June 5, 2020 • 15 mins
George Noory and Mark Jacobson discuss the life and times of Beyond the Pale Horse author Bill Cooper. His radio career and controversial military record are discussed. His influence ranges from various Hip Hop artists and Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on
iHeartRadio and welcome back to Coast to Coast, George Nori
with you. Let me tell you a little bit about
Mark Jacobson. He was with me back a couple of
years ago. Has been a working journalist for the past
forty five years. Mark is a born and bred New Yorker.
Over the years, he has been employed by the New
York magazine, Rolling Stone, Esquire, National Geographic, among other publications.
(00:24):
Is New York Magazine piece night Shifting for the Hip
Fleet was adapted into the long running TV series Taxi,
and in two thousand he wrote Return of Superfly, which
served as the basis for the hit film American Gangster.
Jacobson's most recent book is what We're going to talk
About Tonight, Pale Horse Writer, Mark, Welcome back and how
are things in New York? You're okay? Oh things in
(00:47):
New York against George. Yeah, I'm very happy to be
on Coast to Coast and makes me feel like a
person you know somebody well you are and you did
a great job for me a couple of years ago.
By the way, I'm still getting emails about you. Oh really, Yeah,
it's amazing. It's amazing. We've got we've got a great
(01:08):
audience and everything else. But let's talk a little bit
about Bill Cooper. You know, he had been on our
show years and years and years ago with our bell um.
You know, I've seen a lot of clips of him
at conferences where he gave speeches, and he came across
as a pretty intelligent guy. But then all of a sudden,
(01:30):
I think toward the latter part of his life, I
think he kind of flipped out or something. But what
can you tell us about this guy? Well, and it's true,
he's a very intelligent guy. I mean, he was exceedingly
smart guy. I mean, and I mean his basic his
basic career is fit's the perfect second half of the
(01:53):
twentieth century. I mean, as he's really a man of
his times. Born in nineteen forty three. He died six
weeks after nine to eleven, which She's probably most famous
for her actually predicting. His followers believe he predicted it,
and he actually, you know, as he makes they makes
a good case, and I believe it. In one of
(02:15):
his broadcasts a few months before nine eleven, he said,
something horrible is going to happen in this country, and
they're going to blame it an Osama bin Laden, which
is basically what happened. So, you know, he and then
six weeks later he was shot dead at his house.
And he also predicted as they're going to come up here,
and he lives on the top of a hill in Arizona,
(02:38):
and they said, they're going to come up here at
midnight and shoot me dead on my front doorstep. And
in fact, on the night of November fifth, two thousand
and one, the police, the Apache County Sheriff, did come
up to his house and shoot him dead on his
front doorstep at about five minutes after midnight. So he
was pretty close on that he had wounded. He had
(03:01):
shot a deputy in the head, didn't he Yeah, he did,
he did, and that person never really recovered from that.
That stuff is not usually mentioned in the in the
Cooper legend, but uh, you know, because I mean Bill
Cooper is kind of like a saint of you know,
over the years, and it's already now almost two years
(03:24):
since this book came out, um, but he remained as
popular as he ever was, probably more so, and he's
considered to be the father of what was generally referred
to as a truth movement, and he's the man, he
really is. I mean, there are others who are pretenders,
but nobody can compete with Cooper um basically because of
(03:48):
that book, which is which has sold over a three
hundred thousand copies, which is amazing, astounding number. Really, I
wish some are my books. Yeah, me too too, And
considering that, you know, the book has never been it's
never really gotten a fair merchandising things. For a long time,
(04:12):
that book was the most stolen book in the history
of Barnes and Noble, the most shoplifted book. Wow, you
couldn't buy it. It wasn't on the shelves, you know,
and it was in later and probably probably one of
the main main attractions of the Cooper legend is that,
(04:33):
you know, Pale Horse, Ryan Behold the Pale Horse was
the number one read book in the prison systems in
the East Coast. Yeah, they love it. You know. I
still get calls from people during open lines every once
in a while about Bill Cooper. He thought he was
being personally targeted by then President Bill Clinton and the
(04:55):
Internal Revenue Service, and I guess he was charged with
tax evasion that's why the deputies want to get him.
And I'm not sure that's actually not just actually not accurate.
Why were they Why were they asking to get him
because he he threatened the town doctor. Um a few
(05:16):
weeks before this. I mean somebody he was actually say
he did kind of flip out near the end, or
he was not acting, he was acting erratically, let's just
say that. Um. But he's up there on top of
his mountain doing his shortwave radio show too. Maybe he
used to claim that he had millions of audiences and
(05:37):
millions of people listening to him, but I think it's
really near the end. It was more like in the
Triple figures, you know, it wasn't that many people were
listening to him. So he's this kind of semi and saying, guy,
his wife has left him, taking his children. He's up
there by himself. He's a he's downing, uh, downing, you know,
(06:02):
on a bottle of Jack Daniels per day, and he's
doing his radio show and doing he was did you
ever listened to him? He's fantastic on the radio. I
mean he's really a master of the form, as good
as almost anybody. Oh yeah, when he when he didn't
use profanity. I mean he would get out of control sometimes. Yah. Well,
(06:23):
you know I think that if you listen to these broadcasts,
which are all available on the hour of the time website,
you know he had these, there'll be long gaps in
which time he wouldn't do a show. And according to
everybody that I talked to, that was when he was
on a bender. But then he'd come back and he'd
be great. I mean his reporting on Waco, for instance,
(06:44):
where he actually went to is I mean, it's as
good as anything you'll ever hear about that. It's fantastic.
I mean he's there, he's on the scene, he's doing
his newscasting thing, and you know, he's doing his Edward R.
Murrow thing at Waco, which nobody else would do, certainly
nobody in the mainstream media. And um, and he literally
(07:05):
provided a great service. And then he's a man of
highs and lows. Mister Cooper was you know, um And
you know, people you still get emails about him. But
I mean I get these phone calls when people call
me or email me and ask me, like, what would
Bill think about this? You know, what would he think
about the COVID nineteen what would he think about the
(07:26):
protests that we're going on now, And you know, the
guy's been dead for twenty years. I don't know what
he would think. But I mean, you know, I have
a stare at some cinema. You know, I can infer
from everything I know about him. More time he might
have felt about it. He'd probably he's still uppermost in
the mind of many people. He is, didn't Kim McVeigh,
(07:46):
the Oklahoma City bomber, listened to him religiously, well, well
religiously I don't know, but he listened to him. And actually,
according to Cooper uh and their eye witnesses, McVey actually
visited Cooper shortly before the Oklahoma City bombing and had
(08:07):
a long conversation with him because he wanted he kind
of wanted Cooper's blessing or his advice about what to do,
you know, whether or not he should go through with
this without actually telling Cooper what if he's complanning on doing.
And he asked Cooper, who said, he said, well, if
you got stopped by the police, um, and you were
(08:30):
and you were like, you know, foot of buant thoos,
what would you do? And h Cooper said, well, I
would just you know, if they had me, I would
just do what they said. He said, you wouldn't shoot
it out with them or anything like that because he
Cooper didn't know the guy was planning on Jamy obviously.
So um. And in fact, when Timms, they was apprehended
(08:53):
for people who know about this kind of stuff. Um,
he the sheriff came out and he actually gave himself
up even though he had a gun, and he basically,
you know, and this is the guy that wanted to
get caught. You don't you don't make it have an escape,
um vehicle with no license. I mean, you want to
(09:16):
get stop by the police. That's a good way to
do it, right. So um, you know, it's just Cooper
is um. I mean, he wave. He weaves in and
out of pop culture in a way that is very interesting,
you know. And I write a lot about his effect
over the hip hop community and uh and how you
(09:37):
named the rappers in the nineteen nineties, they were all
quoting Bill Cooper from Boutan Clan to Pop quoted him. Nas.
I mean, I mean everybody you know, all the big
deal buster rhymes, they all were Bill Cooper fans. So
that was kind of what got me interested in the topic.
I mean, I said, why are these um these these
(09:59):
New York streets guys. Yeah, so into into a guy,
a big fat guy was in top of a mountain
in Arizona, you know, and then you kind of dig
into it and it became a very I'm saying it
was a semi obsession reporting job. You know, many many
reporting jobs to get that way, as you probably know,
(10:20):
but this one was. This one had a special and
his little twist into it, you know. And there seems
to be some confusion mark whether you know he was
in the military what he did. Um, he claimed that
he was in the Air Force and the Navy high
up in rank. Others say that they checked into it
and he wasn't. He was like a petty officer or something. Well,
(10:41):
he was a pudding officer, he was. He got to
understand that Bill Cooper had a lot of enemies, including
George Knapps, my buddy, your buddy, I asked him about
Bill Cooper. Um, you know Bill Cooper, I mean, he
most of it all dates back to his time in
the UFOs because that's really where he first breaks out.
(11:03):
He broke out of nowhere, you know, I mean I
guess you know, the UFO community is pretty parochial. I mean, Eric,
everybody's got their little turf and people don't you know,
it's very tight and very kind of like, you know,
he's a degree of suspicion. I don't know how you
want to put it. I mean, you know more about
it than I do. But you know, then all of
(11:25):
a sudden, this Cooper guy shows up and he's claiming
that he has he saw all these papers when he
was working for an admiral in the Pacific Fleet, and
he knows all the stuff, you know, because he saw
these tight papers. He never produces the papers. And he
had a fantastic really one of the all time great
(11:48):
sighting stories with a big football sized UFO while he
was stationed on a summarine that flew over them and
then fulve into the water and came back out again.
And you know, it's just and the way he tells it,
it's fantastic. I mean, you know, you're snowbound when you
hear them talk about this, because he's a great um.
(12:11):
You know, he's a great talker. So and then you know,
then you know, there was no rain really been proved,
so a lot of people got really mad, and he's
a very abrasive personality. People like. Even a really nice
guy like John Leer has his doubts about Bill Cooper,
you know, so, I mean John Leward is one of
(12:33):
the nicest guys you run across, so like um and
you know, and there were people had hated him, like
um Stan Friedman hated him. One of those guys hated
Cooper because he was getting a lot of play. I
remember Dewey Goodman. H Yeah, he used to have Cooper
on the show all the time and taking a lot
of the air out of the room. So that's partially
(12:56):
where the hatred of Bill Cooper comes from. But you know,
in all my research, I believe his military his military
record has printed in the back of his book is correct.
Did he ever change his views on UFOs? Mark, I mean,
being the staunch believer and then did he change later
on in life? He changed? He did? He was the
(13:20):
you know, he changed. He claimed that he changed his
mind about UFOs when he ran across a speech given
by John Dewey, who was a famous intellectual of a
pragmatists in nineteen seventeen. He made a speech which really
became a little known hallmark of a conspiracy movement, in
(13:44):
which was later picked up by Ronald Reagan a few
other people. I'm saying that, like, you know, if we
only could have an enemy from out of space, then
all humanity would would band together to fight this outsider
and we will get our differences. And this was like
a big light bulb a Cooper that the alien stuff
(14:04):
and ordifying saucer stuff was all a honx and that um,
it was just another control mechanism, another story for the
for the so called sheeple to to believe in and
distract them from what was really going on. He's the inventor,
or at least a popularizer of the term sheeple. I
(14:26):
mean he's he's kind of deep into popular culture in
the sense that, you know, he vents the idea of
every how many times you heard the words sheeple. He
also was the first person to use the term woke.
I mean, he's just kind of like there in in
these and becomes more in the generic talking of the
(14:47):
people in the street. They've never heard of Bill Cooper,
you know, wake up sheeple, or he tis the sepul
or something like that. Um, but these are all Cooper
terms that he made up. I mean, he's he's kind
of a wizard that um at pop culture. He never
really made it during his lifetime because that book, he
never made any money out of it. Um, it's mostly
(15:08):
all taken by his publisher. LIGHTE Technology basically publishes um,
you know, channeling books and somebody that was coup behavioral
at channeling stuff. So you know, he's just he's a
contradictory and fascinating person and I often reposed as a
great American. Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every
(15:31):
weeknight at one am Eastern and go to Coast to
Coast am dot com for more
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on
iHeartRadio and welcome back to Coast to Coast, George Nori
with you. Let me tell you a little bit about
Mark Jacobson. He was with me back a couple of
years ago. Has been a working journalist for the past
forty five years. Mark is a born and bred New Yorker.
Over the years, he has been employed by the New
York magazine, Rolling Stone, Esquire, National Geographic, among other publications.
(00:24):
Is New York Magazine piece night Shifting for the Hip
Fleet was adapted into the long running TV series Taxi,
and in two thousand he wrote Return of Superfly, which
served as the basis for the hit film American Gangster.
Jacobson's most recent book is what We're going to talk
About Tonight, Pale Horse Writer, Mark, Welcome back and how
are things in New York? You're okay? Oh things in
(00:47):
New York against George. Yeah, I'm very happy to be
on Coast to Coast and makes me feel like a
person you know somebody well you are and you did
a great job for me a couple of years ago.
By the way, I'm still getting emails about you. Oh really, Yeah,
it's amazing. It's amazing. We've got we've got a great
(01:08):
audience and everything else. But let's talk a little bit
about Bill Cooper. You know, he had been on our
show years and years and years ago with our bell um.
You know, I've seen a lot of clips of him
at conferences where he gave speeches, and he came across
as a pretty intelligent guy. But then all of a sudden,
(01:30):
I think toward the latter part of his life, I
think he kind of flipped out or something. But what
can you tell us about this guy? Well, and it's true,
he's a very intelligent guy. I mean, he was exceedingly
smart guy. I mean, and I mean his basic his
basic career is fit's the perfect second half of the
(01:53):
twentieth century. I mean, as he's really a man of
his times. Born in nineteen forty three. He died six
weeks after nine to eleven, which She's probably most famous
for her actually predicting. His followers believe he predicted it,
and he actually, you know, as he makes they makes
a good case, and I believe it. In one of
(02:15):
his broadcasts a few months before nine eleven, he said,
something horrible is going to happen in this country, and
they're going to blame it an Osama bin Laden, which
is basically what happened. So, you know, he and then
six weeks later he was shot dead at his house.
And he also predicted as they're going to come up here,
and he lives on the top of a hill in Arizona,
(02:38):
and they said, they're going to come up here at
midnight and shoot me dead on my front doorstep. And
in fact, on the night of November fifth, two thousand
and one, the police, the Apache County Sheriff, did come
up to his house and shoot him dead on his
front doorstep at about five minutes after midnight. So he
was pretty close on that he had wounded. He had
(03:01):
shot a deputy in the head, didn't he Yeah, he did,
he did, and that person never really recovered from that.
That stuff is not usually mentioned in the in the
Cooper legend, but uh, you know, because I mean Bill
Cooper is kind of like a saint of you know,
over the years, and it's already now almost two years
(03:24):
since this book came out, um, but he remained as
popular as he ever was, probably more so, and he's
considered to be the father of what was generally referred
to as a truth movement, and he's the man, he
really is. I mean, there are others who are pretenders,
but nobody can compete with Cooper um basically because of
(03:48):
that book, which is which has sold over a three
hundred thousand copies, which is amazing, astounding number. Really, I
wish some are my books. Yeah, me too too, And
considering that, you know, the book has never been it's
never really gotten a fair merchandising things. For a long time,
(04:12):
that book was the most stolen book in the history
of Barnes and Noble, the most shoplifted book. Wow, you
couldn't buy it. It wasn't on the shelves, you know,
and it was in later and probably probably one of
the main main attractions of the Cooper legend is that,
(04:33):
you know, Pale Horse, Ryan Behold the Pale Horse was
the number one read book in the prison systems in
the East Coast. Yeah, they love it. You know. I
still get calls from people during open lines every once
in a while about Bill Cooper. He thought he was
being personally targeted by then President Bill Clinton and the
(04:55):
Internal Revenue Service, and I guess he was charged with
tax evasion that's why the deputies want to get him.
And I'm not sure that's actually not just actually not accurate.
Why were they Why were they asking to get him
because he he threatened the town doctor. Um a few
(05:16):
weeks before this. I mean somebody he was actually say
he did kind of flip out near the end, or
he was not acting, he was acting erratically, let's just
say that. Um. But he's up there on top of
his mountain doing his shortwave radio show too. Maybe he
used to claim that he had millions of audiences and
(05:37):
millions of people listening to him, but I think it's
really near the end. It was more like in the
Triple figures, you know, it wasn't that many people were
listening to him. So he's this kind of semi and saying, guy,
his wife has left him, taking his children. He's up
there by himself. He's a he's downing, uh, downing, you know,
(06:02):
on a bottle of Jack Daniels per day, and he's
doing his radio show and doing he was did you
ever listened to him? He's fantastic on the radio. I
mean he's really a master of the form, as good
as almost anybody. Oh yeah, when he when he didn't
use profanity. I mean he would get out of control sometimes. Yah. Well,
(06:23):
you know I think that if you listen to these broadcasts,
which are all available on the hour of the time website,
you know he had these, there'll be long gaps in
which time he wouldn't do a show. And according to
everybody that I talked to, that was when he was
on a bender. But then he'd come back and he'd
be great. I mean his reporting on Waco, for instance,
(06:44):
where he actually went to is I mean, it's as
good as anything you'll ever hear about that. It's fantastic.
I mean he's there, he's on the scene, he's doing
his newscasting thing, and you know, he's doing his Edward R.
Murrow thing at Waco, which nobody else would do, certainly
nobody in the mainstream media. And um, and he literally
(07:05):
provided a great service. And then he's a man of
highs and lows. Mister Cooper was you know, um And
you know, people you still get emails about him. But
I mean I get these phone calls when people call
me or email me and ask me, like, what would
Bill think about this? You know, what would he think
about the COVID nineteen what would he think about the
(07:26):
protests that we're going on now, And you know, the
guy's been dead for twenty years. I don't know what
he would think. But I mean, you know, I have
a stare at some cinema. You know, I can infer
from everything I know about him. More time he might
have felt about it. He'd probably he's still uppermost in
the mind of many people. He is, didn't Kim McVeigh,
(07:46):
the Oklahoma City bomber, listened to him religiously, well, well
religiously I don't know, but he listened to him. And actually,
according to Cooper uh and their eye witnesses, McVey actually
visited Cooper shortly before the Oklahoma City bombing and had
(08:07):
a long conversation with him because he wanted he kind
of wanted Cooper's blessing or his advice about what to do,
you know, whether or not he should go through with
this without actually telling Cooper what if he's complanning on doing.
And he asked Cooper, who said, he said, well, if
you got stopped by the police, um, and you were
(08:30):
and you were like, you know, foot of buant thoos,
what would you do? And h Cooper said, well, I
would just you know, if they had me, I would
just do what they said. He said, you wouldn't shoot
it out with them or anything like that because he
Cooper didn't know the guy was planning on Jamy obviously.
So um. And in fact, when Timms, they was apprehended
(08:53):
for people who know about this kind of stuff. Um,
he the sheriff came out and he actually gave himself
up even though he had a gun, and he basically,
you know, and this is the guy that wanted to
get caught. You don't you don't make it have an escape,
um vehicle with no license. I mean, you want to
(09:16):
get stop by the police. That's a good way to
do it, right. So um, you know, it's just Cooper
is um. I mean, he wave. He weaves in and
out of pop culture in a way that is very interesting,
you know. And I write a lot about his effect
over the hip hop community and uh and how you
(09:37):
named the rappers in the nineteen nineties, they were all
quoting Bill Cooper from Boutan Clan to Pop quoted him. Nas.
I mean, I mean everybody you know, all the big
deal buster rhymes, they all were Bill Cooper fans. So
that was kind of what got me interested in the topic.
I mean, I said, why are these um these these
(09:59):
New York streets guys. Yeah, so into into a guy,
a big fat guy was in top of a mountain
in Arizona, you know, and then you kind of dig
into it and it became a very I'm saying it
was a semi obsession reporting job. You know, many many
reporting jobs to get that way, as you probably know,
(10:20):
but this one was. This one had a special and
his little twist into it, you know. And there seems
to be some confusion mark whether you know he was
in the military what he did. Um, he claimed that
he was in the Air Force and the Navy high
up in rank. Others say that they checked into it
and he wasn't. He was like a petty officer or something. Well,
(10:41):
he was a pudding officer, he was. He got to
understand that Bill Cooper had a lot of enemies, including
George Knapps, my buddy, your buddy, I asked him about
Bill Cooper. Um, you know Bill Cooper, I mean, he
most of it all dates back to his time in
the UFOs because that's really where he first breaks out.
(11:03):
He broke out of nowhere, you know, I mean I
guess you know, the UFO community is pretty parochial. I mean, Eric,
everybody's got their little turf and people don't you know,
it's very tight and very kind of like, you know,
he's a degree of suspicion. I don't know how you
want to put it. I mean, you know more about
it than I do. But you know, then all of
(11:25):
a sudden, this Cooper guy shows up and he's claiming
that he has he saw all these papers when he
was working for an admiral in the Pacific Fleet, and
he knows all the stuff, you know, because he saw
these tight papers. He never produces the papers. And he
had a fantastic really one of the all time great
(11:48):
sighting stories with a big football sized UFO while he
was stationed on a summarine that flew over them and
then fulve into the water and came back out again.
And you know, it's just and the way he tells it,
it's fantastic. I mean, you know, you're snowbound when you
hear them talk about this, because he's a great um.
(12:11):
You know, he's a great talker. So and then you know,
then you know, there was no rain really been proved,
so a lot of people got really mad, and he's
a very abrasive personality. People like. Even a really nice
guy like John Leer has his doubts about Bill Cooper,
you know, so, I mean John Leward is one of
(12:33):
the nicest guys you run across, so like um and
you know, and there were people had hated him, like
um Stan Friedman hated him. One of those guys hated
Cooper because he was getting a lot of play. I
remember Dewey Goodman. H Yeah, he used to have Cooper
on the show all the time and taking a lot
of the air out of the room. So that's partially
(12:56):
where the hatred of Bill Cooper comes from. But you know,
in all my research, I believe his military his military
record has printed in the back of his book is correct.
Did he ever change his views on UFOs? Mark, I mean,
being the staunch believer and then did he change later
on in life? He changed? He did? He was the
(13:20):
you know, he changed. He claimed that he changed his
mind about UFOs when he ran across a speech given
by John Dewey, who was a famous intellectual of a
pragmatists in nineteen seventeen. He made a speech which really
became a little known hallmark of a conspiracy movement, in
(13:44):
which was later picked up by Ronald Reagan a few
other people. I'm saying that, like, you know, if we
only could have an enemy from out of space, then
all humanity would would band together to fight this outsider
and we will get our differences. And this was like
a big light bulb a Cooper that the alien stuff
(14:04):
and ordifying saucer stuff was all a honx and that um,
it was just another control mechanism, another story for the
for the so called sheeple to to believe in and
distract them from what was really going on. He's the inventor,
or at least a popularizer of the term sheeple. I
(14:26):
mean he's he's kind of deep into popular culture in
the sense that, you know, he vents the idea of
every how many times you heard the words sheeple. He
also was the first person to use the term woke.
I mean, he's just kind of like there in in
these and becomes more in the generic talking of the
(14:47):
people in the street. They've never heard of Bill Cooper,
you know, wake up sheeple, or he tis the sepul
or something like that. Um, but these are all Cooper
terms that he made up. I mean, he's he's kind
of a wizard that um at pop culture. He never
really made it during his lifetime because that book, he
never made any money out of it. Um, it's mostly
(15:08):
all taken by his publisher. LIGHTE Technology basically publishes um,
you know, channeling books and somebody that was coup behavioral
at channeling stuff. So you know, he's just he's a
contradictory and fascinating person and I often reposed as a
great American. Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every
(15:31):
weeknight at one am Eastern and go to Coast to
Coast am dot com for more
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