Almost Famous: A Deeper Understanding

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is the Benn and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast
with i R Radio. Welcome to another almost famous podcast. Uh.
This one is unique and it's special, and I think
it's timely. You know obviously we we usually do our
podcasts on Monday's. Uh the release like late Monday night

(00:23):
early Tuesday morning. Uh. This you know, this week's podcast
had a response that we felt as a team that
we should do a special episode for. It's probably not
an episode that you are expecting. Uh, this will look
different than most Almost Famous episodes, but I wanted to start,

(00:45):
uh just speaking to all of you as listeners. I
know there are some very sensitive subjects going around Bachelor
Nation right now. As we mentioned the last podcast, they're
not fun to talk about. It is not why we
do this podcast. It is not why I sit down,
own and work through this podcast. It is not the

(01:05):
fun moments, and it's not things we like to talk about.
But this is a podcast about what is happening in
Bachelor Nation. We are trying our best to cover those
using the information that we know and sharing that with
the listeners because that's what we've committed to. We as

(01:26):
hosts don't have a script. There's no practice for this,
and we say things in the moment that can be misconstrued,
and our communication can sometimes fail, and mistakes happen. Ah,
I I know they happen. They happen, happen often with me,

(01:47):
and I'm sure if you're a listener you also can
relate with You've said things in the moment that you
didn't really mean, and somehow they got communicating in a
way that you never intended them to be. Communication aided
and they sat with whoever you were talking to in
a way that maybe was um offensive and you had

(02:09):
to recommunicate, re explain yourself. And that's what I have
to do now. I know. On the last podcast, I
made the comment that love makes you do crazy things
that at no level, and I want to reinforce this
was justifying any actions. It was never my intention and

(02:30):
it's never my hope and it's not my feelings to
justify any actions that have happened within Bachelor Nation. That
comment was irresponsible at best. It was something that I
said in the moment that I would have loved to
follow up on and say, yeah, that's not what I meant.

(02:52):
I don't think true, healthy, good love makes you do
crazy things I don't want to justify anybody's actions here.
There is no justification for it. But I do want
to make it clear that nothing I said was in
support of any actions that are damaging to any other human.

(03:13):
What I want to do is say things that help
and hurt, and we want to walk this line on
sensitive subjects. To do that, it's not easy and I'm
not great at it. I try really hard, and I'm
gonna fail. And if you're listening to this podcast for
the last how many years we've been doing it, you
know I failed. But I also hope you can see

(03:36):
that we're trying. This is not fun for us to
sit down and make anybody's life worse. It's not to
hope for this. It doesn't do anything for Ashley or I.
Our hope is that we sit down, we discuss a
show that we've experienced and that you all watch and
you all enjoy, and at the end of it, we
wash our hands clean and we move on with the week.

(03:58):
And this week it's heavy on my chest because I
know there was words said that have sat with you
all and that have offended you all, and for that,
I am sorry. It was not my intent. There is
no justification within those words, they are irresponsible words. I
think at best, I was trying to explain the excuses
that have been given to why things happened within Bachelor Nation.

(04:22):
But I'm sorry, I'm not justifying any actions. I don't
want anybody to hurt worse. I don't want anybody to
feel like I am on the side of anybody but
somebody hurting deeply, which is a victim. So it is
important for me to start this podcast out and say that,

(04:44):
going off of what Ben said, words are powerful, and
this week was a lesson for us that we have
to be careful, way more careful with our words. When
Ben said love makes you crazy, I knew he meant
heartbreak and get so dark for some people that it
drives a person to a point where their actions are dangerous,

(05:06):
fear inducing, and mental help is necessary. What love doesn't
do is excuse inexcusable behavior. That's something that we did
fail to say. Our intentions were never to excuse disgusting
behavior by saying such things as love makes you crazy.
And while others aren't able to read our heart and

(05:29):
our minds intention, that's the purpose of well chosen words,
and as a podcast host, well, Um, chosen chosen good
chosen words are kind of important, UM, and this has
been a reminder of that this week. Today we want
to learn how to discuss sensitive subjects better. We decided

(05:49):
to do this podcast that we can learn, alongside any
of you listening, how to better talk about things like this,
so that we can ensure that we're helping and not hurting.
The money that Ben and I make from today's episode
of The Almost This podcast will be donated to RAIN.
It's a nonprofit helping victims of sexual assault. And our
first guest today is Dr Hillary Golscher. She's a licensed

(06:12):
clinical psychologist with a private practice in Beverly Hills and
she specializes in the treatment of couples and relationships, depression, anxiety,
and trauma. Hey, Dr Gulscher, how are you doing good? Ashley?

(06:33):
Thanks for having me. How do you bend to thank
you for being here? So just our listeners are out there? Um,
can you give a little background about why you're here
right now? Like what makes you equipped to speak with us? Sure?
I'm a clinical psychologist. I practice in Beverly Hills and
one of my areas of specialty is around domestic violence

(06:56):
and it sounds like there's been a lot of really
important discussions and the whole range of feelings about the
topics you've discussed over the last podcasts, and I feel
like I'm in a really good position to sort of
address concerns confusion, upset and this super important topic. You know,

(07:18):
can we start there then? Um? We this podcast is
not We just talked about it, but it's just not
fun to talk about those like the subjects that are
are heavy and burden full and they're just sensitive. They're
sensitive topics. Um. There's obviously things that I said on
the podcast. Before I made the comment, I said love

(07:39):
makes you do crazy things. And I've already spoken to
the fact that I didn't mean it in any really
with anything. It was an irresponsible thing for me to
say because I had no weight behind it. It had
no intention behind it. It was just the thing I said. Uh.
And I now recognize based on a few people who
have been awesome to me, who um our victims or

(08:03):
they know somebody close to the victims, that said, hey,
this is why this was offensive. It was offensive because
it felt like you were justifying that love, uh gives
you the the excuse to do things that are harmful
or hurtful, and I recognized that now that was that
that's not that was not at all what I wanted.
But I would love if you could spend a few
moments and talk about, you know, when we do speak openly,

(08:27):
like how how we navigate these sensitive subjects so that
we aren't harmful in our speech, especially when we're just
we're you know, when they're just topics that come up
and we have to speak off of off the cuff. Yeah. Yeah,
it's such a complex question and the right one to ask.
I mean it we have, of course, want to address

(08:50):
these topics with a lot of sensitivity and with the
goal of listening, right, I mean, whenever we're talking about
something where people have been harmed emotionally or physically want
to be listening. We want to ask a lot of questions.
We want to understand what their experiences before we offer
our perspective or opinion. I think that's a really important
thing for all of us to try to strive towards. However,

(09:13):
we all in conversation with our friends and family and
loved ones, and conversations in podcasts or um in groups
of friends get animated um and involved the conversations and
and say things that we might not think through before him.
So to me, this is a beautiful teaching moment um

(09:34):
and and then and it might not be fun to
be at the center of it um for you, but
it's a beautiful teaching moment. We're all human, we all
say things at moments that we don't think about or
come to learn impact someone in a way that we
never intended. So this is a moment to sort of
really step back for you, for all of your listeners
that when you're talking about things like this like harassment,

(09:57):
domestic violence and that arena of pain that people go through,
that we want to be really, really careful about the
words that we choose. We want to ask a lot
of questions, we want to understand what people are going through,
and we want to bring a lot of sensitivity to
the topic. And part of it is that there's just
a lack of discussion and education around this issue. This

(10:18):
isn't something people talk about in a lot of different
circles often, and so part of my hope what we're
doing here today is increasing our ability to have these
kind of conversations, not just shy away from them, but
how do we have them productively and respectfully. So some
of our feedback from Monday's episode was people telling us

(10:40):
that we shouldn't be discussing matters like this, like this
is not the point of our podcast, And part of
me was like, oh, maybe, and then the other part
of me thought, well, don't we need to talk about
this in order to prevent it from happening to more people?
And I guess my question is, and it comes to

(11:00):
high profile UH cases like this, do we let them
be dealt with as privately as possible or do we
discuss it like we we are today. I think it's
a fine line. I think we have to be really
careful about delving into the details of anyone's issues around

(11:21):
domestic violence or harassment stalking. If we don't have all
the information at hand, whether it's a high profile case
or um something in our personal circles, I think we
have to be really careful about it because if we
don't have all the information, there's a lot of hypothesis
and speculation, and that can be hurtful or harmful to people. However,

(11:42):
I think we can have a really important macro discussion
about the issue of domestic violence and the issue of
stalking and harassment and even um what happens to people
on both sides of that equation, right, Like, what is
it like to be a victim of stalking and harassment
and domestic violence? What is it due to someone psychologically?
What does it take to speak out um publicly or

(12:05):
to seek legal assistant and assistance? And if you're on
the other end of it and have perpetrated um um
these type of wounds against someone, how does that come
to pass and how does someone like that begin to heal?
I think those are all really important discussions to have,
both on a micro and a macro level. So I
think I think it's possible for both to happen. It

(12:27):
can coexist, that you can talk about this issue, about
these two folks from this nation of people that you
talk about a lot, without um delving so deep into areas,
uh that that with which you aren't familiar. So I
think I think both can be accomplished. Well, let's start
there then, UM, Because obviously the last few days of

(12:49):
just and this is not about me at any level,
but they've been really hard to process because I know
how I feel and I and I also know that
how I actually feels and I know we do want
to help and not hurt, and that there's things we
say sometimes that definitely hurt, and I guess um as
we do. Then begin to speak up or let's move

(13:10):
it to this example. Then say we have a friend
who is on both sides of this situation. What can
we do as friends, UH to be helpful to them
in situations like this? And let's start with speaking to
the victim. If there is somebody that has been hurt
and pain, how do we as humans communicate with them

(13:31):
to allow them to feel safe into at least to
however they want to open up to us. Yes, such
an important question and I sort of alluded to it before,
but really important to repeat. Being a listener, asking a
lot of questions, slowing down your case and your energy,

(13:52):
and just deeply sinking into meeting the person where they're
at and hearing their story. Support and empathy and compassion
is key because most people who are in situations where
they are victims domestic violence or stalking harassment feel a
tremendous amount of anxiety and fear and helplessness and a
sense of feeling sort of out of control. And there's

(14:12):
a lot of feelings around talking about it publicly, um,
not just publiclylike in the format where you all are
dealing with, but just publicly to to friends and family.
It can feel um. One can feel shame, embarrassment, fear
of retaliation from the person whom they are accusing. And
there's so there's such a myriad of feelings that someone

(14:33):
in that position is going to experience. So sitting with
them and being able to absorb those feelings, listen and
ask questions and offer empathy and compassion is key. Is
a requirement, you know, for that person to be able
to sit with you and feel hurt and safe. And
I think if you only do one thing, it's that

(14:54):
And then the second is trying to figure out what
level of um of concern or danger that this person
is experiencing and our external resources required, And so that
mean reaching out to a therapist, Does that mean reaching
out to authorities, Does that mean reaching out to parents

(15:16):
or family, etcetera. Making sure that you're helping that person
mobilized resources. What do you do if you don't have
proof that there's something danger is going on, but you
have a sense that your friend in a relationship is
going through something very serious, how do you approach that

(15:36):
if they don't bring it up to you, do do
you at all approach it? Such a good question. My
opinion is that you do approach it, but you approach
it in a way that is open, that is flexible,
and that is without pressure, so that you're going to
someone and saying a version of my my intuition is
saying that something's happening here and I just want to

(15:57):
check in with you. Is there any way in which
you're feeling not safe physically, emotionally and if the person
is quickly defensive or I'm dismissive, and you still have
that suspicion, making sure that you create an open door,
that you create an open space. Okay, I hear you.
I just want to let you know I'm no matter what,
I'm here for you. I support the relationship, something happens,

(16:19):
I'm here for you. I'm always a resource for you
and making sure that you aren't um uh, pushing your
opinion or your agenda or your fears too close to
that person so that they shut down and don't see
you as as a safe haven to go to it
some other time. I mean, if you think someone is
in imminent danger, then you're gonna want to go to UM,

(16:40):
the authorities or something UM of course, But in the
scenario that you describe where you have an inkling and
aren't sure, in my opinion, the key is keeping the
door open so that that person can come to you
if something happens and they need help. I always struggle,
UM before we move into then something that I don't
think it's talked about a lot um. One thing you've

(17:01):
hinted at is talking about what we do if there
is somebody on the harassing or stalking end of things,
and how we deal with that. But before we get there,
one scenario I always struggle with is you know, when
when I know there's something traumatic or really difficult going
on in somebody's life that is a friend of mine
that I have communication with, often, I never know if

(17:23):
I should be the one reaching out. I never know
if And and maybe this could be the transition then
into talking about both sides because I don't know my
role in this, because I know how I feel, I
know what what I stand for, but yet there's still
humans at play here, and and those humans still matter

(17:43):
uh to to you as a friend or to what
you know? So do you reach out. Do you just
wait till they reach out? How do you deal with that?
You know, I work a lot with people, UM, who
are dealing with grief, who have lost Lauren's sisters, brothers, children, etcetera,
And this question comes up a lot. Should I reach
out to my friend who lost a daughter? UM, I'm

(18:06):
so anxious about the idea of having that conversation, of
triggering something with them, of reaching out that they haven't
reached out to me, etcetera. And almost always, when you
speak to the person dealing with the grief, they always
want welcome being reached out, to, being told that they're
being thought of, letting them know that there's someone there

(18:27):
for them should they need it, and are never additionally
traumatized by someone bringing up the topic, so to speak.
So all of this to say that through that in
particular and through my work as a clinician, the answer
is is sort of an unabashedly yes that I don't
think you can ever lose to to go to a

(18:47):
loved one or a friend and say I'm thinking of you,
I'm here. And if this isn't the right time for you,
if it isn't something you want to talk about, absolutely
respect that, but I want to let you know that
I'm here and I'm a resource for you of him
when you're ready. I think it's a really important thing,
and it can be a really uncomfortable thing, because to
move into the space of someone suffering, even via text

(19:09):
or via phone call or a drop live visit, is
is vulnerable. Is anxiety provoking is difficult. It makes us
feel awkward, It makes us feel difficult when we're reaching out.
But we have to kind of reach out outside of
ourselves and be in that uncomfortable space in the service
of letting someone know we're thinking of them. It's it's

(19:30):
sort of I mean, it's sort of like humanity. What
brings us together is that kind of connection and letting
people know that, like I'm thinking of you when things
are hard. You said a word there that uh you know,
it's a good I don't know if it's something I've
learned already in the last uh you know, a couple
of minutes of us talking, but the triggering and being
more careful of the language used to and because I

(19:54):
think personally I struggle with trying to fill the gap
in those conversations, like not letting silence sit it and
just trying to say something to fill the gap, to
try to make it feel better. And something that as
you're talking that's reminded me is sometimes I can't fill
that gap in when I do, there's actually something there
that I would say that is triggering and hurtful and harmful.

(20:15):
And allowing those silence, those moments of silence to be
there and then asking those questions to learn and to
not assume are just that's I don't know, that's something
I'm taking out of this. And as I sit here
here and you talk, I'm saying, yes, this is exactly
why we wanted to do this, so that hopefully I
can learn and leave this and people listening and actually
can leave this and become a better friend or a

(20:37):
better partner or whatever that looks like. Um. One thing
that's a difficult subject that that I don't even know
how to broach or even asking too, is what do
you do for somebody that is on the other side?
What is our role there as humans? And how do
we navigate that appropriately without causing more harm? Yeah, it's

(20:58):
it's a really difficult question and there's only imperfect answers.
I mean, it's so messy and difficult. If someone that
we love engages in behavior that is wrong. I mean,
it's really painful for everyone involved. So I think it's
just really important to acknowledge that upfront that no matter
what we do, it's going to be a little messy,
because that's a really really messy scenario someone we loved,

(21:20):
it's something that is wrong or hurt another person. You know,
there's not much we can do that's going to um
fully heal that fracture. Having said all that, I think
that it is important to acknowledge the person who has
engaged in the wrong behavior in some way to let
them know that you have heard their story, that you're

(21:42):
thinking of them and wishing them healing. You know, a
version of being able to stand in the sphere of
someone who is dealing with something difficult and trying to
heal and find um forgiveness within themselves and find better
ways and better copy mac isms, that you can stand
even symbolically to support that effort, even if you aren't

(22:05):
directly involved. So communicating in some way that I support
your effort as you move towards healing UM and I
want you to know that kind of thing could serve
to communicate I'm thinking of you. I'm here from you
for you, and I am um supporting the idea of
this being changed worthy behavior, you know, so trying to navigate,

(22:26):
UM what I think you're asking, which is, how do
I love on someone? How do I support someone and
also make it clear that I don't endorse or support
the behavior. So there's there's some version of being able
to do that in a respectful way. I mean, it
depends on the role of the person that you're talking about.
If it's a dearer friend of yours, you might have
a more candid conversation with that person. How did this happen?

(22:48):
Where did things go wrong? How can I support you
in figuring out a different way? You know? Right? If
it's someone that you know less well and are just
trying to sort of put out into the world that
you don't support the behavior and that you do support healing,
and there's probably a way to do that without triggering
um too many people in your own spere and in

(23:10):
that person's here. I UM find myself frustratingly inarticulate, especially
in tough, sticky situation like the heart of the situation,
to talk about the the less words come to me right,
and things just may come out that I that don't

(23:34):
do the job that I intended them to do. Like
we were talking about earlier, I guess, what are some
trigger words or phrases that I wouldn't think were offensive
to a victim? But are Can you think of anyone? Mhm?
I think the notion of over questioning the victim about, UM,

(24:01):
their narrative. I thought you guys, I thought you guys
were in a really good place. I've never seen that
kind of energy between you two, you know, any anything
that might demonstrate, UM, a dismissiveness or a denial or
a disbelief of the victim's story. UM, we really want

(24:22):
to be careful to avoid. I think that that's that's
a primary thing that comes to mind. UM. I think
platitudes can be difficult for people to take into. Oh
that's really hard, you know kind of thing, UM, really
asking questions and sitting back and listening I think is critical.

(24:45):
What what's that? What's this been like for you? How
was it been? It's hard for me to imagine. I
would love to sit with you as you talk about it,
you know kind of thing. You know, Ben mentioned something
really important which I want to rehighlight around being able
to tell lerate that silence and that I guess awkwardness.
This is a messy, awkward situation, the one that we're

(25:06):
talking about, specifically, in any situation, whether there's domestic violence
or harassment or stalking, and so, but being able to
tolerate the messiness of it as as someone on the outside,
as someone who's not the victim. You know, that's that's
a job we should probably try to take on. You know,
since we're not the victim, we're not the perpetrator, we're
a support member. And so being able to sit in
the silence, being able to sit in the awkwardness, being

(25:28):
able to say I'm not even sure what to say
right now, but I'm I'm just gonna sit here with you.
I think are really important skills to cultivate in moments
like this. We don't have to fix it. As a
support number. We we cannot fix it. We cannot. That
isn't our job. The best that we can do is
to let people know we love you, We're here, I'm
sitting with you in this. I thank you for all

(25:53):
of this. By the way, this is really helpful for me, um,
and I hope it is for the listener, especially coming
off of, you know, something that was contentious and misunderstood
and really fired people up. I I was told I
was talking to Buddy yesterday and was just like just
in the worst possible place mentally, and he he just

(26:17):
reminded me, he said, hey, like this is really hard. Uh,
you know your intentions. Um, it sometimes takes really difficult
situations to bring about something positive. And I think what
I'm feeling is like the firing up and the anger
it was was healthy at some level, because what it
is is it forces us to sit down and say, Okay,

(26:39):
let's regroup and let's talk about how we actually communicate
to others who have really difficult situations, and maybe we
can all take something away from the message that you're
sharing and go, I just want to be a better friend,
a better partner, a better son, a better sister, whatever
that is. Uh. And I hope that's happening. Um, it's
happening for me. Uh. If we could spend a few moments,

(27:00):
something that was intrigued to me is you know, it's
no secret we're in a very divisive time in the
United States, especially. Uh. It feels like, especially during quarantine
I hear more and more often that people just feel
like they can't communicate with each other, and that there's
these silos that we run into and everybody's yelling at
each other, you know, through the silo, and nobody actually
wants to enter in to understand where the other person

(27:22):
is coming from. With that being the stage, it's set
right now, and for a lot of us feeling it.
I don't want to assume everybody, but a lot of
us is feeling it. How do we navigate then moving
from difficult situations that can that surround trauma to then
just moving about our everyday lives talking about things that
are triggering Mm. So you're saying, how do how do

(27:44):
how do those things coexist both the truth that trauma
has occurred is occurring, and how do we also go
about our sort of regular day. Yeah, and and then
moving then into like how do we start talking about
difficult subjects that maybe don't aren't back by trauma, but
they're back by our passions and our feelings, if that
be spiritually, politically, emotionally. So what you're saying, Yeah, I

(28:07):
think it's it's a it's a really timely question for um.
The environment in which we find ourselves and a lot
of important discussions need to happen right now in our society.
So it's really good to be thinking about how do
I do this in a way that's most digestible. I
think that's what you're talking about. So being able to
narrate that upfront, I think it's really really important. Um,

(28:30):
you know, in the context of a podcast that you host,
or when you're talking with friends or family, being able
to say I have a lot on my mind right
now and I want to I want to share it,
I want to talk about it. I want to elicit
feedback and have discourse. But it's it's difficult material, it's
it's triggering. Um, it's about the BLM movement, it's about

(28:50):
domestic violence, it's about our our upcoming election. Are you
available to have that kind of discussion. I'd like to
do it if you're up for it kind of thing.
I mean, this is and something you could ask on
a podcast, but if you're with friends or family, and
if you're about to do something like that on a podcast,
sort of letting the audience know that we're gonna we're
gonna go into some territory that might be triggering. There's

(29:11):
that word again. That might be complex, that might be messy,
but it's important as people, especially given the times that
we're in, to go there so we can all learn,
so we can educate, so we can transform. And so
I think when people feel like they have UM a
narrative to present what your intentions are and to let
them know what's coming that they are, they feel more

(29:32):
open to it and feel more contained before you enter
into the part where you're talking about really difficult material
and triggering stuff. So I think that's a way that
we can be careful UM with our words and with
our sentiments, but not shut down and avoid them. Because
we don't want to do that either. Why not why

(29:55):
I mean why in these moments, in holistically what we've
just talked about through this up until this point on
this podcast, why don't we want to just ignore them
and shut down. If we ignore them and shut down,
we never learned, We never grow, we never transform, we
never change. As I was looking at some of the
discourse that was happening on your UM Instagram page, one

(30:18):
of the reasons I wanted to come join you today
is that I didn't want the conversation to get foreclosed because,
for example, domestic violence is a really important topic and
a lot of people have UM shame, embarrassment, and myriad
of experiences that they can't imagine sharing because it feels
so triggering and um they fear that there's judgment and repercussions.

(30:40):
And I don't want that for people that are victims.
I want there to be a discussion that can feel
supportive and open and has an opportunity to educate people
who don't know you know, who don't know about it,
who don't know how to talk about it. And that
goes for all sensitive topics. If we shut down and
don't don't talk about it, we never grow and transform
and change change. And we see that with the Black

(31:01):
Lives movement now right is that finally as a society
we're starting to talk about it and things are beginning
slowly to change. Do you think that there's anything that
we should talk about now that we have an addressed
yet that will help educate people on this. I think
talking about what happened yesterday or whenever you guys did

(31:24):
that the podcast is probably the most key thing that
you can do in terms of educating people. How having
um um casual discussions about sensitive, difficult, painful topics can
impact people, right, And I think I think that's the

(31:44):
thread of your message, is part of the recognition that,
like may, we want to be able to talk about this,
and we want to do it in the best way possible,
and so being able to stand up and go, wow,
we we might not have done that in the best
way possible. Um, And and we're okay standing up and
saying that because we wanted the examples of how to
again grow, transform and do it differently. And so to me,

(32:06):
I hope that's the biggest takeaway for folks listening is that, right,
we all might make mistakes when we talk about things
that are messy because it's hard, and um, we get confused,
we we we lose the through line. Um, we're overly
casual in a moment um and we can step back
and learn and impact people in a more positive way.

(32:28):
We never want to lose a moment like that. We discussed, Um,
we discussed cancel culture a couple you know, during the
same podcast, and I think that what I don't like
about cancel culture so much is that it's just not
forgiving and it doesn't allow people to learn from their mistakes,

(32:50):
And UM, I guess, how do you feel that counterculture
is affecting these kinds of kinds of conversation, because now
I feel like there's even more fear or round having
conversations like this. I talk a lot about cancel culture
in my work, and I always say there's there's probably
a time and a place for cancel culture, like a
Harvey Weinstein or something right where there's been there's been

(33:14):
such sort of documented a borrent behavior that disaffiliating from
someone like that makes a lot of sense. So in
some ways that it can apply, and it's it's a
way that society can hold someone accountable who has wronged
so many people on that level. Having said that, in

(33:37):
a situation like you guys are dealing with, when someone
does or says something that feels hurtful or triggering to people,
if we totally foreclose conversation, we absolutely lose moments for
people to grow and change and educate themselves and to
educate um others that are participating or listening. And so

(33:57):
I think it it really can do harm in that sense.
And if we have willing spirits like you two are,
who want to learn, who want to listen who want
to hear and grow and think about this and talk
about that. We don't want to miss that. In my opinion,
we don't want to miss that at all. We want
to highlight it. And we have two people are willing
to be vulnerable and say, like, I don't know if
that went as well as it could have. I want

(34:18):
to do that better. Let's hold that up. Like I said,
if we have willing spirits and show people what it
looks like to go, I might out of like how
that went. I want to do it differently. I want
to talk about it, want to be vulnerable. And I
think if we were able to do that in um
small and large scales over and over and over again,
we'd be more connected as a society. So I think

(34:40):
every little moment like this matters, where we have someone
who is willing to say I want to be vulnerable,
I want to learn. So I dislike cancel culture when
it's applied in this kind of situation because we miss
all of that, and that's where a lot of the
beauty and learning comes. We're you know, because this is
what how been on our podcast as an example, and UM,

(35:03):
we're trying to use it to create a bigger discussion
that we all are learning from, um, including the listener
out there. And so if we're looking at all of
us here going okay, this happened, This is a good
example that we can all that we've pretty much all
heard and we understand, Um, where is the through line?
Then you've talked about the through line, like where does cancel?
Like how do we even look at this? And people

(35:23):
are really enraged and they're angry and they're triggered, and
they feel like there there's there's stuff on our podcast.
It's justifying stuff that they are very much against, and
it's like, no, it's not at all, it's not at
all what was meant? So, like what stops that person
from going through the through line saying I'm just done
or saying I'm going to stick it out for a bit,
Like how do you help, like in a healthy with

(35:44):
healthy boundaries understand that for yourself? Mhm. Hopefully this kind
of discourse kind of traits the the upset and sense
of enragement that people are experiencing right now, you know,
this kind of discourse and keep will get in touch
with their own humanity, you know, and their own um,

(36:04):
their own ability to to make mistakes and UM their
own flaws, you know, and that these kind of discussions
make someone go like, right, we all make mistakes, we
all show up in ways that we aren't proud of
in moments, and if we shut each other down after
those things occur, we never get to stay connected, we

(36:26):
never get to learn, we never get to stay whole, really,
and so we hope that it just penetrates people's sense
of humanity, you know. That's really the through line to me.
And look, I I support the idea of people advocating
for victims of domestic violence. It's a good idea to
make sure that victims of domestic violence don't feel shamed

(36:49):
or don't feel exploited. That's that's a good idea, and
I would stand alongside someone who is advocating for that.
And so I think your listeners that that were were
sending that message along can feel UM supported, were justified.
I think the nuance we're trying to demonstrate here is
that you guys stand with that idea too, that idea too,

(37:12):
that the kind of dialogue that you had UM might
not have fully demonstrated that, and for that you are
sorry and want to do better. UM, but that everyone
can stand together and in the the idea that we
want victims to heal and to feel supported, and we
want perpetrators to be health responsible. And so I think

(37:35):
that people are able to take kind of a deep
breath and allow those truths to sink in that those
were the messages that you guys stood behind UM to
begin with. As well. We don't have to be so divisive,
because this is why often divisiveness happens, is that people
aren't willing to fully listen, you know. So I guess
the through line is humanity and listening. And and some

(37:56):
people listening UM might find that and some people UM
might not. And and that's okay, because this is messy,
This is emotional and messy, and I think we have
to be okay with with all of this being imperfect
because it's a hard situation and and a lot of
people's UM emotional reaction reactions are super justified in the

(38:16):
sense that they're genuine, you know, feelings, and they're to
do the right thing. I'm just like you guys are.
So we may also have to just be okay with
with everyone living with a degree of upset around this
because this is a hard topic. Dr Goldcher, I really
appreciate you, UM, thank you for for doing this with us. UM.

(38:37):
It's been really good for me. I I hope it's
good for you know a few people out there listening. UM,
thanks for sharing your wisdom and your insight, and thank
you for willing, you know, kind of being willing to
sit with us through something that's difficult and then also
educating all of us on how we can be better. Uh.
Dr Goldcher, Uh, before you leave, if anybody's out there listening,

(38:59):
who is in the midst of deep trauma, Uh, they
haven't found an outlet to speak about it. What advice
would you give to anybody for ways to get help,
resources to get help, et cetera. Yeah, Well, it's so
important to just begin talking to someone. And if that's
just a trusted other, a friend or a partner or

(39:20):
a family member, it's critical to start getting your story out.
And if you're finding that you have invasive symptoms, whether
that's depression and anxiety, women in thoughts, etcetera, that you
reach out to a professional and UM you can google
in your local areas looking you're a psychologist that specialize
in domestic violence and UM during quarantine COVID. Lots of

(39:43):
folks are offering virtual sessions and so there's resources available immediately.
So I would just encourage to start talking first with
trusted others and then with a professional additional help is needed.
Thank you so much for being here. It means a
lot of cranky. I'm glad I could be that our

(40:11):
next guest is somebody who has become a friend of mine. Um,
I've gotten to know through a couple of different instances.
Alice was a huge supporter of The Bachelive on stage, Alise,
welcome to the Almost Famous podcast. Thank you and thanks
for having me. Thank you. I want to give a
little bit of a background while you're here. UM, from

(40:32):
my perspective, so we've already broached on the things that
I said that came off poorly and that triggered some
and that angered many, and UH, through all of this,
you were actually the first time I even knew this,
Like when you texted me, it was the first time

(40:52):
I even knew something was happening. I was with my
parents and UM, I got your text, and your text
just laid out to me that hey, you had listened
to the podcast, that there was some things said that
you felt, uh, we're not right and you wanted to
get clarity on them. Uh. You know that's been what

(41:12):
two days now, um, since you texted me, and you've
been a consistent voice to me through that. You um
did not only uh bring it to light in my
life and to tell me how I misspoke and what
I said that was triggering, but you then also and
have encouraged me and help guide me through this and

(41:33):
it will. It's weird how life happens and how there's
unexpected people that kind of step in at moments that
you don't expect it and when you need it, and
and speak truth into you. That isn't just you know,
saying things that are nice to help you feel better,
but you actually like speaking constructive criticism into you so
that you can be better. And you've done that for me.

(41:54):
So it was only right that we brought you on
because you do come from a place uh that can
speak to this, and you've spoken to me, and so
I just want to open up the floor to you
to talk about why you're here and why this mattered
to you so much. Yeah, it was a friend that
sent me your end. Thanks for all those kind words,

(42:14):
but um, it was a friend that sent me the clip,
and I'll be honest, I I didn't listen to the
whole episode, but I listened to what we're talking about today,
and immediately I knew why she had sent me the clip.
And I know you guys have talked about this earlier
in this podcast, but UM, I felt that when you
are quote unquote a public figure, right, people on social

(42:37):
media are quick to um jump and want to make
commentary and speculate on people's intentions behind their words. And
I think from our brief interactions together, I had a
very good sense of that you don't do things with
intention to hurt people. And I wanted to go into
the conversation with you initially privately, UM, knowing what I

(42:58):
know of you, and that your attentions in having that
conversation and wanting to show support for casts but also
um empathy for other humans that are involved got massively. Ah,
you missed the mark, and I told you that in
our conversation. And I think for me, this is not

(43:21):
something that I ever thought I would talk about publicly
because it is so personal and there's very mixed messages.
But I felt like by me reaching out to you
and sharing a little bit of my back story and
being a victim of domestic partner abuse, UM, and having
to go through some of these really difficult choices that

(43:43):
um that you guys were talking about having a perspective
from the other end. UM, maybe I could said, shed
some light, but from a place of hopefully love and
compassion and not just anger over what was said. Well,
you've done that, UM, And I mean I I can't

(44:04):
tell you how much I do appreciate it, UM, because
I do. I think it's it's probably helpful. And we
haven't dove into this yet, but you know the words
that I said, UM, that love makes you do crazy things?
What about that? And triggered you? What about that? Frustrated you? Um?

(44:26):
I think there's two parts of it one it really UM.
Unfortunately have this narrative through even just movies, But just
are our idea of what love should look like based
on the representations we have around us, and sometimes those
representations really aren't a healthy display of love. We've all
gone through heartbreak and navigated it poorly. Right, You've sent

(44:49):
you have one too many cocktails and sent a text
that you regret like we can all agree that it's
not that was not an act of love when you
sent that texts. That's acting out of ego and her.
But there's a massive distinction between a regrettable text or
a comment set in an argument and intentionally and purposefully

(45:11):
causing someone physical, emotional, or psychological harm. There those two
can't go hand in hand because love and then I
know you talk a lot about your faith, and if
we go back to like the good old Corinthians passage
that we all talk about of what is love? But
I was, I was looking at that last night, there
is never a time in there that it excuses behavior

(45:33):
that is not beneficial to others. Because at the root
of it, we have to stop talking about and and
in a way or at least verbally making it sound
like we're excusing poor behavior as passion, as intimacy, and
nobody understands our relationship but us. These are all a

(45:53):
narrative that abusers use to justify their actions, so that
when we use the same narratives that the victim has
heard over and over, you think they must be right.
He is right, he just loves me. We're passionate, we
fight hard, we love harder. That's not love. Yeah, And

(46:13):
so um, that part of it affected me. But also
I want I want to make it clear too that
I can understand wanting to have empathy for just a
human person, whoever that is, and that it doesn't coincide
with making excuses for inexcusable behavior. But you would hope,

(46:36):
especially for me, and I'm happy to share some of
the backstory that that there is some sort of intervention
with mental health or whatever the case may be, that
they break those cycles of abuse. Because the person that
did to me did to someone earlier and maybe if
they've had that help, um, that wouldn't have happened to me,
And unfortunately it happened to the girl after me. And

(46:59):
so I want to encourage that people that are really
struggling with whether they had prior abuse in their lives
and it's manifesting and now their romantic relationship, that they
should and absolutely should get help. But when we say
things that make the narrative of the abuser something that

(47:19):
is so commonplace for the victim, it really makes you
second guess, um, your own intuition of what is right
or wrong in a relationship. I think that's one of
the biggest things I've learned. And you highlight it to
me was that that those words I used, that we're irresponsible,

(47:43):
they give an excuse for why things are happening, and
not only did it justify it, but it excused it,
and it did make it commonplace. And for me, that's
a takeaway from this that honestly I didn't understand until you.
I like it to me, but now as you explain
it and have explained it to me, it is definitely hurtful.

(48:09):
When I said that it's hurtful, I can see where
somebody would listen to that who is in the midst
or who has been a victim, and go, Ben is
excusing actions that have devastated me and hurt my life. Yeah,
and you know, and that's why I wanted to talk

(48:30):
to you initially about privately, because I know your heart,
I think, and I know that that was not the
intention behind your words, but I think opening up if
anything positive is to come from what has I'm sure
for you've been a really really dark time. Um of
hearing these comments and accusations about your intention. Bond behind

(48:51):
those words is that it's opening up a dialogue for
someone to give not you, not only you, information, but
other people that the we have to change the narrative
around what domestic abuse even looks like. Because I'm going
to be honest, the if you look into like statistics,
and I shared some of these with Ben, and I'm

(49:12):
sure earlier you guys mentioned this when you were talking
about a therapist, But um, I feel like we put
things on this spectrum of and I've even seen this
in comments about recent events. If they're not hit, if
they're not sexually abused, it almost goes on this spectrum
of how bad is it really? And when you start

(49:33):
going through statistics, and I did after our conversation Ben,
and I'm sitting there checking off going down of things
of how it impacts people's lives to be harassed, to
be stocked. It is psychological warfare. And that is the
best way I can put it. And I'm not discrediting
the severity of what other people go through as far

(49:56):
as actual physical abuse or otherwise, but all levels of
abuse have long term effects on the person that was victimized.
And and so yes, words and and things that make
it seem okay if just taken from faith value of
what those words are really discredit the actual work that

(50:19):
myself and others have to do to just feel like
themselves again. And I can't speak for everyone obviously, but um,
it wasn't so much that through my experience I lost
trust in other people or even romantic relationships, but I
lost trust in myself of what I was allowing in
my life the wise, all these things that go through

(50:41):
your head when constantly you are just scared at every turn,
and to not trust yourself is something that takes years
to overcome. And so I don't want to minimalize abuse
as category A is bad, category B is worse, and
and C is the absolute worst, because all off it
has just unbelievable long term effects on the person that

(51:04):
went through it. It might be helpful here how do
you define abuse? This is certainly not going to be
a therapist way of defining it, But for myself, it

(51:25):
where I could draw the line was would I accept
this if my best friend was telling me this was
happening to her. M hmm At some point, Yeah, people
are going to go through you know, we all make
mistakes and relationships, We all do and say things that
are regrettable. But when you are in a position where
you're losing work, you're forced to move, you are isolated,

(51:50):
and I really want to hone in on that isolation thing,
because that is usually how this starts. No matter what
type of abuse, it is the easiest way to control
and manipulate someone is to isolate them as much as
possible from friends and family that care about them that
would point out that this is not okay. So if
I was seeing this in a friend and her relationship

(52:10):
or his relationship, at what point would I step in
and say something? And if I would do that for them,
why aren't I doing it for myself? So I define
abuse as behavior that I wouldn't tolerate for the people
that I love the most, because a lot of times
we were very quick to jump to action for people
we love and not as quick to jump to protect
ourselves else when you're going through this, was there a

(52:34):
friend of yours that really excelled in taking care of you?
And can you explain how they were able to communicate
with you in such an effective way? I am very,
very lucky that I have an incredible family and my
dad is Can I say he's a no bullshitter? He

(52:55):
tells things like it is, But when um, we're living
states apart, it's not always easy to see what's going on.
And at the time I was not really close to
many people, and like I said, isolation becomes a huge
part of it. I remember the people that introduced me
to this guy. I wasn't even allowed to be in
their wedding because he had a problem with it. I mean,

(53:16):
this is the extent that people go to make sure
that you're in a bubble all to yourself or two
the abuse yourself. Really, UM did I have friends that
supported me, absolutely, But during it, I'll be honest, I
was hiding a lot of what was going on out
of fear of criticism, out of shame that wasn't mine

(53:39):
to hold. But that is something I think a lot
of people experience. UM it's embarrassing. You don't want to
admit to how bad things really got. We all want
to have the happily ever after and when it goes
on a path that is so opposite of that. UM,
it's really hard to open up to people. But after
I came forward, and I'll be honest, I was forced

(54:01):
to come forward. It was not a decision I made
on my own. UM. The state press charges and after
a particularly bad incident and then we things escalated from there,
but after I came forward the amount of support I had,
whether it was from family even from a long distance,
or friends just having a yeah, an unbiased of course

(54:27):
they support you. But if you have a friend going
through this, don't go into like the rhetoric of like
your favorite self help guru, because it's a lot deeper
than you know. Think positive and you'll get through this. UM,
you have to understand that by the time someone opens up,
they've more than likely been holding onto this pain and

(54:48):
the shame that goes along with that for longer than
you have ever recognized. Because you become so good at
being a chameleon too, keeping that person happy so that
the abuse doesn't contin in you, but also to not
show anyone else was going on out of fear of
retaliation if you do UH. At least, I want to

(55:10):
give you the ability to share your story as much
as you're comfortable with. UM. But just before we do,
you did share some statistics with me. I don't know
if they're in front of you right now. UM, I
have a couple of them, I know I sent a
few a few in in our conversation, but yeah, do
you mind sharing those? And then whatever amount of your

(55:32):
story you're comfortable sharing. UH, if you'd like to do that,
I think it would be appreciated. UM. And I can
certainly give you the link to where I found these,
but it was from a two thousand and eleven studies,
So I can't even imagine how this is escalated with
technology advancing. UM. But one in seven people and this

(55:52):
is this is only about UM domestic abuse that was
not escalated to violent an axe or homicide. One in
seven lost work, one and eight were forced or forcibly
moved out out of fear of harassment. Victims report their

(56:15):
personality was changed as a result. And the one that
really struck me because it's not a fun thing to
talk about, but UM that within the first year after
legality and all of this has settled, one in four
people that have been harassed and or stock will contemplate suicide.

(56:37):
When you go into the statistics of UM what it
looks like for issues of harassment and stocking to escalate. UM,
I think the numbers would floor you. But these are
just things that because thankfully that that wasn't my situation.
I was checking off the list and UM, I don't

(56:59):
have this one written down, but if I remember correctly. UM.
One in one in three people that have been harassed
and or stocked UM will will suffer from some sort
of post traumatic stress going forward, which takes a lot
of therapy and a lot of care to navigate and

(57:21):
and get back to the healthiest version of you possible.
These these things don't end with a restraining order. Yeah.
So that's a UM, that's tough. There's not a response
to that. I don't know what to say other than

(57:43):
thank you, thank you for sharing those, thanks for doing
the research, and thanks for sharing those with me. UM.
They do give a picture, a better idea of just
how tough it is. And like you said, one thing
that sticks with me in this and it happens all
the time. But it's like we see a conclusion right
with the restraining order. Yeah, Yet the it doesn't stop

(58:06):
there for the human that's experienced like it's not like that,
It's not like that brings healing. UM. So I want
to talk about healing with you. But before we do,
let's talk. Let's let's talk as much as you want
about your story, and then I would love to lean
that into anybody that's experiencing this as well to how
you've gone about trying to heal and what has you

(58:26):
found helpful in that? Absolutely? Um this happened. Jeez. I'm
thirty three and we'll live in all of y'all, but
I'm right behind you. Um I. This was a number
of years ago, but I remember plane as day. It
is one of the most vivid memories. I was having

(58:47):
a New Year's Eve party and a guy walked in
and it immediately was like, who is that? And it
was very clear to see that he could be what
you would probably stereotype as like the bad boy if
this was just just horribly written romantic comedy. And I

(59:08):
remember talking that night and there was just an energy
about him that I think now I would recognize as
run away. But at the time it was so captivating
because I'm someone that loves to figure people out and
the why behind who they are, and I could not
read his energy and that captivated me. Um. I remember

(59:31):
our first date was one that in hindsight, and this
is gonna sound so silly, like you almost want to say, like, Hi,
where how many red flags do you need before you know,
before you get the hint. But the red flags went
off immediately that this was going to be something pitole

(59:54):
in my life. Unfortunately, I mistook that coming from a place. Um.
I know you guys obviously watched the show, so you
know that I talked a little bit about my sister's passing.
This was all concurrent to when she was finding out
she was pregnant and sick, so I was already in
a very fragile position, and I think by opening up

(01:00:19):
that side of what was going on in my life,
it almost made it so much easier for him to
step in and me to excuse some of the behaviors
that I saw. Um our relationship could be summed up
very quickly and that it was all a lie. Things
were fabricated from the beginning. But it was so intense.

(01:00:40):
We would fight, we would I hate to sit but
have the best sex ever and make up and it
was just this roller coaster of emotions and it was
so addicting at the time to have these I don't
want to say I was addicted to drama, but I think,
if I'm being honest, I was heightened emotion um because

(01:01:01):
it felt like something new that I had never experienced.
And like I said, we see it in movies and stuff.
That's like I'll do anything for you, but when it
feels like that from the first date, that's probably not
a healthy sign um. And it was not until and
I'm so grateful for this moment of clarity where I

(01:01:22):
ended the relationship. It moved quickly. We got engaged four
months later from the day we met. Four months later,
I had a ring on my finger, and when my
sister was diagnosed, I remember we were all waiting by
the phone, and she obviously had her husband, and my
dad was consoling my mom, and I was waiting there alone,

(01:01:46):
and I thought, if something ever happens to me, I
would never have his support. It would always be about
him in some way. I remember he went out that
night because he couldn't handle the emotional It's just too
emotional for him to be there. And I made excuse

(01:02:06):
after excuse, And then that moment really triggered my desire
to end the relationship because I knew, at the core
of a healthy relationship it should be a little bit boring.
You know without question that that person is there for you.
You don't have to question these things that I was
questioning every single day. And it was not until after

(01:02:27):
I ended the relationship that um things that maybe felt
like they were crossing the line escalated almost overnight. And
I want to be careful with my words because why
I'm sharing my story. I don't want it to scare
someone out of like coming forward or or walking away
from an abusive situation, because you have the right to

(01:02:49):
do that, and you should do that. UM. But in
my particular instance, when he lost control of me, he
completely lost control over that phil that he had tried
so hard to keep up, and it escalated in ways
that now I feel so disconnected to that it almost

(01:03:10):
doesn't seem real. Um. There was burner phones, there was
pictures of me at different places. UM. I lost my
job because my coworkers started to feel unsafe because he
was um taking pictures of me while I was at work,
sending them to me, but not from him. Right, it's
from these crazy numbers that I didn't know. UM. One

(01:03:34):
night in particular where the state got involved, he came
into my home and out of fear, I thought, take
anything you want, but I'm getting the hell out. So
you go in and I'm getting out. UM. And he
did take items of mine, including and this isn't a
fun thing to admit, but a laptop that he had
purchased for me as a gift that had a picture

(01:03:56):
that I mean, by Instagram standards, probably wasn't that embarrassing,
but when it's sent to my father posted as his
Facebook photo profile photo, UM that was supposed to be
something so intimate between us, UM and used in a
way to absolutely shame and embarrass me. And UM had

(01:04:18):
a lot of things taken and used as leverage. If
you talk to me, if you see me, you can
have these back. UM. That is where UH legal got involved.
And there's times where I'll be honest, there was physical
things that happened that that should never have happened. But
I'm very thankful it never got to a place of

(01:04:39):
UM where I needed treatment of any sort for any
like physical injury. But UM, it it's hard to just
sum up how crazy it was. But I remember Thanksgiving night,
my my aunt calling me and saying, I'm so sorry,
but we don't feel safe, you know, when they little

(01:04:59):
kids around. We don't feel safe of having you come
to Thanksgiving because we don't know if he's tracking you,
if he comes here, what's going to happen. And they
had to call the police that night because he showed
up UM and was lighting. I don't know what you
call them, but if you get in a car accent,
they're like flare things in your car to like help
with traffic, UM and throwing those at their windows on

(01:05:22):
Thanksgiving night, assuming that I was there. These aren't in
any way loving actions to make me lose a career.
I had to then move out of the home I
was living in because my roommates no longer felt safe
and rightfully so UM. I just want to say, like,
there's nothing loving about these type of actions, but it

(01:05:47):
is very almost easy when you're in this situation to
make excuses because your emotions are still involved. I still
cared about him. I still also carried a lot of
um el like, oh, you know, when you're in that
deep you go, God, maybe I did do something wrong
and deserved this. That was the thing in my head
all the time. Maybe I deserved this. Um. Unfortunately, UM,

(01:06:13):
as you went to the legal process, I found out
that this was not the first time he had done this. UM.
I don't know exactly the extent. I could only read
the court finalines of what he had done to someone
in the past. UM, and that is what prompted me
to continue because I will tell you I did not
want to show up that day in court to testify
against him. It was terrifying. I don't want to put

(01:06:35):
down the legal system, but I didn't feel I enough
measures were taken to make sure that even my arrival
there was safe. UM, and I hope that that has
changed in the years since. UM. It was the scariest
by far day of my life sitting in court. UM.
But I knew that if I wasn't going to take

(01:06:57):
responsibility for what was happening to me, that there's all so,
in my opinion, responsibility to what could potentially happen to
the next person. Because it was very clear that his
patterns were escalating. And now I'll take a big deep
break because it was a lot. Well, I'm just I'm
so I'm so thankful that you felt comfortable sharing that, UM,

(01:07:18):
and I'm just incredibly sorry for everything that you went through. UM.
If there was some you talked about their being red
flags very early on, would you feel comfortable sharing what
some of those are just so that other girls listening
can look out for them in their own relationships or
in their friends relationships. And I kind of want to

(01:07:39):
respond to that that I want to make sure that
this isn't it's not just females that go through this,
it's it's both um and unfortunately, I think there's even
more critique when a criticism when a man comes forward
and says something because of the unfortunate stereotypes we have
about masculinity. No, thank you for calling me out on that,

(01:07:59):
But I I think for me, some of the major
red flags that I can look back in hindsight is
one the constant roller coaster. And it felt like we
started on a little kittie roller coaster to one that
you know is doing loop to loops and you're hanging
upside down. And I know that seems like kind of

(01:08:20):
a funny analogy, but it just kept escalating, and the
things that I would have to excuse is, oh, this
was just an argument kept becoming harder to excuse. UM intense,
intense jealousy that isn't coming from a place of that
where it's warranted. I think a little jealousy sometimes can

(01:08:40):
even be healthy and a little fun in a relationship.
If I'm dating someone and the girls looking at him,
good for me, I feel you. I'm like, okay, you
think he's cut good exactly. There's a massive difference between
that and having, UM, just a pleasant conversation trying to
be kind to a member of the deposite sex, and

(01:09:02):
immediately seeing a switch where any loving affection has gone
out the window and now you are going to be
publicly ridiculed and shamed. Because control is just the major
factor when it comes to harassment, stalking, and abuse, and
if there's any semblance that they are losing control, things

(01:09:22):
escalate very quickly. And jealousy for me, is a major
red flag in a relationship like actually and I talked about,
there's a difference between healthy amounts of just normal human
jealousy and jealousy that becomes vindictive, becomes a reason in

(01:09:42):
their eyes to publicly shame you for things that you
you truly didn't do. Um. I pride myself on being very,
very loyal, so cheating has never been an issue for me.
Yet to be standing at a dinner party and I
think I made reference. I mean, this is how really
it was. Um. There was a guy that was from
Russia there, and I said, oh, I'm from a town

(01:10:05):
in Alaska and we have a pretty large Russian population,
and my my town that I'm from mean soldier and Russian.
That is not a flirtatious comment. In fact, it's a
pretty awkward, weird dinner party conversation where you're just trying
to get to know someone. But that briefest of interaction
where the attention wasn't on him, became a reason for

(01:10:28):
him to call me a whore, to call me a
slut in front of people that I cared about and
work colleagues, and to create a scene where I was
in the wrong and people would because of how he
portrayed it, would go, oh, I'm so sorry she did
that to you. Gosh, you're right, that's terrible, And when

(01:10:48):
you hear other people saying that, you go, man, maybe
I really did something wrong. I don't think a Russian
to English translation is, you know, going to be on
top of someone's tinder foul is a way to make
a move. But when you're in those scenarios, it's um
it's the littlest things that can set them off. One

(01:11:10):
huge one was he would get angry at me for
I was his like escape. He could take everything out
on me that had absolutely nothing to do with me.
If he got a flat tire, I'd be left on
a very busy city interstate because somehow it was my
fault that he got a flat tire with driving his car.

(01:11:32):
These those are completely irrational thoughts. No one can cause
you to get a flat tire, it's the nail on
the road that causes it. But when you are constantly
put in a position where you are the source of
their problems. UM, I hope people stop believing it a
lot quicker than I did. But you believe somehow, gosh,

(01:11:55):
I did do this, And I think now people call
that geah slighting of where you question your own thought
process or even just the reality of the situation around
you because someone has absolutely convinced you and you've lost
so much trust in yourself and your own ability to
make healthy decisions that they must be correct and you

(01:12:19):
must be absolutely that ship crazy and everyone else knows
that you're that ship crazy, so they're right. And it
just continued to escalate from from there. So then moving
into the healing process, how, what steps or what does

(01:12:43):
somebody do coming off of this, still living within it,
to heal, to recover, to start knowing truth about themselves again?
I think, do everything I didn't do. Um, this is
not something I dealt with for quite some time. Like
I mentioned earlier, I had a lot of new traumas

(01:13:07):
going on with family matters that compounded at the time
that quite frankly, that's where my emotional um space went to,
and rightfully so. But there's so many resources that I
wish I knew about then that I know about now.
UM One that I spoke to Ben about and that
I would speak to anybody about is the hotline dot org.

(01:13:29):
They have just that website alone, whether you call the
number or just look at the website, the amount of
information and measures that they go to protect the safety
of even someone typing in hotline dot org. The first
thing it pops up is, if you feel like your
phone could potentially be UM monitored, here's how to get

(01:13:50):
to this website on your browsers safely so no one
can look it up. I had never seen things like
that um but also providing not only legal support no
matter where they are, but therapy and advice and how
and creating a safety plan for how to get out
of that relationship as safely as possible, whether you live

(01:14:10):
with them, have kids, et cetera. I think that is
always something I'm going to recommend is the very first step,
and the second is do not be afraid to talk
to people. I have found that our hardest experiences in
life either make us more empathetic to others going through it,
or allow others an opportunity to help us get through it.

(01:14:34):
And when you shut off those conversations that you're I
don't know about you, guys, but if I have something
weighing all my heart, if I don't talk about it,
it's almost like the worst stomach ache. It's just sitting
there and festering. And you don't need to do that
to yourself. There's so many people that you can reach
out to, and if you're not in a position where

(01:14:56):
friends and family might not be local to you, or
or you don't feel comfort rule, there's complete strangers that
have been through this that are willing to rally like
hell for you to get out of there safely and
that you can have the therapy that you will need.
There's no there's such a stigma about getting mental health help.

(01:15:17):
But if you live in fear for X amount of
months or years, that doesn't just go away. It's going
to take that same amount of time, if not more,
two retrain yourself to not live in fear and to
have a safe, unbiased person to talk to about it.

(01:15:40):
So I think making sure that you are getting out safely, UM,
not making spontaneous decisions that could potentially put you in
harm's way. Going to the hotline dot org. Allowing these
people to rally for you and make sure that you
and potential any children are are able to get out
of there safely, and create a plan. Plan is a huge,

(01:16:01):
a huge help, UM, because it's not everyone's reality where
you can just wake up and say I'm getting the
keys and I'm getting in the car and I'm going.
That isn't always the safest bet depending on the type
of abuser that is in your life. So having a
plan and then making yourself and your mental health and

(01:16:23):
recovery a priority through conversation with others, through the conversations
with therapists, and to not be afraid, I mean this conversation,
I can't tell you I was sweating bullets to have it, UM,
but to not be afraid of maybe the one or
two potential criticisms that can come from it, because you

(01:16:44):
are so worthy of being heard and you're your words
could help somebody else what a fantastic articulate advocate you are.
I don't know. I'm a rambler, so I don't know
how articulate I was, but oh, incredibly at least. I

(01:17:06):
I don't want to understate just how like how great
you've been in the last forty hours for others, including
this moment, including me. This isn't about me, I know that,
but like in times of like not like feeling like
I'm spending not knowing how this is happening and not
knowing where to go with it and not knowing how

(01:17:27):
to how to process it, You've been awesome and you're
gonna make me cry now, And I got through that
whole thing without crying. You know, we come on this
thing and like it's not worth it's it's not worth
any time or effort to do this and know that
like other people are gonna experience pain because of the

(01:17:49):
hour and a half that we take a week to
just like talk about a crazy show. And every once
in a while, like it hits and it hits hard,
and you realize that your words really do matter. And
I want to thank you for being in this with
me and also encouraging me yet keeping me knowing what

(01:18:11):
I did wrong, UM, and how hard it was for
me to hear that, yet how helpful it's been, UM,
And thank you for coming on. Like, I don't want
to underestimate just how much it took for you to
even like show up today and to stalk talk to us,
and to to sit in this and be here. And
I guarantee you this, there's somebody outside of myself, even

(01:18:31):
that myself included, that will hear you talk today and
their life will be changed forever for the better. And
like that is a weight that I want you to
know and I wanted you to carry, and I want
you to realize because I can't imagine anything anything better
to spend our time doing that. And so at least,
thank you for coming on, Thank you for being here.
This has been great. I appreciate you. At least your

(01:18:55):
approach in this situation has been so admirable. You've been honest,
be kind, You say, hey, guys, you messed up. You
hurt me and others. Here's what you went wrong. And
I just really appreciate. I appreciate that. May add something
I didn't know that you said that, UM. I think

(01:19:15):
because both of you are public figures right. I just
went back. I took my white dress and went back
to my life as normal. But we are. And I
said this to Ben yesterday when I was a little
bit concerned for maybe where his emotional space was, is
that I would just encourage people this kind of a

(01:19:36):
two point thing that first of all, um, be careful
when you are critiquing others that you I'm treading carefully
because Ben, what you said's not okay, but you didn't
do it with negative intent and that was clear to

(01:19:59):
me from the beginning. And just be a little slower
people to jump know and be able to differentiate if
you are speaking from a place of trauma, if you're
speaking from a place of emotion, take a beat before
having that conversation with with someone so that you can
come to them from a place of love and with

(01:20:21):
your ears open and not attacking them for something that
they might not just understand yet. And that really extends
to social media that people giving commentary. And I told Ben,
I won't come on here and give commentary about the
topic because I don't think commentary on someone's trauma is
any of our rights. That person can speak for themselves

(01:20:44):
and them alone, because they're the only ones that know
the depth of what's going on. And I've read comments
online directed towards Ben, directed towards someone that I consider
a friend from my time on the show, and it
terrifies me, not only for that person's mental well being,
but also for how paralyzing. If you can stop before

(01:21:07):
you comment and think is this helpful? Because my god,
if my twenty year old self had read these comments
that are directed towards someone who rightfully um made steps
to feel safe, how paralyzing that would have been for
me in seeking that same help. Seeing that amount of

(01:21:27):
criticism and shame and speculation is not acceptable because you're
not in the situation. These are characters that you see
on TV, and no we're not actors, but you see
such a small fraction of our lives that you do
not get to pass judgment on what length someone needs
to go to feel safe, because we all have that
right and your comments, not you guys specifically, obviously, but

(01:21:52):
people that are commenting these things. I'm just terrified for
someone reading it. Like I said, my itself would never
have sought help if I thought I would get a
fraction of the criticism that I'm seeing online. It's disgusting.
Well in there, Elise. Thank you. UM, if you don't mind,

(01:22:14):
we have a tradition that we're going to keep too, um,
so follow our lead. This has been an almost famous podcast.
It's a special podcast. Um, I've I don't know if
I've enjoyed sitting in it. I've I'm glad I sat
in it. I'll say that. Um. But with that, I've

(01:22:35):
been been, I've been Ashley, and I've been a naughty
Elise naughty. A thank you followed the Benn and Ashley
I Almost Famous podcast on iHeart Radio or subscribe wherever
you listen to podcasts.