August 29, 2025 • 43 mins
Courtney Robertson got engaged to Ben Flajnik at the end of his season, but along the way… she became an infamous Bachelor Nation villain.
We pull back the curtain and hear about Courtney’s relationship with producers, what happened with Ben RIGHT before she met her now-husband, and of course… the skinny dipping. Plus, Courtney gives her honest opinion on a celebrity who was once linked to her ex-fiancé.
Courtney Robertson is here to help us understand that sometimes… roses are red flags.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ben Higgins, and Ashley I bring you Infamous. Sometimes roses
are red flags. Hey everyone, welcome back to the almost
of this podcast. Today is another episode of Infamous and
we're doing this. This is maybe the most infamous person
that's ever been on the show, Courtney Robertson. Courtney, it's
(00:21):
you and me today. We're gonna have a little girl
chat about your skinny dipping, about you possibly cheating on Ben,
all the tabloid covers that you were on. We are
so excited to have you on to the long time
Almost Famous listeners. Courtney, as you guys know, has been
on the show like I feel like once a year
or so. So of course we have covered some of
(00:42):
this before, but we wanted to get even deeper on
the past with you.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Wow, I love it. We're hot out the gate. Love
skinny Dipping, Still skinny Dip to this day. I always
love to join you. I think Ben's off gallivanting or.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
He's like just getting back from Italy's amazing that he
had his break I had my break up before him.
So yeah, coot, let's go all the way back to
twenty eleven. Were you a fan of the show before
you auditioned you know.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I wasn't a major Bachelor fan, but I watched loosely
like I saw like I saw Ben's finale, and that's
when the night that I signed up because obviously Ashley
didn't pick him and I had been dating in LA
and I was like, oh, this guy's cute, he's a
wine maker, he's ready to get married. And but I
(01:32):
had seen a little bit of like Ali Fedotowski season,
but just loosely watched. I wasn't like a you know, super.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Fan, okay, and then how did you audition?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So that night I applied the night of Ben and
Ashley Aberts finale. I had just gone through a recent
breakup and my sister was a massive fan, like she
did viewing parties. So I went online. I submitted like
a couple modeling photos. They wanted like a video, and
I was like, you know, I had some wine, I
was going or a breakup, and I was like, let's
just see. I almost like forgot that. I applied and
(02:05):
they called me, like I want to say, like two
days later. And I lived in Santa Monica at the time.
Their offices NCK was like right down the street, so
they're like, can you come in. I was like, whoa,
this is like happening quick.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Okay, So then did you just get to be a
shoe in? Would they meet you? And they're They're like,
you're in.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Pretty much yeah, But I was like very hesitant. I
was like, wow, this is like I just thought it
would be like fun to do apply online. And my
whole thing was, you know, it could have been Ben
or the other guy I think his name was Ryan,
the solar energy guy. And I was like very particular,
like I'm signing up to meet Ben, which I don't
think a lot of people know, and they couldn't really
(02:47):
tell me if it was him. I think he was
in talks or whatnot. But I actually backed out and
it was I had signed the contracts, I had done
all the psychic val all that stuff. I was like,
this is why, like I don't know if I want
to go through with this. And I backed out. And
then they called me the next day and they said,
we just want to let you know. We're not telling
(03:08):
a lot of people this, but it is going to
be Ben, okay.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
And then then you were like all right, I'm back
on pretty much.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
They said just go meet him night one. We think
you two are really going to hit it off? If
you don't, you can leave Night one like, no harm,
no foul. Little did I know? You can't just leave?
It's not it's not And I didn't want to because
once I met him, I was like, Oh, he's he
We really had like a spark.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Did you guys the forest in Prison Rows?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
No, Lindsay Cox did.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
She was the runner up.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
I hate to say that.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, it's a weird term for this show.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, she came riding in on the horse. I mean
who of course he gave her the first impression Rose,
but she was also really great.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
First, you had hesitance. Why why were you so hesitant?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
You know, I didn't watch a ton of reality TV,
and you know I had dated a variety of actors
and I had a long term relief the.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Drink, which you document in your book.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Jesse Metcalf and you we're on and off for a
long time.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
You had a type dark hair, olive skin, light eyes.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Oh yeah, dark hair, light eyes. I think Ben was
the first brown eyed guy I'd ever dated. Actually, fun fact,
but I actually hung out with Adrian before I left
for filming, and like, I was just kind of single
and I had seen Jesse again, but he was still
kind of pulling his same shenanigans, and I called him
to tell him I was doing the show. He was
not happy, but I just was like, what I'm doing
(04:33):
isn't working. Like I was twenty turning twenty eight, I
was starting to really think about wanting a family, and
I just thought, why not, let's mix it up. I
was having the best modeling career year of my life,
and I had a anyway, I won't bore you with
those details, but I just wanted to try something new,
and little did I know that it would completely change.
(04:55):
Like the trajectory of my life.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
With Jesse Metcalf, where you see it reason enough that
you had to tell him? Or is it just kind
of a courtesy?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
No? Not serious?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah at all?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I meant no, no at point. I mean, he took
me to the Emmys. We had been on and off
for years, Okay, you know he Yeah, as far as
far as that goes, I was more of a courtesy
because he was in the public eye and I knew
that there were pictures of us online and when you
do those questionnaires they make you write your ex's names down.
(05:30):
I specifically left him out like I don't want you know,
but when I called him to tell him I was
doing it, Like we had hung out a few times
in the in the recent months, and he's like, Courtney,
don't do it. Can I come over? This guy's gonna
pick you.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
And yeah, he didn't want you to do it because
he didn't want you to get picked and then he
would have had like to deal with the emotion of it.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Maybe, I mean, but I was so sick of like
we had been hanging out and then like at the time,
I think it was TMZ or I forget the news site,
Like we had hung out and like things were going
really well, he showed up at my gym. I lived
in San Monica. He was in Beverly Hills and he's like, ah,
like I've been hoping to run into you. I'm like,
you're literally at my gym like he had just gone
(06:15):
like was going through a breakup. Like I mean, like
there was like some connection there that we did for
a long time. And and then like two days later,
he's on DMZ like making out with some girl in
Venice Beach and I was like, that's it, Like I
can't get jerked around by this guy. Anymore. Yeah, So
I was like, this guy looks normal, he's a wine maker.
(06:36):
I love wine. Hey, why not, like, let's try something new?
And you know we did. I mean we were together
for a year, we really hit it off. But I
I'm glad I did it. I think that's the question
I get asked the most is like, do you regret
doing the show after we broke up? And I didn't
anticipate how bad the backlash would be and even just
(06:57):
the skinny dipping and being slush At the time, I
definitely regretted it. I was like, man, like I lost
my privacy. But now at forty two, I'm so glad
I did it. I'm married with three kids, life is
pretty normal.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
So you come across to me and always have as
not always have on the show, but in person as
a girl's girl, you're very easy to talk to. You're
just like truly sweet, and on the show you couldn't be.
You couldn't have been further from as far as what
we saw on TV. What was going on, just like
(07:34):
starting at week one with you and the other women,
was their tension? Did you think that you had villainous behavior?
Paint a picture of how it was wall filming versus
how it was when you watched it back.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
So night one was wild. It's like you're filming till
four am. I'm like, let me just get there, let
me see if I like him. I asked production if
I could be the first or last out at the
because I knew in casting that that's important. You don't
want to get lost in the shuffle. So I was
the last out of the limo. They when they aired it,
it didn't play like that.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
They didn't.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
They just kind of threw me in the middle. So
I got into the house a little bit later and
I walk in and I like, look at everybody's sitting there.
And I come in and I instantly like felt like
I could kind of read the room just from just
who I am. But I remember talking to specifically one girl,
Casey B who was at the end, who was the
(08:33):
one that famously came back in Switzerland, and was like, right,
you know, they always at that point in time, they
used to do that a lot. And I just was
like trying to make conversation with people, and you have
producers like grabbing you, like, oh, there's playing soccer out front,
like go do this, And I was just like trying
to wrap my brain around it. Hydrate up, eat, you know,
(08:53):
just stay calm in the setting. And I talked to
her and I said, so, what do you do for work?
And She's like, I'm not gonna tell you that. Like
she actually like there were girls that wouldn't even talk
to me, and so I just like, I'm like first
impressions and a couple of people rubbed me the wrong way.
I instantly bonded with Casey Steamer. We are still best
(09:15):
friends to this day. She tried to stick up for
me at the Women Tell All, but it just it
happened very quickly, and I kind of know where it turned.
We didn't stay in the mansion. We went to Sonoma,
and it happened because I got the second one on
one date. And once I got that one on one date,
it just everything shifted in the house and I heard
(09:39):
them talking about me. Producers were telling me they were
talking badly about me. Uh And something that wasn't shown
is Lindsay Cox and I like we actually really got
along really well. And there was a moment where it
was like late at night and I was tired and
I kind of like snipped at her and I woke
up in the morning and I pulled her aside and
I was like, I'm so sorry, Like I was exhausted
(10:00):
last night. So there was just I don't know if
I'm answering this properly, but are It was like it
was just a lot to navigate, and especially when people
off camera, like I didn't like the way they treated
producers but a lawn and who you know. Obviously he
always said like, your personality doesn't really translate on this show. Okay,
(10:23):
So I don't know. I do know that I was sassy.
I went into it like, Okay, now I really like him,
and now there's twenty girls here and I have to
just kind of like go through this.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
So when you were shooting, did you know you're gonna
be the villain? Pretty much?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Not at all?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Oh really, even though Alann would have said stuff like
that and the girls were talking about you, that.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Was more towards the end, and that's when I started
catching on, like, oh my gosh, there's a narrative here,
like I might have said winning once after like this thing.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Because your big thing was that, like you kind of
took Charlie Sheen's at the time of the time.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, yeah, skinny diipping and I was like on a
high and it felt so good and yeah, but yeah, no,
it just it was an awkward thing to go through
and there were times where I almost left for sure.
I was like, I don't know if this is worth it.
When they had Sean Tell show up, I was like,
this is crazy, Like what did I get myself into?
But I watched the first episode. I had a viewing party.
(11:21):
I had friends over and they showed my like package,
my intro, and that was the first time that I thought,
oh boy, I'm in trouble. It looks like they're going
to make me the villain.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
This is like a little bit of an outdated type
of comment. I suppose. Obviously you get cast on the Bachelor.
Everybody's pretty. You were model pretty. You were like a
model that was working. Do you think that you carried yourself?
First off, I mean there could have there. I was
assuming there was a lot of feelings of being threatened
(11:54):
just because you're so stunning. And secondly, you probably carred
yourself with confidence, just like knowing that you have a look,
you know.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I I mean the girls would say things to me like, oh,
she's a model. They called me the model and this
and that I kind of wish because I did have
my real estate license at the time. I didn't lead
with that because it didn't do me any favors whatsoever.
But and that's why I was like trying to talk
to people, like what do you do? Connect and like
(12:21):
that's how you connect with people, and people weren't trying
to get to know me, and I was just like, Okay, well,
this is just a weird environment. Like I'm going to
deal with that. But I went into it, like you know,
I've been on sets I've been modeling.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
For since I was suitable environment.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, Like my producer that I worked with was always laughing,
like I had like my makeup bag on the side,
like you know, like I was constantly touching myself up
because you're filming constantly. And I don't know if you
ever experienced that, Ashley, but you know you could, like
some people look pretty bad at them in the night
because I have a little.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Like modeling little vag too, you know, and because they
don't let you carry around behind the plant. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, but yeah, I definitely think I had the confidence,
especially more so back then, because I really felt like
I had nothing to lose. Like I was like, I
can just go back to life and let's see if
this works out. But I've always been pretty competitive and
always my mom was always like be a leader, not
a follower. And as soon as the girls started like
saying things to me, whether it be on or off camera,
(13:31):
I really kind of tried to stick up for myself,
and then I realized that wasn't working. It was just
it was just a mess.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Let's talk about the skinny dipping. When did that happen?
Was at mid season?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Oh, the skinny dipping happened in Puerto Rico. That was
probably about mid season. It was the second to last
location before overnights. Okay, I'm sorry hometowns. And he knew
that was going to happen. I think that that's the
common misconception is he acts so surprised when.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Because they were like, she might want to do something
fun with you in the water. He knew.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
We talked about it the night before and the way
it aired and like that was like the promo on
Good Morning America, and but we had talked about it
at the end of a group date the night before
in Puerto Rico, but nobody knew until that aired. The
girls didn't know. Like I made it very clear that like,
if I was going to do that, I didn't want
(14:26):
the girls to know because that would have just made
it so much worse for me. So I stole a
little bit of time and out there he told me like,
it's you. Yeah, it's you know. We didn't have mics on.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
The best place to say anything on the show is
out in the ocean because they can't boom you.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And they were like, come on in. They kept trying
to get us, and We're like, we're not coming in.
You know. It was like probably the most fun I
had on the show. Looking back, I probably would probably
would do it again, but I didn't realize in the
moment that it would be so controversial.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Did you guys have sex out there?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
It was like a little bit of this, a little
bit of that.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
That's what I thought of it.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
The waves were pretty there was a little bit of
a lot of waves going on, and but yeah, I
mean I got to, you know, kind of.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Her the car. Yeah yeah, okay, When so you knew
that it was gonna be you, then, how did that
make you feel the entire rest of the season.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Confident?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah? So probably even more villainous.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And also so the drama on my season was this
girl Emily, who went to him like location three and
was like, she's not the same as you. She just
she They held her right where we were talking, and
so I could see why she was triggered that night.
Maybe she had a little booze. We were kissing and
we were talking, and so they had her like waiting
to talk to him next, and so I think that's
(15:53):
what set her off. And then she went and talked
to him, and she's like, we don't we don't think
she spoke for the everybody. I guess, like, we don't
think that she's the same way around you as she is.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
That's right, that narrative.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
So that was like the where the everything shifted and
she was trying to rally everybody and people were like
we like her. It was like who do we? And
then before the week of the skinny dipping, she had
done it again, Like he kept saying like, hey, just
knock it off, like let me deal with that, and
she kept going to him and like every time she
like got time with him, she would talk badly about me,
(16:27):
which I think is so bad on any reality show
when you're trying to connect with the lead. Yeah, and
out there. I just said, I just want you to
know I don't know what she's saying, but I can't
stand her and she has been pretty nasty to me
and I want her gone.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
That's awesome. That was you. That was that was you
to him?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah.
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Speaker 1 (18:30):
What was your relationship with production because you made a
comment about what Alan told you. You said that you
didn't like it when girls would treat them badly. How
did you What was your relationship with.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I left and I had a couple producers that I
had it out with where I felt like tricked and
I said, like I can't work with that person. Like
specifically in Panama, they said Ben's waiting for you in
the pool. Go get you have to get your swimsuit
on it. This girl and I go and I get
in the pool and I'm like, I'm literally walking behind
(19:04):
him having one on time with Jamie Otis, who is
now married at first sight, but I was like, tricks.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Was that the kiss moment with them?
Speaker 2 (19:14):
It was that night they began to.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Kiss moment because she said like you don't kiss well
or something like that, which is so funny.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, and she like ripped, well, I have had her on.
She's like, I didn't rip my dress, but the dress
but they put that in. But little things like that
where I was just like, ah, we just don't jive,
or you know, they're trying to get me to say
winning again or this and that. But I had really
good relationships with like I don't know if you want
me to say names, but like Bennett alone, Pete's Scletar,
(19:41):
it was a different.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
The good ones. The good ones so like you would
have fun with them in the interview room. Yes, I
so much of your quote villainous behavior was in the
interview room because you were probably just like having a
good time. This is why I also.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Hated doing the itms they constantly were pulling. I mean
I would say, what do you want me to say?
I got to the point where it's like question torture,
Like you're asking me the same question three different ways,
like what do you want me to say? And I'll
just put it in my own words?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Interesting, Okay, Yeah, But.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I mean I'm still good friends. Like I just was
reaching out to a lawn recently. I'm actually getting ready
to go film another show and I was picking his
brain about it. But I trust him, I really do we.
I mean we lived across the street from each other
for a couple of years and had a really deep bond.
But after the show, I had that like what most
(20:36):
contestants have where it's like it's airing and you're like,
this isn't how I thought it would be betrayed, And
I think for me it's different because I was engaged
to him and people saw that we had a real
connection and it was affecting our relationship while it was
airing out in real time. Alan was a huge help
trying to talk to Ben, trying to be like, hey,
(20:58):
like you know her, but like it goes more to
the editing.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yes, yes, So what would you well, I want to
talk about You're engagement first. So you wore this amazing
black dress with the long black gloves, Ashley, would you
call that amazing? See? Actually I would call that amazing
because it because it was so much different than normal.
Do you think that they were trying to play into
your villainous character.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I think they dressed me like Corella de Ville.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Okay, that's what I mean, but like, also, you looked
so freaking bomb.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
I was like, more, it was freezing in Switzerland where
we were staying in Sarmott, but they helicoptered me in
on top of like so you know, the matta horn
was in the background. But it was like actually hot
that day. But that's why I had these black leather
gloves on that just went upstairs and they had put
me in this like white cape. And had I known,
(21:53):
I even went to Carrie Fetman the Silas and I
was like.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Who only picks out your last dress? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I walked into the room. I know. I went first
and there were like four dresses on a bed and
I walked in. I go, Lindsay's gonna pick that one.
It was navy blue, like poofy or something. I was like,
that was the best one for me, the black one
out of all. But I was like, is this it? Like?
Had I known, I would have probably packed, But I
(22:20):
didn't know. I thought I might leave night one and
he's like, I'm like, can you go to Paris and dress?
Speaker 1 (22:28):
And the answer no, oh no, I don't know for
the girl they know they're winning. I'm not sure how
far they go for outfits. So obviously that was kind
of your outfit because it went along with your darker character.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, they were dressing me like and I've since heard
and no offensive like Alan or whoever, that they were
like feeding like this black widow and you know this
that narrative to the other girls. And you know, so
they would tell me what the other girls were saying
about me too, and that's something that I don't think
a lot of people know as well as it was
just a pressure cooker. So but you know, I did
(23:11):
ask for a gold ring, and in overnights he did
say to me like I'm madly in love with you.
He didn't say I'm going to propose to you, but
he was like, I'm in love with you, and like
I didn't have a shadow of a doubt that he
wasn't gonna propose.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Did it feel like love to you or did it
feel like lust? Because I think of him lusting after you,
and I don't even know what you would have felt
for him.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, I think Ben is charming. He's charming, and I
think that I got to see. I don't think he
was accurate, accurately portrayed on the show. Like he's a
lot more fun than I think what they showed, and
I know he felt that way. But I remember towards
the end of filming one of the EPs, a female
was like, would you be the next Bachelor if he
doesn't pick you? And this is like right before the finale,
(23:59):
and I kind of threw me like what, Yeah, Like
I can't say yes because what if they tell him that,
like she's here to do that? And I was never
a thought in my mind because I had feelings at
that point in time. And I will say that the
whole thing is a fairy tale. I mean, you're we're
in Switzerland, we're going on dates, we're in helicopters, we're
flying over the Matterhorn. Like all that stuff helps for sure,
(24:23):
and I think it's almost I hate to say trauma bonding,
but I think once the camera stopped rolling and we
had a lot of fun in those happy couple months,
I think that was when the cracks started seeping in
and the show was starting to air yeah, but we
really tried to make it work for a year. I
said to him, we really owe it to ourselves, Like
we just went through this like crazy thing, and we
(24:44):
owe it to ourselves. I think we would regret not
trying to make it work in the real world. And
I do think the fame affected him. I think that.
You know, he had been dating, like Jennifer Love Hewittt.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah, I know, so we've heard so before you he
left for filming The Bachelor. Yeah, so in between his
two seasons, well, I.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Was meeting up with Adrian telling him I'm going on
The Bachelor. He's like, what's that show about? He was
dating Jennifer Love Hewittt. She allegedly I offered him the
same amount of money. He had already signed the contract
to do the show, and he wanted to do the show, and.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
He wanted to do the show more than continue to
date Jennifer Love You, and.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
He said on other podcasts like maybe I should have
just done that, which is always it's kind of sucks
to hear those things because it's like we really, like
he knew my family, like we had a real relationship.
He reached out to me about the year before I
met my husband. Most people don't know this, and he
was watching our season back over the holidays that we
rendezvous and we really thought about maybe trying again. And
(25:52):
this was like years later after my book came out.
He didn't talk to me. He was so pissed and
we really kind of just put a bow on that reallylationship.
And he's married now. I'm obviously married with three kids.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
The summer before you met your husband, you had to
fling again with Ben.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yeah, we met up for New Year's and we actually
watched Ari's season together. I think no, I think it
was his first premiere, and I remember I told Ari.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah, well, we all know that you had a relationship
with Ari too, and I know that you finding out
that Ari was going to be the bachelor was not
an easy thing for you. Did you did you come
together in that trauma bond? Well?
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I almost wondered if he reached out to me because
he kind of realized, like I don't, I don't know,
but like that that maybe that was like that's not
a thing for them, because like we had done, like
we were like good friends, like we had posted photos
together and you and Hari. Yeah, and then he was
announced as the Bachelor. We ended up watching his like
night one together, and obviously Ari was already back and
(26:54):
I was like, guess who I'm meeting up with in
Santa Barbara and he's like, please don't say Ben. I'm like, yeah,
so kind of good tea there, but I mean and
then yeah, Ben and I he was in Sonoma still
and he was saying about moving to New York, and
you know, Ben and I talked about moving to New
York together. This is like, wow, blasts from the past.
(27:15):
We spent time there together and in Connecticut. So yeah,
I'm glad that we kind of put a bow on it.
And now now, like I still talk to his sister
once in a while, like her and I were super close,
and I just you know, at the end of the day,
you know, it's so funny to like think about like
the drama with the girls, and you know, it's just
(27:38):
it is what it is. But I'm glad that Ben
and I cleared the air and were friendly and to
each their own.
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Speaker 7 (29:00):
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TV's most unforgettable moments, we know a thing or two
about living life out loud. We're taking you behind the
scenes in our new podcast Between Us with Me Heather
to Brow and.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
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Speaker 4 (29:14):
Between Us isn't about perfect lighting or curated Instagram grids.
Speaker 7 (29:18):
It's the unfiltered, behind closed doors conversations you wish you
could eavesdrop on equal parts smart, funny, and a little
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Speaker 4 (29:26):
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the headlines, the trends, and the cultural moments everyone's texting about.
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Speaker 1 (30:32):
What was tabloid life back then? I was reading an
old Reddit threat before having you on, and some people
in there were like, I mean, the girls today don't
even know about it was, how bad it was because
tabloids aren't as much of a thing anymore, because we
have social media and social media as it's own tabloid,
and at least with that you're able to be like, hey,
(30:55):
getting on because there's this picture coming around about me,
and like there's a more ongoing narrative. But like, you're
so out of control of your public narrative when it's
a tabloid situation. So what was it like literally being
at CBS in the grocery store and seeing like a
fake report on the cover of us legally, Because I think,
like to some degree that has got to be that's
(31:18):
just got to be more difficult, right because one there's
no control and two like it's in your face wherever
you go. I guess that's the same as social media,
but there's something about being printed that just feels way
more surreal.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, the media was not kind to me, and they
were reaching out to my ex boyfriend of seven years
and hounding anybody from high school that knew me, and
an ex boyfriend of mine have two years sold a
story on me for twenty thousand dollars. I think me
personally the false stories because they're headlines. Like, you know,
(31:54):
I know what's true. It's my life. But now people
think these things of me. They want the headlines, they
want the clickbait, like you know, sexual seduction mayn eater.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
The most hated woman on TV. That's in front of
my face right now.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Oh all of them. I mean National Inquirer was really
bad POP, but a lot of it. They pulled modeling photos,
but paparazzi was hounding me. I did not anticipate that.
I had it for about two months POP. Four different paparazzis.
Every morning. If I went to the gym, they were
outside my door. I knew them by name. They followed
(32:30):
me everywhere I went. That was what was really hard,
is that feeling of like, oh my gosh, now I
have to think about what I look like. And on
top of it, I was dealing with like kind of
a rocky relationship at the time, and Ben had gotten
me a diamond band. He's like, they took your ring away,
so I want you to have this diamond band to wear.
(32:50):
And they're like, okay, you can wear it, but you
have to wear it on your right hand. And I
just got to the point where I was like so
mad at the show, mad at everybody. I just started
wearing it on my left hand because I'm like, they
want something. But for me, it was like the trickle down,
Like it was really hard for me to navigate the
false stories, like like there was no filtering. It was
(33:11):
like she wore white to my wedding, like like these
like most bogus stories on me, and I'm like, oh,
like it's just like like the fake news was the
hardest because I didn't have a platform, and the women
coming off the show back then, they would let them
do the media rounds and as soon as they got
voted off, and they were all just trashing me because
(33:35):
also the show was airing, so they were getting gassed up, right, yeah,
like they're seeing what I'm saying in my itms, And
I think the worst thing that they said about me
was like she just sleeps all the time, very alla
carinne Olympios. I'm like, yeah, I was exhausted and I
didn't want to be around anybody. The only time they
weren't you weren't miked up is they were like, I
(33:56):
need to take a nap. But yeah, that was really hard.
And then my mom was got really sick at the time,
and that that was what everything shifted for me, is
I had no help in the media or media coaching.
And I got a call that was like, your mom's
going to be on the cover of US weekly, like
(34:16):
the sidebar, and I called yeah, and it was like
personal stuff, and I called I think a lawn and
then like the higher ups and I said, this is
like my choice to go on the show, like now
it's like affecting my family. And at that point in time,
Ben and I weren't talking very much, like he didn't
really see how bad that time was in my life
(34:38):
and how.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Even though you guys are still technically together, it was
just a strain point.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yeah, and I felt like I had to be strong
and like kind of like act like everything was okay.
And I was like I have like he knew the
paparazzi was there every day, and he's like Oh, I
saw you at the farmer's market and you spilled your
tomatoes like he thought it was like funny, and like,
this is like hard for me. So I just remember
I was on the cover of US Weekly for about
four weeks in a row, and then I hate to
(35:06):
say it, but Whitney Houston Rip passed away and then
I got one week off. No way, yeah, yeah, I
got one week off, and then it just fired right
back up.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Cordney. This is a wild to think back to think
that The Bachelor was such a big deal back then
that you would just get cover after cover.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
I mean, now I can look back, but at the time,
I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so depressed. This
is like yeah, and my mom's sick, and like I
just was like my family, Like I need to protect
the family, Like I don't care about him. He's being
kind of shitty to me, like this isn't what I want.
And then I was also kind of embarrassed because like
I think about Jesse and like, what's he thinking about this?
(35:51):
And my ex was getting hounded and he was like
so supportive and he had a hard time with me
doing the show. I actually saw him before I went
for filming. So anyway, I feel I feel like we
might need to do a part two because.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
I know the time click on and I'm like, wait
a second, we need a part two here for sure.
Before I let you leave for this part. Because I'm
serious about having a part two, you must know for
a fact whether Ben Flannik actually did it. Chris Jenner,
(36:26):
I mean, I mean, I've seen her face right now.
She's giving us the old fashioned Courtney face.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I talked to him about it when we were in
Santa Barbara and he said no, but he said I
know him pretty well. I mean, those cheating photos came out.
He was never gonna. I'm like, your hand's on your butt,
like it looks like you're kissing. That was another part
of our story that played out after the Final Rose.
(36:51):
But I think if he did, he'll take it to
the grave. And I remember messaging his sister at the
time saying, like, my sources are telling me that Chris
Jenner is planning these stories, and you got to tell
your brother that, you know, because we weren't on good terms,
and you know, Chris Jenner could rule the world with me, dya.
(37:12):
But he's like, yeah, like you know, we went to
Kanye West, and he talked to me about meeting the
sisters and all that.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
When the smoke there's fire. They didn't just hang out.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
I mean they were at Joe Joe Francis's place, and
I if he didn't tell me, but I one hundred
percent think there was some smoochie pooches.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I think she was like.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
She's a big Bachelor fan or she was at the time, yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Bachelor fan. And I think that she was wanting whether
anything happened with them between physically. He didn't admit that
to me, but I think that she was planting that
seat like I think she liked she had just broken
up or divorced Caitlin Jenner wild and I think that
that was the narrative she wanted. I mean, Chris Jenner
(37:57):
is smart. You don't take Ben Flanneck shopping at Niema,
you don't take him to a Kanye West concert. Yeah,
but I don't think that he plugged into the narrative,
like he was like going to the media being like
nothing's going on. I'm like, oh, And then as soon
as he started like pushing back like he was out.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Yeah, thanks for that insight right there.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
But if I had to guess, I'm sure. I mean,
she's a babe.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I know none of us would be judging him at
all for the age gap there.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
But he also with that said, though he's married now,
I suspect he's probably going to start a family soon.
I could see him being one of those that's like, surprise,
we had a baby. That's kind of what he did
with his marriage, and I'm really happy for him. I
you know, I you know, put a bow on that
part chapter of my life, and who knows, maybe ten
years from now we can look back and look. I mean,
(38:49):
it's a weird thing to go through and to just
kind of look back at it fondly.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I want to end with this for now. You wrote
you were the First. I want to say that You
Were the First Bachelor book, and one that I have
repeatedly said in this podcast helped educate me going into
the show. I read it on the way to casting
weekend in LA and it prepared me for so many
steps along the way. And it is such a good read.
(39:16):
You guys, if you are a Bachelor fan and you
know you've experimented with the book books before, this is
the book. This is the bachelor book, it's called I
Didn't come here to make Friends. Confessions of a Reality
show villain. When you wrote that book and then all
the spin off shows started happening, Bachelor Pad, Bachelor in Paradise,
(39:37):
there must have been some inquiry to have you on them,
Was there not? Or was it weird because you had
written such a tell all book.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
So great question, Ashley. When I went to write my book,
I had to jump through so many hoops. I got
the call like, we're getting ready to send you a
cease and desist.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
I was like, to be honest, there's a lot of
seas and desist written all of that book.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
It.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, you know, I mean it's it's got the stuff
in it.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
I found a way to write it where it didn't
really break the contract in a way because that contract
takes away all of your human rights. And I probably
I'm not a suwy person or sooe happy, but I
probably like could have gone at them at some point.
I think they knew that for defamation or like they
said that the skinny dipping thing would be blurred and
(40:28):
the promo ran on Good Morning America and there were
no blurboxes. I'm literally texting along like this is not okay,
like and it's already out there, like people slowed it down.
But as far as the book goes, I said to
my contacts, like, if you can help me get this
done and push this along, I'll do whatever show you want.
I'll do your next show. And that just so happened
(40:50):
to be Bachelor in Paradise, and so I kind of
negotiated with them.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
You negotiate with them to do it.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Yeah, So I negotiated if they could help me get
my book done, that I would do their next show,
which was Paradise. And so I was in talks to
do that and all of that, and then at the
end of the day, they realized with the book coming
out that they didn't want contestants to feel uncomfortable around me,
thinking that they'd be in fear of me writing another book.
(41:21):
So it was a conflict of interest, which was great
for me because I didn't want to do it. That
was just kind of like my like show of faith,
like I'm gonna you know, I'm not gonna bat. I
didn't bash the franchise. I literally was talking about like
what I was experiencing. It was a lot about my
life before the show. A little bit during well, a
lot of it about during filming, like what I was
feeling and experiencing and then what life was like trying
(41:44):
to make that relationship work. So thank you for saying that.
I'm proud of that. I'm proud that I was able
to pull that off. But it was really hard. And
then they've had me back for appearances like we're good.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Yeah you in that. Well, don't disparage them at all. Actually,
you never scared me away from doing it. You just
described the bat behind the scenes process before there was
such thing as podcasts packing and yes, like so, well,
it was so interesting, Like I just ate it up
because before podcasts there we had no insight as to
(42:19):
what like the behind the scenes of filming was. It
was so interesting, but you always made it seem you
never made it seem like you were you hated the experience.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Oh no, I'm thankful for the experience. I really am.
And it just it really beat me down for a while.
It was definitely depressed it, you know, but I've met
I've you know, met other great people through the show
and you know, like you for example, and now I podcast,
and yeah, I don't regret it. I definitely don't. It
(42:48):
was life changing, and you know, I ended up meeting
my husband kind of an roundabout way through the show.
But we can we can say of all that for
if you want to do a part two, let me know.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay, you're a mom
of three now I want to get into that. But
I'm sure that you have to run because of that.
So we will see you next time. Courtney, Thank you
so so much for bearing it all.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
No, you know, I'll sing like a canary and I've
got some more exciting stuff coming up soon, so stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
It's good. We'll see you then. Until next time. I've been, Ashley,
I've been Courtney. Woo bye. Follow the Ben and Ashley
I Almost Famous podcast on iHeartRadio or subscribe wherever you
listen to podcasts.
Ben Higgins, and Ashley I bring you Infamous. Sometimes roses
are red flags. Hey everyone, welcome back to the almost
of this podcast. Today is another episode of Infamous and
we're doing this. This is maybe the most infamous person
that's ever been on the show, Courtney Robertson. Courtney, it's
(00:21):
you and me today. We're gonna have a little girl
chat about your skinny dipping, about you possibly cheating on Ben,
all the tabloid covers that you were on. We are
so excited to have you on to the long time
Almost Famous listeners. Courtney, as you guys know, has been
on the show like I feel like once a year
or so. So of course we have covered some of
(00:42):
this before, but we wanted to get even deeper on
the past with you.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Wow, I love it. We're hot out the gate. Love
skinny Dipping, Still skinny Dip to this day. I always
love to join you. I think Ben's off gallivanting or.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
He's like just getting back from Italy's amazing that he
had his break I had my break up before him.
So yeah, coot, let's go all the way back to
twenty eleven. Were you a fan of the show before
you auditioned you know.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I wasn't a major Bachelor fan, but I watched loosely
like I saw like I saw Ben's finale, and that's
when the night that I signed up because obviously Ashley
didn't pick him and I had been dating in LA
and I was like, oh, this guy's cute, he's a
wine maker, he's ready to get married. And but I
(01:32):
had seen a little bit of like Ali Fedotowski season,
but just loosely watched. I wasn't like a you know, super.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Fan, okay, and then how did you audition?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So that night I applied the night of Ben and
Ashley Aberts finale. I had just gone through a recent
breakup and my sister was a massive fan, like she
did viewing parties. So I went online. I submitted like
a couple modeling photos. They wanted like a video, and
I was like, you know, I had some wine, I
was going or a breakup, and I was like, let's
just see. I almost like forgot that. I applied and
(02:05):
they called me, like I want to say, like two
days later. And I lived in Santa Monica at the time.
Their offices NCK was like right down the street, so
they're like, can you come in. I was like, whoa,
this is like happening quick.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Okay, So then did you just get to be a
shoe in? Would they meet you? And they're They're like,
you're in.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Pretty much yeah, But I was like very hesitant. I
was like, wow, this is like I just thought it
would be like fun to do apply online. And my
whole thing was, you know, it could have been Ben
or the other guy I think his name was Ryan,
the solar energy guy. And I was like very particular,
like I'm signing up to meet Ben, which I don't
think a lot of people know, and they couldn't really
(02:47):
tell me if it was him. I think he was
in talks or whatnot. But I actually backed out and
it was I had signed the contracts, I had done
all the psychic val all that stuff. I was like,
this is why, like I don't know if I want
to go through with this. And I backed out. And
then they called me the next day and they said,
we just want to let you know. We're not telling
(03:08):
a lot of people this, but it is going to
be Ben, okay.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
And then then you were like all right, I'm back
on pretty much.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
They said just go meet him night one. We think
you two are really going to hit it off? If
you don't, you can leave Night one like, no harm,
no foul. Little did I know? You can't just leave?
It's not it's not And I didn't want to because
once I met him, I was like, Oh, he's he
We really had like a spark.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Did you guys the forest in Prison Rows?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
No, Lindsay Cox did.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
She was the runner up.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
I hate to say that.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, it's a weird term for this show.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, she came riding in on the horse. I mean
who of course he gave her the first impression Rose,
but she was also really great.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
First, you had hesitance. Why why were you so hesitant?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
You know, I didn't watch a ton of reality TV,
and you know I had dated a variety of actors
and I had a long term relief the.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Drink, which you document in your book.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Jesse Metcalf and you we're on and off for a
long time.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
You had a type dark hair, olive skin, light eyes.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Oh yeah, dark hair, light eyes. I think Ben was
the first brown eyed guy I'd ever dated. Actually, fun fact,
but I actually hung out with Adrian before I left
for filming, and like, I was just kind of single
and I had seen Jesse again, but he was still
kind of pulling his same shenanigans, and I called him
to tell him I was doing the show. He was
not happy, but I just was like, what I'm doing
(04:33):
isn't working. Like I was twenty turning twenty eight, I
was starting to really think about wanting a family, and
I just thought, why not, let's mix it up. I
was having the best modeling career year of my life,
and I had a anyway, I won't bore you with
those details, but I just wanted to try something new,
and little did I know that it would completely change.
(04:55):
Like the trajectory of my life.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
With Jesse Metcalf, where you see it reason enough that
you had to tell him? Or is it just kind
of a courtesy?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
No? Not serious?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah at all?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I meant no, no at point. I mean, he took
me to the Emmys. We had been on and off
for years, Okay, you know he Yeah, as far as
far as that goes, I was more of a courtesy
because he was in the public eye and I knew
that there were pictures of us online and when you
do those questionnaires they make you write your ex's names down.
(05:30):
I specifically left him out like I don't want you know,
but when I called him to tell him I was
doing it, Like we had hung out a few times
in the in the recent months, and he's like, Courtney,
don't do it. Can I come over? This guy's gonna
pick you.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
And yeah, he didn't want you to do it because
he didn't want you to get picked and then he
would have had like to deal with the emotion of it.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Maybe, I mean, but I was so sick of like
we had been hanging out and then like at the time,
I think it was TMZ or I forget the news site,
Like we had hung out and like things were going
really well, he showed up at my gym. I lived
in San Monica. He was in Beverly Hills and he's like, ah,
like I've been hoping to run into you. I'm like,
you're literally at my gym like he had just gone
(06:15):
like was going through a breakup. Like I mean, like
there was like some connection there that we did for
a long time. And and then like two days later,
he's on DMZ like making out with some girl in
Venice Beach and I was like, that's it, Like I
can't get jerked around by this guy. Anymore. Yeah, So
I was like, this guy looks normal, he's a wine maker.
(06:36):
I love wine. Hey, why not, like, let's try something new?
And you know we did. I mean we were together
for a year, we really hit it off. But I
I'm glad I did it. I think that's the question
I get asked the most is like, do you regret
doing the show after we broke up? And I didn't
anticipate how bad the backlash would be and even just
(06:57):
the skinny dipping and being slush At the time, I
definitely regretted it. I was like, man, like I lost
my privacy. But now at forty two, I'm so glad
I did it. I'm married with three kids, life is
pretty normal.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
So you come across to me and always have as
not always have on the show, but in person as
a girl's girl, you're very easy to talk to. You're
just like truly sweet, and on the show you couldn't be.
You couldn't have been further from as far as what
we saw on TV. What was going on, just like
(07:34):
starting at week one with you and the other women,
was their tension? Did you think that you had villainous behavior?
Paint a picture of how it was wall filming versus
how it was when you watched it back.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
So night one was wild. It's like you're filming till
four am. I'm like, let me just get there, let
me see if I like him. I asked production if
I could be the first or last out at the
because I knew in casting that that's important. You don't
want to get lost in the shuffle. So I was
the last out of the limo. They when they aired it,
it didn't play like that.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
They didn't.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
They just kind of threw me in the middle. So
I got into the house a little bit later and
I walk in and I like, look at everybody's sitting there.
And I come in and I instantly like felt like
I could kind of read the room just from just
who I am. But I remember talking to specifically one girl,
Casey B who was at the end, who was the
(08:33):
one that famously came back in Switzerland, and was like, right,
you know, they always at that point in time, they
used to do that a lot. And I just was
like trying to make conversation with people, and you have
producers like grabbing you, like, oh, there's playing soccer out front,
like go do this, And I was just like trying
to wrap my brain around it. Hydrate up, eat, you know,
(08:53):
just stay calm in the setting. And I talked to
her and I said, so, what do you do for work?
And She's like, I'm not gonna tell you that. Like
she actually like there were girls that wouldn't even talk
to me, and so I just like, I'm like first
impressions and a couple of people rubbed me the wrong way.
I instantly bonded with Casey Steamer. We are still best
(09:15):
friends to this day. She tried to stick up for
me at the Women Tell All, but it just it
happened very quickly, and I kind of know where it turned.
We didn't stay in the mansion. We went to Sonoma,
and it happened because I got the second one on
one date. And once I got that one on one date,
it just everything shifted in the house and I heard
(09:39):
them talking about me. Producers were telling me they were
talking badly about me. Uh And something that wasn't shown
is Lindsay Cox and I like we actually really got
along really well. And there was a moment where it
was like late at night and I was tired and
I kind of like snipped at her and I woke
up in the morning and I pulled her aside and
I was like, I'm so sorry, Like I was exhausted
(10:00):
last night. So there was just I don't know if
I'm answering this properly, but are It was like it
was just a lot to navigate, and especially when people
off camera, like I didn't like the way they treated
producers but a lawn and who you know. Obviously he
always said like, your personality doesn't really translate on this show. Okay,
(10:23):
So I don't know. I do know that I was sassy.
I went into it like, Okay, now I really like him,
and now there's twenty girls here and I have to
just kind of like go through this.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
So when you were shooting, did you know you're gonna
be the villain? Pretty much?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Not at all?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Oh really, even though Alann would have said stuff like
that and the girls were talking about you, that.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Was more towards the end, and that's when I started
catching on, like, oh my gosh, there's a narrative here,
like I might have said winning once after like this thing.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Because your big thing was that, like you kind of
took Charlie Sheen's at the time of the time.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, yeah, skinny diipping and I was like on a
high and it felt so good and yeah, but yeah, no,
it just it was an awkward thing to go through
and there were times where I almost left for sure.
I was like, I don't know if this is worth it.
When they had Sean Tell show up, I was like,
this is crazy, Like what did I get myself into?
But I watched the first episode. I had a viewing party.
(11:21):
I had friends over and they showed my like package,
my intro, and that was the first time that I thought,
oh boy, I'm in trouble. It looks like they're going
to make me the villain.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
This is like a little bit of an outdated type
of comment. I suppose. Obviously you get cast on the Bachelor.
Everybody's pretty. You were model pretty. You were like a
model that was working. Do you think that you carried yourself?
First off, I mean there could have there. I was
assuming there was a lot of feelings of being threatened
(11:54):
just because you're so stunning. And secondly, you probably carred
yourself with confidence, just like knowing that you have a look,
you know.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I I mean the girls would say things to me like, oh,
she's a model. They called me the model and this
and that I kind of wish because I did have
my real estate license at the time. I didn't lead
with that because it didn't do me any favors whatsoever.
But and that's why I was like trying to talk
to people, like what do you do? Connect and like
(12:21):
that's how you connect with people, and people weren't trying
to get to know me, and I was just like, Okay, well,
this is just a weird environment. Like I'm going to
deal with that. But I went into it, like you know,
I've been on sets I've been modeling.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
For since I was suitable environment.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, Like my producer that I worked with was always laughing,
like I had like my makeup bag on the side,
like you know, like I was constantly touching myself up
because you're filming constantly. And I don't know if you
ever experienced that, Ashley, but you know you could, like
some people look pretty bad at them in the night
because I have a little.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Like modeling little vag too, you know, and because they
don't let you carry around behind the plant. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, but yeah, I definitely think I had the confidence,
especially more so back then, because I really felt like
I had nothing to lose. Like I was like, I
can just go back to life and let's see if
this works out. But I've always been pretty competitive and
always my mom was always like be a leader, not
a follower. And as soon as the girls started like
saying things to me, whether it be on or off camera,
(13:31):
I really kind of tried to stick up for myself,
and then I realized that wasn't working. It was just
it was just a mess.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Let's talk about the skinny dipping. When did that happen?
Was at mid season?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Oh, the skinny dipping happened in Puerto Rico. That was
probably about mid season. It was the second to last
location before overnights. Okay, I'm sorry hometowns. And he knew
that was going to happen. I think that that's the
common misconception is he acts so surprised when.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Because they were like, she might want to do something
fun with you in the water. He knew.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
We talked about it the night before and the way
it aired and like that was like the promo on
Good Morning America, and but we had talked about it
at the end of a group date the night before
in Puerto Rico, but nobody knew until that aired. The
girls didn't know. Like I made it very clear that like,
if I was going to do that, I didn't want
(14:26):
the girls to know because that would have just made
it so much worse for me. So I stole a
little bit of time and out there he told me like,
it's you. Yeah, it's you know. We didn't have mics on.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
The best place to say anything on the show is
out in the ocean because they can't boom you.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And they were like, come on in. They kept trying
to get us, and We're like, we're not coming in.
You know. It was like probably the most fun I
had on the show. Looking back, I probably would probably
would do it again, but I didn't realize in the
moment that it would be so controversial.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Did you guys have sex out there?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
It was like a little bit of this, a little
bit of that.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
That's what I thought of it.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
The waves were pretty there was a little bit of
a lot of waves going on, and but yeah, I
mean I got to, you know, kind of.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Her the car. Yeah yeah, okay, When so you knew
that it was gonna be you, then, how did that
make you feel the entire rest of the season.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Confident?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah? So probably even more villainous.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And also so the drama on my season was this
girl Emily, who went to him like location three and
was like, she's not the same as you. She just
she They held her right where we were talking, and
so I could see why she was triggered that night.
Maybe she had a little booze. We were kissing and
we were talking, and so they had her like waiting
to talk to him next, and so I think that's
(15:53):
what set her off. And then she went and talked
to him, and she's like, we don't we don't think
she spoke for the everybody. I guess, like, we don't
think that she's the same way around you as she is.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
That's right, that narrative.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
So that was like the where the everything shifted and
she was trying to rally everybody and people were like
we like her. It was like who do we? And
then before the week of the skinny dipping, she had
done it again, Like he kept saying like, hey, just
knock it off, like let me deal with that, and
she kept going to him and like every time she
like got time with him, she would talk badly about me,
(16:27):
which I think is so bad on any reality show
when you're trying to connect with the lead. Yeah, and
out there. I just said, I just want you to
know I don't know what she's saying, but I can't
stand her and she has been pretty nasty to me
and I want her gone.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
That's awesome. That was you. That was that was you
to him?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Yeah, Hello, It's Daniels Right or Strong and Wilfridell from
Podmeats World and we're bringing you Viva last content. That's right,
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(17:14):
of Y two K content.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Wait, we're back in Vegas.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Tell me why?
Speaker 3 (17:18):
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Speaker 1 (17:21):
Of course, we.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
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Speaker 5 (17:52):
Listen to Podmeats World on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
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Speaker 6 (17:58):
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Speaker 1 (18:30):
What was your relationship with production because you made a
comment about what Alan told you. You said that you
didn't like it when girls would treat them badly. How
did you What was your relationship with.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I left and I had a couple producers that I
had it out with where I felt like tricked and
I said, like I can't work with that person. Like
specifically in Panama, they said Ben's waiting for you in
the pool. Go get you have to get your swimsuit
on it. This girl and I go and I get
in the pool and I'm like, I'm literally walking behind
(19:04):
him having one on time with Jamie Otis, who is
now married at first sight, but I was like, tricks.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Was that the kiss moment with them?
Speaker 2 (19:14):
It was that night they began to.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Kiss moment because she said like you don't kiss well
or something like that, which is so funny.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, and she like ripped, well, I have had her on.
She's like, I didn't rip my dress, but the dress
but they put that in. But little things like that
where I was just like, ah, we just don't jive,
or you know, they're trying to get me to say
winning again or this and that. But I had really
good relationships with like I don't know if you want
me to say names, but like Bennett alone, Pete's Scletar,
(19:41):
it was a different.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
The good ones. The good ones so like you would
have fun with them in the interview room. Yes, I
so much of your quote villainous behavior was in the
interview room because you were probably just like having a
good time. This is why I also.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Hated doing the itms they constantly were pulling. I mean
I would say, what do you want me to say?
I got to the point where it's like question torture,
Like you're asking me the same question three different ways,
like what do you want me to say? And I'll
just put it in my own words?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Interesting, Okay, Yeah, But.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I mean I'm still good friends. Like I just was
reaching out to a lawn recently. I'm actually getting ready
to go film another show and I was picking his
brain about it. But I trust him, I really do we.
I mean we lived across the street from each other
for a couple of years and had a really deep bond.
But after the show, I had that like what most
(20:36):
contestants have where it's like it's airing and you're like,
this isn't how I thought it would be betrayed, And
I think for me it's different because I was engaged
to him and people saw that we had a real
connection and it was affecting our relationship while it was
airing out in real time. Alan was a huge help
trying to talk to Ben, trying to be like, hey,
(20:58):
like you know her, but like it goes more to
the editing.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yes, yes, So what would you well, I want to
talk about You're engagement first. So you wore this amazing
black dress with the long black gloves, Ashley, would you
call that amazing? See? Actually I would call that amazing
because it because it was so much different than normal.
Do you think that they were trying to play into
your villainous character.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I think they dressed me like Corella de Ville.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Okay, that's what I mean, but like, also, you looked
so freaking bomb.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
I was like, more, it was freezing in Switzerland where
we were staying in Sarmott, but they helicoptered me in
on top of like so you know, the matta horn
was in the background. But it was like actually hot
that day. But that's why I had these black leather
gloves on that just went upstairs and they had put
me in this like white cape. And had I known,
(21:53):
I even went to Carrie Fetman the Silas and I
was like.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Who only picks out your last dress? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I walked into the room. I know. I went first
and there were like four dresses on a bed and
I walked in. I go, Lindsay's gonna pick that one.
It was navy blue, like poofy or something. I was like,
that was the best one for me, the black one
out of all. But I was like, is this it? Like?
Had I known, I would have probably packed, But I
(22:20):
didn't know. I thought I might leave night one and
he's like, I'm like, can you go to Paris and dress?
Speaker 1 (22:28):
And the answer no, oh no, I don't know for
the girl they know they're winning. I'm not sure how
far they go for outfits. So obviously that was kind
of your outfit because it went along with your darker character.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, they were dressing me like and I've since heard
and no offensive like Alan or whoever, that they were
like feeding like this black widow and you know this
that narrative to the other girls. And you know, so
they would tell me what the other girls were saying
about me too, and that's something that I don't think
a lot of people know as well as it was
just a pressure cooker. So but you know, I did
(23:11):
ask for a gold ring, and in overnights he did
say to me like I'm madly in love with you.
He didn't say I'm going to propose to you, but
he was like, I'm in love with you, and like
I didn't have a shadow of a doubt that he
wasn't gonna propose.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Did it feel like love to you or did it
feel like lust? Because I think of him lusting after you,
and I don't even know what you would have felt
for him.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, I think Ben is charming. He's charming, and I
think that I got to see. I don't think he
was accurate, accurately portrayed on the show. Like he's a
lot more fun than I think what they showed, and
I know he felt that way. But I remember towards
the end of filming one of the EPs, a female
was like, would you be the next Bachelor if he
doesn't pick you? And this is like right before the finale,
(23:59):
and I kind of threw me like what, Yeah, Like
I can't say yes because what if they tell him that,
like she's here to do that? And I was never
a thought in my mind because I had feelings at
that point in time. And I will say that the
whole thing is a fairy tale. I mean, you're we're
in Switzerland, we're going on dates, we're in helicopters, we're
flying over the Matterhorn. Like all that stuff helps for sure,
(24:23):
and I think it's almost I hate to say trauma bonding,
but I think once the camera stopped rolling and we
had a lot of fun in those happy couple months,
I think that was when the cracks started seeping in
and the show was starting to air yeah, but we
really tried to make it work for a year. I
said to him, we really owe it to ourselves, Like
we just went through this like crazy thing, and we
(24:44):
owe it to ourselves. I think we would regret not
trying to make it work in the real world. And
I do think the fame affected him. I think that.
You know, he had been dating, like Jennifer Love Hewittt.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah, I know, so we've heard so before you he
left for filming The Bachelor. Yeah, so in between his
two seasons, well, I.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Was meeting up with Adrian telling him I'm going on
The Bachelor. He's like, what's that show about? He was
dating Jennifer Love Hewittt. She allegedly I offered him the
same amount of money. He had already signed the contract
to do the show, and he wanted to do the show, and.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
He wanted to do the show more than continue to
date Jennifer Love You, and.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
He said on other podcasts like maybe I should have
just done that, which is always it's kind of sucks
to hear those things because it's like we really, like
he knew my family, like we had a real relationship.
He reached out to me about the year before I
met my husband. Most people don't know this, and he
was watching our season back over the holidays that we
rendezvous and we really thought about maybe trying again. And
(25:52):
this was like years later after my book came out.
He didn't talk to me. He was so pissed and
we really kind of just put a bow on that reallylationship.
And he's married now. I'm obviously married with three kids.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
The summer before you met your husband, you had to
fling again with Ben.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yeah, we met up for New Year's and we actually
watched Ari's season together. I think no, I think it
was his first premiere, and I remember I told Ari.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah, well, we all know that you had a relationship
with Ari too, and I know that you finding out
that Ari was going to be the bachelor was not
an easy thing for you. Did you did you come
together in that trauma bond? Well?
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I almost wondered if he reached out to me because
he kind of realized, like I don't, I don't know,
but like that that maybe that was like that's not
a thing for them, because like we had done, like
we were like good friends, like we had posted photos
together and you and Hari. Yeah, and then he was
announced as the Bachelor. We ended up watching his like
night one together, and obviously Ari was already back and
(26:54):
I was like, guess who I'm meeting up with in
Santa Barbara and he's like, please don't say Ben. I'm like, yeah,
so kind of good tea there, but I mean and
then yeah, Ben and I he was in Sonoma still
and he was saying about moving to New York, and
you know, Ben and I talked about moving to New
York together. This is like, wow, blasts from the past.
(27:15):
We spent time there together and in Connecticut. So yeah,
I'm glad that we kind of put a bow on it.
And now now, like I still talk to his sister
once in a while, like her and I were super close,
and I just you know, at the end of the day,
you know, it's so funny to like think about like
the drama with the girls, and you know, it's just
(27:38):
it is what it is. But I'm glad that Ben
and I cleared the air and were friendly and to
each their own.
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Speaker 7 (29:00):
Almost thirty years together for kids and some of reality
TV's most unforgettable moments, we know a thing or two
about living life out loud. We're taking you behind the
scenes in our new podcast Between Us with Me Heather
to Brow and.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Me Terry Debro.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Between Us isn't about perfect lighting or curated Instagram grids.
Speaker 7 (29:18):
It's the unfiltered, behind closed doors conversations you wish you
could eavesdrop on equal parts smart, funny, and a little
bit scandalous.
Speaker 4 (29:26):
Every week, Heather, We'll bring you an unapologetic take on
the headlines, the trends, and the cultural moments everyone's texting about.
Speaker 7 (29:34):
And Terry will deliver insider beauty, health and wellness insights
you won't find on TikTok.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
Together, we'll tell the stories, spill the secrets, and share
the hacks that keep life, marriage, and everything in between
feeling fresh and fun.
Speaker 7 (29:46):
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gatekeeping here.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
And plenty of did they just say that? Moments?
Speaker 7 (29:53):
Listen to between Us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts
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Speaker 1 (29:59):
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Speaker 7 (30:03):
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Speaker 1 (30:08):
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Speaker 4 (30:10):
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Speaker 1 (30:14):
We will take you inside the castle starting from season
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Speaker 6 (30:20):
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Speaker 1 (30:32):
What was tabloid life back then? I was reading an
old Reddit threat before having you on, and some people
in there were like, I mean, the girls today don't
even know about it was, how bad it was because
tabloids aren't as much of a thing anymore, because we
have social media and social media as it's own tabloid,
and at least with that you're able to be like, hey,
(30:55):
getting on because there's this picture coming around about me,
and like there's a more ongoing narrative. But like, you're
so out of control of your public narrative when it's
a tabloid situation. So what was it like literally being
at CBS in the grocery store and seeing like a
fake report on the cover of us legally, Because I think,
like to some degree that has got to be that's
(31:18):
just got to be more difficult, right because one there's
no control and two like it's in your face wherever
you go. I guess that's the same as social media,
but there's something about being printed that just feels way
more surreal.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, the media was not kind to me, and they
were reaching out to my ex boyfriend of seven years
and hounding anybody from high school that knew me, and
an ex boyfriend of mine have two years sold a
story on me for twenty thousand dollars. I think me
personally the false stories because they're headlines. Like, you know,
(31:54):
I know what's true. It's my life. But now people
think these things of me. They want the headlines, they
want the clickbait, like you know, sexual seduction mayn eater.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
The most hated woman on TV. That's in front of
my face right now.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Oh all of them. I mean National Inquirer was really
bad POP, but a lot of it. They pulled modeling photos,
but paparazzi was hounding me. I did not anticipate that.
I had it for about two months POP. Four different paparazzis.
Every morning. If I went to the gym, they were
outside my door. I knew them by name. They followed
(32:30):
me everywhere I went. That was what was really hard,
is that feeling of like, oh my gosh, now I
have to think about what I look like. And on
top of it, I was dealing with like kind of
a rocky relationship at the time, and Ben had gotten
me a diamond band. He's like, they took your ring away,
so I want you to have this diamond band to wear.
(32:50):
And they're like, okay, you can wear it, but you
have to wear it on your right hand. And I
just got to the point where I was like so
mad at the show, mad at everybody. I just started
wearing it on my left hand because I'm like, they
want something. But for me, it was like the trickle down,
Like it was really hard for me to navigate the
false stories, like like there was no filtering. It was
(33:11):
like she wore white to my wedding, like like these
like most bogus stories on me, and I'm like, oh,
like it's just like like the fake news was the
hardest because I didn't have a platform, and the women
coming off the show back then, they would let them
do the media rounds and as soon as they got
voted off, and they were all just trashing me because
(33:35):
also the show was airing, so they were getting gassed up, right, yeah,
like they're seeing what I'm saying in my itms, And
I think the worst thing that they said about me
was like she just sleeps all the time, very alla
carinne Olympios. I'm like, yeah, I was exhausted and I
didn't want to be around anybody. The only time they
weren't you weren't miked up is they were like, I
(33:56):
need to take a nap. But yeah, that was really hard.
And then my mom was got really sick at the time,
and that that was what everything shifted for me, is
I had no help in the media or media coaching.
And I got a call that was like, your mom's
going to be on the cover of US weekly, like
(34:16):
the sidebar, and I called yeah, and it was like
personal stuff, and I called I think a lawn and
then like the higher ups and I said, this is
like my choice to go on the show, like now
it's like affecting my family. And at that point in time,
Ben and I weren't talking very much, like he didn't
really see how bad that time was in my life
(34:38):
and how.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Even though you guys are still technically together, it was
just a strain point.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yeah, and I felt like I had to be strong
and like kind of like act like everything was okay.
And I was like I have like he knew the
paparazzi was there every day, and he's like Oh, I
saw you at the farmer's market and you spilled your
tomatoes like he thought it was like funny, and like,
this is like hard for me. So I just remember
I was on the cover of US Weekly for about
four weeks in a row, and then I hate to
(35:06):
say it, but Whitney Houston Rip passed away and then
I got one week off. No way, yeah, yeah, I
got one week off, and then it just fired right
back up.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Cordney. This is a wild to think back to think
that The Bachelor was such a big deal back then
that you would just get cover after cover.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
I mean, now I can look back, but at the time,
I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so depressed. This
is like yeah, and my mom's sick, and like I
just was like my family, Like I need to protect
the family, Like I don't care about him. He's being
kind of shitty to me, like this isn't what I want.
And then I was also kind of embarrassed because like
I think about Jesse and like, what's he thinking about this?
(35:51):
And my ex was getting hounded and he was like
so supportive and he had a hard time with me
doing the show. I actually saw him before I went
for filming. So anyway, I feel I feel like we
might need to do a part two because.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
I know the time click on and I'm like, wait
a second, we need a part two here for sure.
Before I let you leave for this part. Because I'm
serious about having a part two, you must know for
a fact whether Ben Flannik actually did it. Chris Jenner,
(36:26):
I mean, I mean, I've seen her face right now.
She's giving us the old fashioned Courtney face.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I talked to him about it when we were in
Santa Barbara and he said no, but he said I
know him pretty well. I mean, those cheating photos came out.
He was never gonna. I'm like, your hand's on your butt,
like it looks like you're kissing. That was another part
of our story that played out after the Final Rose.
(36:51):
But I think if he did, he'll take it to
the grave. And I remember messaging his sister at the
time saying, like, my sources are telling me that Chris
Jenner is planning these stories, and you got to tell
your brother that, you know, because we weren't on good terms,
and you know, Chris Jenner could rule the world with me, dya.
(37:12):
But he's like, yeah, like you know, we went to
Kanye West, and he talked to me about meeting the
sisters and all that.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
When the smoke there's fire. They didn't just hang out.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
I mean they were at Joe Joe Francis's place, and
I if he didn't tell me, but I one hundred
percent think there was some smoochie pooches.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I think she was like.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
She's a big Bachelor fan or she was at the time, yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Bachelor fan. And I think that she was wanting whether
anything happened with them between physically. He didn't admit that
to me, but I think that she was planting that
seat like I think she liked she had just broken
up or divorced Caitlin Jenner wild and I think that
that was the narrative she wanted. I mean, Chris Jenner
(37:57):
is smart. You don't take Ben Flanneck shopping at Niema,
you don't take him to a Kanye West concert. Yeah,
but I don't think that he plugged into the narrative,
like he was like going to the media being like
nothing's going on. I'm like, oh, And then as soon
as he started like pushing back like he was out.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Yeah, thanks for that insight right there.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
But if I had to guess, I'm sure. I mean,
she's a babe.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I know none of us would be judging him at
all for the age gap there.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
But he also with that said, though he's married now,
I suspect he's probably going to start a family soon.
I could see him being one of those that's like, surprise,
we had a baby. That's kind of what he did
with his marriage, and I'm really happy for him. I
you know, I you know, put a bow on that
part chapter of my life, and who knows, maybe ten
years from now we can look back and look. I mean,
(38:49):
it's a weird thing to go through and to just
kind of look back at it fondly.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I want to end with this for now. You wrote
you were the First. I want to say that You
Were the First Bachelor book, and one that I have
repeatedly said in this podcast helped educate me going into
the show. I read it on the way to casting
weekend in LA and it prepared me for so many
steps along the way. And it is such a good read.
(39:16):
You guys, if you are a Bachelor fan and you
know you've experimented with the book books before, this is
the book. This is the bachelor book, it's called I
Didn't come here to make Friends. Confessions of a Reality
show villain. When you wrote that book and then all
the spin off shows started happening, Bachelor Pad, Bachelor in Paradise,
(39:37):
there must have been some inquiry to have you on them,
Was there not? Or was it weird because you had
written such a tell all book.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
So great question, Ashley. When I went to write my book,
I had to jump through so many hoops. I got
the call like, we're getting ready to send you a
cease and desist.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
I was like, to be honest, there's a lot of
seas and desist written all of that book.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
It.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, you know, I mean it's it's got the stuff
in it.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
I found a way to write it where it didn't
really break the contract in a way because that contract
takes away all of your human rights. And I probably
I'm not a suwy person or sooe happy, but I
probably like could have gone at them at some point.
I think they knew that for defamation or like they
said that the skinny dipping thing would be blurred and
(40:28):
the promo ran on Good Morning America and there were
no blurboxes. I'm literally texting along like this is not okay,
like and it's already out there, like people slowed it down.
But as far as the book goes, I said to
my contacts, like, if you can help me get this
done and push this along, I'll do whatever show you want.
I'll do your next show. And that just so happened
(40:50):
to be Bachelor in Paradise, and so I kind of
negotiated with them.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
You negotiate with them to do it.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Yeah, So I negotiated if they could help me get
my book done, that I would do their next show,
which was Paradise. And so I was in talks to
do that and all of that, and then at the
end of the day, they realized with the book coming
out that they didn't want contestants to feel uncomfortable around me,
thinking that they'd be in fear of me writing another book.
(41:21):
So it was a conflict of interest, which was great
for me because I didn't want to do it. That
was just kind of like my like show of faith,
like I'm gonna you know, I'm not gonna bat. I
didn't bash the franchise. I literally was talking about like
what I was experiencing. It was a lot about my
life before the show. A little bit during well, a
lot of it about during filming, like what I was
feeling and experiencing and then what life was like trying
(41:44):
to make that relationship work. So thank you for saying that.
I'm proud of that. I'm proud that I was able
to pull that off. But it was really hard. And
then they've had me back for appearances like we're good.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Yeah you in that. Well, don't disparage them at all. Actually,
you never scared me away from doing it. You just
described the bat behind the scenes process before there was
such thing as podcasts packing and yes, like so, well,
it was so interesting, Like I just ate it up
because before podcasts there we had no insight as to
(42:19):
what like the behind the scenes of filming was. It
was so interesting, but you always made it seem you
never made it seem like you were you hated the experience.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Oh no, I'm thankful for the experience. I really am.
And it just it really beat me down for a while.
It was definitely depressed it, you know, but I've met
I've you know, met other great people through the show
and you know, like you for example, and now I podcast,
and yeah, I don't regret it. I definitely don't. It
(42:48):
was life changing, and you know, I ended up meeting
my husband kind of an roundabout way through the show.
But we can we can say of all that for
if you want to do a part two, let me know.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay, you're a mom
of three now I want to get into that. But
I'm sure that you have to run because of that.
So we will see you next time. Courtney, Thank you
so so much for bearing it all.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
No, you know, I'll sing like a canary and I've
got some more exciting stuff coming up soon, so stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
It's good. We'll see you then. Until next time. I've been, Ashley,
I've been Courtney. Woo bye. Follow the Ben and Ashley
I Almost Famous podcast on iHeartRadio or subscribe wherever you
listen to podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Ben Higgins
Ashley Iaconetti
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