April 13, 2025 • 14 mins
Guest host Richard Syrett and forensic pathologist Dr. John Brady discuss the possible psychology of one of America's most polarizing alleged murderers.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from coast to coast am on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Is it possible MANGIONI developed a kind of disassociate of
identity where oneself rationalized the violence while another remained socially functional.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I think this is a part of his identity transformation.
He disappeared for about six months. He was estranged from
his parents from Maryland. He moved to a commune in Hawaii,
and he began this kind of more radicalized experience when
(00:42):
he began to identify with Kazynsky. Then he read Kazinsky's
Manifesto Industrial State and its Future, commented on it, and
I read the quote before that this is war and
revolution and it's really necessary.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Now.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
If these patterns, then can go towards some sort of
a mitigation of his rational mental state at the time
of the crime. Particularly, let's look at the New York
case or look at the Federal case, where there is
a possibility to enter a plea of diminished capacity, which
(01:23):
means that you're not all sane or all insane, that
your mental status is parceled out kind of on a
continuum from knowing exactly what you're doing to not knowing
what you're doing. Interestingly enough, this defense was offered in
the federal case with Kazinski, and Kazinsky would obviously qualify
(01:49):
as a person that would meet the standards of diminished
capacity based on his delusional thinking and its preoccupation with
destroying whatever modern society might be. Now, if Mangio, if
the if the doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists who analyze prospectively Mangione,
(02:12):
if if they can enter this plea, if diminished capacity,
that he wasn't one hundred percent rational at the time
that he committed this particular crime, then it could be reduced.
The first degree murder charge could be reduced to second
degree or even first degree manslaughter, which for MANGIONI maybe
(02:34):
this is what the defense is hoping, that they can
have the charge reduced so he could plea out, plea
bargain out, and maybe get a fifteen years to life.
So with the possibility of parole. A similar situation, by
the way, with the the case in Southern California with
(02:59):
the menus as brothers, their faith with a re sentence
and hearing next week to see whether or not they
can be released on parole. So Mangione's major situation is
going to be to fight the state charges first degree
murder that require what's called the guilty mind that you
(03:25):
have to show that there's one hundred rationality, and if
that rationality is is altered, then diminished capacity could be
a good defense for him.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
In a case such as this, And again we're talking
about allegations only here, but in a case such as
this or similar cases, do you, as a forensic psychologist
look for a psychological tipping point and in Mangioni's case,
something that may have happened prior to December fourth, twenty
twenty four.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
I think it's really it's a it's a it's a
influence of several factors that impinged on an individual at
a certain time. If you look at sir hand, excuse me,
sir hand. For example, there were a number of factors
that led him to assassinate Robert Kennedy. Okay, excuse me
(04:24):
a second, all right, I mean some of those factors
were political where he thought Robert Kennedy was going to
destroy his his people, the Palestinians, So he turned against
Kennedy and wanted to wanted to eliminate him as a
(04:46):
potential enemy with excuse me, with MANCHIONI, he saw corporate
greed as being the enemy, and he saw the CEO
of United Healthcare as being a symbolic part of that
(05:07):
corporate greed.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Well, that leads me to a question, doctor Brady, in
cases like this, and in this case this supposed political
or social motivation, and whether they are in fact sincere
or merely rationalizations for personal vengeance or nihilism.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Well, I think that the perpetrator of these crimes, such
as as sir Han and Kazinski and MANGEONI that their
belief system gets so distorted that they actually believe what
they're doing can be justified and they're doing good rather
(05:53):
than doing bad. So once you reach that point where
you're rational behavior is so compromised that you're convinced that
your deeds are really instrumental in helping society rather than
a negative event.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
All right, My next question, doctor Brady, I guess is
somewhat conspiratorial. But when we see high profile historical assassinations,
this question often comes up, and that is, could Mangione's
alleged behavior be the result of induced delusional disorder? In
(06:38):
other words, he had help, he had a handler, he
had he was programmed.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Yeah, the induced delusionable disorder is a pretty interesting concept,
and it really applies in some cases where there is
a master person or the original original of the delusion
that transfers that negative behavior to the the the subordinate person.
(07:09):
What I found in the in the Oswald case is
that his mother death definitely was affected by this induced
delusion of disorder, and she imparted a lot of this
negative pathology to a young Lee Harvey Oswald, and and
it contributed to his his own pathology later.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
All right, let's grab a couple of quick calls here
west of the Rockies. Dave is in Spokane, Washington. Dave,
welcome to coast. You're on the line with doctor John Brady.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Go ahead. It's hard to either over analyze or under
analys this whole issue when these people are in the
general population. If you look at Jeffrey Dalmer, they released
him into the population and then one of the population
killed them. You leave these people alive in prison. They
(08:07):
have no sense of purpose, nothing to gain in this life.
And for me, if I were obsessed and possessed like
they are, I would rather be get a mercy killing
administered to myself. Isn't that part of an escape.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the that's the final,
final escape. For the preceding that escape has to be
some sense of awareness that what you're doing is really wrong,
that you're not a self designated savior, that you're really
(08:48):
doing an evil act that has to be interpreted by
society as being evil.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
All right, Dave, thank you for the call. Let's grab
another one wrong in Michigan on the wild card line. Ron,
good morning, Welcome to coast.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Good morning, folks. And I believe that the three trials
that are planned in the death sentence that is already
ordained by Trump is going to raise up Luigi to sainthood,
that martyrdom, and it's going to create a group of
followers who are being denied their medical benefits and veterans
are being denied their benefits and being told to just
(09:27):
crawl and die or commit suicide. I think that'll become
the Luigi's and it'll be sweeping this country about the world.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Interesting point. Thank you for that, Ron, Doctor Brady, are
you concerned. I mean that he could be well even
if he receives a life sentence or if he's convicted period,
he may be turned into likely will be turned into
some kind of a martyr for a certain radicalized group.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Your thoughts, Well, I think he's already there. I mean,
he's already, you know, achieved that status as a social
justice warrior who people have identified with as being a
righteous fighter for freedom, as opposed to what the legal
(10:13):
system thinks of him as a premeditated stalking murderer who
killed this person for his own personal social reasons. He's
not Jeffrey Dahmer. He's not a crazed sex killer. He's
(10:36):
an ideological, confused, delusional person who you mentioned kind of
drifted into this altered state. It may not be an altered,
totally altered state of awareness, but it approximates that where
he lived in a reality that was pervaded by this
(10:58):
social justice retribution, with him being the person who should
administer justice in society, which is is kind of an
delusional sense. And he says in his manifesto that he
(11:19):
is the only one so far that has had the
courage to step forward and to do it. And I
guess it is the assassination.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
How common is it, speaking of manifestos, how common is
it for killers? And again these are allegations, but for
killers to leave behind manifesto's, letters, recordings, and what does
this say about their internal need to be heard?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Oh, I think I think it's very common, whether or
not it's in information or materials taken from a crime
scene that are later inculpator that contributed to their being caught,
or maybe they leave things because there's kind of an
unconscious awareness that what they're doing is actually wrong and
(12:13):
they want to be caught, so there's a sense of
guilt as trying to break through this unconscious awareness. It's
pretty interesting because with Sir Hand, obviously he left this
huge diary RFK Must Die, And in that diary were
many statements that were negative concerning his planning to kill
(12:37):
Robert Kennedy. That they were very explicit, that RFK must die.
I'll kill him. If he was in front of me,
I would blast him. He made those kinds of statements, which,
in my interpretation, was that he was in an altered
state and he was trying to convey his sense of
guilt to the other part of his personality that was
(13:00):
kind of naive to this evil second person.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Is there a danger in too quickly labeling such individuals
as mentally ill when their crimes may be more ideologically
or culturally driven.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
It really depends on what the you know, that's that's
a psychiatric legal question. It really depends on what defenses
are available to the individual in a particular venue. So
with with Mangione, it's it's it's pretty obvious to most
(13:36):
of his that a that a a full blown psychiatric
defense saying that he is experiencing or suffering from a
mental disorder. Uh that is is is completely psychotic. It's
probably not going to work. But the diminished capacity defense
may be an applicable defense that his turning the years,
(14:01):
his defense team can put forward as a defense.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at
one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam
dot com for more
Now here's a highlight from coast to coast am on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Is it possible MANGIONI developed a kind of disassociate of
identity where oneself rationalized the violence while another remained socially functional.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I think this is a part of his identity transformation.
He disappeared for about six months. He was estranged from
his parents from Maryland. He moved to a commune in Hawaii,
and he began this kind of more radicalized experience when
(00:42):
he began to identify with Kazynsky. Then he read Kazinsky's
Manifesto Industrial State and its Future, commented on it, and
I read the quote before that this is war and
revolution and it's really necessary.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Now.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
If these patterns, then can go towards some sort of
a mitigation of his rational mental state at the time
of the crime. Particularly, let's look at the New York
case or look at the Federal case, where there is
a possibility to enter a plea of diminished capacity, which
(01:23):
means that you're not all sane or all insane, that
your mental status is parceled out kind of on a
continuum from knowing exactly what you're doing to not knowing
what you're doing. Interestingly enough, this defense was offered in
the federal case with Kazinski, and Kazinsky would obviously qualify
(01:49):
as a person that would meet the standards of diminished
capacity based on his delusional thinking and its preoccupation with
destroying whatever modern society might be. Now, if Mangio, if
the if the doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists who analyze prospectively Mangione,
(02:12):
if if they can enter this plea, if diminished capacity,
that he wasn't one hundred percent rational at the time
that he committed this particular crime, then it could be reduced.
The first degree murder charge could be reduced to second
degree or even first degree manslaughter, which for MANGIONI maybe
(02:34):
this is what the defense is hoping, that they can
have the charge reduced so he could plea out, plea
bargain out, and maybe get a fifteen years to life.
So with the possibility of parole. A similar situation, by
the way, with the the case in Southern California with
(02:59):
the menus as brothers, their faith with a re sentence
and hearing next week to see whether or not they
can be released on parole. So Mangione's major situation is
going to be to fight the state charges first degree
murder that require what's called the guilty mind that you
(03:25):
have to show that there's one hundred rationality, and if
that rationality is is altered, then diminished capacity could be
a good defense for him.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
In a case such as this, And again we're talking
about allegations only here, but in a case such as
this or similar cases, do you, as a forensic psychologist
look for a psychological tipping point and in Mangioni's case,
something that may have happened prior to December fourth, twenty
twenty four.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
I think it's really it's a it's a it's a
influence of several factors that impinged on an individual at
a certain time. If you look at sir hand, excuse me,
sir hand. For example, there were a number of factors
that led him to assassinate Robert Kennedy. Okay, excuse me
(04:24):
a second, all right, I mean some of those factors
were political where he thought Robert Kennedy was going to
destroy his his people, the Palestinians, So he turned against
Kennedy and wanted to wanted to eliminate him as a
(04:46):
potential enemy with excuse me, with MANCHIONI, he saw corporate
greed as being the enemy, and he saw the CEO
of United Healthcare as being a symbolic part of that
(05:07):
corporate greed.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Well, that leads me to a question, doctor Brady, in
cases like this, and in this case this supposed political
or social motivation, and whether they are in fact sincere
or merely rationalizations for personal vengeance or nihilism.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Well, I think that the perpetrator of these crimes, such
as as sir Han and Kazinski and MANGEONI that their
belief system gets so distorted that they actually believe what
they're doing can be justified and they're doing good rather
(05:53):
than doing bad. So once you reach that point where
you're rational behavior is so compromised that you're convinced that
your deeds are really instrumental in helping society rather than
a negative event.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
All right, My next question, doctor Brady, I guess is
somewhat conspiratorial. But when we see high profile historical assassinations,
this question often comes up, and that is, could Mangione's
alleged behavior be the result of induced delusional disorder? In
(06:38):
other words, he had help, he had a handler, he
had he was programmed.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Yeah, the induced delusionable disorder is a pretty interesting concept,
and it really applies in some cases where there is
a master person or the original original of the delusion
that transfers that negative behavior to the the the subordinate person.
(07:09):
What I found in the in the Oswald case is
that his mother death definitely was affected by this induced
delusion of disorder, and she imparted a lot of this
negative pathology to a young Lee Harvey Oswald, and and
it contributed to his his own pathology later.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
All right, let's grab a couple of quick calls here
west of the Rockies. Dave is in Spokane, Washington. Dave,
welcome to coast. You're on the line with doctor John Brady.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Go ahead. It's hard to either over analyze or under
analys this whole issue when these people are in the
general population. If you look at Jeffrey Dalmer, they released
him into the population and then one of the population
killed them. You leave these people alive in prison. They
(08:07):
have no sense of purpose, nothing to gain in this life.
And for me, if I were obsessed and possessed like
they are, I would rather be get a mercy killing
administered to myself. Isn't that part of an escape.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the that's the final,
final escape. For the preceding that escape has to be
some sense of awareness that what you're doing is really wrong,
that you're not a self designated savior, that you're really
(08:48):
doing an evil act that has to be interpreted by
society as being evil.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
All right, Dave, thank you for the call. Let's grab
another one wrong in Michigan on the wild card line. Ron,
good morning, Welcome to coast.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Good morning, folks. And I believe that the three trials
that are planned in the death sentence that is already
ordained by Trump is going to raise up Luigi to sainthood,
that martyrdom, and it's going to create a group of
followers who are being denied their medical benefits and veterans
are being denied their benefits and being told to just
(09:27):
crawl and die or commit suicide. I think that'll become
the Luigi's and it'll be sweeping this country about the world.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Interesting point. Thank you for that, Ron, Doctor Brady, are
you concerned. I mean that he could be well even
if he receives a life sentence or if he's convicted period,
he may be turned into likely will be turned into
some kind of a martyr for a certain radicalized group.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Your thoughts, Well, I think he's already there. I mean,
he's already, you know, achieved that status as a social
justice warrior who people have identified with as being a
righteous fighter for freedom, as opposed to what the legal
(10:13):
system thinks of him as a premeditated stalking murderer who
killed this person for his own personal social reasons. He's
not Jeffrey Dahmer. He's not a crazed sex killer. He's
(10:36):
an ideological, confused, delusional person who you mentioned kind of
drifted into this altered state. It may not be an altered,
totally altered state of awareness, but it approximates that where
he lived in a reality that was pervaded by this
(10:58):
social justice retribution, with him being the person who should
administer justice in society, which is is kind of an
delusional sense. And he says in his manifesto that he
(11:19):
is the only one so far that has had the
courage to step forward and to do it. And I
guess it is the assassination.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
How common is it, speaking of manifestos, how common is
it for killers? And again these are allegations, but for
killers to leave behind manifesto's, letters, recordings, and what does
this say about their internal need to be heard?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Oh, I think I think it's very common, whether or
not it's in information or materials taken from a crime
scene that are later inculpator that contributed to their being caught,
or maybe they leave things because there's kind of an
unconscious awareness that what they're doing is actually wrong and
(12:13):
they want to be caught, so there's a sense of
guilt as trying to break through this unconscious awareness. It's
pretty interesting because with Sir Hand, obviously he left this
huge diary RFK Must Die, And in that diary were
many statements that were negative concerning his planning to kill
(12:37):
Robert Kennedy. That they were very explicit, that RFK must die.
I'll kill him. If he was in front of me,
I would blast him. He made those kinds of statements, which,
in my interpretation, was that he was in an altered
state and he was trying to convey his sense of
guilt to the other part of his personality that was
(13:00):
kind of naive to this evil second person.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Is there a danger in too quickly labeling such individuals
as mentally ill when their crimes may be more ideologically
or culturally driven.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
It really depends on what the you know, that's that's
a psychiatric legal question. It really depends on what defenses
are available to the individual in a particular venue. So
with with Mangione, it's it's it's pretty obvious to most
(13:36):
of his that a that a a full blown psychiatric
defense saying that he is experiencing or suffering from a
mental disorder. Uh that is is is completely psychotic. It's
probably not going to work. But the diminished capacity defense
may be an applicable defense that his turning the years,
(14:01):
his defense team can put forward as a defense.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at
one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam
dot com for more
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