Defining Success with Nicole Lapin

What does the word “success” mean to you? Ben and Jesse attempt to define that elusive term by talking to “Boss Bitch” author and financial expert Nicole Lapin. She saw that people aren’t getting enough financial education, so she started her own school to help people become smarter with money. And she has some incredible tips you can use to start saving more money RIGHT NOW. Then we take things outside, when the “manscapers” from Bravo’s Backyard Envy stop by. They tell Jesse and Ben what it’s like to start a business with close friends, and how they keep their professional relationship and their friendships separate. And when you have 3 equal owners of a company, who has the final say?? 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Lady Bosses and then and I heart radio podcast, Jesse.
Do you feel like I belong on this podcast? Sometimes?
Sometimes I do? Ben? What do you think? What do
you think of is the one reason why I wouldn't
belong here? Um, it's called Lady Bosses, but I can't

(00:24):
really think of a reason that surrounds that title at all. Well, Uh,
you know what, if you hear some extra giggles in
the background, that's because our our Lady Boss of the
Week is in studio with us right now. TV personality
and money expert Nicole Lapp and launches the Monday School
online course. She's here to talk about it today. UM,

(00:47):
I want to hear what you guys think that the
podcast is called Lady Bosses. What's a man's name? Like?
What would be the man boss name? Thing? I think
maybe bro boss Dude. That sounds terrible that that boy boss,
boss Man, boss Man, big Man, Bob. I don't like

(01:13):
any of those. There's not one of those that I
even feel like. It's just Ben, Lady, you guys figured
it out, Nicole. For anybody out there listening, we like
to to get this segment started with just you explaining
yourself and so for listeners out there, if you were

(01:35):
to on a date with them and explain yourself in
one minute, how would you explain yourself on a date?
This is like a date. How I'm explaining? Oh yeah,
I like that. We're going to get into the professional Yeah, okay, yeah,
you're okay. This is a date explanation, Ben. We normally
I don't talk about like work stuff on dates. I
actually say, like, what are you excited about? So it

(01:56):
can be open ended? Okay, so what are you excited about? Actually, Ben,
you should say that is are we all playing a date?
What's happening right now? What are you excited about? Hey? Ben,
I'm really excited about launching an entire school that teaches
people about money. Super stoked about that. I also took

(02:19):
a tomahawk throwing class recently and that was awesome. I
realized that I like meditation. Meditation makes us happier, but
I don't do the Omshaunty type stuff, and so I
do random classes that are repetitive and meditative. So like
a latte art making class was a recent adventure archer,
how to do that? Come over? It's hard, by the way,

(02:42):
tip your barista like it's no joke, you have to
do it in a certain angle. I walked in like
thinking I was going to make hearts and birds and
like all that, and he was like, maybe if you
could get the contrast right at the end of this
two hours, like that would be fine. It's like, are
you serious? Yeah, it's no joke, and so that's what
I'm excited about. Ben. Yeah, you're started school about money. Uh,

(03:02):
and I just wanted to dive in here. You're widely
popular right now. But then you have a book called
Rich Bitch, a simple twelve step plan to get your
financial life together. Finally, Yeah, what's one thing you and
Jesse both are are experts when it comes to money.
I'm not. I can't count, and that's something I take

(03:23):
pride in. But what is some things off the top
of your head right now that we don't learn about
money in our regular schooling. We don't learn any of it.
It pisces me off so much so. I was a
financial anchor for a million and a half years and
I was talking to old, rich white dudes about money,
and then I was like, this is not the audience
that needs this information most. It is my former self,
the girl who was smiling and nodding and not joining

(03:45):
basic money conversations because I was so freaked out and
so scared. I grew up in an immigrant household. Um
My boyfriend in high school said he wanted to be
a hedge fund manager, and I thought he wanted to
be in gardening. So I was like the most clueless forever.
And then I just needed a job. So I got
a job in finance, and I figured out that money
is a language like anything else. We just don't have
a Rosetta stone for it growing up. And so I

(04:08):
left CNBC. I was innguring in the early morning show there,
and I launched a book called Rich Pitch, and I
was like, either this is gonna crush it or it's
gonna fail miserably, but there's no in between. And it's
the first finance book that swears and takes back the
word bitch and owns it as a badge of honor.
And it did the latter. It It crushed it, I

(04:29):
mean people. It showed me that people were so in
need of this information because we learned like the Pythagorean
theorem and how to dissect a frog and a ton
of bullshit that I don't know why that's useful trigonometry,
Like anybody like serial killers dissect animals, Like that's like
one of the things like when you trace back like
common behavior between serial killers. So like are we teaching

(04:52):
our children that know exactly? Like you just sort of,
I don't know, brought something to light for me. So
I'm so ad because I actually, if I was in
charge of the world, I would be like, no more
serial killing lessons and more financial literacy lessons, Like we
don't learn how to do our taxes or budget or
how to make a business plan, Like those things would

(05:13):
be way more valuable than all the nonsense our kids
are learning now. So what do you learn at the
money school? And like who can go to the money school?
Anybody can go to the money school. You learn all
the basics. Um. So my first book was a twelve
step plan to get your financial life together, and my
second book, Boss Bitch was a twelve step plan to
get your career together. So this is focusing on all

(05:34):
the basics you need to know about making a budget,
what you need to know about getting a car, house, investing, saving,
all this stuff that sometimes we're too embarrassed to say
we don't know especially women, like we'll talk about everything
at dinner type before we talk about money. Do you
talk about money with your guy friends? You know, it's interesting.

(05:56):
I want to hear what you think about this, because
it's a great question. I did it when I worked,
like in college, never used to talk about money, right,
But now that I've started a couple of companies, it's
really what I talked about because I'm just trying to learn, right.
I'm not terrible at running a business. I can. I
know just enough to be dangerous. But a lot of
the decisions I'm making, like you're talking about, like building

(06:19):
a business model, a business plan, my taxes right now,
if you look at my desk that I'm sitting at
right now, everything outside of the screen here is UH
receipts and paperwork for tax seasons. I don't know how
to do it. Um, So we talked about it now
because I just need help. I don't know, and I
don't think I'm, you know, an incredibly stupid person. I

(06:41):
just have never learned it. And that's you're definitely not
a stupid person. Not but I completely agree with you, Nicole.
Women don't talk about money at all, Like zero talking
about money but we'll talk about everything else, like talk
about kenyaxes and and I realized the next time, about
two years ago, I tried. I brought this up to
a group of my girlfriends, some of whom work in finance,

(07:03):
and like they all clam up, and I'm like, hey,
let's talk about it, like are you investing, are you diversifying?
Like have you bought any stocks? And they all freak out.
And I think it's just because they don't. No, they don't.
They want to know more and they don't want to
seem stupid totally. Nobody wants to ask a question that
they don't know. And I think it's finding that inner

(07:24):
confidence and getting rid of your imposter syndrome, because I
think we all think somebody's going to find us out
and we're too embarrassed and we bury our head in
the sand. But budgeting sucks, so it's being broke people
who's planned best for? Then? Um? Is it for people
like Okay, let's say my mom for example, a really
smart person does a lot on her own, has has

(07:47):
worked and been educated, but you know, when it comes
to money, she doesn't touch it. Is it for people
like her? Or is it for people that in college,
like who's best fitted for your program? The thing is,
so my books reached women in eighteen thirty five primarily,
but I actually found that older women uh needed the
help as well because nobody learned it. It was even

(08:07):
back in the day. And so and actually having moms
that are going into new careers, like mom preneurs are
getting back in the workforce. I think that there's a
big interest around re educating yourself and this continued lifelong
learning that we should all do. This is the stuff
that's most valuable. So online education, of course, is exploding,
and I wanted to put my stick in the ground

(08:28):
in a meaningful way. It's interesting for me, so as
I would approach this right if I was getting me
to take your class? Is it difficult? I think I'm
intimidated a little bit by entering into any new education.
I feel like I'm learning as I go. Are the
blessings that you're teaching us in the skill sets that
that you're providing, are they difficult to learn? And do

(08:49):
you feel like once we get into them, it's anybody
can do it, so difficult? So okay, So no, it's
like me, so I did video lessons, their video jules
and a bunch of fun quizzes and worksheets and a
community that you can talk to. So it's just the
way that I talked to you guys right now is
the way that I talk for hours and hours on
video lessons and like show interactive stuff, bring on different experts.

(09:13):
I have different CEOs that like run investment companies and
housing companies and whatever, giving you the real deal there.
And I do it in a conversation way. Because I
didn't work at a bank, I didn't get my m
b A like, I didn't do any of that fancy stuff.
So I don't speak in jargon. And I think that's
the thing that really puts off most women in particular,
is the jargon. Again, it's a language like anything else.

(09:33):
If you went to China and you didn't speak Chinese,
you would be confused. If you go to Wall Street
and you don't speak the language of money, you would
be confused. So all you have to do is learn
the language of money, which is oftentimes the biggest hindrance
to getting your financial life together. And so that, Yeah,
I try not to be super scary. Do you think
I'm scary? But um, what are you? What are you

(09:55):
excited about I mean, I don't think you're scary. I
think you're a little bit intimidating. I mean we started
out this call, I think, but you're saying like I
don't belong here, like we need to come up with
a new name for me, like boy boss or something
like that, which set me on my toes pretty quick
because I don't feel like I belong your half the time. Anyways,
I sit in a room full a bunch of smart

(10:15):
people and try to keep up. It's a pretty intimidating task.
Um No, I think you belong. I just wanted to
give you more names. That's how much I like you.
This date is going well. I like just like sort
of being third wheels h Jesse. You like kind of experience. Then, Uh,

(10:37):
in your workplace, would programs like this be helpful to you?
I mean, could you see here if I'm listening to
Nicole talk, would you ever put your staff through something
like this? Yes? Because I believe everyone should be investing
and saving and putting their money to work and learning
how to diversify their portfolio. I think I think what
you're doing is amazing and it's so smart, and it

(10:59):
gives people access and it also sounds like a very
safe place online. But I think that's a good idea,
you know, Ben, to put your staff through it. And
also you should be I mean, you should be getting
this into high schools even totally. I am going to
launch the Boss School coming up in a couple of months.
That tracks my second book as well, and then I
had my third book coming out um at the end

(11:21):
of next this year. I think, oh, that's this year.
I don't know where am I now with another school,
and so I think, yeah, the more feedback that I
got from you know, companies that are buying it for
their employees, or groups of women who are doing it together,
because studies have shown if you do it with a friend,
you're more likely to stick to it. It's like a
regular diet or working out. If you have a trainer

(11:43):
waiting for you, or like your friend waiting outside your
house to run, you're more likely to do it than
without a buddy. It's interesting too because I wonder and
Jesse and I got to talk about this a few
weeks ago, uh, kind of what the evolution of education
will be. Uh. It's you know, technology moves so quickly.
How does a textbook keep up with it? And year

(12:04):
every year you're printing new textbooks. It's not economically feasible
for most of the school systems. I mean, so what
are you going to do? Programs like yours, video content,
more interactive communication UM experts in their field like yourself.
Do you see this being a trend in education? As
Jesse mentioned? Why not get somebody like Jesse to back

(12:25):
you and try to get you into the school systems? Yeah?
How would you actually how would you grow a company
like this? How would you grow a new UH technology
education company? So, I think it's a possibility. In the
response that we've received so far from me, it was
hard to scale me as a person, and so I

(12:45):
wanted to create something that could live on without me,
you know, physically being on the show or physically you know,
cloning myself in some way. And so as I grew
my business and as you guys are as well, you know,
as a personnalities so to speak, the question is like,
how do you create different revenue streams that you don't

(13:05):
have to manage or micromanage every day, And so that
that was my goal. But yes, I think growing it
more UM is definitely on the Horizon allegedly. Oh that's
exciting world domination. Yeah, well, Lady Boss doesn't bank in
partner with you because we're on the verge of world
domination as well, if you didn't know. And uh, and

(13:27):
part of our program is to back people like you, uh,
to kind of ride your coattails to success. Uh. Speaking
of success, you've you've brought it up a couple of
times and uh, and I need to mention it. I want,
I want us to slow down for anybody listening and
talk about um, boss bitch, a simple twelve step plan.
I can be confident in same bitch, right Like I'm

(13:47):
good with that, You're good with that. We all feel
good about that. Okay, good, um boss bitch. It's simple
twelve step plan to take charge of your career. Just
to be clear here, are all this all these programs
focused on women or is it for anybody? So if
you try to be all things to all people, as
you guys know in the media, you're nothing to no one.

(14:09):
And I had to choose my audience. Most men actually
don't buy business books written by women. It's just fact.
And most books are purchased by women. So I made
a choice, and I said, I'm going to speak to
my former self. And I've been called a bitch in
a derogatory sense, and what they meant throughout my career
is that I was loud or ambitious, and I wanted

(14:31):
not only a seat at the table, but a voice.
And if that then I was a bit, then I'm
a bit. And I own that as a badge of honor.
And so many kick as powerful women as well, who
endorsed it do because I think, you know, whatever criticism
I had, and I love a debate on this of
you know, some women say I don't like the word bitch.
I don't want to be called a bitch right now,

(14:52):
I use it in an empowering way. But also the
ends justified the means. For me, I wanted to reach
a woman who never imagined she picked up a month
a book, who picked it up because it was like
a pretty rad title, if I don't say so myself,
And so if we could get her to care about money,
then we win. We all win, because I think the language.

(15:13):
I think I wanted to change the language that we
used to talk about it so it's not as intimidating.
What's it like to write? You've written two books. Girl,
what's it like to write two books? Like? How long
does that take you? A lot of time. I did
not think I would have more than one book. I thought,
like being an anchor for so long, I would just
have a book, check the box, maybe send it around

(15:34):
for the holidays and call it a day. Like I
didn't think it was going to become a part of
my business. And and then when I was done, I
was like, never am I doing this again. I haven't
had an actual baby, but you can tell me my
girlfriends who have had babies and book babies at the
same time, or like the books are way more difficult.

(15:55):
There's no epidural for the books. And after you're like,
we are done, like in the same way as like
having a baby, Like nothing is coming in. We're not
doing this, nothing's coming in or out of this situation again.
And then you see the baby and it's so cute
and you forget the pain and you're like, let's do
this again, and so yeah, that's what happened, and um, yeah,

(16:20):
we're building out another book. I don't know how I
keeps signing up for this stuff. Goodness, what's your process?
Because I always feel like writers have a process. Either
they do like an hour a day or they just
grind it all out. I don't have a process. Maybe
I should come up with a better process. Um, you know,
I came up with a formula. I threw away a
few manuscripts. It actually took me ten years to get

(16:43):
my first book. When people are like, how do you
get a great book and how do you do all
these fancy things to go along with it, I'm like,
the first step is actually writing a good book. You
can't market your way out of a bad product, as
you know, and so I really tried to focus on
what the content was. And so for ten years I
had a bunch of false starts, and I thought this
was never going to happen for me. And I'm so

(17:03):
glad that that didn't happen, because you can't get your
another chance at your first book. And so rich Whisch
came out just a really good time in the zeitgeist
and people were interested in it, and I tried to,
you know, change the way it was always done before
and rethink it. So, what are three money tips? You
typically give people? So many tips to these women going

(17:27):
after yeah, totally happened to pick up your book and
typically all of the things. Yeah and also cool title
and thank you. Also, you know, talking about money in relationships,
as we talked about before, you know, is some of
the biggest cause of fights, financial infidelity, some of the
biggest causes of divorce. And so I try to do
like a sneak attack money advice where we're talking to

(17:49):
some it feels like we're talking about relationships, but like
who we're talking about how to divide your money with
your significant other. You know, some of the tips I
give that people didn't realize is that you should negotiate
every thing. Um. The a p R in your credit
card is not gospel just because you get it and
you just have to call and ask for a lower rate.
Same thing with your medical debt, same thing with your

(18:12):
cable bill, your cell phone bill. UM. I've done this
for a few people and just taken control of all
their bills and gotten everything lower because the worst thing
they can say is no. And oftentimes companies will throw
you a bone instead of losing you as a customer.
So I often talk about that um because I think
that it's our hard earned money. We might as well
fight for it, and we don't again learn this stuff

(18:34):
in school. So in the school of hard knocks, like
call and you know, ask, the worst thing they can
say is no. So that's one of the things I
talk a lot about UM. I also talk about UM
coming up with a spending plan that feels like an
eating plan, so it allows you the morning latte. I
argue very hard for the morning latte. A lot of

(18:55):
financial experts will tell you cut out the latte and
that is your ticket to financial freedom. I think if
you allow yourself small indulgences, you won't end up binging
later on. So like, allow yourself the equivalent of you
know that Hershey's kissed, so you don't end up gnashing
on a big olhunka chocolate cake in the middle of
the night, like in a regular crash diet, because you're
so hungry and so deprived. Like people will say, in

(19:15):
the beginning of the year, I cut up the latte.
You would be so proud of me. And then like
a couple of months later, I bought the Gucci purse
because I didn't buy the latte. Oh my girl, you
just bought your damn latte. You wouldn't feel like you
needed to get something for yourself, So I think I
think breaking it down that way, um, something that really

(19:38):
I like. I like thinking about it as a diet.
That's a really smart way to And I need my
latte totally boca every morning. It's like my one indulgence
and I'm trying to eat healthy and like lose the
baby weight. You know, it's like you need that one
sweet thing. It's just accounting for it. And so like
in any business, if it's accounted for, it's above board.
It's not like you're sneaking some money. And so I

(19:59):
bring get down to the three ees because I love alliteration,
so essentials and game and extras, to the essential, to
the extras, so like the latte, and then to the
end game. So like your future self, what you're saving
for in the future, whatever you're excited about, you're you're

(20:20):
obviously uh speaking to I think both men and women
out there, Um, what is the few And we haven't
been able to ask a guess this, but I think
you're the perfect person for it. What is the future
of women in the workplace? In Um, what if you're
building and writing books on how you become a boss later,
how you build a career as a as a woman.

(20:42):
And if you're speaking to somebody like freshman college, just
getting started, they're just prepping what does their future look like?
In this world? The future depends on them. I mean,
you are your business card. And so I actually think, um,
we need to lean back a little bit. You know,
we've been told for the last five or so years
to lean into everything, work harder, be superwoman, do it all,

(21:04):
be at all. And I actually think that we're doing
a disservice by talking that way to younger women. I
think putting your oxygen mask on first before helping others
will ultimately make you the most successful. You know, studies
are shown that happiness will make you more successful, not
the other way around. I used to think that once
I got a certain job or once I got a
certain amount of money, then I'll be happy. And then

(21:25):
I would get those things, and then I would come
up with some other goal, and I wasn't happy. And
so when I flip the equation, I realized that it's backward.
Happiness will make you more successful, not success makes you happy.
And so I think that's my biggest message right now
to younger women. It's like, you know, Ariana talks a
lot about sleeping and that's awesome, but the reality is like,

(21:47):
she wouldn't be Ariana if she slept, And so I
think we need to just have a much more real conversation.
And if you're not good, you're like, if you're not
investing in self care, you know, investing in yourself will
pay more stupidends later on, and so you're just not gonna,
you know, function your your own business card in the
end of the day. I have a question for both

(22:08):
of you them. Nicole. I know you're busy. I know
you've got eight more books to right today and we've
got to get you out of here. But you bring
up a word that's brought up often on this podcast,
and it's brought up often in terms of both men
and women, and it's it's one that we just throw around,
and I'm it's kind of like, uh, it's kind of
like the words sin in religious circles, Like what does

(22:29):
that exactly mean? Success? So I want to hear from
both of you, not speaking just to women, but speaking
to all genders, all people. What is success? Then if
you say that's going to be the thing that leads
to happiness, or if happiness leads to success or define
what you just said there because I missed that. Um,
what is success? Yeah, you know, I think it's actually

(22:52):
figuring out what that means for you. So you can't
do it all. But I think you can have it
all only if you define what having it all means
to you. So if you come up with those goals,
you know, I break them down actually into the three f's, family, finance,
and fun and so thinking about your life holistically. It's
not your work life or your personal life. It's your

(23:13):
one life. If you're not happy in one area, you're
not going to be happy in general. So it's figuring
out what having it all means to you and not
what having it all might seem to society. And I
think that success. I also think that some financial career
experts are also doing a disservice to younger everybody, not
just the ladies, um by saying you go out and

(23:34):
do what you love, like go burn your corporate bra
and go I'll pock a farming and make that artisanal
cheese shop in Brooklyn like Yollo do it now. And
I actually think it's way more valuable advice to say
love what you do. That's what I did. I hated finance,
like there was no part of me that wanted to

(23:56):
be in money. But I needed a job, and I
figured out how I love the out of what I
was doing and not just like randomly, you know, go
do something I love. I didn't have the luxury to
do that, and I think, you know, some people just don't,
and that's better advice. That's that's incredible right there, that
little nugget. I want to sit on that before Jesse

(24:17):
shares her insight is I mean, I don't even need
to share my insight. I feel very you know, I
feel familiar with what you're talking about as like a
woman who attempts to do it all, and like people
put so much pressure on women to do it all.
And I'm a mother of two small children, and then
I have, you know, a business, and you know, I

(24:37):
have to travel all the time. Every month, I'm in
at least three cities, and it's just, you know, it
is a lot of pressure to do that. And I
have actually recently redefined what success does mean to me,
and I think it is I needed to figure out
how to rejigger something in my life to feel happy.
So I really relate to what you're saying because I

(24:59):
think it isn't important, and there's so many women who
do feel that way, and it's not. Um, you know,
I want to be a good mom, and I had
to figure out, Okay, well what does that mean? Does
that like when can I spend time with my kids
and really, um be a good mom? And uh, just
because I'm working doesn't mean I'm a bad mom. It
just means I need to like redefine when I can
spend that time with my kids and really be all in.

(25:21):
I can't be going back and forth. And and then
also you have to remember to do something for you.
And I think when you're a mom and you're working
and running a company and you know, managing people and
I manage people, you know, from people in my house
like my nanny all the way to you know, our company,
and it's just there's nothing left for you at the

(25:43):
end of the day. And so it's like, how like
what is that? So recently, I've I've just found a
few things like my little latte and I do yoga,
and I you know, I've just been finding those. And
then I also like I just started going to therapy
again just to kind of like figure out it that is.
I think it's so important to do some self reflection,

(26:04):
soul search and find that happiness. So I think success
means different things to different people, but yeah, success is
typically a happy word, and so I think you have
to be happy to be successful, like the and I
do find like the most successful people in the world
who have ba jillions of dollars, like they aren't that happy. True,

(26:27):
you know, I feel like I pitched them for our
fund and I um meet with them regularly and we
co invest together, and they're you know, they're they're not
that happy. So it's important. So thank you for reminding
every one of the cool everyone needs to read her
book clearly Bloding Ben, I think studies of showing that
above there's like diminishing terms for happiness, like once you

(26:49):
can take care of your needs, your basic stuff, like
there's not much you know, more happy you get from money,
so like obviously, you know, I've seen the bajillions of
dollars of people and he's not going to make you happy.
And so, you know, I think comparison is the thief
of joy oftentimes because you know, as a mom, I'm
sure you sometimes compare yourself to others and then you know,

(27:12):
defining what success as a mom means for you is like, hey,
you know, maybe I'm not going to be focusing on
this other part. And it's like letting yourself not be
hard on yourself. Sometimes the biggest enemy is between our ears, right,
Oh totally. I am so hard on myself. I've realized
that it's it's like you, just why do we do that?
Why is everyone? It's like you, You put so much

(27:34):
pressure on yourself. And UM, yeah, no, I love that.
I think it's so important to think about and find
those things that make you happy. I recently had um
a meeting with a woman who had met with a
couple of years ago, and she said, oh, you have
at that point, I had one kid. And she said, UM, oh,
you can't be a successful woman and be a mom too, Like,

(27:55):
you can't. And she was a very prominent businesswoman and
UM had been very successful and had given her whole
life to her career and I, UM, I took that
to heart. It really it hurt because I was like,
that's not true. You know that's not true. You just
have to figure out what that is. And I actually

(28:15):
had a cool moment recently because I re met with her,
even though I was terrified too, and I was like,
she made me feel so bad. She has no idea.
She said, that's one thing that I just think about
all the time. And now I have two little kids
and I'm still working. And she actually said, I watched
you on Instagram and I have no idea how you
do it. She's like, you have two little kids and
you're running this huge business, Like how do you do it?

(28:38):
And you know, not to like toot my own horn.
But it made me awesome. It just made me feel
I was like, oh, that's okay, good, I'm glad I've
proved her wrong. And you can. You just have to
figure out how to balance it. And there is no balance,
you know. It's like you just let something drop. It's fine,
I forgot to feed my kids yesterday, but you know,
whatever it happens the Nicole, you continue to write, you

(29:03):
continue to share um. Thank you for giving us some
time today. The class is called the Money School. It's
a twelve step program to get your financial life together.
Finally been boss bitch. Twelve step planned to take charge
of your career. Nicole Appen, thank you so much for

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(31:19):
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highlights some of the coolest things happening around the world
in business and for this week, we're not falling short
by interviewing the manscapers. Sure you've heard of interior design,
but what about exterior design. Get a glimpse at some
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(31:41):
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(32:04):
and the suburbs and beyond while dealing with multiple clients
and tight deadlines. Today on Lady Bosses and Ben, we
have the Manscapers in studio. Who Hi, Manscapers, Welcome to
the podcast. Thanks for having us. So, I think the
question on everyone's brain is like, do you manscape? We

(32:29):
do it all? I mean, we man escape each other. Yeah,
back hair. So, just just so we don't have to continue,
we're gonna refer to as the Manscapers. It's a lot easier.
But we've got James, Garrett and Melissa in studio with
us today. As Jesse mentioned, you're gonna get a lot

(32:50):
of jokes about being a manscaper and what that means. Why,
what does that mean? What does that mean? Ben? I
think you should define man's escaping for the audience. Well,
I mean I think that's that's the thing. Manscaping is
any upkeep done to men, which is interesting because we
call ourselves lady bosses in Ben and Melissa. You're part

(33:12):
of the manscaping team, which when we started, when I
started studying for this interview, my first thought was, how
would you allow or why did you allow yourself to
be a part of a manscaping team when there's a
woman involved. Well, here's the thing. Our name is is
just a really fun, playful play onwards. We're a landscaping

(33:33):
company obviously, and are we're not gender specific. Um, we're
open to everybody, but the boys like to say that
I put the man in manscapers. I do a lot
of the heavy lifting. I do a lot of the
dirty work. I'm usually the one taking out the trash,
driving the truck. So our company is all about everyone

(33:54):
doing everything. Um, non gender specific, and we just thought
it was a really fun, memorable name and we work well.
Our business sort of started as a like LGBT centered
and advertised to business, so like a lot of our
clients originally are like gay men from Chelsea in the city,

(34:17):
and so we needed a name that we thought would
grab people's attention. And a lot of our employees actually
are like shirtless hot guys um, you know, so by
chance or totally by chance, it just happens to be
the people that we know everything. Um well, I mean really,

(34:38):
when it comes down to it, we are the designers,
but when it comes to actually installing a lot of
the projects, we really just need a lot of muscle.
So you know, it doesn't necessarily require us having people
that have a design degree to do some of the
manual labor. So sometimes the manual labor just happens to
be hot guys. You know, Yeah, there's a lot of

(35:00):
heavy lifting that happens. No, but we really didn't want
to be a company that was just some generic landscaping name.
We really wanted to stand out because for us that
was the most important thing starting this whole thing. So
what do you guys do we do landscape design? I
mean we do everything from big bushes, big bushes, big

(35:23):
box with bushes, but we do everything from UH. We
are based out of Williamsburg, Brooklyn. We work all over
New York. We work in Manhattan, the New York area
and we do UH rooftops, terraces, brownstone backyards, suburban backyards, um,
Hampton's everywhere. So our company started as just a small

(35:43):
really side business of Passion Project, and then it just
kept growing with word of mouth and now it's become
our full time thing. And with the TV show now
it's getting like kind of insane, so we have to
like figure out what to do now. So we need
more manscapers, right, and we are redefining what man escaping is.
I love it. It's interesting to me. You know, we

(36:05):
some of us in the room do have a TV background.
I kind of want to start at the beginning with
you all. You know, this is gonna be different than
a lot of segments that we do. I want to
just hear your story and then let's end this segment
on how you got to the place today where you
you have a show about yourselves. You all met, from
my understanding, just to click get the listeners up to
speed at design school, am I right? The two of

(36:27):
us did, James and I did, and Garrett. We all
had mutual friends with Garrett. So James and I met
at f I T doing interior design and we both
worked in the field for many years. And then Garrett
joined our lives as our third best friend and um
he worked in graphic designs. So we all come from
design backgrounds. And and honestly, Ben, one of the main

(36:49):
reasons the three of us is to hang out all
the time every Monday night watching. It was like, really
started this company and I started watching in your season.
Actually that's when I started watching, and I was like, Oh,
he's cute. I like, I'll watch this show changing the
world one episode at a time. Team. But you guys,

(37:15):
but yeah, I, um yeah. All of us had basically
working in offices doing design jobs, and I think the
three of us just finally realized this is not for
us working behind the desk. So with Melon James's backyard,
every year we used to revamp it by just really
going all out, adding plants and just really turning it

(37:37):
into like a little oasis, because basically it was just
a concrete slab with three brick walls on either side,
and then we added plants and then we eventually actually
added an above ground pool and we just really totally
changed the space and we would throw these garden parties
a k a. My birthday party every spring, and um,

(37:58):
people just were like, what do you How did you
guys do this? And we said, we did it ourselves,
and then we slowly just started turning it into a
business from there. Yeah. People would get just be very
impressed by the work that we were doing, like you
should do this for a living. And one of our friends, um,
she couldn't find a landscape designer for under twenty dollars
to come look at her place, and I was like,

(38:18):
we could do that, you know, for for around the
same cost or maybe even less. And that's kind of
how we started with small scale. Now we don't do
anything under that. So but um, you've gone to the
dark side. We've gone to the but you know, you
scale up as you grow with any business, and that's
kind of you know, where we want to be at.
So um yeah, and that's and it's just taken off

(38:41):
because we really had a lot of connections like I
used to work at Ralph Lauren doing store design and
uh well a lot of our friends work in fashion
and all those different worlds, so we always had a
lot of connections and people, you know, people were just
coming out with the name, you know first of all
and really establishing that helped catch attention and then people like, well,

(39:03):
you guys are doing this now, so I guess we
have to hire you. Um, And it's been great ever
since then. Yeah, and then fast forward several years and um,
a friend of James's who works at a production company,
UM loved our dynamic, loved our work, and developed a
TV show out of it. So it kind of fell
into our laps. So we have this great business and

(39:24):
then now we have a great TV show. It's great.
What's the craziest thing you've had to do to someone's
house or the landscape? Well, I mean we like to
say that New York City is a fourth character in
the show. UM, So all of our jobs, regardless of
whether they're very low budget and simple or super extreme
and extravagant, they all take place in New York City.

(39:46):
So the craziness happens by driving to the client's home,
unloading the truck. How do we get this lumber on
top of the building. So those logistical things all turn
a little crazy when we're dealing with cranes and small
elevators and geting our truck toad and just kind of
the craziness of New York really adds to each project,

(40:06):
because I mean, you don't even think about it, but
sometimes you see these really elaborate rooftops with trees and
it looks so beautiful. But you have no idea how
they got it all up there. And sometimes it's like,
you know, there's been instances where we have to actually
have to take the elevator down the floor and then
put the plants on top of the elevator and then
ride it up. So it's always just a crazy adventure
of how to get everything to these spaces. These are

(40:28):
things that New York people are used to, and we go,
why do we live here? I grew up in Indiana
and I'm listening to you guys are now and I'm like,
this is why you're crazy insane to be living in
this place. Um, you all look so young, and I
say that as a compliment, but I also say that
because either you take great care of your skin or

(40:50):
you are young. And now you have a successful business.
From from a business perspective, you have this idea, you
just told us the history, you're working around in the backyard.
You realize you all have a town up for it.
Your friends start to hire you on and now you're
on TV with this skill set. How did you find
time to build this business while at the same time
growing your customer base? As what I mean, you guys

(41:14):
gotta be in your twenties. No, no, oh my god,
thank you. I'm the youngest. Actually I'm about to be
thirty one. And then I mean, do you want to
know our exact ages? I? Um? We. I mean, I
think when you live in New York City, like Mel
and I went to school. Mel actually went back to school.

(41:35):
That's where we met. She's a she's a little bit
older than me, even though you can't tell. UM. I
think when you live in New York there's so much
pressure to succeed, like at such a young age, especially
starting there, Like I moved to New York when I
was nineteen, Um. Garrett, you were fresh out of college.
Mel you were eighteen, UM. And you kind of grow
up very quickly, and you always work like I always

(41:56):
had a job throughout school the entire time. So we
were constantly making connections over the past ten eleven years. Um.
And I think when you start a business, it's so
either sink or swim in New York City that like,
you can have a super successful business within five years.
And we've been able to do that. And I think
it's the really nice combinations of our personality types that

(42:18):
have gotten us to where we are today. Meeting James
is not scared of anything. Take the biggest idea and
throw it at him. He can do it. He will
fake it till he makes it. Not scared of a thing.
Garrett will do the research and study and do his
due diligence and be the most prepared for any project.
And then I'm kind of the logistical person that puts

(42:39):
it all together. So the three of us combined equal
one person. Yes, so one well rounded person. Um. But
I think that those three really strong personalities have gotten
us to where we are today and really excelled us forward.
I think, you know, we're a five year old company,
and I feel like we've have I don't know, a
decade's worth of experience at point at least, if not more.

(43:01):
And I mean a big part of it. Also, living
in New York City is like we put you know,
it's our passion to make sure that all these projects
looks look as amazing as they possibly can. But also,
we've been networking basically since we moved to New York,
and networking has definitely gotten us a lot of the
jobs and connections. Right, So in New York we called networking,

(43:23):
we're called clubbing networking. These two work very hard at
going out. All used to give me so much police work.
You want, I used to give me so much. Like,
you know, we'd go to Fire Island, which is you know,
this sort of like Gay Island zing but this is

(43:48):
gonna be this is gonna be great. But you have
to explain what Fire Island is for the rest of
the world. So Fire Island is uh, it's a barrier
island off the coast of Long Island and you have
to take a ferry there. There's no cars, and it's
sort of like gay summer camp, you know, like you'll
find Garrett and a speed over running down the beach.
Check on Fire Island. Um. And actually Fire Island kind

(44:10):
of we actually get a lot of our design inspiration
from it because it's a beautiful, beautiful place like pine
trees but with the beach and seagrass um. So me
and Garrett have been going there since we've lived in
New York, you know, to go dance and have fun
and actually meet clients. Like we've gotten several clients just
from from going there and connecting with people and they're like, oh,
you guys are doing manscapers. Oh my god, we should

(44:32):
connect or we want to be on your show, or
you know, we have this great project for you and
back to our name. Just everyone's who as they hear
Manscapers is like wait, wait, wait what tell us what
is Manscapers. It's definitely a conversation starter, attention grabber and
fire island for sure, minimum twenty dollars. And I had

(44:56):
a question because I'm bringing on business partners right now
and it's such a hard thing to evaluate what works
and what doesn't. And I really loved hearing how you
guys each bring something to the table, and um, it's
something I also. Uh So I'm an investor and I
invest in startup companies and I also look for great

(45:16):
partnerships in the companies we look we invest in. And
one of the questions I always asked them, and so
I'd be curious what what you guys say is like
who's the boss? Like who has final say? Do you
want to start? Do you want to start a fight
right now? Yeah? Like have you ever gotten into a
huge argument? And how do you resolve that? We give?

(45:37):
We sort of given when we have to, Like somebody
always wins no matter what. And I don't think it's
ever one of us all the time. I agree. I agree.
We are really good about just instinctually knowing when someone
feels really strongly about something, we go okay, fine, um
or we have to Garrett actually on point one percent

(45:58):
more than us. And that was my next suestion, how
did you define the equity? We We just gave it
to him. Honestly, I was like, I don't want that responsibility.
Point three four. Yeah, have final say like if you know,
you know what, maybe I'm going to start using that. Yes, know,

(46:18):
we gave that to you, so don't take advantage. And
here's what I found works best for us is that
all of us are designers. All of us could run
a project start to finish by themselves, and we don't
do that, but we all have the ability to do that. UM.
So if there's a question on design or budget, we
all have an opinion and informed opinion. UM. But what

(46:40):
has really helped us is that we have taken stronger,
clearer roles in what we're best at. UM. So I
feel like that has been really helpful for us as
a group to really define what each of us does,
UM and which which yeah exactly we especially you'll see
this on the show The three of us all have
our roles, so anything that's client relations are really budget related,

(47:03):
as James Mel with anything construction logistics, and then me
with anything plant related. So I mean, if if it's
in one of our special areas, i'd say that person
has the most say yeah, And we don't always consult
each other on everything, you know, if it's in our lane,
we kind of you know know what, and we've default

(47:24):
to each other always. And it's like, I'm not going
to tell Garrett what plants to order for a project,
or I'm not going to tell Mel how to build something,
and they're probably not gonna tell me how to invoice
the client. No, I will never do this is seems
like such a healthy partnership. Well, and and that's a
crazy part is it doesn't. I have three founders at
my company and it's really difficult. I mean it over

(47:48):
communicating has been the key for us. And I'm wondering,
and I know you you're just touching on it. Has
it has it affected your friendships? Not yet? Honestly, I don't.
I don't think it has. It hasn't. I wouldn't say
it's affected our friendships. But it's really interesting how eyes
over here, I really settled in they hear this answer,

(48:10):
I'm like, how do you feel about our friendship? No,
I mean I would say The interesting thing is like
when it comes to work, our relationship is totally different
than it comes than it's our friendship. Like even just now,
like we had lunch together, and I feel like we
will transition to work was off off and real friends
and we don't really necessarily we don't jump back into work,

(48:31):
And I think that's a really good that we're able
to turn that off and on. But when it is
work related, it does get a lot more serious and
it isn't so much more of like having fun like
love you situation. It's a little bit more like I
think a lot of like the the thing that makes
the show interesting actually, to kind of go back to
it is that we have no problem confronting each other

(48:53):
at all. When we started the show, or like, what
this is, Bravo, it needs drama, How is it going
to be dramatic? And one of our producers was like,
there is more than enough drama just in your interactions
with one another, because you guys have no fear in
confronting each other about anything at any moment. And I
think that comes with ten years of friendship before having
a business, because you're just you're used to calling each

(49:15):
other out all the time, and maybe that makes the
relationship healthier. I think that's really healthy. Yeah. Yeah, it's
better to just sort of face the problems than to
avoid them, because then you'll just have a huge blow up.
And we had I found as an investor, like I'm
terrified of investing in boyfriend girlfriends. I'd rather invest in

(49:35):
a marriage like UM. They have been very successful companies
that have come out of marriages, from Um Sugar Fina
to event Bright to House and but we've had boyfriend
girlfriends break up like mid company investor and it's like okay, cool,
Like so you still have a company and you wanted
to work this out and figure it out, and usually

(49:57):
we end up having to sort of force one out.
It's very complicated. So it seems like you guys have
just all the something's working here. I get me vibe
in this room that you guys are good communicators, even
you know, James is saying that, you know, we're not
afraid to confront each other, but we're also not afraid
and very willing and able to take care of each
other and we are a family laundry right. Well, these

(50:20):
two are the godfather of my daughter and I was
unfortunately hospitalized at the end of last year. They literally
lived at my house, took care of my daughter, made
her lunch to school. I mean, they just took over.
So we there's no real separation. This is a family.
This is It doesn't get any closer. I think we
know each other's buttons to such an amazing story. Oh,

(50:41):
I know, they really just took over and there was
no questions asked. It was obviously I'll be there. They
have keys to my house. You know. It's just it's
not there's no separation that you know. It just feels
like talking to you all. It was made for a show,
and so I I want to figure out here. There's

(51:01):
a couple of things I want to talk to about.
One is, when you started this company, was the vision
and the mission? You watched The Bachelor. Obviously you knew
reality television existed, you knew the three of you had
this dynamic um that was charismatic and attractive to many.
Did you think this was going to turn into show?
Was this a pursuit? Was this a business plan or
was this just a luck. I would say I'll answer

(51:23):
this question because I'm probably the one who had the
most interested in making the show right. Um, we mel
and I had worked in TV for a little bit,
working for HTTV doing design shows, and I saw the
immediate attention and success that the hosts got from being
a part of it, similar to The Bachelor, I mean
getting deals and and things like that and making money. Um,

(51:44):
and I knew we had a cool brand that people
would be interested in. So I think that putting yourself
on TV you kind of skip a lot of steps
of having to market yourself for years and years and years.
And we are had already built a good reputation, so
we knew that that was there. But it was really
just getting our name out there to the whole world.
And the show has only been on two weeks now,
and I mean our inboxes, but it's like it's almost unmanageable,

(52:10):
so it works great. No. I think that James really
did see the value of being on TV, and it
took Garrett and I a bit of convincing that this
was the right thing just for us personally. No argument
that it's great for our business, but personally, I think
we were less um sure than James was. But as
far as seeking it out, it really fell on our lap.
We weren't pitching to two different production companies, We didn't

(52:33):
have a real or pilot or anything. Um. It really
happened to us in a sense um and then only
they developed everything and once the ball started rolling, it
started to make a lot more sense for all of us.
So I will say, you really had the vision. We
jumped on board, but you know, we were running our business.
We weren't talking to networks and production companies. So we

(52:54):
feel really lucky in that sense, I mean, and like
we were saying, like our business only five years old.
So for us, the most important thing is getting our
business up and running to the way we want it.
And I think that's always going to be something that
we're continuing to keep doing. It's never gonna we're never
gonna be satisfied with where our business is at. So
the TV show thing, in no way, at least myself,

(53:15):
what was that even Like I wasn't even thinking about that,
but when they said like, oh, let's just do a
video skype call and then we did that and then
they're like Okay, let's just take a meeting with Bravo.
And we're like, okay, sure, let's take a meeting with Bravo.
And then they're like, okay, well, why don't we just
shoot a pilot with you guys were like okay, fine,
let's do that, and then it just kept going. That's
how you saw the whole time. I was like, oh,

(53:38):
we have a TV show from the fifty like we're
on air already, amazing. The first day of filming, James
is like, so first season two, we're probably like okay, okay,
But I don't know. I think that's good to have vision,
and I think it's really good to live a little bit,
you know, not and what's the word I'm looking for,

(53:58):
not um not unrealistically, But you have to have a
big head sometimes to you know, to believe in your
in your business and what you're doing. If you don't
have that confidence, you're probably not going to succeed because
other people will see that that you don't have it.
I think the as there as I do the research here,
you guys, I'm just gonna define you all. If that's okay,

(54:19):
and you give me that right, you're big time. You're
at the top of the game. People are gonna be
looking up to you within the industry. Um, they already are. Right,
landscapers will become talked about business all across the United States.
But for the listeners out there, uh, I know for
me uh and my friends, we used to have little
landscaping businesses in the summer, right, college kids, high school kids,

(54:39):
you know, lawns. UH. Data is showing that that's actually
becoming a better and better business because people are designing
to spend more and more time with their family and
friends and life gets busier, and so they are hiring
out or contracting out um landscapers to help out with
their every day yard needs. Is that a trend you're
seeing uh in New York and just kind of around
the United States? And what ice would you give for

(55:01):
these high school, college students, middle school students, men and
women who are starting their own little landscaping businesses. Well,
I definitely do see the trend getting bigger and bigger, UM,
especially in New York where our space is so limited.
Anytime you have an outdoor space, you want to make
it feel like it's part of your home. And I
think that goes for even people with larger spaces too.

(55:22):
So we get a lot of clients more and more saying, well,
we want this little patio to feel like an extension
of our living room. Um, and they are valuing you know,
that outdoor space and what what elements are for our
kids and where can I cook outside? And where can
I host? And how can I have a you know,
thirty people over whatever the case is. So we are
seeing that trend that people just want to have a

(55:43):
space to to host and have a group. And well,
especially yeah in New York City, I feel like a
big thing is now everyone wants a staycation, not necessarily
you know, go somewhere else. And I mean giving advice
to younger people out there, I would say, it's just, um,
I mean, this is it like follow I mean, I

(56:04):
don't know, follow your dreams. And I do think for
for anyone who's interested in this line of work. UM,
we've really benefited from our design background. And it's not
just maintenance of a plant or how to you know,
keep the lawn trimmed or whatnot, but really having the
vision for what this space can be and then also

(56:27):
knowing the expertise about the plants stuff. People come to
us because they don't have to babysit us with with
the work. It's like, Okay, I know that we're going
to get a full design package from them, and we
can just let them go because we don't know anything
about plants, and that's mostly where our clients are at,
Like they'll have a slight interest in it and be like,
you guys are the experts, you do it, um. Whereas

(56:49):
I think when interior design, a lot of the times
people like I want this sofa with this painting, with
this rug, and people don't really do that to us, Like, well, yeah,
I agree, because a lot of times you know everyone
and shop online and have a Pinterest board and know
what kind of sofa they like and what the color
they want their wall. And with exterior, people are a
little bit lost and they don't know where to start.

(57:11):
So um, you know, but they're going to learn from
backyard envy. Yeah. So there's a big difference we found
between the interior clients as opposed to exterior clients. They
don't feel like they have as much control, they don't
feel like experts. So it's a big reason why we
quit interiors. Yeah, and then I guess, did we answer
that question that great. I mean you benefit like people

(57:34):
would benefit from design from design, and then it's as
far as starting the business. I mean once you have
a couple of projects and you have a portfolio. This
type of work is so sought after in general, and
it's there's there's a higher demand than there are like
people to actually do the jobs usually. I think within
landscape design it's hard to find a good like it's
always hard to find a good contractor, right like, doesn't

(57:56):
everybody have that problem. It's also hard to find a
good escape or and a good landscape designer. It's a
word of mouth is a huge part of the business.
It's great this this podcast before we send you off here, Um,
this podcast today has felt like a podcast to define success.
You guys have found success. You will continue, I believe

(58:17):
to find uh find success. To kind of answer the
last question, and then I'll send everybody else off telling
about your show. I'd like to start with Garrett, go
to Melissa, and then James. What is success to you?
Success to me is, honestly for me, I'd say it's
being happy. I don't think it's necessarily um, finding a

(58:40):
dollar amount or you know, climbing the ladders, to the top.
I'd say for me, it's just finding a place that
you are happy with what you're doing day to day,
because if it's something you have to do every day,
to make sure that you're happy doing it. Um, for me,
I really love feeling a sense of accomplishment, and I

(59:00):
think that's why I've chosen to do such a hands on,
uh job and um, so feeling a daily sense of
accomplishment is what success is to me. Um. When I
worked at other companies before, you know, I just remember
just having a blow feeling going in, having to do
your routine, a blow feeling, you know, leaving the next day.

(59:22):
You know, and projects could be exciting and you could
still take ownership and be happy about it. But um,
with our own business, I feel a huge sense of accomplishment. Um,
almost on a I would say, on a daily basis
at this point, and feel really good about what we're doing.
So that's success to me. Success is Instagram followers obviously.

(59:44):
Um No, That's what I've always said. Yeah, yeah, right,
we know, Ben, Now I think success, yes, follow us
at Manscapers and why um no, I think, um, you know,
we sought out to do something, we sought out to
create something we and to actually be written up and
to be sitting here is successful. And to be able

(01:00:06):
to call press outlets and be able to say, hey,
we want to come in and talk to you guys
and be taken seriously. To me, that success because when
you can have some name recognition and people will want
to sit down and talk to you, and you have
a seat at the table, that to me is success
and then everything else with money and everything will grow

(01:00:26):
from there. You always have a seat at the Lady
Boss and Ben table. Thank you if you're out there listening.
New exterior design series Backyard Envy, recently premiered on Bravo
Thursdays ten nine Central. James Garrett and Melissa thanks coming in.

(01:00:49):
Thank You. Today's podcast just seemed to be one where
we're trying to define success. It means different things to
different people, as we have found out. Nicole at the
beginning of the podcast said, figuring out what having it
all means to you and not what having it all

(01:01:12):
means to society. Find out how to love what you do.
Garrett from Manscaper says success is being happy. Melissa adds
in daily sense of accomplishment and all that you do,
and James says to create something that is worth talking
about and being taken seriously. James said something at the
end that I think is important as we move on

(01:01:33):
with this week, finding a reason to have a seat
at the table. And here's the truth we all do,
especially you, Jesse Draper, who defined success as doing something
for you and also you can be a mom and
be a successful businesswoman. Jesse, what do you think? I
I think it's true. I think you can be both

(01:01:56):
and I think we just have to figure out how
to do that and maintain our own happiness and make
sure we're investing in ourselves. How do you define success, Ben?
I define success into always having a purpose, a pursuit,
and a path to get there. I love it. I
think that you know that is a great note to

(01:02:18):
end on. I'm your resident Lady Boss Jesse Draper and
I'm just Ben. Follow Lady Bosses and Ben on I
Heart Radio or wherever you listen to podcasts Hi Hi Radio.