Almost Famous In Depth: Zac Clark

Ben and Ashley are ready to go IN DEPTH with a member of Bachelor Nation whose story needs to be told… Zac Clark.
 
We talk to Zac about his journey through addiction, which inspires Ben to open up about his own struggles with drug abuse. 

Zac gets real about his experience in his first marriage, and authentically shares the details about why that relationship fell apart. And we hear about his time on The Bachelorette from his point of view, all the way through to his proposal to Tayshia.
 
Plus, we hear about Zac’s work with addiction centers and how he’s helping others facing the same challenges.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast
with on our radio.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
We have a very special guest today, Somebody who has
only been on the podcast once, way back in the day,
like right after the season was completed. Somebody that I
look up to a lot, I respect in the work
that he does. Uh, Somebody that I enjoy following on Instagram.
Somebody I'm very excited to have on the Almost Famous Podcast. Ashley,
I know you are as well. This has been somebody

(00:25):
we've asked to bring on for weeks now mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:29):
The perfect person to do it in depth with because
I do truly feel like there's a lot of depth
to him and he has a lot of backstory. It
is Zach Clark. Hey, Zach, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 5 (00:40):
What's up, guys am? I super I was on before.

Speaker 4 (00:43):
Yeah all right, so I actually like have to we'd
have to really go back. But I do think that
you probably came mom Atasha and like an after you
did like what like right as you were announced in
like a speed press round.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yeah, a whole different life for you, buddy.

Speaker 5 (00:57):
Okay, all right, I'll.

Speaker 4 (01:00):
He believes that I don't even trust ourselves here because
I'm like kind of torn on this, Irue. Okay, all right,
so Zach, we're really excited to have you here. When
we do in depths, we like kind of start with
people's childhood and up.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
So are you ready let's do it.

Speaker 5 (01:18):
Yeah, a lot of a lot of childhood stuff, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:21):
Yeah, so tell us about like where you grew up,
what your family dynamic was like. Based on the show,
it seems like you have like the most warm and
wonderful family. We'll tell us about this.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
That's so crazy you asked that. I was just talking
to my Yeah, like it was like a white picket
fence upbringing. And if you saw the Clark family from
the outside, you'd be like, oh, they're the perfect like
American dream family. But when you really dig in, there's
like substance use and eating disorders, anxiety and all the shit, right,
so you just never know what's going on. I mean, look,

(01:52):
I grew up in uh in South Jersey. I one
of five kids. My parents are still happily married, so
they've been an amazing example for me for my entire existence.

Speaker 5 (02:04):
And like, I have no notes on my upbringing.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
I mean I always I like when when people ask
me about my high school experience. I always kind of
say it was like that days and confused, you know,
like I don't know who we've seen the movie, but like,
you know, played three sports and drank in the woods
on the weekends and chase girls and ran from cops
and had a lot of fun. I don't really like,
there wasn't a lot of trauma. There was no reason

(02:26):
why I, you know, became a drug addict or whatever happened,
but I did, you know, And that's why I'm so
passionate about talking talking about it. However, many years later.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
You know, it's interesting because you say that, and I
think you know, our stories are different but similar in
a lot of ways, Like I had an amazing upbringing
and yet found myself addicted as well. And there's been
moments obviously in that Zach, that I felt, I don't
know what the emotion around it is, guilty, sometimes confused,

(02:59):
like how did that happened to me?

Speaker 3 (03:01):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (03:02):
You know, at times like I'll be honest, I'll just
say it like I wish I had a better story,
Like I wish like I was at times like almost
envious of not having this like really gritty, like terrible
upbringing where I'm like, yeah, that's why I did what
I did, or that's how I got to where I got.
Do you ever feel that or when you look at
that kind of childhood that you grew up in, Like,

(03:25):
how do you view it? I guess in the lens
of now looking back on it.

Speaker 5 (03:30):
Yeah, no, I've I've definitely felt that. And kudos to you, man.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
I read I read a little bit about your story,
and likewise, I've been following you and I just love
that we get to do this and kind of shoulder
to shoulder and talk about it. And the truth is
like when I when I got sober, someone sat me
down because I was like, dude, I don't know, like
there's parts of my story that don't seem so interesting.
I mean, it gets definitely it's gnarly at some point.
But he looks me back in the eyes, like, dude,

(03:54):
the truth is the truth. He's like, the good news
now is all you have to do is be honest, right,
And so like I've I've tried to lean into that.

Speaker 5 (04:02):
But if you, you know, looked.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
At the town I grew up in, I mean it's
like a country club town in South Jersey, right, Like
I didn't want for anything. I had the nice baseball bat,
I had the nice glove. I you know, there was
always food on the plate, right and like sure, like
I could have dressed it up and bullshited people about
my upbringing, but I I'm proud of that today and
like I lean into that. I guess is really the

(04:25):
name of the game.

Speaker 4 (04:26):
Well, you said that there was darkness and alcoholism and
antarexi and all that, So when did that start playing in.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
So so, my sister's very open. She had an eating disorder,
and that was kind of like I remember that back,
Like I remember dropping her off to those appointments when
I was in high school, right, Like mom would drop
me off at sports practice and she would go see
her therapist and that was like all like over over
my head, you know. My older brother I would say,

(04:57):
like maybe has a little work all like perfectionism or
work ahol. And then there's me, right, Like I think
for the most part, I had a good high school experience,
got into college, played college baseball. But I just always
loved the party, you know, and it's just it was
the most important thing in my life. Like if I
knew that I had a drunk coming that's all I

(05:19):
really cared about, and it didn't really add up for
me until until I got this brain tumor and ended
up in surgery and they started pouring pills down my throat, right, Like,
that's when it really was like pouring gasoline on the fire.

Speaker 5 (05:32):
But I think I think, like I you know, I
think I like to say.

Speaker 3 (05:37):
Like I've done a lot of work and I've looked
at my childhood and you know, I would tell you
that like in my household, we didn't We are a
loving family and we always joke, but we don't really
have those conversations where like there was never the birds
and the bees talk. There was never like to talk
about don't do drugs. It was kind of just like
kind of figure it out on your own. And I
don't know that was just my parents' way of parenting

(06:00):
or whatever it was, but it's definitely interesting to look
back at it now and that in my work, right,
like I see all these families come into my care
and I'm like, oh, I know that because that's what
it felt like for me growing up or whatever like that.
So I don't know, I could talk about this stuff
for hours.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
Well, good thing we have a lot of time with
you then the so for those that don't know, because
you know, I think that I think unfairly to you
when you're on the show and then post show, you know,
people really grab gravitated and hold on held on to
the story that you were a recovered addict and that

(06:41):
you had that story. But what they missed in that
is kind of, uh, how that started, and that was
with a brain tumor where the medicines and the pain
pills and these things kind of were given to you
through the medical profession. And so if you don't mind
kind of giving us that story of you know, you
played college baseball and then at what age did you

(07:02):
find out that you had a brain tumor and how
did that kind of go through you know process.

Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, yeah, it's and this is also I actually celebrate
twelve years tomorrow, so this is all right. Yeah yeah,
so it's all like im it's that time of year
where I'm feeling all the fields. But so I appreciate
that we're talking about all this stuff. So look, I
don't I don't blame doctors. I don't blame the medical profession.
I think we've come a long way since that experience.

(07:29):
As a society. But I will tell you that free surgery.
Like definitely loved the party, Definitely wasn't afraid of a
bond hit, definitely dabbling in pills and coke and all
the that you kind of do in high school and college.
And then I graduate college and I'm living this whatever
normal existence. I get my first job, I'm dating my

(07:51):
college sweetheart, and life is kind of good, aside from
the fact that I'm probably blacking out like three or
four times a week. So prior to the surgery, I
already had these tendencies, right Like, I already there was
something inside me and and I'm very aware of that.
And what happened was it was Memorial Day weekend, so

(08:12):
it was the beginning of summer. Me and my college
buddies had rented the house down the Jersey Shore. We
were going to go, you know, party for the weekend,
and we were packing up the cores and the car
and I just I hadn't been feeling good for a
couple of weeks, and I said to them, I was like, guys,
I gotta I got try and figure this out. And
I literally I remember calling this X Ray place, which

(08:33):
is kind of like your side of the road, suburban
kind of strip mall X ray place, and I made
an appointment.

Speaker 5 (08:38):
I literally was a drive in. I drove in and
this sweet X.

Speaker 3 (08:44):
Ray technician or whatever you want to call it, came
back after she had taken a few scans, and she
was white as a ghost, and I could just tell
something was wrong. She was like, you're not You're not moving.
I need to basically call an ambulance. And so from
that moment, within the next twenty four hours, I'm at
University of Penn Hospital in Philadelphia getting this tumor cut

(09:05):
out of the back of my head. And there was
no like pre op. There was no conversations like we
got to get this thing out of here and we gotta,
you know, worry about it after the fact. So I
go from you know, I'm going down the shore with
my friends to you know, having this life threatening surgery
in a matter of twenty four hours. So I don't
know what the hell is going on. And I remember

(09:25):
waking up in the ICU, like you know what, naked
like with all these things like tied into me and
they're just pumping me with meds, right, And I remember
thinking to myself, like there's no way that I kind
of feel this good after having that just happened to me,
and it clicked in my mind that the meds were

(09:48):
doing that for me. And so, you know, I spent
whatever it was, a couple of weeks in the hospital.
And the one thing I will say, there was never
a doctor that came in and said, hey, these are
the meds we're putting you on. You know, this is
what they do and this is what you have to
watch out for. They kind of just gave it to me.
And I got out of the hospital and I finished
off by prescriptions and I started to probably feel a

(10:09):
little bit of those withdrawal symptoms, and I took to
the streets, like I started buying drugs on the streets.
And from there it was kind of like off of
the races, crazy so quick.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, and that I mean, you know that kind of
went off to the races. I think, get it going
to the streets. You know. For me, I had my
very first high school start at quarterback, big deal for me,
blow out my knee, you know, like four plays in
just to totally destroy my knee. Sports are done, Like
I'm done.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
That was it.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
That was it, Like never again all three ligaments, like
I never recovered. I came back and but just was
like a shell of myself athletically, and it was the
identity switch for me, like it was the Hey, this
is the thing I've known, this is what I've been
known for, this is what I thought my future looked like.
Now I'm just a student and a pretty poor one
at that, and really have no clue what life is

(11:00):
going to look like. And so the the medicine started there,
like the painkillers started there, and then they numbed me
like that, like as soon as I got off of them,
then all of a sudden, I started to feel that
like depression and I started to feel the identity switch.
And so the pills numbed my senses and kind of
made me feel non existent, which is what I was

(11:21):
looking for, and that's where the addiction started. And then
obviously I had hit the streets as well. I know
what that looks like, hitting the streets for me. So
that started in two thousand and eight ended in twenty twelve.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
Yeah, yeah, we were out there semi same.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, so the you know, for me, at least, my
hitting the streets look like this stealing. And then obviously
buying wherever I could. For those that are listening, obviously
you do this for a profession now, And I think
for me, as I've walked through this journey, it's all
it's been really good to talk talk about it because
I think it a lot more people than we understand

(12:03):
are dealing with this. What did that look like for
you hitting the streets? Like what kind of things could
you share and warning signs? Maybe for family and friends?

Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yeah, I mean it's heavy, and I appreciate you sharing, bro,
And it's like, this is why I do what I do,
because I get to share openly with guys like you
about that people here and probably over dramatize, but really
it's just a part of our story and we choose
to lead into that. And I think my truth about
podcasts in general is I don't like get super excited

(12:35):
for them or love them, but if we help one
person today, that's really it was all worth it, right,
Like at the end of the day, That's what I
really truly believe. And my experience has told me that
when I do these things, typically.

Speaker 5 (12:48):
The DM start flying in and we start to help
some people.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
You know, For me one, it has absolutely changed in
the last ten years I was out there.

Speaker 5 (13:01):
Now, I wouldn't I wouldn't be alive.

Speaker 3 (13:03):
Just because fentanyl, which is the synthetic popia that's being
put in all these street drugs, and it's basically fifty
times stronger than the painkillers you and I did, right,
So people are dying left and right. I mean, you
see the narcan up here on my shelf. I mean
I carry that where because you just never know. But
for me, you know what it looked like is I

(13:24):
obviously had a lot of guilt and shame around the
fact that I was hooked on drugs, so I didn't
want anyone to know about my habit. Initially, I found
a drug dealer in town that sold pills, and I
managed to kind of keep that habit going for I
would say about a year after the surgery, where you know,
you wake up, you text a drug dealer, you go,

(13:45):
you buy your whatever head stashed for the day, you
take them, you do them. And it's a crazy cycle
because what started as swallowing pills turns into snorting pills,
and then I'm smoking pills, and it's just like the progression, right,
and at every step along the way, I was resetting
my tolerance. Yeah, as you probably know, right, Like you

(14:05):
go from taking a five milligram perk to take in,
you know, one hundred milligrams of oxycon in the day,
like whatever it was for me, that's what it was
for me. And then beyond, you know, And then what
happened was I ended up in rehab for the first time.
And while rehab saved my life, eventually, I will say

(14:29):
that the first time I was in rehab, I learned
about heroin, I learned about other drugs. I got super curious.
I knew that I wasn't done. So I got out
of treatment and tried to find pills, couldn't and I
don't know what happens. I found pills, I started doing it.
I was like, okay, like this is becoming too expensive

(14:51):
too quickly. And then I went and bought a bag
of heroin for the first time, and again that reset
my tolerance. And a bag of heroin's ten bucks right
whereas a p I was paying fifty sixty dollars a pill.
And then I kind of lived that way for a
certain period of time, and then that's when the needle
came into play and I started shooting drugs, you know,

(15:11):
So it's like it goes from this crazy brain tumor
to hooked on pills to it's an expensive habit to
in rehab. So it's an even.

Speaker 5 (15:23):
More expensive habit to heroin.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
And that's why I always say, like, you need to
normalize that word, because you know, I say heroin to
someone and they look at me like I have four eyes,
when in reality it's you know, more people are doing
it than you realize.

Speaker 4 (15:46):
How did you get into that rehab? Was there an
intervention with your family?

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Great question. So the first time I went to rehabit
was so I was married previously. I got married in
June of two thousand and nine to my college sweetheart,
and she saved my life. I will say that here
on the record. And we were basically married for a year.
She knew that I loved to party and that something

(16:14):
was off, but she also loved me right because we're
lovable people. And then in so it was like October
of twenty ten, the wheels were starting to come off,
and like the three thousand foot overview of my life
is I'm newly married. I'm living in this house and
like the town I grew up, and we had this

(16:35):
little dog that's running around, and you know, there's like.

Speaker 5 (16:41):
Two cars in the driveway. I'm working, She's a teacher.

Speaker 3 (16:44):
On the outside, again, it looks like we had this
pretty normal life, but behind the scenes, I'm hooked on pills.
I'm building like massive gambling debt, and my entire life
is a lie, right, and I'm starting to get disconnected
from the people in my life that mean the most
to me. So that story is actually pretty hilarious. My
wife and mom were out at a bar classically in

(17:06):
the town of Pattonfield, where I grew up, and one
of my friends actually went up to them and told
them that I was that I had a drug problem.

Speaker 5 (17:12):
So my mom came home to my house.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
I'm like sitting there watching the Phillies game, and she's like,
we know what's going on.

Speaker 5 (17:18):
I'm like, what the hell, what are you talking about?
She goes, we know you're hooked on drugs.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
So that night, I actually drove myself to a rehab
that I had seen a billboard for on the side
of the road, which is insane. I think I was
their first and only drive in customer ever, because I
just like I didn't know what else to do right,
And so I slept in that in the parking lot
of that rehab, I like knocked on the door of
the detox. It's a hilarious story actually if you think
about it, like don't you can't just walk into rehab?

(17:46):
And then I admitted the next day and I stayed
for for twenty eight days. And you know, while it
didn't stick, I learned a lot that first time around.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, did you did you want to? I mean when
when they confronted you, I think there's the piece here
I want to dig into a little bit. So I
don't know if you've learned that you could if you
could speak to this, Is there a healthy way to
confront somebody who's an addict? Did they do it? And
I mean typically people have no idea, Right, your mom

(18:18):
and your your wife find out and they come home
and they're like probably freaked out, they're nervous, they're scared.
And then they come home they're like, we know what's
going on? Like is there a way they could have
done this better? Not that like they messed up, but
is there a way they could have done this better?
And then the second part of that is were you
ready to hear this? From somebody you loved.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
So there's a couple questions. There was I ready. I
there was a sense of relief when I found out
that they knew because I had been living such a lie, right,
so the fact that it was out me open, I
did feel a little shift. I was not ready to
be done drinking and doing drugs. That had never crossed

(18:58):
my mind. But I'm also like a mama's boy. I'm
super sensitive and so like when my mom walked through
the door, I always respected my mother, and so I.

Speaker 5 (19:09):
Was going to listen, and I felt it in my soul.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
Looking back, maybe if they had a professional or went
about it in a little bit of a different way,
could it have had a different outcome. I don't know.

Speaker 5 (19:21):
The research actually suggests that.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
The willingness that you go into rehab with has no
bearing on whether or not you're going to stay sober
or not. You know, like you hear a lot of
times people are like, well they got to hit rock
bottom before they go in, and get like that's bullshit, right,
Like I've seen people turn their lives around who you know,
just wanted to turn their lives around, Or I've seen
people go to rehab kicking and screaming that end up

(19:46):
with a really good outcome. So don't I don't really
buy into that. I think for like the listeners, if
you're concerned about a loved one, obviously having a professional
guide you is key becau because it removes the emotion
from it, right Like a family member, a spouse, a brother,
a sister, it's just going to be emotional.

Speaker 5 (20:07):
It's just going to be too emotional, right.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
And what I always say is like, for me, if
there's a professional in the room and there's an intervention
going on, I'm not going to use my kind of
like I'm not going to weaponize some of the I
would usually weaponize against my family and my loved ones
because I don't. I would be embarrassed to do that, right, Like,
it kind of takes the air and the emotion out
of the room because I don't want them to see

(20:29):
the act that way.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
Right.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
So, but it all comes back to love and compassion
and just making sure that the person who's struggling with
their mental health or their substantutes disorders is seen and heard.
That's so much of it. And I've done tons of
interventions and sometimes they go and sometimes they don't. Typically
if you stay on them though, they'll eventually ask for help.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
Who are the professionals? Like, if somebody's out there listening,
you're like, yeah, I'm in this scenario. I need to
reach out to a professional to help me with through
this with me.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
Okay, yeah you can DM. I mean we have look,
I have, like so released recovered my company here in
New York, we have seventy something employees trained intervention is
on staff. I mean, we we get these calls all day,
every day, and if it's not us, then we will,
you know, refer you out to the to the appropriate person.
And that's really been the blessing and the curse of

(21:22):
this whole platform. I guess you would call it. That
I've been given is that I have to be very
mindful these days of when I post or when I
put something out there, because every time I do, the
influx of people kind of asking for help and wanting
assistance can can be overwhelming. And you know, like the
like the drug addict that I am, I want to

(21:44):
help everyone and I want to do it all and
sometimes that's not healthy for me.

Speaker 4 (21:48):
So did you do you find that there is like
that you were hiding it? I mean I'm sure I'm
assuming that you were hiding your your addiction symptoms. What
did you do to hide it? And what should family
and friends look out for in people when they're a
suspect of it.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
I mean, and Ben, I don't know if you can
relate to this, but we're pretty good.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
I was just gonna say my first response is, I
don't think anybody would know. Really, no, they had no idea, Like.

Speaker 4 (22:20):
Your behavior wasn't different because you just feel like you're
in your normal state.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
I like super I was probably in a pretty good
mood most of the time.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
Yeah, I mean, actually, if you look at me a
bend right now, right like two pretty probably I would say,
like charming, charismatic guys, you put a smile on and
fake it, right. So I think that's the life I
lived for a very long time, and I was I
was fun to hang out with, Like I mean, like
we went out on a Friday night, we were probably
getting into something pretty pretty exciting just because whatever.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, I mean my parents. You know, obviously new bits
and pieces of this. The book that I wrote explains
it in a lot more detail, and then the questions
started to come out for that, you know, some of
the questions and interviews I get is like, are you
ever upset with your parents for not like helping you more?
And I'm like, no, because like one of my main
goals was to keep the people I loved like not
knowing about this, and so it would have been a

(23:10):
really hard mystery or a really hard thing for them
to crack when you know, I wasn't letting them in
on this secret or this thing that I was hurting with.
And and so I guess that's a good point too.
Maybe it's like if you know, if you're sitting there,
you're feeling shame and gil as a family member or
a loved one because you didn't know or you didn't
ask the right questions at the right times, so that

(23:32):
somebody that was hurting was you know it, you know,
telling you about this, like don't don't carry that because
you know, as an addict, at least, I was working
really hard to keep it inside of me.

Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yeah, So you're saying that your mom and your wife
were out at a bar, had no idea that you
had these issues, and then somebody else came up and
told them, and that's how they found out. And that
was the first time they had an inkling.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, they were like sitting there swirling shot on a
Thursday night. And it's funny, my buddy that.

Speaker 5 (24:04):
Actually outed me.

Speaker 3 (24:05):
I always laughed because he I ended up putting him
in rehab like four years later, so I got him back.
But I credit him with being part of the reason
that I'm here today because if he didn't do that,
I don't I don't really know what would have happened.
And what I tell all family members, Like, the thing
that I think is important for people to understand about
behavioral health care, about substance use disorder, about addiction is that,

(24:30):
you know, if I had the cure, if I had
the magic answer, I wouldn't be sitting on this podcast.

Speaker 5 (24:35):
I'd be flying around on my private checks.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
I would have sold the solution, right, Like if you
look at heart disease and diabetes and some of these
other diseases out there, you go to the doctor, they're
going to tell you what to do, They're going to
put you on medication, they're gonna, you know, if you
have cans like whatever it is, and you're, as the patient,
going to follow those recommendations to a t because you
want to live right or you want to get your
diabetes under wrap, or you want to beat cancer or
what like. With this, I could go to a rehab,

(25:00):
or I could go to a therapist, or I could
go to a doctor, and they could make five suggestions,
and the addict in me is going to be like, well,
I don't really want to do that. I'll think about
doing that. I'll probably go to rehab next month. So
there's no blueprint on what really works here, which is
why anytime I talk to a family, I make sure

(25:20):
that they're taking care of themselves first, because the most
powerful thing that can happen is when the family changes, right,
because so much of this is en messed in that
family of origin and the way you grow up. And
if the family can change and the mom can stop
enabling or whatever it is, then the identified patient, so
like me in this case, is going to realize that

(25:41):
and I'm going to start to understand that my bullsh
isn't working anymore, and I'm going to be forced to.

Speaker 5 (25:46):
Kind of look at myself.

Speaker 3 (25:49):
So a big part of this is like each family
member or the wife or the spouse or whoever it
is taking care of themselves and them changing so that
the whole family system can change, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
There's a there's so much here is Zach to break down,
and all of it's important. I don't think we have
time to talk through all the process, you know, But
looking back, you know, I'm sure you have similar stories.
I've lost, you know, close friends. My best friend in
high school passed away due to fit and all use
when we were sophomores in college. So you know, there's

(26:28):
people out there right now who have lost loved ones.
And there's also I just had a time this weekend.
I was with a group and one of the guys
had just recently gotten sober from the same type of
pills that I was using. We're kind of chatting through it,
like how lucky are we?

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Right?

Speaker 2 (26:47):
You said it earlier, like the amount of pills I
was taking, Not that it would dramatize it, but like,
it's it's scary for me to think about now. It
frightens me that that was what I was putting in
my body. And people ask me, and I want to
hear your response, but they said, people ask me, like,
what does it feel like to be sober right? Or

(27:07):
what does it feel like not to be using anymore?
And I'm like, well, I don't know if this is
for everybody's story. I want to hear mostly because I'm curious.
Like the addict like in me always wants a pill
like that has not gone away. It's not like all
of a sudden now I'm sitting here being like, no,
this does not sound fun to me. Still the feeling
I don't wish to have again like that still sits

(27:28):
inside of me. The difference now is that there's decisions
and tools that you know, I've had to learn and
implement in my life to not open up the bottle
or to not get back there. So for somebody listening
and for yourself in your experience, somebody's maybe feeling some
shame because they've recovered and they're sitting there going, yeah,
but I want it bad, Like are they Are we

(27:50):
alone in that?

Speaker 3 (27:51):
Like?

Speaker 2 (27:51):
Am I? Am I alone in that feeling? Or is
that a common feeling?

Speaker 3 (27:55):
I think it's a common feeling. This might be.

Speaker 5 (28:00):
We differ a little bit.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
I think for me, the obsession to drink and drug
was lifted at some point, and I don't crave that.
You know, the thing that's really interesting is that I've
been I've been working in behavioral health care now for
the last eleven years. So I've seen so many cases
come across my desk where you know, they're they're and

(28:25):
they're all just so different. They're all like, so your
case is different than my case, which is different than
the you know, the galaxit next to me. And that's
why it's so important to kind of approach this thing
with love and compassion, because your story is different than mine, right, Like,
I don't know, Like for me, I don't drink, I
don't do drugs. I live this like completely sober lifestyle.

(28:47):
I know other people in my life who you know,
have have had a cocaine problem and they've been able
to put the cocaine down and they can still have
a glass of wine on a Friday night, right Like
I don't. I don't have that luxury because I'm convinced
that that will lead me to, you know, other drugs.
And so you're absolutely not alone, you know, in the
fact that, like you still have these cravings from time

(29:09):
to time. I think where and I can only use
my experience. Where I go with it is that I
look at the last twelve years of my life and
what I've been able to do and my my existence
is next next level, and I still get to do,
Like one of my big things today is showing people
that I still get to do some of the coolest
this planet has to offer. I just don't have to
drink and do drugs. And in my first year, you know,

(29:31):
I didn't do those things. But like this last weekend,
I was up at Saratoga with my buddies from from
high school, Like we were at the horse races. We were,
you know, up all night, dancing, the whole thing, and
and they're partying their asses off, and I'm right there
with them, just making a decision not to drink and
do drugs. So there's that. And then the other thing
I will tell you, like in your case, from my

(29:53):
case or anyone else who's kind of you know, on
this journey, is there's a lot of like shame and
stigma around this word. So like, you know, maybe you
don't do pills for five, six, seven, ten years, and
then you have a slip and people really struggle to
come back from that. And what I would tell that
person is like that little slip or whatever happened, doesn't

(30:13):
discount the many years of work you did to get
to that point and at any point in time, you
can get right back on and stay sober for that day.

Speaker 5 (30:22):
So I don't know that was helpful if I answer
your question.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
But that's kind of just yeah, everyty story is different
and there there are different elements to everything, you know.
I think the point that I was trying to make
is like the shame and the guilt I would like
to release from the people out there struggling or the
family that feels like somebody struggling, because that was never helpful.
Like the shame of the guilt was the stuff that
I was trying to get, you know, rid myself from

(30:47):
and one of the you know, catalysts to the start.
And so I like that. I mean, I don't like
that makes it sound like I'm that I knew going in,
or I was trying to push you in a certain direction.
I am appreciating, I guess as I listened to you
the normalization of these conversations and these words and these experiences,
because I think normalizing these experiences and allowing an open

(31:11):
space to talk about it and allowing a space for
compassionate love would have been the only thing that would
have helped me, at least in my personal experience been
the only thing that I would have felt comfortable being like, yeah,
this is this is where I'm at, and this is
this is where I you know, where I don't want
to go.

Speaker 4 (31:38):
Zach Ben recently had knee surgery. How do you walk
addicts through who have recovered into a time where they
might need the drug again under medical supervision.

Speaker 5 (31:54):
Case by case, Really did you have to take that or.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
No I did. Yeah I had my system, but yeah,
you know, if you have an answer to this, but yeah,
I'd have my own personal system for that time.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
Yeah. I think there's a lot of ways. I mean,
we've had people in our care here at release that,
you know, two months into their stay in one of
our programs, they need to get some type of major
surgery done, and we approach that with extreme caution. You know.
The first thing I always say is like advil and
title all is pretty damn good when taken correctly, and

(32:28):
so let's try that and give that a shot. And
if not, you need to take opiates or take pills
to help you get through the pain. There's a way
that we can do that. Obviously, consulting with your doctor
is a big thing there, and being really open and
honest with them about you know, your previous experience being
hooked on drugs and hoping that they have some bedside

(32:51):
banner to be able to work with you on that.
And then you know, enrolling your loved ones, enrolling the
people in your life that care about you, and for
all all this stuff, It all, for me goes back
to honesty, Like if.

Speaker 5 (33:03):
I am honest, it bends honest.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
Actually, if you're honest about whatever it is that we're
going through, then we have a shot to get through
it in a pretty in a pretty safe and healthy way.
Where it goes off the rails is you know, someone
get surgery two months into recovery and you know they're
managing their own pills and they're picking up the scripts
and you know they're doubling down on the dosage. I mean,

(33:25):
the dosages are there for a reason, and the directions
are there for a reason, and so trying to you know,
follow those things to the best your ability and leaning
on your.

Speaker 5 (33:34):
Support group, you can absolutely get through it.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, I mean, you know what I did, and maybe
it's helpful, maybe it's not for anybody. Is my wife
and my mom who are here kind of caring for me.
For that first two weeks, they were in charge of
my bottle, and then there was literally a day where
I remember looking at my mom and saying, I am
enjoying this too much, like I don't need these anymore.

(34:00):
You need to take these away from me. She had
started to hint at it already, like hey, you know,
we're ten days out and you're running through these things,
and I'm like, yeah, I'm enjoying this, Like I I
like this. Now, it's probably best I stopped, and we stopped,
and as much as you know, eight o'clock would roll
around and be like, you know, it sounds really good

(34:21):
right now is for her to go back up and
give me like they were in control of that, and
they had to say, no, here's yeah, here's some Adville Hills,
here's some til and all. You'll be fine. So it
was the honesty. I think the honesty was just helpful,
and you know, we got through it well, I think,
as you know, for me. And when I said it earlier,
like maybe the addict always at least I crave it

(34:41):
at times in my life a lot less than it
used to be, Like yes, it like saying it out loud,
admitting it now that my family and my wife know
that this was a part of my story, like you know,
they're not shocked, and I'm like, you know what i'd
really really feeling right now And they're like, yeah, that's
not an and I'm like, yeah not, So what are

(35:02):
we going to do. Let's go for a run, Let's
go for a walk, like I got to get my
mind off this. So it's the honesty and just kind
of owning it a little bit. I guess for me
has helped me not have access to it, or not
want access to it, or not fight for access to it.

Speaker 3 (35:18):
I relate to that so much. I love that your
mom and wife are so supportive, and for me, it's
like it just goes back to this, like as a
human being, I want to be loved, right, I want
to be believed. I want people to like me. And
so when I think about my childhood and kind of
the way this episode or podcast started, you asked me
about that, and I remember from a very young age

(35:39):
just wanting to be loved, like that's it, and that
like the lying for me almost started before any addiction,
because I would tell people what I thought they wanted
to hear. If I thought it was going to make
them like me more, right, And what I've learned in
this experience over the past twelve years, when I just
tell the truth, I'm actually a pretty decent, likable guy,

(36:03):
and I'm gonna make mistakes like anyone else. But it
just makes everything so much easier.

Speaker 4 (36:07):
You know, how did your first marriage fall apart?

Speaker 3 (36:14):
I mean, I can give you I mean, you could
guess at that one, but one. I was twenty five
and I don't I don't know that I even understood
what marriage really was. I still don't know if I
understand that. That's why I'm thirty nine and single. But
I was twenty five and I just wasn't ready. I

(36:37):
wasn't ready for any of it. You know. She was
an amazing woman, and she was a school teacher, like
could have a glass of wine, could not have a
glass of wine. Good great family, and I just put
you know, they kind of say this thing in recovery, like.

Speaker 5 (36:50):
Whatever you put in front.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
Of your recovery, you're going to lose, right, And it's
like the other way around, right, Like I put partying
and drugs and alcohol above everything else, and so naturally
that caught up to me and the real, the real fan.
I get like a little emotional talking about it because

(37:12):
she truly did save my life.

Speaker 5 (37:13):
So when I was in rehab.

Speaker 3 (37:14):
The first time, it's so crazy to think about, Uh,
we did this like family group or whatever it was,
and basically, like me and my wife at the time,
Jen made this contract and it essentially said like if
I got drunk or high again.

Speaker 5 (37:33):
She was going to leave me.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
And it's so hard for family members to honor those
types of contracts. And I got out of treatment and
I broke the contract and she came in the room
and she basically said, this is it. I'm done. You
know I'm not doing this. She's like, I love you,
I don't love this, and her dad came down to

(37:55):
the house that night when she figured it out. I'm like,
she stood so strong and I needed that. I needed that,
and and that resulted in me kind of going on
this eight month run when I knew she was really leaving,
when I knew she was actually saying like the party's over,

(38:15):
that took me to some pretty deep, dark places that
I had to get to and ultimately.

Speaker 5 (38:22):
Back into rehab the second time.

Speaker 4 (38:24):
When you say, you know the vows in sickness and
in health, would you consider what do you think about
that and her leaving.

Speaker 5 (38:34):
I think she did the right thing. I think.

Speaker 3 (38:41):
I don't blame I don't blame her at all. I don't.

Speaker 5 (38:46):
I mean, and there's not it. There wasn't even a
moment early on.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
Where I blamed her. I totally understood it because I
just wasn't. I think I've always been a good person.
I don't think I was behaving in a good way.
And there was no one on this planet that should
have put up with that. And the reality is is
like my dad and my one of my best friends,

(39:11):
this guy Anthony, were like the last two guys to
kind of hang in hang in with me. Most of
the people were kind of decided to do the same
thing she did, which is like this is too much.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
That's powerful because you know, I remember, you know, I
believe in a god above and so that's part of
my story as well. And I remember, you know, during
this time, friendships were leaving, and you know, romantic relationships
were ending, and not necessarily they knew why. But I

(39:45):
just wasn't. I was sketchy. I was a little bit
like I was lying half my life. I guess most
of my life, hundred percent of my life. And then
the prayer that I prayed. I remember I woke up
one morning after making a really terrible decision, and I
looked myself in the mirror, and I looked at myself
in the eyes in the mirror, which I'd never do.
It's a really weird thing to do. It's like stare

(40:06):
inside your soul. And I just remember this feeling of
that you're not the man you ever wanted to be.
And so my realization now and so I prayed to God, God,
please intervene if you're there, and I believe God did.
And that's my story. But the interesting part of that

(40:26):
looking back now is like I the people that left me,
I was never mad at like I was never like,
you know, screw you. It was almost more upset with
myself at times because I felt like like I knew
I wasn't a good dude. I thought I was. You know,
people would say, you know been so nice, Well, yeah,
he's always really friendly, but like in my heart, like

(40:48):
I knew that I wasn't a good dude, and or
I wasn't behaving in a way that I wanted to behave,
like make me the man that I wanted to be
or a dream of was a thought through my head,
and so I relate with that.

Speaker 5 (41:00):
Do you believe you're a good guy today? Like, have
you gotten around?

Speaker 2 (41:04):
I have a comfortable I have a comfortable perspective on myself,
which means, do I think I am the perfect guy
that in my head I could be?

Speaker 4 (41:14):
No?

Speaker 2 (41:15):
Do I feel good about the way that I treat people,
I treat myself, the honesty that I live my life
with the way that I treat my wife and my
family and my friends. Yes, I feel very good about
that because I my intention is really good now. I
don't have the hidden secrets. Do I think I'm you know,
the best dude? No, I have terrible moments, but I
can forgive myself now because they're true moments, Like they're

(41:36):
not lying moments. They're not me trying to fake it.
They're they're honest, and so that's what helps me. I
guess say, yeah, I'm human, like I'm not perfect, and
that's okay, I'm good anything to that.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
I just think it's amazing. Like I look at you,
I see a cool guy. I think someone like someone
I probably like to have a beer with or hang
out with, you know, like whatever it is.

Speaker 5 (42:01):
And I think for.

Speaker 3 (42:03):
Whoever listens to this or sees this, I think it's
really powerful to just and Ashley is like sitting over.

Speaker 5 (42:08):
There, I like to hear it too. It's so interested
going back and forth like this.

Speaker 3 (42:12):
And I always thought it was so weak to talk
about my feelings or be honest, like you know, like
I grew up and at home where it's like, you know,
give me twenty push ups and take out the trash, right,
And that was like that was toughness. And now today
I think it's tough to like pop on a podcast
with you guys and just like lay it all out
there and not give it more people think about it

(42:33):
because at the end of the day, the people that
are judging me, I don't really care anyway.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, the weird thing, Zach just selfishly in personally, I
got to share this that you know, I wrote this
part of my book and then it comes out and
then like it became the interview that everybody wanted. People
Magazine was like, hey, let's talk about your addiction. It's
like this is this is a big part of my life,
but it's also a very small part of my life, like,
this is four years of my life. This is not
my complete story. And I remember this. I was visiting

(43:02):
my family and we had just the night before kind
of talking talked through this, and they were saying they
were proud of me for speaking up on this and
they believed it was important and all these things. And
I was feeling great, and I was like, you know,
I got a great family. They love me, and I
got a great wife. She loves me, and they get it.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
You know.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
My in laws were there and they love me. You know,
they get it. And People magazine posted this picture of me,
and you know, the headline was like admits to addiction
or something, and the comments were awful, man, Like they were, oh,
you know, so sorry for Ben for having an addiction
ten years ago. Didn't we all like what a what

(43:39):
a headline grabber? And the like it crushed me. It
might have been the weakest like moment. I vividly remember
sitting on the beach in Florida looking out at the
ocean being like, I mean I could, yeah, it just
like it threw me in a place that I did
not want to go back to. And so I think,
as you're saying, how important it is to speak openly

(44:02):
about this. I believe it is. It did build some
grit inside me where I said, no, screw those people,
like that's not the people I'm talking to, That's not
the people that need to hear this. But it's also important,
like you say, as you were saying, to to respect
these stories with love and compassion, no matter where they
are or where they're at, or how you know, how

(44:23):
dramatic they seem or how undramatic they seem. They are
human stories and we need to you know, respect them.
And so I share that to say, yeah, that sucked.
That wasn't that long ago. That sucked. That was two
years ago. Like it threw me in a bad place,
you know. For me, it's an interesting thing that the
show gave me a lot more confidence in my story
than I originally had going into it because I was

(44:46):
allowed to, you know, at some point just said no,
I can't, I can't be in an environment. And it
was actually one of the producers along Gail came to
me and said, hey, I don't like you because I
don't know you, because you don't let anybody get to
know you. And I know there is more to you
than what you're sharing. And that was a four hour
sit down with him where I burst out and I
was like, yeah, I feel unmovable, I feel unlikable. I
feel like nobody knows me because I don't allow anybody
to know me. And that gave me the confidence then

(45:09):
step out and say, no, this is this is the
story I want to share. And that was you know,
one of the parts I want to talk to you
about here is you did go on the show. You
obviously have an understand you know, a depth to you
and a story to you that is is is powerful,
relatable that isn't uncommon amongst many and you said, hey, yes,

(45:31):
I know this is part of my story. I know
this is a part of my life, and I'm going
to go on the show and now make it public.
I would love to hear kind of how this show
affected you personally, if it was a positive or negative experience,
if you know, just walk us through kind of your time.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
Yeah, man, I mean, I don't know if I'm just
feel uncomfortable today, but like I don't talk about the
show a lot, and.

Speaker 5 (45:54):
I don't know why. I don't know if I've like
pushed that part of my life away.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
I don't know. I mean, obviously there was a relationship
that didn't work out, and I'm a super sensitive guy,
so maybe that's that has something to do with it.
But I can tell you that, I can tell you
my thought process leading up to it, which it was
the middle of COVID, right and I'm in New York.
I'm thirty six, I'm living this beautiful life. I'm running

(46:21):
this company. Like everything was good, Like everything was really good,
you know, aside the fact that I probably worked too
much and I didn't really put any time aside for
to find a partner, you know, like I got sober
and I hit the ground running here in New.

Speaker 5 (46:37):
York City, and I was building this company.

Speaker 3 (46:39):
And all this stuff, and the phone rang, you know,
like it does for all of us, I guess at
some point in time, and it was it was La calling,
and I'm like, I don't know.

Speaker 5 (46:48):
What is this, you know, like what is this phone call?

Speaker 3 (46:51):
And it was one of the producers, and I said,
lose my number, like I don't know what you're talking about,
like and then she got me. I remember, Ali, She's like,
is there any chance so like your sister like and
like I guess my sister had like gone on the
whatever and like filled out this application. I was like,
all right, tell me more. And that's an example of

(47:14):
like that was my sobriety talking. That was my recovery talking.
That was me saying like, okay, have an open mind
and just like put one foot in front of the other.
And then for me, the beautiful part was like if
I had to fly to La and like sing and
dance in front of a bunch of producers, like whatever
you gotta do. Like I I was able to do
all of it like virtually because it was COVID and

(47:35):
then in like I mean, I think it was like
six weeks and where I got to it was like okay,
like the world is shut down, this is an opportunity.
I have to put the phone down and really see,
like to your point, like if I'm lovable, if I'm
capable of love. And I felt really good walking into
it because I was very secure in who I was

(47:58):
and I had told my story any of times prior
to that. So for me, I was just gonna, like
my promise to myself is I'm going to walk into
this experience. I'm gonna be myself and I'm going to
try to be as authentic as possible. And when I think,
the biggest thing I'm proud of from that whole thing
was watching it back and saying, like my friends saying

(48:19):
like that's you, like that we saw it, like you,
that is you as Clark, Like that is you on TV,
And like that's the biggest compliment anyone could give me,
because like I am, sure people show up there and
you know, they try to act a certain way and
they end up shooting themselves in the foot and it
doesn't it doesn't go well. And that's why, like I
could start a whole nother thing about like when I

(48:41):
hear people say they get a bad edit or whatever,
like that's foreign to me because like I'm just and
maybe I got a good at it. I don't know,
But like what I say is like no one can
make me say or do anything. And so that was
just who I was and that's what I saw, right,
you know, So I I don't know, that's just me, Zach.

Speaker 4 (49:03):
I was obsessed with you on the show, Like I
was like this, I am obsessed with watching this guy.
And I know the relationship's over and I know that
you're not always comfortable talking about the show.

Speaker 3 (49:13):
You got me playing loose, right, you better ask now
because I'm playing loose.

Speaker 4 (49:16):
Okay, if you could just kind of put yourself back
in that situation just for a minute without knowing what
comes of it. Yeah, when Claire laughed and Tasha came in,
how did you feel?

Speaker 3 (49:29):
Well? I think, I mean, if you ask anyone for
my season, I was probably going home the next day
if Claire stayed, because there was like this comedy thing
that I find just like it didn't go well for
zact like I just had bad jokes, they weren't funny.
I kind of like unintentionally made fun of Claire in

(49:49):
a way that wasn't so nice, like my New York
and Philly kind of came out, and so like I
was pretty sure I was going home, like if there
was like and then she like runs off with Dale
and then we're sitting there for you know whatever. And
like I will say about all these humans, I love
like I've learned to love all of them, the guys,
the girl, like everywhere because I feel like there's that

(50:11):
common bond that we all share and you know, no
matter how messy it gets. So I think for me,
I was like grateful to kind of have this second opportunity,
and I was just kind of settling in, Like I
was kind of nervous and timid at the beginning, and
you know, like night want I didn't talk to Claire
and I think I had like one maybe sit down

(50:31):
with it, you know, so it was like it was
all very farn and I hadn't really watched the show,
so I didn't know the way that any of that
she was supposed to go, you know, and then Tasha
walked in. Obviously she's beautiful, and it's like this new
it was almost like this second opportunity, and at.

Speaker 5 (50:44):
That point I felt a little bit more you.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
Know, comfortable, just like it took me a moment to
settle in and and from there, like you know, it
was a it was a positive experience.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
Yeah, this show's such a unique experience, and I think,
you know, Zach, I relate like I feel like I
got a good edit then or that. You know, when
people watch it, they're like, yeah, that's the guy I
know back home is boring and as you know, simple

(51:20):
as I seemed, you know, my buddies are like, yeah,
that's you, Like we can we can watch you. And
that gave me some confidence going into it. You know,
I relate with your desire to go on the show. Also,
you know, there was a secret hope inside of me
that maybe I would have a cooler story to tell
in my life to my friends, like yea, I went
on the Bachelor at one point, or I was on
the Bachelorette at one point, Like I thought that would
bring some interest and intrigue to my life. And there

(51:43):
was also a side of me it was like, I
just want, you know, to test myself if like I
am the person that I think I am, or if
I am still charming. Because I was twenty five years old,
twenty four years old, I was two years out of
this thing for me, and so I was still trying
to figure myself out. And that's why the show is
so helpful. When Alan and all of his wisdom and

(52:07):
all on this and said, hey, I don't like yeah,
and just said I don't like you because I don't
know you, and I was like, man, you're you're hitting
someplace I don't want to hit. And then you know,
everything comes out you obviously now and I know Ashley
wants to dig in a little bit to the proposal,
uh into this, you know, and that's how I feel

(52:28):
in this.

Speaker 5 (52:28):
Moment with you guys even talking right now.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
It's like, you know where a lot like like something
actually said like made me feel comfortable talking with you
guys about this, and I think, like any podcasts I
go and it's like, yeah, I'll talk about anything, but
the show. I'm like, what is that saying about me?
You know, it's like that that that's like there's something there, right,
and I have to like I can either look at
it or or not, and like the truth is that

(52:54):
should change my life, and like I do you know,
fly that flag when I when I can, because is
it's allowed me to help a lot of people and
and have some pretty cool experiences and you know, you
take to go with them bad in any situation.

Speaker 5 (53:10):
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (53:12):
I mean, that was my question to you, is you
know obviously you are more closed off to the show.
And for me, it's such an important part of my
life and it will always be a big part of
my story because of the relationship that came from it,
the relationship that ended from it, and then my journey
to find my wife kind of offhanded through it and
all these great things that have happened me from it,
And I just wondered if you look back on your
time now with the relationship over obviously that came from

(53:35):
the show and your job now and say what has
came from your experience on the show. That That was
my question to you is when you look back now,
like how did how has it changed your life?

Speaker 3 (53:48):
I probably don't stop and think about it enough, you know,
and give it enough, give myself enough credit, you know,
Like I don't like I'm being really honest with you.
I think there's probably times where I'm like, you know,
like kind of the stuff you were talking about earlier,

(54:08):
with like the guilt and the shame, Like I don't know,
like are other guys going to respect me as someone
who went on this show?

Speaker 5 (54:14):
You know, like are other guys going to judge me?

Speaker 3 (54:16):
And like, at my core, I know that that's just
me giving my power away to some bullsh narrative that's
not true because it did take a lot of balls
to like show up there and like lay it all
on the line. And so how has my life changed?
I mean I think I think in a lot of ways,
you know, everything from like this weekend, like being out

(54:39):
with my friends who have known me for twenty years
and someone asked for a picture and they're like, dude,
this is just so crazy, Like I just don't it
doesn't because to them, it's still very like every time
it happened, like it just doesn't make sense because I'm
just Zach to them, you know, and like to like
having some unbelievable like just experiences, like the things that
I've gotten to do that I I wouldn't have otherwise

(55:01):
gotten to do. But the real way I think that
it has changed my life is a lot to do
with what we talked about today, which is I have
been able to, you know, get really comfortable telling my story.
I think I've had more people write me tell me
that I've I've changed their life or saved their life,

(55:22):
and I don't give that enough credit. And to your point,
been like, you know, I believe, like I grew up Presbyterian,
but I believe in God. My God might be a
little bit different than your God or actually, but I
believe in God, and I believe that it was meant

(55:44):
to happen for this purpose that I could get out
there and show people that there's another way to live.
And if I can do it, than anyone can you know.
That's really at the end of the day, like the
simplest answer to that question.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
Well, just yourself back in that position, like thinking about
your time on the show. For me, I just loved
watching you guys fall in love. I have been open
that I love Charity and Dutton season, but the one
that made me feel before that was yours. So there
was like a three year drought in that. Your proposal

(56:19):
was something that I'll always remember. I think it was
the last time I cried during a proposal, and I
remember this one thing that you guys kind of shared together.
You were like every other love before this, like this
is like the first real Like this is a love
above any other love I've ever experienced, and this was
you saying this is a thirty six year old guy.
So how do you look back on saying that and

(56:40):
feeling that now now that it's over.

Speaker 5 (56:44):
Yeah, it's it's a loaded question. I appreciate it. Thank
you for asking.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
You know, I meant it. I meant it at the time,
you know, I felt it at the time. And you know,
like the thing I always say is like true good
people don't always make a good relationship, you know, and
that's I think my experience there, Like for whatever reason,

(57:15):
there just was never like this. It's just never, you know,
like like in the moment, I guess to answer your question,
like in the moment, it felt, it felt real, it
felt right, It was all those things, and you know,
I wouldn't change anything. I don't live and regret. You know,
it's a very special moment in time in my life,
regardless of what happened. And I think that's I think

(57:39):
that's a full answer.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
I don't know, yeah, yeah, yeah, give me the things
that are real. It's one of the things I like
to live by, and that obviously this show, you know,
for as goofy as it is, and for as wild
as it is, and for as disrespect as it can
be fairly by the public, there are moments within it
that are real and that we you know, talk about

(58:00):
here that cross into reality, like the show come becomes
a part of reality. And I think for you, as
we watched that it was real. And I think hearing
you say yeah it was, is like not only comforting,
it's just exciting for me because it's one of the
things that we like to stand on here is Hey,
this is going to affect your life, good or bad.
If you're not yourself, it's gonna affect your life. If

(58:22):
you are yourself, you're gonna it's gonna affect your life.
If you fall in love and you're honest about it,
it's gonna affect your life. It's just gonna be a
part of you because it's a time in your life.
You're not like leaving you know the world to do this.
And so I think for me, it's exciting for you
to admit to that because a lot of people don't,

(58:44):
or a lot of people, you know, hold on to
an anger, vengeance or say, hey, like I was just
confused and it was too fast, too soon, all these things.
It's like, well, you felt it the time, and so
that shows you something.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
Yeah, I might be in the minority, like I would
never blame a producer. I would never like I'm a
big boy, Like I said what I said, I did
what I did, I meant it all like, and you know,
to your point, guys, it's like the number one question
I think I get asked with people that like meet
me and then they think they have my ear for
a second, it's like, what was it real? I'm like,

(59:15):
it's real for me, Like every moment was real, like
from sitting in between filming and like it was all real.
You know, yeah, part of a TV show, but like real.
I was there, I did it, I said it. Those
things happened like it was very real for me. So
much show that, you know. Maybe that's why I don't

(59:35):
talk about it as much. You know, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (59:37):
Yeah, Well, on a lighthearted note, another thing that you
guys could bond over is the fact that you are
like a try you do. You do triathlons, but you
do marathons. You run a ton. This guy runs a ton.
He's about to do a triathlon. This say something that
is so beyond me.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
Yeah, I'm about to do a triathlon in October a full.
No goodness, No, I'm not ready for that. My goal
is a full. Next year at thirty five will be
my first full. I've been doing sprints for years, which
are is a whole new training.

Speaker 5 (01:00:08):
I mean, you commit to a full, I'll commit to
a full with you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
This swimming scares of shit out of me, though, let's
do a full together.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
I think right here, somebody's gonna listen to this and
have a connection to a full and I want to
put it into my life, bad knees and all, I
want to put it into my life.

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
If you're in, I'm in. I got buddies that are
training form now. It's insane.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
But yeah, does running and recovery have a lot to
do with each other.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
I think the running community is very similar to the
recovery community, and that is just a group of really
good people kind of coming together around a common bond.
And you know, they're just like my people, like the
running community are just the nicest, kindest people. I think.

(01:00:52):
For me, from a mental health perspective, running, I would
be terrified if I ever got hurt because there are many, many,
many days where you know, the prayers not work and
the meditation isn't working, like something's just off, and I
go off for a run to clear the mind because
that is just a tool that I picked up over
the years, and it's really really helped me. Like the

(01:01:16):
cheesy saying I think is like move a muscle, change
of thought, but that works for me for real, you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
Know, Yeah, for me, it's never been you know, I
have friends and people that know who have had some
type of mental health or addiction. Things happen in their life,
and you know, exercise is a good way for them
to kind of cope with it. For me, it's never
been a coping mechanism. Honestly, why I exercise every day

(01:01:42):
is because at thirty four years old and at twenty
four years old, I want to be in the better
shape next year than I was this year, just so
I can function and be like kind of like I
have a big enough ego where I'm like, I just
I want to be in better shape next year that
I was this year. I'm not allowing this to catch
up with me. So that's more of my drive, is
like I feel better about myself. But it's never those

(01:02:04):
two things haven't ever really related with me, and one
wasn't a response to the other.

Speaker 3 (01:02:10):
Actually, are you a runner? Are you a runner?

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
I'm not.

Speaker 4 (01:02:12):
I wish I could be an exerciser. I just am not.
I haven't done it since before my son was born.
I was in the best shape of my life, working
out like four to five times a week, and it
just dropped off after that. I feel like he himself
as like a thirty pound weight is enough exercise for
me around the house all day.

Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
That might be my stock answer, I really wish I
could be an exerciser.

Speaker 4 (01:02:35):
But you guys are honestly inspiring me. I'm trying to
I'm feeling the way that I did in my body
after a workout. It is a good feeling. I'm going
to totally switch the topic right now because i know
we have to wrap up, but I think this is
a really important note to hit on and then I'm
going to let Ben and you have your final moment.

(01:02:57):
Narcan is something that is behind you now and something
that is so important these days. As it well, you
can tell the people what it does and what do
you think about, like people just carrying it even if
they're like not at all in the environments in which
the fentanyl would be present.

Speaker 5 (01:03:15):
Yeah, yeah, I think the easiest.

Speaker 3 (01:03:18):
So the real quick is Narkhan is an overdose reversal drug,
So if someone is overdosing, you spray it up their
nose and it helps reverse effects of an overdose and
can literally save a life. I've personally witnessed and know
people that are alive because of because of Narkan and
the reason it's out in front more is one It's

(01:03:39):
going to be over the counter starting in September, which
is a huge, huge, huge twin just means you can
walk into a pharmacy and buy it. Two, we lost
over seventy thousand people last year to opiate related overdoses
and over one hundred thousand people to overdoses in general,
so it's clearly affecting country. And Three with fentanyl out

(01:04:02):
on the streets, Fentanyl, as I described earlier, is a
synthetic opiate, so it's man made. It's fifty times stronger
than any other opiate you're going to find out there,
and literally, like as salt pebble, could send someone into
an overdose. And what's happening is that fentanyl is being
put into not just fake pills, but into marijuana, into cocaine,

(01:04:23):
into drugs that you know, you show up as a
college freshman and you see your first line of cocaine
like I did, and you do that, there's a chance
that could be leased with ventanyl. So it's not just
about substance use disorder, it's about just living in the world. Yeah,
I mean, like, so the easiest way for me to
explain it to your question about like, hey, do you

(01:04:44):
just carry this around? I would say that most homes
in America have a fire extinguisher, right, and I looked
it up.

Speaker 5 (01:04:53):
So I'm going to do a real on this because
I think it's genius.

Speaker 3 (01:04:55):
But I looked it up and there's like, you know,
there were like three thousand residential fire deaths last year
in America, which is like a big number still and
like scary, but every home in America has a fire
extinguish for everyone knows what that is. I just gave
the numbers about overdose, right, one hundred thousand, and a
lot of people don't even know what narcan is. So yes,

(01:05:16):
you should have it. Yes you should carry it around.
If you need a way to find it or access it,
you can certainly right me, It's a huge passion of
mine just because I know it's probably going to get
better before it gets worse. But that's my that's my
stick on narcan for right now.

Speaker 4 (01:05:35):
Quick follow up because I'm thinking for the audience right now.
I'm obviously a huge proponent of it, but I think
that there's probably people wondering, well, if there is an
overdose rescued drug, isn't that just gonna encourage people to
just continue with their addiction further?

Speaker 3 (01:05:55):
You can't treat people that are dead. Good answer, So
keep them alive and get good answer, you know, show
them some love and hopefully they can they can find it.
I mean that's why, you know, we could do a
whole other episode on the multiple pathways to recovery and
harm reduction versus like for me like total abstinence to

(01:06:17):
the guy sitting next to me that you know, like
Ben might have had a pill problem and it's still
able to have a couple of beers on a Saturday
night like there's and they're all fine, right, They're all
fine as long as you're able to look at it
with an open mind and love one another.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
So well, buddy, thanks for coming on, stay in touch. Yeah,
thanks for sharing this. You know, there's a few key
points I want to point out. One, it's beautiful hearing
it too, is you know, for you not to overdramatize, uh,
your path, because I think it happened so often and

(01:06:51):
I think that's uh, it can be dangerous for multiple levels.
One family hearing it to the person going through it,
like the over roumatization of it can make it feel
a lot like just like a lot more chaotic than
maybe it is. And then the other point I want
to point out is just the consistency and coming to

(01:07:12):
somebody with love and compassion and not always knowing how
to do it well, but coming to them with love
and compassion. And it's going to save many lives. And
I hope this podcast and the people listening hear this
and they say, hey, we always love Zach. We watched
him on television like Ashley did. We fell in love
with Zach, and we fell in love with his story.

(01:07:33):
And yes, this was a piece of history on the show,
but it wasn't why we fell in love with him.
We fell in love with him because who he is.
He's a good looking dude, he's charming, he's nice. You know,
he was open, he was honest, he was vulnerable, all
of these things. But then we respect Zach for what
he's doing now, what he did before. And I do
I believe when you do this stuff people listening. And

(01:07:55):
as you said at the beginning, and this we'll close with,
if one person, one's person's life is saved because or change,
let's not say saved, change for the better, because listening
to this episode, it's all been worth it, and it's
been worth it to do for the last eight years.
Then outside of everything else. So, Zach Clark, thanks for
coming on, thanks for being honest, thanks for talking to us.

(01:08:16):
We appreciate it. We'll talk to you again soon.

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
Thanks, guys, and I can help you in any way.
Let me know. It's great to see you and such
a pleasure.

Speaker 4 (01:08:23):
Thank you so much for giving us your time.

Speaker 5 (01:08:24):
Peace, Bye bye.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
This has been a important, incredible, fantastic, honest, vulnerable, interesting
conversation with Zach Clark. It's the off season here at
Thomas Famous Podcast, but doesn't mean we're gonna be away.
We'll be back putting out new episodes of new content
for all of you and for us until The Golden

(01:08:49):
Bachelor starts and Bachelor in Paradise starts. So until next time,
I've been Ben, I've been Ashley.

Speaker 4 (01:08:56):
Bye guys.

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
Follow the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast on
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