October 9, 2025 • 41 mins
It’s time to meet the ultimate Modern Woman when Bozoma Saint John enters the O.R!
Bozoma is a marketing executive and branding expert and she’s ready to break it all down for Becca and Tanya, starting with rule #1: Trust your gut.
Plus, Bozoma shares her experience as the CMO of Netflix and Uber and she has some crucial advice for any artists or people starting a brand!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Scrubbing In with Becca Tilly and Tanya rad and iHeartRadio
and two time People's Choice Award winning podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hello everybody, we are scrubbing In. We have a very
exciting guest today. She really, I would say, is the
embodiment of what we strive for this podcust.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
To me, she is the embodiment of modern woman energy.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
She was a CMO at Netflix, CMO at Uber. I mean,
she has just done so many things. She's on the
Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, She's now on this new
show on Brand with Jimmy Fallon.
Speaker 5 (00:39):
She has a book, she has her own hair Caroline.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
Speaker 5 (00:43):
I don't really feel like I feel like we should
just get right into talking to her.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Yes, no, no, no stalling needed, No stalling needed.
Speaker 5 (00:51):
Everyone welcome, buzz and mus saying, John, we have been
so excited to have you on the podcast. You are
someone you know, Tanya's what your tagline? Your mission is
modern woman Yeah, energy, and I can't think of someone
who has who represents that more that we've had on
(01:12):
the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Thank you well, because I feel like, Okay, so you
have this new show, you have so much going on.
Speaker 6 (01:19):
I have so much going on, so I do want to.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Dive into because I also hate the question of like
how do you do it all? Because nobody asks a
man that. So it's like, I don't really like you're
doing it all. Yes, you're doing all these things. I'm
doing it, But I feel like, so for people that
may not watch The Real Housewives or may not know you,
you are such a powerhouse business woman, like you have
(01:41):
done so much and particularly in marketing. Yes, how did
you get your start in all of this?
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Ah, it's such a it's such a strange question to
me because it's like I don't know one marketer who's like, oh,
I went to school and studied marketing right right, anybody
who says that, you know, Like, you know, I was
in English and FM studies major with who was also
pre med.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
So I was going to med school and I took
the MCAT like I did. I was doing all the things,
and I decided to take a year between undergrad and
going to med school. And I was from College Springs, Colorado.
I went to school in Connecticut. I was like, Okay,
I'm going to go to New York City trying to
see what that's about. I knew one person there, like
(02:27):
one person, and she had graduated the year before me,
and she was at Columbia Film School getting her master's.
And so I struck up a deal because also my
parents were like, we are absolutely not funding them.
Speaker 6 (02:39):
I don't even know what you think you're doing.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
And I made a deal with her and her roommate
that if they let me sleep on the couch, I
would and if they bought the food, I would cook
and clean, okay, And so that was our agreement. And
I just founded the pavement and called the temp agencies
and did odd jobs, you know, hoping and praying that
I would just make enough money so that I went
(03:03):
starve and could make it through the year and sort
of just give myself some space where I went to
med school because I knew that once you get to
med school, that's twelve years, you know what I mean
of like life that you are studying and working and
not sleeping until you have your own like you know,
your career that you can not relax in, but you know,
(03:25):
you just have a little more normalcy. And I just
wasn't ready to do any of that. And so one day,
like the magic destiny moment happened, right, which I feel
like happens for all of us, just some of us
miss it. And I called the Temp agency and they
told me that Spike Lee had fired his assistant and
that he needed someone to come and answer the phones
(03:46):
at the reception for a few days. I said, great, fantastic,
And I go there and it's not his production company.
It's a new ad agency that he's opened in partnership
with DDB Worldwide. Ddb's the agency that Madmen was made on,
and so it's storied. I mean it's like on Madison Avenue.
It's between forty ninth and fiftieth. I mean it is
(04:06):
prime time, you know.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
And so I walk in there and it is just.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Like classic advertising space, like everybody's creative.
Speaker 6 (04:18):
Spike is smart and sharp, you know, he walks in
the door. You can feel the aura.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
And that day he walked in, he looked at me
and he was just like, God, damn it. They sent
us Miss America, you know, because I was sitting there
with like my hair like pulled back in the tight buns,
prying like the only suit I had, which happened to
be gray and polyester. And that is not a made
up story, okay, and my little pearls because I want
to be professional.
Speaker 6 (04:45):
And I looked at him kind of.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Like, you must not know who I am, first of all,
to be twenty two again, you know what I mean?
You know what I mean, because I literally just like
Miss America. I was like, I'm a triple major from Wesleyan.
I'm studying English and African American studies. I've read all
of the big authors everyone that you would know and
that you've read, I've written about them.
Speaker 6 (05:08):
And I'm also going to med school, so I don't
know who you're talking to you.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And he was carrying this, you know, stack of paper
under his arm, and I was like, and what is that, sir?
And he said it was his new script for Vamboozoo.
First of all, the fact that he was even answering
my questions is also, I think just a matter of
shock that he had because he was just like, hold on,
so she was Miss America and now she's got a
mouse on her and she's saying all kind of stuff.
Speaker 6 (05:35):
And I just asked him if I.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Could read it, and so he kind of like incredulously,
you know, threw it on the desk and I went home,
I took a red pen to it.
Speaker 6 (05:48):
I marked it up.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I gave him points on character development and grammar, SENTI structure.
Speaker 6 (05:59):
And I took him back to the office like a
couple of days later.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
It was supposed to be my last day, right answering
the phones, and he literally was like looked at me
like he was gonna strangle me.
Speaker 6 (06:09):
I mean, he was just like, you took a red
pen to my script, Like are you out of your mind?
And I was like, oh, I didn't know. That's not
what I was supposed to do.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
By the way, the office was like open floor plan type,
and so when I tell you that, everybody had held
their breath, you know.
Speaker 6 (06:23):
And that's when I knew I was in trouble because
I was like, oh, oh, was I not supposed to
do that?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
So he grabs a script, he stomps off into his office.
He had, like the one office that had a door,
slams it.
Speaker 6 (06:35):
I'm sitting there and I'm.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Thinking like, do I take my purse now and leave
or do I wait to be told to leave, you
know what I mean. So I was just kind of
sitting there tense waiting. It felt like I had waited
for like four hours, but I swear it was probably
thirty minutes. And he opens the door and he was like,
he made some good points. You should stick around.
Speaker 6 (06:53):
Wow, And that was it.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
The rest is history. Like twenty five years later, I'm
still in the business.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
So was your mentality like you do you not find
situations or people intimidating in the sense of feeling emboldened
to ask questions? Or did was that like youth and
just being I think.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
It's a combination of things. I think it's a combination
of like naivete and also nurture. Ye know, my parents
are very bold. My dad was a orphan by the
time he was fourteen, from a very small village in
the western part of Ghana. Like there is no percentage
(07:39):
for people like him who make it out of there.
It doesn't exist, you know. And very very long story short.
He has two PhDs, moves to the US, raised four daughters.
I mean, like it just boldness is part of the DNA,
you know, you have to have SMA audacity in order
to think that, like, oh, I'm from this place and
(08:00):
no one is gonna tell me that I can't make no. Yeah,
and my mother much the same. I mean, she's a
fashion designer by trade. She chose to be a homemaker
and she you know, it's like she never let me
sit in like any kind of wallow. Yeah, you know,
like when we moved to Caldo Springs, Colorado's I was
I was twelve, and we were coming straight from Ghana,
(08:25):
although we had lived in many places before that and
had a very strong self like sense of self, you know,
and I was very surprised by my classmates and by
the teachers or even my principal, who were.
Speaker 6 (08:39):
Just like they had this pity for me.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Oh you know, like it's poor thing she's come from Africa, right,
because what they saw right was like freaking nineteen eighty nine,
they had Sally's brothers on TV talking about these children
are worth once.
Speaker 6 (08:57):
In a day. By the way, the commercials still exists.
I hate those, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
And it's like, you know, you've got the distended bellies
and figs on eyes and it's like the mission trips
and let's go dig a Well, oh.
Speaker 6 (09:09):
My god, are you kidding me? Is that the only
thing that you know about Africa?
Speaker 5 (09:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Like you don't know that it like started civilization, that
the clothes you're wearing right now that the weaving method
came from Africa? Are you not aware of like music
and food and like fashion and sports? Like are you
not aware? And I knew that at twelve, Like I
looked at those people were just like, why.
Speaker 6 (09:32):
Are you feel sorry for me? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
You're like, oh, your English is so good. I'm like,
we speak five languages. I'm like, are you talking about
you know? And so I think a combination of yes,
nurture for sure, and then also the nature of who
my parents are in the DNA that I have have
made me very bold. But then on top of it,
(09:54):
like my like cause you can be given those things
and then not do anything right. Yeah, So I do
take some credit for who I am.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
Right, Like, you get the tools and how you use them, yeah, and.
Speaker 6 (10:05):
You cannot apply them right, you can decide not to
do anything with it.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
I think that fear also paralyzes, you know, the fear
of one thing. I feel like that my family is
something that I've seen and like just the trajectory of
my family is the fear of trying something and failing,
as opposed to thinking, just try it and if it happened, made.
Speaker 6 (10:25):
Real stick, you know.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
Yeah, But I do think it is interesting because our education,
our education system, that.
Speaker 6 (10:31):
Is what we saw absolutely. So people see, yeah, people
see which is today.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
But I tell people that, like, you know, I take
a bunch of friends with me to Ghana every year
every December. I mean when I say I'm taking friends,
I take one hundred and twenty five people. Wow, I mean,
and we are having a good time.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
And I cannot tell you.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Just yesterday I had this conversation, you know where somebody's
just like, ooh, so, you know, like, what's like am
I going to And I'm like, you backpacked through Europe
when you were freaking like nineteen Okay, you were staying
in hostels.
Speaker 6 (11:08):
I'm telling you that there's a five star hotel.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
You'll be driven around like we're gonna be part of
drinking bove.
Speaker 6 (11:14):
Okay, You're worried about Africa. Look you are you serious
right now?
Speaker 5 (11:19):
You know?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So it's just like it's still I feel like that
conversation has really not changed that much because you know, unfortunately,
Africa has been the victim of bad marketing for four
hundred plus years, and so I think that it would
change overnight. No, of course not, but I think it
requires people like me, people who have grown up on
(11:41):
the continent, people who are curious about the continent.
Speaker 6 (11:44):
To actually change any of that understanding and behavior. Well, yeah,
to educate yourself into like hell yeah, yeah, it's interesting
and go to the freaking Himalayas. Don't know anybody over there.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Why did you know that you could go to Egypt,
you know, or go to Tanzania, Like, I don't understand why.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
It's interesting though, that you said marketing marketing for Africa,
Like I because of like your position and kind of
like where you've been in your profession. Do you do
you kind of look at everything through a marketing everything everything.
Speaker 6 (12:16):
Because everything is It's so true, everything is.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Do you feel like marketing is is the the end
all be all for any business?
Speaker 6 (12:25):
Yeah, for sure, it's it's the it's the center. It's
like it's like it's like.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
It's like fail or not fail based on marketing.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Based on marketing. Absolutely, you can have and there are
so many examples. You can have the best products on
the planet. If it's marketing badly, you fail.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
Right, you know what I mean? Like there's rarely any
product that succeeds to any kind of like real level
with bad marketing with that without any good marketing.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Yeah, I wanted to tell people that are listening, and
I want to get it right in terms of like
your creds, but in terms of your CMO of huge
(13:17):
companies Netflix.
Speaker 6 (13:18):
Uber, More Music.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I mean, so these are all these are all.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Huge companies with lots of success. Yes, But are you
somebody that when you're kind of like, do you ever
scroll on social media and like see businesses, new businesses
and be like, oh, I want to like I wish
I could talk to them, right, I do.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
That all the time. Do you really my job at uber?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Oh you reach out to them?
Speaker 6 (13:40):
Yeah? Because I was like, first of.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
All, I'm a nerd of this, you know, like I
am the person who goes to the cocktail party and
only wants.
Speaker 6 (13:50):
To talk about business.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, I am that person. I love that, Like, don't
catch me in the corner. I will not ask you
about your kids, you know what I mean. I'm gonna
be like, so, yeah, that business, you know, and maybe
if you don't know what I'm talking about, then probably
gonna move on to somebody else.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
You know.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
But what did you reach out to Uber and say?
Speaker 6 (14:08):
Well?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Because I so at the time, I was head of
global marketing at Apple Music launched Apple Music. Then the
keynote like highly successful. Everything was going great. Tim Cook
does like one cover a year, and that year was
Fast Company. He was on the on the cover and
I was on the inside cover.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I mean like crazy were great.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
And I had one office in Cupertino and one in
La And I was sitting in the office in Cupertino.
Speaker 6 (14:33):
I remember it is like like it happened yesterday. I
was sitting in the office in Cupertino.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Uh, and I was scrolling like Facebook or something, and
I was seeing all the delete Uber craziness, you.
Speaker 6 (14:46):
Know, delayed Uber. You know, it's like get rid of them,
bring them down.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
And crazy enough, like maybe I don't even say two
weeks before that, I'd been in a meeting where we
were talking about the success of Uber and how amazing
of a company it was, because it was like this, like,
you know, just came from nowhere and you know, changed
the entire way that we operate anything. And again, at
the time, I was ahead of global marketing at Apple Music,
(15:12):
which was also disruptor because people had been buying songs
for nine nine cents per song on iTunes. iTunes was
the mass market leader. Ninety eight percent of the market
came through iTunes, and we were telling people, hey, pay
nine ninety nine and get like streaming of every song that's.
Speaker 6 (15:31):
Ever been recorded in the history of man.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
It was like people did not understand what we're talking about,
and we're trying to convince some of this.
Speaker 6 (15:37):
So I was over there looking at Uber, like, now,
how they do that, you know what I mean? How
they convince people to try something new?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Taxies have been around forever, but it's like, now I
gotta go on my phone and order the thing, and
then it's gonna come.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
To me, like how, you know. And I was sitting
there and I saw all of the like the leade
Uber stuff and it was falling fast. I mean it was.
It was pure destruction.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So I called Ariana Huffington, who happens to be a
friend and she also sat on the board of Uber,
and I was like, girl, oh my god, tell me
what's happening, you know, And she's like, oh, Darling, it's
a disaster.
Speaker 6 (16:11):
And I was like, get me Travis.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Kaldik, like I want to talk to him, you know,
and I want to know what's going on, like I
and maybe I could help, you know. I was like,
who is running marketing over there? You know, and she's like,
I'll get you a lunch. So actually we took lunch
here in La He flew down from San Francisco, and
it was supposed to be an hour lunch. It was
eight hours worth of like argument, I mean, like throw down,
(16:34):
like I'm my best, like you know, advice, I'm trying, and.
Speaker 6 (16:39):
I'm just like this grateful motherfuck you know, like who doesn't.
Speaker 5 (16:43):
Listen to me? You know?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
But he he had pushed back, and he did have
some good points about certain things, and so then I would,
you know, rejigger And then before he knew it, I
was I was here on a napkin writing things down
and drawing diagrams and all.
Speaker 6 (16:57):
Kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And at the end of eight hours, he was like,
come work for Uber and I was like, I don't know,
but something in me was like, yeah, that's where you're going.
Speaker 6 (17:08):
I was like, yes, I go home.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I'm like, but things are so good. Did you made
the switch? Because I could feel it in your gut,
in my gut, my.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Intuition told me, and everybody said don't go. Literally everyone
my own mother was like.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
Oh my God, my child, like she's ruining her life,
you know.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
And I was like, like, have this amazing thing going
and then you're going to delete?
Speaker 6 (17:35):
Or are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I was sitting at Apple. I was on the inside
cover of Fast Company with Tim talking about She's great.
I had been on the stage at the Worldwide Developers Conference.
Speaker 6 (17:46):
People knew who I was.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I was making my mark, and yet your gut said go.
Speaker 6 (17:52):
I said go.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
And it was very, very scary to listen to my
gut because everyone, even Ariana.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
Was like.
Speaker 6 (18:02):
You might want to, you know, like, and I was like, God,
I think I'm going to resign.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
I did.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Can I ask what some of the points tour that
that you were like, I want to I want to
turn this around, like what were your ideas because if
I see some something or some brain getting canceled, especially
one of that size.
Speaker 6 (18:23):
Yeah, I'm like my I'm like you were.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Chaos.
Speaker 6 (18:30):
I'll tell you. There were a number of things.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So one, I mean, look, I and I don't, you know,
pretend to wear a cape rank like that. But I
am very intentional with where I am and what I'm doing,
you know. And I knew that as one of the
only senior black women in tech, like in any visible
position that wherever I went would get attention.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
M M.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
I also knew that at the time Uber, one of
the things that they were struggling with was diversity of
anybody of color and of women in their C suite.
When I got there, I was like, they were like
eight bros. You know what I'm saying, Yeah, like one woman.
And it was just like there were so many things
(19:18):
that were wrong with the company. And at the same time,
I was looking at corporate life and all of the
struggles that I'd had even at Apple.
Speaker 6 (19:26):
Let's not get it twisted that.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I was like, you know what, like y'all want to
point fingers at this company and say that it is
doing wrong. It doesn't represent women, it doesn't represent people
of color. They don't treat their drivers well, they're like,
you know, unethical, they have all these bad practices. I
want you to show me where Nirvana is. Like, please,
(19:51):
one company come and say, oh, we have it perfectly right.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
One company do that. And I was like, you know what,
if I can go to Uber and represent myself well
turn around.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
A business, then you can't tell me that not any
other company in these United States of America or globally
can do that, you must And so part of it
was like, you know the chip that I have on
my shoulder that I was like, yeah, I'm going like
you think you think I'm afraid of.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
It, Like it was like challenge, You're like yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
And then plus, like I said, I'm a nerd of
this industry and this business, and so seeing what I
was seeing, I was like, you know, the battle and
this was the argument that I had with Travis. I
was like, the battle that you're fighting isn't against Lyft
and whether or not their engineers are finding a faster
way to get cars to people, because at the time,
(20:44):
it was like you call the uber and it says
it's coming to get you in seven minutes, right, and
then Lyft was like six minutes, and you know what
I mean, Like, I was like, that's that's not the
challenge you have. That's where everybody's focused right now. People
don't trust you, they don't like you.
Speaker 6 (21:00):
And guess what we.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Forgive brands and companies that we like, We give them grace.
And so what he had to do at the time,
what the company had to do at the time was
rebuild trust. And that's not done through the algorithm, and
so that was the argument we're having. And so I
was like, shoot, look, what I'm gonna come do is
build trust, like have people trust the company. And then
(21:25):
I got there and two weeks later he was fired.
So it was it was boo, that was a hard
that was a hard time after he was gone.
Speaker 6 (21:34):
So what happened?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
This goes in my movie in my Bible, No kidding, No,
it was like I keep saying, it was like Lord
of the Flies, you know what that book where it's
like all the kids are like left.
Speaker 6 (21:50):
On an island and then they survive. Yeah, they answers
survive and like governing themselves.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
It was like that.
Speaker 6 (21:55):
Everybody was out for themselves.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, yeah, trying to do what they're doing. But I
still had my mission, you know. And also at the
time I knew that all the vitrol that was coming
for Uber, I was like, I knew that other companies
deserved it as well, it wasn't just Uber. And so
my press like mission and strategy became I'm gonna get
(22:23):
in front of every publication, every stage, every every possible
person who has a platform and tell them about what
we need to do to change these corporate environments to
people like me feel comfortable here and they can actually succeed.
And so that's what I did. And the crazy thing
is that people this is like kind of like a
(22:47):
weird The people couldn't attack me, you know what I mean.
I almost felt like I had teflon, because what are
you gonna say to me? Like if I if you're
interviewing me and You're like, why would you go to this?
Speaker 6 (23:00):
They're treating women badly and.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
People are cutting and I'm like, oh, yeah, but if
I'm there, yeah, how you're not there?
Speaker 5 (23:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:07):
And if you think they're treating me so badly, why
don't you come over here and help me? Very few
people were like, oh, yes, you know what, Yeah, I'm
gonna quit my job and come over there too. And
so so I was able to get the brand message
across the objective of what we're trying to do, any
policies that we're trying to change. Man, I was able
(23:28):
to skate and get all those messages across because nobody
was coming for me.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
They couldn't.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, And so it became the perfect opportunity for me
as a marketer to sharpen my skill, you know, in
terms of like, okay, does this theory work in terms
of like building trust and what are the ways in
which I'm going to do that over time and then
amplify me as an executive. My face was everywhere. No,
(23:55):
it was like I was on the cover of the
New York Times. It will this woman say?
Speaker 6 (24:00):
Were okay challenge? Yeah? Yeah, the Sunday Times. I'm like,
I guess I will. You know.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
But that's the point is that, Like so it was
it was a twofold benefit, you know, which is one
I could strapping my craft and two I.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
Could also become very well known for the job I
was doing. Okay, so you are.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Like you, you are an entity in and of itself,
like you yourself right, and you are a business woman,
You're respected, you have all this stuff. How did the
Real Housewives come into play? Because I feel like, as
a brand, it's not quite your brand.
Speaker 6 (25:01):
Let's put it this way. Which is that.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
And some of this is like in reverse, which is
that there really hasn't been any job I've taken where
people have cheered for me.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
I'm going there.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I just told you the story of Uber. But the
end of that year that I was at Uber, everybody
was like, oh my god, you could do it. Of course, yes,
the brand turn around fos, you know, like like there,
there hasn't been a job. Even when I left Pepsi
to go to Beats Music, which wasn't acquired by Apple
(25:35):
to become Apple Music, people didn't applaud because I was
also going through a really tough personal time.
Speaker 6 (25:42):
My husband had just died of cancer. I was in
deep grief.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
It was like three months after his death, and everybody
was like, you're you know, you need to sit down
and grieve and go to a cave and like find
yourself and then you can make major life decisions. And
I was like, nope, I'm taking my year old and
I'm out of here, you know. And to me, it's
like these moves that I've made have been pure instinct
(26:09):
and intuition.
Speaker 6 (26:12):
I don't ask people their opinion and what I should do.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
That's very interesting.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
I think a lot of people, myself included, always absolutely.
Speaker 6 (26:22):
And you shouldn't do that.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
How the hell would they know how to advise you.
They're only advising you based on their own perspective of
the fear that they have for you. I'm not even
say that these are haters who love you, who are like,
don't do that, Oh my god, like, oh no, wait,
wait for six months, make sure the market is more stable,
you don't get some more money and then you can
do the thing.
Speaker 6 (26:44):
Or you're starting to get popular over here, don't go
try that over that thing over there? What if it fails.
They're not telling you because they hate you they want
you to do badly. They're telling me because they love you.
They don't want you to fall down.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Yeah, And that's the point I've always felt like people
like some soon you ask people, they're projecting their fear
for you, yes, and do it. I don't know, but
I was gonna ask, how do you learn to taste
your Like how do you not get into the head
space of needing someone to tell.
Speaker 6 (27:13):
You what first? And this is like the hardest thing,
which is that you've got to actually not do that,
like just don't just don't ask me, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
I'm like, I'm not saying trust yourself first. I'm saying,
don't ask first. So it's like, you know you're gonna
take you know, you have an opportunity to take this
job or date this person or whatever, and you're gonna
go ask your friends, why are you doing that?
Speaker 6 (27:37):
Don't do that?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
You know, It's like part of it is the discipline
of like sitting with yourself and being like what do
I want?
Speaker 6 (27:44):
Mm hmm?
Speaker 1 (27:45):
You know it's like what do I want? I promise
you you have the answer already, I promise you. Like,
if nothing else, just look at my damn life.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
Man.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
You know, every decision that I've made has been because
I have trusted myself. You can ask my mom, you
can ask myself. So you can ask my sixteen best friends.
Speaker 6 (28:02):
They will tell you.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I don't ask them should I do this? Should I
quit this job? Should I wear this outfit? Should I
date this person? I don't ask if their opinion. Now,
when I'm in the job, I'll be like do I
look good?
Speaker 6 (28:16):
Yeah, that's fine, right, But it's I.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Don't ask, And my intuition has become so strong in that,
like I know immediately when like I meet a person,
or I walk into a room, or I'm being offered
a deal whether or not I should take it.
Speaker 6 (28:31):
I know it immediately.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Now sometimes I try to rationalize with myself, they're like, ooh, girl,
it's not a good idea because.
Speaker 6 (28:38):
X, Y and Z thing. But I always know.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I always know, and it is so hard because a
lot of times those are really good opportunities on paper,
you know, or like it looks like danger and you
shouldn't go over there. And so when I was done
with corporate life, I knew it. And when it was
time for me to leave Netflix, I knew it. Now
(29:02):
did I want to do it? No, because I'm a
single mom who takes care of her parents and has
a lot of responsibility, and it's not the type of
thing you just get up and walk away from when
your global chief marketing officer Netflix making a lot of
money and I've got lots of homes, and.
Speaker 6 (29:20):
So it wasn't natural for me to be like, you
know what, I'm going to leave this.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
But I knew I had to one because I wanted
to write my book and I wanted to write it
because I needed to get my memoir out. I needed
it out of my body, you know. And part of
that need was that people look at me or look
at my career and they're just like, oh, yes, well
you know, you climb the corporate ladder and you got this,
you got that, And I'm like, you don't know the
(29:46):
depths in which I've been, and that if I can
be in those depths and rise, so can you. Because
this isn't like how to get to the corner office
in heels book the boss check.
Speaker 6 (29:58):
This is not that book. This is the downtrodden book.
This is the book that tells me about grief, that
lets you see my pain. That's like, hey, look. And
then the next day I woke up and I did
That's that's that book.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
And so for me, I knew I couldn't do the
job I was doing in Netflix and also open myself
up to all of that the chasm of emotion that
I needed to tap into to write the book, because like,
how do you do that on the weekend and then
go back to the office on Monday.
Speaker 6 (30:27):
You can't do it?
Speaker 5 (30:28):
Well, I was gonna say, you're in these roles where
you're not, I would imagine, is a weakness in those
rules day to day, and then you're trying to open
up this deep part of your soul and life.
Speaker 6 (30:40):
No you can't do it, Yeah, you can't do it.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
And I think for me it's like even after the
book was published and I've promoted the hell out of
it and I was done and sitting in my house
and thinking should I go back? You know, and a
few people have been circling. So I was taking meetings.
The last one I took was in Paris. Really big
job and the last thing to do is to meet
(31:06):
the board. I was sitting in my hotel room. Board
meeting in two days, and I was like, I don't
want to. I was like, oh, but my brain was like, well,
go meet with the board, and then when to make
you the offer? Then you decline, you know what I mean.
Speaker 6 (31:21):
Please get the offer first. I was like, I don't
want this job.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Wasting my time and I'm wasting their time. I should
just tell them. I struggled back and forth all night.
Now that's the time when I could have called a
girlfriend and been like, girl, I'm thinking, like, what do
you think I should do?
Speaker 6 (31:36):
Should I go to the meeting? And then of course
my friends would have been like, go to the meeting,
you know, take the to the thing. But I knew
I I knew I didn't have it.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I didn't want it, and so I wrote the email
in the middle of the night, took the first flight
out in the morning, and went home.
Speaker 6 (31:51):
And then I got here and I was like Oh God,
what have I done?
Speaker 5 (31:55):
Yo?
Speaker 6 (31:55):
Yeah? And a few weeks later I get an email
from Bravo. Oh wow, and they're like, hey, we've been
trying to get you for a long time. No way, No,
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
They're like, but you haven't been available because the companies
you worked for, like, we try to get to you,
and you know, everybody blocks us.
Speaker 6 (32:16):
And I was like, oh, yeah, well I'm right here.
I'm not doing anything.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
And the meeting I had with them was one about
the question you asked, which is just like, you know,
your my reputation and like, is that the kind of like,
you know, person that I want to be perceived as.
And I think because of who I am and the
experiences I've had and not having the privilege of, you know,
(32:42):
being part of the majority, I've really been given everybody
the bird for a long time.
Speaker 6 (32:48):
Like I don't subscribe to anybody's box. It really don't.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
I've never fit in the box. Do you know how
many times I've been in like meetings or a review
where somebody's like, oh, you know, if you were just
a little more demure, if you were just a little nicer,
if your voice didn't you know, rise every time you
were passionate, you didn't use your hands so much, if
you would wear less loud colors, you wouldn't wear that leather,
(33:15):
if you would only pull your hair back, if you
could only make it straight, Godly, I'm telling you.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
So it's like all of that. Yes, I could have
taken that on, and many people do. I don't even
blame them for doing it.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Many people conform because it's so much scarier to not
conform and to be out here and shunned. But it
has become my superpower. And so in that meeting with them,
I didn't look at the housewives and say, oh, how
am I going to fit into this group? I said, oh, okay,
I guess my job is to come change it. Yeah,
my job is to come and show a different type.
Speaker 6 (33:49):
Of woman, because yeah, why do I need to be
like them? Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
It's like I'm great, Like I belong in spaces because
I'm amazing and because.
Speaker 6 (33:59):
I I add to situations. And so have there been
housewives who've been business people? Sure?
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Do any of them have twenty five years of marketing
success and in the Hall of Fame, No, not a
single one. Do any of them talk vulnerably about certain
parts of their lives that you know, maybe are not
so great to talk about, like fertility and fibroids and
being a widow.
Speaker 6 (34:26):
No, so I'm going to do it.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
And I do think there's something very special about the
relationship of women at this particular age in their late thirties, forties, fifties.
It's a very special time.
Speaker 5 (34:42):
You know.
Speaker 6 (34:42):
It's like you're in this weird.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Crux where it's like you're taking care of children maybe
or your children are transitioning to other more responsible times
in life. You're dealing with aging parents. Maybe you've had
a marriage, maybe it's going south. Maybe it's ten years
(35:06):
in and you're trying to figure out the spark again.
Maybe you don't have a husband and you're trying to
this dating life but you're old. Yeah, I was like,
And then you've got your friends and.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
They're all going through this hormonal boat.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
And dealing with all these things. So it's not even
so much that I don't appreciate conflict. I think conflict
is necessary, Like that's what we are as human beings.
Conflict comes with the thing. But do we have to
have conflict over petty things? Right?
Speaker 5 (35:32):
No?
Speaker 6 (35:32):
We don't.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
And so my feeling wasn't that like, Oh, I'm gonna
come into Housewives and it's going to ruin my reputation
because I'm now going to be out here like having
these petty ass conversations like I'm not doing that, yep.
Speaker 6 (35:44):
And it's like, honestly, like even the first few.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Shoots that we had, I got feedback, you know from
one of the producers like, Hey, you know, you're gonna
have to really.
Speaker 6 (35:54):
Get in there, and I was just like, no, I
don't think so.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
I think if you want me in there, then they
got to rise to my level, like or We're gonna
have to have conversations that are a little smarter because
I'm not going here and I'm not explaining myself, you know, right,
And that for me is the way that I've always
conducted myself. And so my friends who see me on
the show, or anybody who's ever worked with me, they'll
point and be like, oh, that's boths.
Speaker 6 (36:17):
We know her, We've seen that girl before, you know,
that's nothing new to them.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
And so when people are in the you know, in
the Housewives like sort of world, are like, oh my gosh,
how did you why are you coming in you did
this and you said that they was just like mm hmm, yep.
If you've known me the last like thirty years, you
know too.
Speaker 5 (36:36):
But here I am when they reach out to you
did your marketing cause you were saying you see everything
to the marketing lens. Yeah, because house Lives has been
a brand for so long, and yeah, it's been very
much the same. I would say, like from the beginning,
there hasn't been much shift. Did your brain go like,
did you start is there ideas when you think about
(36:57):
the housewives brains of all I want to change this not.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Necessary about the brand, but well because the people are
the brand. And so my thought was like, yes, starting
with representation of me, like you know, where are the
corporate baddies at the one who like their boobs and
also have like a good resume And I didn't see that,
(37:20):
And so my thought was like, yeah, in order to
continue to evolve not only the brand of Housewives, but
at the end of the day, marketing is storytelling. So
in order to evolve the story of women of this
particular age and taking them out of this really destructive
(37:43):
concept that they can't have reasonable conflict and that they
don't know how to manage their emotions and be true
friends to each other.
Speaker 6 (37:54):
Or mortal enemies and do it with some gusto.
Speaker 5 (37:58):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
It's like we have to change that story. Like, like
I told you, I have sixteen best friends. They're all
about my same age, and we're dynamic.
Speaker 5 (38:09):
You know.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
It's like all of us are going through like all
of these various challenges in life, and we don't all
get along all of the time. But there is grace,
you know for those hard moments. There are the you
know sleepovers where it's like, look, I'm gonna help my
girl out.
Speaker 5 (38:30):
You know.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
It was my best friends who showed up at my
house the day my husband died. They slept in the
front of my bed. They're the ones who washed my kid.
They're the ones who did the dishes and cooked the
food that I.
Speaker 6 (38:41):
Would not eat.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
No, like, we have enough drama in our lives that
we can still showcase that without worrying about when somebody's
late to dinner and fight about that.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
Yeah, it does have to be so fabricated because there's
enough going on in life such real.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
And that's the thing that really support Actually when I
joined was that I think, like everybody else. My assumption
was that there must be like producer led stories, you
know what I mean, or like they must like you know,
go and go, you in the back and like, oh,
you know what she said.
Speaker 6 (39:15):
But the thing is that.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Now I understand why people fall in love on like
love is blind and all these other things where you're
just like how could you you know, because you're it's
such an intense amount of time. You know, we filmed
for like three months, three and a half months, and.
Speaker 6 (39:34):
Six days a week.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
You are spending eight hours probably with these women, you know,
in either as a group or in various conversations. And
I don't come over to your house and we're like, oh,
so tell me about that banana bread you were baking.
Speaker 6 (39:47):
It's like why is your husband such a dog? What's
wrong with your kids?
Speaker 5 (39:52):
You know?
Speaker 1 (39:53):
And so you're you're jumping into really deep, deep conversation
right away all of the time. Like by the time
I was done with the first season, I had talked
to those women more than I talked to my sisters.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Yeah you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Yeah, And I knew more about what was going on
in their lives for that moment of time than I
did any of my friends, and so when people have
conflict with each other, it makes sense to me because
the emotions are running deep. We're talking about very vulnerable things,
and that's what I'm saying, like, I just want us
to continue to elevate that conversation so we can get
(40:29):
to like some real meat of what all of us.
Speaker 6 (40:31):
Deal with it.
Speaker 4 (40:33):
So when you were on So, was it that role
or that like job, I call it a job even
though yeah, I mean it is that got you the
job for on Brama Jimmy Fallon.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
So they saw you on Housewives and like we want her.
Speaker 6 (40:47):
For this show. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
And that's again why it's like, look, you really can't
listen to anybody, because had I listened to all of
the people who were like.
Speaker 6 (40:56):
Don't do it, don't do that show, it's terrible for
your reputation.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Then Nancy, Jimmy's wife would not have seen me on
that very first episode where they run through my resume,
and she wouldn't have stopped everything she was doing, knowing
her husband had been selling the show for the last
two years. Cod and Find a co host met with
a dozen cmos, none of them worked out and been
like I think she's the one, and then him being like,
(41:20):
who the house wife?
Speaker 5 (41:22):
You know?
Speaker 1 (41:22):
And then doing his research and watching the season and
listening to my book and then calling me and being like, can.
Speaker 6 (41:32):
I talk to you about this because I really need
you do this and I think it's perfect.
Speaker 5 (41:37):
All right, We have so much more to get to,
but you will have to listen to part two of
this interview with Bozima because it's just too much for
one episode
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Too much goodness for one episode.
Scrubbing In with Becca Tilly and Tanya rad and iHeartRadio
and two time People's Choice Award winning podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hello everybody, we are scrubbing In. We have a very
exciting guest today. She really, I would say, is the
embodiment of what we strive for this podcust.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
To me, she is the embodiment of modern woman energy.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
She was a CMO at Netflix, CMO at Uber. I mean,
she has just done so many things. She's on the
Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, She's now on this new
show on Brand with Jimmy Fallon.
Speaker 5 (00:39):
She has a book, she has her own hair Caroline.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
Speaker 5 (00:43):
I don't really feel like I feel like we should
just get right into talking to her.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Yes, no, no, no stalling needed, No stalling needed.
Speaker 5 (00:51):
Everyone welcome, buzz and mus saying, John, we have been
so excited to have you on the podcast. You are
someone you know, Tanya's what your tagline? Your mission is
modern woman Yeah, energy, and I can't think of someone
who has who represents that more that we've had on
(01:12):
the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Thank you well, because I feel like, Okay, so you
have this new show, you have so much going on.
Speaker 6 (01:19):
I have so much going on, so I do want to.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Dive into because I also hate the question of like
how do you do it all? Because nobody asks a
man that. So it's like, I don't really like you're
doing it all. Yes, you're doing all these things. I'm
doing it, But I feel like, so for people that
may not watch The Real Housewives or may not know you,
you are such a powerhouse business woman, like you have
(01:41):
done so much and particularly in marketing. Yes, how did
you get your start in all of this?
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Ah, it's such a it's such a strange question to
me because it's like I don't know one marketer who's like, oh,
I went to school and studied marketing right right, anybody
who says that, you know, Like, you know, I was
in English and FM studies major with who was also
pre med.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
So I was going to med school and I took
the MCAT like I did. I was doing all the things,
and I decided to take a year between undergrad and
going to med school. And I was from College Springs, Colorado.
I went to school in Connecticut. I was like, Okay,
I'm going to go to New York City trying to
see what that's about. I knew one person there, like
(02:27):
one person, and she had graduated the year before me,
and she was at Columbia Film School getting her master's.
And so I struck up a deal because also my
parents were like, we are absolutely not funding them.
Speaker 6 (02:39):
I don't even know what you think you're doing.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
And I made a deal with her and her roommate
that if they let me sleep on the couch, I
would and if they bought the food, I would cook
and clean, okay, And so that was our agreement. And
I just founded the pavement and called the temp agencies
and did odd jobs, you know, hoping and praying that
I would just make enough money so that I went
(03:03):
starve and could make it through the year and sort
of just give myself some space where I went to
med school because I knew that once you get to
med school, that's twelve years, you know what I mean
of like life that you are studying and working and
not sleeping until you have your own like you know,
your career that you can not relax in, but you know,
(03:25):
you just have a little more normalcy. And I just
wasn't ready to do any of that. And so one day,
like the magic destiny moment happened, right, which I feel
like happens for all of us, just some of us
miss it. And I called the Temp agency and they
told me that Spike Lee had fired his assistant and
that he needed someone to come and answer the phones
(03:46):
at the reception for a few days. I said, great, fantastic,
And I go there and it's not his production company.
It's a new ad agency that he's opened in partnership
with DDB Worldwide. Ddb's the agency that Madmen was made on,
and so it's storied. I mean it's like on Madison Avenue.
It's between forty ninth and fiftieth. I mean it is
(04:06):
prime time, you know.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
And so I walk in there and it is just.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Like classic advertising space, like everybody's creative.
Speaker 6 (04:18):
Spike is smart and sharp, you know, he walks in
the door. You can feel the aura.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
And that day he walked in, he looked at me
and he was just like, God, damn it. They sent
us Miss America, you know, because I was sitting there
with like my hair like pulled back in the tight buns,
prying like the only suit I had, which happened to
be gray and polyester. And that is not a made
up story, okay, and my little pearls because I want
to be professional.
Speaker 6 (04:45):
And I looked at him kind of.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Like, you must not know who I am, first of all,
to be twenty two again, you know what I mean?
You know what I mean, because I literally just like
Miss America. I was like, I'm a triple major from Wesleyan.
I'm studying English and African American studies. I've read all
of the big authors everyone that you would know and
that you've read, I've written about them.
Speaker 6 (05:08):
And I'm also going to med school, so I don't
know who you're talking to you.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And he was carrying this, you know, stack of paper
under his arm, and I was like, and what is that, sir?
And he said it was his new script for Vamboozoo.
First of all, the fact that he was even answering
my questions is also, I think just a matter of
shock that he had because he was just like, hold on,
so she was Miss America and now she's got a
mouse on her and she's saying all kind of stuff.
Speaker 6 (05:35):
And I just asked him if I.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Could read it, and so he kind of like incredulously,
you know, threw it on the desk and I went home,
I took a red pen to it.
Speaker 6 (05:48):
I marked it up.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I gave him points on character development and grammar, SENTI structure.
Speaker 6 (05:59):
And I took him back to the office like a
couple of days later.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
It was supposed to be my last day, right answering
the phones, and he literally was like looked at me
like he was gonna strangle me.
Speaker 6 (06:09):
I mean, he was just like, you took a red
pen to my script, Like are you out of your mind?
And I was like, oh, I didn't know. That's not
what I was supposed to do.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
By the way, the office was like open floor plan type,
and so when I tell you that, everybody had held
their breath, you know.
Speaker 6 (06:23):
And that's when I knew I was in trouble because
I was like, oh, oh, was I not supposed to
do that?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
So he grabs a script, he stomps off into his office.
He had, like the one office that had a door,
slams it.
Speaker 6 (06:35):
I'm sitting there and I'm.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Thinking like, do I take my purse now and leave
or do I wait to be told to leave, you
know what I mean. So I was just kind of
sitting there tense waiting. It felt like I had waited
for like four hours, but I swear it was probably
thirty minutes. And he opens the door and he was like,
he made some good points. You should stick around.
Speaker 6 (06:53):
Wow, And that was it.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
The rest is history. Like twenty five years later, I'm
still in the business.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
So was your mentality like you do you not find
situations or people intimidating in the sense of feeling emboldened
to ask questions? Or did was that like youth and
just being I think.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
It's a combination of things. I think it's a combination
of like naivete and also nurture. Ye know, my parents
are very bold. My dad was a orphan by the
time he was fourteen, from a very small village in
the western part of Ghana. Like there is no percentage
(07:39):
for people like him who make it out of there.
It doesn't exist, you know. And very very long story short.
He has two PhDs, moves to the US, raised four daughters.
I mean, like it just boldness is part of the DNA,
you know, you have to have SMA audacity in order
to think that, like, oh, I'm from this place and
(08:00):
no one is gonna tell me that I can't make no. Yeah,
and my mother much the same. I mean, she's a
fashion designer by trade. She chose to be a homemaker
and she you know, it's like she never let me
sit in like any kind of wallow. Yeah, you know,
like when we moved to Caldo Springs, Colorado's I was
I was twelve, and we were coming straight from Ghana,
(08:25):
although we had lived in many places before that and
had a very strong self like sense of self, you know,
and I was very surprised by my classmates and by
the teachers or even my principal, who were.
Speaker 6 (08:39):
Just like they had this pity for me.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Oh you know, like it's poor thing she's come from Africa, right,
because what they saw right was like freaking nineteen eighty nine,
they had Sally's brothers on TV talking about these children
are worth once.
Speaker 6 (08:57):
In a day. By the way, the commercials still exists.
I hate those, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
And it's like, you know, you've got the distended bellies
and figs on eyes and it's like the mission trips
and let's go dig a Well, oh.
Speaker 6 (09:09):
My god, are you kidding me? Is that the only
thing that you know about Africa?
Speaker 5 (09:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Like you don't know that it like started civilization, that
the clothes you're wearing right now that the weaving method
came from Africa? Are you not aware of like music
and food and like fashion and sports? Like are you
not aware? And I knew that at twelve, Like I
looked at those people were just like, why.
Speaker 6 (09:32):
Are you feel sorry for me? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
You're like, oh, your English is so good. I'm like,
we speak five languages. I'm like, are you talking about
you know? And so I think a combination of yes,
nurture for sure, and then also the nature of who
my parents are in the DNA that I have have
made me very bold. But then on top of it,
(09:54):
like my like cause you can be given those things
and then not do anything right. Yeah, So I do
take some credit for who I am.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
Right, Like, you get the tools and how you use them, yeah, and.
Speaker 6 (10:05):
You cannot apply them right, you can decide not to
do anything with it.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
I think that fear also paralyzes, you know, the fear
of one thing. I feel like that my family is
something that I've seen and like just the trajectory of
my family is the fear of trying something and failing,
as opposed to thinking, just try it and if it happened, made.
Speaker 6 (10:25):
Real stick, you know.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
Yeah, But I do think it is interesting because our education,
our education system, that.
Speaker 6 (10:31):
Is what we saw absolutely. So people see, yeah, people
see which is today.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
But I tell people that, like, you know, I take
a bunch of friends with me to Ghana every year
every December. I mean when I say I'm taking friends,
I take one hundred and twenty five people. Wow, I mean,
and we are having a good time.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
And I cannot tell you.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Just yesterday I had this conversation, you know where somebody's
just like, ooh, so, you know, like, what's like am
I going to And I'm like, you backpacked through Europe
when you were freaking like nineteen Okay, you were staying
in hostels.
Speaker 6 (11:08):
I'm telling you that there's a five star hotel.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
You'll be driven around like we're gonna be part of
drinking bove.
Speaker 6 (11:14):
Okay, You're worried about Africa. Look you are you serious
right now?
Speaker 5 (11:19):
You know?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So it's just like it's still I feel like that
conversation has really not changed that much because you know, unfortunately,
Africa has been the victim of bad marketing for four
hundred plus years, and so I think that it would
change overnight. No, of course not, but I think it
requires people like me, people who have grown up on
(11:41):
the continent, people who are curious about the continent.
Speaker 6 (11:44):
To actually change any of that understanding and behavior. Well, yeah,
to educate yourself into like hell yeah, yeah, it's interesting
and go to the freaking Himalayas. Don't know anybody over there.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Why did you know that you could go to Egypt,
you know, or go to Tanzania, Like, I don't understand why.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
It's interesting though, that you said marketing marketing for Africa,
Like I because of like your position and kind of
like where you've been in your profession. Do you do
you kind of look at everything through a marketing everything everything.
Speaker 6 (12:16):
Because everything is It's so true, everything is.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Do you feel like marketing is is the the end
all be all for any business?
Speaker 6 (12:25):
Yeah, for sure, it's it's the it's the center. It's
like it's like it's like.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
It's like fail or not fail based on marketing.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Based on marketing. Absolutely, you can have and there are
so many examples. You can have the best products on
the planet. If it's marketing badly, you fail.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
Right, you know what I mean? Like there's rarely any
product that succeeds to any kind of like real level
with bad marketing with that without any good marketing.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Yeah, I wanted to tell people that are listening, and
I want to get it right in terms of like
your creds, but in terms of your CMO of huge
(13:17):
companies Netflix.
Speaker 6 (13:18):
Uber, More Music.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I mean, so these are all these are all.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Huge companies with lots of success. Yes, But are you
somebody that when you're kind of like, do you ever
scroll on social media and like see businesses, new businesses
and be like, oh, I want to like I wish
I could talk to them, right, I do.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
That all the time. Do you really my job at uber?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Oh you reach out to them?
Speaker 6 (13:40):
Yeah? Because I was like, first of.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
All, I'm a nerd of this, you know, like I
am the person who goes to the cocktail party and
only wants.
Speaker 6 (13:50):
To talk about business.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, I am that person. I love that, Like, don't
catch me in the corner. I will not ask you
about your kids, you know what I mean. I'm gonna
be like, so, yeah, that business, you know, and maybe
if you don't know what I'm talking about, then probably
gonna move on to somebody else.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
You know.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
But what did you reach out to Uber and say?
Speaker 6 (14:08):
Well?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Because I so at the time, I was head of
global marketing at Apple Music launched Apple Music. Then the
keynote like highly successful. Everything was going great. Tim Cook
does like one cover a year, and that year was
Fast Company. He was on the on the cover and
I was on the inside cover.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I mean like crazy were great.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
And I had one office in Cupertino and one in
La And I was sitting in the office in Cupertino.
Speaker 6 (14:33):
I remember it is like like it happened yesterday. I
was sitting in the office in Cupertino.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Uh, and I was scrolling like Facebook or something, and
I was seeing all the delete Uber craziness, you.
Speaker 6 (14:46):
Know, delayed Uber. You know, it's like get rid of them,
bring them down.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
And crazy enough, like maybe I don't even say two
weeks before that, I'd been in a meeting where we
were talking about the success of Uber and how amazing
of a company it was, because it was like this, like,
you know, just came from nowhere and you know, changed
the entire way that we operate anything. And again, at
the time, I was ahead of global marketing at Apple Music,
(15:12):
which was also disruptor because people had been buying songs
for nine nine cents per song on iTunes. iTunes was
the mass market leader. Ninety eight percent of the market
came through iTunes, and we were telling people, hey, pay
nine ninety nine and get like streaming of every song that's.
Speaker 6 (15:31):
Ever been recorded in the history of man.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
It was like people did not understand what we're talking about,
and we're trying to convince some of this.
Speaker 6 (15:37):
So I was over there looking at Uber, like, now,
how they do that, you know what I mean? How
they convince people to try something new?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Taxies have been around forever, but it's like, now I
gotta go on my phone and order the thing, and
then it's gonna come.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
To me, like how, you know. And I was sitting
there and I saw all of the like the leade
Uber stuff and it was falling fast. I mean it was.
It was pure destruction.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So I called Ariana Huffington, who happens to be a
friend and she also sat on the board of Uber,
and I was like, girl, oh my god, tell me
what's happening, you know, And she's like, oh, Darling, it's
a disaster.
Speaker 6 (16:11):
And I was like, get me Travis.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Kaldik, like I want to talk to him, you know,
and I want to know what's going on, like I
and maybe I could help, you know. I was like,
who is running marketing over there? You know, and she's like,
I'll get you a lunch. So actually we took lunch
here in La He flew down from San Francisco, and
it was supposed to be an hour lunch. It was
eight hours worth of like argument, I mean, like throw down,
(16:34):
like I'm my best, like you know, advice, I'm trying, and.
Speaker 6 (16:39):
I'm just like this grateful motherfuck you know, like who doesn't.
Speaker 5 (16:43):
Listen to me? You know?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
But he he had pushed back, and he did have
some good points about certain things, and so then I would,
you know, rejigger And then before he knew it, I
was I was here on a napkin writing things down
and drawing diagrams and all.
Speaker 6 (16:57):
Kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And at the end of eight hours, he was like,
come work for Uber and I was like, I don't know,
but something in me was like, yeah, that's where you're going.
Speaker 6 (17:08):
I was like, yes, I go home.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I'm like, but things are so good. Did you made
the switch? Because I could feel it in your gut,
in my gut, my.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Intuition told me, and everybody said don't go. Literally everyone
my own mother was like.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
Oh my God, my child, like she's ruining her life,
you know.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
And I was like, like, have this amazing thing going
and then you're going to delete?
Speaker 6 (17:35):
Or are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I was sitting at Apple. I was on the inside
cover of Fast Company with Tim talking about She's great.
I had been on the stage at the Worldwide Developers Conference.
Speaker 6 (17:46):
People knew who I was.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
I was making my mark, and yet your gut said go.
Speaker 6 (17:52):
I said go.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
And it was very, very scary to listen to my
gut because everyone, even Ariana.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
Was like.
Speaker 6 (18:02):
You might want to, you know, like, and I was like, God,
I think I'm going to resign.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
I did.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Can I ask what some of the points tour that
that you were like, I want to I want to
turn this around, like what were your ideas because if
I see some something or some brain getting canceled, especially
one of that size.
Speaker 6 (18:23):
Yeah, I'm like my I'm like you were.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Chaos.
Speaker 6 (18:30):
I'll tell you. There were a number of things.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So one, I mean, look, I and I don't, you know,
pretend to wear a cape rank like that. But I
am very intentional with where I am and what I'm doing,
you know. And I knew that as one of the
only senior black women in tech, like in any visible
position that wherever I went would get attention.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
M M.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
I also knew that at the time Uber, one of
the things that they were struggling with was diversity of
anybody of color and of women in their C suite.
When I got there, I was like, they were like
eight bros. You know what I'm saying, Yeah, like one woman.
And it was just like there were so many things
(19:18):
that were wrong with the company. And at the same time,
I was looking at corporate life and all of the
struggles that I'd had even at Apple.
Speaker 6 (19:26):
Let's not get it twisted that.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I was like, you know what, like y'all want to
point fingers at this company and say that it is
doing wrong. It doesn't represent women, it doesn't represent people
of color. They don't treat their drivers well, they're like,
you know, unethical, they have all these bad practices. I
want you to show me where Nirvana is. Like, please,
(19:51):
one company come and say, oh, we have it perfectly right.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
One company do that. And I was like, you know what,
if I can go to Uber and represent myself well
turn around.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
A business, then you can't tell me that not any
other company in these United States of America or globally
can do that, you must And so part of it
was like, you know the chip that I have on
my shoulder that I was like, yeah, I'm going like
you think you think I'm afraid of.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
It, Like it was like challenge, You're like yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
And then plus, like I said, I'm a nerd of
this industry and this business, and so seeing what I
was seeing, I was like, you know, the battle and
this was the argument that I had with Travis. I
was like, the battle that you're fighting isn't against Lyft
and whether or not their engineers are finding a faster
way to get cars to people, because at the time,
(20:44):
it was like you call the uber and it says
it's coming to get you in seven minutes, right, and
then Lyft was like six minutes, and you know what
I mean, Like, I was like, that's that's not the
challenge you have. That's where everybody's focused right now. People
don't trust you, they don't like you.
Speaker 6 (21:00):
And guess what we.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Forgive brands and companies that we like, We give them grace.
And so what he had to do at the time,
what the company had to do at the time was
rebuild trust. And that's not done through the algorithm, and
so that was the argument we're having. And so I
was like, shoot, look, what I'm gonna come do is
build trust, like have people trust the company. And then
(21:25):
I got there and two weeks later he was fired.
So it was it was boo, that was a hard
that was a hard time after he was gone.
Speaker 6 (21:34):
So what happened?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
This goes in my movie in my Bible, No kidding, No,
it was like I keep saying, it was like Lord
of the Flies, you know what that book where it's
like all the kids are like left.
Speaker 6 (21:50):
On an island and then they survive. Yeah, they answers
survive and like governing themselves.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
It was like that.
Speaker 6 (21:55):
Everybody was out for themselves.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, yeah, trying to do what they're doing. But I
still had my mission, you know. And also at the
time I knew that all the vitrol that was coming
for Uber, I was like, I knew that other companies
deserved it as well, it wasn't just Uber. And so
my press like mission and strategy became I'm gonna get
(22:23):
in front of every publication, every stage, every every possible
person who has a platform and tell them about what
we need to do to change these corporate environments to
people like me feel comfortable here and they can actually succeed.
And so that's what I did. And the crazy thing
is that people this is like kind of like a
(22:47):
weird The people couldn't attack me, you know what I mean.
I almost felt like I had teflon, because what are
you gonna say to me? Like if I if you're
interviewing me and You're like, why would you go to this?
Speaker 6 (23:00):
They're treating women badly and.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
People are cutting and I'm like, oh, yeah, but if
I'm there, yeah, how you're not there?
Speaker 5 (23:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:07):
And if you think they're treating me so badly, why
don't you come over here and help me? Very few
people were like, oh, yes, you know what, Yeah, I'm
gonna quit my job and come over there too. And
so so I was able to get the brand message
across the objective of what we're trying to do, any
policies that we're trying to change. Man, I was able
(23:28):
to skate and get all those messages across because nobody
was coming for me.
Speaker 6 (23:32):
They couldn't.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, And so it became the perfect opportunity for me
as a marketer to sharpen my skill, you know, in
terms of like, okay, does this theory work in terms
of like building trust and what are the ways in
which I'm going to do that over time and then
amplify me as an executive. My face was everywhere. No,
(23:55):
it was like I was on the cover of the
New York Times. It will this woman say?
Speaker 6 (24:00):
Were okay challenge? Yeah? Yeah, the Sunday Times. I'm like,
I guess I will. You know.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
But that's the point is that, Like so it was
it was a twofold benefit, you know, which is one
I could strapping my craft and two I.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
Could also become very well known for the job I
was doing. Okay, so you are.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Like you, you are an entity in and of itself,
like you yourself right, and you are a business woman,
You're respected, you have all this stuff. How did the
Real Housewives come into play? Because I feel like, as
a brand, it's not quite your brand.
Speaker 6 (25:01):
Let's put it this way. Which is that.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
And some of this is like in reverse, which is
that there really hasn't been any job I've taken where
people have cheered for me.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
I'm going there.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I just told you the story of Uber. But the
end of that year that I was at Uber, everybody
was like, oh my god, you could do it. Of course, yes,
the brand turn around fos, you know, like like there,
there hasn't been a job. Even when I left Pepsi
to go to Beats Music, which wasn't acquired by Apple
(25:35):
to become Apple Music, people didn't applaud because I was
also going through a really tough personal time.
Speaker 6 (25:42):
My husband had just died of cancer. I was in
deep grief.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
It was like three months after his death, and everybody
was like, you're you know, you need to sit down
and grieve and go to a cave and like find
yourself and then you can make major life decisions. And
I was like, nope, I'm taking my year old and
I'm out of here, you know. And to me, it's
like these moves that I've made have been pure instinct
(26:09):
and intuition.
Speaker 6 (26:12):
I don't ask people their opinion and what I should do.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
That's very interesting.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
I think a lot of people, myself included, always absolutely.
Speaker 6 (26:22):
And you shouldn't do that.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
How the hell would they know how to advise you.
They're only advising you based on their own perspective of
the fear that they have for you. I'm not even
say that these are haters who love you, who are like,
don't do that, Oh my god, like, oh no, wait,
wait for six months, make sure the market is more stable,
you don't get some more money and then you can
do the thing.
Speaker 6 (26:44):
Or you're starting to get popular over here, don't go
try that over that thing over there? What if it fails.
They're not telling you because they hate you they want
you to do badly. They're telling me because they love you.
They don't want you to fall down.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Yeah, And that's the point I've always felt like people
like some soon you ask people, they're projecting their fear
for you, yes, and do it. I don't know, but
I was gonna ask, how do you learn to taste
your Like how do you not get into the head
space of needing someone to tell.
Speaker 6 (27:13):
You what first? And this is like the hardest thing,
which is that you've got to actually not do that,
like just don't just don't ask me, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
I'm like, I'm not saying trust yourself first. I'm saying,
don't ask first. So it's like, you know you're gonna
take you know, you have an opportunity to take this
job or date this person or whatever, and you're gonna
go ask your friends, why are you doing that?
Speaker 6 (27:37):
Don't do that?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
You know, It's like part of it is the discipline
of like sitting with yourself and being like what do
I want?
Speaker 6 (27:44):
Mm hmm?
Speaker 1 (27:45):
You know it's like what do I want? I promise
you you have the answer already, I promise you. Like,
if nothing else, just look at my damn life.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
Man.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
You know, every decision that I've made has been because
I have trusted myself. You can ask my mom, you
can ask myself. So you can ask my sixteen best friends.
Speaker 6 (28:02):
They will tell you.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I don't ask them should I do this? Should I
quit this job? Should I wear this outfit? Should I
date this person? I don't ask if their opinion. Now,
when I'm in the job, I'll be like do I
look good?
Speaker 6 (28:16):
Yeah, that's fine, right, But it's I.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Don't ask, And my intuition has become so strong in that,
like I know immediately when like I meet a person,
or I walk into a room, or I'm being offered
a deal whether or not I should take it.
Speaker 6 (28:31):
I know it immediately.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Now sometimes I try to rationalize with myself, they're like, ooh, girl,
it's not a good idea because.
Speaker 6 (28:38):
X, Y and Z thing. But I always know.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I always know, and it is so hard because a
lot of times those are really good opportunities on paper,
you know, or like it looks like danger and you
shouldn't go over there. And so when I was done
with corporate life, I knew it. And when it was
time for me to leave Netflix, I knew it. Now
(29:02):
did I want to do it? No, because I'm a
single mom who takes care of her parents and has
a lot of responsibility, and it's not the type of
thing you just get up and walk away from when
your global chief marketing officer Netflix making a lot of
money and I've got lots of homes, and.
Speaker 6 (29:20):
So it wasn't natural for me to be like, you
know what, I'm going to leave this.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
But I knew I had to one because I wanted
to write my book and I wanted to write it
because I needed to get my memoir out. I needed
it out of my body, you know. And part of
that need was that people look at me or look
at my career and they're just like, oh, yes, well
you know, you climb the corporate ladder and you got this,
you got that, And I'm like, you don't know the
(29:46):
depths in which I've been, and that if I can
be in those depths and rise, so can you. Because
this isn't like how to get to the corner office
in heels book the boss check.
Speaker 6 (29:58):
This is not that book. This is the downtrodden book.
This is the book that tells me about grief, that
lets you see my pain. That's like, hey, look. And
then the next day I woke up and I did
That's that's that book.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
And so for me, I knew I couldn't do the
job I was doing in Netflix and also open myself
up to all of that the chasm of emotion that
I needed to tap into to write the book, because like,
how do you do that on the weekend and then
go back to the office on Monday.
Speaker 6 (30:27):
You can't do it?
Speaker 5 (30:28):
Well, I was gonna say, you're in these roles where
you're not, I would imagine, is a weakness in those
rules day to day, and then you're trying to open
up this deep part of your soul and life.
Speaker 6 (30:40):
No you can't do it, Yeah, you can't do it.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
And I think for me it's like even after the
book was published and I've promoted the hell out of
it and I was done and sitting in my house
and thinking should I go back? You know, and a
few people have been circling. So I was taking meetings.
The last one I took was in Paris. Really big
job and the last thing to do is to meet
(31:06):
the board. I was sitting in my hotel room. Board
meeting in two days, and I was like, I don't
want to. I was like, oh, but my brain was like, well,
go meet with the board, and then when to make
you the offer? Then you decline, you know what I mean.
Speaker 6 (31:21):
Please get the offer first. I was like, I don't
want this job.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Wasting my time and I'm wasting their time. I should
just tell them. I struggled back and forth all night.
Now that's the time when I could have called a
girlfriend and been like, girl, I'm thinking, like, what do
you think I should do?
Speaker 6 (31:36):
Should I go to the meeting? And then of course
my friends would have been like, go to the meeting,
you know, take the to the thing. But I knew
I I knew I didn't have it.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I didn't want it, and so I wrote the email
in the middle of the night, took the first flight
out in the morning, and went home.
Speaker 6 (31:51):
And then I got here and I was like Oh God,
what have I done?
Speaker 5 (31:55):
Yo?
Speaker 6 (31:55):
Yeah? And a few weeks later I get an email
from Bravo. Oh wow, and they're like, hey, we've been
trying to get you for a long time. No way, No,
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
They're like, but you haven't been available because the companies
you worked for, like, we try to get to you,
and you know, everybody blocks us.
Speaker 6 (32:16):
And I was like, oh, yeah, well I'm right here.
I'm not doing anything.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
And the meeting I had with them was one about
the question you asked, which is just like, you know,
your my reputation and like, is that the kind of like,
you know, person that I want to be perceived as.
And I think because of who I am and the
experiences I've had and not having the privilege of, you know,
(32:42):
being part of the majority, I've really been given everybody
the bird for a long time.
Speaker 6 (32:48):
Like I don't subscribe to anybody's box. It really don't.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
I've never fit in the box. Do you know how
many times I've been in like meetings or a review
where somebody's like, oh, you know, if you were just
a little more demure, if you were just a little nicer,
if your voice didn't you know, rise every time you
were passionate, you didn't use your hands so much, if
you would wear less loud colors, you wouldn't wear that leather,
(33:15):
if you would only pull your hair back, if you
could only make it straight, Godly, I'm telling you.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
So it's like all of that. Yes, I could have
taken that on, and many people do. I don't even
blame them for doing it.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Many people conform because it's so much scarier to not
conform and to be out here and shunned. But it
has become my superpower. And so in that meeting with them,
I didn't look at the housewives and say, oh, how
am I going to fit into this group? I said, oh, okay,
I guess my job is to come change it. Yeah,
my job is to come and show a different type.
Speaker 6 (33:49):
Of woman, because yeah, why do I need to be
like them? Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
It's like I'm great, Like I belong in spaces because
I'm amazing and because.
Speaker 6 (33:59):
I I add to situations. And so have there been
housewives who've been business people? Sure?
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Do any of them have twenty five years of marketing
success and in the Hall of Fame, No, not a
single one. Do any of them talk vulnerably about certain
parts of their lives that you know, maybe are not
so great to talk about, like fertility and fibroids and
being a widow.
Speaker 6 (34:26):
No, so I'm going to do it.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
And I do think there's something very special about the
relationship of women at this particular age in their late thirties, forties, fifties.
It's a very special time.
Speaker 5 (34:42):
You know.
Speaker 6 (34:42):
It's like you're in this weird.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Crux where it's like you're taking care of children maybe
or your children are transitioning to other more responsible times
in life. You're dealing with aging parents. Maybe you've had
a marriage, maybe it's going south. Maybe it's ten years
(35:06):
in and you're trying to figure out the spark again.
Maybe you don't have a husband and you're trying to
this dating life but you're old. Yeah, I was like,
And then you've got your friends and.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
They're all going through this hormonal boat.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
And dealing with all these things. So it's not even
so much that I don't appreciate conflict. I think conflict
is necessary, Like that's what we are as human beings.
Conflict comes with the thing. But do we have to
have conflict over petty things? Right?
Speaker 5 (35:32):
No?
Speaker 6 (35:32):
We don't.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
And so my feeling wasn't that like, Oh, I'm gonna
come into Housewives and it's going to ruin my reputation
because I'm now going to be out here like having
these petty ass conversations like I'm not doing that, yep.
Speaker 6 (35:44):
And it's like, honestly, like even the first few.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Shoots that we had, I got feedback, you know from
one of the producers like, Hey, you know, you're gonna
have to really.
Speaker 6 (35:54):
Get in there, and I was just like, no, I
don't think so.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
I think if you want me in there, then they
got to rise to my level, like or We're gonna
have to have conversations that are a little smarter because
I'm not going here and I'm not explaining myself, you know, right,
And that for me is the way that I've always
conducted myself. And so my friends who see me on
the show, or anybody who's ever worked with me, they'll
point and be like, oh, that's boths.
Speaker 6 (36:17):
We know her, We've seen that girl before, you know,
that's nothing new to them.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
And so when people are in the you know, in
the Housewives like sort of world, are like, oh my gosh,
how did you why are you coming in you did
this and you said that they was just like mm hmm, yep.
If you've known me the last like thirty years, you
know too.
Speaker 5 (36:36):
But here I am when they reach out to you
did your marketing cause you were saying you see everything
to the marketing lens. Yeah, because house Lives has been
a brand for so long, and yeah, it's been very
much the same. I would say, like from the beginning,
there hasn't been much shift. Did your brain go like,
did you start is there ideas when you think about
(36:57):
the housewives brains of all I want to change this not.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Necessary about the brand, but well because the people are
the brand. And so my thought was like, yes, starting
with representation of me, like you know, where are the
corporate baddies at the one who like their boobs and
also have like a good resume And I didn't see that,
(37:20):
And so my thought was like, yeah, in order to
continue to evolve not only the brand of Housewives, but
at the end of the day, marketing is storytelling. So
in order to evolve the story of women of this
particular age and taking them out of this really destructive
(37:43):
concept that they can't have reasonable conflict and that they
don't know how to manage their emotions and be true
friends to each other.
Speaker 6 (37:54):
Or mortal enemies and do it with some gusto.
Speaker 5 (37:58):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
It's like we have to change that story. Like, like
I told you, I have sixteen best friends. They're all
about my same age, and we're dynamic.
Speaker 5 (38:09):
You know.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
It's like all of us are going through like all
of these various challenges in life, and we don't all
get along all of the time. But there is grace,
you know for those hard moments. There are the you
know sleepovers where it's like, look, I'm gonna help my
girl out.
Speaker 5 (38:30):
You know.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
It was my best friends who showed up at my
house the day my husband died. They slept in the
front of my bed. They're the ones who washed my kid.
They're the ones who did the dishes and cooked the
food that I.
Speaker 6 (38:41):
Would not eat.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
No, like, we have enough drama in our lives that
we can still showcase that without worrying about when somebody's
late to dinner and fight about that.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
Yeah, it does have to be so fabricated because there's
enough going on in life such real.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
And that's the thing that really support Actually when I
joined was that I think, like everybody else. My assumption
was that there must be like producer led stories, you
know what I mean, or like they must like you know,
go and go, you in the back and like, oh,
you know what she said.
Speaker 6 (39:15):
But the thing is that.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Now I understand why people fall in love on like
love is blind and all these other things where you're
just like how could you you know, because you're it's
such an intense amount of time. You know, we filmed
for like three months, three and a half months, and.
Speaker 6 (39:34):
Six days a week.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
You are spending eight hours probably with these women, you know,
in either as a group or in various conversations. And
I don't come over to your house and we're like, oh,
so tell me about that banana bread you were baking.
Speaker 6 (39:47):
It's like why is your husband such a dog? What's
wrong with your kids?
Speaker 5 (39:52):
You know?
Speaker 1 (39:53):
And so you're you're jumping into really deep, deep conversation
right away all of the time. Like by the time
I was done with the first season, I had talked
to those women more than I talked to my sisters.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Yeah you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Yeah, And I knew more about what was going on
in their lives for that moment of time than I
did any of my friends, and so when people have
conflict with each other, it makes sense to me because
the emotions are running deep. We're talking about very vulnerable things,
and that's what I'm saying, like, I just want us
to continue to elevate that conversation so we can get
(40:29):
to like some real meat of what all of us.
Speaker 6 (40:31):
Deal with it.
Speaker 4 (40:33):
So when you were on So, was it that role
or that like job, I call it a job even
though yeah, I mean it is that got you the
job for on Brama Jimmy Fallon.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
So they saw you on Housewives and like we want her.
Speaker 6 (40:47):
For this show. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
And that's again why it's like, look, you really can't
listen to anybody, because had I listened to all of
the people who were like.
Speaker 6 (40:56):
Don't do it, don't do that show, it's terrible for
your reputation.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Then Nancy, Jimmy's wife would not have seen me on
that very first episode where they run through my resume,
and she wouldn't have stopped everything she was doing, knowing
her husband had been selling the show for the last
two years. Cod and Find a co host met with
a dozen cmos, none of them worked out and been
like I think she's the one, and then him being like,
(41:20):
who the house wife?
Speaker 5 (41:22):
You know?
Speaker 1 (41:22):
And then doing his research and watching the season and
listening to my book and then calling me and being like, can.
Speaker 6 (41:32):
I talk to you about this because I really need
you do this and I think it's perfect.
Speaker 5 (41:37):
All right, We have so much more to get to,
but you will have to listen to part two of
this interview with Bozima because it's just too much for
one episode
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Too much goodness for one episode.
Hosts And Creators
Tanya Rad
Rebecca Tilley
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