June 18, 2025 • 13 mins
George Noory and professor Paul DeBole discuss the necessary conditions to produce a modern-day Salem Witch Trial.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Salem witch Trial. Let's talk about the possibilities of
something like that happening. What kind of panic would be
needed to create that kind of an episode, Paul.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I think we can.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
All that is really required is that you know, there
are frightened people out there, and sometimes they're frightened due
to lack of information. Sometimes there are other causes for that.
And if you look at our government structure, for example, okay,
House of Representatives members are elected to a two year
the entire House is elected to a two year term,
(00:43):
and they are designed to represent the interests of their people.
I can envision some type of statutory scheme designed to
address a problem that could sail through the House very
very quickly. Again, you know, members of the House are
directly responsible to the people that elected them. They're always
(01:04):
standing for reelection. The old joke is when does your
re election campaign begin? All the day after you first
get elected? So you know, so you know, we have
that structurally build into our system. And then we have
and then we have the Senate and again originally an
appointed body, uh and or you know, individual states appointed
(01:25):
senators in different ways. They served for a six year term,
and it was designed for them to kind of slow
things down. But you know, it's you know, years ago
in Massachusetts we had a we had a k and
and and the reason why it stands out in my
mind is that it was it was labeled a which
(01:47):
it was labeled a witch hunt, and it really wasn't.
I think sometimes people use that as a way to
deflect attention to issues that should be addressed, either legislatively
or judicially. And and and that's the problem. And again,
so all we need is a sizable portion of the population,
(02:09):
or at least a sizeable vocal portion of the population
that is that is overly concerned with something and can
exert political pressure for some type of statutory scheme to
be an acted. And again, it's incumbent upon government to
to to weigh these competing interests, to to to protect
the accused, because we certainly don't want people who are,
you know, not guilty of a crime to be accused
(02:33):
and subjected to legal penalties. And I just kind of
want to just go just backtrack for a second, George,
if I might, uh, one of the one of the
practices at the time. That led to some of these
convictions was the introduction of what's called spectral evidence. And
it's not a term that's that's really common. You have
to delve back into the historical record to figure out
(02:55):
what it is. Now we have a prohibition in trials
now for hearsay evidence, right, you know, out of court
statements that are used to prove the facts that are asserted.
What spectral evidence was is someone's testifying as to a
dream that they had where either an evil spirit or
the devil or whoever else basically told them that someone
(03:18):
was a witch. And that was introduced me to testimony.
Think about that for a second. Think about the potential
for abuse if you're if you're not testifying as to
what the actual facts are that you saw that you saw,
but but based on a dream that you may have had,
and I think that has to be frightening and.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Your nails sovity for that you sure can. Was this
a bad blemish on American history?
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Of course it was? Okay, But I mean one of
the things that at least in my opinion, is uniquely
American is we try not to make the same mistakes twice. Okay,
So you know, we had this horrible crisis. Government empowered
certain people. They took their role seriously. They looked at it,
(04:12):
and when it turned out to be a bad idea
or prone to abuse, they enacted protections that are designed
to prevent that in the future. You know, it was
kind of I don't want to say funny, but it was.
It was odd. Back post September eleventh, two thousand and one,
there were a lot of people in government and out
of government that were demanding that, most of them Americans,
(04:35):
be arrested and interned. And you know, there were some
very brave people that said, well, no, no, not too fast.
We tried that during World War Two with Japanese Americans.
It was a bad idea in nineteen forty one. It's
a bad idea now, and we're not going to do that.
So we have this uniquely American pension for self examination
(04:56):
and a desire not to make the same mistakes twice.
I mean, we're gonna make new mistakes all the time.
That's that's that's part of the evolutionary process of government.
But at the very very least we can we can
look at something it was a blemish and we're not
going to do that we're going to try not to
do that again.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Truly remarkable, is it not, Paul?
Speaker 3 (05:17):
It is? And it you know, I'm I think I
think the thing that I find disturbing is the zeal
with which people advocated, you know, for these prosecutions, and
really the best way to prevent that is through education.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Did it go away as quickly as it came in?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
I think there were there was still some some rumblings
as we went into the late sixteen nineties, you know,
post sixteen ninety post sixteen ninety three. But again the
legislature repealed that conjuration statute in the fall of sixteen
ninety five, and then it just kind of there was
some rumblings in it, and it and the whole movement
(06:03):
died a graceful death that goodness.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Did the devil name come up much?
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Uh, well, there was a there was a general prohibition
against using that name. They would refer to them as
the evil one or or or just this nebulous evil spirits.
But I mean, there was a there was a palpable
(06:30):
belief that these accused were off doing the devil's work.
And that's and and and I think that frightened people.
But we can, you know, but we can see that
right now. I mean, you know, the whole UFO controversy. Okay,
are they those out there? Yeah? I think so. Okay.
(06:50):
I mean the Director of National Intelligence, starting in twenty
twenty has published an annual report talking about unidentified aerial
phenomenon that they just and explain. Okay, are people frightened?
Our people concerned? Why is the government, you know, suppressing
that information because it puts the whole government structure at risk.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Paul Devoli with us as we talk about the Salem
witch trial and how it could affect all of us
these days. I mean, it's like there's a communist under
every table.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Absolutely absolutely, And you know it's even though they were
protections at the time. Sometimes I'm overly critical of legislative bodies,
whether their state or federal and and and and I
think that's somewhat unfair. But what we do is we
have legislators with the best of all intentions, you know,
(07:46):
proposing and and and voting you know, these legislative measures
into effect. But then there's no Then they move on
to the next legislative task or the next legislative chal
and they don't necessarily look at the laws that they've
already passed and answer the question whether those laws should
(08:10):
still be in effect. For example, in Massachusetts, we have
a statute that makes membership in a subversive organization illegal,
and then it labels the American Communist Party as a
subversive organization. The law is still on the books. Do
you think time might have come to maybe go back
and look at some of these things? And we still
(08:31):
have in Massachusetts, we still have an anti blasphemy statute
and and and I think and I think that's part
of the legislative duty. Yes, they have to go out
there in legislation, but there's also this inherent oversight function. Okay,
And sometimes they're they're they're looking over the shoulder of
the executive branch. Sometimes they're looking at laws that they've
(08:52):
already passed and said, wow, is this is this a
good idea? Should this laws still be on the books?
What would be the consequences of outmoded legislation and still
being on the books, And how can that be? And
what's the potential for abuse?
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Did the witchcraft law really go away?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
It did? I mean, it was repealed. We don't have
any new witchcraft law, although we have a fortune teller
licensing statute here in Massachusetts. I can't imagine what the
road test for that is like, but I mean, I
think there is. I think I think legislatures are out
there trying to protect people, and they and they do
(09:31):
generally try to do the best job that they can.
But conditions change, and what might have been ripe for
a legislative provision thirty forty fifty years ago may not
be ripe right now, and I think I think legislatures
should be more proactive in examining these statutes.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Well, tell us a little bit about your book, Conspiracy
one on one.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
So the book is modeled after the course that I
teach every spring called the Conspiracy from Politics, and we
start off at the at the Salem witch Trials, which
is the first genuine American conspiracy, and then we move
into other topics, the plot to kidnap Abraham Lincoln, which
(10:13):
was the forerunner of Booth's assassination attempt. One of the
things that we look at is the historical evidence that
indicates that Booth might might may not have been killed
on April twenty sixth, eighteen sixty five at Garrett's from
him and went on to live the rest of his
life in the Western United States, finally dying nineteen In
nineteen oh two, we look at the Saco and Vanzetti trial,
(10:38):
which was a criminal trial in Massachusetts where two Italian
anarchist immigrants were convicted of a crime, even though they
were convicted of murder and robbing a paymaster of a
brain Tree shoe factory, and despite the fact that there
was exculpatory evidence indicating that they were fifty miles away
(11:02):
when the murder occurred. And then we move into the
JFK assassination and governments and government's role in controlling and
managing the message. We go into RFK, and quite frankly,
I don't believe that Sirhans er Hun fired the shot
that killed Bobby Kennedy. They never recovered the bullet from
(11:22):
Bobby Kennedy's head. I don't know how you can get
a conviction without that, at least, at least beyond a
recentable doubt. And then we look at Watergate, Iran Contra,
and a couple of other conspiracies that really focuses on
the way government responds responds to accusations are wrongdoing.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Generally, if there's a conspiracy. Eventually it's proven that it's real.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Well, you have to look at the nature of the conspiracy.
So number one, we usually have some horrible criminal act,
whether it's the assassination of Lincoln or the Saco and
Van City trial, we have this program, this regimen of
trying to insulate government, or at least government officials, from
(12:08):
any wrongdoing. Because once people don't have faith in government,
the whole notion of consent to be governed kind of
falls apart. So you really have to be wary of that.
One of the going back to John Wilkes Booth for example,
if you look at the way the body was identified,
(12:30):
in the way that the government control the body and
control the message, you know, after that time you kind
of sit back and shake your head, saying, if there
wasn't some type of underlying conspiracy to suppress the truth,
why go through all of these crazy, bizarre condorses. They
actually hid John Wilkes Booth's body for almost two years
(12:55):
after he was allegedly killed, and did not release it
to his family for proper burial. They kept it buried
under some stones under a stone floor in the DC.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Homily sure he decomposed.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Uh oh, I'm sure, I'm sure. Well, you know, I
don't know what the I don't know what the what
the embalming methods were back then. I have to assume
that there was some that there was a fair amount
of decomposition. But why would you hide the body other
than to conceal the fact that you may not have
the right guy.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Listen to more Coast to Coast a m every weeknight
at one a m. Eastern, and go to Coast to
coastam dot com for more
Now here's a highlight from coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The Salem witch Trial. Let's talk about the possibilities of
something like that happening. What kind of panic would be
needed to create that kind of an episode, Paul.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I think we can.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
All that is really required is that you know, there
are frightened people out there, and sometimes they're frightened due
to lack of information. Sometimes there are other causes for that.
And if you look at our government structure, for example, okay,
House of Representatives members are elected to a two year
the entire House is elected to a two year term,
(00:43):
and they are designed to represent the interests of their people.
I can envision some type of statutory scheme designed to
address a problem that could sail through the House very
very quickly. Again, you know, members of the House are
directly responsible to the people that elected them. They're always
(01:04):
standing for reelection. The old joke is when does your
re election campaign begin? All the day after you first
get elected? So you know, so you know, we have
that structurally build into our system. And then we have
and then we have the Senate and again originally an
appointed body, uh and or you know, individual states appointed
(01:25):
senators in different ways. They served for a six year term,
and it was designed for them to kind of slow
things down. But you know, it's you know, years ago
in Massachusetts we had a we had a k and
and and the reason why it stands out in my
mind is that it was it was labeled a which
(01:47):
it was labeled a witch hunt, and it really wasn't.
I think sometimes people use that as a way to
deflect attention to issues that should be addressed, either legislatively
or judicially. And and and that's the problem. And again,
so all we need is a sizable portion of the population,
(02:09):
or at least a sizeable vocal portion of the population
that is that is overly concerned with something and can
exert political pressure for some type of statutory scheme to
be an acted. And again, it's incumbent upon government to
to to weigh these competing interests, to to to protect
the accused, because we certainly don't want people who are,
you know, not guilty of a crime to be accused
(02:33):
and subjected to legal penalties. And I just kind of
want to just go just backtrack for a second, George,
if I might, uh, one of the one of the
practices at the time. That led to some of these
convictions was the introduction of what's called spectral evidence. And
it's not a term that's that's really common. You have
to delve back into the historical record to figure out
(02:55):
what it is. Now we have a prohibition in trials
now for hearsay evidence, right, you know, out of court
statements that are used to prove the facts that are asserted.
What spectral evidence was is someone's testifying as to a
dream that they had where either an evil spirit or
the devil or whoever else basically told them that someone
(03:18):
was a witch. And that was introduced me to testimony.
Think about that for a second. Think about the potential
for abuse if you're if you're not testifying as to
what the actual facts are that you saw that you saw,
but but based on a dream that you may have had,
and I think that has to be frightening and.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Your nails sovity for that you sure can. Was this
a bad blemish on American history?
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Of course it was? Okay, But I mean one of
the things that at least in my opinion, is uniquely
American is we try not to make the same mistakes twice. Okay,
So you know, we had this horrible crisis. Government empowered
certain people. They took their role seriously. They looked at it,
(04:12):
and when it turned out to be a bad idea
or prone to abuse, they enacted protections that are designed
to prevent that in the future. You know, it was
kind of I don't want to say funny, but it was.
It was odd. Back post September eleventh, two thousand and one,
there were a lot of people in government and out
of government that were demanding that, most of them Americans,
(04:35):
be arrested and interned. And you know, there were some
very brave people that said, well, no, no, not too fast.
We tried that during World War Two with Japanese Americans.
It was a bad idea in nineteen forty one. It's
a bad idea now, and we're not going to do that.
So we have this uniquely American pension for self examination
(04:56):
and a desire not to make the same mistakes twice.
I mean, we're gonna make new mistakes all the time.
That's that's that's part of the evolutionary process of government.
But at the very very least we can we can
look at something it was a blemish and we're not
going to do that we're going to try not to
do that again.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Truly remarkable, is it not, Paul?
Speaker 3 (05:17):
It is? And it you know, I'm I think I
think the thing that I find disturbing is the zeal
with which people advocated, you know, for these prosecutions, and
really the best way to prevent that is through education.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Did it go away as quickly as it came in?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
I think there were there was still some some rumblings
as we went into the late sixteen nineties, you know,
post sixteen ninety post sixteen ninety three. But again the
legislature repealed that conjuration statute in the fall of sixteen
ninety five, and then it just kind of there was
some rumblings in it, and it and the whole movement
(06:03):
died a graceful death that goodness.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Did the devil name come up much?
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Uh, well, there was a there was a general prohibition
against using that name. They would refer to them as
the evil one or or or just this nebulous evil spirits.
But I mean, there was a there was a palpable
(06:30):
belief that these accused were off doing the devil's work.
And that's and and and I think that frightened people.
But we can, you know, but we can see that
right now. I mean, you know, the whole UFO controversy. Okay,
are they those out there? Yeah? I think so. Okay.
(06:50):
I mean the Director of National Intelligence, starting in twenty
twenty has published an annual report talking about unidentified aerial
phenomenon that they just and explain. Okay, are people frightened?
Our people concerned? Why is the government, you know, suppressing
that information because it puts the whole government structure at risk.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Paul Devoli with us as we talk about the Salem
witch trial and how it could affect all of us
these days. I mean, it's like there's a communist under
every table.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Absolutely absolutely, And you know it's even though they were
protections at the time. Sometimes I'm overly critical of legislative bodies,
whether their state or federal and and and and I
think that's somewhat unfair. But what we do is we
have legislators with the best of all intentions, you know,
(07:46):
proposing and and and voting you know, these legislative measures
into effect. But then there's no Then they move on
to the next legislative task or the next legislative chal
and they don't necessarily look at the laws that they've
already passed and answer the question whether those laws should
(08:10):
still be in effect. For example, in Massachusetts, we have
a statute that makes membership in a subversive organization illegal,
and then it labels the American Communist Party as a
subversive organization. The law is still on the books. Do
you think time might have come to maybe go back
and look at some of these things? And we still
(08:31):
have in Massachusetts, we still have an anti blasphemy statute
and and and I think and I think that's part
of the legislative duty. Yes, they have to go out
there in legislation, but there's also this inherent oversight function. Okay,
And sometimes they're they're they're looking over the shoulder of
the executive branch. Sometimes they're looking at laws that they've
(08:52):
already passed and said, wow, is this is this a
good idea? Should this laws still be on the books?
What would be the consequences of outmoded legislation and still
being on the books, And how can that be? And
what's the potential for abuse?
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Did the witchcraft law really go away?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
It did? I mean, it was repealed. We don't have
any new witchcraft law, although we have a fortune teller
licensing statute here in Massachusetts. I can't imagine what the
road test for that is like, but I mean, I
think there is. I think I think legislatures are out
there trying to protect people, and they and they do
(09:31):
generally try to do the best job that they can.
But conditions change, and what might have been ripe for
a legislative provision thirty forty fifty years ago may not
be ripe right now, and I think I think legislatures
should be more proactive in examining these statutes.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Well, tell us a little bit about your book, Conspiracy
one on one.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
So the book is modeled after the course that I
teach every spring called the Conspiracy from Politics, and we
start off at the at the Salem witch Trials, which
is the first genuine American conspiracy, and then we move
into other topics, the plot to kidnap Abraham Lincoln, which
(10:13):
was the forerunner of Booth's assassination attempt. One of the
things that we look at is the historical evidence that
indicates that Booth might might may not have been killed
on April twenty sixth, eighteen sixty five at Garrett's from
him and went on to live the rest of his
life in the Western United States, finally dying nineteen In
nineteen oh two, we look at the Saco and Vanzetti trial,
(10:38):
which was a criminal trial in Massachusetts where two Italian
anarchist immigrants were convicted of a crime, even though they
were convicted of murder and robbing a paymaster of a
brain Tree shoe factory, and despite the fact that there
was exculpatory evidence indicating that they were fifty miles away
(11:02):
when the murder occurred. And then we move into the
JFK assassination and governments and government's role in controlling and
managing the message. We go into RFK, and quite frankly,
I don't believe that Sirhans er Hun fired the shot
that killed Bobby Kennedy. They never recovered the bullet from
(11:22):
Bobby Kennedy's head. I don't know how you can get
a conviction without that, at least, at least beyond a
recentable doubt. And then we look at Watergate, Iran Contra,
and a couple of other conspiracies that really focuses on
the way government responds responds to accusations are wrongdoing.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Generally, if there's a conspiracy. Eventually it's proven that it's real.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Well, you have to look at the nature of the conspiracy.
So number one, we usually have some horrible criminal act,
whether it's the assassination of Lincoln or the Saco and
Van City trial, we have this program, this regimen of
trying to insulate government, or at least government officials, from
(12:08):
any wrongdoing. Because once people don't have faith in government,
the whole notion of consent to be governed kind of
falls apart. So you really have to be wary of that.
One of the going back to John Wilkes Booth for example,
if you look at the way the body was identified,
(12:30):
in the way that the government control the body and
control the message, you know, after that time you kind
of sit back and shake your head, saying, if there
wasn't some type of underlying conspiracy to suppress the truth,
why go through all of these crazy, bizarre condorses. They
actually hid John Wilkes Booth's body for almost two years
(12:55):
after he was allegedly killed, and did not release it
to his family for proper burial. They kept it buried
under some stones under a stone floor in the DC.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Homily sure he decomposed.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Uh oh, I'm sure, I'm sure. Well, you know, I
don't know what the I don't know what the what
the embalming methods were back then. I have to assume
that there was some that there was a fair amount
of decomposition. But why would you hide the body other
than to conceal the fact that you may not have
the right guy.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Listen to more Coast to Coast a m every weeknight
at one a m. Eastern, and go to Coast to
coastam dot com for more
The Best of Coast to Coast AM News
Host
George Noory
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