October 27, 2025 • 17 mins
Guest Host George Knapp and UFO Researcher Richard Geldreich discuss UFO history he's found via rare newspaper articles including information on UFO incidents at nuclear missile sites, Roswell, NM and possible Men in Black incidents.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Richard. As you said at the beginning of our conversation,
you are a bit of a debunker in the tech world.
That was part of your job. You've certainly done some
of that and UFO world as well. An example is
incidents at nuclear missile sites, and of course you know
there's been some pretty highly publicized events. I recall Washington
Post even published an article or two about the Northern
(00:27):
Tier cases. They're called five different nuclear bases that were
visited by UFOs, one right after the other in the seventies.
And I guess Tim Phillips, former HANCHO at Arrow, had
come out with a statement regarding at least one of
those instances where he says Arrow never found any evidence
to confirm these things. You found something to the contrary.
(00:49):
Can you tell us what you found?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Yeah? Sure, okay. So I just want to emphasize that
it's actually so easy to find these reports, like high
school student writing report. You know, could could find them trivially.
For example, July sixth, nineteen fifty two, just a few
days where DC's overflowing pilot sea flying saucer over Hanford
Atomic Plant. That was wild the report of there were
(01:12):
four veteran pilots, by the way, and there's there's actually
many variants of that that's easily found. Seattle, Washington, July fifth, nineteen.
This is July fifth, nineteen forty seven. A quote a startling,
startling statements of a definite relationship between atomic energy and
(01:32):
quote flying dis focused attention today on the big Hanford
Atomic Plant in south central Washington. Bulk of the flying
dis reports have generated in a wide circle through Idaho, Washington,
and Oregon surrounding the Hanford Works. So that's all the
way back to forty seven. You know, we could just
keep going on and on and on. Okay, July six,
(01:53):
forty seven, the commanding officer of the Hanford Engineering Works
said the saucers are not coming from the atomic plant there,
but he did talk about that that they were having
saucer settings, and other articles talk about jets being sent
up Sanda Base. And keep in mind that a lot
of some of these, I wouldn't say a lot some
of these articles are local people reporting them to their
(02:16):
local newspaper editors. Whatever. We have one here in July
twenty fifth, nineteen fifty two Alberquerque Journal, and it said
it's this is it sounds like a couple And they
spotted a fast, a fast moving, a fast turning UAP
(02:37):
over the area of San Dia Base, which is one
of the most critical facilities in the US atomic weapons
program in the forties and fifties. It traveled at tremendous
speed up and like turned on the dime essentially. And
they also heard a sound like a shotgun go off
when it happened, and they reported that. And I could
just go on and on and on, George like a flyer. Yeah,
(03:00):
it's just you know, these reports were reported to the CIA,
which was the predecessor of the FAA. So there's you know,
somewhere deep in the archives, there's a paper trail. I
even have a report. This isn't rare, this is super rare.
So right before Japan was attacked in mid July forty five,
(03:21):
and this is what I found in nikap's database. UFO
citing over Hanford Nuclear reactor jets were sent up. There
were six f jets with the ceiling of thirty seven
k feet. They tried to reach it, they couldn't. It
hovered over the Hanford nuclear reactor. And by the way,
that hovering that that's reported quite a bit in these articles.
(03:42):
Whatever was going on, these things would tend to sit
around and you know it.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Can sound like an airplane.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Even blue book files on the government's
own you know, National Chimes website, I have found the
most amazing Actually, another another excuser found some one amazing
report on there where hundreds of personnel at one you
know installation. We're watching blinking UAPs. You know it is
(04:10):
in forty nine. Here it is. They used artillery observation
and plotting methods to rule out stars and planes. This
is over Killeen Base, a nuclear weapons facility, over several
nights in forty nine, over one hundred men in officers
and that, by the way, these are ant official, unclassified
US government files, so nobody can argue this. This These
(04:30):
are real files. And in Georgie, I could just go
on and on and on and on. It's it's really bottomless.
So for someone to claim in public in twenty twenty five,
there's no evidence of this, it's just ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
You run into Project Twinkle, they were seeing these green
fireballs over Los Alamos, over San Dia over White sands.
They started a study, and it seemed like wherever they'd
put cameras to kind of capture these things or radar sites,
they go somewhere.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Else, uh, in my opinion, so that it went dark
it when classified. For example, we know they were putting
cameras all over the country. You know, they bought two
hundred plus cameras. They said in one article, this is
the United States Air Force and they put them over
seventy seven installations. Where did the photos go? In the sixties,
(05:17):
the Air Force guys, the ex Air Force guys said
that they had tons and tons of photos and motion
picture evidence. Where did it go?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Right?
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Was it burned? Was it destroyed? Do they have in
some area fifty one art cove? I have no idea,
but they it's a hell of a lot of cameras,
you know, and you don't send up planes with cameras
unless there's something going on, right, It's not just all
balloons and swamp gas. So yeah, going back to Colonel
Robert S. Allen, he wrote, I want to emphasize this
(05:46):
is that his articles talking about the situation were so
detailed I just had to put them in the public
like so in one of his articles, it's a few
months after DC's overflown on September twenty six, fifty two.
He has a list of the locations of the most
important of these sightings. In New Mexico. He reported Los
(06:08):
Alamos and White Sands Atomic Plant and testing grounds, Albuquerque
and the Holloman, Kirkland, and Walker air bases, and he
goes on and on and on. This is an enormous list,
and I want to emphasize like, as a researcher in
fifty two, very few my cap didn't exist at the time.
One of the major groups. You just had local groups.
He has this huge list all over the country, from
(06:31):
you know, Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio to
South Dakota to Michigan, Massachusetts, Nebraska, North Carolina, Tennessee, California's
going on. Only someone who was really, really an expert
at the time in late fifty two could have composed this.
And he reported that there was a massive United States
Air Force report that they were thinking about releasing it,
(06:55):
like I mentioned earlier on in the show, and they
changed their mind, so we did have we do I
was a summer of the report, right, and he reported
in there that Russia. I'm quoting now, Russia's profoundly mystified
and worried about flying saucers and strongly suspects they're a
new US weapon, which is interesting. Yeah. Yeah, And there's
there is another new finding I want to point out there,
(07:16):
and I believe no one's talked about, and that is
the ground Observer corpse in July fifty two. This is
a huge to me, this is a huge finding. So
what I found, what I kept stumbling on in newspapers
searching for UFO reports in fifty two July specifically, was
Ground Observer Corps Groundserver GOC. It was basically this huge
organized effort official across the entire country. We had hundreds
(07:41):
of observation posts. It spiked up to eight hundred thousand
to one million individuals depending on the source you get
it from. It was huge. And they went on twenty
four hour, twenty four to seven alert in early July
in this report of all over newspapers, and it's even
in the Truman Library, Like President Truman made a state
about this in December, and and I just posted Truman
(08:03):
statement on my ex account and Truman said that there,
you know, there are low flying craft that can't be
seen on radar. Well, in July fifty two, that's why
we had to go on twenty four hour alert. Well,
wait a second, what Soviet aircraft in July ninety fifty
two could fly all the way from the Soviet Union,
then go low and then dodge every single radar in
(08:23):
between the and Soviet It doesn't make any sense, George,
It makes no sense. It gets more interesting somehow they
went on twenty four to seven alert before DC was overflown,
so they had a heads up. George. It makes it's
a fascinating The more I dig, the more I'm finding
that what we know of UFO history and actually you know,
just United States history, is it's just a narrative. Like
(08:44):
if you go to the primary sources, it's very different.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
You ever look for or find something about men in
black MIBs?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yes, yes, I found a handful. Well, the first thing
I found is an official US government document and and
this was actually published in a book in the early
is a really important book called Clear Intent. And you
know this is you might be familiar with this, your lis,
But I find this fascinating. I have an exit. I
think I have a perhaps an explanation. March first, nineteen
(09:12):
sixty seven, Air Force Assistant Vice Chief says, Hey, these
mysterious individuals are showing up and they are personating our offices,
and they were taking photos and they're telling people they're
from Nora d and whatever. And he wanted, you know,
a FO see the Air Force Office of Special Investigations
to investigate it. And people, you know, they hear this
and they think, oh, it must be some paranormal event, right,
(09:34):
like some spooky you know, you know, maybe an alien
showed up and took the photo. Actually I don't, I
don't think so this was probably Listen if you trace
this in the I legal The legal framework was established
literally the day after Roswell it started to go into place.
July ninth, nineteen forty seven, they debunked Roswell with the
balloons just by newspaper articles and had events all over
(09:57):
the country about weather ballions. Later July ninth, nineteen forty seven,
the Senate votes on the National Security Act of nineteen
forty seven. So it's clear that if you can think
about this situation, think about it. I think about the
situation like this storie. There seems to be some sort
of covert force either here or close by, I don't
I don't know where, and they can fly over any
(10:19):
time they want, and they can cause hysteria and panic
in the military air force, you know, or eat operators
and civilians. Right, So it would make absolute perfect sense
for them to have agencies established to manage the situation
and ongoing emergency essentially. And so I have no doubt
whatsoever they were sending around people. You know, people would report, oh,
(10:40):
I have a photo, and then they would send somebody
to get the photos. You know, it needed to gather
the intelligence essentially. So I have that. I don't have
a lot. I hate to disappoint you, George, I don't
have a whole lot of m IB reportslable. I absolutely
love them.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, I imagine it was very weird for somebody to
report it anywhere. What would you do? I mean, you know,
who do you tell?
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah or something? Oh, I was on the break, I
was searching. I was like, hey, what can I find?
And NATO they were impersonating NATO, you know, They're like,
I'm from NATO and I want this right, So it
might be possible. I'm going to poke around over the
next few weeks and see if I can find anything.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
You mentioned clear intent, and I have to tell you
that is the one book. I mean, there were several
I wrote back in that period and when it was
cramming for it, but that is the one book that
got me hooked on it as a reporter because this
is a paper trail. These are government documents that these guys,
those authors dug up and various organizations and lawyers had
forced out of the government. And that made me think
(11:40):
this is doable. This is something that a reporter can
follow because it is based on government info, government file.
So it was it was a very important book in
my own development. I think it's reissued under a different title,
but it was a perfect piece of work.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah, in the newspaper, So there was a lot of
newspaper coverage from the individuals that I think it was
the Citizenens Citizens against UFO Secrecy c a US. Anyway,
they had good press relations and they kept just releasing
things to the press as they found it right, and
the information that appeared in newspapers in the late seventies
(12:16):
and early eighties about the UFO cover up was amazing,
Like CIA, you know, they're talking about the CIA interest
in UFOs and how the CIA in the NSA whatever,
we're keeping all the docs and not releasing them. And
you know, in one case in the early eighties, they
only were allowed I think the judge was only allowed
to look at look at it under you know, it
(12:36):
was like camera right, yeah, exactly, it's cleared. Like in
the olden days. They used to just pretend this didn't
exist at all, like when I was growing up eighties,
you know, eighties and nineties, and you know, and clearly
at this point, at this point, any school student could
wait in the newspapers dot com or go to the
California newspaper reposits where just free, and just start searching,
(12:57):
and within a few hours now the narratives are going
to blow up. You're going to see that. You know,
we had massive waves of UAP over the United States
in forty seven, fifty two, sixty six, sixty seven, and
then in between and of course to the modern era,
and then in between you know, thousands, literally thousands and
thousands of UFO sightings reported by local people to their
(13:20):
local newspapers.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
You had an interesting piece that involves Carl Sagan making
a startling admission. A couple of days ago. Do you
recall the details?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yes, yes, So in sixty eight there was a hearing.
It was called the rawsh Hearing, and it was US
Congressional hearing on UFOs formally titled the Symposium on Unidentified
Flying Objects. So I found this through laborious keyword searching.
It took days and days to find this, you know,
(13:51):
I somehow stumbled on it. And so doctor Carl Sagan
is testifying. It was also Heinech there, Menzel and some
other you know, I think mc donald was there as well.
Since sixty eight. This is right before the Common Report
lands and then right before the Air Force Blue Book
project goes under. And so Sagan says this, he says,
(14:12):
I'm going to quote him. The key quote is this quote. Apparently,
what is now happening is that the Air Force surveillance
radar is throwing away the data that is of relevance
for this inquiry. In other words, if it sees something
that is not on a ballistic trajectory we're not in orbit,
it ignores it, it throws it in the garbage. Well,
that garbage is just the area of our interests. So
(14:34):
if some method could be devised by the Air Force
to save the output that they are throwing away from
these space surveillance radars. It might be the least expensive
way to significantly improve our information about these phenomena unquote.
That is a fascinating That is an absolutely fascinating revelation.
That's a revelation. Wait a second, there's no way in
nineteen sixty eight we're going to throw away In my opinion,
(14:55):
there's no way in hell we're gonna throw away anything
like we were overflown in waves forty seven, nineteen fifty,
nineteen fifty two, nineteen sixty six. So there's no way
we're going to go, Oh, we're just going to throw
away anything's moving too fast. That's that's to me. I think, what,
in my opinion, what Sagan? This is the I guess
(15:16):
the extent of what Sagan knew. However, it turns out
Sagan had had a couple of security clearances through NASA
and another another organization, So he had a very high
security clearance through Project A one one nine. And so
the question now historically is what was he allowed to say?
(15:36):
Were they really throwing the data away? I don't think so.
I think it was just being scrolled away to another compartment,
is my opinion, it.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Was very Sagan was much more open minded about the
topic earlier. You know, he was interested clearly, and somewhere
along the line he changed on a dime and went
the other way, and you know, you see a book
like Contact, which became a really bause the movie. Yep,
he certainly seemed to have a broader ideas than what
he expressed during his career.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, he worked on nuclear weapons related stuff actually, so
that would be the highest of highest clearances. So I
hate to say this because I'm a big fan of
Sagan's work. Of course watched it, you know, as a child,
I read his books and stuff. Unfortunately, we have a
kind of a Donald Menzel light situation here, in my opinion,
(16:29):
where we can't really be sure anything any work that
any of Sagans work that intersects with the UAP problem.
We have to go and question it. We're going to go, okay,
let's just you know, quarantine this because he had a clearance.
And that's actually how I work in general with this
research is if we know somebody has a clearance or
likely had a clearance, well it's not their fault.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
You know.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
They have to sometimes not say things because you know,
tell a friend telling enemy. As Jim's Semivan XCA officer
would say. He has said in the.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Past, listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight
at one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to
coastam dot com for more
Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Richard. As you said at the beginning of our conversation,
you are a bit of a debunker in the tech world.
That was part of your job. You've certainly done some
of that and UFO world as well. An example is
incidents at nuclear missile sites, and of course you know
there's been some pretty highly publicized events. I recall Washington
Post even published an article or two about the Northern
(00:27):
Tier cases. They're called five different nuclear bases that were
visited by UFOs, one right after the other in the seventies.
And I guess Tim Phillips, former HANCHO at Arrow, had
come out with a statement regarding at least one of
those instances where he says Arrow never found any evidence
to confirm these things. You found something to the contrary.
(00:49):
Can you tell us what you found?
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Yeah? Sure, okay. So I just want to emphasize that
it's actually so easy to find these reports, like high
school student writing report. You know, could could find them trivially.
For example, July sixth, nineteen fifty two, just a few
days where DC's overflowing pilot sea flying saucer over Hanford
Atomic Plant. That was wild the report of there were
(01:12):
four veteran pilots, by the way, and there's there's actually
many variants of that that's easily found. Seattle, Washington, July fifth, nineteen.
This is July fifth, nineteen forty seven. A quote a startling,
startling statements of a definite relationship between atomic energy and
(01:32):
quote flying dis focused attention today on the big Hanford
Atomic Plant in south central Washington. Bulk of the flying
dis reports have generated in a wide circle through Idaho, Washington,
and Oregon surrounding the Hanford Works. So that's all the
way back to forty seven. You know, we could just
keep going on and on and on. Okay, July six,
(01:53):
forty seven, the commanding officer of the Hanford Engineering Works
said the saucers are not coming from the atomic plant there,
but he did talk about that that they were having
saucer settings, and other articles talk about jets being sent
up Sanda Base. And keep in mind that a lot
of some of these, I wouldn't say a lot some
of these articles are local people reporting them to their
(02:16):
local newspaper editors. Whatever. We have one here in July
twenty fifth, nineteen fifty two Alberquerque Journal, and it said
it's this is it sounds like a couple And they
spotted a fast, a fast moving, a fast turning UAP
(02:37):
over the area of San Dia Base, which is one
of the most critical facilities in the US atomic weapons
program in the forties and fifties. It traveled at tremendous
speed up and like turned on the dime essentially. And
they also heard a sound like a shotgun go off
when it happened, and they reported that. And I could
just go on and on and on, George like a flyer. Yeah,
(03:00):
it's just you know, these reports were reported to the CIA,
which was the predecessor of the FAA. So there's you know,
somewhere deep in the archives, there's a paper trail. I
even have a report. This isn't rare, this is super rare.
So right before Japan was attacked in mid July forty five,
(03:21):
and this is what I found in nikap's database. UFO
citing over Hanford Nuclear reactor jets were sent up. There
were six f jets with the ceiling of thirty seven
k feet. They tried to reach it, they couldn't. It
hovered over the Hanford nuclear reactor. And by the way,
that hovering that that's reported quite a bit in these articles.
(03:42):
Whatever was going on, these things would tend to sit
around and you know it.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Can sound like an airplane.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Even blue book files on the government's
own you know, National Chimes website, I have found the
most amazing Actually, another another excuser found some one amazing
report on there where hundreds of personnel at one you
know installation. We're watching blinking UAPs. You know it is
(04:10):
in forty nine. Here it is. They used artillery observation
and plotting methods to rule out stars and planes. This
is over Killeen Base, a nuclear weapons facility, over several
nights in forty nine, over one hundred men in officers
and that, by the way, these are ant official, unclassified
US government files, so nobody can argue this. This These
(04:30):
are real files. And in Georgie, I could just go
on and on and on and on. It's it's really bottomless.
So for someone to claim in public in twenty twenty five,
there's no evidence of this, it's just ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
You run into Project Twinkle, they were seeing these green
fireballs over Los Alamos, over San Dia over White sands.
They started a study, and it seemed like wherever they'd
put cameras to kind of capture these things or radar sites,
they go somewhere.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Else, uh, in my opinion, so that it went dark
it when classified. For example, we know they were putting
cameras all over the country. You know, they bought two
hundred plus cameras. They said in one article, this is
the United States Air Force and they put them over
seventy seven installations. Where did the photos go? In the sixties,
(05:17):
the Air Force guys, the ex Air Force guys said
that they had tons and tons of photos and motion
picture evidence. Where did it go?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Right?
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Was it burned? Was it destroyed? Do they have in
some area fifty one art cove? I have no idea,
but they it's a hell of a lot of cameras,
you know, and you don't send up planes with cameras
unless there's something going on, right, It's not just all
balloons and swamp gas. So yeah, going back to Colonel
Robert S. Allen, he wrote, I want to emphasize this
(05:46):
is that his articles talking about the situation were so
detailed I just had to put them in the public
like so in one of his articles, it's a few
months after DC's overflown on September twenty six, fifty two.
He has a list of the locations of the most
important of these sightings. In New Mexico. He reported Los
(06:08):
Alamos and White Sands Atomic Plant and testing grounds, Albuquerque
and the Holloman, Kirkland, and Walker air bases, and he
goes on and on and on. This is an enormous list,
and I want to emphasize like, as a researcher in
fifty two, very few my cap didn't exist at the time.
One of the major groups. You just had local groups.
He has this huge list all over the country, from
(06:31):
you know, Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio to
South Dakota to Michigan, Massachusetts, Nebraska, North Carolina, Tennessee, California's
going on. Only someone who was really, really an expert
at the time in late fifty two could have composed this.
And he reported that there was a massive United States
Air Force report that they were thinking about releasing it,
(06:55):
like I mentioned earlier on in the show, and they
changed their mind, so we did have we do I
was a summer of the report, right, and he reported
in there that Russia. I'm quoting now, Russia's profoundly mystified
and worried about flying saucers and strongly suspects they're a
new US weapon, which is interesting. Yeah. Yeah, And there's
there is another new finding I want to point out there,
(07:16):
and I believe no one's talked about, and that is
the ground Observer corpse in July fifty two. This is
a huge to me, this is a huge finding. So
what I found, what I kept stumbling on in newspapers
searching for UFO reports in fifty two July specifically, was
Ground Observer Corps Groundserver GOC. It was basically this huge
organized effort official across the entire country. We had hundreds
(07:41):
of observation posts. It spiked up to eight hundred thousand
to one million individuals depending on the source you get
it from. It was huge. And they went on twenty
four hour, twenty four to seven alert in early July
in this report of all over newspapers, and it's even
in the Truman Library, Like President Truman made a state
about this in December, and and I just posted Truman
(08:03):
statement on my ex account and Truman said that there,
you know, there are low flying craft that can't be
seen on radar. Well, in July fifty two, that's why
we had to go on twenty four hour alert. Well,
wait a second, what Soviet aircraft in July ninety fifty
two could fly all the way from the Soviet Union,
then go low and then dodge every single radar in
(08:23):
between the and Soviet It doesn't make any sense, George,
It makes no sense. It gets more interesting somehow they
went on twenty four to seven alert before DC was overflown,
so they had a heads up. George. It makes it's
a fascinating The more I dig, the more I'm finding
that what we know of UFO history and actually you know,
just United States history, is it's just a narrative. Like
(08:44):
if you go to the primary sources, it's very different.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
You ever look for or find something about men in
black MIBs?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yes, yes, I found a handful. Well, the first thing
I found is an official US government document and and
this was actually published in a book in the early
is a really important book called Clear Intent. And you
know this is you might be familiar with this, your lis,
But I find this fascinating. I have an exit. I
think I have a perhaps an explanation. March first, nineteen
(09:12):
sixty seven, Air Force Assistant Vice Chief says, Hey, these
mysterious individuals are showing up and they are personating our offices,
and they were taking photos and they're telling people they're
from Nora d and whatever. And he wanted, you know,
a FO see the Air Force Office of Special Investigations
to investigate it. And people, you know, they hear this
and they think, oh, it must be some paranormal event, right,
(09:34):
like some spooky you know, you know, maybe an alien
showed up and took the photo. Actually I don't, I
don't think so this was probably Listen if you trace
this in the I legal The legal framework was established
literally the day after Roswell it started to go into place.
July ninth, nineteen forty seven, they debunked Roswell with the
balloons just by newspaper articles and had events all over
(09:57):
the country about weather ballions. Later July ninth, nineteen forty seven,
the Senate votes on the National Security Act of nineteen
forty seven. So it's clear that if you can think
about this situation, think about it. I think about the
situation like this storie. There seems to be some sort
of covert force either here or close by, I don't
I don't know where, and they can fly over any
(10:19):
time they want, and they can cause hysteria and panic
in the military air force, you know, or eat operators
and civilians. Right, So it would make absolute perfect sense
for them to have agencies established to manage the situation
and ongoing emergency essentially. And so I have no doubt
whatsoever they were sending around people. You know, people would report, oh,
(10:40):
I have a photo, and then they would send somebody
to get the photos. You know, it needed to gather
the intelligence essentially. So I have that. I don't have
a lot. I hate to disappoint you, George, I don't
have a whole lot of m IB reportslable. I absolutely
love them.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, I imagine it was very weird for somebody to
report it anywhere. What would you do? I mean, you know,
who do you tell?
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah or something? Oh, I was on the break, I
was searching. I was like, hey, what can I find?
And NATO they were impersonating NATO, you know, They're like,
I'm from NATO and I want this right, So it
might be possible. I'm going to poke around over the
next few weeks and see if I can find anything.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
You mentioned clear intent, and I have to tell you
that is the one book. I mean, there were several
I wrote back in that period and when it was
cramming for it, but that is the one book that
got me hooked on it as a reporter because this
is a paper trail. These are government documents that these guys,
those authors dug up and various organizations and lawyers had
forced out of the government. And that made me think
(11:40):
this is doable. This is something that a reporter can
follow because it is based on government info, government file.
So it was it was a very important book in
my own development. I think it's reissued under a different title,
but it was a perfect piece of work.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah, in the newspaper, So there was a lot of
newspaper coverage from the individuals that I think it was
the Citizenens Citizens against UFO Secrecy c a US. Anyway,
they had good press relations and they kept just releasing
things to the press as they found it right, and
the information that appeared in newspapers in the late seventies
(12:16):
and early eighties about the UFO cover up was amazing,
Like CIA, you know, they're talking about the CIA interest
in UFOs and how the CIA in the NSA whatever,
we're keeping all the docs and not releasing them. And
you know, in one case in the early eighties, they
only were allowed I think the judge was only allowed
to look at look at it under you know, it
(12:36):
was like camera right, yeah, exactly, it's cleared. Like in
the olden days. They used to just pretend this didn't
exist at all, like when I was growing up eighties,
you know, eighties and nineties, and you know, and clearly
at this point, at this point, any school student could
wait in the newspapers dot com or go to the
California newspaper reposits where just free, and just start searching,
(12:57):
and within a few hours now the narratives are going
to blow up. You're going to see that. You know,
we had massive waves of UAP over the United States
in forty seven, fifty two, sixty six, sixty seven, and
then in between and of course to the modern era,
and then in between you know, thousands, literally thousands and
thousands of UFO sightings reported by local people to their
(13:20):
local newspapers.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
You had an interesting piece that involves Carl Sagan making
a startling admission. A couple of days ago. Do you
recall the details?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yes, yes, So in sixty eight there was a hearing.
It was called the rawsh Hearing, and it was US
Congressional hearing on UFOs formally titled the Symposium on Unidentified
Flying Objects. So I found this through laborious keyword searching.
It took days and days to find this, you know,
(13:51):
I somehow stumbled on it. And so doctor Carl Sagan
is testifying. It was also Heinech there, Menzel and some
other you know, I think mc donald was there as well.
Since sixty eight. This is right before the Common Report
lands and then right before the Air Force Blue Book
project goes under. And so Sagan says this, he says,
(14:12):
I'm going to quote him. The key quote is this quote. Apparently,
what is now happening is that the Air Force surveillance
radar is throwing away the data that is of relevance
for this inquiry. In other words, if it sees something
that is not on a ballistic trajectory we're not in orbit,
it ignores it, it throws it in the garbage. Well,
that garbage is just the area of our interests. So
(14:34):
if some method could be devised by the Air Force
to save the output that they are throwing away from
these space surveillance radars. It might be the least expensive
way to significantly improve our information about these phenomena unquote.
That is a fascinating That is an absolutely fascinating revelation.
That's a revelation. Wait a second, there's no way in
nineteen sixty eight we're going to throw away In my opinion,
(14:55):
there's no way in hell we're gonna throw away anything
like we were overflown in waves forty seven, nineteen fifty,
nineteen fifty two, nineteen sixty six. So there's no way
we're going to go, Oh, we're just going to throw
away anything's moving too fast. That's that's to me. I think, what,
in my opinion, what Sagan? This is the I guess
(15:16):
the extent of what Sagan knew. However, it turns out
Sagan had had a couple of security clearances through NASA
and another another organization, So he had a very high
security clearance through Project A one one nine. And so
the question now historically is what was he allowed to say?
(15:36):
Were they really throwing the data away? I don't think so.
I think it was just being scrolled away to another compartment,
is my opinion, it.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Was very Sagan was much more open minded about the
topic earlier. You know, he was interested clearly, and somewhere
along the line he changed on a dime and went
the other way, and you know, you see a book
like Contact, which became a really bause the movie. Yep,
he certainly seemed to have a broader ideas than what
he expressed during his career.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, he worked on nuclear weapons related stuff actually, so
that would be the highest of highest clearances. So I
hate to say this because I'm a big fan of
Sagan's work. Of course watched it, you know, as a child,
I read his books and stuff. Unfortunately, we have a
kind of a Donald Menzel light situation here, in my opinion,
(16:29):
where we can't really be sure anything any work that
any of Sagans work that intersects with the UAP problem.
We have to go and question it. We're going to go, okay,
let's just you know, quarantine this because he had a clearance.
And that's actually how I work in general with this
research is if we know somebody has a clearance or
likely had a clearance, well it's not their fault.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
You know.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
They have to sometimes not say things because you know,
tell a friend telling enemy. As Jim's Semivan XCA officer
would say. He has said in the.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Past, listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight
at one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to
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