October 12, 2025 • 26 mins
Hear part 2 of Amy and T.J.’s fascinating conversation with singer songwriter Jewel about where she is now in her life, how she’s overcome her own mental health struggles and what she’s doing to help others. Jewel gets personal, sharing how she copes with constant panic attacks and how she’s ending the generational trauma she inherited.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back everyone to this edition of Amy and PJ.
This is part two of our conversation with four time
Grammy nominee Jewel.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
You talked earlier about liking to be alone, right, and
that was helpful for you. But then you have something
called the not Alone Challenge. Now help us bridge that
divide if you will, but no, explain. This started several
years ago and it's grown to the point now you
have an award show coming out. But how did it
start in the first place.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Yeah, and it's a great distinction. You know, being alone
is different than loneliness. You can feel lonely around people.
You can be alone and feel deeply connected. It's a
very personal thing. But I really you know, we've seen
the stats on mental health are really dismal. One in
four kids are contemplating taking their life, and it's not
(00:50):
much better for adults in all honesty, and so we're
really living through an epidemic of disconnection. And we forgot
how to connect to ourselves in a meaningful way. You know,
where we enjoy being alone and we like our company,
we've lost how to really connect to one another in
a meaningful way and connections nourishing. It's very it's important
to us. We're a carbon based molecule. We're literally built
(01:12):
to connect. And so the challenge is was actually the
diet idea of our kids. We have a mental health
foundation and we've been doing it for twenty five years
and it was one of their idea to do a
social media challenge, and it's just been wildly successful. We've
gotten over three billion impressions. It's just been unreal in
four years. And so for me, it's really about not
(01:34):
just raising awareness, but putting tools into people's hands that
are free, giving them resources that they may not know about,
because I think it's mean to raise awareness and then
not help them. That's just because you kind of are
also aware your miserable. It's like, but now what do
I do about it? And then the success was just
so overwhelming that we decided to segue it into a
summit this year and an awards show.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That's incredible and it's interesting hearing you say we've never
been more disconnected, and yet we've never been more connected
technologically speaking, how much do you think that has actually
been a huge disservice. I know you can be empowering
with social media challenges and hashtags. And getting information out there.
(02:18):
Why do you think we're in the state we're in
given the technology we.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Have it, I don't know. Food might be a good metaphor.
You know, you can be full and have a junk
food diet and you're nutritionally starving, and so you want
to look at like what type of calories might and
I'm going to get really nourishing diet and connections like that.
There's vapid entertainment excitatory which a lot of our technology does.
(02:45):
You know, when you scroll through your Instagram or whatever,
it can be sort of this biochemical perk, almost like
it's like a hit that we're kind of also forgetting
what deep, meaningful can feels like it's different than excitement.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Do we have kids growing up who don't have any
idea what that is? I mean, some adults could have
lost it along the way, but we have a whole
generation growing up that they know how to use an
iPad and navigated by the age of two or three.
So their connection has always been that are we losing
in your opinion, and to some degree, a generation of
kids who are coming up and right now have no
(03:24):
idea about what it's like to have a human family
connection on a homestead. We don't have to go to
that extreme, but you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yeah, I think it's an unprecedented time to parent. You know,
I'm a fourteen year old, and so iPads were around
and doing well when I was a young mom. And
seeing my son's personality change when I took the iPad
away when he was four, I was like, Oh, there's
something up, Like, this isn't what I think it is.
This isn't harmless entertainment and learning that they really do
(03:53):
get addicted to their own body chemistry through these excitatory
neurochemicals and we're just not teaching parents about it, you
know what I mean. And you know, learning to have
a calm, open, dilated sense of connection is very different
than being excited and entertained, And so you definitely want
to help your kids not confuse those two things if
(04:14):
you can.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I'm curious as a mom. You know, you said you
wanted to break the cycle that you inherited, that your
father inherited.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
How do you do that?
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I mean, that's that's a heavy task once you've acknowledged
and I mean, I'm a believer that we all all
suffer from some form of mental health issues at sometimes
every point in our lives. But it ebbs and flows.
We're all in the thick of it, and we all
inherit something. How do you how do you break a
cycle like that? How have you done so?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yeah? I think one is just through attention and the
willingness to want to do it and to show up
every day and make that a priority in your life.
When you make your happiness your priority, your life will change.
You know, how fast or how slowly is all up
for debate, but it change for healing, you know, generational trauma.
For me, like something that's really helped me is just
(05:07):
the healing of the parent, is the healing of the child.
You know, my commitment to heal is a gift to
me and it's also a gift to my child. And
then learning to live with the fact that you're not perfect.
You're going to make mistakes in front of your child,
and what you really hope their takeaway is is that
they're going to be growing and healing and learning their
whole life too.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
How is your What do you notice about your son
at the age of fourteen and you think back to
how you were at the age of fourteen, coming up
in a much different place, in a different way, different mindset.
How do you compare those two kids?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Yeah, you know, I became a single mom when I
was forty, I guess. And I was like, how do
you be a single parent and be famous and rich?
Like it's kind of like having two strikes against you as.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
A parent, I think.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
And so I was like, I don't think I could
be famous, rich and live in la I know a
lot of parents do it successful. I just it was
so far from how I was raised. I didn't know
how to do it. I was like, that's three strikes,
Like I don't know how to parents around that one.
That's a tough culture. So for me, it was like
I made a big commitment to move in a tiny town,
to use nature as kind of my co parent the
(06:16):
way it was one for me, and to just have
a specific lifestyle hopefully that could help anchor my son
into a very real experience.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah. I love that concept, to have nature be a
co parent with you. That's pretty cool. I can say
that some of the most meaningful and mindful experiences I've
had with my children were hiking. They had to put
their phones down because there was no cell reception where
we were, and they all of a sudden were connected
(06:47):
to something that Especially raising kids in New York City
has been a difficult situation in a lot of ways
because it was very different from how I was raised,
certainly how TJ. Was raised Georgia, Arkansas we're in you know,
are jungle and so yes, raising kids without access to
the kind of nature that we grew up with is
significant and I never thought about it like that, But
(07:09):
that's pretty cool. We can learn a lot from our surroundings,
maybe not as much in New York City, but maybe
in ways we didn't want our kids to learn.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Is he connected to earth like you were? Would you say?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Yeah, he has a really meaningful connection. So I don't
think it's the same we have such a childhoods but
yeah he has a And you know, nature does it
for you, like if you have a hard time relaxing,
get out in big nature. There's studies on what it
does to your nervous system and helps it dilate and
helps you regulate your nervous system.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Oh my god, you are absolutely appreciing to the choir.
There is something about being Any problem you have suddenly
just doesn't seem insurmountable. True when you're surrounded by nature.
I love that. Now you mentioned raising awareness is one thing.
Giving people tools is actually what is meaningful, in the
sense that we have to give not just our children
(07:58):
but adults too, outlets and ways to figure out how
to get better, how to make happiness a priority. What
are some of those ways that you all are sharing
with people who attend the summit and certainly news of
this awareness.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah, there's so many tools. So I guess just for
anybody listening, you know, if talk therapy hasn't worked for you,
there's CBT, there's DBT, there's transcranial magnets. So keep going.
You know, if some one modality didn't work for you,
it doesn't mean you're broken. It just means you didn't
probably find the right tools. Yet.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
What were those acronyms, because I don't even know what
they stand for.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Yeah, one is CBT, it's cognitive behavioral therapy. The other
one's dialectical behavioral therapy. I'm a big believer that by
changing our thoughts, feelings, and actions, we see specific results
in our lives. Talk therapy for me, personally alone never
quite worked. I would become aware of my problems, which
was like really great, but then I needed to like
(08:55):
practice something to change these long ingrained habits that I
had had. So CBT and DBT kind of revolve around
that the practicable things that you can do to wake up.
But there's tons of tricks. You know, we have a
mental health Foundation and we work with kids with suicidal
ideation and all kinds of things, and so you know,
like for panic attacks, there's many things you can do,
(09:17):
ice cubes, something cold. You know, when you have a
panic attack, your brain goes offline, it goes dark, and
if you watch an MRI you can look it up
on the internet. Your blood drains out of your frontal
lobes and your amigdala gets all of the blood, and
so you literally go offline. And that's why it feels
that way. And so if you want to you want
(09:37):
to force blood back into the processing centers. And so
one of the best ways to do that is just
have sensory things so cold or hot or taste or
touching something and making your brain process this is a
cold white counter, just that type of detail your blood
(09:58):
has to like redirect to process us those kinds of
information signals and so that'll help you get out of
a panic attack. And then you can learn to bring
awareness around like way I can feel in coming on
and then like, oh, I know for me, like if
there's two, I call it pillar changes. Like if I'm
going through two foundational changes in my life, I need
(10:18):
to be really careful. I'm really prone to panic attacks
if that happens. And so I can kind of develop
like a little protocol for myself if I'm moving and
going through a breakup or something like that, because I know,
I'm like, it's gonna be triggy.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I knew what she was talking about.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Oh yeah, I know, Yes, we know what that's like
to have more than one.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
It's very dramatic.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Nah. My pastor used to always say in that twelve
month period, a person can't have more than five of
those or you are clinically going insane, like you need help.
And yes, it's it's a lot. I recognize it. When
you said it. Oh yeah, we.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Were like, oh that hits that reads. Yeah. And for me,
like when you run too many strains and if I
don't have a safe person with me, I'm fifty one
years old, I'm like, no, I need a human binkie,
What's what's coming with me?
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Both of my daughters still have their baby blankets. I
don't know what that says, but they need They actually
use them when they're feeling stressed. It absolutely works for them.
That's pretty cool. That's why I never knew that about
panic attacks. I just do something really valuable.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Isn't it a shame that we all have brains, just
like we have teeth? We all know dental hygiene. I
don't feel embarrassed that I've gotten black and I f loss, Like,
why are we embarrassed? We have brains and we need
mental health hygiene, and like, why aren't we taught like
what a panic attack is? Like it just blows my
mind that information isn't out there.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Are we doing much better about that? We feel like,
and we like to say we're doing better in the
mental health conversation, But are we doing better?
Speaker 3 (11:50):
That's an interesting topic. We're doing worse than ever, sadly,
Like the stats around mental health are really abysmal, and
so these types of tools are really needed. The great
thing about not doing good is you know you need help,
and so I think it's a great time to help people.
People are in pain, people are struggling, And when people
are struggling, they will tend to go through adopting something new,
trying something new they may not have tried before. And
(12:12):
then I think there's actually a real conversation to be
had around the modern health mental health movement. I have
a fear personally. I think that our spiritual practices and
our self growth practices should make us grittier and more
resilient and less precious. It should make us more capable.
And I do worry sometimes that the way the mental
(12:32):
health conversation can be had actually makes us more precious
and more fragile, you know. And so I would just
encourage anybody to just pay attention to is are the
practices you're enveloping in your life making you grittier? Because
we're built to handle stress. Actually, we're built for this,
you know, So it should make us more resilient.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I love that you just said that, because I think
when people say things like you just triggered me again,
you're giving away your power. You're saying you need to
change your behavior so I feel safe. Yeah, And I
think people start to believe that instead of realizing you
actually have the power. The power is from within and
you can acknowledge a trigger, but then you have to
get curious, why do I feel that way? Instead of
(13:15):
why did that person do that to me?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Yeah? And I look at it like an economy, Like
I can't invest my emotional energy, my emotional resources in
a place I have zero control. You know, I actually
shouldn't be investing it in myself because I do have
the ability to influence my own decisions. And so you know,
I got triggered by that. And what am I willing
(13:39):
to do about that? Am I going to stay away
from Sally?
Speaker 2 (13:42):
You know?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Because every time I'm around her I feel terrible? This
is a hypothetical, Sally.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I know people are going through your lyrics right now.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yes, Sally?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah? And am I willing to stay away from that relationship?
You know? What? It's about a self responsibility?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Wow, we don't practice that most of us humans, right,
We're all about wanting to blame the other person. And
also just this, I feel like there's this voyeurism out
there now where we just want to see someone else's
life that's messier than ours. So we feel better about
hours that we don't have to fix hours because ours
isn't as bad as theirs.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
And I think a lot of that's just because the
idea of change is so overwhelming. I mean, where do
you start. I mean, we're not taught these tools. So
if you feel hopeless that you really actually can break
down and have steps to changing yourself, A very good
tactic is to say I don't need to change, they're
the problem. You know, I get it.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Last thing I did want to ask you actually on
that point, there are a lot of people who are
under assault to a certain degree by bills, trying to
get food on the table, trying to get a kid
safely to and from school every day. Right, there are
a lot of parents who have so much on their plates,
and I know you acknowledge that, but for them, for
just a moment, if there was something you could say
(15:06):
as a plea, like, I know you got all this
going on, but why it's still important that they take
even what first step and making sure they're okay upstairs?
Speaker 3 (15:15):
They matter? I mean, overwhelmed parents, you know, you always
put yourself last. You're trying to care for everybody else,
and often you are the only you know, you are
the lynchpin in other people's lives without much safety in it,
and It is wildly stressful, but you matter. Your happiness
(15:35):
and your experience matter, and investing in that one friendship
that's safe, calling that one person at night and where
you can say, I'm shame spiraling, I just yelled at
my kid or whatever it is. You know, have that
one person that feels like a safe place, it feels
like a respite. Learning to just stop and a lot
of it. That's why I really am science focused. But
(15:58):
in five breaths, you can get yourself off of fight
or flight and into pair sympathetic nervous system. By breaths.
You have five breaths. Everybody has five breaths, you know,
and so investing that as self care is really important.
But if you weren't raised with somebody caring for you,
it's very hard to establish the habit of caring for yourself.
It's not comfortable. But there's a simple, free thing that
(16:21):
you can do, and everybody's worth it.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I love that. I still am kind of reeling about
the ice or something to actually physically. You know, we
all put it to mental, but a brain is an organ.
A brain is physical, and that concept of doing something
physical to change your brain chemistry and that moment is
really remarkable in terms of other things that are available.
(16:45):
They are free. How much does exercise play a role
in your life? And do you lean on anything else
physical to try and help with the mental.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, I really look at mental health as like an ecosystem. Know,
I don't get to choose how life changes. I only
get to choose how it changes me. And I realized
somewhere along the line that I think I was engaging
and like healing as of elegant form of control. I
thought maybe if I healed perfectly, I would never have
anything bad happen to me again. And so I had
(17:17):
to come to terms with the fact that, you know,
life is destined to break all of our hearts. It's
what we do with those pieces that make us extraordinary,
and we have to live with the vulnerability of the
fact that bad things are still going to happen in
our lives. That doesn't mean you're mentally unhealthy. Like you
should be sad when something sad happens, you know, that's health.
You should be stressed when something stressful happens. It's about
(17:39):
how quickly can you come back to regulation. That really
is a sign of health. I forget your question. I
got was.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
No, but it's all so fascinating. But I was asking
about the role of exercise. Oh yeah, because I do
think that is something that is available to everyone. But
sometimes it's the last thing you want to do when
you feel stressed, or when you're in a shame spiral
or having a panic attack.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Yeah yeah, I love to have many, many tools for
any given problem. So like for a panic attack, ice
cubes works, peppermint will scent, that type of strong scent
will work. Reading something sometimes ice cubes don't work. Sometimes
forcing myself to read works. So you want multiple tools
if you can to handle a problem. Exercise is an
amazing tool to have in your arsenal. Cold showers are
(18:23):
really good to have because that stops ruminating thoughts. So
we want to arm ourselves with a multitude, you know,
of tools, because at different times you're gonna have to
experiment and see what works.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
That's very cool, And you just mentioned something the spiraling thoughts,
and you know we have you know, we have immersed
ourselves in reading a lot of self help books, a
lot of philosophers. But what is your go to and
where are you in that journey with not you don't
want to control your thoughts, but managing them or recognizing them,
(18:59):
acknowledging them, and and shifting gears. That's I think one
of the toughest things for a lot of us is
just not getting into that negative thought pattern, or at
least recognizing it.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, I think the number one most important thing we
can invest in is cultivating awareness, learning in real time
to be consciously present. I mean, the word mindful of
such a weird word to me. It just means being
consciously present. I'm able to be consciously present, and that
puts me in a position to respond to my life
(19:33):
in a healthy way, hopefully. And so it's noticing I'm
getting agitated earlier and earlier and earlier.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I used to wake up after a panic attack and
then I sort of have awareness during it, and then
I'd start to notice it was coming on, but I
couldn't stop it. And I finally cultivated enough awareness to
go I am starting to feel triggered in enough time
that I can actually intervene. So I think raised learning
to like invest in being present is probably the safest
position we can be, and that's how to give yourself
(19:59):
a emotional safety.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, how many hours of sleep do you get to night.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Oh my gosh, I'm the worst sleeper. That's really where
my anxiety like manifest at night. I get like I rock,
I like I totally justsregulate, like right before bed. I
don't know why I've been this way in my whole life.
I've really been working on sleep, you know, to take
it really seriously into like I have to shut down,
like really really at night, Like I have to shut
everything down by like no text after five O. My
(20:27):
life down by around seven, so that oh, by ten,
my nervous system's going to cooperate with them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
The other night, we were working all the way until
eight pm. We try to go to bed around eight
thirty nine, and I was I had insomnia the entire night.
I was like, I know it was because we were
on our computers engaged. My brain was firing until eight pm.
It was no bueno. So I know, I was like,
I have got to make a better boundary there in
my life about shutting things down because your brain is
(20:56):
still going and you can't turn it off.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Yeah, we're metabolizing our thoughts, you know. Our thoughts have
a neural chemical reaction or body It is either excitatory
or calming neural chemicals one of those two things. You know,
all of our experiences are giving us neuro chemical experiences
that our body has to deal with. It's so interconnected.
So like another tool that's really helped me as I've
(21:18):
learned to look at my anxiety as an ally the
same way like if I ate bad chicken and I
got food poisoning me, throwing up isn't the problem me
learning to not eat bad chicken is the problem. And
so your anxiety is sort of like it's a side
effect of consuming a thought, a feeling, or an action
that doesn't agree with you. And so I learned to
(21:41):
make my anxiety was like my best friend. I realized.
I was like, oh, this is how I'm going to
know what I'm consuming that doesn't agree with me. And
it became like a map for me, and I stopped
trying to push it away and instead would get really
curious and be like, Okay, what was I just thinking?
What was I just feeling? What was I just doing?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
That is really really cool. How much does music play
in your life now? Today?
Speaker 3 (22:06):
I write for myself all the time. I don't tour.
I've never touring is hard for me you know, you
talk about like anxiety and not sleeping, and you put
me on like a moving vehicle all night long. That's
rattling down the road. It's like a recipe for disaster. Sadly,
for me, my career would have been very different if
I could sleep on the tour bus. But for me,
writing has always been my medicine, you know, whether it's
(22:28):
songs or poems or whatever, just reflections. I write a
lot and I paint a lot, like I'm doing a
lot of visual art now and it's very uh yeah,
it's healing. Arts are healing.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
And do you have I know you you've already reached
the pinnacle of fame, and we already discussed what that
was like. What do you do you have specific goals
not just about obviously, not just about like fame or
any sort of monetary reward, but what are your goals
(23:00):
going forward now? Even from a from a work life standpoint,
what do you have in mind?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You know, the beginning of my career, I was very
very lucky to do something I loved at a high level,
and I did it from a state of depletion and
exhaustion and trauma, and so getting to be fifty and
engage with art and see what I'm capable of, Like
I'm doing a lot of sculpture and visual art, and
(23:32):
to challenge myself to get a certain level of work
out of myself, but doing it from a place of
fullness and a place of rest. It's really a privilege.
You know, very few people get the chance to have
a do over in their life, if you will, and
I think that's really you know, healing is hard work,
but it puts you in a position to have a
(23:54):
different life, and that's really an amazing thing.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
You seem really at peace and you seem really joyful.
That's the goal, right.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
It is the goal. Yeah, And it's it's interesting because
you can't get happy, you know, when you're unhappy, you
can't just get happy. You can choose to do things
that do bring you joy, and that's an actionable thing.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
So empowering. And this has been such a well, this
has been an education in a conversation for both of
us and hopefully for everyone listening. So thank you for
all the work you do in this field. And I
mean you've lived it. You don't just talk it, you
walk it, and we appreciate I mean, I want to
go back and listen to this podcast so I can
take notes this time, because I wanted to really be
(24:42):
engaged and listen to you. But you had so many
incredible things to say, and just you're a beautiful soul.
Thank you for being here, thank you for being on
the podcast, and thank you for everything you do.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
It'd be so fun if I can get I don't
know if you guys did travel ever, but if we're
doing the summit in Vegas, the Mental Health Summit, I
find that, like in philanthropy, there's so many silos and
not everybody knows what everybody else is doing. I just
heard an incredible talk about the effect that how depression
can be passed through bacteria, so like kissing can actually
(25:14):
like if you're kissing a depressed person, they're learning. I know,
isn't that crazy?
Speaker 2 (25:18):
So much is making sense now, That's why I feel
bad every time.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Anyway, there's really interesting things where we're learning, even just
like with limes disease and certain viral and you know
immune responses are affecting mental health and that it isn't
just in your mind, it's this very physiological thing. And
so the summit's designed to bring leaders who are working
in these really specific, very innovative areas together so that
we can learn to help us be better advocates for ourselves.
(25:49):
And then the awards show is it's just shaping up
really well. It's a lot of really amazing entertainers and
it's nicely able to honor people that care about the
space and are working hard in it.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
You had us at Vegas. Chill us an absolute pleasure,
haven't you, and we hope to see you very soon,
maybe out in the Nevada desert.
Welcome back everyone to this edition of Amy and PJ.
This is part two of our conversation with four time
Grammy nominee Jewel.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
You talked earlier about liking to be alone, right, and
that was helpful for you. But then you have something
called the not Alone Challenge. Now help us bridge that
divide if you will, but no, explain. This started several
years ago and it's grown to the point now you
have an award show coming out. But how did it
start in the first place.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Yeah, and it's a great distinction. You know, being alone
is different than loneliness. You can feel lonely around people.
You can be alone and feel deeply connected. It's a
very personal thing. But I really you know, we've seen
the stats on mental health are really dismal. One in
four kids are contemplating taking their life, and it's not
(00:50):
much better for adults in all honesty, and so we're
really living through an epidemic of disconnection. And we forgot
how to connect to ourselves in a meaningful way. You know,
where we enjoy being alone and we like our company,
we've lost how to really connect to one another in
a meaningful way and connections nourishing. It's very it's important
to us. We're a carbon based molecule. We're literally built
(01:12):
to connect. And so the challenge is was actually the
diet idea of our kids. We have a mental health
foundation and we've been doing it for twenty five years
and it was one of their idea to do a
social media challenge, and it's just been wildly successful. We've
gotten over three billion impressions. It's just been unreal in
four years. And so for me, it's really about not
(01:34):
just raising awareness, but putting tools into people's hands that
are free, giving them resources that they may not know about,
because I think it's mean to raise awareness and then
not help them. That's just because you kind of are
also aware your miserable. It's like, but now what do
I do about it? And then the success was just
so overwhelming that we decided to segue it into a
summit this year and an awards show.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That's incredible and it's interesting hearing you say we've never
been more disconnected, and yet we've never been more connected
technologically speaking, how much do you think that has actually
been a huge disservice. I know you can be empowering
with social media challenges and hashtags. And getting information out there.
(02:18):
Why do you think we're in the state we're in
given the technology we.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Have it, I don't know. Food might be a good metaphor.
You know, you can be full and have a junk
food diet and you're nutritionally starving, and so you want
to look at like what type of calories might and
I'm going to get really nourishing diet and connections like that.
There's vapid entertainment excitatory which a lot of our technology does.
(02:45):
You know, when you scroll through your Instagram or whatever,
it can be sort of this biochemical perk, almost like
it's like a hit that we're kind of also forgetting
what deep, meaningful can feels like it's different than excitement.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Do we have kids growing up who don't have any
idea what that is? I mean, some adults could have
lost it along the way, but we have a whole
generation growing up that they know how to use an
iPad and navigated by the age of two or three.
So their connection has always been that are we losing
in your opinion, and to some degree, a generation of
kids who are coming up and right now have no
(03:24):
idea about what it's like to have a human family
connection on a homestead. We don't have to go to
that extreme, but you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yeah, I think it's an unprecedented time to parent. You know,
I'm a fourteen year old, and so iPads were around
and doing well when I was a young mom. And
seeing my son's personality change when I took the iPad
away when he was four, I was like, Oh, there's
something up, Like, this isn't what I think it is.
This isn't harmless entertainment and learning that they really do
(03:53):
get addicted to their own body chemistry through these excitatory
neurochemicals and we're just not teaching parents about it, you
know what I mean. And you know, learning to have
a calm, open, dilated sense of connection is very different
than being excited and entertained, And so you definitely want
to help your kids not confuse those two things if
(04:14):
you can.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I'm curious as a mom. You know, you said you
wanted to break the cycle that you inherited, that your
father inherited.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
How do you do that?
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I mean, that's that's a heavy task once you've acknowledged
and I mean, I'm a believer that we all all
suffer from some form of mental health issues at sometimes
every point in our lives. But it ebbs and flows.
We're all in the thick of it, and we all
inherit something. How do you how do you break a
cycle like that? How have you done so?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yeah? I think one is just through attention and the
willingness to want to do it and to show up
every day and make that a priority in your life.
When you make your happiness your priority, your life will change.
You know, how fast or how slowly is all up
for debate, but it change for healing, you know, generational trauma.
For me, like something that's really helped me is just
(05:07):
the healing of the parent, is the healing of the child.
You know, my commitment to heal is a gift to
me and it's also a gift to my child. And
then learning to live with the fact that you're not perfect.
You're going to make mistakes in front of your child,
and what you really hope their takeaway is is that
they're going to be growing and healing and learning their
whole life too.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
How is your What do you notice about your son
at the age of fourteen and you think back to
how you were at the age of fourteen, coming up
in a much different place, in a different way, different mindset.
How do you compare those two kids?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Yeah, you know, I became a single mom when I
was forty, I guess. And I was like, how do
you be a single parent and be famous and rich?
Like it's kind of like having two strikes against you as.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
A parent, I think.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
And so I was like, I don't think I could
be famous, rich and live in la I know a
lot of parents do it successful. I just it was
so far from how I was raised. I didn't know
how to do it. I was like, that's three strikes,
Like I don't know how to parents around that one.
That's a tough culture. So for me, it was like
I made a big commitment to move in a tiny town,
to use nature as kind of my co parent the
(06:16):
way it was one for me, and to just have
a specific lifestyle hopefully that could help anchor my son
into a very real experience.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah. I love that concept, to have nature be a
co parent with you. That's pretty cool. I can say
that some of the most meaningful and mindful experiences I've
had with my children were hiking. They had to put
their phones down because there was no cell reception where
we were, and they all of a sudden were connected
(06:47):
to something that Especially raising kids in New York City
has been a difficult situation in a lot of ways
because it was very different from how I was raised,
certainly how TJ. Was raised Georgia, Arkansas we're in you know,
are jungle and so yes, raising kids without access to
the kind of nature that we grew up with is
significant and I never thought about it like that, But
(07:09):
that's pretty cool. We can learn a lot from our surroundings,
maybe not as much in New York City, but maybe
in ways we didn't want our kids to learn.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Is he connected to earth like you were? Would you say?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Yeah, he has a really meaningful connection. So I don't
think it's the same we have such a childhoods but
yeah he has a And you know, nature does it
for you, like if you have a hard time relaxing,
get out in big nature. There's studies on what it
does to your nervous system and helps it dilate and
helps you regulate your nervous system.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Oh my god, you are absolutely appreciing to the choir.
There is something about being Any problem you have suddenly
just doesn't seem insurmountable. True when you're surrounded by nature.
I love that. Now you mentioned raising awareness is one thing.
Giving people tools is actually what is meaningful, in the
sense that we have to give not just our children
(07:58):
but adults too, outlets and ways to figure out how
to get better, how to make happiness a priority. What
are some of those ways that you all are sharing
with people who attend the summit and certainly news of
this awareness.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Yeah, there's so many tools. So I guess just for
anybody listening, you know, if talk therapy hasn't worked for you,
there's CBT, there's DBT, there's transcranial magnets. So keep going.
You know, if some one modality didn't work for you,
it doesn't mean you're broken. It just means you didn't
probably find the right tools. Yet.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
What were those acronyms, because I don't even know what
they stand for.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Yeah, one is CBT, it's cognitive behavioral therapy. The other
one's dialectical behavioral therapy. I'm a big believer that by
changing our thoughts, feelings, and actions, we see specific results
in our lives. Talk therapy for me, personally alone never
quite worked. I would become aware of my problems, which
was like really great, but then I needed to like
(08:55):
practice something to change these long ingrained habits that I
had had. So CBT and DBT kind of revolve around
that the practicable things that you can do to wake up.
But there's tons of tricks. You know, we have a
mental health Foundation and we work with kids with suicidal
ideation and all kinds of things, and so you know,
like for panic attacks, there's many things you can do,
(09:17):
ice cubes, something cold. You know, when you have a
panic attack, your brain goes offline, it goes dark, and
if you watch an MRI you can look it up
on the internet. Your blood drains out of your frontal
lobes and your amigdala gets all of the blood, and
so you literally go offline. And that's why it feels
that way. And so if you want to you want
(09:37):
to force blood back into the processing centers. And so
one of the best ways to do that is just
have sensory things so cold or hot or taste or
touching something and making your brain process this is a
cold white counter, just that type of detail your blood
(09:58):
has to like redirect to process us those kinds of
information signals and so that'll help you get out of
a panic attack. And then you can learn to bring
awareness around like way I can feel in coming on
and then like, oh, I know for me, like if
there's two, I call it pillar changes. Like if I'm
going through two foundational changes in my life, I need
(10:18):
to be really careful. I'm really prone to panic attacks
if that happens. And so I can kind of develop
like a little protocol for myself if I'm moving and
going through a breakup or something like that, because I know,
I'm like, it's gonna be triggy.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I knew what she was talking about.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Oh yeah, I know, Yes, we know what that's like
to have more than one.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
It's very dramatic.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Nah. My pastor used to always say in that twelve
month period, a person can't have more than five of
those or you are clinically going insane, like you need help.
And yes, it's it's a lot. I recognize it. When
you said it. Oh yeah, we.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Were like, oh that hits that reads. Yeah. And for me,
like when you run too many strains and if I
don't have a safe person with me, I'm fifty one
years old, I'm like, no, I need a human binkie,
What's what's coming with me?
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Both of my daughters still have their baby blankets. I
don't know what that says, but they need They actually
use them when they're feeling stressed. It absolutely works for them.
That's pretty cool. That's why I never knew that about
panic attacks. I just do something really valuable.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Isn't it a shame that we all have brains, just
like we have teeth? We all know dental hygiene. I
don't feel embarrassed that I've gotten black and I f loss, Like,
why are we embarrassed? We have brains and we need
mental health hygiene, and like, why aren't we taught like
what a panic attack is? Like it just blows my
mind that information isn't out there.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Are we doing much better about that? We feel like,
and we like to say we're doing better in the
mental health conversation, But are we doing better?
Speaker 3 (11:50):
That's an interesting topic. We're doing worse than ever, sadly,
Like the stats around mental health are really abysmal, and
so these types of tools are really needed. The great
thing about not doing good is you know you need help,
and so I think it's a great time to help people.
People are in pain, people are struggling, And when people
are struggling, they will tend to go through adopting something new,
trying something new they may not have tried before. And
(12:12):
then I think there's actually a real conversation to be
had around the modern health mental health movement. I have
a fear personally. I think that our spiritual practices and
our self growth practices should make us grittier and more
resilient and less precious. It should make us more capable.
And I do worry sometimes that the way the mental
(12:32):
health conversation can be had actually makes us more precious
and more fragile, you know. And so I would just
encourage anybody to just pay attention to is are the
practices you're enveloping in your life making you grittier? Because
we're built to handle stress. Actually, we're built for this,
you know, So it should make us more resilient.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I love that you just said that, because I think
when people say things like you just triggered me again,
you're giving away your power. You're saying you need to
change your behavior so I feel safe. Yeah, And I
think people start to believe that instead of realizing you
actually have the power. The power is from within and
you can acknowledge a trigger, but then you have to
get curious, why do I feel that way? Instead of
(13:15):
why did that person do that to me?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Yeah? And I look at it like an economy, Like
I can't invest my emotional energy, my emotional resources in
a place I have zero control. You know, I actually
shouldn't be investing it in myself because I do have
the ability to influence my own decisions. And so you know,
I got triggered by that. And what am I willing
(13:39):
to do about that? Am I going to stay away
from Sally?
Speaker 2 (13:42):
You know?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Because every time I'm around her I feel terrible? This
is a hypothetical, Sally.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I know people are going through your lyrics right now.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yes, Sally?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah? And am I willing to stay away from that relationship?
You know? What? It's about a self responsibility?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Wow, we don't practice that most of us humans, right,
We're all about wanting to blame the other person. And
also just this, I feel like there's this voyeurism out
there now where we just want to see someone else's
life that's messier than ours. So we feel better about
hours that we don't have to fix hours because ours
isn't as bad as theirs.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
And I think a lot of that's just because the
idea of change is so overwhelming. I mean, where do
you start. I mean, we're not taught these tools. So
if you feel hopeless that you really actually can break
down and have steps to changing yourself, A very good
tactic is to say I don't need to change, they're
the problem. You know, I get it.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Last thing I did want to ask you actually on
that point, there are a lot of people who are
under assault to a certain degree by bills, trying to
get food on the table, trying to get a kid
safely to and from school every day. Right, there are
a lot of parents who have so much on their plates,
and I know you acknowledge that, but for them, for
just a moment, if there was something you could say
(15:06):
as a plea, like, I know you got all this
going on, but why it's still important that they take
even what first step and making sure they're okay upstairs?
Speaker 3 (15:15):
They matter? I mean, overwhelmed parents, you know, you always
put yourself last. You're trying to care for everybody else,
and often you are the only you know, you are
the lynchpin in other people's lives without much safety in it,
and It is wildly stressful, but you matter. Your happiness
(15:35):
and your experience matter, and investing in that one friendship
that's safe, calling that one person at night and where
you can say, I'm shame spiraling, I just yelled at
my kid or whatever it is. You know, have that
one person that feels like a safe place, it feels
like a respite. Learning to just stop and a lot
of it. That's why I really am science focused. But
(15:58):
in five breaths, you can get yourself off of fight
or flight and into pair sympathetic nervous system. By breaths.
You have five breaths. Everybody has five breaths, you know,
and so investing that as self care is really important.
But if you weren't raised with somebody caring for you,
it's very hard to establish the habit of caring for yourself.
It's not comfortable. But there's a simple, free thing that
(16:21):
you can do, and everybody's worth it.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I love that. I still am kind of reeling about
the ice or something to actually physically. You know, we
all put it to mental, but a brain is an organ.
A brain is physical, and that concept of doing something
physical to change your brain chemistry and that moment is
really remarkable in terms of other things that are available.
(16:45):
They are free. How much does exercise play a role
in your life? And do you lean on anything else
physical to try and help with the mental.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, I really look at mental health as like an ecosystem. Know,
I don't get to choose how life changes. I only
get to choose how it changes me. And I realized
somewhere along the line that I think I was engaging
and like healing as of elegant form of control. I
thought maybe if I healed perfectly, I would never have
anything bad happen to me again. And so I had
(17:17):
to come to terms with the fact that, you know,
life is destined to break all of our hearts. It's
what we do with those pieces that make us extraordinary,
and we have to live with the vulnerability of the
fact that bad things are still going to happen in
our lives. That doesn't mean you're mentally unhealthy. Like you
should be sad when something sad happens, you know, that's health.
You should be stressed when something stressful happens. It's about
(17:39):
how quickly can you come back to regulation. That really
is a sign of health. I forget your question. I
got was.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
No, but it's all so fascinating. But I was asking
about the role of exercise. Oh yeah, because I do
think that is something that is available to everyone. But
sometimes it's the last thing you want to do when
you feel stressed, or when you're in a shame spiral
or having a panic attack.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Yeah yeah, I love to have many, many tools for
any given problem. So like for a panic attack, ice
cubes works, peppermint will scent, that type of strong scent
will work. Reading something sometimes ice cubes don't work. Sometimes
forcing myself to read works. So you want multiple tools
if you can to handle a problem. Exercise is an
amazing tool to have in your arsenal. Cold showers are
(18:23):
really good to have because that stops ruminating thoughts. So
we want to arm ourselves with a multitude, you know,
of tools, because at different times you're gonna have to
experiment and see what works.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
That's very cool, And you just mentioned something the spiraling thoughts,
and you know we have you know, we have immersed
ourselves in reading a lot of self help books, a
lot of philosophers. But what is your go to and
where are you in that journey with not you don't
want to control your thoughts, but managing them or recognizing them,
(18:59):
acknowledging them, and and shifting gears. That's I think one
of the toughest things for a lot of us is
just not getting into that negative thought pattern, or at
least recognizing it.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, I think the number one most important thing we
can invest in is cultivating awareness, learning in real time
to be consciously present. I mean, the word mindful of
such a weird word to me. It just means being
consciously present. I'm able to be consciously present, and that
puts me in a position to respond to my life
(19:33):
in a healthy way, hopefully. And so it's noticing I'm
getting agitated earlier and earlier and earlier.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I used to wake up after a panic attack and
then I sort of have awareness during it, and then
I'd start to notice it was coming on, but I
couldn't stop it. And I finally cultivated enough awareness to
go I am starting to feel triggered in enough time
that I can actually intervene. So I think raised learning
to like invest in being present is probably the safest
position we can be, and that's how to give yourself
(19:59):
a emotional safety.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, how many hours of sleep do you get to night.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Oh my gosh, I'm the worst sleeper. That's really where
my anxiety like manifest at night. I get like I rock,
I like I totally justsregulate, like right before bed. I
don't know why I've been this way in my whole life.
I've really been working on sleep, you know, to take
it really seriously into like I have to shut down,
like really really at night, Like I have to shut
everything down by like no text after five O. My
(20:27):
life down by around seven, so that oh, by ten,
my nervous system's going to cooperate with them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
The other night, we were working all the way until
eight pm. We try to go to bed around eight
thirty nine, and I was I had insomnia the entire night.
I was like, I know it was because we were
on our computers engaged. My brain was firing until eight pm.
It was no bueno. So I know, I was like,
I have got to make a better boundary there in
my life about shutting things down because your brain is
(20:56):
still going and you can't turn it off.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Yeah, we're metabolizing our thoughts, you know. Our thoughts have
a neural chemical reaction or body It is either excitatory
or calming neural chemicals one of those two things. You know,
all of our experiences are giving us neuro chemical experiences
that our body has to deal with. It's so interconnected.
So like another tool that's really helped me as I've
(21:18):
learned to look at my anxiety as an ally the
same way like if I ate bad chicken and I
got food poisoning me, throwing up isn't the problem me
learning to not eat bad chicken is the problem. And
so your anxiety is sort of like it's a side
effect of consuming a thought, a feeling, or an action
that doesn't agree with you. And so I learned to
(21:41):
make my anxiety was like my best friend. I realized.
I was like, oh, this is how I'm going to
know what I'm consuming that doesn't agree with me. And
it became like a map for me, and I stopped
trying to push it away and instead would get really
curious and be like, Okay, what was I just thinking?
What was I just feeling? What was I just doing?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
That is really really cool. How much does music play
in your life now? Today?
Speaker 3 (22:06):
I write for myself all the time. I don't tour.
I've never touring is hard for me you know, you
talk about like anxiety and not sleeping, and you put
me on like a moving vehicle all night long. That's
rattling down the road. It's like a recipe for disaster. Sadly,
for me, my career would have been very different if
I could sleep on the tour bus. But for me,
writing has always been my medicine, you know, whether it's
(22:28):
songs or poems or whatever, just reflections. I write a
lot and I paint a lot, like I'm doing a
lot of visual art now and it's very uh yeah,
it's healing. Arts are healing.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
And do you have I know you you've already reached
the pinnacle of fame, and we already discussed what that
was like. What do you do you have specific goals
not just about obviously, not just about like fame or
any sort of monetary reward, but what are your goals
(23:00):
going forward now? Even from a from a work life standpoint,
what do you have in mind?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You know, the beginning of my career, I was very
very lucky to do something I loved at a high level,
and I did it from a state of depletion and
exhaustion and trauma, and so getting to be fifty and
engage with art and see what I'm capable of, Like
I'm doing a lot of sculpture and visual art, and
(23:32):
to challenge myself to get a certain level of work
out of myself, but doing it from a place of
fullness and a place of rest. It's really a privilege.
You know, very few people get the chance to have
a do over in their life, if you will, and
I think that's really you know, healing is hard work,
but it puts you in a position to have a
(23:54):
different life, and that's really an amazing thing.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
You seem really at peace and you seem really joyful.
That's the goal, right.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
It is the goal. Yeah, And it's it's interesting because
you can't get happy, you know, when you're unhappy, you
can't just get happy. You can choose to do things
that do bring you joy, and that's an actionable thing.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
So empowering. And this has been such a well, this
has been an education in a conversation for both of
us and hopefully for everyone listening. So thank you for
all the work you do in this field. And I
mean you've lived it. You don't just talk it, you
walk it, and we appreciate I mean, I want to
go back and listen to this podcast so I can
take notes this time, because I wanted to really be
(24:42):
engaged and listen to you. But you had so many
incredible things to say, and just you're a beautiful soul.
Thank you for being here, thank you for being on
the podcast, and thank you for everything you do.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
It'd be so fun if I can get I don't
know if you guys did travel ever, but if we're
doing the summit in Vegas, the Mental Health Summit, I
find that, like in philanthropy, there's so many silos and
not everybody knows what everybody else is doing. I just
heard an incredible talk about the effect that how depression
can be passed through bacteria, so like kissing can actually
(25:14):
like if you're kissing a depressed person, they're learning. I know,
isn't that crazy?
Speaker 2 (25:18):
So much is making sense now, That's why I feel
bad every time.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Anyway, there's really interesting things where we're learning, even just
like with limes disease and certain viral and you know
immune responses are affecting mental health and that it isn't
just in your mind, it's this very physiological thing. And
so the summit's designed to bring leaders who are working
in these really specific, very innovative areas together so that
we can learn to help us be better advocates for ourselves.
(25:49):
And then the awards show is it's just shaping up
really well. It's a lot of really amazing entertainers and
it's nicely able to honor people that care about the
space and are working hard in it.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
You had us at Vegas. Chill us an absolute pleasure,
haven't you, and we hope to see you very soon,
maybe out in the Nevada desert.
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