October 15, 2025 • 12 mins
George Noory and religious studies professor Joseph Laycock discuss how The Exorcist shaped public perception of demonic possession.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast am on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
You're right about Cardinal John O'Connor, which I think he
passed away in two thousand.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Did he not.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
That's correct, eighty years old. But he had a sermon
that had an effect on you tell us about that.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
So he gave this speech in Saint Patrick's Cathedral in
nineteen ninety where he actually took the novel The Exorcist
and was reading it in church. So this was real
religion and kind of pop culture horror novels coming together
in a very striking and obvious way.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
And he gave this sermon.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
He warned about spiritual evil, and he said that two
exorcisms have been performed in the Diocese of New York.
It's very rare for a cardinal to publicly talk about that.
Later ed and Lorraine Warren from the Conjuring franchise that
they had been present for those exorcisms. And then he
talked about panic violence. He talked about Charles Manson and
(01:02):
the Manson family, and he talked about rock music, and
he talked about Ozzy Osbourne and said it was pornography
and sound and Ozzy Osbourne was so upset about this
homily that he wrote a public letter to the cardinal
and he said that The Exorcist is gruesomely realistic. It's
a way to imagine what real exorcisms that are really
going on actually look like. So our book, The Exorcist Effect,
(01:25):
we took these three topics from that sermon exorcism, you know,
satanic cults and rock music, and we kind of use
those to organize chapters in the.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Book Rosemary's Baby. Great movie, was it real?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Right?
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Rosemary's Baby. So nineteen sixty seven you get this novel
by Ira eleven. He said, you know, it's just a novel,
but was the bestseller. And they asked Alfred Hitchcock to
make a movie. And Alfred Hitchcock was raised Catholic, and
he said, absolutely not. I will do nice movies about
murders and psychos, but I'm not doing this movie right,
(02:05):
this is just blasphemous. So the movie rights go to
a fellow named William Castle. And William Castle was famous
for doing really kind of corny Mattine movies where he might,
you know, have a woman dress up as a nurse
and say this is so scary. You might have a
heart attack, so you have to sign a waiver to
watch it. And he saw the potential in Rosemary's Baby
and he said, I'm going to make this into a
(02:26):
great film and I'm going to be taken seriously in Hollywood.
But the studio said, we're not going to make this
with you directing it. You can produce it, but you've
got to have a serious director. And so they ended
up having Roman Polanski and he made that movie in
a really hyper real style. And so the movie, of course,
is about a conspiracy of witches and Satanists who are
plotting to impregnate this woman with the child of the devil.
(02:49):
But you know, they seem really nice, all the neighbors.
They seem very helpful and quirky. They don't seem like
really nasty, sinister people. And so people saw that movie
and they thought, wow, this could happen in life. You know,
someone that I trust, somebody close to me, could actually
be part of some kind of satanic conspiracy theory. So
it really affected people's imaginations.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Who's started that? MEA Ferald wasn't it?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Absolutely? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:15):
She was, in my opinion, great as Rosemary. And it
was the first horror movie to win an Oscar. The
woman who played a mini castevet won Best Actress in
a Supporting Role. So nineteen sixty eight was a really
big year for horror movies. Prior to that, horror movies
were seen as kind of shlock that you took your
date to the drive thru in. And Rosemary's Baby showed
(03:37):
this could actually be serious art that could win an Oscar.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Fifty eight years ago. Joseph, can you believe that?
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Yeah, it's bit, but you know what holds up, it's
still a good film.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
What is the Exorcist effect that you talk about in
your work?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Yeah, so everybody knows the excess is based on a
true story. But when that movie came out, people all
of America began saying, gosh, I think I'm possessed. I
think you know, I'm acting strangely. My dog's acting strangely.
My kids are doing odd things. Maybe it's a demon.
Maybe I need an exorcism. And so they went to
(04:16):
the churches and just like in the film, most priests
in nineteen seventy three said, I have no idea how
to do an actressism. It's not done anymore. So this
eventually created a revival of extorcism. And one of the
people that you could go to in the seventies if
you went an extricism was Ed and Lorraine Warren, And
so they were able to have a career because of
the film The Ectrescist, and now their adventures and cases
(04:39):
are the basis of the Conjuring franchise, which is a
two billion dollar franchise.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
That's billion with the B.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
There's also a fellow named Father Gabriela Mort who some
people may have heard of, but he said, because of
The Extorcist, I was able to revive extorcism in the
Catholic Church and he founded a group called the International
Association of Extorcists, and he was re portrayed by Russell
Crowe in a film called The Pope's Exorcist. So what
we have here is a cycle where real events inspire movies.
(05:07):
Movies inspire real events, and we call that cycle the
Exorcist Effects.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
That was a tremendous movie. Crow did a great job
there too.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
I love watching Russell Crowe. He just gets more and
more exciting to watch in some ways.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
What is it with all these horror movies, Joseph, And
how does that tie into some of the things of reality.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Yeah, horror is really interesting as a genre because, unlike
other genres, horror has to tell.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
You that it's true. Right.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
A rom com doesn't become a better rom com if
you tell people it's a true story. But horror has
to be to tell people it's true and if possible,
you know, to be like the Exorcists, to actually find
a real event that happened and try to portray it
dramatically on the screen.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
And you know, some people don't like horror.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Movies and they say, well, this is this is this
seems SADISTI why would you want to watch bad things
happen to people? But I think that for a lot
of people, the pleasure of a horror movie is intellectual.
You want to think about what's going on. And so
I think for horror movie fans they kind of think,
could demonic possession really happen? Could a conspiracy like in
Rosemary's Baby really exist? And so they're good to think with.
(06:18):
And I think that that's why Cardinal O'Connor wanted his
congregation to hear The Exorcist, because he said, this is
going to help you imagine something that could very well
really happen.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
When you teach these subjects in the university, what do
the students want to learn? Primarily? What are they interested in?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
Well, you know, on bad days, I think the students
want to just find the least painful way to get
a college credit that they can. But you know, the students,
once they get into it and they kind of see
some of the questions, you know, they really start to
become interested in what we know about the cases, so
the specific cases that things are based on, and I
(06:57):
encourage them to think of multiple possible abilities of what
could have happened with someone like a Ronald Hunkler. They
get interested in the text and understanding the cultures so
that they can interpret a historical texts. And of course
they're very interested in, you know, things like whether demons
are real or extorcism is real. And my advice on
(07:18):
that is, I tell them, you know, believe whatever you want.
I never want to tell you what to believe or
not believe in. But if you want to write a
term paper, try to stick to something you can prove
with evidence. And demons, while they may well exist, it's
hard to convince other people about them. So I encourage
them to kind of look at other directions for their
their writing and research projects.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Where do you get your books?
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Well, the Penguin Book of Actressism and the Penguin Book
of Cults are available at Barnes and Noble or Amazon
or anywhere you buy books. And the accissis to fact
is from Oxford University Press. You can get that from
their website or you can get that from Amazon.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Did the Catholic Church come out with any statements when
Rosemary's Baby came out?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Absolutely?
Speaker 4 (08:01):
The Catholic Church hated Rosemary's Baby, and William Castle knew
that they would and that they would condemn it and
that would make more people see the film. So that
the Catholic Church had a group for a long time
called the League of Decency, which created the so called
Hayes Code, which regulated what kinds of things that you
could show in a movie. And they gave Rosemary's Baby
(08:23):
a grade of C for condemned. And they said, you know,
on top of everything else, the blasphemy, it's actually a
good movie. And they said the fact that the movie
was well done technically makes it even worse because now
more people are going to see this kind of blasphemous story.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
So they did not like Rosemary's Baby one.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Good did it get panned in the press.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
It's interesting.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
At the time, yeah, the press, you know, was a
kind of skeptical of it, and they said, well, which
is aren't real, right?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Why would they show this? And they said, why do.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
The witches look like normal people? Why isn't this set
in Transylvania or a haunted, spooky castle or something like that.
But of course the critics were wrong, and lots of
people do believe in all kinds of conspiracy theories and
that there are Satanists and witches out there who are
you know, doing a bad things to people. And one
(09:23):
critic even said, you know, the witches seemed like a
far out California cult. And not long after they wrote
that review of Rosemary's Baby, of course, we had the
Manson murders, which showed that a far out California cult
could actually be pretty scary.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, that's true. Mia Farrell was twenty two when she
did the role in Rosemary's Baby. She's eighty years old now.
Did it skyrocket her career?
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (09:51):
I think that she Yeah, she was pretty much unknown,
I believe when Rosemary's Baby came out and suddenly she was,
you know, almost a household name.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
And of course she.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Was so kind of beautiful in that film and had
a kind of innocence, which is why they cast her.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
So I think that really put a big spotlight on her.
For sure.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Wasn't she married to Frank Sinatra for a little bit, Yes,
she was. Yeah, small world, My gosh. Satanists. Anton Leavay,
was he involved in any of this?
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Yeah, So Anton LaVey in nineteen sixty six in San
Francisco founds the Church of Satan. And so before that
there were rumors, you know, maybe there's really Satanists in
the world, and maybe there's not. But after nineteen sixty six,
everybody could point to Anton LeVay and say that guy
there is a Satanist.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
He admits it.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
He holds, you know, Satanic parties at his house in
San Francisco that he had painted black, and celebrities like
Sammy Davis Junior even would participate in this. And he
was also he loved movies. Would he would you know,
most of his life would he would watch movies in
his house in San Francisco.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
And he was also a bit of a fibbre about
his life.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
So in Rosemary's Baby, there is a scene where someone
in a devil costume comes and basically ravishes Rosemary, and
Anton Levy told everybody that was me, I was the
one in the devil costume, and we now know that
that's not true, that that was an actor named Clay Tanner.
He also told people that Roman Polanski hired him as
a consultant to do you know, Satanic rituals and things
(11:29):
like that, and in film that appears not to be
true either. However, he was invited to the premiere and
he did show up at the premiere of Rosemary's Baby
in a hearse, and that was another thing he liked
to do with drive around town in his hearse, so
he was at least present for the premiere.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Joseph, what does a demon mean to you?
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Well, I mean this depends on who you ask, right,
So in the Christian tradition, most Christians would say demons
are fallen angels.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Right that Lucifer.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
As kind of the the most beautiful of the angels,
rebelled against God and sought to replace him, and he
took a third of all the angels with him, and
they lost this war in heaven and became the demons right.
So if you believe that, then you know demons are
older than people, They're older than humanity, and presumably you
(12:20):
know still still angry about losing US war, angry that
God has put so much energy into the human beings
and love for human beings.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And what Christian.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Theologians have said for a long time is demons are
jealous of us, right, and their primary motivation is we
get to go to heaven, and that's the one place
where they were there once and they can never ever
go back.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at
one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam
dot com for more
Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast am on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
You're right about Cardinal John O'Connor, which I think he
passed away in two thousand.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Did he not.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
That's correct, eighty years old. But he had a sermon
that had an effect on you tell us about that.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
So he gave this speech in Saint Patrick's Cathedral in
nineteen ninety where he actually took the novel The Exorcist
and was reading it in church. So this was real
religion and kind of pop culture horror novels coming together
in a very striking and obvious way.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
And he gave this sermon.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
He warned about spiritual evil, and he said that two
exorcisms have been performed in the Diocese of New York.
It's very rare for a cardinal to publicly talk about that.
Later ed and Lorraine Warren from the Conjuring franchise that
they had been present for those exorcisms. And then he
talked about panic violence. He talked about Charles Manson and
(01:02):
the Manson family, and he talked about rock music, and
he talked about Ozzy Osbourne and said it was pornography
and sound and Ozzy Osbourne was so upset about this
homily that he wrote a public letter to the cardinal
and he said that The Exorcist is gruesomely realistic. It's
a way to imagine what real exorcisms that are really
going on actually look like. So our book, The Exorcist Effect,
(01:25):
we took these three topics from that sermon exorcism, you know,
satanic cults and rock music, and we kind of use
those to organize chapters in the.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Book Rosemary's Baby. Great movie, was it real?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Right?
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Rosemary's Baby. So nineteen sixty seven you get this novel
by Ira eleven. He said, you know, it's just a novel,
but was the bestseller. And they asked Alfred Hitchcock to
make a movie. And Alfred Hitchcock was raised Catholic, and
he said, absolutely not. I will do nice movies about
murders and psychos, but I'm not doing this movie right,
(02:05):
this is just blasphemous. So the movie rights go to
a fellow named William Castle. And William Castle was famous
for doing really kind of corny Mattine movies where he might,
you know, have a woman dress up as a nurse
and say this is so scary. You might have a
heart attack, so you have to sign a waiver to
watch it. And he saw the potential in Rosemary's Baby
and he said, I'm going to make this into a
(02:26):
great film and I'm going to be taken seriously in Hollywood.
But the studio said, we're not going to make this
with you directing it. You can produce it, but you've
got to have a serious director. And so they ended
up having Roman Polanski and he made that movie in
a really hyper real style. And so the movie, of course,
is about a conspiracy of witches and Satanists who are
plotting to impregnate this woman with the child of the devil.
(02:49):
But you know, they seem really nice, all the neighbors.
They seem very helpful and quirky. They don't seem like
really nasty, sinister people. And so people saw that movie
and they thought, wow, this could happen in life. You know,
someone that I trust, somebody close to me, could actually
be part of some kind of satanic conspiracy theory. So
it really affected people's imaginations.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Who's started that? MEA Ferald wasn't it?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Absolutely? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:15):
She was, in my opinion, great as Rosemary. And it
was the first horror movie to win an Oscar. The
woman who played a mini castevet won Best Actress in
a Supporting Role. So nineteen sixty eight was a really
big year for horror movies. Prior to that, horror movies
were seen as kind of shlock that you took your
date to the drive thru in. And Rosemary's Baby showed
(03:37):
this could actually be serious art that could win an Oscar.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Fifty eight years ago. Joseph, can you believe that?
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Yeah, it's bit, but you know what holds up, it's
still a good film.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
What is the Exorcist effect that you talk about in
your work?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Yeah, so everybody knows the excess is based on a
true story. But when that movie came out, people all
of America began saying, gosh, I think I'm possessed. I
think you know, I'm acting strangely. My dog's acting strangely.
My kids are doing odd things. Maybe it's a demon.
Maybe I need an exorcism. And so they went to
(04:16):
the churches and just like in the film, most priests
in nineteen seventy three said, I have no idea how
to do an actressism. It's not done anymore. So this
eventually created a revival of extorcism. And one of the
people that you could go to in the seventies if
you went an extricism was Ed and Lorraine Warren, And
so they were able to have a career because of
the film The Ectrescist, and now their adventures and cases
(04:39):
are the basis of the Conjuring franchise, which is a
two billion dollar franchise.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
That's billion with the B.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
There's also a fellow named Father Gabriela Mort who some
people may have heard of, but he said, because of
The Extorcist, I was able to revive extorcism in the
Catholic Church and he founded a group called the International
Association of Extorcists, and he was re portrayed by Russell
Crowe in a film called The Pope's Exorcist. So what
we have here is a cycle where real events inspire movies.
(05:07):
Movies inspire real events, and we call that cycle the
Exorcist Effects.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
That was a tremendous movie. Crow did a great job
there too.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
I love watching Russell Crowe. He just gets more and
more exciting to watch in some ways.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
What is it with all these horror movies, Joseph, And
how does that tie into some of the things of reality.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Yeah, horror is really interesting as a genre because, unlike
other genres, horror has to tell.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
You that it's true. Right.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
A rom com doesn't become a better rom com if
you tell people it's a true story. But horror has
to be to tell people it's true and if possible,
you know, to be like the Exorcists, to actually find
a real event that happened and try to portray it
dramatically on the screen.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
And you know, some people don't like horror.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Movies and they say, well, this is this is this
seems SADISTI why would you want to watch bad things
happen to people? But I think that for a lot
of people, the pleasure of a horror movie is intellectual.
You want to think about what's going on. And so
I think for horror movie fans they kind of think,
could demonic possession really happen? Could a conspiracy like in
Rosemary's Baby really exist? And so they're good to think with.
(06:18):
And I think that that's why Cardinal O'Connor wanted his
congregation to hear The Exorcist, because he said, this is
going to help you imagine something that could very well
really happen.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
When you teach these subjects in the university, what do
the students want to learn? Primarily? What are they interested in?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
Well, you know, on bad days, I think the students
want to just find the least painful way to get
a college credit that they can. But you know, the students,
once they get into it and they kind of see
some of the questions, you know, they really start to
become interested in what we know about the cases, so
the specific cases that things are based on, and I
(06:57):
encourage them to think of multiple possible abilities of what
could have happened with someone like a Ronald Hunkler. They
get interested in the text and understanding the cultures so
that they can interpret a historical texts. And of course
they're very interested in, you know, things like whether demons
are real or extorcism is real. And my advice on
(07:18):
that is, I tell them, you know, believe whatever you want.
I never want to tell you what to believe or
not believe in. But if you want to write a
term paper, try to stick to something you can prove
with evidence. And demons, while they may well exist, it's
hard to convince other people about them. So I encourage
them to kind of look at other directions for their
their writing and research projects.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Where do you get your books?
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Well, the Penguin Book of Actressism and the Penguin Book
of Cults are available at Barnes and Noble or Amazon
or anywhere you buy books. And the accissis to fact
is from Oxford University Press. You can get that from
their website or you can get that from Amazon.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Did the Catholic Church come out with any statements when
Rosemary's Baby came out?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Absolutely?
Speaker 4 (08:01):
The Catholic Church hated Rosemary's Baby, and William Castle knew
that they would and that they would condemn it and
that would make more people see the film. So that
the Catholic Church had a group for a long time
called the League of Decency, which created the so called
Hayes Code, which regulated what kinds of things that you
could show in a movie. And they gave Rosemary's Baby
(08:23):
a grade of C for condemned. And they said, you know,
on top of everything else, the blasphemy, it's actually a
good movie. And they said the fact that the movie
was well done technically makes it even worse because now
more people are going to see this kind of blasphemous story.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
So they did not like Rosemary's Baby one.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Good did it get panned in the press.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
It's interesting.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
At the time, yeah, the press, you know, was a
kind of skeptical of it, and they said, well, which
is aren't real, right?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Why would they show this? And they said, why do.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
The witches look like normal people? Why isn't this set
in Transylvania or a haunted, spooky castle or something like that.
But of course the critics were wrong, and lots of
people do believe in all kinds of conspiracy theories and
that there are Satanists and witches out there who are
you know, doing a bad things to people. And one
(09:23):
critic even said, you know, the witches seemed like a
far out California cult. And not long after they wrote
that review of Rosemary's Baby, of course, we had the
Manson murders, which showed that a far out California cult
could actually be pretty scary.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, that's true. Mia Farrell was twenty two when she
did the role in Rosemary's Baby. She's eighty years old now.
Did it skyrocket her career?
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (09:51):
I think that she Yeah, she was pretty much unknown,
I believe when Rosemary's Baby came out and suddenly she was,
you know, almost a household name.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
And of course she.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Was so kind of beautiful in that film and had
a kind of innocence, which is why they cast her.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
So I think that really put a big spotlight on her.
For sure.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Wasn't she married to Frank Sinatra for a little bit, Yes,
she was. Yeah, small world, My gosh. Satanists. Anton Leavay,
was he involved in any of this?
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Yeah, So Anton LaVey in nineteen sixty six in San
Francisco founds the Church of Satan. And so before that
there were rumors, you know, maybe there's really Satanists in
the world, and maybe there's not. But after nineteen sixty six,
everybody could point to Anton LeVay and say that guy
there is a Satanist.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
He admits it.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
He holds, you know, Satanic parties at his house in
San Francisco that he had painted black, and celebrities like
Sammy Davis Junior even would participate in this. And he
was also he loved movies. Would he would you know,
most of his life would he would watch movies in
his house in San Francisco.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
And he was also a bit of a fibbre about
his life.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
So in Rosemary's Baby, there is a scene where someone
in a devil costume comes and basically ravishes Rosemary, and
Anton Levy told everybody that was me, I was the
one in the devil costume, and we now know that
that's not true, that that was an actor named Clay Tanner.
He also told people that Roman Polanski hired him as
a consultant to do you know, Satanic rituals and things
(11:29):
like that, and in film that appears not to be
true either. However, he was invited to the premiere and
he did show up at the premiere of Rosemary's Baby
in a hearse, and that was another thing he liked
to do with drive around town in his hearse, so
he was at least present for the premiere.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Joseph, what does a demon mean to you?
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Well, I mean this depends on who you ask, right,
So in the Christian tradition, most Christians would say demons
are fallen angels.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Right that Lucifer.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
As kind of the the most beautiful of the angels,
rebelled against God and sought to replace him, and he
took a third of all the angels with him, and
they lost this war in heaven and became the demons right.
So if you believe that, then you know demons are
older than people, They're older than humanity, and presumably you
(12:20):
know still still angry about losing US war, angry that
God has put so much energy into the human beings
and love for human beings.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
And what Christian.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Theologians have said for a long time is demons are
jealous of us, right, and their primary motivation is we
get to go to heaven, and that's the one place
where they were there once and they can never ever
go back.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
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