Andy Slater

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Bob left That's Podcast. My
guest this week is the andys Later. You know him
as a manager, a record company executive. Now he's got
another feather in his cap. He is the writer and
director of the new movie Echo in the Canyon. Andy, Hi, Bob,
Good to see you man. Okay, so how'd you come

(00:31):
up with the idea for this film? Well, I was
a journalist, you know, in the late seventies and eighties
of rock Critic, and the idea of the of people
listening to each other and these records being traded back
and forth was always there. But you know, you come
to a point in your life where you sort of
reflect back on what you've done, as you know, in

(00:53):
an attempt to go forward. And that moment came for
me when I was looking at this film. I had
just left Capital, which we will describe as fired and uh,
and I saw this film called Model Shop. Okay, just
to stop there for a secure because that's featured in
the film and you talk about it, but it was

(01:14):
kind of hard for me to google it. And the
reason I asked this is how did you find it?
Jacob and I were sitting on my couch trying to
figure out what we were doing. Jacob Dilan and I
was sitting on my couch and and we saw this
thing on TCM. So it was completely random. And you know,
in the in the film, we start seeing all these
places where we would go all the time, and it

(01:35):
was like, you know, the farmers market and in Libreya
and Santa Monica and and it just looked beautiful. It
looked like and it was not you know, shot in
the nine sixty seven by a French director named Jacques
Demy and and it reminded us of, you know, the
reason that we came here in the beginnings of the
music scene. You know, you never know how something's going

(01:56):
to inspire you, and so for sure, and so the
sight of that made us think of music. And so
we said, oh, you know, you know, you know the birds,
you know that bells of Rimney. I love it. And
we started talking about all these songs, and I said,
let's let's go, what if we do a record of
these songs? And Jacob was like, well, which songs? And
then we got out of guitar and we started listening

(02:18):
to the songs and and that, and then it evolved
from there. Okay, do you play the guitar? How? Well, well,
I've been playing since some fourteen. And Peter Buck from
r M and I had a band. How did they
come together? Well, we were the only two guys at
Longstreet Hall at Emory University that had guitars, and and
I had a Carlo Rebelli stratocaster, which was the set

(02:41):
cheap Samash version. You know, I had a Hendrix white
and and Peter had a real Fender stratocaster. And so
we would jam and you know, in our in our
dorm and and it's funny because we would, you know,
we would play like in the midnight hour, and you
know when you're jam with somebody, I play chords and
then you play lead, and then you play chords, and
I believe and everything Peter did ounded like last Train
to Clarkson, and he made a career out of it.

(03:03):
You know. Okay, but when did you realize this was
not your path? Well? I you know, it all goes
back to the hot Tuna story, Bob. I mean, our
audience is not here as part of that story. Well
that's a good story. So in nineteen seventy five, my

(03:27):
friend Larry Dale and I, who were freshman member university,
wanted to go see Hot Tuna play and they were
playing at the Gore Ballroom in in Atlanta, and we
U said, look, we gotta go down there at five o'clock.
We gotta get online early because we want to be
in the front. So we got there at five o'clock
and it looked like nobody was there. I thought they
canceled the show. Maybe that's how they do it in Atlanta,
but at least in the seventies. So we went. We

(03:48):
went around to the back and and we saw these
boxes that said Jefferson Airplane on them, and we said
to this guy, hey, are those official Jeffer Jeffers boxes?
And the guy said yeah, want to lift them up
those stairs? And I said could we? So Larry Dale
and I we lift the boxes up the stairs, and
you know, we load their gear in, and I say

(04:09):
to the guy, hey, do you think if we come
back after we could we could carry these boxes out.
The guy go sure, So we're all static we're lifting
Jefferson NEVNY boxes. Anyway, after at the end of the night,
we helped them load their gear and we say, look,
you guys are playing at the Academy of Music in
New York. Do you think you would get us in

(04:29):
next week if we come and help, you know, help
you load those boxes? And said, yeah, look, if you're there,
sure we'll get your X sage. Because the Vinny, the
guy who was the road, he was the guy named
Vinie Delbono when he was from New York. And then
we became friendly and and you know, got drunk together. Anyway,
we go to New York and I am standing backstage
and I say to Vinny, you know you guys don't

(04:52):
have any tour jackets, like you don't have any satin
jackets that everybody has satin jackets. Now I have an
idea to make a satin jacket. If I give you one,
will you show it to you him? And he says yeah, sure.
So the next day I go to Paragon Sporting Goods
on seventeen Street. I go downstairs and say, hey, I
want to make a baseball jacket. Can you point me
in the direction to the guy who does that? Point

(05:12):
me downstairs and I say to the guy, look, I
want to do it like San Francisco giants clus I
wanted black statin jacket. I want Arne stripes and I
want yourma, this is the name on the back end.
I'm gonna draw you the logo and this is what
the logo looks like. And can you have the guy
do that and send it to me? And I give
the guy the money and he sends me the the
prototype in Atlanta, and I send it to Vinnie and
I get a phone call and he says, Yama loves

(05:34):
the jackets. We want twenty five and you can ship
them to me. And I said, no, no no, no, I
want to bring him out. And so so of course
I whack up the price of the jackets to pay
for my planet and give me a little spending money.
And I go out there and they take the jackets.
But what that leads to is, you know, a a
kind of friendship with Hot Tuna. And when Hot Tuna

(05:56):
breaks up, I ask if I can interview you Ama
from my school paper, and I interview this time. Are
you already writing for the school paper? I think I
wrote a record review, you know, and for the Emery
Wheel and Yourma lets me interview him, and I, you know, thought,
this is it. This is the pinnacle. You know, I've

(06:16):
got the hot tune to break up story and I
and I send a letter to Jim Hanky, who was
a music eatitor a rolling Stone at the time. So
I've got the exclusive if you want it. You know,
I sent one of those schmucky letters anyway, which which
didn't get returned, but anyway, so that started my path
in you know, in in journalism, and as it relates
to Peter Buck when r E. M. You know Peter,

(06:38):
we graduated, he moved to Athens, he started this band,
and I wound up writing the first story about them
in the Atlanta Journal Constitution because I eventually went to work.
There was very lucky another the you know, strange story
of how I got there. Well, so I was writing

(07:00):
for the Emery Wheel and I had all these clippings
and I was at a party and there was a
guy named Roger Pavey. He was the entertainment editor of
the Atlanta Journal. And he said to me, I, you know,
we were at this party and and I had this
weed and I said, hey, you know, you want to

(07:21):
you want to smoke some weed with me? And the
guy I didn't really know who he was, and he said, yeah,
you know, and it turned out this is who he was.
And I said, look, you know, I'm writing for my
school paper. I'd like to do some reviews for you.
Can I send you my clippings? And he said yeah, yeah,
s our kids sand So I got my clippings together.
I sent him to Roger. I didn't hear anything. Three
weeks later, I called it. I trump at the paper.

(07:41):
I say, hey, Dandy Slater, I sent you my my clippings.
You remember, he said, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Hey you
got any more of that weed? I said yeah, yeah,
he goes right, We'll meet me at manuel S tavern.
You know, we'll, you know, we'll talk about this. So,
needless to say, they started signing me is and how
much was a review worth actually, you know, I mean

(08:07):
at that time forty dollars was like a hundred parts.
So it was good. And that event that they liked
my writing, you know, And and so they started giving
me more assignments. And and one of the assignments that
I got was, you know, to cover to cover the
Athens music. So you and I wrote this story about R. E. M.
And then eventually wrote the first story in Rolling Stone

(08:27):
about R. E. M. The New Faces piece. But so
that's really the let's go a little bit slower. So
when you're at emery, do you know you want to
be a journalist? No? I actually, you know, there were
guys at the time working at Columbia who were giving
records to me for free, like the guys who became

(08:49):
you know, big executive, or John Faggott who was a
head of promotion at Capital he worked there, and guy
named Alan Orman and a guy named Ed Nwf was
still Warner Brothers. And those guys were giving me records.
You remember, this is nine teen seventy five seventy six.
The record businesses, as you know, a colorful, wonderful place
to probably, like you know, the tech industry is now,
and to me it just all seemed shiny. Mean I

(09:12):
was studying, like you know, political science. My parents wanted
me to be a lawyer. I mean, you know, I
would have said my major was like the Grateful Dead,
because all I really wanted to do was follow them
around and any you know, and find any tributary that
that that Jerry had gone down, whether it was Merle
Haggard or you know, or Hank Williams or any of
the great stuff I learned from listening to those records.

(09:33):
But um, you know my it was really the journalism
became the the outlet for me to express the things
I felt about music, and which I, by the way,
don't think I was very well expressed, but you know
it led me to to being able to get inside

(09:54):
and and see this world that was mystical to me. Okay,
but before you fell in with the hot tuna, did
you believe you could make it as a musician. No, Okay,
so we're having fun in college. I mean, you know,
making it as a musician. I just you know, I
thought I could play things that other people had had
had played. You know, I think there's there's several kinds

(10:18):
of of accomplished musicians. You know. There are guys who
can absolutely mimic what they hear and go on the
road and make your record come to life. And then
there are are guys in a studio that you work
with who you know, can hear melody and hear counterpoint
and bring sections to life and whatever instrument they are,

(10:40):
you know, whatever you need. And I clearly was not
that so as somebody who was just mimicking what I heard,
I kind of felt like you know, tracing paper fake.
So I really didn't do any but all through the
ensuing forty years, you've continued to play the guitar. Well, yeah,
I actually I have a I have a band which uh,

(11:00):
which which we play well? Anyway, with a band, you know,
how often do you play? Well, we were playing every
Tuesday night, you know, at this bar and uh and occasionally,
you know, I'm a little apprehensive about talking about this
band because it's because it's turned into well, okay, in

(11:28):
one or we that was at a point in my
career where I had had it was a transitional place.
So I had been a manager, and I had managed
the Beastie Boys and Lenny Kravitz and co managed Don Henley,
and all of that went away and I sort of
started over. Okay, just to be clear, that went away

(11:50):
because well, I think each of those situations, you know,
being a manager sometimes has a lifespan, and sometimes you
know your partner it is one thing, and the partner
it is that it just it just you know it
it evolves that way, you know. In the In the
case of Lenny Kravitz, I think he was used to

(12:13):
having a very hands on, day to day personal manager
that would do those kinds of things, and for me,
management was was as a partnership was a creative partnership,
you know, as much as it was a business partnership.
And I think Lenny was just getting used to having
somebody other than the guy he had been friends with
forever and I wasn't really going to do that. Um,

(12:36):
you know, the with the Beastie Boys. That was. That
was one of the most amazing, you know, times of
my life because I was around the making of Paul's Critique,
which was legendary, which is just an incredible record, and
they you know, were and the surviving members still are,
you know, just so brilliant. Um. And that was I

(12:58):
think that record was difficult because it was coming off
the heels of a huge success at def Jam, a
licensed Hill and and you know, they had expectations of
what they wanted to do, and they made a record
that was completely groundbreaking and outside of any uh any

(13:23):
place to fit in radio to drive it. I mean, hey, ladies,
you know is one of the great singles and that
artful synthesis of all of those styles that are in
that record. Uh, at that time just didn't was not
a follow up to Hit five. You're as party as
you know and as you so eloquently in your column
stated many times, you know, radio listeners often want to

(13:47):
hear something that sounds familiar to them, and it drives
the business of radio. And if you don't fit into
that format, unless you have a very powerful uh machine
behind you that can keep record on the radio till
the test, well at least at that time, you're gonna
have three weeks and you're gonna be done. And in
the case of Paul's boutique, you know, Capital was trying

(14:09):
very hard to mimic the success of License to Ill
and Hay Ladies did not sound like Fight Fear right
at the party, and the band was also in a
transitional place where they were starting to play instruments and
touring in the way they had before was impossible. So
all of that, you know, led to a kind of
one album, Uh, you know, Lifespan for me, and you

(14:32):
know we remained great friends. But I'm off on a tangent,
but cool. You know that digression is this splice of life,
you know that that led me to a place where
you know, and and Henley and I had a I mean,
I I learned so much. I mean, I would say

(14:52):
of what I know about making a record and being
uh a manager in in the record is really from Dawn.
So tell me us, tell us two things you learned. Well.
I learned about the attention to detail. And I learned
that in making something you must examine and re examine

(15:20):
and be sure before you put it out into the world.
And I also learned to approach the the the putting
those things out in the world with dignity and grace.
And he was always somebody who was smart, articulate, and

(15:43):
and you know, very thorough about about how he did
what he did. And I had a lot of respect
from him. You know, It's funny because I was a
journalist at a time in the late seventies. What was
very fashionable at that time was to sort of deconstruct
the thing that the Eagles and phillywood Mac had built
and punk rock and that you know, ethic was was

(16:05):
the sign of the times. And when I met the
Eagles and interviewed them and went on the road at
them in nineteen seventy nine, I found Don to be
this really well read, you know, well spoken, um uh writer.
He was like a writer's writer to me. He was
a you know, the lyricist. And so when I eventually

(16:26):
came to work with with with him as a solo artist.
You know, I said, my friends who are journalists will really,
you know, really like you if you just talk to them,
because you know, it's clear that you're a man of letters. Um.
And that was, you know, part of the beginning of
our you know, friendship and working relationship that started when

(16:47):
so I can't I went to I left journalism. Let's
see what the eagles came through town in Atlanta and
psalters tell your experience there. Well, getting an interview from
the eagles was, you know, was the genesis for the
newspaper wanted a story on the eagles, and I I

(17:09):
when I, you know, all these things happened to you
in your life and you just, you know, you don't
really know where they're gonna lead you. But I was
on an airplane when I was thirteen, going to Washington,
d c. From my cousin's high school graduation, and there
were two guys sitting behind my grandparents and I and
I one of them was wearing a Live Dead T
shirt and I was like, that looks like Bob Ware.

(17:31):
So I got up on my chair and I said, hey,
are you you famous? Ebob ware and the guy says
to me, no, man, I've known more famous than you.
I'm Eric Anderson, I'm a songwriter. And the other guy
next to him said, well, I'm Michael Kleffner and I'm
the program director of w n a W. And he
had this big handlebar mustache. Anyway, I later, you know,

(17:55):
years later, after the Hot Tuna, you know, Rhody Vinny
and you know Escapade, and I became friends with those
guys they met, you know, they're friends who worked for
the Grateful Dead. And I was luckily lucky enough, you know,
at nineteen or twenty to be backstage at the Academy
Music when the Dead played, I think it was. I

(18:17):
think it was the Academy Music still then um when
they played, and there was this guy with the handlebar
mustache back there, and I was like, well, that's the
guy I saw when I was thirteen. And I said, hey, man,
I met you with my parents and you're at w
n W. And he said, no, I'm head of promotion
for Atlantic regoritarys my card and hey, give me a call.
I was right write, so I wrote him all I kept,

(18:38):
you know, I kept hocking him when I was in college.
I would write them, you know these letters. Hey, I
really want to work for Atlantic Records. Hey, you know
I really like the record. He says, Hey, I'm a
journalist now. Hey, then I saw I had you know,
this is nineteen seventy seven and seventy nine. I started
working for the newspaper and they needed an interview with
the Eagles. And I read in Billboard that he went
to work for Irving Azof and front Line Management. So
I called it Michael Kleffner and I say, Michael, I'm

(19:01):
now in Atlanta at this big paper. I need to
interview the Eagles. He's all right, I'll introduce you assaulters
pray for this the Eagle. So so I call up
Larry So. I say, hey, Larry Man Slater and on
the pop music critic at Atlanta Journal, I like the
inter of the Eagles, and he says, they don't do interviews.
I gotta go by, like ship, what do I do?

(19:21):
I need this story? Damn it? Okay, I go I
got it. Okay, called Laric back Larry. Hey, it's Anny
Slaria pop musical advantage of Hey you doing yeah? Yeah
what I said? Look, I don't want interview Eagles. I
want to interview you. I want to interview you, and
I want to interview with Irving, and I want to
interview the crew, and I want to do a story

(19:41):
about what it takes bring the Eagles to Atlanta. Because
I was thinking, Okay, I'll get out there. I'll get
on the road shoulders, maybe don fell to Will walked
by it out of the cope machine and ask him
three questions and I'll string together a story. So he
just okay, you can come meet us in whatever with Durham,
North Carolina. I said, okay, So I get the photographer,
Me and Rick Diamond, the photographer. We go. We drive
out there in our car. We go to we go
see the Eagles. You know, We're talking to Irving and

(20:03):
talking to Larry, and I'm hanging around and I'm trying
to talk to Felder. Irvings is exactly what I'm doing.
He says, hey, listen, I see what you're doing. He says, okay, yeah,
I like you guys. I'll tell you what if you
let Henley approve his quotes that he says to you,
you can interview the Eagles. I said, well, is this
a breaking journalistic No, it's not really it. I'm just

(20:24):
gonna let him, you know, the fact check his quotes. Okay,
I said, okay, so everything. Lets me into the Eagles,
I I. He says, you come to the three E party.
It gives me. It gives me a three E pen.
I go to this party. It's nineteent nine. It's in
the top of a hotel suite. It looks like Playboy
After Dark. I'm like, man, this is cool. UM twenty

(20:48):
two and so I you know, and iView Henley Irving
sits there middle of the interview and he says, you
know what, I like this guy now. I like the
Eagles and seven. I mean, I love this Rotto, I think.
And I was there from the beginning. I'm a huge
Eagan even though it was unpopular. I don't know, it's
kind of like, uh so many other racks were. It's

(21:09):
turning around. Yeah. But you know when you listen to
even the architecture of sound of Desperado, and you listen
to the reprieve of the duel and dal and Repres,
and you hear the banjo and you hear the room sound,
and you realize what they created. I mean, it's really
brilliant and So for me talking to Don about that stuff,

(21:31):
I wasn't as interested in this petticultural war between New
York and l A was going on. I was interested in,
you know, the ideas behind the songs and not so
much the lifestyle. And I think Don responded to that,
and that's eventually how we became friends. But they came
to Atlanta. They liked the story. And I was standing backstage,
uh during the encore with Irving and I said, you know,

(21:56):
you guys don't have tour books. You should really have
a tour book, and you should take me and Rick
on the road with you, and Rick can take the
pictures and I can write the copy. And Irving said,
that's a good idea. Get get it. You see that
car over they're just getting that car. I go, okay,
So me and Rick we get in the car and
the next thing I know, there's twelve cars and we're

(22:17):
pulling out of the Omni and we're at an airport
and Irving says, get on that plane. I said, my
car is at the Omni. What do I do? You say,
don't worry, we know the Omni. Next thing I know,
I'm in I'm in Cleveland. Rick and I have no luggage,
only the clothes we're wearing. And we were on the
road at the Eagles, and Rick eventually took the pictures

(22:38):
and I wrote the copy which Psalters edited and it
turned into nothing, but you know, they did the tour
book and and you know, that was the beginning of
my friendship and relationship with Larry and Irving. And ultimately
they did introduce me to you know, Yawn Winner and
and I eventually became a writer for Rolling Stone and
for Billboard and for People and really, you know, they

(23:01):
they like gave me the imper mater, like this guy's cool.
You can you can talk to him, and he's not gonna,
you know, jerk you around for sensationalism. So you know
that was just that. Okay, So how do you make
the transition from writer to business person? Awkwardly? Um? I
So Salters had a job at frontline and his job

(23:24):
was the frontline, was the management, front line manager. He was,
you know, even though Cameron Crow very astutely in an
article referred to Larry as vice president in charge of
whatever Irving tells him to do, he actually was, you know,
the head of the album covers and publicity. And you know,
it was a junior manager. And so when when Irving

(23:46):
went to run m c A Records in n two
maybe two or three, Larry went with him, and they
were looking for someone who could take Larry's place. And
now I had interviewed all of the fiance and the
main thing was I think Henley, Yeah, he liked me,
and and I had it. You know, they were trying
to find somebody I guess that they could trust. And

(24:08):
Michael Rosenfeld and Howard Kaufman, uh, I had known, and
they said, and I was going to try to move
to California because my girlfriend at the time was going
to be a doctor and she was going to do
her residency at Kaiser Permanente and I didn't want to
lose her, right which this was, you know, one of
the one of the few times I chose love over business. Um.

(24:31):
And I was leaving journalist because I actually I didn't
think I was any good to be honest. I mean
I wasn't going to be you know, like David Frick
or Charles m. Young or Hunter Thompson, any the guys
that I felt were great, you know, or Tom Wolfe,
the great Cholis you know, so I said that I
should really get out of this, and so I got

(24:51):
this job with with Frontline Management, doing Larry's job, and
so it was you do, You're gonna be in charge
of publicet and you're going to be in charge of
album covers and there's a new thing called MTV starting
and you you know you can do that because that's
all Larry did. And and so you know, my my

(25:12):
transition to businessman is really around two things. One is
I'm gonna make videos. And the first one of the
first videos I make is with Henley and I had
seen this French There was a French artist named Exel
Bauer and there was a song called Cargo. And I

(25:33):
saw this video because a friend of mine, Gayle Sparrow,
who actually worked at MTV, sent to mysues to work
for Epic Records, and and I started to Don and
I said, hey, don you know this guy, this this
this thing looks really cool. Maybe we should give him
boys a summer and like do something with this guy.
Looks like the Twilight Zone. It's cool. And he said, okay,
we'll send it to him. So I sent it to Mendino,

(25:54):
and Mendino, you know, love the song and he did
the video and don one video at the year that
year from that video, and then I became the manager.
So that was one pivotal moment for me. And from
the eighty three to about eighty five, UM, I mean
that was my job. Really. I was like the young
creative guy with the head fullest crazy ideas about photography

(26:16):
and things to do, and you know, and so I
think these guys who were ten years older than me
and sort of looking to I don't know, get input
from somebody other than an older businessman, which Howard was
one of the best. Learned everything from him. And so
that was, you know, the nature of my business thing.
The other thing that happened in the very first meeting

(26:39):
at Frontline Management when I got there, Howard went through
the client list and there was Henley and Steely, Dan
and the go goes and boss gags and Jim and
Jimmy Buffett and they got to the last name on
the list and it was Warren Zevon and Howard said
Warren Zevon, Okay, well, let's see, are eighty thousand dollars
in debt to the I R S. He's living in Philadelphia,

(27:02):
he's a drunk. He has no recordly, he doesn't want
to work. He's off the roster. And I stand up
and I go, but Howard, he's the best writer we
have on on the roster. And he goes Slater, he's
a hundred and eighty thousand dollars in death to the
I R S. Not the bank. They're gonna come after him.
He's a drunk, he's living in Philadelphia, doesn't want to work.
He's off the roster. And I say, but artists love him,
and maybe other people will come here. He goes, listen,

(27:23):
you've been here five minutes. I'll tell you what you
manage them? Okay, next subject? Oh great, I get the
client list like, go to my little office. Dial a
phone like, Hi, Warren's Andy Slay your new manager fulne management. Click,
hangs up. Man like, well that's weird. Okay, call back,
get some answering machine leaving message. Later your new manager
filily management. He like, talked about your career. Call me

(27:43):
back nothing, okay, Wait two days call back answering machine,
leave another message okay. Finally a week later, get him
on the phone. He goes, hey, listen, I was at
the dentist today and I don't really think I can
talk to you, so just wants you call me Thursday.
I'm like, okay, one quite Thursday. Okay, Thursday comes, don't

(28:06):
get him on the phone. So I think, you know what,
I'm gonna call Peter buck Okay, I called Peter Buck up.
I go, hey, Peter H. Tandy, how are you doing.
I'm managing Warren's Eiland. He goes, you're managing what? Your manager?
He was just a journalist three weeks ago as well,
you know what? So I say, hey, you know, if
Warren has some songs, maybe you guys would do a

(28:27):
demo with him and we can get him a record deal. Now,
at that time, Aria and I think had made Murmurs
just one record, so that they were cool and just
starting out. And he said, oh man, yeah, remember how
he used to listen to Excitable Boy with it? He said, yeah, no,
I'll pick him up at the air, but we'll bring
him to Athens. Will we'll make a tape of them. Okay, great.
So then I call Gary Gersh who was at e

(28:48):
m I. He didn't want to do that. And then
I called Michael Austin, who just started working for his father,
had Warner Brothers and I and I had, you know,
he and I had we had met in Atlanta with Irving.
I think he was he signed a band called Riggs. Anyway,
I called Michael and I said, look, managing Warren's Evan,
will you give me some money for a demo? There's

(29:09):
this band R E M. They're cool. It could make
He says, yeah, yeah, I'll give you five grandmother, send
you the paper. Call walking. Next phone call warrant. I
wanted to say, a new manager from Image. How you doing.
He goes, I'm doing great. I go, you got Do
you have any songs? Because of course I got songs, kid,
What are you talking about. I'm a songwriter, like okay, okay,
because I got this five grand for you to make it.
You've got five grand. I need that money, give me that.

(29:30):
I said, No, I can't give you the money, but
maybe we can make a demo. There's this band in Atlanta.
They're really cool. They're you know, they're R E M.
And they're making their first record. You know, when you
come down to Atlanta, maybe with them and make a demo.
And he goes, fly me first class. I go, yeah,
we'll fly first class, five first class. Peter I called Peter.

(29:56):
Peter picks him up the airport takes him out to Athens.
Two days later, I call Peter. I go, hey, man,
how's it going. He goes, well, you know, the songs
are good. But Warren he teaches us the songs and
then he kind of takes a nap. And I'm like,
what were you guys working? Like really late? Three him no,
like three in the afternoon. I go, oh, he must
be drinking. He goes, well, I don't know, It'll be fine,

(30:18):
don't worry, it's I said, okay, man. He goes, tell
you what, We're gonna do a show at the forty
Water Club this weekend. You should come down. I was like,
oh great, okay. So I got my little haircut, my
little jacket, little tie. I'm now manager, you know. Go
down Athens. Go down to Athens, talk into the dressing room.
Before the show. Warren's in the corner. He sees me

(30:38):
and he walks away. I'm like, oh, that's weird. Maybe
it's pretty show Jeter. Maybe I'm not gonna maybe I
won't bother him. So they play the show and it's
all great. After the show, I see him in a
dressing me and I walked towards him, and he walks
out of the room and I'm like, that's this guy's
definitely really avoiding me. So I'm standing in the dressing
room and somebody point pats me on the back and says, hey, hey, Slayer,
you're back in Georgia. What do you do? And all

(31:00):
of a sudden, I feel these two arms grabbed me
and turned me around. He goes, that's who you are.
He thought it was from the I R S. I
thought I was coming after his sign because I looked like,
you know, a complete nerd. But that led to my
you know, relationship with Warren, which was really you know,
one of the great the great things in my in

(31:21):
my working career. And eventually, you know, I got him
out of Philadelphia. Why was he in Philadelphia, Well, he
had fallen in love with the DJ name Anita, and
I think she was the inspiration for the song Reconsider Me.
But uh, I managed to get him an apartment at
the Oakwood Gardens Apartments. I was making forty dollars a

(31:44):
year and he was in debt to the I R S.
And he will you know, he had other issue, other
financial issues, and but I signed in this department, and
I would get these calls from the norther was on.
It was on bar I'm Mountain exactly, so you know,
it was where I was like a transient kind of
place where actors were auditioning for something. Came in for

(32:07):
two days. Anyway, I got him an apartment there, and
all kinds of shenanigans were going on. He was shooting
the gun off in the department like a crazy stuff,
and you know, but eventually I realized I had to
get him a car. And you know, there was the

(32:28):
frontline management was in the Atlas Leasing building and somehow
I managed to convince the daughter of the owner of
the Atlas Leasing company to get Warren a corvette. Oh god,
so Warren had a great court. I got Warren a
great corvette, and you know, he had his apartment and

(32:48):
I kept giving him money and he was playing me
these songs and they were amazing, and I worshiped the guy.
I mean, he was you know, Warren Warren was really
the writer's right or he was like the He was
like the low Archer or the Philip Marlowe to me
of the l A scene, and uh, you know, and

(33:11):
probably to to a lot of those guys to you know,
to Don Henley and the JD. Souther and obviously to
Linda Ronstadt. They had tremendous respect for him as a wrinter.
You know, all of his songs that there was never
a wasted word in one of those songs. You know.
He used to say, he said, you know, when I
go for the when Henley goes for the high note,
they give him the Grammy. When I go for the
high note, they give me the heimlich Maneuver. But eventually,

(33:38):
you know, I got him a record deal and eventually
helped him get sober. I mean I get him sober. Well,
I mean he these he came with all these kind
of crazy ideas he'd have, Like, you know, he had
a polaroid camera that he decided he was going to
take a polaroid of all of his prescription drugs. So

(34:00):
when the cops stopped me, just whip out the polaroid.
When he was loaded and couldn't walk the line, he
just said, look, I got the thing, you know, But
there was all these this stuff. Eventually, I think that's
something that you know, he came to himself, and I
was just trying to find a place to to to
get him to that. Would you know, he would embrace
the idea of being sober. And I just remember driving

(34:20):
him around to these rehabs and and he would you know,
I remember sitting in one rehab with him, you know,
near Fox Studios, and I forget the name of the place.
And you know, we were sitting there in the in
the reception room, in the intake thing, and there was
some guy in the room and he looked over. The
guy looked over at Warren and me, and he said,

(34:42):
I drank the lie. I drank the lie. And Warren
looked at me and he said, let's get out of here.
I'm not going in this place with these cucka boos,
you know. But eventually, eventually he got sober, and you know,
through his sobriety eight things happened as that they do
for people who okay, So while you were there, he

(35:03):
started off eighty granted debt. Did you ever make any money?
Did Frontline? Did ever turn around? So they made money? Well,
I will tell you something. And this is the great
thing about Howard Kaufman, who I miss every day. You know,
Howard said to me, you got this guy back on
his feet, and you keep all the money for the commissions.

(35:24):
And you know, I mean people don't know what kind
of guy that guy was. You know, he was a
very tough businessman. I mean, you know, I think if
you're a promoter, you probably you know, had had a
lot of issues with you know, with how he how
he extracted money from you. But you know, he fought
first clients, and he taught me so many things. Man.
He taught the first thing you know, he taught me

(35:46):
he said, your word has to be good, because if
you tell a guy that he's got something, that's it.
And I never really had any contract with Howard any papers,
and you know, and and all of our partnerships, whether
we worked on Don Henley or the Beastie Boys, whatever,
whenever he said this is the deal, that was a deal.
And you know that's not always the case in the
music industry, as you and I know, it's so so

(36:07):
Howard was really really a huge influence, uh for me,
and uh and I miss him. But but but but Warren,
you know, but Warren didn't make money. And Warren did
get out of debt, and Warren did all the things
that you know people do when they get sober cleaned up,
all the Wreckage and and had and had a great
you know, second run of his of his career, and

(36:29):
and we we made a record with R. E. M.
For a Virgin called Sentimental Hygiene. And I I was
a producer that record, but when I was working on it,
I didn't know I was a producer. You know, I
had played music with Peter Buck and we so I
knew like when a song was too fast, or the

(36:50):
key might have been wrong, or maybe there was too
many bars in the turnaround between the first chorus and
the second verse, you know, things like that. And I
was just saying, hey, this sounds fast, Hey, this sounds
So I was in the studio all the time because
they were my friends, and I was saying to Warren,
I think he was going to do a song called
Boom Boo Mancini. And I said, Warren, you know, it's

(37:11):
really it seems like it's a piano song. It's not,
you know. And so I was saying these things. And
at the end of the record, you know, as we
went down to the mix, you know, the engineer Nico
Bolos said to me, you know you're producing this record.
I said, this is what producing is. He says, yeah,
and so you know Warren. That was the beginning of
making three records with Warren and a career of you know,

(37:34):
working as a record producer. Taking the things that I
had learned from watching Don Henley make records, and the
things that I learned from Nico Bolis engineering records and
Greg Ladonia engineering records, and applying them to the things
that I thought I heard that I couldn't play, but
I could find other people to play. Okay, how does
it end with Warren? Well, it ends in nineteen ninety

(38:00):
one when I get to a place where I have
a little traveling problem where I can't really leave my
room that much. You know, I was well, since you're
being honest about that, recalling that drugs or agoraphobia. No,
it's not a goraphobia. I mean, I'm using the metaphor there.

(38:21):
I I mean, it wasn't really that happy. You know.
I had gotten to these places where I had tremendous success.
It seemed like on the outside, you know, I was
managing these people, I was making this money, but inside,
you know, there was that just that hole, and I

(38:41):
couldn't figure out why I wasn't happy, And so I
was trying to medicate that, to to get the right
you know, the right feeling. And really what it was
was I just kind of needed, uh, to be sober
and to not chase it chemically, to be you know,

(39:01):
to have a sense of serenity and and and piece
of myself. And and when I went to do that,
because I don't think I was the kind of drinker
or drug user that had the lampshade on your head
and didn't have it together. You know, I had a
job and stuff, but inside there was just a yearning

(39:22):
for the noise in my head to to just get
to get lower and uh. And I couldn't figure it out.
And so when I went to rehab, I mean, a
couple of my friends have gotten sober and uh, and
I said, you know, maybe this is for me. Maybe
I should try to do this. And and I went

(39:42):
to I went to rehab, I went to a place
in the marina. And when I went to the marina,
I got a phone call from Warren. You know, I
said to him, look, man, I gotta I gotta get
my ship together because it's just not happening for me.
And when that happened, he said, look, man, you know

(40:03):
I don't know, if I could really have a manager
that's newly sober and and I said, okay, and you know,
and that was it. Well, it's just thinking, do you think, well,
I also think at the time that there are other
influences of other people trying to tell him a look,

(40:23):
you know, come with me. You know, that's just the way.
You know, but that's just the way it is. Let's
go back. So what came. So you're saying that once
you got to rehab, all your problems go away. Well, no,
what happens when you go to rehab is all the
bad problem solving things go away. But then your problems

(40:44):
are there, and so you have to figure out how
to you know, deal with your emotions, uh in a
way in reality, and that takes a little bit of time.
And you know, luckily, the the twelve step program is
is a really great thing because it it it gives
you a framework to start looking at things that you

(41:06):
didn't look at. And if you know, and I was
super cynical. I mean, I was like, look, I am
not going to I don't want to be in any club.
I don't even I didn't want to join a fraternity
and you know, and you know, in college. But I
got to this room where there were a lot of
people of musicians who I respected, and people who were

(41:26):
talking to me saying, look, man, you know you're a
cool guy, and this is if you do this, this,
this is what will happen. And I was like, yeah, right, okay.
But but they were smart and they were cool, and
they embraced me, and you know, I I'm forever indebted
to those guys. Um, you know, and and and it
it's slowly worked. It doesn't work overnight, but it does.

(41:49):
But if you if you stay with it, uh, and
you find your own place in it, you can change
your life. And you know, they so they tell you
all these things are gonna happen. I fear financial and
security is gonna be gone and you're gonna get everything back.
And you know, so before I got sober, as I said,
it was the manager of all those artists. And I

(42:10):
had been a journalist and I had been a creative
director and a record producer and then it all went away.
And for four years, not a lot happened, you know.
I mean I was managing a band that didn't really
do much and sold forty thousand records and got the
deal dropped in. I was in a place where where's
my beautiful reward. I'm doing what they told me to do,

(42:31):
and you know, and then something very interesting happened. I
I was always told in a you know, stay out
of their results. Just do the work. Do the work
in general and life. You're not in control of the universe.
There's an order to the universe. Just do the work

(42:52):
and don't worry about what happens. I was like, what
is that? Did you have enough money? That's well? I
mean I had a little money. I mean I had
a call are that had a rip in the hood
that I couldn't drive in the rain. And I had
an apart you know, one of those creepy apartments that
people have with you know, when they're when they're in
that situation. I mean, but I was okay. I mean

(43:13):
I was making it work. You know, you you make
whatever whatever work. I felt I could live in a
you know, one room in one room, as long as
I had music and a guitar and you know, in
the bed and a TV. But so this this thing happened.
I Howard, you know. And the great thing about Howard again,
when I lost everything, Howard said, you have an office here,

(43:38):
and you'll always have an office here. And when I
went to rehab what I found out? Howard said, got
everyone in the office and said, and he went to rehab.
If I hear any of you tell anyone in the
business what's happening with him, you're fired. I mean, that's
the kind of loyalty that guy had anyone. I came out,

(43:59):
I didn't have a going on, and a lot of
have a lot going on for for three or four years,
and then something strange happened. I had become friends with
a lawyer who was representing the Smashing Pumpkins and they
were looking for a new manager on Melancholy in the
Infinite Sentens and Howard and I went to Chicago to

(44:23):
have a meeting with with Billy and the band. Now
we go to this meeting and uh, and you know,
Billy's super smart record like a record guy could have
been one of the great It wasn't a great artist
be one of the great record men of of today.
And we talked a lot about music and the things

(44:44):
we liked and bands we liked and obscure stuff. And
Howard talked about the record business, its night and how
you make money on the road, and you know how
you make money with T shirts and all the all
the stuff. He knew better than anybody. And we left
the meeting and the lawyer said to me, you got it.
These guys loved you, and I was like, yeah, right,
is right. I'm back. I'm going to be the co

(45:06):
manager of the biggest band in the world. This is
the greatest thing. And two days later she called me
and she said, well, Andy, look they had one more
meeting and it was with Cliff Bronstein and they went
with them, and I was devastated. I mean, that was
the point where I think all this stuff to tell
him he's bullshit, Like I'm I'm doing what they tell me.

(45:28):
I'm living the good life, straight life, and I'm going
to me and doing all the things I'm supposed to do,
helping other people. And where's the reward? And you know
I was saying this. I was in New York at
the time. It was Christmas, and my girlfriend at the
time had a friend who had a kid, and then

(45:49):
she had a babysitter for this kid. And the babysitter
I knew somebody who had made a cassette of three songs,
so the babysitter gave it to my girlfriend's friend who
was in the music business, and she said, look to
my girlfriend, I know he's really bummed out. I don't
know I got this tape. I don't know what this is,
but maybe he can do something with this. That's a tape.
It's something. I put the tech cassette tape on and

(46:12):
there were three songs on it, and the girl's voice
was other worldly. And that girl was Fiona Apple. Now what?
And so I went on, of course, to to meet
her and to produce her first record, and and and
you know, we know what happened there. She went on
to sell four million records. But the point of the
story is if I had gotten what I wanted and

(46:36):
what I thought, which was to be a manager and
to manage the Smashing Pumpkins, I would have probably taken
that tape and thrown it, you know, to the side
or something, or just not at any time to do
anything with it. But because I produced that record, and
then when I went on and I went on to
produce the Macy Gray record, being a producer and selling
between those two records twelve million records and a manager

(47:00):
me to the opportunity to run capitol records. And so
what it teaches you is that do the work. Maybe
it's not that's not the way it's supposed to work out.
So if you get bummed out and you think, you know,
I should have gotten that, maybe there's something else down
the road for you. And you know, that's the way
you have to live your life, because you know, if
you if you if you live in regret and you

(47:22):
live in the what if, so you will never get anywhere. Okay,
three questions. What happened to the girl who was going
to become a doctor? The girl who was going to
become a doctor? Well, this is what happened. One night
I came home from being on the road and I
found a parking ticket in my card five in the

(47:46):
morning at some address in Pasadena. I was like, Hey,
what is that? When? When? What is there? Probably with
five in the morning. Anyway, it was at some guy's house,
and you know, um and he was a doctor. And
she eventually married the doctor, but it had two kids
as divorced. And and by the way, I she was

(48:08):
my high school sweetheart and I and I love her
and owe her a lot for for not not the
least of which is you know, helping me get seven
hundred on my English achievement test. Anyway, Okay, so how
did it end with managing Henley? Well, you know, I

(48:28):
I think again it ran its course. Um, maybe a
couple of things. Uh. I wasn't that together at that point.
It was at the point where I was sort of unhappy.
And I also think that, you know, as I was

(48:48):
managing Lenny Kravitz and Lenny Kravitz had a number two
hit record with it Ain't over till It's over. You know,
I don't think I was together enough to manage both
of those things myself, and I was spending more time
with Lenny, and you know, I think that also Irving

(49:11):
was coming back from being a record executive and he
was coming back to management and looked on with his
client and you know, his longtime client, and and you know,
he had every right, I think, to you know, rekindle
his relationship with him, or continue with the relationship that
he had with him, and put the Eagles back together,

(49:31):
whatever he wanted to do. And I just think that that,
along with my not paying attention and also my not
being that together, probably you know, led to you know,
to to our you know, working relationship. Okay, and then
you we started this with the band who formed in
so what was that that was? After you got sober?

(49:52):
After I got sober, there was nothing going on. I
was playing at the Kivets Room in by the way
two and three. It was happening right there was, I mean,
Joni Mitchell was there at one top point and and
I remember playing on a Sunday night with these three
guys and we were playing down by the river and

(50:12):
there were five guys in the in the room and
one of them was Rick James. And Rick, you know,
saw us playing down by the river and had his
like one year old baby in his arms. And I
could which I couldn't believe. You know, we got up
on stage and he sang down by the river with
I think he was in a band with nearly on
and so you know he was sort of smiling. And
but that's the kind of stuff that was, you know,

(50:33):
going on. And Mike Myers came once and you know,
people were I think Rolling Stone wrote an article on
like the cover of the music section. They called it
the Last Schmaltz, you know, the sort of rock on
Rye and and and all the bands that were playing
there with the Chili Peppers came there. It was like
a whole scene, you know, in affects it. But what
happened to me? So I was playing with these guys

(50:54):
and we were doing a bunch of Neil Young songs,
and all of a sudden, you know, room was crowded,
there was girls, it was it was happening. And this
guy jumps up on the stage and it grabs a
mic and and he starts singing, and he sounds exactly
like Neil. I mean, he's got it down. So we
play a couple of songs and and it's like and

(51:15):
then he just runs off the stage and I put
my guitar down and I chased after and said, hey man,
who whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, where'd you come from? What's
going on? He goes, I sell Deli meat to the
Canaderas I heard you guys playing, I'm like, oh my god.
So so his name was Gary Williams. And so Gary,
you know, said to me at the time. He goes, yeah,
I'll come back. Let's we can jam again. So we

(51:36):
started playing and Gary says, you know, we should form
something and I can write and you play great, and
so we started kind of trying to put a you know,
a band together. And I'm like thirty two years old, sober,
thinking what am I doing with the rest of my
life here? So yeah, you know what I'm gonna I'm
gonna be in the band. I'm gonna be the band.
And then, you know, I had a moment of clarity

(51:58):
at this point. I realized I wasn't that good at
twenty two and you know, I didn't do this with
Peterbuck and probably not good enough now at thirty two. Um.
And then I was starting to work with the Wallflowers
and and and then I thought, well, wait a minute,
what do I do here? So Gary said to me, look,
I know you're working with this band, the Wallflowers. You

(52:18):
either got to commit this thing to me. We're going
to commit to the Wallfers. And I thought, bet on
myself or bet on Jacob Doylan. I think I would
have bet on Jacob Dylan. So I we didn't. The
band dissolved, but later, like twenty years later, I saw
him at a at a show and and I said, hey, man,
you remember remember how we used to you know? He
I said, well, let's let's try to play again. Because
I was out of capital. I didn't know what I

(52:40):
was doing. And so we got the band back together
and we started playing. And and you know, it was
really because I was I was dating this girl, and
and and she was playing around town, and she was
talking about how important all these gigs were, you know,
and you're you know, how it is right, we we

(53:03):
put up with these things that sometimes our our romantic
partners say, you know, because we want to be supportive,
and then we're supportive to a point. And I was saying,
she was saying, and it's so you don't understand this
gig we have at the I don't know what it was,
the hotel cafe. And I said, anybody can play there,
it's not that big deal, and and she goes, it's

(53:25):
a big deal, and I said, okay, So I called
up Gary said Gary, we're gonna play, and we're gonna
play every freaking place that she's playing. Okay, I'm gig everywhere. Explained.
So for like you know, a month or so, I
just you know, I had my band and I saw, like,
you know, honey, see now I'm playing their Thursday. Now
I'm playing there Saturday, now I'm playing. There, I'm playing,

(53:45):
I'm playing. But and then I thought, you know, then
I actually thought, oh wait a minute, because well, we
were a cover band, and we we were actually Neelly
Young cover band, which I hope Neil Young doesn't here,
but he's gonna hear because I just said it to you.
But so we were playing around and I thought, you know,
this is fun. This is more fun than having to
like make the number for David Muttons and e M

(54:06):
I fuck okay. So but you know, we did it
a little bit. We played a bunch of things. We
played in New York and I don't know. I had
this one moment where I was walking on um it
was like in the Bowery and I saw this poster
and it said the Incredit InCred the Unforgettable Fire, uh

(54:27):
a true YouTube experience. And I saw saying I went, oh,
wait a minute, that's me. I don't know if I
could do this, And I realized, I just I'm about
to take the biggest nose dive in the history of
the musical. I'm going from the CEO of Capitol Records
to the guitar player in a cover band. What am
I doing? So you know I quickly, you know, altered

(54:48):
course that was that the other three guys who stayed
too or is there? Everybody plays in their session musicians
and guys play with other people. But we have a
lot of fun when we do it. You know, still
play like once a year. But you know, really it's uh,
you know, we're just we're all such diehard crazy Horse
fans and Neil Young fans that you know, we we

(55:09):
love playing that music. And Gary and Gary and the
singer are really great. I mean, you know, Unfortu is
still selling Deli meats. Gary is still selling Deli meat
at Canner's where you can find him someday and YouTube
can join a band with him. Okay, tell us the
story of the famous Fiona Apple video, which one the

(55:32):
one in the back seat of the car criminal. I
believe it was well that video, I mean I think
it's uh, I think it's a it was inspired by
the photographs of Nan Golden. Uh. If you look at
some of those shots, that's what that is, and that
and and that during that time. I mean, you know

(55:52):
Mark Romantic, who is the director, who's a genius, I
mean one of the great Uh. You always had a
point of view that came from a place of art,
never a place of commerce. You couldn't talk to me
about selling anything. He was you know, he was a

(56:14):
a very well read, uh and and learned guy in
terms of the history of photography. And so that video
was really based on that. UM I do remember one
at one point I came to the set and it

(56:35):
was shot in a lot in her house, beautiful house.
I came to the set and Jeff Airoff, who was
the president of the record company, he says to me,
I gotta talk to you. You you've got to do something.
I said, what, man, what what? Everything? This looks cool?
Here he goes, she's in her underwear and she's selling

(56:55):
and you've got to stop her. And I said, uh, okay.
So I went over to the set and found it
was like and I don't know if she's in like
a nighty or something. And I said, uh, if you know,
I just Jeff Aroff just said, you know, you're you know,
you're in your underwear filming and you gotta stop. She said,

(57:16):
I know what I'm doing. You tell him I know
what I'm doing, and to leave me alone, and you know,
and that was and and honestly I mean, you know,
Fiona did does what Fiona wants to do always, you know,
and I would say that nothing she does is not
from a place that's well thought out and uh, you know,

(57:39):
and and artistic and and Okay, so the sexual content
of that we're attributing to both her and Romanic. I mean,
I don't really when I look at that, I don't
see it as that. I mean, it looks like a
Calvin Klein ad. You know, it looked like the count
cli I don't want to get whatever. My personal opinion,
because we're jaded, perception was that it was sexualized of

(58:01):
a young woman. Again, you know, I didn't see it
like that, and I haven't looked at it in a
long time. I would have to look at it through
today's and say that. But really, at that time, you know,
it was, uh, it seemed to me like a moving
extension of the photographs of Nan Golden. Okay, let's just

(58:22):
jump ahead, because you mentioned you produced the Macy Gray record.
Both those acts had gigantic, gigantic success and then never
really followed it up. Why is that. Well, Fiona has
one of the great careers. I mean, I have to
say her influence on modern music, you know, and the
singer songwriter is pretty pronounced. And the records that she's

(58:45):
made since then, and and you know, the second record
is you know, I would think maybe her best record. Um,
but they're all like you know, like I said about Zevon,
and I would say about Johnny if you read those lyrics,
and Bob, you should read those lyrics, there is not
a misplaced word. And as an interpretive singer unparalleled to me,

(59:09):
and you know, just look through the stuff. So I
think whether it's someone like King Princess, a current artist
you know, who is influenced by her, or you know,
just her contemporaries, she stands, you know, as to me
as as one of the greats. And I'm not that
easy to impress it. I think she hasn't had another hit,

(59:37):
She has a great career, She can do whatever she wants,
She has artistic freedom, she can play in So you
don't think that she was inhibited or had a backlash
because of the Gargangelan success on the first album. I
think that, as you know, and you have often said

(59:58):
in your column, the best way to establish a career
in the music business is to build credibility first and
a base and expand upon that and never waiver from
you know, your artistic endeavors to get to grab for

(01:00:19):
something elusive like a big hit record. Um, sometimes you
have a big hit like Radiohead had a big hit,
and but they are they are as good as the
success and they decide creatively to go in different directions.

(01:00:40):
You know, you could say the same about Neil Young.
You know he has heart of gold and he makes
Tonight's tonight. I mean, you know that success gives you
the freedom if you're an artist, to create in a
way that you that you want. And you can either
be beholden to commercial success, you know, or use the

(01:01:04):
platform to be a true artist and express herself. And
and I think in Fiona's case, she used the platform
to express herself in the ways that she she wanted to.
And what about you know, Macy was different. I mean,
you know for me, I I as a record producer,
I only wanted to make a record when I had
an idea or I had songs that I had an

(01:01:26):
idea of something to do with. I didn't want to
be in a studio and say, okay, this is I
make my living. Let me I'll produce the next guy,
and I've got to make money doing this, though I
was very fortunate to be able to do that with
great writers. Warren was an amazing writer, and Fiona is
an amazing writer. And that first Macy Gray record has
some of the some of her best lyrics on that record.

(01:01:46):
I think if you look at any of those songs,
they really are great stories and and real, uh, pure
emotions from the heart, you know. In making the Macy record,
I mean that was also such an incredible experience for
me because I got to basically take the records I

(01:02:07):
loved his kid and rip them off. I mean, we
did sly Stone. You know, why don't you call me?
It's just us doing sly Stone and and uh in um,
I can't wait to meet you. We're doing kind of
al Green and you know, and and still we're doing
a Wreath of Franklin. So what I was trying to
do was so trying to make some kind of artful
synthesis of old and new. And that's kind of what

(01:02:29):
I always have done, you know. I I have the
sonic reference points, so here the string sound of something
in something modern, or we'll have the Stevie wondered drum
sound you know the high Stevie Wonder high hat on
something and you'll hear that really loud. And you know,
with that record, I Macy wanted to make a rap record.
She she loved Lauren Hill and she won. She gave

(01:02:53):
me The Miseducation of Lauren Hill and said this is
what I wanted to be. And I said, here's Mad
Dogs and Englishman. Watch this movie. This is what your
band should be. It should be this big rainbow coalition
and you should go around and and that's what you
should do. And and and there were such crazy things

(01:03:15):
on that record. I mean, you know, I remember we
were we were I wanted to bring wah Wah Watson
in to to play on on one of the songs
because I was trying to do some stuff with Eric Marshall,
who's an amazing, you know, modern young guitar player at
the time, and and wa wa Watson and and you know,

(01:03:37):
uh so Wahwah came in and and he set up
his whole thing, which took about two hours, which was
a wah wah pedal and a guitar um and and
we we gave him the track and he started saying, well,
you know what I'm gonna do now is I'm gonna
I'm gonna gesticulate, and you know, and he was talking
a lot about what he was going to do, and

(01:03:58):
Mace was getting very frustrated it. So so we put
the track up and we're already he's built this moment
up with the track up, and he goes, what and
she literally grasps me by the collar and shed we
go outside and she goes, get this guy, why these

(01:04:19):
old guys have to be in my room? But I
don't need these guys on my record. And I was like, oh,
ship anyway. But you know, her whole, her whole uh
uh posse of people were so amazing to work with.
I mean, you know, okay, so why did it? Why
couldn't she never follow it up? You know, I don't know.
I mean I think sometimes and this is just conjecture.

(01:04:47):
I like making first record with artists because their first record,
at least back in the day in fact, you could
before you could make one in your house. You you
weren't able to utilize all the tools of the studio.
And they come in with these songs that they've worked
on their whole lives with and you take the best
of these songs and you can maybe build a sound
that becomes the foundation for what they're gonna do next.

(01:05:08):
And to me, that's fun because it allows me to
do what I want to do. After you sell eight
million records as she did, and people tell you, you know, uh,
you know how how how great you are I guess,
or how great your music is, then you want to
try to expand and do other things. I mean, I

(01:05:30):
will tell you this one story. Jacob Dylan went to
Carnegie Hall to play a a Neil Young benefit tribute
and it had like Patti Smith and the Roots and
you know, all these bands playing nearly Young songs. And
I said, Jacob, this is like the after I left Capital.
I said, who are you taking to play guitar? He
said no, but I'm the house And I said, why

(01:05:50):
don't you take me? He says, you know what, let
me call you back to find that answer why not?
And to hit the Jacob's credit. He called me back
and he said, you know what, man, you got me
to play in front of the Stones at Dodger Stadium,
and you got me to play in front of the
Who and Madison Square Gun Come with me, said great,
So Jake came to my house. We learned the song

(01:06:11):
and be okay, we go to the thing. We go
to Carnegie Hall. Okay, I'm standing on a side of
the stage and I'll never forget this. You know, they're
about to walk and I saw the people that I
know in the business and I think, I think, Pete,
you're in the guitar player with sing He says, hey man,
you know they were about to say, Jacob, you go on.
And so I start to walk on on the stage
of Carnegie On Pete your and you can see his

(01:06:32):
face going no, Andy, no, no, no, that not you,
not you, And that was it was me. So I
went on stage and I played these two solos and
I'll never forget. I got a text from my cousin
and he said, hey man, I'm at Carnegie Hall and
you know, Jacob Dolan's guitar player looks exactly like it.
But I did this thing and after the show, we're
at this after party. Were people who were at the
show and were you happy with your performance? Yeah? I

(01:06:55):
was great, write the song four thousand times and one thing.
I wasn't nervous, very cool to play Carnegie Hall. And
he says, all a one of the great moments of
my life that I get to play lead guitar kind
of your own people cheer. Was like wow. But here's
the point of the story. So after the show, Jacob
says to me, Oh, you see those people over there,
they're looking at you, and I go, oh yeah, He goes,
you know why they look at you? Know? I don't know.
I guess because you're the lead guitar player. And I'm

(01:07:16):
walking around the reception and I'm getting that kind of
like fish out from people. Oh hey, I like yoursel,
like your sol. And I said to him, you know
what this is. While you guys are nuts, if you
do this every day, you're gonna be gonna be crazy.
So the point is, if you're whoever and you sell
eight million records and people do that to you every day,
it has to have an effect on you. And you

(01:07:38):
also want to be in control of your own destiny.
And I think Macy wanted to make the records she
wanted to make. She didn't want to make that record,
and and that's what she did. And whether or not
she was able to to, you know, continue the success
of eight million records or all I try as a
number one record. You know who knows what those factors are.
But clearly I think we all get empowered to do

(01:08:01):
things that we shouldn't do. And luckily, you know, some
of us in the business world say I must know
my limitations and don't do those things. Okay, let's jump
ahead to capital. Was that a job you were looking for?
You know? I really never sat in a marketing meeting,

(01:08:22):
let alone ran one. And I was not thinking that
was something that I I wanted to do. I had
gotten three offers to do it. I had a meeting
with Tommy Mattala at Scalinatela and he wanted me to
run one of his companies. And I just thought, I
don't know, it's doesn't I really want to make some

(01:08:45):
cool ship. I don't know if I that's a big
company that seems very political. And then when Tom Alley
was going to leave Interscope and he had signed that
deal with Warner Brothers, Jimmy came to me and he said,
Jimmy Ivan came to me and he said, you should
you know, you should run uh Interscope and go see Doug.

(01:09:05):
And I went to see the Great Doug Morris and
I had a great meeting with him, and Doug said
to me, you know what, I wanna make Tom Molly
work for you, because he was still in his contract.
Tom and I were friends, and I went to see
Tom and and I said, hey, man, you know, we
had the success with the wallflowers, an airscope and everything,
and I said, you know what's going on? He said, look,

(01:09:27):
you know, and you gotta do what you gotta do.
And you know, uh, you decide what you want to do,
and it just, you know, it didn't feel it felt
not right to me. It felt like, I guess, uh,
I just didn't see a path to doing something that
I wanted to do just to have the job and
have a title. That wasn't it. Really. I was never

(01:09:48):
in it for that. And then Ken Barry came to
me and he said, look, you want to own Capitol Records.
And to me, at the time, Capitol Records was in
a sort of strange place. Roy Lott had tried to
transition it from what Gary Gersh had started there, and
he was trying to make it into Arista, and I

(01:10:09):
just saw it as this this brand that if you
were able to connect the legacy of the company to
the contemporary business in some way and market that that
you could make it into a place where people would
want to go and sign. And I thought, if you
have a couple of hits, that's better. And I have
no hits. I have your interscarp you gotta keep having it.

(01:10:30):
If you're a Sony company, you better have a lot
of hits fast. And so I they they made me
this crazy offer. And I said, okay, and and and
and and the craziest thing, you know, when I got there,
I you know, again, I did something. I followed my

(01:10:51):
heart and I didn't really sort of think it through,
which I have often done in in my life, probably
personally more than business. And and I got to the
first meeting, and I remember calling up. I remember calling
Michelle Anthony and saying, you know who I was very
close with. And she said and I said, look, um, okay,

(01:11:13):
now what do I do? And she says, well, look,
you're a manager, you're a record maker, your in publicity,
you know, marketing. Look at their meeting schedule to go
to the meetings and see what you think. So I
went to the first meeting. At the marketing meeting, you know,
I looked at their records and I listened to everybody talk,
and you know, I was I make some suggestions to
things that I thought and everybody was agreeing with me.

(01:11:34):
I thought, wow, this is crazy. So went back in
my office. I called my brother. I said, is the
craziest thing. He said, what. Remember I've been trying to
let trying to get you guys to listen to me
my whole life. Well, I just went to this meeting.
Everything I say is truly it's incredible. Of course, I
later figured out, you know, who was really good at
what they were doing and who could do what I
wanted to do, and I and I changed that. But

(01:11:55):
a crazy thing happened within the first eight weeks of
being there, and I'm just trying to figure it out.
In that first eight weeks, ken Berry says to me,
We're going to merge Priority Records into Capitol Records. I'm like, whoa,
hey what, oh yeah, yeah, you know. And and you know,
their roster there that the company that they built was

(01:12:16):
a great one, but it was a you know, a
street It was a you know, like the West Coast
sort of uh rap company, and and and the roster was,
you know, with all sorts of characters. And but I
didn't know anything about hip hop. I mean, I was like,
wait a minute, you know, I knew pop rock. But
I said, okay, I'll figure that out. And I met

(01:12:37):
with the people and I figured out who knew what
they were doing and who was good. And I kept
the people who looked like they knew what they were
doing in a and arm promotion. And you know, I said, okay,
well we'll go with this. And but two weeks later,
my boss gets fired. Ken Barry gets fired the guy
who hired me, and I'll never forget this. Like I
call up Howard Kaufman and I go, holy sh it,

(01:13:00):
my boss just got fired. What's going to happen with
this new guy? And how it says to me, pray
he hates you. I go, what he goes, have you
seen your contracts? Later? They'll have to pay you every
dime And I said, no, no, no, I don't want
the money. I wanted that this looks seems like it
could be fun anyway. So Alan Levy and David Bunns

(01:13:20):
came in and and you know, in that first year,
I just said, let's just whatever sounds like a hit,
let's just go with whatever. Records are done in England,
these records are done. Good will promote these, I'll sign
some stuff. And you know, in that first year, I
think we had we called him Minogue. We did like
a million records, and a band called Dirty Vegas. We

(01:13:41):
did like a half million records. And then I signed
Uh the Vines, and you know they did they had
almost a million records, and Chingy did three million records.
And then I took Coldplay because I thought they were good.
I want to see them at the Mayan Theater and
I'll never forget. And I said to the manager, you know,
I said, look, if the band will do a hundred

(01:14:01):
and fifty dates in America, we can break the band.
You know, you may not have a bigger hit than Yellow.
But that's the one problem I've always seen where English
bands have hits over in England and they don't spend
the time here, you know, because they were having a
problem with Robbie Williams and it was all this disparity
between England. And you're gonna say that guy doesn't spend
any time. You can't come in and do Jay Leno.
I think you're gonna be a hit. So you know,

(01:14:24):
Coldplay did all those dates, and you know, we saw it.
We saw all those records, and all of a sudden,
you know, months and leaving they were they were sharpening
the knife and then getting the noose and the gun
ready to put somebody else. We were having hits, and
so you know, they focused on Virgin and fixing that.
And you know, through the course of that, through the
course of the time of Capital, I mean, we broke
a British Act. Every year. We broke We woke Kylie,

(01:14:46):
we wroke dirty Veg. Guess we wrote Lily Allen, we
broke ran Belly Ray. Uh, they will cold play. I mean,
you know, in the history of Capital, I don't think
you have a British Act being broken every year. And
you know, in a way, I think the British company
didn't love that because they were so used to ruling

(01:15:07):
the roost and being able to beat up on the Americans.
They didn't know anything and these guys can't do anything.
And all of a sudden, you know, we were going
to the meetings and you know, we had doubled the
market share and you know, and double the profits and
like in like two years, and so it was it
was a good time. And uh, you know, and I
didn't really care where the records came from. I mean,
I wanted our records to do well. I wanted to

(01:15:28):
sign our stuff, and you know, and we did. I mean,
we did two million Yellow Card records, and we we
signed LaToya, We did million records with her, and a
million records at least, and Marie Presley and you know,
and all sorts of uh, you know, all sorts of
other stuff we signed into Paul we broke okay go.
I mean we had a long list of stuff that
I thought was you know, we put Snoop with Farrell
and did their first record and did beautifully at a

(01:15:49):
number one record. We had a healthy company. I got
a new contract. But you know, in the end, it's um,
it's not really what I wanted to do every day.
You know, at the end of the day, I love
music and I love making music. And the things I
did I did from the heart. And making the number

(01:16:14):
was great, and it was a great education, and I
got to do some incredible things when I was there,
and had great relationships with artists that I really really respect,
and that was great. And also learning how to you know,
how to run a business and and and having a
successful business but corporate life is a killer and you know,

(01:16:36):
you really you have to be more lucky than smart.
And how did it end? Well, you know it ended.
It was a long tail. You know, there were things there.
It's like when we did well, I think they were
kind of piste off, you know, because they didn't want
us to do that. They didn't want us to do that.

(01:16:56):
Because they wanted version do that, they hired the guy there. Uh,
and when we weren't doing well, and there's always that time,
you know, in the course of a five year plan.
They didn't like it. But I do remember, uh, you know,
we would have these meetings and um, well, in one

(01:17:16):
of our financial meetings, we would have these conference the
video conference meetings, and so you know, our numbers were
pretty good. We had this meeting with the guys in
New York and and they kept asking us questions and
we had answers for the questions. Okay, So at the
end of at the end of the financial meeting, they said, okay, yeah,
thank you. It sounds too happy, and they clicked the

(01:17:38):
video off. But they didn't turn the video off, so
when we left the room, we could hear everything they
were saying. And every time we had one of these meetings.
They couldn't figure out how I turned the video conferencing off.
So everything they said, we're gonna go after this, and
we're gonna look at this, and we're gonna look at that.
This is what this was. And we knew everywhere they
were gonna go. So in three weeks when they came
looking for the numbers of the things, we had all
the answers, you know, But it was that kind of stuff.

(01:18:00):
But I think, you know, to survive in at that
time at e AM, I in a corporate environment, I think,
you know, you had to be a little bit more political,
and I just wasn't political, you know. I mean, you know,
we had a conference at once where we all got
together in the marketing conference and I think they had

(01:18:22):
some guy from Sachi and Sachi and they were sort of, yeah,
this is in the the months era and they and
they had these guys telling us about how to run
our business better. And they said, look, the consumer tells
you what the product is and what to do with
the product. Then we do this research. And he said,

(01:18:46):
you know the research that we did, will we show you.
We're in there, like they got the troop movements and
a pointer, and I say, you're going, guys, you want
me to make records and run marketing and like make
sure the promotion guys are actually getting records played, Like
what am I doing? But I didn't say they're my face.
I'm sure didn't look really really happy all day. Anyway,
the guy gets to the point where he says, so Paumala,

(01:19:07):
they wanted to know what to do with the soap,
and they went and did the research, and the soap
they realized from the consumers had to be green. So
I raised my hand and I go, yeah, but when
I tell the soap at Capitol Records to be green,
they tell me funk off because they're artists and their
people and like I don't understand what we're doing, and

(01:19:29):
I never forget. Months pulled me aside and he goes,
why do you have to be that guy? And I said,
what do you mean that guy? You mean the guy
who's processing facts, Like I don't know, like this is
not that relevant. He goes, just go back there and
listen and you know, and don't disrupt things. So but
that was my life, and you know I think that

(01:19:50):
um you know, I I also, I mean I remastered
the Beatles records. Okay, I I wanted to. When I
was a kid, as when you were a kid, I
had those records, I had some things new I wanted
to because the Dylan catalog had been remastered and the
Stones catalog had been remastered, and they and like by

(01:20:10):
the time they were going to decide to do it,
I just thought, we gotta do this. So I went
to Ted Jensen, who was a master guy, and and
I went to Neil aspinall what you know, may rest
in peace. What a great guy, you know, who managed
to be those And I said, well, let me do
this because I really I just want to make these
things sound good. And he said, okay, you can take
those records and you can you send it to me.

(01:20:31):
The British company did not like that because I went
straight to the Beatles, but I had a really good
relationship with all of them, and you know, I think
that they didn't think I wanted to rip them off
or take some money and make my number with their masters.
They knew like I cared, I think, and so we
made these American records and it really it's just irritated them.
And then I remember I had done a family portrait

(01:20:52):
of our roster. And I had figured out how we
could at that time a two thousand three or four
take Coldplay and the Beastie Boys and and Radiohead and
Kylie and put them in and McCartney and put them
in a photo and put it in billboard. And that
just made them crazy, because that's they didn't think of
the idea. And so there was constant friction, and I

(01:21:13):
think it ended when they you know, realized they were
going to sell the company and they were showing a
certain amount of profit and to the new buyer, they
were showing a program of merging the company and cutting
the overhead. And I guess the new buyer didn't really
do the due diligence because they were in the I
don't know, bar business and refrigerator business and they yeah,

(01:21:37):
and they thought, hey, yeah. Then they then they merged
the company and they just thought they could run as
many records and create as much profit, and they didn't
realize that they needed, you know, two companies. And also
at the same time, after you know this, there was
this like you know, perfect storm going on where Radio

(01:21:59):
was you know, consolidating, and it was very much about
call out research. So that was tightening and retail was
going away, and I just don't And I think you
had instead of being right on your records because the
profit structure, structure would be a certain way it now
you had to be right about fifty of the time.

(01:22:19):
And all of that together with a new president who
you know, was had also a kind of I think,
uh focus in music that wasn't broad enough to carry
that company. It all just came crashing down. Okay, let's
jump ahead ten years today. What do you see as
the state of the music business and the music today.

(01:22:42):
I mean, it's hard for me to to evaluate the
business portion of any of it really because I'm not
really astute. I'm not looking at it like like you
look at it. I like to ask you that question
and I read what you say about that stuff. Um.
I mean, I'm happy that music is thriving, and I'm
happy that that that the companies are healthy because there's

(01:23:03):
a another resurgence of of money coming in from streaming
and people are, you know, buying their records again, you know,
finding news to buy the same music again in new music.
So I think it's healthy. I think the unfortunate thing
is that everyone can make a record and everyone can

(01:23:25):
put one out and it doesn't matter. So there's so
much you know, we live in this age of of
you know, of hyper information and short attention span and
being bombarded with stuff, and it's just trying to get
above the noise. And so that's just in you know,
in our in our business. And you know, at one time,
I think to make a record, you have to be

(01:23:45):
really good because you have to get somebody who's going
to invest a coup hundred thousand gollars to put you
in the studio, and you know, and then you have
to have somebody who had vision to make you into
the thing, to create that alchemy that we we know
is the brand of the band that we love and
that we want to buy the T shirt of. And
I I don't I don't know. Um. If you know,

(01:24:12):
if it's possible, uh to to to affect popular culture
through rock music the way it was you know, let's
say in the last twenty years before the the the
age of the smartphone, where you have all human knowledge

(01:24:34):
in your hand. Um. I mean, obviously the bridge between
hip hop and popular culture and pop music is there.
It affects other forms of the of the culture. It
affects you know, fashion and and art. But you know
the thing that I love and that would be, you know,
more rock music. I don't. I think the bridge between

(01:24:54):
alternative culture and pop culture may be broken. It may
be broken forever. Okay, so today you consider yourself a manager, Well,
you know, I never really consider myself I'm now. I
don't know if you I would say that per se
because I'm not looking for management clients. I have relationships
with a few artists that I love that I work with,

(01:25:16):
and some of it's as a producer, some of it's
as a producer and a manager, some of it's just
as a manager. But really, I you know, I wanted
to make this film and I and I had this
idea and I made this film. Before we get to
the film, so what are those acts you're you're working with. Well,
at the moment, it's Jacob Dylan, Fiona Apple, who I've

(01:25:39):
known and for twenty five plus years, Cat Power, and
a singer named Jade Costrinos who was in the band
called Edward Sharpen the Magnetic Serios. Okay, so let's get
back to the movie. So you're sitting on the couch.
You see this movie the model Model Shop, Model Shop,
excuse me, and then you decide, okay, uh, we should

(01:26:02):
make a record of these old tunes. Continue the story
from there. When we start getting into the songs, I
realized the ones that I'm picking, in the ones that
Jacob is liking, all have stories behind them. And there
are stories that are kind of integral to these bands. Uh,

(01:26:25):
and I just want to know. I want to go
find out the you know, the what's behind the songs
from the people and you know. So we start to
make this record, and you know, in making the record,
because it was a record first, and I get these songs,
and I'm trying to find a way to make, like
in the other records that I made something modern out

(01:26:47):
of something old. How do I synthesize this into something
that's just not tracing paper bar band Hollywood in bar
band shit. And I had this idea of turning these
songs into duets, mainly with women, so that when you
hear never My Love or you hear Expecting to Fly,

(01:27:07):
that those were songs, you know, sung by bye bye
by a bunch of guys or a guy, and I
turned it into a conversation between a man and women
you showed me done by the Turtles written by mcgwyn
and Clark, but when cat Power and Jacob sing it,
it becomes a conversation and it's a great one. And

(01:27:28):
so you know, that gives me the the the impetus
to kind of go further and then take some of
the arrangements of some things like you would hear in
a in a bird song and take the twelve string
and put it in a mom momas in Papa song,
and you know, take this string line that you would
hear here, and you know, and and mix and matches.
It gives you the feeling that you're there in that place.

(01:27:50):
But it's not when you go listen to the original
next but it it's like, whoa, this is way different,
but it feels the same. So how does that have fun?
That to me was interesting and it was fun, and
that's so I started. And then at that point I
was like, well, this is something bigger because the collection
of songs suggests this time and around the time that
we were doing this, we first of all, we read

(01:28:12):
your column about going back. Okay, that's number one, um,
and you know that becomes you know, part of our
our film. But um, it it, you know it. It's
the fiftieth anniversary of the birth of the Birds, and
it really starts with the birds, as you know, when
the Birds electrified folk music in Nive that that changes

(01:28:36):
everything for everyone. And I don't know, you know, and
when we start to make the movie, we think about
the fiftieth anniversary of that, and so I say, you know,
I start to write out a treatment and find somebody
to I mean, so find somebody to believe enough to
to finance it. And I wasn't going to make the film.
I had this treatment and I went to very accomplished

(01:28:58):
documentary filmmakers and I said, look, yeah, it was like
a rock critic giving them some rock critic theory bullshit.
And I said, look, this is an important thing. And
they're like, nah, I don't want to do it now.
I need two million dollars. That's like, okay, wait a minute,
all right. So somebody said to me, look, you hired
video directors. You ran all the marketing and you know advertising,

(01:29:18):
and your company you make records. You know these people,
some of them. You make the movie. I said, I
can't make I'm not a director. They said, sure you are,
you can do it. Because I didn't want to find somebody.
They said, you just get this. So I called this
producer and I said, you know, get me a DP
that I can talk to, that I can show them

(01:29:40):
the phya and get me an editor and then then
let's see what we can do. And and you know,
that's that becomes the you know, the beginning of of
of making the film. But you know, the the that
period we started by thinking it's going to be the
electrification of folk music and how people migrate from New

(01:30:01):
York to l A. And that's the story. And as
I find out, as documentary filmmakers later told me, you
found out everything we all find out, which is the
story is not where you think it is, but the
story is somewhere else, and you find the story. And
what I found by talking to these people was that California,
which was the ultimate horizontal city, the promised land, the

(01:30:24):
land of freedom where anything is possible. Um, you know,
you could go and and and and electrify folk music.
And so for me, I used it, expecting to fly
as a sort of frame for this film. Uh, the
beginning obviously the beginning of the end. And and really
to me, that song represents a few things. I mean

(01:30:45):
that song, you know, it's about the end of a relationship.
But even in the title, it's like it suggests, no
matter how outlanded your dreams are, you think they're going
to come true, which is like that era. And as
we know, that kind of boundless optimism never lasts. But
you know, that period, it really is there. What the

(01:31:05):
story that I find is that there's really three periods
of Little King. There's the period where they were Roger
mcgwinn sees the hard Day's Night, sees the twelve string
takes the twelve string electric tosting electrifies folk music, and
every band comes to California because they are supposed to
be the American beatles that got the velvet collars, they
got the whole thing. And and that period of being

(01:31:28):
in a band, you know, which is explored in the film,
is really about multiple singers and multiple songwriters and that
collective energy that they all saw in a Hard Day's Night.
Hey we're traveling around. Hey, look isn't this great? We're
like our little gang and they all come here and
that period ends, and and in the film you really
find out, you know, Michelle tells you it ends partly

(01:31:49):
because she liked Danny and John, and you know, Crosby
tells you that the Birds are you know, and because
he's as he says, he was an asshole, and it's
sort of tied in some ways to him wanting to
put Tryad on the Bird's record and they going back
because they want to have a hit. And Steven Stills
tells you, okay, we we were had a wealthy material,

(01:32:11):
but it was divergent directions and in the end, you know,
there's Neilly Young in the end, you know, as on
the search for the individual, because after the band period,
there is the psychedelic period, and after the psychedelic period,
it's a retrenchment back to country rock and roots. And
I'm telling you things you're you already know, Bob, and
it're written about, but it becomes the search for the individual.

(01:32:31):
So it's not Buffalo Springfield. It's Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young.
And so for me, I wanted to explore the idea
of the band and that period and the thing that
you know, I think with the film, I was sitting
there and because the contemporary record business had rejected me
in that moment and I left Capital, I was rejecting it,

(01:32:53):
and so I looked back at this film, you know,
and I just thought to this time when things were
much simpler and it wasn't so complicated, and I didn't
have corporate governance and ship on top of me, and
and so it sent me to to somehow interpret and

(01:33:14):
pay homage to that music that I loved that I
listened to on w ABC and Cousin Brucey and w
m c A. And I was a good guy, and
I heard good vibrations and I heard California dreaming, and
I thought, God, there's this place. I'm in my little
concrete park playing stoop ball and stickball, and it's cold,
and that place that that looks like it does and

(01:33:36):
it's a mad, mad, mad mad world with the big
w and it's beautiful by the sea, and you know,
and and that's what I wanted to celebrate and the
place we live when time was simpler. Because if you
squint your eyes and you drive around l A, you know,
and you're always on the edge of nature. There's a
coyote in your right, there's you know, and it's that

(01:33:56):
that thing between the city and nature. And I just
need to find a way to give my own creative
interpretation like those writers did of that time, and this
film really represents that for for me. Okay, anybody who
refused to be interviewed, not really. I mean, each one

(01:34:18):
of those bands is a documentary in itself. The Beach Boys,
the Bird, the Moms and Pop is the Buffalo Springfield.
I mean, you know, they all and even some of
those individual members. So to try to, you know, build
a singular narrative that takes you from the rick and
back or twelve string through that sort of period of

(01:34:39):
the bands, you know, to why bands break up, to
the search for the individual, you know, kept it narrow
and there's no one really else that we wanted to
talk to. You know. Again, we we used Neil Young
as the sort of metaphor at the end for the
search for the individual. You know, when Steven tells you

(01:35:00):
right leaves the band gonna be on TV to be
on the Johnny Carson Show, and you know, and expecting
to fly was really his warning sign and that, you know,
and that is also that is also the song that
I feel like his arrangement with Jack Nietsi was a
kind of nod to a day in the life on
Sergeant Pepper. It's their California version of that, I think,

(01:35:22):
and and that ushers in the psychedelic period in a sense.
And and so that's why, you know, that's the end
of the movie, and that's the place. How does get
in the movie, Well, we were trying to find also
the the the arc of how people were influenced in England.
You know, we knew the Beatles, look, I mean in
the film it you know, you learned that that bells

(01:35:46):
are Rimney by the Birds influenced George Harrison to write
if I Needed Someone, which goes on Robert Soul, which
Brian Wilson tells you in the film he heard which
makes him write pet Sounds, which the Beatles here and
day write Sergeant Pepper. And in in doing this, you
know the other people that came from England at the time.

(01:36:07):
Obviously Cream was you know, one of the biggest bands
in the world at that time English band, along with
the Beatles and the Stones. Uh, And we just wanted
to we knew he had a connection to California and
to Laurel Canyon. And when he tells you that that
head Sounds was the thing that the Cream was aspiring
to do. I mean, I've never heard that before. And

(01:36:30):
then he tells you that Let It Rain was inspired
by Questions, And Stephen tells you that that that Questions
was inspired by since you've asked, so the film is
really more about the echo of people's ideas than it
is about the canyon. The canyon is the place that
the canyon is the place where it takes where it
all sort of happens. But you know, and the other

(01:36:52):
thing is that that we shot a lot of stuff
in the rooms where these things were recorded, and we
recorded in those rooms, and you know, to me, having
worked there a lot in my life with Macy, with Fiona,
with the Wallflowers, I I always was so humbled by
those rooms and the feeling I got when I went

(01:37:13):
in there, and they were always beautiful to me, and
so I wanted to shoot them in a way that
they could be beautiful because Bob, I don't know if
they're going to be here in ten years, because the
with the you know, with Hollywood and the expansion of Hollywood,
a single story building on Sunset's worth a lot of
land value, and I just don't know if those guys

(01:37:35):
are going to be able to hold out when somebody says,
here's fifty million bucks. And you know, so remember that
the human voice. What we love about the human voe,
what we love about Sinatra, you know. Besides the tone
of his voice is what happens when an echo chamber,
When that voice is projected an echo chamber, that's what
gives a voice depth, you know, and in some ways,

(01:37:56):
you know, changes the tonality of things in those rooms.
It's sunset sound. I mean, you know, some of them
are gone. You know, Columbia Studios is gone. You know,
gold Stars, Brian tells you he loved the echo of
gold Star. That's gone, but those rooms still have it.
In fact, I ran into I was at book soup
and I ran into Jimmy Page, who I only no peripherally.
I don't really know him, but I ran into him

(01:38:17):
a couple of times, and we were talking about we
were talking about Bells are Rimney because he had done
a I think he recorded a version of Bells round
the end. We were talking about and he said, you
know the bells from me that guitar Mcquin's guitar that
sounds like the echo chambered studio on its sunset sound,
doesn't it? And you know, so for him and for

(01:38:39):
Mick and Makers to to have that specific a sense
about it, like it was a Strata barius, you know,
I has a specific guitar. Is is something powerful? So
you know, Echo in the Canyon is you know, hopefully
a documentation of of of a great moment in Los
Angeles history. Okay, Brian Wilson is surprisingly loose see it

(01:39:00):
in your movie? Did you just get them when he
was locked on? Or was he loosened the whole time
you interviewed him. Well, I'll tell you. When we went
to talk to Brian, I had never met him, and
even though I had you know, rand Capital for seven
years and we put out sounds of the summer and stuff.
But I said to somebody who was friends with him, Hey,

(01:39:21):
you know what, what what should I do here? Because
you know I worshiped the guy and you know, I
mean and Bob. When you think about it, the Beatles
had George Martin, and George Martin was the arranger. The
Beach Boys had Brian Wilson. That was all in his head.
He was standing there with those you know, incredible musicians,
string players, the Wrecking Crew adults, and he was his

(01:39:42):
kid with these ideas. So I just, you know, the
the magnitude of of that I had to kind of,
you know, put aside to get to capture the stuff
on film. And I said to somebody, hey, when we
talked to him, you know what, what what do we do? Like?
What you like? And what is it? And he said, well,
you know, Brian, he loves food, you know, don't you know,

(01:40:05):
don't just launch into some stuff like talk to him.
I said, okay, So when Brian came to the set,
he sat down and you do the interview, and I said,
and you know, he knew I had worked there. You know,
somebody told him i'd worked there. And I said, hey, man,
you you work at the studio and he goes, oh yeah.
I said you like chicken? He goes, I love chicken.

(01:40:27):
I said, you know, this is this chicken place called
al Wazire Chicken. You know this down the street. You
ever had it? He no. I go, oh man, this
is the best. I used to eat this stuff every day.
This is the best chicken in Hollywood. And he was like, oh,
we had we did ten minutes on Alba's here Chicken
and you know, and then luckily, you know, he didn't

(01:40:48):
have to answer for the fiftieth time how you know
how genius the arrangement and good Vibrations was okay, but
you know they're playing and I forget the song. I
just wasn't made for these times, right, And he says, uh,
you know what key? He immediately knows what key and
what they're playing. It not a change. It's like, you know,
it's like a lightning striking from the sky. Well, I

(01:41:09):
don't hope Brian well enough to tell you if this
is true, But you know, maybe he just doesn't want
to talk to everybody, so he goes to that. You know,
if he wants to talk to you, he'll talk to you.
And if he's doesn't, he'll just kind of say, well,
I'm Brian, and then I'm not going to give it
to you. Well, actually a new movie is coming out.
Interview with Brian Wilson, the editor Jason Fine of Rolling
Stone Shirt goes around in a car. I'll save the

(01:41:32):
story for him, but making the movie, Okay, what are
two things you learned that you didn't know? That I
have to have a lot of respect for filmmakers because
it is a incredibly difficult job, and that I probably
could not have done it in any point in my
life if I had not done every job in a writer,

(01:41:55):
in a record producer and a musician and an executive,
because of what it takes to really piece it together.
So you know, I also learned that the film business
is UH is a difficult place, and music business is
like a playground that I can go on. And but

(01:42:15):
that would be a different riff. You know. The way
I always say is, you know, you could everybody can
listen to a record and whether the person be ten
or seventy five, they'll say, well, had a good beat,
and I could dance to it. But you put a
five year old in front of a TV show and say, well,
the plot wasn't believable. I didn't like that. Everybody's got
a damn viewpoint in the film business, never mind the

(01:42:37):
money in the distribution. I will tell you that there
were people who said to me, just put the concert footage.
What is all this stuff with the thing with the eck?
Come on? And I was like, oh god, I do
remember this. I remember when I you know, it reminded
me of a moment UH when I had first produced

(01:42:58):
Shadow Boxer and Fiona and I went to meet Donnie
Ironer and I had the demo there to you know,
to get to get the funding to do to do
the record. We end of the office and Donnie said,
that's fantastic. This is just like visions of Love, Mariah Carrie.
You know, visions that's what you need to make this.
You need to make this. You don't listen to them,

(01:43:20):
I need to make visions of love. And Fiona looked
at me like with horror on her face as we
were walking out of there, and I, you know, because
I had said, oh, okay, yeah, it's just like ah
six eight, it's a waltz all so yeah, I see
where you're going with this. Yeah. Yeah, And you know,
I walked out the office and to me like what
and I was like no, no, no no, no, no, no no.
We just tell him, yes, we just get the money.

(01:43:40):
What do we want? You know. But the same thing
in the film business, you know, when you're trying to
get money from people, you just you know, unfortunately, you
have to be right. I mean, you know, you have
to have something that has success because because if you're wrong,
they never talked to you again. Luckily, in the music business,
you know, I people made money every time I asked
them for money and they get give me money to

(01:44:00):
do things. Um, I was only doing things, and I
thought I could, you know, make something interesting. But the
film thing is very was was very tough, and because
it takes more money, and and you you know, when
you make a song as a producer, you listen down
three minutes, you know what you got, You go to sleep,

(01:44:20):
you wake up the next day, you listen three minutes.
You get to a certain point when you're making a film.
You have to watch the hour and a half film
to know what's going on. And in the course of
making this film, there were things that I really wanted
to cover. I wanted to cover the sunset strip and
love in the beginning of garage rock. And I wanted
to cover the Monkeys because they were you know, Hollywood
interpretation of the Beatles. And and you realize that as

(01:44:44):
the narrative is being developed, and as you're you're sitting there,
somebody becomes an elbow and it becomes too long, and
it could be two minutes, but you've got to watch
an hour and a half all the time to really
get it. Just like a song, you know, when you
think the bridge is too long or turn and it's
so you think you watched it, I have to say
five hundred. I mean, it just it's what it's what

(01:45:07):
it takes. And when you're doing the sound, and when
you're doing the mix and you're doing dialogue and you
have to do then you have to do the the
underscore and the dialogue and the some of the effects
that you're using, and you know, then the mix, the
mix changes things. So you know, it's like it's like
three D record making. You know, it's not five one.
You know, it's not a five one mix of record

(01:45:28):
because you've got picture and you and and you've got
the color of the picture, and you know all the
time you've got old footage and you want to try
to blend things. And so I love the process of that.
I love being able to create it. I I love
that somebody gave me the opportunity and gave me the
money to do it. And I hope I can make
their money back for them, Like would you make another movie? Well,

(01:45:49):
I have the rights to to uh to another film
and and to another story, another music story, and I
and I'm a little beat up to beg for three years.
Well yeah, you know so, I but I do want
to do it. I mean, the miraculous thing about this
film is that somebody decided they liked it and they

(01:46:13):
were going to put it at the Cinerama Dome, and
you know, and that's where the arc Light wants to
show him in the arc Light. They you can't really
tell them what to do. They know they have the
best movie theater in America. And you know, obviously the
Landmark has a you know, has a great game has
a great theater here too. So I am just, uh,

(01:46:33):
you know, not shocked, but but really in awe the
fact that the place that premiered Apocalypse Now and e
T and Star Wars uh, and it's the premier movie
house in America. It's eight hundred seats. It's when you
go in there, it's incredible that they wanted to show
the film there and premiere the film there. So I'm

(01:46:54):
that's Ma's And then how long untill people the rest
of the country can see? Uh? It opens in New
York had May thirty one, after that at the at
the Angelica and at the Landmark of Town, and then
it goes to San Francisco, San Diego, Chicago, Boston and
all the cities in June fourteen one, and as of

(01:47:15):
now it's a it's at fifty cities. But the one
good thing about what's happening on if this is relevant, uh,
the band is going to play music that night. After
the performance, they're gonna we're gonna do music four nights
in the in the cineramadon which they've never done four

(01:47:36):
nights in a row. And on one of those nights,
Steven Stills is going to play, and Cat Power's gonna play,
and Jacob's gonna play, and it's it's it's gonna be. Uh,
it's gonna be a great celebratory event with the old
and the new. Okay, you've been wonderful, Andy. You know
we could really go on for hours. You've done a
good job of telling your story and keeping it in interesting.

(01:47:59):
That's the Andy s leader, writer and director of the
new film Echo in the Canyon, and you've heard in
the podcast all the other things he's accomplishing the music business. Andy,
thanks for coming. Thank you, Bob. Okay, until next time,
it's the Bob Left Sets Podcast.

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