August 9, 2025 • 40 mins
What if you’re married and THEN you meet the person you were destined to be with? That's what happened to the author of Loveable, Amber Rae.
Amber is talking with Jennie Garth all about the complex feelings that happen in a sexless and emotionally unfulfilling marriage and the reasons why we stop ourselves from acknowledging that something might be wrong.
Amber opens up about what happened when she met the love of her life while she was married...and how choosing to listen to her inner voice changed her life forever.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome back to I Do Part two. It's one of
your hosts, Jenny Garth, jumping in today. I'm intrigued by
the conversation I'm going to have today. Sometimes when people
break up or divorce, it's complicated, and sometimes there's a
third person involved. My guest today is an author, a speaker,
(00:38):
and a teacher known for her books Choose Wonder over
Worry and the Answers Are Within You. Her new memoir,
Lovable is out now and I can't wait to talk
to her about love, marriage, relationships, divine intervention, shame, guilt, healing, oh,
all the things, so much, so much so, please welcome
Amber Rat to the podcast. Hello, Hey, Amber's oh so exciting.
(01:02):
You have a new book. The title of your new
memoir is lovable, and that is a word that carries
so much. So let's just start with this question. Have
you always felt like you were lovable?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I have not always felt lovable. But what's interesting is
that I don't know if I would necessarily define it
that way. I wouldn't have thought, oh, I don't know
if I'm lovable. It was for me kind of this
like unconscious story that was driving so much of my
behavior and motivation without me even realizing it. I didn't
realize that I was trying to accomplish all these things.
(01:37):
And I had this ambition in my career because I
felt unworthy of love. I didn't realize that I was
going after a particular kind of unhealthy relationship because I
didn't feel lovable, and I thought if I could convince
them that I was worthy of love, then I would
finally be enough. Though no, I haven't always felt lovable.
(01:59):
But it's interesting all the ways it was sneaking up
in my life without me even realizing it.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Right right when you were younger, What were your examples
of love when you were growing up, like things that
you saw with your parents.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, I didn't have healthy models of love.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
So happens.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, my father actually left my mom and I when
I was about two and a half and he got
into a car accident when I was three. He got
behind the wheel of a car under the influence his
best friend, who was getting married the next day, said
very sadly died in the crash. But my father had
a traumatic brain injury, which my mom found out about
(02:39):
on the news, and then he was in a hospital
from when I was three until I was twelve, but he,
you know, never regained full consciousness. But the reason I
share all this is because I remember, you know, one
of my I have two core memories of him. The
first was when I was right before he got in
(02:59):
the car ACXI and he called me and said, you know,
I'm sorry I haven't been around, but no matter what,
I'll always love you. And that's one of my first
core memories as a kid and my first memory of him.
And then fast forward to I'm nine years old and
I'm meeting him in the hospital and here i'm, you know,
now a young girl who wants nothing more than to
(03:20):
feel that sort of love and connection with her father.
And so I go to meet him, and of course
he can't meet me. He has a brain injury. But
little me didn't fully understand, and so she like walks
into the hospital room just like can you see me?
Can you know me? Can you love me? And you know,
he can't meet me there. But I end up making
(03:41):
up a story that I tell my friends at the playground,
which is that the moment I walked in the room,
he knew my name. He said I love you to
me and only me, and you know, I share the
story in the book, because when I was reflecting on it,
I realized that the you know, for little me, that
reality was so painful to look at that I had
(04:01):
to make up a story to make the experience.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Okay, oh that breaks my heart. Man. What was your
relationship with your mom?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Like? My mom had me so young, she was twenty one.
She you know, my mom was this like powerhouse entrepreneur.
You know, she had all men working for her. She
worked in the field of construction. She was like a
badass woman. Was she a contractor?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Was she an architect?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
What was she was more like a She was an
interior like interior contractor. So she did all like interiors, flooring,
window like everything inside of a developers in architects. But
so like I had this like strong career figure who,
like you know, couldn't figure out love, and so I
(04:51):
had to a stepdad and I had you know, so
my momels of love were kind of like, I don't
want any of this. But the only thing I knew,
the look out, of course, was like romantic comedies, these
grandeur expressions of love. This must be what love is like.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, I think my girls grew up believing that that's
how real life was going to be too when it
came to relationships and love stories. It's just not like that.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
No, it's just not like that.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah. I mean when I was younger, I saw a
real love between my mom and dad. It wasn't always perfect,
you know. My mom struggled with her insecurities and jealousy.
And it was weird because my mom too was a
very capable, strong entrepreneur out there with her own business
(05:44):
and really very independent. But then I would see that
other side of her that was modeling for me, jealousy,
and also I was at the other end of a
lot of messaging that things were supposed to look like
they looked in Cinderella, like you were supposed to be
put up on a pedestal and just revered and you know,
(06:05):
cherished all the time. And it's not a very realistic,
you know, example of what it's really going to be like.
So yeah, I think we all have we all come
into like our time when we start having those relationships
and learning about love independently and we have to figure
it all out and wide through all the muck that
(06:29):
we've been fed by society or our parents or whatever
it was. Our examples but yeah, it's it's an interesting
journey to find out, like, oh, that's not how it
really works. Yeah, in your book, you paint the picture
of a couple that looks on the outside like they
(06:50):
have it all together right, but apparently behind closed doors,
the relationship was not what you needed it to be,
what it needed to be. It was sexless, there was
a lack of emotion and that depth that comes with that.
I think a lot of our audience can understand that
(07:11):
and can relate because that's what happens, you know, like
the decline of a marriage usually ends up with those characteristics.
Why do you think as women we take on this
sort of emotional burden to make everything look fine on
the outside.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, you know, I think partly because of you know,
a it wasn't modeled to us what it's supposed to
look like, of what true lasting, genuine love two people
putting in the word, two people showing up consistently. And
so I can speak for myself, you know, I look
to the media, I look to movies of like, Okay,
it looks like this, so you have to paint this picture.
(07:51):
And so I think I felt pressure to make my
life match that ideal and you know, I did that
because I was trying to convince myself it was right.
And I was afraid from the very beginning to listen
to the inner, the quiet, persistent voice within me that
was like, are you sure this is it? Are you
(08:12):
sure it's okay that you don't really have sexual chemistry
with him and he feels more like a friend than
a lover. Are you sure that's okay? And I just
pushed it down, pushed it down, pushed it down, because
you know, I was in my first marriage, I was
in my mid twenties. I thought this was what I
was supposed to do. You know, women are supposed to
now get married and do the thing and have the
kids and yeah. So I think there was both the
(08:33):
societal pressure to get it right combined with you know,
not knowing how to face what was missing in the relationship,
not knowing how to navigate those conversations.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, because you feel the feelings, You feel the sort
of emptiness or the area where you're like, where that
question comes from? What is this? What it's really? Is
this it?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:05):
And it's probably very hard, I know, it's very hard
to start really listening to that voice because what you
want to do is shut it down and get rid
of it, because I feel ashamed of those feelings. I
can imagine you did too, Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
It's like, oh God, no, don't make me. This is
going to be hard. I'm going to be able, even
though my life doesn't feel quite right right now, having
to address this and face that, Oh, don't make me
do that, that's so uncomfortable. Yeah. So I think that's
part of it as well.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
I mean, for me, when I was going through a divorce,
I really struggle with that. And I think there's, you know,
that that element of how it's been portrayed in the
press and how people know it, not you know, not
just me, but like the world seeing it as one
thing but me experiencing it as another. And then just
(10:02):
the feeling not only of the sheer disappointment for the kids,
but then because you didn't you didn't have kids with
your first husband.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I did not, thank God, Thank gosh.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, that's a whole nother mess to deal with. But yeah,
I remember just feeling like I'm letting everyone down, not
just me, not just my kids, not my family members,
his family members, but the entire world. And that was
just so much pressure Yeah, so much pressure. Yeah, you
(10:38):
really open up in your book about your struggle for
intimacy in your marriage, and I think that's really brave,
because that too, can be really shrouded in shame and
embarrassment and like there's something wrong with you. You know.
I know that you talked about the fact that your
partner would shut you down. Did that resonate with you
(11:02):
as rejection? Because I've been in that situation, and for
whatever the reason is, it's still there's still something inside
of me that says, ouch, you know, is there something
wrong with me?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah? I think I internalized it a lot, and even
looking back at the relationship and all the parts of
it that weren't working, I never pointed to the relationship
as the problem. I was like, maybe I'm working too much.
Maybe I'm not you know, getting enough downtime. Maybe we're
not supposed to live in New York. Maybe I like women.
Maybe you know. It was like all the questions, all
(11:37):
the questions of self of like why am I not
feeling intimacy, Why am I not feeling connected to my partner?
Why isn't this working? Oh, I must be broken, I
must be the problem. If I can just fix me
if I can just fix us, if I can just
It was like I was obsessively trying to figure it
out instead of being like, oh, maybe we're not that compatible.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah you know, and you don't want to jump to
that one.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah maybe you know we're more friends than we are lovers.
Maybe we you know, maybe this isn't the right fit.
That felt yeah, scarier to look at. And so it was,
you know, I was always the issue, and in terms
of seeing it, you know what's interesting. I think because
of my background and because of some of my you know,
(12:24):
my abandonment experiences as a young girl, I decided unconsciously
to make safe choices in love and I never wanted
to feel the longing or the desire for someone who
couldn't meet me. And so I think I chose my
ex because he was more of a friend, He was
safe in some ways. It felt like a you know,
(12:46):
a choice where I won't get hurt again. And because
you know, the intimacy and that chemistry wasn't really there
from the beginning, I kind of was like, oh, well,
maybe we'll figure that out eventually. It's okay, Like I
you know, feel safe year in a lot of ways,
So while it like, there were absolutely moments where it
felt like a rejection and I felt like what am
(13:06):
I doing wrong? But I also think I like knew
deep down that I had I was like waking up
to the fact that I had chosen a safe partner
out of fear of being left again.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, I can relate my first, uh, my first marriage,
this is my third one. My first marriage was the
same way, Like I felt like my father was he
was really ill, and I felt like he was going
to leave me, And I chose somebody that felt safe
in certain ways, but I didn't even recognize the ways
(13:42):
in which he wasn't safe at all. Yes, because I
wanted All that mattered to me was that feeling of safety,
that like big strong figure next to me, behind me,
with me, you know. So it's definitely something I think
that we make mistakes, you know, when we learn from
and even like in the ebbs and flows of a
(14:03):
real of a marriage, like there are days upon days
when you're like is this right? Or like am I
are we too? Are we just roommates?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Are we?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
What's do we really connect? And then when you stop
all of those spending thoughts and you start to focus
on how can you make the relationship what you want?
Like what work you can do from your side to
see if those feelings change, those dynamics change. But I
(14:35):
think it's natural to have all those doubts and all
those questions because I don't know about you, but like,
being with one person for the rest of my life
is like that is that normal? Is that doable? Do
you ever? Do you ever feel that way? Like were
you ever like maybe just marriage isn't for me?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
You know that it wasn't. That wasn't what came up
for me. Mine was more like how do I like,
can we continue to grow together? And how do we
continue to grow together? And fearing that we might grow apart.
But I think I was the kind of person who
like wanted marriage and wanted that, like the idea of
a long term commitment was actually exciting to me. I
might be more anxiously attached in the attachment styles. I
(15:22):
was like, I want closeness, and it's more like what
if it goes away? So I think that that's more
what I've had to contend with. But I totally hear
you on the like is this is it really one person?
And you know and it's so funny because like marriages
go through seasons, like I you know what, the story
I tell my book is how I met my person
(15:44):
well married, And that was what finally woke me up
to realizing, wait a minute, I'm in a fake marriage.
And I didn't even know I was how much I
was pretending. But you know in this, you know, we've
just had a in the in my second marriage, we've
now you know, we've had a kid. We have a
ten month old, and you know, it's not the like
sexy long drives, romantic nights out. It's like logistics, who's
(16:07):
doing this? You know, It's it's such a different season
of the marriage. And there are moments where I'm like,
are we ever going to get that like that you
know back in Yeah? Right, But I feel like it
like it's it's it deepened, it evolves into something different,
and I think, are like, what we're doing now is
(16:29):
how do we keep that connection alive in this season
of like diapers and sleepless nights and all of the
agitation that comes from not sleeping.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, I mean people could definitely relate to that if
you if you have a puppy or if you have kids.
You know, the focus is elsewhere, and it can really
chisel away at those connections, those those intimate, sweet things
that you shared when those responsibilities weren't there.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Your childist is like, why do I like you again? No?
I love you, but why do I like you right now? Right?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I'm curious when you were talking about this, did you
have that feeling with your first husband in the beginning.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
No, it was very different. It was, oh, he feels
like a friend. I feel safe here. And I resonated
so deeply to what you said where It's like I
thought he was so safe and I didn't yet realize
all the ways in which I felt unsafe and like that.
You know, that chipping away came later. But what I
am very grateful for is that was a nine year
relationship and I think because I felt safe enough, it
(17:44):
was actually a massive moment for my career, my creative expression.
You know, I became an author, I wrote many books.
I really like, found and discovered myself. I did deep work.
I understood my wounding. I you know, learned about attachment trauma.
You know, it's that relationship enabled me to do all
of that, and I feel like kind of become the
(18:05):
woman who was ready for extraordinary and safe love. And
so in some ways that prepared me that relationship, as
odd as that might sound.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Was he doing work also while you were doing that?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
That was part of the challenge is he was not
doing the same work, and so I felt like there
was like a mismatch in depth and I, yeah, I
just that was my biggest begging of him, like please,
like we you look at you know, when you look
at your stuff?
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, I know. And you can't make your partner do that.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
And sometimes they don't do it, They just won't ever
do it. But sometimes something happens and they have that
moment where they're like, oo, I see my part in this.
I really need to figure out why I am What
am I doing in this team? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
And I had a therapist say something really insightful to me.
She was like, this is interesting. Who does he remind
you of? Because it sounds like you've picked the same
person who's familiar but new and you're trying to resolve
the wounds of your past. Who are you always trying
to change in your life? And I was like, oh,
my mom, I know. So she's like, you're not saying, hey, husband,
(19:21):
do the work, please work on yourself so that I
you know, I'll I know you'll still be here to
take care of me. You're saying, hey, mom, please do
the work so I know you'll still be here to
take care of me. And I realize like, oh, I
was like, oh my god, my husband is a surrogate
for my How my mother wound?
Speaker 1 (19:37):
I hate that so much. It's so hard because that's
the last person you really want to be thinking about
when you're looking into the eyes of your spouse, like
it's not good.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
No. I was like, I don't have daddy issues. I
don't have mommy issues. And my therapist is like, uh huh,
you're never trying to change or fixure of mom.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Oh man, that I mean that at the core of
any fraud, you know, you can't change or fix anyone.
So yeah, that's you're never going to get very far
with that challenge. We hear from a lot of people
on this podcast that they knew their marriage wasn't right
(20:17):
long before it actually ended, whether it was you know,
near the end, or even if it was before they
walked down the aisle or as they're walking down the aisle.
There's those thoughts, you know, I always wonder am I
these thoughts that on, these questioning thoughts about like have
I picked right? Is this forever?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Is?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Can I cohabitate with this person for the rest of
my life? I always think, is that is that a
real red flag? Is that an actual red flag? Or
is that just my mind just trying to destroy something good?
How did you, like, cause I'm sure you felt those
feelings at times too, Like how did you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah? I was I was one who walked down the
aisle thinking I don't know how long this is going
to last? Oh god, it was, you know, But I
was also like, but well through a great party.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
You see.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
If that sounds like, that's how I rationalize it in
the moment, you know. I think my struggle discerning between
intuition and fear is also part of what kept me
in it, because I kept saying, Oh, maybe this is
just fear, Maybe this is just my mind. But the
truth is is that when I was alone and I
was still, and I'm you know, I'm a writer, and
(21:31):
I was a pen and paper, my pen would say
this is not right. And that came from a quiet
voice that came from like a knowing voice, that came
from a calm, peaceful place inside of me, not a
racing mind. That's like, you know, there's a different energy
to anxiety and fear than there is to intuition and knowing,
and so the intuition and knowing would trigger the fear
(21:54):
of like, oh God, what are you going to do?
Everyone's going to be mad at you. What are people
going to think? You can't cancel your wedding? People worth
flying halfway across the world. You just spent so much
money on this. That was the fear that was reacting
to the knowing, And it was the fear that kept me,
you know, so concerned about what everyone else would think
and then not making choices that reflected my my authenticity.
(22:16):
And so the work for me as a like i'd
consider myself kind of a harmonizer and a people pleaser.
It became realizing that I have to tolerate people's disappointment
and disapproval of me, and that was going to be
my greatest edge, because so long as I was trying
to make everyone happy, I was only going to make
(22:37):
myself unhappy. If I was just trying not to disappoint everyone,
I was going to continue to have to live with
my own disappointment. So I realized I had to instead
of like tolerating feeling disconnected in my marriage or like
I'm unfulfilled, I was going to have to tolerate the
discomfort of other people being disappointed. And so, you know,
once I knew the knowing was the knowing, it wasn't
(22:59):
the trubble for me wasn't so much hearing the knowing,
it was actually acting.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
On it, right, because he carried around the knowing for
a while.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Care out of the knowing for a while, and I
was really like, just people, this is going to hurt
someone that I do care about, and this is gonna
upset people, and people are gonna have a lot of
thoughts and feelings about it. And you know, our nervous
system can only tolerate so much. And so I think
part of why we stay as long as we do
is that our nervous system doesn't have doesn't yet have
(23:27):
the capacity to handle, you know, canceling, let's see, canceling
a wedding, spending all that money, doing all those things,
And so we stay because it's actually more comfortable to
stay than it is to face the hard but true choice.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Right, Yeah, for sure, I mean I felt that way
for sure with my first marriage when it was over
very short lived marriage, by the way, when I knew
that it wasn't right, and then I started moving in
that direction. And then I met someone else and that
made it a lot more clear. And that's you know,
(24:06):
that always happens when you meet someone else in a
breakup or relationship ending. It's a lot easier because you're like, oh,
I can focus on that, and that feels so good.
I'm going to go to that, you know, instead of
thinking about the earthquake that you just you know, the
big show that just exploded in your wake. And I
remember feeling like the worst feeling of knowing that I
(24:27):
was hurting someone ultimately, Yeah, and that does that can
keep you right where you are, because that is a
very big I choose me moment, and it's it sounds
selfish m hm. It looks to other people and even
internally like grappling with is this the most selfish thing
(24:48):
I've ever done? Yeah, it's hard to like you got
to just love yourself through that, I guess, and just
keep you know, reminding yourself that this is the right
choice for me. Yeah, because it would be so easy
to just give into those easy, comfortable thoughts like you
were saying, Yeah, do you think do you think about
(25:08):
what your life would have been like had you not
met your your soulmate John? I mean, do you think
that you would still be in that marriage or do
you think that it would have ended because of a
different situation.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah. I think about that question a lot. In the
reason is I don't know. I would like to think
that something would have been, you know, the catalyst or
the mirror to have me be like, wait a minute,
I don't know what that would have been. And I
felt a lot of shame about the fact that I had.
It required me to meet someone else to leave. Why
Why could I just garner the strength within myself and
(25:48):
be like bye? But you know, for whatever reason, in
the way that my story wanted to unfold, it required
me to meet someone else. And you know, we can't
really control how things happen. I think we can control
how I respond to them. And you know, I think
even though that may have not been how I would
(26:09):
have loved for it to play out, the one thing
that I did do is I was very honest and transparent.
Pretty immediately the night that I met John, I and
they left. I turned to my then husband. I said
to him, I just met a soulmate. And I wasn't thinking.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
You said, I just met a soulmate. I just met
a soul may not my soulmate.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Not my soul may I just sul and I wasn't, Like, honestly,
wasn't thinking in that moment, and I'm going to like
blow everything up and leave you. And like I was
just like the connection was so undeniable. I just said
to him, like, I just met a soulnate.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
And didn't he acknowledge it too?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
He said, I saw, and that was beautiful to witness.
So it was you know, I'm a big believer that
saying speaking the truth might be the hardest thing, but
it's even the kindest thing, even if we think, oh gosh,
I'm a terrible person. I am so selfish. I can't
believe I'm going to hurt this person that I care about.
But a girlfriend of mine, she said to me, as
(27:04):
I was going through this, and I called her, I
was like, God, I don't sort intendity. I was freaking out,
and she was like, listen, like it sounds like you're
coming to terms with the fact that the story of
your relationship doesn't match the reality of it. No one
benefits from someone being half in on a relationship, and
I believe liberation is a two way street. So if
you're self abandoning to the being the relationship, chances are
(27:25):
he's self abandoning. And it's like you're, you know, feeling trapped,
He's probably also feeling trapped. And so I really like
leaned into like, I'm just gonna name and finally say
the things that we haven't been saying. And I don't
know how what's going to happen, but I trust that
if I at least speak what's true, what's meant to
(27:45):
be will be.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
So did that happen right after you met John?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
The I met a soulmate happen right after I met John?
And then it was just kind of like, Okay, well,
my initial thinking was I'm not going to be with
John in this lifetime, maybe in another life. So I'm
going to make him my creative partner in this project
that I'm doing and brought him on to this land
project where you know you're going to detail on this
(28:10):
in the book without getting without rambling too much. I
quickly realized, wait that he's not just going to be
my creative partner. There's a lot more here.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Wait what did he Wait? What did he awaken in
you that you weren't feeling in your marriage? But what
was the feeling? How did you know I felt home
with him?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Would be the feeling like it was? It wasn't like
this like oh my god, I want you, it's like
so fire. It was just like this peace, this calm,
this like feeling of home, but also like feeling of
a liveness. And it was I think just the way
I felt with him was just like, oh, this is
what you know. And it's crazy to think that I
(28:48):
was a thirty five year old woman and hadn't really
experienced like true romantic connection that felt honest and real
and not like there were games. It was just like like, oh,
this is this is what real connection is supposed to
feel like was the feeling.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Honestly, I don't think it's that rare in this day
and age to be in your thirties and have not
experienced that feeling. And that's scary in itself.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
It is scary. Yeah. So I was just like, oh,
this this is what love is. This is what love
feels like. And even though I barely know this person.
In my mind was like, you're insane, he's a stranger.
But my body was like, no, this is this is love,
this is connection, this is true and I can't deny
that and I don't want to.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
So how long was it before you ended up just
you know, exiting your marriage knowing that that is what
had to be done. And what was that time in
the interim, like especially now working with him?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, it was about from the day I met John
four weeks later my husband and I closed our marriage,
and that in between time was like, I mean, it was.
It was crazy because you know, John and I are
first like, Okay, let's collaborate. Okay, let's name what this
connection is. Okay, you're feeling the same thing I'm feeling. Okay,
go tell husband, husband, I'm I'm getting feelings. And he's like, no, no,
(30:10):
you're getting feelings. You think I'm an idiot. I know
I can see. But also this has actually kind of,
you know, been helpful because now that he's meeting your
emotional needs, I have all this time to go do
all these work things I've been wanting to be focused on.
So it was like, I mean, honestly, it felt like
I was in a movie and I kept like looking
for cameras. I was like, is Ashton Kutcher gonna like
(30:32):
jump out and tell me that I'm punked? Is like? What? Like?
Is this like? It was? It was the most bizarre
thing because we were kind of all in on it
together and even acknowledging like no one would understand this
weird thing that we're all doing together, which is like
we the three of us happened to meet and maybe
like and I didn't know. I was like, maybe John's
a catalyst for our marriage to blow up but I
(30:53):
never see John again, or maybe John's the blow up
of my life. We're gonna find out.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Oh my god, but I like an up ended feeling.
I can't imagine. So four weeks, though, four weeks is
doable like that, I'm glad it was just four ways
and didn't go further. Yeah, that sounds like it would
just be ripping me apart.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot, but
it was also like, yeah, as a writer, I was
just like I'm taking notes. I han't here, and I'm
just gonna keep taking notes. It was crazy.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
You're like outside looking in at your life. Happening right
in real time. Do you believe in divine intervention like fate?
Like did this happen because of that?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
You know? I will say the experience made me believe
in fate more. And there were strange coincidences. You know,
my father visits me as a monarch butterfly and John's
father visits him as a ladybug, and like we kept
like it was monarch butterflies were visiting, ladybugs are visiting.
Shooting stars were happening in our presence. It felt like
(31:54):
the universe was like, hello, wake up and pay attention.
You haven't been listening. So I'm gonna be over the
top to kind of I'm going to drop another shooting
star in front of you and John so that you
guys are like, okay. So it was it was I
believed that I do believe that we were meant to meet.
And even what I said to John as it was
all going down, as crazy as this might sound, I
(32:16):
was like, I feel like our dads met in SpiritLand
or whatever you want to call it, and they've been
working to bring us together. Because it did feel like
super divine, super faded and like and how it all
unfolded it. It felt truly meant to be, you know,
I don't. I don't. I feel like I'm not the
words to describe it, but it did feel destined.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Yeah, And when you're in that open place where you're
experiencing new feelings and it's kind of cracking you open,
then I think you see things the signs so much
more clearly and easily. Absolutely, the shooting stars and the butterflies. Absolutely. Yeah.
(33:01):
I'm one of those people that's like, oh my gosh,
all the signs I'm seeing, all the signs that this
is the direction I should go, But maybe it's not.
Maybe it's just a butterfly coming bye. Like, you know,
could we put so much meaning on it? You know,
because we want to be supported in our decision, and
we'll find the ways that we need so that we
(33:23):
do make the right decision, whether it's fate or divine
intervention or just a Monday.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
You know, I do find I do, like, regardless of
when it meant. When I'm looking for signs, it usually
means I know something in my knowing and intuition and
I'm looking for someone else to tell me what I
know to be true is okay. So in some ways,
it was like I saw a butterfly. It means I'm
on the right path because I because I know I'm
(33:48):
on the right path. But maybe I shouldn't be on
the right path because society, your expectations, would tell me
I'm on the wrong path. And then I'm doing a
bad thing. But you know, maybe the butterfly tells me
I'm actually doing the self honoring thing. I'm gonna believe
I'm doing this self onforting thing.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
How did you heal from those feelings of oh, I'm
doing a bad thing?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
There was a lot of you know, what was interesting
is that leaving the marriage was one thing, but then
here I was. So six weeks after I met John,
I packed my things, I arrived in la where he
was living, and we'd committed our lives to each other,
and we had not yet kissed.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
And I was risky, very risky.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
I was on the other side of a nine year
pretty much sexless relationship, feeling very disconnected from that part
of myself, and John was not disconnected from that part
of himself. And so then all the stuff, all the
insecurities that I wasn't expecting, all the abandonment, anxieties that
had me be like, oh, this is why I chose
a safe relationships because I didn't want to have to
feel all of this and feel like a crazy person.
(34:50):
All of that came to the surface, and so that
brought me to therapy, and therapy was both like unpacking
kind of this childhood you know, this childhood trauma combined
with this like good girl conditioning around, Oh this is bad. Yeah,
you know what you did with selfish you you have
to hurt yourself so you don't hurt another, be the
(35:12):
nice person, don't rock the boat. You know. All of
that really like came to a head once John and
I would were together, which, as you can imagine, was
like really exciting for him.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah. I'm sure that was just a wild time in
your life too, of just all those things coming out
and opening up and those realizations but being caught up
in this love story. Yeah, you've said that journaling is
(35:52):
a big part of your recovery and your healing. Tell
us how you you are so into journaling, you do
it with other people, you provide that service, or how
does that work with your journaling?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Journaling has been I've been journaling since I was a kid.
But I also lead writing workshops, journaling and workshops to
help people to really create that practice with themselves. But
journaling for me is that safe place where I can
be as honest and as I possibly can, so that
I can see myself and know myself and know what
I think and know what I feel. And so, you know,
(36:26):
as a lot of as I was really waking up
to like oh I'm actually really unhappy in this marriage,
it became the place to just like name what was true.
I don't want to be in this marriage anymore. I
haven't felt you know, like whatever that is that the
journal is that place for you. And yeah, questions can
be helpful for people. So some questions that I suggest
are like what truth am I afraid to say out loud?
(36:49):
And why or where am I disappointing myself so I
don't have to disappoint another.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Those will get you in there, still in there.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yeah, we're just like what's alive in me? You know?
Can it can be if you want. It depends on
like how deep you and how quick you know what's
a lie to me? And so, you know, I find
that like being brave on the page helps me be
braver in real life.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Do you go back and read old journals sometimes?
Speaker 2 (37:14):
You know? And I love Julia Cameron The Artist's Way.
You know, she says three stream of consciousness pages every
morning just to like get stuff, get the gunk out
of the way, and she tells you not to read
your pages, but you know, I sometimes go back. I
think it's it can be helpful. Or as I was
writing this book, I went back on my journalism a
lot because it was like the I was helped me
(37:35):
like have the pulse of what I was really feeling.
So sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, I remember I just wasn't ready and I would
sort of kind of take a peek in there and
then I just feel bad about myself all over again
for whatever the issue was, whatever it was that I
was working on. And it wasn't until I was like
in my fifties that I was let me crack open
those journals and really get to know that person at
(38:02):
that point in her life. And it's it's incredibly telling,
you know. And you do learn a lot about yourself
through journaling, absolutely, yeah, and just get it out, get
it out of your head. A lot of people are
going to have different opinions and they're going to understand
the situation differently, and you know, some people don't understand it.
(38:24):
What do you want your readers to take away from
your book?
Speaker 2 (38:28):
I want them to listen to the quiet voice within
them that knows and make their life a reflection of
that knowing, and whether they're in a job that doesn't
that they feel trapped in, or if there's a relationship
they've outgrown friendship love. You know, I feel like we
all get to we often get to a moment in
our lives where we realize like, ooh, this isn't quite it,
(38:50):
and I have been ignoring myself or I've been abandoning myself,
or I haven't been honoring myself because I'm afraid mostly
of what other people are going to think. And so really,
I hope the book is an imation to like come
back home to self and to honor what you know
to be true and to let your life be a
reflection of that. So like, yes, the book is this
like love story, but really the love story was just
(39:11):
a vehicle for this self love journey for me and
ultimately the self liberation story. So I hope people it's
a vehicle for people to liberate themselves from the cages
of their own making.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
I love that. Wow, Perfect Love Well is out now.
You can see Amber Thursday, August fourteenth at Zibbi's Bookshop
in Santa Monica and check out her website for other
stops she'll be making on our book tour. Thank you
so much, Amber for being so vulnerable and bringing you know,
awareness to something that is I'm scary. It's scary to
(39:44):
come out and be so honest about that. Yeah, thank you,
This is much, but it's beautiful that you did.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Thank you think.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Take care.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Are you working on finding yourself post divorce? Need some
advice on how to fe figure out your new life?
Call us or email us. All the info is in
the show notes, follow us on the socials. Make sure
to rate and review the podcast. All the things you
know you're supposed to do with a podcast, I do
Part two an iHeartRadio podcasts where falling in love is
(40:18):
the main objective.
Welcome back to I Do Part two. It's one of
your hosts, Jenny Garth, jumping in today. I'm intrigued by
the conversation I'm going to have today. Sometimes when people
break up or divorce, it's complicated, and sometimes there's a
third person involved. My guest today is an author, a speaker,
(00:38):
and a teacher known for her books Choose Wonder over
Worry and the Answers Are Within You. Her new memoir,
Lovable is out now and I can't wait to talk
to her about love, marriage, relationships, divine intervention, shame, guilt, healing, oh,
all the things, so much, so much so, please welcome
Amber Rat to the podcast. Hello, Hey, Amber's oh so exciting.
(01:02):
You have a new book. The title of your new
memoir is lovable, and that is a word that carries
so much. So let's just start with this question. Have
you always felt like you were lovable?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I have not always felt lovable. But what's interesting is
that I don't know if I would necessarily define it
that way. I wouldn't have thought, oh, I don't know
if I'm lovable. It was for me kind of this
like unconscious story that was driving so much of my
behavior and motivation without me even realizing it. I didn't
realize that I was trying to accomplish all these things.
(01:37):
And I had this ambition in my career because I
felt unworthy of love. I didn't realize that I was
going after a particular kind of unhealthy relationship because I
didn't feel lovable, and I thought if I could convince
them that I was worthy of love, then I would
finally be enough. Though no, I haven't always felt lovable.
(01:59):
But it's interesting all the ways it was sneaking up
in my life without me even realizing it.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Right right when you were younger, What were your examples
of love when you were growing up, like things that
you saw with your parents.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, I didn't have healthy models of love.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
So happens.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, my father actually left my mom and I when
I was about two and a half and he got
into a car accident when I was three. He got
behind the wheel of a car under the influence his
best friend, who was getting married the next day, said
very sadly died in the crash. But my father had
a traumatic brain injury, which my mom found out about
(02:39):
on the news, and then he was in a hospital
from when I was three until I was twelve, but he,
you know, never regained full consciousness. But the reason I
share all this is because I remember, you know, one
of my I have two core memories of him. The
first was when I was right before he got in
(02:59):
the car ACXI and he called me and said, you know,
I'm sorry I haven't been around, but no matter what,
I'll always love you. And that's one of my first
core memories as a kid and my first memory of him.
And then fast forward to I'm nine years old and
I'm meeting him in the hospital and here i'm, you know,
now a young girl who wants nothing more than to
(03:20):
feel that sort of love and connection with her father.
And so I go to meet him, and of course
he can't meet me. He has a brain injury. But
little me didn't fully understand, and so she like walks
into the hospital room just like can you see me?
Can you know me? Can you love me? And you know,
he can't meet me there. But I end up making
(03:41):
up a story that I tell my friends at the playground,
which is that the moment I walked in the room,
he knew my name. He said I love you to
me and only me, and you know, I share the
story in the book, because when I was reflecting on it,
I realized that the you know, for little me, that
reality was so painful to look at that I had
(04:01):
to make up a story to make the experience.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Okay, oh that breaks my heart. Man. What was your
relationship with your mom?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Like? My mom had me so young, she was twenty one.
She you know, my mom was this like powerhouse entrepreneur.
You know, she had all men working for her. She
worked in the field of construction. She was like a
badass woman. Was she a contractor?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Was she an architect?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
What was she was more like a She was an
interior like interior contractor. So she did all like interiors, flooring,
window like everything inside of a developers in architects. But
so like I had this like strong career figure who,
like you know, couldn't figure out love, and so I
(04:51):
had to a stepdad and I had you know, so
my momels of love were kind of like, I don't
want any of this. But the only thing I knew,
the look out, of course, was like romantic comedies, these
grandeur expressions of love. This must be what love is like.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, I think my girls grew up believing that that's
how real life was going to be too when it
came to relationships and love stories. It's just not like that.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
No, it's just not like that.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah. I mean when I was younger, I saw a
real love between my mom and dad. It wasn't always perfect,
you know. My mom struggled with her insecurities and jealousy.
And it was weird because my mom too was a
very capable, strong entrepreneur out there with her own business
(05:44):
and really very independent. But then I would see that
other side of her that was modeling for me, jealousy,
and also I was at the other end of a
lot of messaging that things were supposed to look like
they looked in Cinderella, like you were supposed to be
put up on a pedestal and just revered and you know,
(06:05):
cherished all the time. And it's not a very realistic,
you know, example of what it's really going to be like.
So yeah, I think we all have we all come
into like our time when we start having those relationships
and learning about love independently and we have to figure
it all out and wide through all the muck that
(06:29):
we've been fed by society or our parents or whatever
it was. Our examples but yeah, it's it's an interesting
journey to find out, like, oh, that's not how it
really works. Yeah, in your book, you paint the picture
of a couple that looks on the outside like they
(06:50):
have it all together right, but apparently behind closed doors,
the relationship was not what you needed it to be,
what it needed to be. It was sexless, there was
a lack of emotion and that depth that comes with that.
I think a lot of our audience can understand that
(07:11):
and can relate because that's what happens, you know, like
the decline of a marriage usually ends up with those characteristics.
Why do you think as women we take on this
sort of emotional burden to make everything look fine on
the outside.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, you know, I think partly because of you know,
a it wasn't modeled to us what it's supposed to
look like, of what true lasting, genuine love two people
putting in the word, two people showing up consistently. And
so I can speak for myself, you know, I look
to the media, I look to movies of like, Okay,
it looks like this, so you have to paint this picture.
(07:51):
And so I think I felt pressure to make my
life match that ideal and you know, I did that
because I was trying to convince myself it was right.
And I was afraid from the very beginning to listen
to the inner, the quiet, persistent voice within me that
was like, are you sure this is it? Are you
(08:12):
sure it's okay that you don't really have sexual chemistry
with him and he feels more like a friend than
a lover. Are you sure that's okay? And I just
pushed it down, pushed it down, pushed it down, because
you know, I was in my first marriage, I was
in my mid twenties. I thought this was what I
was supposed to do. You know, women are supposed to
now get married and do the thing and have the
kids and yeah. So I think there was both the
(08:33):
societal pressure to get it right combined with you know,
not knowing how to face what was missing in the relationship,
not knowing how to navigate those conversations.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, because you feel the feelings, You feel the sort
of emptiness or the area where you're like, where that
question comes from? What is this? What it's really? Is
this it?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:05):
And it's probably very hard, I know, it's very hard
to start really listening to that voice because what you
want to do is shut it down and get rid
of it, because I feel ashamed of those feelings. I
can imagine you did too, Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
It's like, oh God, no, don't make me. This is
going to be hard. I'm going to be able, even
though my life doesn't feel quite right right now, having
to address this and face that, Oh, don't make me
do that, that's so uncomfortable. Yeah. So I think that's
part of it as well.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
I mean, for me, when I was going through a divorce,
I really struggle with that. And I think there's, you know,
that that element of how it's been portrayed in the
press and how people know it, not you know, not
just me, but like the world seeing it as one
thing but me experiencing it as another. And then just
(10:02):
the feeling not only of the sheer disappointment for the kids,
but then because you didn't you didn't have kids with
your first husband.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I did not, thank God, Thank gosh.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, that's a whole nother mess to deal with. But yeah,
I remember just feeling like I'm letting everyone down, not
just me, not just my kids, not my family members,
his family members, but the entire world. And that was
just so much pressure Yeah, so much pressure. Yeah, you
(10:38):
really open up in your book about your struggle for
intimacy in your marriage, and I think that's really brave,
because that too, can be really shrouded in shame and
embarrassment and like there's something wrong with you. You know.
I know that you talked about the fact that your
partner would shut you down. Did that resonate with you
(11:02):
as rejection? Because I've been in that situation, and for
whatever the reason is, it's still there's still something inside
of me that says, ouch, you know, is there something
wrong with me?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah? I think I internalized it a lot, and even
looking back at the relationship and all the parts of
it that weren't working, I never pointed to the relationship
as the problem. I was like, maybe I'm working too much.
Maybe I'm not you know, getting enough downtime. Maybe we're
not supposed to live in New York. Maybe I like women.
Maybe you know. It was like all the questions, all
(11:37):
the questions of self of like why am I not
feeling intimacy, Why am I not feeling connected to my partner?
Why isn't this working? Oh, I must be broken, I
must be the problem. If I can just fix me
if I can just fix us, if I can just
It was like I was obsessively trying to figure it
out instead of being like, oh, maybe we're not that compatible.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah you know, and you don't want to jump to
that one.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah maybe you know we're more friends than we are lovers.
Maybe we you know, maybe this isn't the right fit.
That felt yeah, scarier to look at. And so it was,
you know, I was always the issue, and in terms
of seeing it, you know what's interesting. I think because
of my background and because of some of my you know,
(12:24):
my abandonment experiences as a young girl, I decided unconsciously
to make safe choices in love and I never wanted
to feel the longing or the desire for someone who
couldn't meet me. And so I think I chose my
ex because he was more of a friend, He was
safe in some ways. It felt like a you know,
(12:46):
a choice where I won't get hurt again. And because
you know, the intimacy and that chemistry wasn't really there
from the beginning, I kind of was like, oh, well,
maybe we'll figure that out eventually. It's okay, Like I
you know, feel safe year in a lot of ways,
So while it like, there were absolutely moments where it
felt like a rejection and I felt like what am
(13:06):
I doing wrong? But I also think I like knew
deep down that I had I was like waking up
to the fact that I had chosen a safe partner
out of fear of being left again.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, I can relate my first, uh, my first marriage,
this is my third one. My first marriage was the
same way, Like I felt like my father was he
was really ill, and I felt like he was going
to leave me, And I chose somebody that felt safe
in certain ways, but I didn't even recognize the ways
(13:42):
in which he wasn't safe at all. Yes, because I
wanted All that mattered to me was that feeling of safety,
that like big strong figure next to me, behind me,
with me, you know. So it's definitely something I think
that we make mistakes, you know, when we learn from
and even like in the ebbs and flows of a
(14:03):
real of a marriage, like there are days upon days
when you're like is this right? Or like am I
are we too? Are we just roommates?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Are we?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
What's do we really connect? And then when you stop
all of those spending thoughts and you start to focus
on how can you make the relationship what you want?
Like what work you can do from your side to
see if those feelings change, those dynamics change. But I
(14:35):
think it's natural to have all those doubts and all
those questions because I don't know about you, but like,
being with one person for the rest of my life
is like that is that normal? Is that doable? Do
you ever? Do you ever feel that way? Like were
you ever like maybe just marriage isn't for me?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
You know that it wasn't. That wasn't what came up
for me. Mine was more like how do I like,
can we continue to grow together? And how do we
continue to grow together? And fearing that we might grow apart.
But I think I was the kind of person who
like wanted marriage and wanted that, like the idea of
a long term commitment was actually exciting to me. I
might be more anxiously attached in the attachment styles. I
(15:22):
was like, I want closeness, and it's more like what
if it goes away? So I think that that's more
what I've had to contend with. But I totally hear
you on the like is this is it really one person?
And you know and it's so funny because like marriages
go through seasons, like I you know what, the story
I tell my book is how I met my person
(15:44):
well married, And that was what finally woke me up
to realizing, wait a minute, I'm in a fake marriage.
And I didn't even know I was how much I
was pretending. But you know in this, you know, we've
just had a in the in my second marriage, we've
now you know, we've had a kid. We have a
ten month old, and you know, it's not the like
sexy long drives, romantic nights out. It's like logistics, who's
(16:07):
doing this? You know, It's it's such a different season
of the marriage. And there are moments where I'm like,
are we ever going to get that like that you
know back in Yeah? Right, But I feel like it
like it's it's it deepened, it evolves into something different,
and I think, are like, what we're doing now is
(16:29):
how do we keep that connection alive in this season
of like diapers and sleepless nights and all of the
agitation that comes from not sleeping.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, I mean people could definitely relate to that if
you if you have a puppy or if you have kids.
You know, the focus is elsewhere, and it can really
chisel away at those connections, those those intimate, sweet things
that you shared when those responsibilities weren't there.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Your childist is like, why do I like you again? No?
I love you, but why do I like you right now? Right?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
I'm curious when you were talking about this, did you
have that feeling with your first husband in the beginning.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
No, it was very different. It was, oh, he feels
like a friend. I feel safe here. And I resonated
so deeply to what you said where It's like I
thought he was so safe and I didn't yet realize
all the ways in which I felt unsafe and like that.
You know, that chipping away came later. But what I
am very grateful for is that was a nine year
relationship and I think because I felt safe enough, it
(17:44):
was actually a massive moment for my career, my creative expression.
You know, I became an author, I wrote many books.
I really like, found and discovered myself. I did deep work.
I understood my wounding. I you know, learned about attachment trauma.
You know, it's that relationship enabled me to do all
of that, and I feel like kind of become the
(18:05):
woman who was ready for extraordinary and safe love. And
so in some ways that prepared me that relationship, as
odd as that might sound.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Was he doing work also while you were doing that?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
That was part of the challenge is he was not
doing the same work, and so I felt like there
was like a mismatch in depth and I, yeah, I
just that was my biggest begging of him, like please,
like we you look at you know, when you look
at your stuff?
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, I know. And you can't make your partner do that.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
And sometimes they don't do it, They just won't ever
do it. But sometimes something happens and they have that
moment where they're like, oo, I see my part in this.
I really need to figure out why I am What
am I doing in this team? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
And I had a therapist say something really insightful to me.
She was like, this is interesting. Who does he remind
you of? Because it sounds like you've picked the same
person who's familiar but new and you're trying to resolve
the wounds of your past. Who are you always trying
to change in your life? And I was like, oh,
my mom, I know. So she's like, you're not saying, hey, husband,
(19:21):
do the work, please work on yourself so that I
you know, I'll I know you'll still be here to
take care of me. You're saying, hey, mom, please do
the work so I know you'll still be here to
take care of me. And I realize like, oh, I
was like, oh my god, my husband is a surrogate
for my How my mother wound?
Speaker 1 (19:37):
I hate that so much. It's so hard because that's
the last person you really want to be thinking about
when you're looking into the eyes of your spouse, like
it's not good.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
No. I was like, I don't have daddy issues. I
don't have mommy issues. And my therapist is like, uh huh,
you're never trying to change or fixure of mom.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Oh man, that I mean that at the core of
any fraud, you know, you can't change or fix anyone.
So yeah, that's you're never going to get very far
with that challenge. We hear from a lot of people
on this podcast that they knew their marriage wasn't right
(20:17):
long before it actually ended, whether it was you know,
near the end, or even if it was before they
walked down the aisle or as they're walking down the aisle.
There's those thoughts, you know, I always wonder am I
these thoughts that on, these questioning thoughts about like have
I picked right? Is this forever?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Is?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Can I cohabitate with this person for the rest of
my life? I always think, is that is that a
real red flag? Is that an actual red flag? Or
is that just my mind just trying to destroy something good?
How did you, like, cause I'm sure you felt those
feelings at times too, Like how did you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah? I was I was one who walked down the
aisle thinking I don't know how long this is going
to last? Oh god, it was, you know, But I
was also like, but well through a great party.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
You see.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
If that sounds like, that's how I rationalize it in
the moment, you know. I think my struggle discerning between
intuition and fear is also part of what kept me
in it, because I kept saying, Oh, maybe this is
just fear, Maybe this is just my mind. But the
truth is is that when I was alone and I
was still, and I'm you know, I'm a writer, and
(21:31):
I was a pen and paper, my pen would say
this is not right. And that came from a quiet
voice that came from like a knowing voice, that came
from a calm, peaceful place inside of me, not a
racing mind. That's like, you know, there's a different energy
to anxiety and fear than there is to intuition and knowing,
and so the intuition and knowing would trigger the fear
(21:54):
of like, oh God, what are you going to do?
Everyone's going to be mad at you. What are people
going to think? You can't cancel your wedding? People worth
flying halfway across the world. You just spent so much
money on this. That was the fear that was reacting
to the knowing, And it was the fear that kept me,
you know, so concerned about what everyone else would think
and then not making choices that reflected my my authenticity.
(22:16):
And so the work for me as a like i'd
consider myself kind of a harmonizer and a people pleaser.
It became realizing that I have to tolerate people's disappointment
and disapproval of me, and that was going to be
my greatest edge, because so long as I was trying
to make everyone happy, I was only going to make
(22:37):
myself unhappy. If I was just trying not to disappoint everyone,
I was going to continue to have to live with
my own disappointment. So I realized I had to instead
of like tolerating feeling disconnected in my marriage or like
I'm unfulfilled, I was going to have to tolerate the
discomfort of other people being disappointed. And so, you know,
once I knew the knowing was the knowing, it wasn't
(22:59):
the trubble for me wasn't so much hearing the knowing,
it was actually acting.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
On it, right, because he carried around the knowing for
a while.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Care out of the knowing for a while, and I
was really like, just people, this is going to hurt
someone that I do care about, and this is gonna
upset people, and people are gonna have a lot of
thoughts and feelings about it. And you know, our nervous
system can only tolerate so much. And so I think
part of why we stay as long as we do
is that our nervous system doesn't have doesn't yet have
(23:27):
the capacity to handle, you know, canceling, let's see, canceling
a wedding, spending all that money, doing all those things,
And so we stay because it's actually more comfortable to
stay than it is to face the hard but true choice.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Right, Yeah, for sure, I mean I felt that way
for sure with my first marriage when it was over
very short lived marriage, by the way, when I knew
that it wasn't right, and then I started moving in
that direction. And then I met someone else and that
made it a lot more clear. And that's you know,
(24:06):
that always happens when you meet someone else in a
breakup or relationship ending. It's a lot easier because you're like, oh,
I can focus on that, and that feels so good.
I'm going to go to that, you know, instead of
thinking about the earthquake that you just you know, the
big show that just exploded in your wake. And I
remember feeling like the worst feeling of knowing that I
(24:27):
was hurting someone ultimately, Yeah, and that does that can
keep you right where you are, because that is a
very big I choose me moment, and it's it sounds
selfish m hm. It looks to other people and even
internally like grappling with is this the most selfish thing
(24:48):
I've ever done? Yeah, it's hard to like you got
to just love yourself through that, I guess, and just
keep you know, reminding yourself that this is the right
choice for me. Yeah, because it would be so easy
to just give into those easy, comfortable thoughts like you
were saying, Yeah, do you think do you think about
(25:08):
what your life would have been like had you not
met your your soulmate John? I mean, do you think
that you would still be in that marriage or do
you think that it would have ended because of a
different situation.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah. I think about that question a lot. In the
reason is I don't know. I would like to think
that something would have been, you know, the catalyst or
the mirror to have me be like, wait a minute,
I don't know what that would have been. And I
felt a lot of shame about the fact that I had.
It required me to meet someone else to leave. Why
Why could I just garner the strength within myself and
(25:48):
be like bye? But you know, for whatever reason, in
the way that my story wanted to unfold, it required
me to meet someone else. And you know, we can't
really control how things happen. I think we can control
how I respond to them. And you know, I think
even though that may have not been how I would
(26:09):
have loved for it to play out, the one thing
that I did do is I was very honest and transparent.
Pretty immediately the night that I met John, I and
they left. I turned to my then husband. I said
to him, I just met a soulmate. And I wasn't thinking.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
You said, I just met a soulmate. I just met
a soul may not my soulmate.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Not my soul may I just sul and I wasn't, Like, honestly,
wasn't thinking in that moment, and I'm going to like
blow everything up and leave you. And like I was
just like the connection was so undeniable. I just said
to him, like, I just met a soulnate.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
And didn't he acknowledge it too?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
He said, I saw, and that was beautiful to witness.
So it was you know, I'm a big believer that
saying speaking the truth might be the hardest thing, but
it's even the kindest thing, even if we think, oh gosh,
I'm a terrible person. I am so selfish. I can't
believe I'm going to hurt this person that I care about.
But a girlfriend of mine, she said to me, as
(27:04):
I was going through this, and I called her, I
was like, God, I don't sort intendity. I was freaking out,
and she was like, listen, like it sounds like you're
coming to terms with the fact that the story of
your relationship doesn't match the reality of it. No one
benefits from someone being half in on a relationship, and
I believe liberation is a two way street. So if
you're self abandoning to the being the relationship, chances are
(27:25):
he's self abandoning. And it's like you're, you know, feeling trapped,
He's probably also feeling trapped. And so I really like
leaned into like, I'm just gonna name and finally say
the things that we haven't been saying. And I don't
know how what's going to happen, but I trust that
if I at least speak what's true, what's meant to
(27:45):
be will be.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
So did that happen right after you met John?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
The I met a soulmate happen right after I met John?
And then it was just kind of like, Okay, well,
my initial thinking was I'm not going to be with
John in this lifetime, maybe in another life. So I'm
going to make him my creative partner in this project
that I'm doing and brought him on to this land
project where you know you're going to detail on this
(28:10):
in the book without getting without rambling too much. I
quickly realized, wait that he's not just going to be
my creative partner. There's a lot more here.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Wait what did he Wait? What did he awaken in
you that you weren't feeling in your marriage? But what
was the feeling? How did you know I felt home
with him?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Would be the feeling like it was? It wasn't like
this like oh my god, I want you, it's like
so fire. It was just like this peace, this calm,
this like feeling of home, but also like feeling of
a liveness. And it was I think just the way
I felt with him was just like, oh, this is
what you know. And it's crazy to think that I
(28:48):
was a thirty five year old woman and hadn't really
experienced like true romantic connection that felt honest and real
and not like there were games. It was just like like, oh,
this is this is what real connection is supposed to
feel like was the feeling.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Honestly, I don't think it's that rare in this day
and age to be in your thirties and have not
experienced that feeling. And that's scary in itself.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
It is scary. Yeah. So I was just like, oh,
this this is what love is. This is what love
feels like. And even though I barely know this person.
In my mind was like, you're insane, he's a stranger.
But my body was like, no, this is this is love,
this is connection, this is true and I can't deny
that and I don't want to.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
So how long was it before you ended up just
you know, exiting your marriage knowing that that is what
had to be done. And what was that time in
the interim, like especially now working with him?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, it was about from the day I met John
four weeks later my husband and I closed our marriage,
and that in between time was like, I mean, it was.
It was crazy because you know, John and I are
first like, Okay, let's collaborate. Okay, let's name what this
connection is. Okay, you're feeling the same thing I'm feeling. Okay,
go tell husband, husband, I'm I'm getting feelings. And he's like, no, no,
(30:10):
you're getting feelings. You think I'm an idiot. I know
I can see. But also this has actually kind of,
you know, been helpful because now that he's meeting your
emotional needs, I have all this time to go do
all these work things I've been wanting to be focused on.
So it was like, I mean, honestly, it felt like
I was in a movie and I kept like looking
for cameras. I was like, is Ashton Kutcher gonna like
(30:32):
jump out and tell me that I'm punked? Is like? What? Like?
Is this like? It was? It was the most bizarre
thing because we were kind of all in on it
together and even acknowledging like no one would understand this
weird thing that we're all doing together, which is like
we the three of us happened to meet and maybe
like and I didn't know. I was like, maybe John's
a catalyst for our marriage to blow up but I
(30:53):
never see John again, or maybe John's the blow up
of my life. We're gonna find out.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Oh my god, but I like an up ended feeling.
I can't imagine. So four weeks, though, four weeks is
doable like that, I'm glad it was just four ways
and didn't go further. Yeah, that sounds like it would
just be ripping me apart.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot, but
it was also like, yeah, as a writer, I was
just like I'm taking notes. I han't here, and I'm
just gonna keep taking notes. It was crazy.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
You're like outside looking in at your life. Happening right
in real time. Do you believe in divine intervention like fate?
Like did this happen because of that?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
You know? I will say the experience made me believe
in fate more. And there were strange coincidences. You know,
my father visits me as a monarch butterfly and John's
father visits him as a ladybug, and like we kept
like it was monarch butterflies were visiting, ladybugs are visiting.
Shooting stars were happening in our presence. It felt like
(31:54):
the universe was like, hello, wake up and pay attention.
You haven't been listening. So I'm gonna be over the
top to kind of I'm going to drop another shooting
star in front of you and John so that you
guys are like, okay. So it was it was I
believed that I do believe that we were meant to meet.
And even what I said to John as it was
all going down, as crazy as this might sound, I
(32:16):
was like, I feel like our dads met in SpiritLand
or whatever you want to call it, and they've been
working to bring us together. Because it did feel like
super divine, super faded and like and how it all
unfolded it. It felt truly meant to be, you know,
I don't. I don't. I feel like I'm not the
words to describe it, but it did feel destined.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Yeah, And when you're in that open place where you're
experiencing new feelings and it's kind of cracking you open,
then I think you see things the signs so much
more clearly and easily. Absolutely, the shooting stars and the butterflies. Absolutely. Yeah.
(33:01):
I'm one of those people that's like, oh my gosh,
all the signs I'm seeing, all the signs that this
is the direction I should go, But maybe it's not.
Maybe it's just a butterfly coming bye. Like, you know,
could we put so much meaning on it? You know,
because we want to be supported in our decision, and
we'll find the ways that we need so that we
(33:23):
do make the right decision, whether it's fate or divine
intervention or just a Monday.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
You know, I do find I do, like, regardless of
when it meant. When I'm looking for signs, it usually
means I know something in my knowing and intuition and
I'm looking for someone else to tell me what I
know to be true is okay. So in some ways,
it was like I saw a butterfly. It means I'm
on the right path because I because I know I'm
(33:48):
on the right path. But maybe I shouldn't be on
the right path because society, your expectations, would tell me
I'm on the wrong path. And then I'm doing a
bad thing. But you know, maybe the butterfly tells me
I'm actually doing the self honoring thing. I'm gonna believe
I'm doing this self onforting thing.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
How did you heal from those feelings of oh, I'm
doing a bad thing?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
There was a lot of you know, what was interesting
is that leaving the marriage was one thing, but then
here I was. So six weeks after I met John,
I packed my things, I arrived in la where he
was living, and we'd committed our lives to each other,
and we had not yet kissed.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
And I was risky, very risky.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
I was on the other side of a nine year
pretty much sexless relationship, feeling very disconnected from that part
of myself, and John was not disconnected from that part
of himself. And so then all the stuff, all the
insecurities that I wasn't expecting, all the abandonment, anxieties that
had me be like, oh, this is why I chose
a safe relationships because I didn't want to have to
feel all of this and feel like a crazy person.
(34:50):
All of that came to the surface, and so that
brought me to therapy, and therapy was both like unpacking
kind of this childhood you know, this childhood trauma combined
with this like good girl conditioning around, Oh this is bad. Yeah,
you know what you did with selfish you you have
to hurt yourself so you don't hurt another, be the
(35:12):
nice person, don't rock the boat. You know. All of
that really like came to a head once John and
I would were together, which, as you can imagine, was
like really exciting for him.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah. I'm sure that was just a wild time in
your life too, of just all those things coming out
and opening up and those realizations but being caught up
in this love story. Yeah, you've said that journaling is
(35:52):
a big part of your recovery and your healing. Tell
us how you you are so into journaling, you do
it with other people, you provide that service, or how
does that work with your journaling?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Journaling has been I've been journaling since I was a kid.
But I also lead writing workshops, journaling and workshops to
help people to really create that practice with themselves. But
journaling for me is that safe place where I can
be as honest and as I possibly can, so that
I can see myself and know myself and know what
I think and know what I feel. And so, you know,
(36:26):
as a lot of as I was really waking up
to like oh I'm actually really unhappy in this marriage,
it became the place to just like name what was true.
I don't want to be in this marriage anymore. I
haven't felt you know, like whatever that is that the
journal is that place for you. And yeah, questions can
be helpful for people. So some questions that I suggest
are like what truth am I afraid to say out loud?
(36:49):
And why or where am I disappointing myself so I
don't have to disappoint another.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Those will get you in there, still in there.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yeah, we're just like what's alive in me? You know?
Can it can be if you want. It depends on
like how deep you and how quick you know what's
a lie to me? And so, you know, I find
that like being brave on the page helps me be
braver in real life.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Do you go back and read old journals sometimes?
Speaker 2 (37:14):
You know? And I love Julia Cameron The Artist's Way.
You know, she says three stream of consciousness pages every
morning just to like get stuff, get the gunk out
of the way, and she tells you not to read
your pages, but you know, I sometimes go back. I
think it's it can be helpful. Or as I was
writing this book, I went back on my journalism a
lot because it was like the I was helped me
(37:35):
like have the pulse of what I was really feeling.
So sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, I remember I just wasn't ready and I would
sort of kind of take a peek in there and
then I just feel bad about myself all over again
for whatever the issue was, whatever it was that I
was working on. And it wasn't until I was like
in my fifties that I was let me crack open
those journals and really get to know that person at
(38:02):
that point in her life. And it's it's incredibly telling,
you know. And you do learn a lot about yourself
through journaling, absolutely, yeah, and just get it out, get
it out of your head. A lot of people are
going to have different opinions and they're going to understand
the situation differently, and you know, some people don't understand it.
(38:24):
What do you want your readers to take away from
your book?
Speaker 2 (38:28):
I want them to listen to the quiet voice within
them that knows and make their life a reflection of
that knowing, and whether they're in a job that doesn't
that they feel trapped in, or if there's a relationship
they've outgrown friendship love. You know, I feel like we
all get to we often get to a moment in
our lives where we realize like, ooh, this isn't quite it,
(38:50):
and I have been ignoring myself or I've been abandoning myself,
or I haven't been honoring myself because I'm afraid mostly
of what other people are going to think. And so really,
I hope the book is an imation to like come
back home to self and to honor what you know
to be true and to let your life be a
reflection of that. So like, yes, the book is this
like love story, but really the love story was just
(39:11):
a vehicle for this self love journey for me and
ultimately the self liberation story. So I hope people it's
a vehicle for people to liberate themselves from the cages
of their own making.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
I love that. Wow, Perfect Love Well is out now.
You can see Amber Thursday, August fourteenth at Zibbi's Bookshop
in Santa Monica and check out her website for other
stops she'll be making on our book tour. Thank you
so much, Amber for being so vulnerable and bringing you know,
awareness to something that is I'm scary. It's scary to
(39:44):
come out and be so honest about that. Yeah, thank you,
This is much, but it's beautiful that you did.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Thank you think.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Take care.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Are you working on finding yourself post divorce? Need some
advice on how to fe figure out your new life?
Call us or email us. All the info is in
the show notes, follow us on the socials. Make sure
to rate and review the podcast. All the things you
know you're supposed to do with a podcast, I do
Part two an iHeartRadio podcasts where falling in love is
(40:18):
the main objective.
Hosts And Creators
Tori Spelling
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