October 22, 2025 • 17 mins
George Noory and author Carl Abrahamsson discuss the worlds of magic and the occult, how magic allows users to actually change reality, and his interactions with notorious satanist Anton LaVey.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.
Carl Abramson back with us a Swedish author who has
written more than twenty books, many of which deal with
magic and the occult. His research has led him to
come in contact with and become friends with many who
study who have studied the occult as well. One of
his latest books, Meetings with Remarkable Magicians Life in the
(00:26):
Occult Underworld. Carl, welcome back. How have you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Thank you very much, very nice to be back. I'm
doing fine here. Thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Things are well in Sweden, yeah they are.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
We have an unusually warm autumn, but it's happening right now,
so all the leaves are falling and it's kind of
rainy and grizzly.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Is there any concern about Russia and Ukraine up that way, Carl.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean historically it's always been the case,
but the problem now is of course that there's an
actual war on European soil. But yeah, I don't worry
too much because you know, I've been here for a
long time, in almost sixty years, and Russia has always
been like, you know, the big bad wolf in a way.
But of course there is a difference between threats and
(01:11):
actual warfare.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So we'll see, keep our figures crossed and say some prayers.
Tell us more about your background. How did you get
involved in magic in the occult?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Well, I think in any healthy teenager there is this
interest in whatever your parents don't like, right, and whether
it's a weird music or weird art or philosophy. And
I think I was no different. I was probably more hungry, though.
I was like voracious in terms of you know, finding
cool music and finding cool books, and there was still
(01:43):
bookstores around, and you know, you come across these people
like Alister Crowley, the Golden Dawn, Anton LaVey, of course,
you know, and they're you know, controversial in a way,
but basically it's a good philosophy of individual will and
then you have different experts mental ways of empowering yourself.
And I was, early on, you know, quite taken by that,
(02:07):
very interested. More so than just trying it out. I
realized that this really resonates with me. And then when
I got slightly older, you know, my late teens, I
started networking, writing letters, having my fanzines and and just
seeing who's out there, who's willing to respond, And there
was really like, you know, the magical cave opened to
(02:32):
me early on, and I've been on that magical path
since then.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Good for you. Have you had special teachers helping you
along the way.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yeah, I would say so. And you know you have
to take into consideration that it's not like going to
Harry Potter school, you know, Hogwarts sing class. It's more
more intuitive. But of course people who have experience, i
mean literally experienced from these experimental techniques and you know,
working with their own will finding meaning they can teach
(03:04):
you in different ways. You know, they may have written
books and you can read it and talk about it.
But there's also a lot of stuff going on, usually
in between the lines, like with you you hang out
with someone like I did with Anton LaVey, for instance,
and a lot of it is going on in between
the lines, like little nudges or recommendations for movies and
(03:26):
books and you know, just trying out that resonance that
can come up with between two people and a la.
LaVey was very good with that in the sense that
he could have said, now you do this, and now
you do that, but in a way he had already
done that through his books, So I think the people
he let into his black house at the time, he
(03:48):
was more interested in hanging out with them, and I
was fortunate to be one of those people. And I
did learn a lot, and I did learn a lot
of magical stuff from him and from other people. But
it's very rarely in this sort of didactic sense, you know,
you know, step one, do this, step two, do this.
It's much more versatile, much more intuitive, and kind of
(04:12):
hard to describe, but it does fill you with energy
and empowerment that you can feel definitely comes from those
specific directions.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I'll get into Anton Levey in just a second with you.
Did your parents encourage you to do this?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Well, encourage maybe a strong word, but they were kind
of weird those too. My father had ran a jazz
club in Stockholm that was world famous called the Golden Circle,
and like, for instance, my cradle, just when I was born,
was bought for me by the jazz musician Ornette Coleman,
(04:50):
you know, and at the time, growing up, I thought, oh,
that's a weird, awkward whatever, But then I check out
whatever he's done, and it's just amazing music. And you
know what they say, the hand that rocks the cradle, right,
you know, so Ornette Coleman brought me my cradle. I
met a lot of weird jazz people. My mother was
very much into art, and both of them had been
in the States in the late fifties as teenagers, you know,
(05:13):
studying or checking out the jazz scene in New York.
And I found an old clip from the Village Voice
of All magazines in which my mother had been interviewed
talking about Crawley, and this made no sense, you know.
I found that out much much later on in life
when I was an adult. But I do believe that
(05:34):
they were special. They were weird, but they never sort
of influenced me in that way. They were more like,
you know, dreamers in their own right, taking solace with
you know, jazz music and art. And I was kind
of let alone to explore these things on my own,
and therefore I found my own path in a way.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
How did you come into contact with the English singer
Jennie orange Well.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Genesis p Orrich was part of many things like performance art,
experimental art in the seventies, and then there was this
musical experimental project called Throbbing Gristle that I really loved,
and then that turned into another band called Psychic TV.
And Psychic TV went further than having just a musical
(06:25):
experimental band in a way or group. They also had
a concrete magical order, meaning an association, a group where
people could get together an experiment with ritual magic, occult studies.
And it didn't require that you weren't in London. You
could do this by newsletters, networking, sending things back and forth.
(06:48):
And that really turned me on. It was fantastic because
they did something that hadn't really been done before. They
had modernized magic, you know, taking it away from the
nineteen century romantic notion of you know, Crowley and the
Golden Dawn. They were weaving in modern art and creative
processes in this kind of magical hat in a way,
(07:11):
and I found that very, very stimulating. So I became
friends with Genesis and we remained friends up until Agent's
death in twenty twenty, and we worked on many things,
you know, magical things, but also three made three albums
and a couple of books and a documentary film. So
it was yeah, lifelong, very important teacher and friend for me.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
She had a very strange looking teeth too, Carl, did.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
She Yeah, absolutely all gold. I don't really know why.
Maybe the original teeth weren't in that good of shape,
or it was part of, you know, an art project
or part of the magic. You know, you can never
really tell, because people do weird things, especially artists and
maybe especially magician artists too. That in a way could
(08:00):
be you know, making virtues out of necessities, meaning, oh,
I have to fix my teeth, I might as well,
you know, turn me into gold, like some kind of alchemy.
But Jen was very fanciful, very creative, very much I
would say, a magician's magician. And you referred to to
Jen as she. That was a later preference from him her.
(08:23):
I got to know Jen when Jen was still was
still a man in that sense, so I've just stuck
with the he and that was fine too. But this
kind of malleability is indicative of the kind of magic
that I have been taught in, educated in, so that
nothing is really fixed. Reality is malleable, and we can
(08:44):
do many, many things that are super creative and yeah,
kind of mind blowing, transcendent, transcendental if you have that
approach rather than looking at life as a causal you know,
a here, be there. You go from A to be
and you can expect a trajectory, you can expect a result.
(09:04):
But if you instead put C in between A and
B and you know, make it a little bit topsy turvy,
very interesting things can happen.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Was Jen more of an a cultist than anything else?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
I would say that Jen was more of an artist
than anything else. But from very early on in Jen's
artistic development and also career, magic was always there. Occultism
was always there as one technique or one set of
techniques that allowed for people to transform themselves. That was
(09:41):
very very clearly manifested in the performance art of the
nineteen seventies. Was also there in the Throbbing Gristle Project,
definitely there in the thematically occult Psychic TV and Temple
of Psychic Youth as it was called, and also later
on it was basically art. The structure was art, that
(10:02):
the idea was art, but it was always imbued with
this I would call occult or esoteric or magical transformative
energy that affected all of the art.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
So go back to Anton Levy for a moment. If
we can't Carl now, a lot of people considered him
to be a Satanist. Did he try to influence you
that way?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yeah, I think, But then it was already too late,
you know, because I had read his book The Satanic Bible,
and you know, another full up book called the Satanic
Rituals already in the mid nineteen eighties, so I knew
that stuff before we actually met and before we came
into contact. So I think I was already I wouldn't
say a believer, but I certainly resonated with his take
(10:48):
on magic. You know, he called it Satanism based on
the stuff that resonated with him. He was very much
a contrarian. He liked to oppose the norms of of
you know, common culture in a way not for its
own sake, but because that made him feel empowered. And
of course, the original symbol in our culture, which is
(11:11):
basically you know, Judeo Christian is of course, you know,
the fallen Angel and Satan. So for him, Satan is
a symbol more than anything else, that takes on these
qualities of opposing what's inert, of opposing what's not really healthy,
of putting the finger on the bare nerve where the
(11:34):
nerve has been bared by the fact that maybe the
organism isn't working so well. So I think there's always
that element. The way I look at it after, you know,
having known him and read all of his stuff, it's
almost like his kind of Satanism is like an immune
defense system. Something pops up and says, hey, there's something
(11:55):
wrong here. And of course some energies in the body
might not like to hear that because they're happy where
they are. But for the totality to be healthy, there
needs to be that agent or agency that sort of
sounds the alarm in a way. And that's very much
how I look at it. So he didn't sit with me,
(12:16):
or I didn't sit with him, and he was saying,
you know, you have to believe in Satan, and this
is Satan ladda da. It was obvious from beginning that
it's a symbol and what can be defined according to
him and also his organization, the Church of Satan, is
basically something that is so uniquely individual to you that
(12:37):
becomes the Satanic because it goes usually against what people
usually like, is like individual versus collective in a way,
and it doesn't need to be a clinch, it doesn't
need to be a fight, it doesn't need to be
too strong. A contrast, most people that I know who
(12:59):
are loving and Satanists, they're just very happy to be
on their own, in their own world, build their own
perfect little paradise based on things that resonate with them,
and that in itself, when you're conscious about that construction
of a time and space that you really love, that
becomes satanic because it's not something that most people do.
(13:22):
Most people are, I would say, unfortunately, too prone to
just swallow without chewing, you know, to accept what's being
fed to them. And I believe that, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Sorry, what do you think happened to Anton Labay to
make him become a Satanist?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I think he found out early on that there was
power and being the outsider, you know some people are.
He said that Satanists are born, not made. You know
what does that mean? Well, I think some people are
born and grow up feeling that they're different, and some
people become deep rest because of that and say, oh,
(14:01):
I can't deal with this, you know, I'm the odd one.
Maybe they get bullied, whatever, But there's also a lot
of power in being the one outside because then you
can look in and see what the other people are
doing and find you know, faults with that. And I
think that he was an odd kid. He wasn't part
of you know, a gang or a crowd. He was
(14:24):
a solitary little kid who liked to read science fiction
and you know, be in his own world. And I
think most what do you call it, like prodigal prodigal
kids are like that. They're left to their own devices,
they develop on their own terms, and they find things
that they resonate with and then you know, you don't
have to be or call yourself a Satanist to do that,
(14:47):
of course, but he, I think, found being interested in
the occult early on, found that there's power in this
strong symbol, especially within that culture. The symbol of Satan
is still powerful, and I think he found that and
he ran with it, and he made a career out
of it too.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Did he ever talk about God to you?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
No, not to me, But I have, you know, since
I also wrote a book about him and made a
documentary film about him much later on, I found some
very interesting video interviews from the heyday, you know, from
the seventies and stuff, where he someone asks him, you know,
what are you anti Christian? And he replied very wisely,
(15:32):
I think that he was un Christian, you know, meaning
not anti Christian being because basically, according to his Satanic philosophy,
people can believe whatever they want to. That's fine as
long as you don't try to push it down someone
else's throat. Right, So there's tolerance there and you know,
keep your distance, you know, mind your own business. That's
(15:54):
beautiful qualities. But so for him, he was an Christian
in the sense that he did not resonate with the
value systems of the Judea, of Christian philosophy or religion.
But that didn't mean that he was opposed to anyone
being those people as long as they left him alone.
(16:15):
But then, of course, what do you do. You know,
when you call yourself a Satanist and you write the
Satanic Bible and you have satanis the key symbol. Of course,
that's like you know, putting your hand in the hornet's nest.
In a way, there will be very many angry Christians
and other people who find it, you know, despicable, and
you know, become aggressive.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
And la daa.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
So of course you know that. But the power there
lies in the confrontation. The power there lies in the provocation,
but I would say he was not against Christianity. He
accepted it as what it is. It is the world
religion affecting many people, and I'm also affecting many people
in a good way. I'd say, I've met, you know,
some genuine Christians whose lives are filled with meaning because
(17:01):
of their religion. So it's never about going anti, you know,
saying this has to stop. Whatever, it's just being un
Christian like you can be, you know, root for one
team in soccer or American football but not another.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at
one am Eastern and go to Coast to coastam dot
com for more
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.
Carl Abramson back with us a Swedish author who has
written more than twenty books, many of which deal with
magic and the occult. His research has led him to
come in contact with and become friends with many who
study who have studied the occult as well. One of
his latest books, Meetings with Remarkable Magicians Life in the
(00:26):
Occult Underworld. Carl, welcome back. How have you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Thank you very much, very nice to be back. I'm
doing fine here. Thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Things are well in Sweden, yeah they are.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
We have an unusually warm autumn, but it's happening right now,
so all the leaves are falling and it's kind of
rainy and grizzly.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Is there any concern about Russia and Ukraine up that way, Carl.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean historically it's always been the case,
but the problem now is of course that there's an
actual war on European soil. But yeah, I don't worry
too much because you know, I've been here for a
long time, in almost sixty years, and Russia has always
been like, you know, the big bad wolf in a way.
But of course there is a difference between threats and
(01:11):
actual warfare.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So we'll see, keep our figures crossed and say some prayers.
Tell us more about your background. How did you get
involved in magic in the occult?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Well, I think in any healthy teenager there is this
interest in whatever your parents don't like, right, and whether
it's a weird music or weird art or philosophy. And
I think I was no different. I was probably more hungry, though.
I was like voracious in terms of you know, finding
cool music and finding cool books, and there was still
(01:43):
bookstores around, and you know, you come across these people
like Alister Crowley, the Golden Dawn, Anton LaVey, of course,
you know, and they're you know, controversial in a way,
but basically it's a good philosophy of individual will and
then you have different experts mental ways of empowering yourself.
And I was, early on, you know, quite taken by that,
(02:07):
very interested. More so than just trying it out. I
realized that this really resonates with me. And then when
I got slightly older, you know, my late teens, I
started networking, writing letters, having my fanzines and and just
seeing who's out there, who's willing to respond, And there
was really like, you know, the magical cave opened to
(02:32):
me early on, and I've been on that magical path
since then.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Good for you. Have you had special teachers helping you
along the way.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yeah, I would say so. And you know you have
to take into consideration that it's not like going to
Harry Potter school, you know, Hogwarts sing class. It's more
more intuitive. But of course people who have experience, i
mean literally experienced from these experimental techniques and you know,
working with their own will finding meaning they can teach
(03:04):
you in different ways. You know, they may have written
books and you can read it and talk about it.
But there's also a lot of stuff going on, usually
in between the lines, like with you you hang out
with someone like I did with Anton LaVey, for instance,
and a lot of it is going on in between
the lines, like little nudges or recommendations for movies and
(03:26):
books and you know, just trying out that resonance that
can come up with between two people and a la.
LaVey was very good with that in the sense that
he could have said, now you do this, and now
you do that, but in a way he had already
done that through his books, So I think the people
he let into his black house at the time, he
(03:48):
was more interested in hanging out with them, and I
was fortunate to be one of those people. And I
did learn a lot, and I did learn a lot
of magical stuff from him and from other people. But
it's very rarely in this sort of didactic sense, you know,
you know, step one, do this, step two, do this.
It's much more versatile, much more intuitive, and kind of
(04:12):
hard to describe, but it does fill you with energy
and empowerment that you can feel definitely comes from those
specific directions.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I'll get into Anton Levey in just a second with you.
Did your parents encourage you to do this?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Well, encourage maybe a strong word, but they were kind
of weird those too. My father had ran a jazz
club in Stockholm that was world famous called the Golden Circle,
and like, for instance, my cradle, just when I was born,
was bought for me by the jazz musician Ornette Coleman,
(04:50):
you know, and at the time, growing up, I thought, oh,
that's a weird, awkward whatever, But then I check out
whatever he's done, and it's just amazing music. And you
know what they say, the hand that rocks the cradle, right,
you know, so Ornette Coleman brought me my cradle. I
met a lot of weird jazz people. My mother was
very much into art, and both of them had been
in the States in the late fifties as teenagers, you know,
(05:13):
studying or checking out the jazz scene in New York.
And I found an old clip from the Village Voice
of All magazines in which my mother had been interviewed
talking about Crawley, and this made no sense, you know.
I found that out much much later on in life
when I was an adult. But I do believe that
(05:34):
they were special. They were weird, but they never sort
of influenced me in that way. They were more like,
you know, dreamers in their own right, taking solace with
you know, jazz music and art. And I was kind
of let alone to explore these things on my own,
and therefore I found my own path in a way.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
How did you come into contact with the English singer
Jennie orange Well.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Genesis p Orrich was part of many things like performance art,
experimental art in the seventies, and then there was this
musical experimental project called Throbbing Gristle that I really loved,
and then that turned into another band called Psychic TV.
And Psychic TV went further than having just a musical
(06:25):
experimental band in a way or group. They also had
a concrete magical order, meaning an association, a group where
people could get together an experiment with ritual magic, occult studies.
And it didn't require that you weren't in London. You
could do this by newsletters, networking, sending things back and forth.
(06:48):
And that really turned me on. It was fantastic because
they did something that hadn't really been done before. They
had modernized magic, you know, taking it away from the
nineteen century romantic notion of you know, Crowley and the
Golden Dawn. They were weaving in modern art and creative
processes in this kind of magical hat in a way,
(07:11):
and I found that very, very stimulating. So I became
friends with Genesis and we remained friends up until Agent's
death in twenty twenty, and we worked on many things,
you know, magical things, but also three made three albums
and a couple of books and a documentary film. So
it was yeah, lifelong, very important teacher and friend for me.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
She had a very strange looking teeth too, Carl, did.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
She Yeah, absolutely all gold. I don't really know why.
Maybe the original teeth weren't in that good of shape,
or it was part of, you know, an art project
or part of the magic. You know, you can never
really tell, because people do weird things, especially artists and
maybe especially magician artists too. That in a way could
(08:00):
be you know, making virtues out of necessities, meaning, oh,
I have to fix my teeth, I might as well,
you know, turn me into gold, like some kind of alchemy.
But Jen was very fanciful, very creative, very much I
would say, a magician's magician. And you referred to to
Jen as she. That was a later preference from him her.
(08:23):
I got to know Jen when Jen was still was
still a man in that sense, so I've just stuck
with the he and that was fine too. But this
kind of malleability is indicative of the kind of magic
that I have been taught in, educated in, so that
nothing is really fixed. Reality is malleable, and we can
(08:44):
do many, many things that are super creative and yeah,
kind of mind blowing, transcendent, transcendental if you have that
approach rather than looking at life as a causal you know,
a here, be there. You go from A to be
and you can expect a trajectory, you can expect a result.
(09:04):
But if you instead put C in between A and
B and you know, make it a little bit topsy turvy,
very interesting things can happen.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Was Jen more of an a cultist than anything else?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
I would say that Jen was more of an artist
than anything else. But from very early on in Jen's
artistic development and also career, magic was always there. Occultism
was always there as one technique or one set of
techniques that allowed for people to transform themselves. That was
(09:41):
very very clearly manifested in the performance art of the
nineteen seventies. Was also there in the Throbbing Gristle Project,
definitely there in the thematically occult Psychic TV and Temple
of Psychic Youth as it was called, and also later
on it was basically art. The structure was art, that
(10:02):
the idea was art, but it was always imbued with
this I would call occult or esoteric or magical transformative
energy that affected all of the art.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
So go back to Anton Levy for a moment. If
we can't Carl now, a lot of people considered him
to be a Satanist. Did he try to influence you
that way?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yeah, I think, But then it was already too late,
you know, because I had read his book The Satanic Bible,
and you know, another full up book called the Satanic
Rituals already in the mid nineteen eighties, so I knew
that stuff before we actually met and before we came
into contact. So I think I was already I wouldn't
say a believer, but I certainly resonated with his take
(10:48):
on magic. You know, he called it Satanism based on
the stuff that resonated with him. He was very much
a contrarian. He liked to oppose the norms of of
you know, common culture in a way not for its
own sake, but because that made him feel empowered. And
of course, the original symbol in our culture, which is
(11:11):
basically you know, Judeo Christian is of course, you know,
the fallen Angel and Satan. So for him, Satan is
a symbol more than anything else, that takes on these
qualities of opposing what's inert, of opposing what's not really healthy,
of putting the finger on the bare nerve where the
(11:34):
nerve has been bared by the fact that maybe the
organism isn't working so well. So I think there's always
that element. The way I look at it after, you know,
having known him and read all of his stuff, it's
almost like his kind of Satanism is like an immune
defense system. Something pops up and says, hey, there's something
(11:55):
wrong here. And of course some energies in the body
might not like to hear that because they're happy where
they are. But for the totality to be healthy, there
needs to be that agent or agency that sort of
sounds the alarm in a way. And that's very much
how I look at it. So he didn't sit with me,
(12:16):
or I didn't sit with him, and he was saying,
you know, you have to believe in Satan, and this
is Satan ladda da. It was obvious from beginning that
it's a symbol and what can be defined according to
him and also his organization, the Church of Satan, is
basically something that is so uniquely individual to you that
(12:37):
becomes the Satanic because it goes usually against what people
usually like, is like individual versus collective in a way,
and it doesn't need to be a clinch, it doesn't
need to be a fight, it doesn't need to be
too strong. A contrast, most people that I know who
(12:59):
are loving and Satanists, they're just very happy to be
on their own, in their own world, build their own
perfect little paradise based on things that resonate with them,
and that in itself, when you're conscious about that construction
of a time and space that you really love, that
becomes satanic because it's not something that most people do.
(13:22):
Most people are, I would say, unfortunately, too prone to
just swallow without chewing, you know, to accept what's being
fed to them. And I believe that, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Sorry, what do you think happened to Anton Labay to
make him become a Satanist?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I think he found out early on that there was
power and being the outsider, you know some people are.
He said that Satanists are born, not made. You know
what does that mean? Well, I think some people are
born and grow up feeling that they're different, and some
people become deep rest because of that and say, oh,
(14:01):
I can't deal with this, you know, I'm the odd one.
Maybe they get bullied, whatever, But there's also a lot
of power in being the one outside because then you
can look in and see what the other people are
doing and find you know, faults with that. And I
think that he was an odd kid. He wasn't part
of you know, a gang or a crowd. He was
(14:24):
a solitary little kid who liked to read science fiction
and you know, be in his own world. And I
think most what do you call it, like prodigal prodigal
kids are like that. They're left to their own devices,
they develop on their own terms, and they find things
that they resonate with and then you know, you don't
have to be or call yourself a Satanist to do that,
(14:47):
of course, but he, I think, found being interested in
the occult early on, found that there's power in this
strong symbol, especially within that culture. The symbol of Satan
is still powerful, and I think he found that and
he ran with it, and he made a career out
of it too.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Did he ever talk about God to you?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
No, not to me, But I have, you know, since
I also wrote a book about him and made a
documentary film about him much later on, I found some
very interesting video interviews from the heyday, you know, from
the seventies and stuff, where he someone asks him, you know,
what are you anti Christian? And he replied very wisely,
(15:32):
I think that he was un Christian, you know, meaning
not anti Christian being because basically, according to his Satanic philosophy,
people can believe whatever they want to. That's fine as
long as you don't try to push it down someone
else's throat. Right, So there's tolerance there and you know,
keep your distance, you know, mind your own business. That's
(15:54):
beautiful qualities. But so for him, he was an Christian
in the sense that he did not resonate with the
value systems of the Judea, of Christian philosophy or religion.
But that didn't mean that he was opposed to anyone
being those people as long as they left him alone.
(16:15):
But then, of course, what do you do. You know,
when you call yourself a Satanist and you write the
Satanic Bible and you have satanis the key symbol. Of course,
that's like you know, putting your hand in the hornet's nest.
In a way, there will be very many angry Christians
and other people who find it, you know, despicable, and
you know, become aggressive.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
And la daa.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
So of course you know that. But the power there
lies in the confrontation. The power there lies in the provocation,
but I would say he was not against Christianity. He
accepted it as what it is. It is the world
religion affecting many people, and I'm also affecting many people
in a good way. I'd say, I've met, you know,
some genuine Christians whose lives are filled with meaning because
(17:01):
of their religion. So it's never about going anti, you know,
saying this has to stop. Whatever, it's just being un
Christian like you can be, you know, root for one
team in soccer or American football but not another.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at
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