November 19, 2025 • 42 mins
We all watch The Bachelor as if it were a professional sport, but Chad Kultgen and Lizzy Pace from the Game of Roses podcast and authors of "How To Win The Bachelor" take it to an entirely different level. They’re hanging out with Ben and Ashley and sharing their expert opinion on who “played” the game of The Bachelor the best.
They share their thoughts on how much impact producers should have on the decisions of the cast, and how much true “manipulation” can steer someone’s journey of love.
Plus, Chad reveals his personal connection to some people from Bachelor Nation!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is the Ben and Ashley I almost famous podcast
with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
It's almost famous podcast, and well today.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
I'm here with one of my favorite people in the world, Ashley. Hello, Hi, Ben.
Speaker 4 (00:14):
So happy to have us back together.
Speaker 5 (00:16):
It's nice weeks of us not too long together, it's
too long.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
We have a really special episode today, Ashley, you want
to tell everybody who we have on and why. Maybe
I think a little background to why they're here, like
where why this is now could be interesting.
Speaker 5 (00:32):
Oh, I'm so excited to have our guests on today.
It is Chad Culchin and Lizzie Pace from the Game
of Roses podcast and they're the authors of How to
Win the Bachelor, which is something that Teresa you said
kind of the Golden Bachelor to possibly win the game
because your whole thing, guys, is that you think that
(00:55):
the Bachelor is not fundamentally about love.
Speaker 6 (00:56):
It is a sport, That's correct.
Speaker 7 (01:00):
Are you saying that you don't?
Speaker 6 (01:02):
Yeah, listen. Also, just off the top, I want to
say this is an honor for us because both of
you are two of the greatest players who've ever lived. Acually, obviously,
you have revolutionized the tier play game that two on
one date that you had in the bad Lands against
Kelsey Poe, maybe one of the most dangerous villains we've
ever seen in our beloved game of all time.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I think you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 6 (01:25):
Don't get me started.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
He even sounds like yourn ESPN commentary right now.
Speaker 6 (01:31):
I mean, look to us, it is a sport, and
we wrote this book called How to Win the Bachelor.
It's kind of like the money Ball of Bachelor. It's
really based on mathematical metrics of what a player can
do in any given situation. And we're not saying that
love isn't involved. We're saying it very much is so too.
Is a very rote format created by producers that you
(01:52):
have to navigate to make it to the end of
that game, especially if you want to win the ring,
especially if you want to find love. But uh yeah,
Gary accused Teresa of reading our book or being found
out reading our book while she was in the mansion.
But I don't know how true that is. She claims
that wasn't true.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, I was gonna say, has that been confirmed before
we like nail it down and say it happened.
Speaker 6 (02:14):
She went on Dear Shandy and said that she had
like a trial on Audible and listened to the first chapter.
That's all she would come clean about.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Do we have to make this like a wrong reasons thing?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Like if you've read exact you can't be there.
Speaker 7 (02:31):
I would say it makes sense to go read a
book called how to Win a Bachelor when you're going
on the Bachelor. Why does it have to be for
the wrong reasons?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I really one.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I think we're going to dive in and have a
really fun conversation today because there's a lot of questions.
I want to ask you that you probably have studied
better than Ashley and I. But I read Sean Lowe's
book before, like on the plane to be the Bachelor see.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
And I read Courny R.
Speaker 7 (03:00):
Robertson's big reveal how dare you study?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah? How dare you get prepared?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
No?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
And I remember my reasoning obviously, I wanted to do
well at this thing. I guess I.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Don't remember if it was before as the Bachelor. On
The Bachelor it was one of the two. But this
was such a mystery world at the time that you
get signed up for this thing and you're flying to
LA to maybe be a part of it. For almost
three months, you have no clue what you're walking into,
and for me it was this. I have a lot
of questions. Does anybody have any answers? Yeah, and looking
(03:35):
for any answers possible. I have no problem with people
preparing for the show. I do think though the motivation
behind preparing could become the issue.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
But that motivation. At this point in reality TV media
TV production, no one is going on any reality show
without the primary motivation being fame or at least being
an equal motivation to finding love, especially in all these
dating formats, because you see what can happen, especially now
in Love Island USA. You can walk out of a
good season's performance with five six million followers on whatever platform,
(04:08):
and you're making tons of money. That's the primary motivation.
And if you find somebody to date for six months
or maybe even mary, great, that's a great, like kind
of added bonus.
Speaker 7 (04:20):
At least at this point, I feel like Ashley was
actually one of the first Bachelor influencers ever.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Arguably, let's blame this trend on Ashley. I really want
to blame it on a.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Very lucky.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
We were cast the perfect time, Very Lucky.
Speaker 6 (04:40):
Come on, you're one of the greatest players who's ever
played this game, hands down to it you have a ninth.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Ok, all right, I will admit like there is there
is some strategy to my game afterward, but in the moment,
I don't know if there ever was.
Speaker 6 (04:53):
Your audition tape was work.
Speaker 7 (04:56):
I was strategic the entire time.
Speaker 6 (04:57):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You knew the game intrinsically,
you had watched every season.
Speaker 7 (05:01):
That's communication helps.
Speaker 6 (05:03):
You understand the format of it. You know what I
mean now, kind of to what you were talking about, Ben,
I've been using our book and kind of like Taylor,
making strategies for players and secretly training people to infiltrate
that game for the past four years and have had
very high levels of success kind of playing the Bachelor
from outside of it. So you know, I know that
(05:24):
there's kind of always this argument of like is it
for the wrong reasons? Is it for the right reasons?
Are they really there for love? And it's like some
of those players I'm training, are there Their primary reason
at least that they tell me that they want to
go in is like I do want to get married
and have kids. So I try to help them get
that objective by navigating like you're saying, Ben, this weird,
esoteric game that producers purposely keep obfuscated from people so
(05:49):
that you don't know what they're going to do. You
don't know what kind of manipulations they're going to pull
on you. But if you know what's likely going into
that situation, you have a much better chance of making
it through to the end.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Ashley, I'm going to let you run with this for
a bit, and I'm going to write down some questions
that come up along the way, because I feel like
we do have a lot to talk to both Chad
and Lizzie about. But I really I don't know if
we can do it together because I do think we're
going to be jumping on top of each other whole time.
So you take it away for a bit and then
I'll come in and be like, Hey, give me my space.
Speaker 6 (06:21):
Guys. You one question, Ben, before we get into the
duly questions.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
You can ask me anything.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
What was it like to play against in season eleven
a bachelorette to play against the greatest player of all time?
Nick Vail?
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Oh my, wow?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
The greatest player of all time?
Speaker 5 (06:35):
He is the great way we disagree if you want
his post show he is he gone four shows. In
his fourth show, he became the Bachelor. That is the
greatest player?
Speaker 7 (06:46):
Or do you only need one season, Caitlin Bristow.
Speaker 6 (06:49):
But he has more screen time than anybody in the
history of the game, more total roses, total kisses, total dates,
two back to back end runs in season ten and eleven,
crash the season second before Fantasy Suites, and run on
Bachelor Paradise season three. No engagement, but he did select
the jewel and then he was the Bachelor. No one
has ever done that. No one's coming close.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, let's sit in this first second before I hand
this off to Ashley.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Okay, would you actually.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Claim, though, that that would make him a good player,
because I feel like he went against everything you would
have said to do to get to the end by
what you just mentioned.
Speaker 7 (07:23):
Yeah, it's different metrics. Caitlin Brestow only needed one season
of Bachelor to become the Bachelorette. In my mind, Nick
had to keep auditioning again and again because.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
He was a villain.
Speaker 6 (07:35):
I think to go from villain to Bachelor is one
of the most difficult things you can possibly do in
reality television of any genre, any show, and he did
it successfully. Yes, he had to have the Redemption Tour
in season three of Paradise, but he played that perfectly
as well. And obviously it's kind of hard to argue
with his success after the show, but I think in
Game he just did more to revolution. He was the
(07:57):
sport than anybody else has that crashing Kaitlyn Bristo's seas
in an episode four, having sex with her before the
Fantasy Suites, making it all the way to the end,
getting Sean Booth dude not even be able to say
his name, to call him the other guy. We've just
never seen a psychological manipulation that strong. I don't think
from me, guys.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
And I also think we have to know one of
the most iconic moments, and I do you know, Nick
is a friend, but I do think this is a
moment he probably looks back on goes eh that maybe
it was a little too much. Was the call out
of Andy Dorfman on the live show where she was
not prepared to have to respond to the claims and
the things that he said.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Yeah, it should have.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Put him in like, should have pushed him out of
the franchise, but it made him this kind of iconic figure.
To where Caitlin brought him back on. Okay, So to
answer your question, I would say this, I was such
in a different place during that season, meaning Kitlyn and
I had such a strong friendship and such a strong
(08:58):
comfort with each other. I really didn't doubt that she
would keep me around a long time simply based on
the idea that she had. It kind of was everything
fell into place for me. You had two people fighting
with each other, hating each other, couldn't speak to each other,
and you had me in the middle being like, here's
the thing. I'm not gonna make life hard for anybody here.
(09:22):
I'm just gonna stay along for as long as you
need because Caitlyn, you and I both know we're not
getting to get out at.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
The end of this. But I'm down to hang.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
And she kept me around. So I never really said
that to her, No, not really in those words.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
It was unspoken.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeahs, I think Caitlyn would be Caitlyn would be fine
with me telling her telling this. We we literally had
our one on one like fantasy suite date, and one
of the first things she asked me, She'll be so
embarrassed I said this, But one of the first things
she asked me, was, uh, what do you think of
Nick and Sean? And I was like, Caitlyn, you're gonna
(09:59):
ask me about the two other guys while we're in
the fantasy suite and she said, I know. And I
was like, we both know. Like there's we've known this
the whole time. I'm not getting married at then of.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
This to you.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
But you still had fun in the fantasy suite, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
We had a great time. We danced a lot. But
she's great.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I love Kaitlin, but I didn't really involve myself in
that whole thing. I mean I was really removed from it, honestly.
Speaker 7 (10:24):
Yeah, you said, team Sean is what I'm gathering.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I love Sean, I love Nick.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
At the time, I really just had no doubt she
was getting end up with Sean, Like there was really
no question in my mind.
Speaker 5 (10:37):
Yeah, Okay, Now I have to talk about one Chad.
You mentioned that you're training men. Have you trained anyone
who's gotten on the show?
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (10:48):
Yeah, almost every season for the past four years, name drop.
Speaker 5 (10:54):
Is there a contract?
Speaker 6 (10:56):
Uh, there's no contract. But basically what I guess, like
Lizzie and I's backstory is that we're TV comedy writers.
That's where we met on a show ten years ago
that was on NBC called Bad Judge. And so my
kind of goal with training people has always been to
just collect a lot of interviews and stuff and training
sessions that we've had, record the zooms, record them in
(11:17):
person if they can be recorded in person, to maybe
sell it as like a reality show later of like
gaming the Bachelor basically. But I always make the deal
with all my players you can participate in that if
you want to. I will never out whoever I'm training,
because I know some of them are still in the system,
you know, maybe going to wind up on a paradise
or maybe going to be a bachelorette, you know that
(11:38):
kind of thing. So I don't want to like foul
that for them. But the two players that have come
out publicly that I have trained or Cassidy tim Brooks,
who was on Clayton Eckert season, we did an episode
of our show interviewing her about that and kind of
talking about like did the training help, did it hinder you?
Was it like just jumbling your head blah blah blah.
And then I also trained Taylor Hale, who went on
(12:00):
to never be on the bachelor, but one Big Brother
three or four years ago.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Oh, interesting, do the same rules apply?
Speaker 6 (12:08):
Many of the same rules. Yeah. Like a PTC, for example,
is a personal tragedy card. That's when you have to
air your kind of most intimate secret about some horrible
trauma that has happened to you in your life. That
applies to all reality games. T your play replies to
all applies to all reality games, even for the right reasons,
although it's not as prominent in like game games like Survivor,
(12:29):
Big Brother, Traders, whatever, where you actually get kind of
rewarded for lying to people, but still the idea of
are you there for the right reasons versus the wrong reasons?
And in this kind of modern world, the wrong reasons
is always influencing. Basically, if you even say the word Instagram,
you know you get thrown under the bus, which is
(12:49):
interesting because our next bachelorette is literally an influencer.
Speaker 7 (12:54):
There's also we say that you're playing to four audiences.
This is a big part of our of core ethos.
Is the first audience is the bachelor bachelorette who you're dating.
Second audience is the rest of the players, third is
the producer's Fourth is like bachel Nation or Big Brother Nation,
(13:14):
and you're kind of having to juggle all of those
at once. And I would say that that really applies
in Big Brother. You don't so much have the first audience.
You're not trying to romantically get with someone, or maybe
you are, I would say you should, But the rest
of them apply.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
There are a couple of different ways of winning.
Speaker 5 (13:43):
I think in your guys's definition, you could be like me,
where I like literally never really want anything.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
I mean, I guess I technically won Bachelor Winter Games,
which is it was.
Speaker 5 (13:53):
Silly, but I understood the trajectory in which they were
going with me.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Do you still view it as winning Bachelor?
Speaker 4 (13:59):
I never I know that it's it was.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
It was sweet because it was the producer's way of
being Like Ashley was never the Bachelorette. She would have
been a very polarizing bachelorette. Let's give her this little
you know, two weeks spin off the thing, and then
there's winning in the in the way that Nick wins.
Speaker 7 (14:20):
I would say, you won, you won Bachelor Paradise. You won.
You're now the first person to ever be a housewife
from Bachelor, which is like, in my mind, I'm obsessed
with the housewife, So congratulations.
Speaker 6 (14:33):
Yeah, that is I mean I would say this in
reference to like your time in game.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
I think you were It's different from Ben's.
Speaker 5 (14:42):
I wanted to bring this up because like there's Nick,
there's Ben, there's like Hannah Brown, there's Caitlin, and like
I'm just thinking about all these different ways of winning.
Speaker 6 (14:50):
Absolutely, I think you were like one of the first
players really like ahead of your time, playing a modern,
modern game back when it was kind of in its
golden era, still in at like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen era.
What your focus seemed to be or maybe this is
just how it played out, was being like one of
the players that really popped out of the show. So
you finished in ninth place, but that doesn't matter. You've
(15:13):
got a giant, successful podcast, millions of followers, you're an influencer,
you come back into the group dating format, you're kind
of ever present in the culture of the show, even
though you never want a ring or a crown, And
that really is like where modern reality play is at.
It's like Carolyn Weiger on last season of Traders, she
didn't come close to winning that game, but she was
(15:35):
probably the most memorable player and as a result, tons
of Instagram followers, tons of TikTok followers. She's in all
these other reality shows now, and so it's in the
modern reality game where we have what we call third
wave reality TV, which is like a Trader's where they
take people from different reality disciplines to go head to head.
Will a housewife beat a Big Brother player? Will bachelor
(15:57):
overcome survivor? You know? Those shows are where you're trying
to get to so that you can exist in that
ecosphere for like a decade probably I think into the
near future. And that doesn't really mean that you need
to win any of your rookie shows. It just means
you need to be entertaining.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
I let me jump in here for a second.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Ashley, Yeah, I'm so entertained.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
Rookie shows.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
No, let me jump in here for a second. Because
Chad and Lizzy, I do think they're I need a
clear definition from the two of you, because I agree
with you and everything you're saying, But I do think
the gameplay of it is interesting when you bring up
an Ashley, because what I love about Ashley, what I
(16:45):
like respect about her. Why we've done this show for
ten years together and it has been a success. I
have only viewed Ashley as the most authentic player to
ever play. I don't think she was ever were for me.
There were moments where I was like, what is the
right or wrong decision here? How is this gonna?
Speaker 5 (17:06):
Like?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
How do I navigate the moment I'm in? Especially as
the Bachelor, It's all you do is navigating moments right
or wrong. For me, I've always seen Ashley in my
real life when cameras aren't going or when she's on
television as authentically herself, which in my opinion, means she
(17:28):
would be dominant in any game she plays because she's
polarizing and she jumps off the camera at you. But
to call her a player assumes I think that there
is some type of strategy, and Ashley could tell me
if I'm wrong. I don't think she's ever had a
strategy when she goes on a show in her life
other than maybe one that she was uncomfortable going on.
(17:50):
But Bachelor is like I'm diving in and being myself
from the moment I get there.
Speaker 6 (17:55):
I mean, I think, whether you have a strategy or not,
if you step on the baseball field and they put
a in your hand. You got to swing it, you know.
And that's what Bachelor is. It's like when you step
out of that limit, or really a game starts when
you start applying or get nominated, because the producers are
building an archetypal kind of image of who they want
you to be in the show. The good girl in
your case, the virgin Ashlely, the nice guy next door
(18:18):
maybe for you, Ben or unlovable kind of became your
you know, your Moniker. But there are plenty of players
Taylor Frankie Paul is one of them, I think, who
are not overtly strategizing. They're not intellectualizing it. They are
just natural, raw, kind of forces of nature. I think
you were that as well, Ashley, just like Ben was saying.
But it doesn't matter like what your personal play style is.
(18:39):
There are some very cerebral players. There are some who
are just flying by the seat of their pants. Still though,
all of those different play styles are playing in the
same game, both against and with each other, at least
in Bachelor, and you have to navigate it. You have to,
Like you knew what a two on one was before
you went on that one with Kelsey Poe, right, you
knew what like a group date is or a one
on one date is. These things are not normal in
(19:02):
everyday human life. These are structures that the game has made.
And if you walk into the game knowing a little
bit about like the order of how they'll happen, what
is the kind of structure of a season? When do
I get to hometowns? Even that is preparing for something
that is a manufactured game.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
That's fair, That's good. Okay.
Speaker 7 (19:20):
I'll never forget when I actually put on the princess
dress when another player was going on the pretty woman date.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Like I will say that was very thought through. I
thought that was hilarious. I was like, let's see here
and let's.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
Be very tug and cheek and yeah, the other girls
did not recognize that, which was hilarious.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
I mean that's part of like what at least I
try to train all my players, is like, if there's
a camera on, you do something, and I think like
that that moment we call that mansion free play antics
when they're off on a data a one on one. Yeah,
if there's a camera in the mansion or wherever they
have you, you know, in a hotel, if you're international
or whatever, do something, do a song, do a dance,
(20:07):
make something up, get into a weird conversation about UFOs, whatever,
just so that they have that footage because they're always
going to cut back to the house. They do that
in every date to see, like what are the other
players doing? Be the at least the star of that
little show, that little scene.
Speaker 7 (20:21):
You know, if you're crying eating a corn on the
cob in the princess dress, they're not going to use that.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
I thought it was I had, you know, I had
different relationships with the producers, and I had one producer
that I knew that I would go to for like
playing like dress.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Up moments, and we had the best time.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
Like we were literally just gonna sit at home and
like sit around the campfire for like the zillion times.
I was like, let's just like do a little skit anyway.
I want to know who you guys think is the
best lead ever. Because we're sitting next to Ben Higgins
and now I'll hand it over to Bed before we
get into it or rundown questions he can ask all
(21:03):
his personals because you know, you guys fed my ego
a little bit.
Speaker 6 (21:06):
Yeah, you're feeding ours just by talking to us honestly,
I mean, I don't know I or sorry, we do
you want us to answer who we think the best
leads are.
Speaker 5 (21:14):
Yeah, and it's okay, you don't have to include Ben
in there, but like I think that when you think
about historically that he's definitely like probably the Prince Charming Bachelor.
Speaker 6 (21:24):
Well, the bigger thing that you did, Ben was was
do what we call love level four, which is an
I love you or I'm in love with you to
your two finalists before the final rows ceremony, which had
never happened. That I think, for better or worse, and
everybody can have their own opinion on this, kicked the
game into a direction that we're we're there now where
now almost every season you're seeing multiple love level fours
(21:47):
coming from the lead to multiple players, and that idea
of like a lead cannot tell anybody that they are
at love level four and tell the very final moment
at the altar. Basically that has been shattered in Season
twenty Bachelor, then season and.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Except for mel who had love for no one.
Speaker 6 (22:07):
How dare you?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
How dare you for his shoes?
Speaker 6 (22:11):
Man? That was a rough season. That was a rough season,
ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 7 (22:14):
Yeah, I would say Ben is definitely up there. I
feel like you're kind of one of the golden children
who keeps getting asked back over and over again, whether
you seem happy to be there or not. Like in
Winter Games, I think you came off as, like we
discussed for tr R for the Right Reasons as the
(22:36):
primary like thing you have to convey in the game,
and I think you come off as one of the
most for the Right Reasons leads of all time. I
have a soft spot for Charlie O'Connell Bachelor season seven,
who made the show his own, made them move to
New York, picked up Chris Harrison, did all sorts of
(22:59):
like really extravagant plays that we had not seen before.
It had been mostly you know, very by the book
up until that point.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Yeah, I've ever seen that, so I'll have to watch that.
Speaker 7 (23:13):
But Caitlin Bristow for me, is the best player of
all time. I think that she just was such a
star in a season of stars mind you on Prince
Farmington Crystal season. I think that she's you know, she's
gone on to have a very successful post game career
(23:35):
without getting you know, the villain edit that maybe the
person Chad's about to say did get.
Speaker 6 (23:42):
I don't think Vile is the best lead. I think
he was the best player. I think the best lead
of all time. I have kind of two One is
based on the season that was turned in that I
think in a lot of cases, seasons are defined by
their players, but sometimes the lead can really be like
the most important player in a season, and I think
Hannah Brown was that in Bachelorett fifteen. So many iconic
(24:03):
moments she I think raised the level of play of
the players on her season, kind of like Michael Jordan
did with the Bulls when he was you know, back
in the day. I think you got performances out of Tyler, Cameron, Pilot,
p jed Wyatt, even Luke Parker that you don't get
if she's not the Bachelorette. And then I would say,
in terms of sacrifice to the game, like how much
(24:23):
have you left on the field and given to this thing?
I think Rachel Lindsay is far and away at the
top of that list. I think what she was asked
to do and repeatedly asked to do even after her
season as a lead, was insane, and she just kept
doing it and you know, even to the end when
she did that extra interview with Chris Harrison that changed
(24:46):
the franchise forever. You know, she is like, I think,
in the top three or five most important people who
has ever come through this franchise. And I think her season,
if you go back and rewatch it, there were just
so many insane things they did to her, like putting
Lee Garrett on that season and then having him and
Kenny King kind of go head to head in like
(25:06):
a racism argument that they had to solve that the
men tell all, it was just wild that season. So
those are my two answers.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I think that though, was also a turning point for
the franchise where they asked they they were being asked
from the public to broach and approach the issue and
make the show more diverse, and so the show said, okay,
let's do that. And then they, in my opinion, went
way too far too quickly, like instead of making it
(25:37):
a really beautiful story and something that hey, we've heard
from you, they did they asked Rachel to carry the
weight of these conversations in the midst of a season,
and it felt it felt ugly, honestly it just felt
disgusting at times, and I think they never full They've
never really adapted to a healthy place of where people
(26:02):
can have conversations and understand and grow and be exposed to.
They just kind of like forced it down everybody's throats
in a way that made Rachel be the spokesperson and
that felt weird.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
It felt very odd. Yeah, and I think we grapped
onto that.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I do think though a lot of the names you mentioned,
and I think it's where the show and I want
to hear your opinion of this now. I think it's
where the show has fallen flat is. Back in the
day they had contestants, like in Ashley, they had leads,
and I would if I was a lead today. I
don't think maybe I'm as popular as I was when
(26:38):
I came on, because every season that was something uniquely different.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
You go from Caitlin Bristow, the one sneaking out of
her hotel room and you know, getting people to fight
over her, and you know all the like funny comments
that were made from Caitlyn to me, you know, you're
more like, hey, that's just the guy that I would
in my neighborhood. To the Nick Files, who like, yes,
(27:04):
had the villain edits and was a villain for years
and people were intrigued by what is he going to
do and how messys is gonna get. They mixed it
up a lot back then, and now it feels like
we've gone in this kind of like rhythmatic. Every season
kind of has the same thing. The leads really can't
even talk to the contestants. They're not really good at it.
(27:26):
They don't ask any questions leading up to a mel
who probably will be the tipping point, the turning point
hopefully for us to say, let's get back to something
maybe a little messier and more interesting, because we've gone
in this like very boring status quo for so long.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
Let's just throw in that Joey was a great peak
in the middle of some valley.
Speaker 6 (27:51):
Yeah, I think, I mean for my money, and I
could give a two hour long college dissertation on this.
But it started in Bachelor season eighteen, which I believe
was twenty fourteen one, Pablo Galavus, the first real true
villain Bachelor. I think the producer tier got kind of
a taste of blood in their mouth with that season,
and they were like, every lead, we're gonna shot on them.
(28:13):
We're gonna make them stupid or ridiculous fools or just
like straight villains. And after all Gale left, he knew
how to kind of ride that line. When he left
after Colt Underwood season, there was like this power vacuum
and you can kind of see it in Pilot Pete
season where they're really turning those players against each other.
They bring Chase Rice in on Victoria Fuller's one on
(28:35):
one day to be like, here's the guy you had
a little fleeing with. He's singing you a song on
your one one day. You know, they were doing really
malicious and then you know, you saw this kind of
struggle for who's going to be the top dog. And
in that struggle, I think all these producers thought we
need to wreck the players. That's what the show is about,
turn against them. And now we're in this kind of
(28:56):
like post that era where maybe Scott Teddy is going
to turn ship around. We don't know, but it's a
whole new series of producers that are doing things completely differently.
But also I would say Love Island has taken its
toll on our beloved game as well, because I mean,
I know when players first come to me. If I
(29:17):
think I can get them on Love Island, That's where
I'm telling them to go. I don't tell them to
go to Bachelor anymore. It's not like the pre eminent
dating format.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Let me dive into a few kind of more rapid
fire questions for you and Lizzie Chad before we kind
of get back on track to maybe a larger conversation
about the Golden and what you didn't think was great
about this season With all the I mean so many
seasons of the show, so many contestants coming through the
formula up until maybe when you know, Scott Teddy takes over.
(29:58):
We won't really know what that's going to look like,
but the formula has always stayed reasonably the same. I
do think Along Gail brought an interesting mixing into it.
He was an intellect and he knew how to manipulate
the people a little bit better than most, and so
he got a lot out of the contestants he did.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
He was great at it.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
I literally call him father in my phone. He is
father along Gail, Oh, my god.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Father Gail Ashley and I still get confused this day
when we break down a season and you have contestants
making the same stupid choices that they've made for the
last twenty plus years of this show, that they know
is going to be a death sentence to their time
on the show. So my question for the two of
you again, these need to be a little more rapid
fire because we are going to run out of time here.
(30:46):
But why do contestants still make the decisions they make
knowing that it is not going to be good for
them long term?
Speaker 7 (30:53):
Lizzy, you mean like mistakes like tattling.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Tattling, pulling the lead four times in one night, getting
in big fights with all the other women in the
house and saying, no, I'm just here for the lead
and I'm not here to make friends, And you're like, well,
that's never works out for anybody. Why do you continue
to do this when you know this isn't going to
help you with the lead long term?
Speaker 7 (31:15):
Anyways, I think there has been a little father whispering
in their ear. Oh, go pull them again, We're gonna
do more time. Hannah and Slush pulled them three times
on night one and it worked out for her. She
won the ring.
Speaker 6 (31:30):
That could be you and they also, though are in
some cases it's way more transactional than that. It's not
even an insinuation. It's like do this steal and you'll
come to paradise. That happens, you know, and it doesn't
happen to every player. High level players, players that they
bring into the season knowing they're going to make an
end run and we're going to have you in hometowns.
They don't do that. They don't like foul the four
(31:50):
tr rnis of their season's journey. But players that are
like in that bottom half, players who are going to
be like mid season floaters, and they're like, how do
I get to paradise. I'll do anything. You can literally
just exchange stuff with the producers sometimes and they'll be like, yeah, okay,
we need to go do this crazy thing. Blow this up,
get in a fight with them, and we'll bring you
to paradise.
Speaker 7 (32:11):
People have been given scripts for women, tell all of
like attack this person.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
I never saw those types of things. They might exist.
There is a line and you two know this, and
this is something that I don't even know if I'm
contractually obligated to say anything anymore. This is a game show.
It falls under the game show category. So the level
of manipulation and hey, say this and say that is
limited to none because you cannot coher so manipulated game
(32:38):
show legally, and so there is unique ways the producers
do it. And that's why when people ask is it scripted?
I always say never. I never saw a script I
did see I did have conversations about, hey, what do
you think you should do in this moment?
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah, but my response.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Has always been when people ask, the choice always to me.
So the good and the bad always laid on my shoulders. Yes,
they could say, hey, go do this, walk into that
room and steal her from the Shan Boos, and I'm like,
but she doesn't want to leave Shan Booth like. She
wants to hang out with him a lot longer. She
wants to thing out with me. I'm not going to
take her from him.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
She's good.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
The decisions always fall down to the players, and so
I think, I mean, I think without filtering it, it would
be the players that are able to be told what
to do. Is where does that come from them? Is
that just a desire to please? Is that a desire
because they don't know the show.
Speaker 6 (33:36):
I'll tell you something that I tell players very early
on is like the biggest skill you can have is
on night one, understanding where you fall in the order.
Are you one of the final three or not? Because
that decision, as I'm sure you all know, is pretty
much made in the first week.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
How would you be able to tell a place?
Speaker 3 (33:53):
It's pretty easy ask you're going to.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Be able you're going to be in top three?
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Did you know you were going to be in top three?
Speaker 5 (34:00):
Because it sounds like Chad's trying to say that if
you signed up, you should be able to tell if
you're gonna follow the top three on night one?
Speaker 3 (34:08):
WHOA if you can.
Speaker 6 (34:10):
That's a difficult skill to have, but yes, you need
to be able to tell, like am I gonna make
it to the end or not? If you believe that
answer is no. And there are certain telltale signs that
you can see if you're about to be put in
a rivalry. You can see if they're making you the villain.
There's certain things that those at least used to I
don't know how Scott Tedy's gonna run his crew, but
it used to be there were certain things you could
tell almost immediately if you weren't in the top three.
Speaker 7 (34:31):
Which producer you're paired.
Speaker 6 (34:32):
With all of that. Yeah, the producer hierarchy was an
important piece of that, which now is like doesn't exist.
But the basic idea is, if you know you're not
in the top three, then you're just scrambling to stay
in the show as long as possible so that maybe
you can make a meaningful appearance, get invited to paradise
and see where that gets you. And so I hear
(34:54):
what you're saying, Ben about like it's always down to
the players and the individual person gets to make the choice.
But I don't think that's exactly the experience of every
player who has come through this system, you know. I
know Vile kind of has ideas like that and says
a lot of things like that on his podcast, Like
because he's been at such a high level of it,
he kind of understands how it all works. But it's
(35:15):
like it doesn't work like that for everybody. Yeah, then
that much I can say.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Always thought that Ben and Nick all they always have
said it.
Speaker 5 (35:22):
They've said that over and over again, both of them,
and I am like, I don't know, I've felt far
more influenced than the two of them. Apparently I didn't
have my feet as firmly on the ground as you guys,
more maturity.
Speaker 7 (35:35):
Coming from you two though, Ashley, do you feel like
there was you had more opportunity to do what you
wanted on Housewives than Bachelor?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Well, obviously I can't speak very much.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
I have two words that I think I am okay
with saying I think I was more aware and wiser
while shooting Housewives.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Let me also speak to this a little bit because Ashley,
I think when you were on the show and there
was a moment in Winter Games where they asked me
to produce Ashley even because of our relationship, and she
knew it.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
This wasn't a secret to her.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
She was of course, this was very clear, and I
was like, hey, can Ben Ashley wants to talk about
this relationship. I think you could be the person to
do it with her it and so I did on
you know in an interview, Ashley was easily influenced and
also had a lot of trust. I didn't have the
trust that Ashley had. She saw these people have they
(36:38):
have my best interests in mind, and that's how you
went into the show where I want to Daddy Yeah,
and he's my father's weird.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
I still stay too that I'm not saying that applies
to everyone. But I think that my friendship were the producers.
I don't think that they were ever going to screw
me over entirely. I thought they're gonna have me have
a rough episode here or there, but like I think, ultimately,
and this is what ALONG tell me throughout it. He's like, listen,
just listen to him, Just trust me, just trust me.
(37:05):
And I would trust him, and look it paid off.
Speaker 6 (37:08):
I'll tell you one anecdote of a producer who will
remain nameless and is probably not even there anymore, about
a tactic used that to me was like the perfect
example of why you can never trust them even if
they're your friends. This was early on in a casting process.
This person sent a player that I was training a
picture just some random night, a text message of the
(37:32):
producer out at a bar drinking and said, when all
this is over, we got to hang out and go
get drinks. And that was gaining the trust of this player,
right maybe it was a year later. Two years later
I have another player received that exact same image and
text from that exact same producer. So this was just
a standard trust building manipulation, And to me, that's like
(37:55):
that's before they even went in the limo. That's before
they were even on the show, like an early phases
of casting, just to get them to like say more
stuff or do whatever they wanted in these casting interviews,
you know, And I'm like, that's who you're dealing with.
Speaker 5 (38:08):
I totally agree, there's some that cannot be trusted. But
I felt like, after at least my first season, I
felt like I knew that I that they cared about
my humanity.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
I don't know, maybe I'm still naive.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
You're still naive. You're very naive. Yeah, you're very naive.
And but here's what you have going for you.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
And you and I have talked about this so many times,
especially when we were still making more appearances on the show.
The thing that you have uniquely different about you is
they could tell you to do something. There's no possible
way they can ruin you, Ashley, because of who you
are as a person. So your authentic self, no, you're
(38:50):
your authentic self is going to have the internal boundaries
to not cross a line. You came very close with
Kelsey Poe that could have really backfired on you.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
It didn't.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
It didn't because of how the show came off, and
what the storyline was going into it, and how lovable
you are. But it's going to be impossible to ruin
you on any show because of who you are. Now
there's other people and we say this, and when a
league calls me before the season, my only piece of
advice for them, because I don't really have that much,
(39:23):
is stay true to yourself right down. You know this, Ashley,
But I tell the lead, write down right now, before
the show ever starts, before the magazine start getting printed,
before the media starts getting into it. Write down who
you are and what matters to you right now, because
when the show's done, you need to look back at
that and use this whole thing to just.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Push you forward, but not take away who you are.
Same thing's true during the show. When you're a contestant
in filming, don't change yourself to try to make the
camera like you. But you're just likable, so it's gonna
work for you. But you're just you also have this
like element of like, you know, emotion and your story
(40:02):
and that help. Now to go back to the questions, Yeah,
you've mentioned good players and bad players, Lizzie and Chad.
You've gone through good leads and bad leads. I think
we need to nail down for the listener though when
you speak to this, what exactly are you saying what
makes a good player and a bad player? What?
Speaker 2 (40:20):
I guess what makes a good player would be the
better question here? Or a good lead? How are you
quantifying that?
Speaker 7 (40:28):
I would say that they are navigating all of these
different audiences in a way that gets some screen time,
that is tonally the direction that they're going for. I
do think it's possible, Like a Courtney Robertson, for instance,
she got a villainetta on her season, but it worked
(40:49):
for her. She ended up getting the ring. I don't
know if that's possible to do anymore at this point
because when they villainize people, they tend to really villainize
them at this point. But yeah, I would say leaning
into what you're talking about with Ashley, that authenticity to
bring out the parts of you that are good TV,
(41:11):
that are going to get the people who are watching
to identify with you and want to follow your story afterwards.
Because a huge metric that we use is Instagram TikTok
followers of who gets the most from each week, who's
able to do the stuff to get the screen time
to be in the document, and that can include things
(41:32):
like not doing things that they're just not allowed to
show on ABC, you know, like singing songs that they
would never be allowed to share. It's a very complicated game.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Yeah, I mean I yes, this makes sense. Okay, we
have so many questions for Chad and Lizzie that I
think this is going to be a good place to
take a pause and we'll come back very soon.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Follow the Ben and Ashley Almost Famous podcasts on iHeartRadio
or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.
This is the Ben and Ashley I almost famous podcast
with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
It's almost famous podcast, and well today.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
I'm here with one of my favorite people in the world, Ashley. Hello, Hi, Ben.
Speaker 4 (00:14):
So happy to have us back together.
Speaker 5 (00:16):
It's nice weeks of us not too long together, it's
too long.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
We have a really special episode today, Ashley, you want
to tell everybody who we have on and why. Maybe
I think a little background to why they're here, like
where why this is now could be interesting.
Speaker 5 (00:32):
Oh, I'm so excited to have our guests on today.
It is Chad Culchin and Lizzie Pace from the Game
of Roses podcast and they're the authors of How to
Win the Bachelor, which is something that Teresa you said
kind of the Golden Bachelor to possibly win the game
because your whole thing, guys, is that you think that
(00:55):
the Bachelor is not fundamentally about love.
Speaker 6 (00:56):
It is a sport, That's correct.
Speaker 7 (01:00):
Are you saying that you don't?
Speaker 6 (01:02):
Yeah, listen. Also, just off the top, I want to
say this is an honor for us because both of
you are two of the greatest players who've ever lived. Acually, obviously,
you have revolutionized the tier play game that two on
one date that you had in the bad Lands against
Kelsey Poe, maybe one of the most dangerous villains we've
ever seen in our beloved game of all time.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I think you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 6 (01:25):
Don't get me started.
Speaker 5 (01:26):
He even sounds like yourn ESPN commentary right now.
Speaker 6 (01:31):
I mean, look to us, it is a sport, and
we wrote this book called How to Win the Bachelor.
It's kind of like the money Ball of Bachelor. It's
really based on mathematical metrics of what a player can
do in any given situation. And we're not saying that
love isn't involved. We're saying it very much is so too.
Is a very rote format created by producers that you
(01:52):
have to navigate to make it to the end of
that game, especially if you want to win the ring,
especially if you want to find love. But uh yeah,
Gary accused Teresa of reading our book or being found
out reading our book while she was in the mansion.
But I don't know how true that is. She claims
that wasn't true.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, I was gonna say, has that been confirmed before
we like nail it down and say it happened.
Speaker 6 (02:14):
She went on Dear Shandy and said that she had
like a trial on Audible and listened to the first chapter.
That's all she would come clean about.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Do we have to make this like a wrong reasons thing?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Like if you've read exact you can't be there.
Speaker 7 (02:31):
I would say it makes sense to go read a
book called how to Win a Bachelor when you're going
on the Bachelor. Why does it have to be for
the wrong reasons?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I really one.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I think we're going to dive in and have a
really fun conversation today because there's a lot of questions.
I want to ask you that you probably have studied
better than Ashley and I. But I read Sean Lowe's
book before, like on the plane to be the Bachelor see.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
And I read Courny R.
Speaker 7 (03:00):
Robertson's big reveal how dare you study?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yeah? How dare you get prepared?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
No?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
And I remember my reasoning obviously, I wanted to do
well at this thing. I guess I.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Don't remember if it was before as the Bachelor. On
The Bachelor it was one of the two. But this
was such a mystery world at the time that you
get signed up for this thing and you're flying to
LA to maybe be a part of it. For almost
three months, you have no clue what you're walking into,
and for me it was this. I have a lot
of questions. Does anybody have any answers? Yeah, and looking
(03:35):
for any answers possible. I have no problem with people
preparing for the show. I do think though the motivation
behind preparing could become the issue.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
But that motivation. At this point in reality TV media
TV production, no one is going on any reality show
without the primary motivation being fame or at least being
an equal motivation to finding love, especially in all these
dating formats, because you see what can happen, especially now
in Love Island USA. You can walk out of a
good season's performance with five six million followers on whatever platform,
(04:08):
and you're making tons of money. That's the primary motivation.
And if you find somebody to date for six months
or maybe even mary, great, that's a great, like kind
of added bonus.
Speaker 7 (04:20):
At least at this point, I feel like Ashley was
actually one of the first Bachelor influencers ever.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Arguably, let's blame this trend on Ashley. I really want
to blame it on a.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Very lucky.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
We were cast the perfect time, Very Lucky.
Speaker 6 (04:40):
Come on, you're one of the greatest players who's ever
played this game, hands down to it you have a ninth.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Ok, all right, I will admit like there is there
is some strategy to my game afterward, but in the moment,
I don't know if there ever was.
Speaker 6 (04:53):
Your audition tape was work.
Speaker 7 (04:56):
I was strategic the entire time.
Speaker 6 (04:57):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You knew the game intrinsically,
you had watched every season.
Speaker 7 (05:01):
That's communication helps.
Speaker 6 (05:03):
You understand the format of it. You know what I
mean now, kind of to what you were talking about, Ben,
I've been using our book and kind of like Taylor,
making strategies for players and secretly training people to infiltrate
that game for the past four years and have had
very high levels of success kind of playing the Bachelor
from outside of it. So you know, I know that
(05:24):
there's kind of always this argument of like is it
for the wrong reasons? Is it for the right reasons?
Are they really there for love? And it's like some
of those players I'm training, are there Their primary reason
at least that they tell me that they want to
go in is like I do want to get married
and have kids. So I try to help them get
that objective by navigating like you're saying, Ben, this weird,
esoteric game that producers purposely keep obfuscated from people so
(05:49):
that you don't know what they're going to do. You
don't know what kind of manipulations they're going to pull
on you. But if you know what's likely going into
that situation, you have a much better chance of making
it through to the end.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Ashley, I'm going to let you run with this for
a bit, and I'm going to write down some questions
that come up along the way, because I feel like
we do have a lot to talk to both Chad
and Lizzie about. But I really I don't know if
we can do it together because I do think we're
going to be jumping on top of each other whole time.
So you take it away for a bit and then
I'll come in and be like, Hey, give me my space.
Speaker 6 (06:21):
Guys. You one question, Ben, before we get into the
duly questions.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
You can ask me anything.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
What was it like to play against in season eleven
a bachelorette to play against the greatest player of all time?
Nick Vail?
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Oh my, wow?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
The greatest player of all time?
Speaker 5 (06:35):
He is the great way we disagree if you want
his post show he is he gone four shows. In
his fourth show, he became the Bachelor. That is the
greatest player?
Speaker 7 (06:46):
Or do you only need one season, Caitlin Bristow.
Speaker 6 (06:49):
But he has more screen time than anybody in the
history of the game, more total roses, total kisses, total dates,
two back to back end runs in season ten and eleven,
crash the season second before Fantasy Suites, and run on
Bachelor Paradise season three. No engagement, but he did select
the jewel and then he was the Bachelor. No one
has ever done that. No one's coming close.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, let's sit in this first second before I hand
this off to Ashley.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Okay, would you actually.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Claim, though, that that would make him a good player,
because I feel like he went against everything you would
have said to do to get to the end by
what you just mentioned.
Speaker 7 (07:23):
Yeah, it's different metrics. Caitlin Brestow only needed one season
of Bachelor to become the Bachelorette. In my mind, Nick
had to keep auditioning again and again because.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
He was a villain.
Speaker 6 (07:35):
I think to go from villain to Bachelor is one
of the most difficult things you can possibly do in
reality television of any genre, any show, and he did
it successfully. Yes, he had to have the Redemption Tour
in season three of Paradise, but he played that perfectly
as well. And obviously it's kind of hard to argue
with his success after the show, but I think in
Game he just did more to revolution. He was the
(07:57):
sport than anybody else has that crashing Kaitlyn Bristo's seas
in an episode four, having sex with her before the
Fantasy Suites, making it all the way to the end,
getting Sean Booth dude not even be able to say
his name, to call him the other guy. We've just
never seen a psychological manipulation that strong. I don't think
from me, guys.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
And I also think we have to know one of
the most iconic moments, and I do you know, Nick
is a friend, but I do think this is a
moment he probably looks back on goes eh that maybe
it was a little too much. Was the call out
of Andy Dorfman on the live show where she was
not prepared to have to respond to the claims and
the things that he said.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Yeah, it should have.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Put him in like, should have pushed him out of
the franchise, but it made him this kind of iconic figure.
To where Caitlin brought him back on. Okay, So to
answer your question, I would say this, I was such
in a different place during that season, meaning Kitlyn and
I had such a strong friendship and such a strong
(08:58):
comfort with each other. I really didn't doubt that she
would keep me around a long time simply based on
the idea that she had. It kind of was everything
fell into place for me. You had two people fighting
with each other, hating each other, couldn't speak to each other,
and you had me in the middle being like, here's
the thing. I'm not gonna make life hard for anybody here.
(09:22):
I'm just gonna stay along for as long as you
need because Caitlyn, you and I both know we're not
getting to get out at.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
The end of this. But I'm down to hang.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
And she kept me around. So I never really said
that to her, No, not really in those words.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
It was unspoken.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeahs, I think Caitlyn would be Caitlyn would be fine
with me telling her telling this. We we literally had
our one on one like fantasy suite date, and one
of the first things she asked me, She'll be so
embarrassed I said this, But one of the first things
she asked me, was, uh, what do you think of
Nick and Sean? And I was like, Caitlyn, you're gonna
(09:59):
ask me about the two other guys while we're in
the fantasy suite and she said, I know. And I
was like, we both know. Like there's we've known this
the whole time. I'm not getting married at then of.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
This to you.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
But you still had fun in the fantasy suite, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
We had a great time. We danced a lot. But
she's great.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I love Kaitlin, but I didn't really involve myself in
that whole thing. I mean I was really removed from it, honestly.
Speaker 7 (10:24):
Yeah, you said, team Sean is what I'm gathering.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I love Sean, I love Nick.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
At the time, I really just had no doubt she
was getting end up with Sean, Like there was really
no question in my mind.
Speaker 5 (10:37):
Yeah, Okay, Now I have to talk about one Chad.
You mentioned that you're training men. Have you trained anyone
who's gotten on the show?
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (10:48):
Yeah, almost every season for the past four years, name drop.
Speaker 5 (10:54):
Is there a contract?
Speaker 6 (10:56):
Uh, there's no contract. But basically what I guess, like
Lizzie and I's backstory is that we're TV comedy writers.
That's where we met on a show ten years ago
that was on NBC called Bad Judge. And so my
kind of goal with training people has always been to
just collect a lot of interviews and stuff and training
sessions that we've had, record the zooms, record them in
(11:17):
person if they can be recorded in person, to maybe
sell it as like a reality show later of like
gaming the Bachelor basically. But I always make the deal
with all my players you can participate in that if
you want to. I will never out whoever I'm training,
because I know some of them are still in the system,
you know, maybe going to wind up on a paradise
or maybe going to be a bachelorette, you know that
(11:38):
kind of thing. So I don't want to like foul
that for them. But the two players that have come
out publicly that I have trained or Cassidy tim Brooks,
who was on Clayton Eckert season, we did an episode
of our show interviewing her about that and kind of
talking about like did the training help, did it hinder you?
Was it like just jumbling your head blah blah blah.
And then I also trained Taylor Hale, who went on
(12:00):
to never be on the bachelor, but one Big Brother
three or four years ago.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Oh, interesting, do the same rules apply?
Speaker 6 (12:08):
Many of the same rules. Yeah. Like a PTC, for example,
is a personal tragedy card. That's when you have to
air your kind of most intimate secret about some horrible
trauma that has happened to you in your life. That
applies to all reality games. T your play replies to
all applies to all reality games, even for the right reasons,
although it's not as prominent in like game games like Survivor,
(12:29):
Big Brother, Traders, whatever, where you actually get kind of
rewarded for lying to people, but still the idea of
are you there for the right reasons versus the wrong reasons?
And in this kind of modern world, the wrong reasons
is always influencing. Basically, if you even say the word Instagram,
you know you get thrown under the bus, which is
(12:49):
interesting because our next bachelorette is literally an influencer.
Speaker 7 (12:54):
There's also we say that you're playing to four audiences.
This is a big part of our of core ethos.
Is the first audience is the bachelor bachelorette who you're dating.
Second audience is the rest of the players, third is
the producer's Fourth is like bachel Nation or Big Brother Nation,
(13:14):
and you're kind of having to juggle all of those
at once. And I would say that that really applies
in Big Brother. You don't so much have the first audience.
You're not trying to romantically get with someone, or maybe
you are, I would say you should, But the rest
of them apply.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
There are a couple of different ways of winning.
Speaker 5 (13:43):
I think in your guys's definition, you could be like me,
where I like literally never really want anything.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
I mean, I guess I technically won Bachelor Winter Games,
which is it was.
Speaker 5 (13:53):
Silly, but I understood the trajectory in which they were
going with me.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Do you still view it as winning Bachelor?
Speaker 4 (13:59):
I never I know that it's it was.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
It was sweet because it was the producer's way of
being Like Ashley was never the Bachelorette. She would have
been a very polarizing bachelorette. Let's give her this little
you know, two weeks spin off the thing, and then
there's winning in the in the way that Nick wins.
Speaker 7 (14:20):
I would say, you won, you won Bachelor Paradise. You won.
You're now the first person to ever be a housewife
from Bachelor, which is like, in my mind, I'm obsessed
with the housewife, So congratulations.
Speaker 6 (14:33):
Yeah, that is I mean I would say this in
reference to like your time in game.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
I think you were It's different from Ben's.
Speaker 5 (14:42):
I wanted to bring this up because like there's Nick,
there's Ben, there's like Hannah Brown, there's Caitlin, and like
I'm just thinking about all these different ways of winning.
Speaker 6 (14:50):
Absolutely, I think you were like one of the first
players really like ahead of your time, playing a modern,
modern game back when it was kind of in its
golden era, still in at like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen era.
What your focus seemed to be or maybe this is
just how it played out, was being like one of
the players that really popped out of the show. So
you finished in ninth place, but that doesn't matter. You've
(15:13):
got a giant, successful podcast, millions of followers, you're an influencer,
you come back into the group dating format, you're kind
of ever present in the culture of the show, even
though you never want a ring or a crown, And
that really is like where modern reality play is at.
It's like Carolyn Weiger on last season of Traders, she
didn't come close to winning that game, but she was
(15:35):
probably the most memorable player and as a result, tons
of Instagram followers, tons of TikTok followers. She's in all
these other reality shows now, and so it's in the
modern reality game where we have what we call third
wave reality TV, which is like a Trader's where they
take people from different reality disciplines to go head to head.
Will a housewife beat a Big Brother player? Will bachelor
(15:57):
overcome survivor? You know? Those shows are where you're trying
to get to so that you can exist in that
ecosphere for like a decade probably I think into the
near future. And that doesn't really mean that you need
to win any of your rookie shows. It just means
you need to be entertaining.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
I let me jump in here for a second.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Ashley, Yeah, I'm so entertained.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
Rookie shows.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
No, let me jump in here for a second. Because
Chad and Lizzy, I do think they're I need a
clear definition from the two of you, because I agree
with you and everything you're saying, But I do think
the gameplay of it is interesting when you bring up
an Ashley, because what I love about Ashley, what I
(16:45):
like respect about her. Why we've done this show for
ten years together and it has been a success. I
have only viewed Ashley as the most authentic player to
ever play. I don't think she was ever were for me.
There were moments where I was like, what is the
right or wrong decision here? How is this gonna?
Speaker 5 (17:06):
Like?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
How do I navigate the moment I'm in? Especially as
the Bachelor, It's all you do is navigating moments right
or wrong. For me, I've always seen Ashley in my
real life when cameras aren't going or when she's on
television as authentically herself, which in my opinion, means she
(17:28):
would be dominant in any game she plays because she's
polarizing and she jumps off the camera at you. But
to call her a player assumes I think that there
is some type of strategy, and Ashley could tell me
if I'm wrong. I don't think she's ever had a
strategy when she goes on a show in her life
other than maybe one that she was uncomfortable going on.
(17:50):
But Bachelor is like I'm diving in and being myself
from the moment I get there.
Speaker 6 (17:55):
I mean, I think, whether you have a strategy or not,
if you step on the baseball field and they put
a in your hand. You got to swing it, you know.
And that's what Bachelor is. It's like when you step
out of that limit, or really a game starts when
you start applying or get nominated, because the producers are
building an archetypal kind of image of who they want
you to be in the show. The good girl in
your case, the virgin Ashlely, the nice guy next door
(18:18):
maybe for you, Ben or unlovable kind of became your
you know, your Moniker. But there are plenty of players
Taylor Frankie Paul is one of them, I think, who
are not overtly strategizing. They're not intellectualizing it. They are
just natural, raw, kind of forces of nature. I think
you were that as well, Ashley, just like Ben was saying.
But it doesn't matter like what your personal play style is.
(18:39):
There are some very cerebral players. There are some who
are just flying by the seat of their pants. Still though,
all of those different play styles are playing in the
same game, both against and with each other, at least
in Bachelor, and you have to navigate it. You have to,
Like you knew what a two on one was before
you went on that one with Kelsey Poe, right, you
knew what like a group date is or a one
on one date is. These things are not normal in
(19:02):
everyday human life. These are structures that the game has made.
And if you walk into the game knowing a little
bit about like the order of how they'll happen, what
is the kind of structure of a season? When do
I get to hometowns? Even that is preparing for something
that is a manufactured game.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
That's fair, That's good. Okay.
Speaker 7 (19:20):
I'll never forget when I actually put on the princess
dress when another player was going on the pretty woman date.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Like I will say that was very thought through. I
thought that was hilarious. I was like, let's see here
and let's.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
Be very tug and cheek and yeah, the other girls
did not recognize that, which was hilarious.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
I mean that's part of like what at least I
try to train all my players, is like, if there's
a camera on, you do something, and I think like
that that moment we call that mansion free play antics
when they're off on a data a one on one. Yeah,
if there's a camera in the mansion or wherever they
have you, you know, in a hotel, if you're international
or whatever, do something, do a song, do a dance,
(20:07):
make something up, get into a weird conversation about UFOs, whatever,
just so that they have that footage because they're always
going to cut back to the house. They do that
in every date to see, like what are the other
players doing? Be the at least the star of that
little show, that little scene.
Speaker 7 (20:21):
You know, if you're crying eating a corn on the
cob in the princess dress, they're not going to use that.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
I thought it was I had, you know, I had
different relationships with the producers, and I had one producer
that I knew that I would go to for like
playing like dress.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Up moments, and we had the best time.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
Like we were literally just gonna sit at home and
like sit around the campfire for like the zillion times.
I was like, let's just like do a little skit anyway.
I want to know who you guys think is the
best lead ever. Because we're sitting next to Ben Higgins
and now I'll hand it over to Bed before we
get into it or rundown questions he can ask all
(21:03):
his personals because you know, you guys fed my ego
a little bit.
Speaker 6 (21:06):
Yeah, you're feeding ours just by talking to us honestly,
I mean, I don't know I or sorry, we do
you want us to answer who we think the best
leads are.
Speaker 5 (21:14):
Yeah, and it's okay, you don't have to include Ben
in there, but like I think that when you think
about historically that he's definitely like probably the Prince Charming Bachelor.
Speaker 6 (21:24):
Well, the bigger thing that you did, Ben was was
do what we call love level four, which is an
I love you or I'm in love with you to
your two finalists before the final rows ceremony, which had
never happened. That I think, for better or worse, and
everybody can have their own opinion on this, kicked the
game into a direction that we're we're there now where
now almost every season you're seeing multiple love level fours
(21:47):
coming from the lead to multiple players, and that idea
of like a lead cannot tell anybody that they are
at love level four and tell the very final moment
at the altar. Basically that has been shattered in Season
twenty Bachelor, then season and.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Except for mel who had love for no one.
Speaker 6 (22:07):
How dare you?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
How dare you for his shoes?
Speaker 6 (22:11):
Man? That was a rough season. That was a rough season,
ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 7 (22:14):
Yeah, I would say Ben is definitely up there. I
feel like you're kind of one of the golden children
who keeps getting asked back over and over again, whether
you seem happy to be there or not. Like in
Winter Games, I think you came off as, like we
discussed for tr R for the Right Reasons as the
(22:36):
primary like thing you have to convey in the game,
and I think you come off as one of the
most for the Right Reasons leads of all time. I
have a soft spot for Charlie O'Connell Bachelor season seven,
who made the show his own, made them move to
New York, picked up Chris Harrison, did all sorts of
(22:59):
like really extravagant plays that we had not seen before.
It had been mostly you know, very by the book
up until that point.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Yeah, I've ever seen that, so I'll have to watch that.
Speaker 7 (23:13):
But Caitlin Bristow for me, is the best player of
all time. I think that she just was such a
star in a season of stars mind you on Prince
Farmington Crystal season. I think that she's you know, she's
gone on to have a very successful post game career
(23:35):
without getting you know, the villain edit that maybe the
person Chad's about to say did get.
Speaker 6 (23:42):
I don't think Vile is the best lead. I think
he was the best player. I think the best lead
of all time. I have kind of two One is
based on the season that was turned in that I
think in a lot of cases, seasons are defined by
their players, but sometimes the lead can really be like
the most important player in a season, and I think
Hannah Brown was that in Bachelorett fifteen. So many iconic
(24:03):
moments she I think raised the level of play of
the players on her season, kind of like Michael Jordan
did with the Bulls when he was you know, back
in the day. I think you got performances out of Tyler, Cameron, Pilot,
p jed Wyatt, even Luke Parker that you don't get
if she's not the Bachelorette. And then I would say,
in terms of sacrifice to the game, like how much
(24:23):
have you left on the field and given to this thing?
I think Rachel Lindsay is far and away at the
top of that list. I think what she was asked
to do and repeatedly asked to do even after her
season as a lead, was insane, and she just kept
doing it and you know, even to the end when
she did that extra interview with Chris Harrison that changed
(24:46):
the franchise forever. You know, she is like, I think,
in the top three or five most important people who
has ever come through this franchise. And I think her season,
if you go back and rewatch it, there were just
so many insane things they did to her, like putting
Lee Garrett on that season and then having him and
Kenny King kind of go head to head in like
(25:06):
a racism argument that they had to solve that the
men tell all, it was just wild that season. So
those are my two answers.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I think that though, was also a turning point for
the franchise where they asked they they were being asked
from the public to broach and approach the issue and
make the show more diverse, and so the show said, okay,
let's do that. And then they, in my opinion, went
way too far too quickly, like instead of making it
(25:37):
a really beautiful story and something that hey, we've heard
from you, they did they asked Rachel to carry the
weight of these conversations in the midst of a season,
and it felt it felt ugly, honestly it just felt
disgusting at times, and I think they never full They've
never really adapted to a healthy place of where people
(26:02):
can have conversations and understand and grow and be exposed to.
They just kind of like forced it down everybody's throats
in a way that made Rachel be the spokesperson and
that felt weird.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
It felt very odd. Yeah, and I think we grapped
onto that.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I do think though a lot of the names you mentioned,
and I think it's where the show and I want
to hear your opinion of this now. I think it's
where the show has fallen flat is. Back in the
day they had contestants, like in Ashley, they had leads,
and I would if I was a lead today. I
don't think maybe I'm as popular as I was when
(26:38):
I came on, because every season that was something uniquely different.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
You go from Caitlin Bristow, the one sneaking out of
her hotel room and you know, getting people to fight
over her, and you know all the like funny comments
that were made from Caitlyn to me, you know, you're
more like, hey, that's just the guy that I would
in my neighborhood. To the Nick Files, who like, yes,
(27:04):
had the villain edits and was a villain for years
and people were intrigued by what is he going to
do and how messys is gonna get. They mixed it
up a lot back then, and now it feels like
we've gone in this kind of like rhythmatic. Every season
kind of has the same thing. The leads really can't
even talk to the contestants. They're not really good at it.
(27:26):
They don't ask any questions leading up to a mel
who probably will be the tipping point, the turning point
hopefully for us to say, let's get back to something
maybe a little messier and more interesting, because we've gone
in this like very boring status quo for so long.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
Let's just throw in that Joey was a great peak
in the middle of some valley.
Speaker 6 (27:51):
Yeah, I think, I mean for my money, and I
could give a two hour long college dissertation on this.
But it started in Bachelor season eighteen, which I believe
was twenty fourteen one, Pablo Galavus, the first real true
villain Bachelor. I think the producer tier got kind of
a taste of blood in their mouth with that season,
and they were like, every lead, we're gonna shot on them.
(28:13):
We're gonna make them stupid or ridiculous fools or just
like straight villains. And after all Gale left, he knew
how to kind of ride that line. When he left
after Colt Underwood season, there was like this power vacuum
and you can kind of see it in Pilot Pete
season where they're really turning those players against each other.
They bring Chase Rice in on Victoria Fuller's one on
(28:35):
one day to be like, here's the guy you had
a little fleeing with. He's singing you a song on
your one one day. You know, they were doing really
malicious and then you know, you saw this kind of
struggle for who's going to be the top dog. And
in that struggle, I think all these producers thought we
need to wreck the players. That's what the show is about,
turn against them. And now we're in this kind of
(28:56):
like post that era where maybe Scott Teddy is going
to turn ship around. We don't know, but it's a
whole new series of producers that are doing things completely differently.
But also I would say Love Island has taken its
toll on our beloved game as well, because I mean,
I know when players first come to me. If I
(29:17):
think I can get them on Love Island, That's where
I'm telling them to go. I don't tell them to
go to Bachelor anymore. It's not like the pre eminent
dating format.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Let me dive into a few kind of more rapid
fire questions for you and Lizzie Chad before we kind
of get back on track to maybe a larger conversation
about the Golden and what you didn't think was great
about this season With all the I mean so many
seasons of the show, so many contestants coming through the
formula up until maybe when you know, Scott Teddy takes over.
(29:58):
We won't really know what that's going to look like,
but the formula has always stayed reasonably the same. I
do think Along Gail brought an interesting mixing into it.
He was an intellect and he knew how to manipulate
the people a little bit better than most, and so
he got a lot out of the contestants he did.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
He was great at it.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
I literally call him father in my phone. He is
father along Gail, Oh, my god.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Father Gail Ashley and I still get confused this day
when we break down a season and you have contestants
making the same stupid choices that they've made for the
last twenty plus years of this show, that they know
is going to be a death sentence to their time
on the show. So my question for the two of
you again, these need to be a little more rapid
fire because we are going to run out of time here.
(30:46):
But why do contestants still make the decisions they make
knowing that it is not going to be good for
them long term?
Speaker 7 (30:53):
Lizzy, you mean like mistakes like tattling.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Tattling, pulling the lead four times in one night, getting
in big fights with all the other women in the
house and saying, no, I'm just here for the lead
and I'm not here to make friends, And you're like, well,
that's never works out for anybody. Why do you continue
to do this when you know this isn't going to
help you with the lead long term?
Speaker 7 (31:15):
Anyways, I think there has been a little father whispering
in their ear. Oh, go pull them again, We're gonna
do more time. Hannah and Slush pulled them three times
on night one and it worked out for her. She
won the ring.
Speaker 6 (31:30):
That could be you and they also, though are in
some cases it's way more transactional than that. It's not
even an insinuation. It's like do this steal and you'll
come to paradise. That happens, you know, and it doesn't
happen to every player. High level players, players that they
bring into the season knowing they're going to make an
end run and we're going to have you in hometowns.
They don't do that. They don't like foul the four
(31:50):
tr rnis of their season's journey. But players that are
like in that bottom half, players who are going to
be like mid season floaters, and they're like, how do
I get to paradise. I'll do anything. You can literally
just exchange stuff with the producers sometimes and they'll be like, yeah, okay,
we need to go do this crazy thing. Blow this up,
get in a fight with them, and we'll bring you
to paradise.
Speaker 7 (32:11):
People have been given scripts for women, tell all of
like attack this person.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
I never saw those types of things. They might exist.
There is a line and you two know this, and
this is something that I don't even know if I'm
contractually obligated to say anything anymore. This is a game show.
It falls under the game show category. So the level
of manipulation and hey, say this and say that is
limited to none because you cannot coher so manipulated game
(32:38):
show legally, and so there is unique ways the producers
do it. And that's why when people ask is it scripted?
I always say never. I never saw a script I
did see I did have conversations about, hey, what do
you think you should do in this moment?
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah, but my response.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Has always been when people ask, the choice always to me.
So the good and the bad always laid on my shoulders. Yes,
they could say, hey, go do this, walk into that
room and steal her from the Shan Boos, and I'm like,
but she doesn't want to leave Shan Booth like. She
wants to hang out with him a lot longer. She
wants to thing out with me. I'm not going to
take her from him.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
She's good.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
The decisions always fall down to the players, and so
I think, I mean, I think without filtering it, it would
be the players that are able to be told what
to do. Is where does that come from them? Is
that just a desire to please? Is that a desire
because they don't know the show.
Speaker 6 (33:36):
I'll tell you something that I tell players very early
on is like the biggest skill you can have is
on night one, understanding where you fall in the order.
Are you one of the final three or not? Because
that decision, as I'm sure you all know, is pretty
much made in the first week.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
How would you be able to tell a place?
Speaker 3 (33:53):
It's pretty easy ask you're going to.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Be able you're going to be in top three?
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Did you know you were going to be in top three?
Speaker 5 (34:00):
Because it sounds like Chad's trying to say that if
you signed up, you should be able to tell if
you're gonna follow the top three on night one?
Speaker 3 (34:08):
WHOA if you can.
Speaker 6 (34:10):
That's a difficult skill to have, but yes, you need
to be able to tell, like am I gonna make
it to the end or not? If you believe that
answer is no. And there are certain telltale signs that
you can see if you're about to be put in
a rivalry. You can see if they're making you the villain.
There's certain things that those at least used to I
don't know how Scott Tedy's gonna run his crew, but
it used to be there were certain things you could
tell almost immediately if you weren't in the top three.
Speaker 7 (34:31):
Which producer you're paired.
Speaker 6 (34:32):
With all of that. Yeah, the producer hierarchy was an
important piece of that, which now is like doesn't exist.
But the basic idea is, if you know you're not
in the top three, then you're just scrambling to stay
in the show as long as possible so that maybe
you can make a meaningful appearance, get invited to paradise
and see where that gets you. And so I hear
(34:54):
what you're saying, Ben about like it's always down to
the players and the individual person gets to make the choice.
But I don't think that's exactly the experience of every
player who has come through this system, you know. I
know Vile kind of has ideas like that and says
a lot of things like that on his podcast, Like
because he's been at such a high level of it,
he kind of understands how it all works. But it's
(35:15):
like it doesn't work like that for everybody. Yeah, then
that much I can say.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Always thought that Ben and Nick all they always have
said it.
Speaker 5 (35:22):
They've said that over and over again, both of them,
and I am like, I don't know, I've felt far
more influenced than the two of them. Apparently I didn't
have my feet as firmly on the ground as you guys,
more maturity.
Speaker 7 (35:35):
Coming from you two though, Ashley, do you feel like
there was you had more opportunity to do what you
wanted on Housewives than Bachelor?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Well, obviously I can't speak very much.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
I have two words that I think I am okay
with saying I think I was more aware and wiser
while shooting Housewives.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Let me also speak to this a little bit because Ashley,
I think when you were on the show and there
was a moment in Winter Games where they asked me
to produce Ashley even because of our relationship, and she
knew it.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
This wasn't a secret to her.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
She was of course, this was very clear, and I
was like, hey, can Ben Ashley wants to talk about
this relationship. I think you could be the person to
do it with her it and so I did on
you know in an interview, Ashley was easily influenced and
also had a lot of trust. I didn't have the
trust that Ashley had. She saw these people have they
(36:38):
have my best interests in mind, and that's how you
went into the show where I want to Daddy Yeah,
and he's my father's weird.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
I still stay too that I'm not saying that applies
to everyone. But I think that my friendship were the producers.
I don't think that they were ever going to screw
me over entirely. I thought they're gonna have me have
a rough episode here or there, but like I think, ultimately,
and this is what ALONG tell me throughout it. He's like, listen,
just listen to him, Just trust me, just trust me.
(37:05):
And I would trust him, and look it paid off.
Speaker 6 (37:08):
I'll tell you one anecdote of a producer who will
remain nameless and is probably not even there anymore, about
a tactic used that to me was like the perfect
example of why you can never trust them even if
they're your friends. This was early on in a casting process.
This person sent a player that I was training a
picture just some random night, a text message of the
(37:32):
producer out at a bar drinking and said, when all
this is over, we got to hang out and go
get drinks. And that was gaining the trust of this player,
right maybe it was a year later. Two years later
I have another player received that exact same image and
text from that exact same producer. So this was just
a standard trust building manipulation, And to me, that's like
(37:55):
that's before they even went in the limo. That's before
they were even on the show, like an early phases
of casting, just to get them to like say more
stuff or do whatever they wanted in these casting interviews,
you know, And I'm like, that's who you're dealing with.
Speaker 5 (38:08):
I totally agree, there's some that cannot be trusted. But
I felt like, after at least my first season, I
felt like I knew that I that they cared about
my humanity.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
I don't know, maybe I'm still naive.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
You're still naive. You're very naive. Yeah, you're very naive.
And but here's what you have going for you.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
And you and I have talked about this so many times,
especially when we were still making more appearances on the show.
The thing that you have uniquely different about you is
they could tell you to do something. There's no possible
way they can ruin you, Ashley, because of who you
are as a person. So your authentic self, no, you're
(38:50):
your authentic self is going to have the internal boundaries
to not cross a line. You came very close with
Kelsey Poe that could have really backfired on you.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
It didn't.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
It didn't because of how the show came off, and
what the storyline was going into it, and how lovable
you are. But it's going to be impossible to ruin
you on any show because of who you are. Now
there's other people and we say this, and when a
league calls me before the season, my only piece of
advice for them, because I don't really have that much,
(39:23):
is stay true to yourself right down. You know this, Ashley,
But I tell the lead, write down right now, before
the show ever starts, before the magazine start getting printed,
before the media starts getting into it. Write down who
you are and what matters to you right now, because
when the show's done, you need to look back at
that and use this whole thing to just.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Push you forward, but not take away who you are.
Same thing's true during the show. When you're a contestant
in filming, don't change yourself to try to make the
camera like you. But you're just likable, so it's gonna
work for you. But you're just you also have this
like element of like, you know, emotion and your story
(40:02):
and that help. Now to go back to the questions, Yeah,
you've mentioned good players and bad players, Lizzie and Chad.
You've gone through good leads and bad leads. I think
we need to nail down for the listener though when
you speak to this, what exactly are you saying what
makes a good player and a bad player? What?
Speaker 2 (40:20):
I guess what makes a good player would be the
better question here? Or a good lead? How are you
quantifying that?
Speaker 7 (40:28):
I would say that they are navigating all of these
different audiences in a way that gets some screen time,
that is tonally the direction that they're going for. I
do think it's possible, Like a Courtney Robertson, for instance,
she got a villainetta on her season, but it worked
(40:49):
for her. She ended up getting the ring. I don't
know if that's possible to do anymore at this point
because when they villainize people, they tend to really villainize
them at this point. But yeah, I would say leaning
into what you're talking about with Ashley, that authenticity to
bring out the parts of you that are good TV,
(41:11):
that are going to get the people who are watching
to identify with you and want to follow your story afterwards.
Because a huge metric that we use is Instagram TikTok
followers of who gets the most from each week, who's
able to do the stuff to get the screen time
to be in the document, and that can include things
(41:32):
like not doing things that they're just not allowed to
show on ABC, you know, like singing songs that they
would never be allowed to share. It's a very complicated game.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Yeah, I mean I yes, this makes sense. Okay, we
have so many questions for Chad and Lizzie that I
think this is going to be a good place to
take a pause and we'll come back very soon.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Follow the Ben and Ashley Almost Famous podcasts on iHeartRadio
or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Ben Higgins
Ashley Iaconetti
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