When we come back, we're
going to talk more with doctor Finley and ask him
about some of the paintings and other depictions of UFOs
in religious art throughout the years. You're listening to Beyond
Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal
podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking
(10:49):
with doctor Stephen Finley. Doc, what do you think about
some of these religious paintings from the Renaissance period. I'm
sure you've seen these. There are many of them, you know.
I try to keep a very open in mind to
these subjects and be very objective and rational as I can.
And I got to tell you, I've seen some of
these paintings, and from my eyes, that does look like
(11:10):
a guy in a UFO craft. I don't know what
else it could be. Like. It's this round craft, he's
sitting in it, he's holding controls, he's up in the stars.
I don't know how else to interpret that other than
not necessarily UFO, but certainly a spacecraft or something. Right.
Speaker 6 (11:26):
I've seen those, some of those pictures, and I find
them compelling to and other pictures like pictures of the
Virgin and child.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
Sure with it in the background they're looking yes, yeh.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
That's exactly right, you know.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
I had an interesting conversation when I was at another
conference in San Francisco just last year. I was talking
about the work that I do with one of the
attendees who was from Japan. He was accompanying an actual
member of their parliament who was in charge of the
study of UAP and we were talking about the connection
even between Japan and Japanese. And then they said and
(12:00):
he was talking about and showed me a picture of
an old Japanese painting. I don't know if you've ever
seen those with what he sees as a UFO in
the background.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
And I thought that was.
Speaker 6 (12:12):
Really interesting, especially for the work that I do, because
even the Nation of Islam claims that the origin of
what they call the Motherwheel was in Japan in nineteen
twenty nine. They say it was built in the Japanese
Islands in nineteen twenty nine.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
And that was super interesting.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Oh very much. So, you know, there's so many different
interpretations of the UFO phenomenon throughout history. In Communion, the
book by Whitley Strieber, he points out some old accounts
that seem like they could have been an alien experience
from people. In fact, he tells one story of fairies
that came down from the trees. Do you think that
this is sort of simply people putting their own lens
(12:52):
on a unique experience, like they didn't know what to
call it. Like one person's ghosts is another person's dead
relative is another religious figure is another et for another person.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
Sure. I like Whitley. I know Whitley.
Speaker 6 (13:04):
I've been in a lot of meetings with him, private
and public. I find much of what he has to
say compelling. I know some of the counts that he's
talking about. I think there's a very real chance in
some of these fairy type of counts, they didn't have
a language to describe what they were talking about, and
they could very well be UFO encounters. At the same time,
You're absolutely right, we could be projecting, we could be
(13:26):
trying to fit various phenomena into this UFO phenomena when
they might fit or might not fit. But I think
it's quite possible that some of these early accounts were
actually UFO appearances.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
How do you think that the cultural influences affect somebody's
interpretation of some of these paranormal or extraterrestrial experiences.
Speaker 6 (13:47):
Well, I think, for example, the groups that I study
are primarily African American, and when they encounter UFOs, they're
always making connections to Black experience, always making connections to
to sharecropping and slavery and racial violence including lynching and
so on. And so I think culture is and experience
are two very important lenses, and everybody has a lens.
(14:10):
Most of us have multiple lenses that intersect and overlap.
And I think for many African Americans who couldn't find
adequate meaning here outside of again the sort of historical
realities that I just mentioned and these narratives of black inferiority,
took these experiences and saw themselves as having a greater
existence that wasn't simply contained within this earthly reality where
(14:35):
they were slaves or where they were oppressed, and saw
out in the cosmos possibilities for who they might be,
and so used those experiences to question white supremacists and
anti black notions of who black people are. And so
that's just a very good example of how people take
experience and culture and use it then to think specifically
(14:58):
in their particular situation about who they are.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
You know, you've pointed out the analogy. You know, that's
pretty clear of how some people would equate an alien abduction.
How it's an analogous to when African Americans were picked
up by different looking people, white people, yes, put on
a ship, taken for a long journey to a strange
foreign land, you know, during the slave trade. Clearly there
(15:22):
are parallels to the horrific slavery experiences they went through,
as well as accounts of alien abduction experiences. This has
influenced some people's some different groups of people's UFO experiences differently.
You know, how would you speak to that?
Speaker 6 (15:36):
Well, first of all, I think that's a really important
analogy that I can't take credit for. The afrofuturists actually
came up with that analogy, and they want to see, Well.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
I think anybody on its face, it's so obvious I
think right here and come up with that, you know
what I.
Speaker 6 (15:51):
Mean, I totally agree with you because to me, I mean,
how else would you see that as an alien other
than an alien reduction? I'm sure see, you know, they're
in Africa, the ships show up, they've never seen white people,
and automatically they're mythologizing about them. Of course, these are
dead relatives who have returned, right, which I think is
a really important insight because now you have all these
(16:13):
people talking about the relationship between UFOs and death and
souls and which has an analogy and the very beginnings
of the modern black experience in the West, I either
with the slave trade, right, And so for me, viewing
UFOs through Black studies like I do and religion opens
up all kinds of possibilities that are analogous to the
(16:36):
ways that people are talking about what UFOs might be.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Absolutely, you know, interestingly, there are also some very powerful
alien contact accounts from African tribes like the Dogon tribe
of Mali for example. These are classic UFO tales that
are really intriguing to me. You know, ancient people have
said some of these fascinating things. How could they know
with the Dogan new you know, the star map example,
(17:02):
What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 6 (17:03):
I totally agree. You know, I have a friend named
doctor Marcus Reed, Marcus Read, who actually talks about the
do gods in the context of UFOs. But it's also
interesting that when Bootsie Collins if you remember that name
in George wars Ye from Parliament, that's right, that's right.
So when they had their UFO encounter, that's one of
the first connections that they made. George Clinton talks about
(17:24):
the dogons, No way, he connected immediately to the dogons
and their stargates, just like you suggested.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (17:34):
And that's and that's the point to me about UFOs
in Black experience. They're always signaling how it's connected to
aspects of Black culture, ancient and modern and black experience.
And that's just one example of it.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
That's really interesting, you know. I think it's also interesting
that you have said that some of these UFO accounts
you've heard from black individuals claim that they've seen black pilots.
I find this absolutely fascinating. I wonder what you think
it could mean to me at points like it could
possibly be projecting or manifesting their vision somehow, or perhaps
(18:08):
even you could go as far as to say that
the aliens are putting on this facade or this look
because maybe the contact ee is expecting that, or they're
trying to make it comfortable for them, or so, what
are your thoughts about it?
Speaker 6 (18:21):
First of all, I think that's an excellent question, and
again I have to bracket my response in the context
of being a researcher in scholar because what I want
to suggest is that when people like the Nation of
Islam say they've seen the pilots, pilots represent all the
races within blackness, which isn't just like African, they're African Americans.
For them, Asians, Native Americans, LATINX are all part of
(18:44):
what they what they mean when they say black, And
for the Nation of Islam.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
It basically could say non white basically in a sense innocence,
but especially LATINX or Latino and Latina, Asian, Native American.
Speaker 6 (18:57):
And African African American, and they say that the pilots
represent all of those particular groups. Now, when it comes
to what's his name, the UFO summoner who used to
live in Las Vegashweh Prophet Yahweh Yahweh, is much more
literal when he says these pilots which he which he
claimed to have witnessed, are black. He means black like me, right,
(19:19):
not something more complicated like the Nation of Islav. I
don't know what to make of that, except that for
them it's literal. They mean they're literally black. Whether you
mean Prophet Yahweh black like me or Nation Thislam black
like this.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Larger group of human beings. They mean it literally.
Speaker 6 (19:35):
I can't tell you what that what that means, except
that there are some groups the Nation of Islam. Wesley
Muhammad in some of his new work, he's a member
of the Nation of Islam and the research team is
arguing for the premissy of these pilots as black. For him,
there's the most evidence of that. And this idea of
(19:55):
the grays or Nordic for him comes later, right. He
ties it to a literature a great literary writer from England, HG. Wells,
who wrote War of the Worlds. He wrote another book
called The Millions Something. But Wesley Muhammad is saying that's
where the idea that they might not be black, that
they might be Nordic or something else comes from. And
(20:17):
he's saying that that's a projection, that that's a projection.
But again, these are all religious perspectives, yes, right, and
we're all familiar with War of the Worlds. But here
points to another text by HD. Wesn't I'm sorry that
I'm forgetting the name of it, in which H. G.
Wells wrote about future human beings and what they might
look like far in the future, and he cast them
(20:38):
as much more Nordic in their evolution. He's saying, that's
where the idea first originated that they might be something
other than black.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
And that's, of course Wesley Muhammad's work.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
When we come back, we're going to talk more with
doctor Finley. Here about you brought up Jeffrey Crapele. I
want to ask you about one of his works. You're
listening to Beyond Contact right here on the iHeartRadio and
Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network. We are back
(21:14):
on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with doctor Stephen Finley. Your friend.
Doctor Jeffrey Kreipel wrote a book called The Flip called
Epiphanies of the Mind and Future of Knowledge. In it,
he refers to the flip as the moment when somebody's
consciousness radically shifts, whether through like a mystical experience, trauma,
or like another intense encounter like a UFO event for example,
(21:36):
a siting or an abduction or contact. The experience, he
suggests this is the type of transformative event that challenges
our understanding of reality, leading people to question the nature
of consciousness, space, and time. Meaning really, it's a shift
in how we perceive and understand the world around us,
which is what you and I have been talking about.
What are your thoughts on that concept.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
Well, first of all, Jeff is a very good friend.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
I was just texting with with him a few days ago,
and we're constantly having these kinds of conversations about the
nature of UFOs, nature of reality, and regarding the book
The Flip, which I've read two or three times at least.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
I love the book.
Speaker 6 (22:11):
I love this idea of these epiphanies, especially that second chapter.
I think it's a second chapter that's specifically talking about
scientists or Flip scientists, and I just love the idea
that there is some experience of consciousness that radically alters
how people understand themselves and the world, and there's no
going back. Whether they had a scientific, materialist perspective or
(22:35):
a religious perspective, they have this epiphany in which sometimes
their view of reality is so expansive that neither of
those realities, religion nor science can capture how they understand reality.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
I would think the UFO experience would immediately transform anybody.
That's an epiphany for pretty much anyone.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
That's exactly right now now.
Speaker 6 (22:54):
What I do think Jeff is talking about theirs, especially
related to institutional really right that those are no longer helpful,
because I still want to see this epiphany, this shifted,
this radical change in consciousness as a religious experience.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Because it totally changes how people see reality and understand themselves.
Speaker 6 (23:13):
And I think sometimes the only language that people can
find to talk about it again, here's that concept of
language again and assigning language to it is the language
of the mystic. Like sometimes that's the only language that's
that's available to us, even if it's just analogous after
these these epiphanies.
Speaker 5 (23:29):
I love all of Jeff's work.
Speaker 6 (23:31):
But that book is a special one because it's written
to folks who who might be a materialists, who might
otherwise dismiss UFOs, especially if they're scientists or medical professionals
and so on, and so it really is an attempt
to take that whole community of and to give examples
of scholars and scientists who have had this epiphany.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Right, it's once it happens to you, then suddenly you
flip that's way about right now you're on the other side.
You know, we all have that. A lot of people.
Speaker 5 (24:00):
Whatever that other side might be, though, what is that space.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Well, it's it's you believe something beyond the material three
D Newtonian world that we live in. That's what I think.
Speaker 5 (24:11):
I totally agree.
Speaker 6 (24:12):
But even that space, I'm not sure that we really
we really can talk about concrete.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
I mean, I think.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
There are people that are locked into the material world,
and I think that I've certainly flipped that there's more.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
There is.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
I don't know anything, but there's more.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
That word more is so important.
Speaker 6 (24:29):
Actually more is the keyword here, which William James used
to talk about religion. That there is more is maybe
the primary experience. Maybe maybe one way of us describing
the Flipp's.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Title for you doc, There's more, More and more. Good title.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
I think if I could get to my books, if
I can, there you go. Unless it keeps me so busy,
I'm trying to get to my book.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
There are certain topics to me that transcend political affiliation
or race or gender or anything else. Metal, cannabis, for example,
or of course the UFO phenomenon. I understand the prominence
of UFOs in the belief system of the Nation of Islam,
but in reality that membership is relatively low. Let's say,
thirty or forty thousand people out of nearly fifty million
(25:15):
Black Americans, right, So how do you think in general
the broader Black community overall looks at UFOs and ets
as a whole, and is it different than the white
community does I don't think it should be, but I'm
asking you if you think it's different the nation of Islam.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
You know, it's hard to quantify their membership, but I
think some scholars have tried to guess. Lawrence Momea was
also on my PSD committee. He's gone now, but one
time he asked me to estimate their membership at least
at its height, at its height, and I estimated maybe
seventy five to one hundred thousand. We really just don't know,
but it is relatively small.
Speaker 6 (25:51):
Although I also have to point out that there are
numerous nations of Islam tips not just the way, of course.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
But what about the broader communication. What about the fifty
million Americans?
Speaker 6 (26:00):
I think actually most of them, in my experience, are
open to the idea that there is something else and
that UFOs might be read.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Okay, then why don't we see more black researchers in
the UFO community because it is very rare to come
across them.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
I agree, I think until my work.
Speaker 6 (26:17):
I'm not sure that we tried to connect some of
these dots that there are all of these African American
UFO encounters and what we might call UFO religions, there
just haven't been that many people in the community. And
also because uthology has been historically white and exclusive, and
you know, we're trying to break through that now.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
I don't even understand that at all though, because like
even you know, Bud Hopkins and doctor Jacobs and these
guys who have studied this and they have lots of data,
they tell me that it is truly an experience that
transcends all genders, all races, all age groups. It is
genuinely right across the board, equally dispersed. So then why
(26:58):
do we think, why would the African American community be
underrepresented here?
Speaker 6 (27:02):
Because it is only my only push to Jacobs and others,
I would say, yes, there's a universality, but there's also
a particularity in how groups experience, encounter and make sense
of these and what do we do with that tension?
So that's what I'm trying to get at. What do
we do with the tension, say, between how African Americans
(27:25):
such as the Nation of Islam and others interpret UFOs
and the cosmos as uniquely related to black experience and
its universality. What do we do with that, because we
can't throw one away for the other. Right, Sure, it's
a phenomena that happens across time and geography. And yet
there's this other tradition folks in these religious groups, African
(27:49):
American religious groups claim is older that goes back before
nineteen forty seven, right where UFOs are understood as much
more familiar as something you know, equally black. My question
is not about the universality, but what do we do
with the tension between universality and the particular?
Speaker 5 (28:07):
What do we do with that?
Speaker 6 (28:08):
How do we theorize that? What do we make of that?
That's the question that burdens me.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Do you think that the black community trust the government
less than other races?
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Wouldn't have reason to?
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Well?
Speaker 6 (28:17):
Sure, I mean when you think about when you think
about you know, institutional anti blackness, which was codified in slavery,
one hundred years of lynchings in which nobody ever got
you know, convictedable to Jim crow right, prison industrial complex,
with which uniquely targeted African American communities and black men
(28:39):
in particular, the war owned drugs as a government project,
and all the other conspiracies, some of which have valid experience.
I question whether the government had my best interests at
heart too.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
I agree with that. That's that's that's pretty obvious.
Speaker 6 (28:54):
It's really tough then to you know, to trust this government.
And so when you think from that perspective about UFOs,
then maybe UFOs in some sense are some rescue, some relief.
When you look at my book, there's a piece of
art on the cover. I don't know if you've ever
seen the cover of I. All right, so that's an
(29:15):
original piece of art by Delano Dunn, and it appears
to be two black women in what might be slave
guard and above their heads is this what looks like
a UFO. Two University Press did a really super job
finding that work of art and suggesting that I use
that as a cover for my book.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
They did that, not me. But I think the title of.
Speaker 6 (29:37):
That work is really interesting. I mean, the title of
that work of art is called Relieved of the Weight.
Relieved of the Weight, And in some ways I'd like
to see that maybe as an interpretation of my entire book,
that somehow UFOs in the black experience are seen as
some reprieve or respite from white supremacists anti blackness, an
(30:00):
existence that was circumscribed by anti black violence, institutional anti blackness,
constitutional anti blackness.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
And for me, it makes perfect sense then that folks
would look to.
Speaker 6 (30:13):
The cosmos who've had that kind of experience, that they
would look out there.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
That makes sense to me too. I get it. When
we come back, Doc, we're gonna take a quick break here,
we're gonna look further at the cosmology of the Nation
of Islam and their UFO thoughts. You're listening to Beyond
Contact right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
AM Paranormal Podcast Network. We are back on Beyond Contact.
(30:53):
It's Captain Ron talking to doctor Stephen Finley. Doc. Do
you see parallels between the Nation of Islam's UFO cosmology
and other ancient religious apocalyptic traditions.
Speaker 6 (31:04):
Sure, I think this idea that life in some ways
started out in the cosmos, or that there is life
in the cosmos, we see parallels all over the place.
And for the Nation of Islam, African American life or
black life, because it's not strictly African American existed for
sixty six trillion years. Some of that existence was in
(31:24):
the cosmos, particularly on Mars and Venus, where, for the
Nation of Islam black people lived twelve hundred years and
grew nine feet tall. Right, and particularly those those planets
show up all over the place in UFO ideas, right,
not simply the Nation of Islam, especially Mars and Venus.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Right.
Speaker 6 (31:41):
Of course Sunra was talking about Saturn and called the Saturn,
But Mars and Venus have a particular place in UFO
low and mythology. And so there are those parallels that
are obvious life in the cosmos, the connection between life
on Earth and life in the cosmos, this idea that life,
what we might call human life, might be older than
what we understand here, that it may have an origin
(32:04):
elsewhere out in the cosmos. There are all those kinds
of parallels, and the Nation of Islam seize themselves uniquely
to the cosmos and again to Mars and Venus, but
also to UFOs.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Let me ask you this, if we got irrefutable proof
of alien visitation, or we get official Big D disclosure,
let's say, what effect do you think that would have
on religions around the world.
Speaker 5 (32:25):
That's the million dollar question. I think some religions would.
Speaker 6 (32:28):
Try to incorporate it in a way to preserve their
systems and their authorities. And of course religions have already
tried to do that, right you mentioned you mentioned one
book when we first started, the writer was talking about
UFOs in the Bible, for example.
Speaker 5 (32:42):
That's one way. I think.
Speaker 6 (32:43):
Another way is for religion to be very dismissive and
maybe call them demonic, and of course we see that
already happens.
Speaker 5 (32:51):
But I think in the.
Speaker 6 (32:51):
Bigger picture, for these institutional religions, I think UFOs might
represent and aliens might represent a threat to their their hedgemoon,
their sense of power and authority.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
You know, there are even religions that are based on
the alien idea, like Unarious and Relians, and you know,
what are your thoughts on those?
Speaker 6 (33:11):
Well, that's a good question, because I'm talking about these established, large,
particularly monotheistic religions, So.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
Of course that's what I meant you ask that question.
It dawned on me when you were saying that that
there there are these others.
Speaker 6 (33:23):
Yea, for those religious groups, you know, there's one hundred
percent absolute proof depending on what that look like, and
what the contours and features of this proof?
Speaker 4 (33:33):
Will we all become relians at that point?
Speaker 5 (33:35):
I mean, that's that's the point. They might see it
as validates.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
They would say it that way for sure.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
As their own you know, for their own existence.
Speaker 6 (33:42):
And you know, since since you asked these questions, you know,
I think, I think that I want to be fair
to these religious groups. I'm not one who wants to
marginalize and see these groups as people who are crazy.
I think their religions just like these other institutionalized religions
who you know, many people this and respect. I want
to see them all as after the same thing. You know,
(34:04):
who are we, where we come from? What does all
this stuff mean? And so you know, we tend to
marginalize these religions where UFOs are are central.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
Yeah, but that's understandable, you can imagine because I think
to most people, those are tougher pills to swallow.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
I do, but they're only tougher pills to swallow because
they're not our pills.
Speaker 5 (34:21):
Right, there's somebody else's pills.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
You know.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
It's interesting. I teach one class as a semester at LSU.
I taught a lower division African American Religion class, so
it's a lecture class. The section that the students had
the most trouble with in this African American Religion course
was when I talked about UFOs and these African American
religious UFO traditions.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
They had the most trouble with that. I couldn't understand why.
I'm like, of all the ideas we've talked about that.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
I've read the isla Nation of Islam stuff. It's it's
a tough thing to get your head around.
Speaker 5 (34:56):
But I wasn't even talking about just that.
Speaker 6 (34:58):
I was talking about son Rah and profit Yahweh like
we talked about before, and a broad gamut of African
American UFO traditions, and they still just.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
Had a really hard time.
Speaker 6 (35:10):
They' s had a really hard time with that. Whereas
their own traditions because many of them Christians, they don't
see that as just as fanciful, you know, in its
own way. They just they just accept it.
Speaker 5 (35:20):
But even when we discussed other African American UFO traditions,
they didn't have as hard a time with it as
they did the UFO stuff. I don't know what to
do with that.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Yeah, that's that's fascinating. It really is. You know, as
I told you when I met you in person for
the first time, I credit with you one of my
favorite lines sayings that you had in that piece Cosmosis,
where you said that UFO believers are those who have
experienced the phenomenon or those of us compelled by the data.
(35:50):
I use this all the time. I think it's just
such a great phrasing thing. I want to ask you,
what data is it that compels you to believe that
the UFO phenomenon in et contact is real.
Speaker 5 (36:03):
That's a good question when we talk about data.
Speaker 6 (36:06):
When I used to teach a course at LSU Religion
and Paranormal that's actually a course that LSU has. It's
called Religion in Parapsychology, and I think it goes back
actually to the early eighties, and it's one of the
few courses on religion in the paranormal or parapsychology in
the country. In the area of religion, there are very
few courses. I'm not sure that there are very many.
(36:26):
And one of the things that I tell students is
I'm not asking you to believe. I'm not asking you
to believe because they come into it especially students in
the science is already skeptical, already ready to dismiss I
asked them to consider all the scholarship we're going to
read and the data, and then make a decision. I'm
never asking for belief, right, It's not about that to me.
(36:46):
So what I mean by data, I'm talking about UFO
showing up on radar, people having experiences of the c
I think we dismissed the anecdote too, for sure, far
too easily. Yep, we dismissed then, and I appreciate. I
heard Jack Fallet say one time when we talk about
the anecdotal These weren't his work, but what he was
(37:07):
saying was that we should consider that evidence. It's anecdotal evidence.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
All these form of evidence.
Speaker 6 (37:15):
Sure, that's exactly right, right, And so I think we've
dismissed that far too easily. Whereas I tend to take
people's experiences seriously. So there's physical evidence, right, both for
the paranormal UFOs and so on, But then there's this
first person experience that I want to see as evidence.
I don't want to dismiss these folks as less than healthy.
(37:37):
And I'm not saying there aren't those folks out there,
of course, of course there are. But the large number
of people I know who have claimed to have had
paranormal and UFO encounters are educated, sound mentally right, very lucid,
and so on. What are you going to do with that?
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Yeah, that's a tough thing where I don't have a
problem with that because I tend to think that's very possible.
But a lot of people do just struggle with that.
Speaker 6 (38:00):
Sure, sure, And I'm not even talking about, say, some
of the experimental stuff for parapsychology.
Speaker 7 (38:05):
No, no, right, yeah, right, which is evidence too, which has
long been you know, some of that gets ignored, but
you can find all kinds of experimental evidence for the
paranogm right in parapsychology.
Speaker 4 (38:16):
For sure, and more so now than ever. I think
it's really kind of a growing area. This whole side
thing is kind of taken off recently. What are your
thoughts on the position of academia on the UFO subject?
Speaker 8 (38:29):
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, No, I mean I'm troubled,
And maybe that's why I stuttered, because I'm in the academy, right,
and I think in many ways the academy is a problem.
Speaker 6 (38:42):
I think in some ways the Academy is a stomach block.
You know, the mission of American colleges and universities is
supposed to be the creation and dissemination of new knowledge, right,
and yet what I find very often in the Academy
is that when you're talking about new nol outside of
the materialist norms, which is the primary culture and perspective
(39:05):
of the academy, your you're marginalized and dismissed. And this
is this is before people have even seen any of
the evidence. So I was talking more than more than
once at LSU just casually what people say in psychology
and other disciplines, and they immediately dismiss UFOs as something
psychological without ever having read any scholarship, been in encounter
(39:27):
groups groups. That's that's exactly right. And it strikes me
that that's counter to what the university is supposed to be.
And so it's it's it's a problem. So when you
think about my position in the Academy in religion and
Black studies as an African American male, which is a
very small number of maybe only African America, is only
four percent, maybe five percent of professors who are tenured
(39:49):
or on tendure track, in the entire country, and that's
including the black schools. And then you look at what
my particular research interests are, like what we're discussing, and
think about my experience in I mean, it's a tough one.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
It's a tough I would think so. But man, thanks
for coming on. It was a lot of fun talking
about this with you.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
Hey. Where can people find you?
Speaker 6 (40:09):
The website at LSU, which we're updating, the Department of
African African American Studies.
Speaker 5 (40:15):
If they google Steven C.
Speaker 6 (40:16):
Finley, they could see my books and articles and a
lot of the TV shows and documentaries I have done.
My email addresses is online of course on the Apartment
of African African American Studies, and they can email me
if they like excellent.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at cd
underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out contact inthedesert
dot com. Stay open minded and rational as we explore
the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to
Code am Paranormal podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost
a Paranormal podcast net, and make sure and check out
all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going
to iHeartRadio dot com
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