January 3, 2025 • 19 mins
George Noory and author Micah Hanks explore his research into UFOs, his belief that there is intelligent life in the universe that has been visiting Earth, and recount some of the most famous UFO cases in history like the Betty and Barney Hill alien abduction story, the Tic Tac UFO sighting and the Lonnie Zamora UFO landing incident.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.
Michah Hanks back with us. Journalist, author, podcaster, co founder
and creative force behind The Debrief, which is a news
site that explores the latest in science and disruptive technology.
He's a longtime researcher, proponent of the scientific study of
UFOs and hosts his on weekly podcast called The Micah
(00:27):
Hanks Program. Michaeh Welcome back to the program.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
George Norri, Happy New Year. How are you?
Speaker 4 (00:33):
I'm great? How about yourself?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Doing really good? Always good to hear your voice then again,
of course hosting late night radio, guiding us to the
morning light every evening as you do, I hear it often.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So tomorrow we start our twenty third year. Micah, can
you believe that?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Unbelievable? But you know, time does fly. I kind of
like that Pink Floyd song you were.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Playing, so yeah, really it does.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
How did you get so interested in the study of UFO?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
You know, I think kind of like James Bond was
described by Ian Fleming. He's a really normal guy who
finds himself in really interesting situations. I've never seen a UFO,
but I'm fascinated with the stories that people tell about
them and George for years, like yourself. I mean, I
have received the most incredible stories from people, law enforcement,
(01:24):
military personnel, you, people in all walks of life who
have seen things in the skies and sometimes also in
our oceans and under other circumstances that just aren't easily explained.
And so I'm just very passionate about trying to understand.
Even if we never figure out entirely what it's all about,
I want to try and learn as much, collect as
much data, and try and really put some work behind
(01:44):
trying to understand what this all means.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Micah.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Back when I was a kid, my mother brought me
a book by the then New York Times science writer
Walter Sullivan called We Are Not Alone, and it was
based on his theory of life out there in the Union.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
I read that as a little kid, and I was talked.
I said, this is what I want to study. Bomb.
I love this stuff, and yah, you know you've got
the bug too.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I do. And it was very similar for me, you know,
when I was about five years old. Full disclosure, my
father had books like, for instance, UFO's Interplanetary Visitors by
Ray Fowler, just a fantastic researcher and you know, really
a boots on the ground kind of researcher too. When
reports would come in, he would get up there, he
would investigate. And that book also Ivan Sanderson's landmark book
(02:37):
on Abominable Snowman Legend Come to Life, and a few
others were books in my dad's collection. And I couldn't
even read by the time I was asking for those books,
and my parents said, hey, you know, if he's asking
for books, let's give him some. I don't think they
knew at that young age that they were going to
be setting the course for where I would go for
the rest of my life. But here we are, Mike.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
There are people who know you know your stand on
extraterrestrial life, But what about for people who don't know,
what do you think?
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Well, extraterrestrial life probably exists. We can't certainly say that
there's life out there on other worlds. But I mean,
I would just put it to you like this. If
you look at our oceans, you look at octopus, or
if you look at squid, if you look on land
in places like Australia, and you see the platypus, the
strange combination of all these characteristics in a single organism.
(03:25):
If you look at smaller organisms, you know, you look
at phytoplankton that exists in our oceans and that sometimes
can be carried up into the atmosphere. You look at
the tartar grades. They can make their way up into space,
and they can sometimes find their way into very unusual places,
and they look very alien. I would argue that there
is extreme diversity here on planet Earth. Some of the
(03:47):
organisms right here on our lovely little mudball planet Earth,
they look very alien. And I just find it extremely
hard to believe that with liquid methane oceans on moons
and circling planets in our own Solar system, with the
very promising indications right now getting from the James Webspace Telescope,
when we look at the atmospheres of exoplanets light years
(04:08):
from Earth, I find it almost impossible to think that
there isn't life out there. And indeed, if we look
at the question of intelligent life and where it may exist,
some of the UFO data is very compelling in terms
of that possibility. That possibility that life may not only
exist somewhere out there, but that it might have actually
made its way into our own cosmic backyard, maybe even
(04:30):
into our own atmosphere.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Before you came on, Mike, I had Mike Baron. We
were getting his reaction to these congressional hearings on the
UFOs UAPs as.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
They call them. What's your take on those things?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Well, the hearings have been really interesting. Most recently, of course,
we had a former counter intelligence officer, Louela Zondo participating
in those hearings. Also Rear Admiral Tim Galladett, who I've
met and spoken with, Mike Gold, former NASA official, and
then also a journal list Mike Schellenberger, very much like myself,
who is tracking these stories from whistleblowers and get a
(05:06):
ride up front. One thing I should say, George, you
know you again also a nightcap veteran and someone who's
had a long history with us. We had whistleblowers coming
forward for decades, decades saying that there is something going on,
something more than what the government is letting us know.
And some of those former officials during these most recent
hearings were saying that too. And although the congressional hearing
(05:28):
got a tremendous amount of attention. Another hearing followed that
almost immediately thereafter, with a new director of the All
Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, the official UFO hunting unit within
the Pentagon. Doctor John Kazlowski. The new director, testified before
members of the Senate and he told some incredible stories
(05:49):
about some what he called good UAP cases. So, as
far as what I think about this, not only do
we have former intelligence officials coming forward saying, look, there
is a there there, and I think there is more
going on and the public deserves to really know to
the extent what's happening, we also have career scientists and
intelligence officials currently still within government saying, there there, We're
(06:12):
tracking these phenomena. We don't know what all of them are,
but there is certainly something worth studying. I mean, and
that me alone should really indicate to the American people
and to people all around the world the UFO phenomenon,
once stigmatized, once ridiculed by the science community, it's something
that is being taken very seriously. It should be taken seriously.
(06:32):
Stigmas should be removed, and we should really seriously be
looking at this phenomenon that has been present and as
people like you and I know for decades, maybe much
longer than that too.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Why do you think they're doing these sharings to kind
of appease the public or is there something going on?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
As a journalist who follows this, George, I have to say,
I mean, it is interesting to see this because I
think back in the nineteen sixties there had been a
limited amount of congressional action taken with regard to sightings
waves that were occurring at that time, and of course
at that time there was also a formal government study
you and I know it very well, Project Bluebook, that
(07:09):
was the longest systematic study that looked at this phenomenon
by as far as I know any government, apart from
allegations of secret programs that have been made over the years.
But in terms of why they're doing it now, what
we really saw over the last few years, and this
all kind of starting in twenty seventeen, was renewed interest
after it was revealed that, first of all, there was
a Defense Intelligence Agency program that was looking at this.
(07:31):
That was a big shocker for people, and it was
equally shocking to see this reported in a paper of Record,
the New York Times, several in fact, the Washington Post,
Politico and others. Really, these kinds of developments are what
led me to founddebrief dot org, and that's where we
report on these issues frequently. But public scrutiny, people being interested,
(07:51):
people saying wait a minute, you told us you didn't
study this stuff, and now we're learning that you did.
That certainly got lawmakers interested, and there is a small
nexus of lawmakers that are still saying, hey, look, if
these people say that there is more going on here
than what the American people have been told, we need
to look at this. But the other side of this
(08:13):
that's so concerning to George is that some of those
lawmakers are also hearing from some of the alleged whistleblowers
that hey, guess what, there also may be secret programs,
special access programs the Congress isn't being informed about. Now,
how can they have oversight of these issues as elected
officials if they aren't being told about these programs. So again,
journalistically or in terms of lawmakers looking at this issue,
(08:35):
people want to know what we haven't been told.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Indeed, indeed, Mike Bearra thinks that Lewis el Azando is
a disinformation officer.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
What do you think of that?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Well, you know, that is a component that has always
been an issue when it comes to the UFO phenomenon.
There have been people who have worked in government and
for various reasons, they will come out and they will
make claims or they will stir the pot, and they
will make allegations that sometimes aren't true. And I think
what really people have to understand about this is that
(09:08):
a fundamental part of intelligence and collecting information involves counter intelligence,
which again is a quade, a rabbit hole we could
go down. I think.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Remember the early sixties abduction case of Barney and Betty.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
L Sure you do.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
It's one of the best. It still remains one of
the best. This subject's been going on for such a
long long time. Are we ever going to get the answer?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
I hope so. I wonder if in our lifetime will know.
You look at the Barney and Betty Hill case and
you would think that again, the story that they told
about meeting individuals seeing a craft that appear to be
pacing them not unlike what some of the descriptions provided
by military officers described in recent reports published by the
Allday Anomaly resolution officer Aero described if you're that couple saying,
(10:01):
you know, not only did we see a flying object,
we were taken aboard that flying object. We interacted with
the occupants on board that thing, and they even claimed
that there was some physical evidence. You would think that
something like that would settle the debate, right, and yet
maybe decades later, we're still talking about that case. The
thing that I think really has to be emphasized is
(10:22):
that some of history's best cases, people are still curious,
but they're also still skeptical. And what I always try
to is a journalist who covers this, George, I try
to emphasize to people, Look if the stories and the
history of upology doesn't do enough, or you go online,
go to Arrowaaro dot mill and read the reports that
the Pentagon is now publishing through that office. Read their reports.
(10:46):
Look at the characteristics that they describe about the UAP
as the military calls them, that are being studied. Look
at the resolution case studies where they say we can
explain some of these things, but look at the number
that aren't explained. Look at how they say the FAA
is now providing reports to them. Listen to this weekly
look at all the pilots who are saying that they've
encountered these objects. You know, I collect those reports from
(11:09):
pilots and from civilians, from law enforcement officers, and from
members of the military myself. And when you read all
of those reports and you see all of that data,
there would have to be there. There would have to
be some kind of fire for there to be so
much smoke. George.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
In nineteen seventy one, Micah I interviewed Barney and Betty
Hill's psychiatrist, doctor Benjamin Simon, and I asked him, I said,
doctor Simon, were they telling you the truth? He said,
under hypnosis, they were not lying. I don't know what
happened to them, but whatever happened to them, they believe
(11:45):
it to be true.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
And that's good enough for me. Now, that was pretty astounding.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Doctor Simon should, I think, be commended for the role
that he played in all that. And unfortunately a lot
of those recordings, some of them kind of unsettling. But
the recordings of Vettim Barney Hill under hypnosis and their
recollection of the events are still accessible online and you
can listen to those, and it's clear that there's a
lot of emotion that comes out. And you know, again
(12:13):
some would say, well, but you know, if it was
hypnosis and this wasn't waking memory, we should take that
with a grain of salt. We should be careful. I'll
also point out that, you know, again, n ICAP, the
civilian organization, the largest UFO investigative organization at that time,
they had actually interviewed the Hills before the hypnosis occurred,
and Barney Hill gave very very detailed descriptions not only
(12:37):
of the craft that he observed while standing in a
field outside his car looking through binoculars, but he also
described seeing the occupants on board that craft clearly through
the windows. He described their behavior, facial expressions, he could
see the manner of dress. You know, again, it was
extremely detailed information that was provided. And again all that
before the hypnosis that revealed the deeper level of the
(13:00):
encounter and what they claim to have experienced. But doctor
Simon again going on the record as a medical professional
and saying, listen, I don't know what it was that
happened to them. I can only tell you in my
professional opinion that these two were not lying in whatever
happened to them. They certainly believe that it was real.
You add to that the report and the information from
(13:21):
before the hypnosis, and again I see why, and I
maintained myself that it's an incredible case.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Of all the reports you have looked at, which ones
do you think are the most compelling?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I mean, I couldn't say ones. I would have to
say dozens, George, I mean there are so many. It
one of course, that has really come to public light
and that people hear about a lot these days, and
there are reasons why it is scrutinized, and also that
it continues to fascinate us. But it's this NIMTS incident
from back in two thousand and four where Navy pilots
(13:55):
piloting FA eighteen super Hornets with the USS Knimetz Carrier Group,
they were conducting these expirit these training operations out off
of the California coast and for several weeks actually using
the new phase to rate radar systems that had been
instituted at that time. They were detecting objects and they
first thought, well, you know, we're seeing a malfunction. It's
(14:18):
a new system. This shouldn't be happening. George. I've talked
with at least one of those radar operators sat there
and spoken with him in the room with him, Gary Voorhees,
and he said, it was such a situation for us
that we shut down the system, booted it back up,
trying to figure out what was happening. We're still detecting
these objects out there. So eventually they vector two pilots
(14:38):
and their weapons systems officers. They fly out there. I
have met and spoke into one of those two pilots,
Alex Dietrich, and then they get out there, they see
this little object. It's kill or tick tact shaped and
it's moving erratically over the ocean surface. And as Captain Dave,
or rather Commander Dave Fraber, goes in to take a
look as he's flying down to get closer to the object,
(14:58):
it turns toward him, ZiT by and disappears, and then
they're notified by the radar operators. We've got the thing
on radar again and it's at our cap point, which
is a location used for those training exercises that is
only discussed over encrypted channels. So how did this thing
know where to go? What was the object? And it
was of course filmed later that same day by another
(15:20):
weapon systems officer on board another Fa eighteen super Hornet
that went out was in the same training area. There's
a reason why that case is such a landmark. And
as the gentleman who filmed that object, Commander Chad Underwood. Now,
Underwood said, you know, the thing was jamming our radar
while we were trying to film it. In my opinion,
and this is how he characterized it. When it is
(15:41):
operating in controlled military airspace during military training operations and
it is actively trying to jam our radar, that is
what we would call an active war. Now, I don't
think that there's war intended by whoever or whatever was
operating that thing, but he characterizes that to emphasize this
is not the kind of thing that the military does
not take seriously. That's what the American people and so
(16:01):
many others around the world need to understand. Our military
is having ongoing encounters with objects that behave in that way,
and we do need to try to get to the
bottomble what these things are and what that means.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
In nineteen sixty four, a police officer by the name
of Lannie Zamora in Scoro, New Mexico, saw what he
thought was a car crash on the side of the road.
As he approached it, he realized, this isn't a car crash,
some kind of object and he saw two beans screwing
(16:32):
around that got in it and took off. That case
convinced Jay Allen Heinek that there's more to this than
he thought.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
What do you think of that one?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Well, I'm glad you asked about that jeorce. Did you
know I've been to where Lonnie Zamora saw that landed
craft and its occupants. I went there with David Marler,
who is an incredible researcher who actually also now has
one of the largest UFO collections in the United States,
the National UFO Historical Record Center, which I've been there.
(17:03):
I'm going to be going back there soon. But David
and I we jumped in his jeep and we went
out there to the site, and we stood on the
hill and we walked down into the desert and there
it is the landing site. What I think happened, I mean,
I couldn't know for certain, but I do know this
that you know, a respected law enforcement officer there in SoCoRo,
New Mexico, had actually been involved in a police chase.
(17:26):
There had been a vehicle he was chasing first, and
he sees out of the corner of his eyes something
going down, and he was concerned because there was a
T and T shack up on the other side of
the hill there. He had been worried about that. And
he goes up as the gravel's spinning. You know in
that road that Lonnie literally drove his police car up
is still there. I've been right there to it, and
so being able to see this and replay these events
(17:47):
in my mind was fascinating. But he's going up the hill,
gets to the top of the hill, he sees, like
you described, what he thought maybe was a car accident,
and he said, I thought there were a couple of
kids standing next to what I presume was the overturned car,
because I saw him, and they looked startled. Their body
language seemed to indicate they were startled by my presence.
So he starts to drive closer to try and get
over there and help, and suddenly this thing starts making noise,
(18:09):
flame is shooting out of the bottom of it. As
he says, it lifts off of the ground. And again
Lonnie didn't know what this object was. He described it
as being kind of egg shaped, and I would say
probably not unlike the description of the object that Commander
Dave Freber and Alex Dietrich described that oval egg or
tic tac shape. This object begins lifting off the ground.
It's making a tremendous amount of noise. Lonis the more
(18:30):
leaps to the ground, thinking it's going to explode, and
then suddenly the noise dies down. He looks over his
shoulder and the object is zipping off away toward the mountains.
I stood there and looked at those mountains and again
replaying those events in my mind, at the place where
it all happened. It's got to be one of history's
absolutely best encounters. And you can see why as the
man on the ground that the Air Force sent just
(18:50):
days later. Yeah, Jay Allen, heinez looked at that case.
He saw the scorch earth, you know, and the upturned
stones and the gravel, and the disturbance on the ground
where this thing he'd land that it had landing gear
that helped it come down. Clearly something happened there. Physical
trace evidence was left and no less than a law
enforcement officer was the witness who said he saw it.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at
one am Eastern and go to coast to coastam dot
com for more
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.
Michah Hanks back with us. Journalist, author, podcaster, co founder
and creative force behind The Debrief, which is a news
site that explores the latest in science and disruptive technology.
He's a longtime researcher, proponent of the scientific study of
UFOs and hosts his on weekly podcast called The Micah
(00:27):
Hanks Program. Michaeh Welcome back to the program.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
George Norri, Happy New Year. How are you?
Speaker 4 (00:33):
I'm great? How about yourself?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Doing really good? Always good to hear your voice then again,
of course hosting late night radio, guiding us to the
morning light every evening as you do, I hear it often.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So tomorrow we start our twenty third year. Micah, can
you believe that?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Unbelievable? But you know, time does fly. I kind of
like that Pink Floyd song you were.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Playing, so yeah, really it does.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
How did you get so interested in the study of UFO?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
You know, I think kind of like James Bond was
described by Ian Fleming. He's a really normal guy who
finds himself in really interesting situations. I've never seen a UFO,
but I'm fascinated with the stories that people tell about
them and George for years, like yourself. I mean, I
have received the most incredible stories from people, law enforcement,
(01:24):
military personnel, you, people in all walks of life who
have seen things in the skies and sometimes also in
our oceans and under other circumstances that just aren't easily explained.
And so I'm just very passionate about trying to understand.
Even if we never figure out entirely what it's all about,
I want to try and learn as much, collect as
much data, and try and really put some work behind
(01:44):
trying to understand what this all means.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Micah.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Back when I was a kid, my mother brought me
a book by the then New York Times science writer
Walter Sullivan called We Are Not Alone, and it was
based on his theory of life out there in the Union.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
I read that as a little kid, and I was talked.
I said, this is what I want to study. Bomb.
I love this stuff, and yah, you know you've got
the bug too.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I do. And it was very similar for me, you know,
when I was about five years old. Full disclosure, my
father had books like, for instance, UFO's Interplanetary Visitors by
Ray Fowler, just a fantastic researcher and you know, really
a boots on the ground kind of researcher too. When
reports would come in, he would get up there, he
would investigate. And that book also Ivan Sanderson's landmark book
(02:37):
on Abominable Snowman Legend Come to Life, and a few
others were books in my dad's collection. And I couldn't
even read by the time I was asking for those books,
and my parents said, hey, you know, if he's asking
for books, let's give him some. I don't think they
knew at that young age that they were going to
be setting the course for where I would go for
the rest of my life. But here we are, Mike.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
There are people who know you know your stand on
extraterrestrial life, But what about for people who don't know,
what do you think?
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Well, extraterrestrial life probably exists. We can't certainly say that
there's life out there on other worlds. But I mean,
I would just put it to you like this. If
you look at our oceans, you look at octopus, or
if you look at squid, if you look on land
in places like Australia, and you see the platypus, the
strange combination of all these characteristics in a single organism.
(03:25):
If you look at smaller organisms, you know, you look
at phytoplankton that exists in our oceans and that sometimes
can be carried up into the atmosphere. You look at
the tartar grades. They can make their way up into space,
and they can sometimes find their way into very unusual places,
and they look very alien. I would argue that there
is extreme diversity here on planet Earth. Some of the
(03:47):
organisms right here on our lovely little mudball planet Earth,
they look very alien. And I just find it extremely
hard to believe that with liquid methane oceans on moons
and circling planets in our own Solar system, with the
very promising indications right now getting from the James Webspace Telescope,
when we look at the atmospheres of exoplanets light years
(04:08):
from Earth, I find it almost impossible to think that
there isn't life out there. And indeed, if we look
at the question of intelligent life and where it may exist,
some of the UFO data is very compelling in terms
of that possibility. That possibility that life may not only
exist somewhere out there, but that it might have actually
made its way into our own cosmic backyard, maybe even
(04:30):
into our own atmosphere.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Before you came on, Mike, I had Mike Baron. We
were getting his reaction to these congressional hearings on the
UFOs UAPs as.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
They call them. What's your take on those things?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Well, the hearings have been really interesting. Most recently, of course,
we had a former counter intelligence officer, Louela Zondo participating
in those hearings. Also Rear Admiral Tim Galladett, who I've
met and spoken with, Mike Gold, former NASA official, and
then also a journal list Mike Schellenberger, very much like myself,
who is tracking these stories from whistleblowers and get a
(05:06):
ride up front. One thing I should say, George, you
know you again also a nightcap veteran and someone who's
had a long history with us. We had whistleblowers coming
forward for decades, decades saying that there is something going on,
something more than what the government is letting us know.
And some of those former officials during these most recent
hearings were saying that too. And although the congressional hearing
(05:28):
got a tremendous amount of attention. Another hearing followed that
almost immediately thereafter, with a new director of the All
Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, the official UFO hunting unit within
the Pentagon. Doctor John Kazlowski. The new director, testified before
members of the Senate and he told some incredible stories
(05:49):
about some what he called good UAP cases. So, as
far as what I think about this, not only do
we have former intelligence officials coming forward saying, look, there
is a there there, and I think there is more
going on and the public deserves to really know to
the extent what's happening, we also have career scientists and
intelligence officials currently still within government saying, there there, We're
(06:12):
tracking these phenomena. We don't know what all of them are,
but there is certainly something worth studying. I mean, and
that me alone should really indicate to the American people
and to people all around the world the UFO phenomenon,
once stigmatized, once ridiculed by the science community, it's something
that is being taken very seriously. It should be taken seriously.
(06:32):
Stigmas should be removed, and we should really seriously be
looking at this phenomenon that has been present and as
people like you and I know for decades, maybe much
longer than that too.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Why do you think they're doing these sharings to kind
of appease the public or is there something going on?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
As a journalist who follows this, George, I have to say,
I mean, it is interesting to see this because I
think back in the nineteen sixties there had been a
limited amount of congressional action taken with regard to sightings
waves that were occurring at that time, and of course
at that time there was also a formal government study
you and I know it very well, Project Bluebook, that
(07:09):
was the longest systematic study that looked at this phenomenon
by as far as I know any government, apart from
allegations of secret programs that have been made over the years.
But in terms of why they're doing it now, what
we really saw over the last few years, and this
all kind of starting in twenty seventeen, was renewed interest
after it was revealed that, first of all, there was
a Defense Intelligence Agency program that was looking at this.
(07:31):
That was a big shocker for people, and it was
equally shocking to see this reported in a paper of Record,
the New York Times, several in fact, the Washington Post,
Politico and others. Really, these kinds of developments are what
led me to founddebrief dot org, and that's where we
report on these issues frequently. But public scrutiny, people being interested,
(07:51):
people saying wait a minute, you told us you didn't
study this stuff, and now we're learning that you did.
That certainly got lawmakers interested, and there is a small
nexus of lawmakers that are still saying, hey, look, if
these people say that there is more going on here
than what the American people have been told, we need
to look at this. But the other side of this
(08:13):
that's so concerning to George is that some of those
lawmakers are also hearing from some of the alleged whistleblowers
that hey, guess what, there also may be secret programs,
special access programs the Congress isn't being informed about. Now,
how can they have oversight of these issues as elected
officials if they aren't being told about these programs. So again,
journalistically or in terms of lawmakers looking at this issue,
(08:35):
people want to know what we haven't been told.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Indeed, indeed, Mike Bearra thinks that Lewis el Azando is
a disinformation officer.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
What do you think of that?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Well, you know, that is a component that has always
been an issue when it comes to the UFO phenomenon.
There have been people who have worked in government and
for various reasons, they will come out and they will
make claims or they will stir the pot, and they
will make allegations that sometimes aren't true. And I think
what really people have to understand about this is that
(09:08):
a fundamental part of intelligence and collecting information involves counter intelligence,
which again is a quade, a rabbit hole we could
go down. I think.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Remember the early sixties abduction case of Barney and Betty.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
L Sure you do.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
It's one of the best. It still remains one of
the best. This subject's been going on for such a
long long time. Are we ever going to get the answer?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
I hope so. I wonder if in our lifetime will know.
You look at the Barney and Betty Hill case and
you would think that again, the story that they told
about meeting individuals seeing a craft that appear to be
pacing them not unlike what some of the descriptions provided
by military officers described in recent reports published by the
Allday Anomaly resolution officer Aero described if you're that couple saying,
(10:01):
you know, not only did we see a flying object,
we were taken aboard that flying object. We interacted with
the occupants on board that thing, and they even claimed
that there was some physical evidence. You would think that
something like that would settle the debate, right, and yet
maybe decades later, we're still talking about that case. The
thing that I think really has to be emphasized is
(10:22):
that some of history's best cases, people are still curious,
but they're also still skeptical. And what I always try
to is a journalist who covers this, George, I try
to emphasize to people, Look if the stories and the
history of upology doesn't do enough, or you go online,
go to Arrowaaro dot mill and read the reports that
the Pentagon is now publishing through that office. Read their reports.
(10:46):
Look at the characteristics that they describe about the UAP
as the military calls them, that are being studied. Look
at the resolution case studies where they say we can
explain some of these things, but look at the number
that aren't explained. Look at how they say the FAA
is now providing reports to them. Listen to this weekly
look at all the pilots who are saying that they've
encountered these objects. You know, I collect those reports from
(11:09):
pilots and from civilians, from law enforcement officers, and from
members of the military myself. And when you read all
of those reports and you see all of that data,
there would have to be there. There would have to
be some kind of fire for there to be so
much smoke. George.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
In nineteen seventy one, Micah I interviewed Barney and Betty
Hill's psychiatrist, doctor Benjamin Simon, and I asked him, I said,
doctor Simon, were they telling you the truth? He said,
under hypnosis, they were not lying. I don't know what
happened to them, but whatever happened to them, they believe
(11:45):
it to be true.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
And that's good enough for me. Now, that was pretty astounding.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Doctor Simon should, I think, be commended for the role
that he played in all that. And unfortunately a lot
of those recordings, some of them kind of unsettling. But
the recordings of Vettim Barney Hill under hypnosis and their
recollection of the events are still accessible online and you
can listen to those, and it's clear that there's a
lot of emotion that comes out. And you know, again
(12:13):
some would say, well, but you know, if it was
hypnosis and this wasn't waking memory, we should take that
with a grain of salt. We should be careful. I'll
also point out that, you know, again, n ICAP, the
civilian organization, the largest UFO investigative organization at that time,
they had actually interviewed the Hills before the hypnosis occurred,
and Barney Hill gave very very detailed descriptions not only
(12:37):
of the craft that he observed while standing in a
field outside his car looking through binoculars, but he also
described seeing the occupants on board that craft clearly through
the windows. He described their behavior, facial expressions, he could
see the manner of dress. You know, again, it was
extremely detailed information that was provided. And again all that
before the hypnosis that revealed the deeper level of the
(13:00):
encounter and what they claim to have experienced. But doctor
Simon again going on the record as a medical professional
and saying, listen, I don't know what it was that
happened to them. I can only tell you in my
professional opinion that these two were not lying in whatever
happened to them. They certainly believe that it was real.
You add to that the report and the information from
(13:21):
before the hypnosis, and again I see why, and I
maintained myself that it's an incredible case.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Of all the reports you have looked at, which ones
do you think are the most compelling?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I mean, I couldn't say ones. I would have to
say dozens, George, I mean there are so many. It
one of course, that has really come to public light
and that people hear about a lot these days, and
there are reasons why it is scrutinized, and also that
it continues to fascinate us. But it's this NIMTS incident
from back in two thousand and four where Navy pilots
(13:55):
piloting FA eighteen super Hornets with the USS Knimetz Carrier Group,
they were conducting these expirit these training operations out off
of the California coast and for several weeks actually using
the new phase to rate radar systems that had been
instituted at that time. They were detecting objects and they
first thought, well, you know, we're seeing a malfunction. It's
(14:18):
a new system. This shouldn't be happening. George. I've talked
with at least one of those radar operators sat there
and spoken with him in the room with him, Gary Voorhees,
and he said, it was such a situation for us
that we shut down the system, booted it back up,
trying to figure out what was happening. We're still detecting
these objects out there. So eventually they vector two pilots
(14:38):
and their weapons systems officers. They fly out there. I
have met and spoke into one of those two pilots,
Alex Dietrich, and then they get out there, they see
this little object. It's kill or tick tact shaped and
it's moving erratically over the ocean surface. And as Captain Dave,
or rather Commander Dave Fraber, goes in to take a
look as he's flying down to get closer to the object,
(14:58):
it turns toward him, ZiT by and disappears, and then
they're notified by the radar operators. We've got the thing
on radar again and it's at our cap point, which
is a location used for those training exercises that is
only discussed over encrypted channels. So how did this thing
know where to go? What was the object? And it
was of course filmed later that same day by another
(15:20):
weapon systems officer on board another Fa eighteen super Hornet
that went out was in the same training area. There's
a reason why that case is such a landmark. And
as the gentleman who filmed that object, Commander Chad Underwood. Now,
Underwood said, you know, the thing was jamming our radar
while we were trying to film it. In my opinion,
and this is how he characterized it. When it is
(15:41):
operating in controlled military airspace during military training operations and
it is actively trying to jam our radar, that is
what we would call an active war. Now, I don't
think that there's war intended by whoever or whatever was
operating that thing, but he characterizes that to emphasize this
is not the kind of thing that the military does
not take seriously. That's what the American people and so
(16:01):
many others around the world need to understand. Our military
is having ongoing encounters with objects that behave in that way,
and we do need to try to get to the
bottomble what these things are and what that means.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
In nineteen sixty four, a police officer by the name
of Lannie Zamora in Scoro, New Mexico, saw what he
thought was a car crash on the side of the road.
As he approached it, he realized, this isn't a car crash,
some kind of object and he saw two beans screwing
(16:32):
around that got in it and took off. That case
convinced Jay Allen Heinek that there's more to this than
he thought.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
What do you think of that one?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Well, I'm glad you asked about that jeorce. Did you
know I've been to where Lonnie Zamora saw that landed
craft and its occupants. I went there with David Marler,
who is an incredible researcher who actually also now has
one of the largest UFO collections in the United States,
the National UFO Historical Record Center, which I've been there.
(17:03):
I'm going to be going back there soon. But David
and I we jumped in his jeep and we went
out there to the site, and we stood on the
hill and we walked down into the desert and there
it is the landing site. What I think happened, I mean,
I couldn't know for certain, but I do know this
that you know, a respected law enforcement officer there in SoCoRo,
New Mexico, had actually been involved in a police chase.
(17:26):
There had been a vehicle he was chasing first, and
he sees out of the corner of his eyes something
going down, and he was concerned because there was a
T and T shack up on the other side of
the hill there. He had been worried about that. And
he goes up as the gravel's spinning. You know in
that road that Lonnie literally drove his police car up
is still there. I've been right there to it, and
so being able to see this and replay these events
(17:47):
in my mind was fascinating. But he's going up the hill,
gets to the top of the hill, he sees, like
you described, what he thought maybe was a car accident,
and he said, I thought there were a couple of
kids standing next to what I presume was the overturned car,
because I saw him, and they looked startled. Their body
language seemed to indicate they were startled by my presence.
So he starts to drive closer to try and get
over there and help, and suddenly this thing starts making noise,
(18:09):
flame is shooting out of the bottom of it. As
he says, it lifts off of the ground. And again
Lonnie didn't know what this object was. He described it
as being kind of egg shaped, and I would say
probably not unlike the description of the object that Commander
Dave Freber and Alex Dietrich described that oval egg or
tic tac shape. This object begins lifting off the ground.
It's making a tremendous amount of noise. Lonis the more
(18:30):
leaps to the ground, thinking it's going to explode, and
then suddenly the noise dies down. He looks over his
shoulder and the object is zipping off away toward the mountains.
I stood there and looked at those mountains and again
replaying those events in my mind, at the place where
it all happened. It's got to be one of history's
absolutely best encounters. And you can see why as the
man on the ground that the Air Force sent just
(18:50):
days later. Yeah, Jay Allen, heinez looked at that case.
He saw the scorch earth, you know, and the upturned
stones and the gravel, and the disturbance on the ground
where this thing he'd land that it had landing gear
that helped it come down. Clearly something happened there. Physical
trace evidence was left and no less than a law
enforcement officer was the witness who said he saw it.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at
one am Eastern and go to coast to coastam dot
com for more
The Best of Coast to Coast AM News
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George Noory
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