Linda Perry

That's right, the singer/writer of the 4 Non Blondes hit "What's Up," as well as the composer of hit songs for Pink, Christina Aguilera and Gwen Stefani, Linda Perry is a songwriter nonpareil, and a producer too! Her fingerprints are all over tracks from Adele to Weezer, and furthermore, she's a member of the Songwriters Hall of Fame. But first and foremost, Linda's an opinionated original, someone working to bring the glory days of rock back. Listen.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Bob left That's Podcast. My
guest today is Linda Perry. I saw her speak recently
at Canadian Music Week and she was speaking the truth
when everybody else blokes smoke up wannabe's asses. Linda, good
to be here, Hi, Bob Okay. One of the things
you said it really impressed me in in Toronto was

(00:32):
you're looking for rock stars and you didn't see any
rock stars in the room. Defined from my audience what
a rock star is for me personally, everybody has their
own version of a rock star, but for me, Patti
Smith was a rock star, Keith Richards, Mick Jagger, Bowie
kiss Um, Chrissie Hines, Janice Joplin. To me, a rock

(00:56):
star is somebody who you just know they're something. They
walk a different beat, there's something different about the way
they talk. Um Jesus was a rock star, you know,
and Um. But you get, you know, attracted to this
person and want to know more about them because on

(01:17):
stage or off stage, they're kind of the same. They
have you know, I know, like for Freddie Mercury, when
he's on stage, he's more flamboyant and more you know,
big personality, right, and from what I've heard that when
he's not on stage, he's still he has a smaller personality.
But no matter what, he's a star. So I feel

(01:39):
like we have a lot of celebrities, we have a
lot of kids that are influencers, but as far as
rock stars, I'm I find it very hard and very
rare to find. Okay, So why do you think there
are a fewer rock stars today than there were before?
Because the generation sans Um after the nineties was the

(02:05):
last rock star. In fact, what's funny about the nineties
is it was about the biggest rock stars, but it
was an anti rock star. Well we're talking about Kurt
Cobain after here here be in music Settle exactly. But
those Kurt Cobain was a full on rocks you know, Cornell,
full on Pearl Jam everybody. And we had Um, Courtney Love,

(02:31):
you know, so many incredible bands and they were full
on rock stars even though they anti rock stars. Well
I just remember this that story. Nirvana was in South
America and uh they were there, Courtney Love was there
and Courtney says, listen, we're gonna take the limo. No

(02:52):
it's not punk, No, one's gonna say says, no, I
can't take the limo. You know, but I think that
what happened there is it introduced unfortunately. Um, hey, hey, Bob,
Steven Larry, you can get on stage and being a

(03:12):
band now because you can wear your board shorts. Uh.
You know, you could basically wake up in the morning
and go on stage and that's the way you can look.
And you don't have to be a flashy dresser. You
don't have to have pizzas, you know, you don't have
to have any of that. Because Nirvana and the grun
scene basically said the you know, Joe Schmo is okay

(03:37):
to be on the stage because that's what they are promoting,
like the anti rock star. And but what's funny about
those those guys were the most rock star guys because
they had so much you know, there's a lot of attitude.
There was like this fixation to not be rock stars,
which made them rock stars. Okay, how do you compare
that to the punk era of the late seventies. Well,

(03:58):
the you know, as far as my I mean, let's
see and this late seventies and I mean I'm eleven,
twelve years old, and then everybody picks up. You know,
that was sort of a different thing because Seattle, these
were accomplished musicians. Yeah, I don't, I don't. There's you

(04:20):
can whatever you want with this conversation and this one statement,
there's nothing punk about the Seattle scene, So I don't
know where that. Okay, it was a similar thing there,
but we won't go no, no, no no. It was
not a similar thing musically at all, and vibe wise,
it was not punk rock. I remember punk. I was
a punk rocker. I was ten when, you know, I

(04:42):
listened to the Ramones, but I grew up, you know
with that whole scene. I mean I was at the
mosh pits. I broke my ankles maching, you know, with
no shoes on. I mean I had razor blades and
I cut my arm. I mean, not full on. But
what I'm just trying to say. The music compared to
that completely different, as you know. But the attitude to

(05:05):
me was very different because punk rock didn't give a
shit about anything, and it seemed like the whole grunge
scene they did give a ship about being seen as
rock stars and this other whole thing. They wanted to
really perceive that we are not rock stars. We are normal,
but they're but they're not. They weren't at all, you know,

(05:25):
at least punk rockers. They were down in the dungeons, playing,
you know, in these crappy fucking venues with a bunch
of spit all over them, sweaty kids and jamming out.
I mean, they didn't fucking care at all, you know.
So it's to me that's not the same thing. Okay.
Uh would we say being a rock star is the

(05:46):
same as being charismatic? Absolutely? Um, I think there's a
lot of charisma obviously and rock stars. That's part of
the problem is I feel like we are not dealing
with that hype of swagger. You know, it's sexy, It's

(06:07):
sexy in a whole other way. It's like, you know,
Jamie Chaplin was sexy, but there was nothing sexy about her,
you know. And um, you know Patti Smith, Stevie Nicks,
like Blondie. I mean, they were so cool and like

(06:29):
there's a whole other sexiness going on because they're powerful women,
or at least portraying them. And what I'm having an
issue with is a lot of um, you know, Beyonce
is a rock star, of course, Pink is you know,
there's there's rock stars. I'm not sure I would. Well,

(06:49):
she's a different type of rock star. She's like, you know,
she's got Pink's very very thoughtful about what she's doing
in her life. I guess, you know, I guess for me.
And this is a small item, the way she does
the acrobatic act at every show to the point where
it's a feature of the show. If you go back
to you know, Alice Cooper, every show was different, Yeah,
but it was. But everybody does that. I mean that

(07:11):
the the whole thing is Again, that would be a
perfect example of when you're great, you can I mean
I toured with Neil Young for two months and every
single show was incredibly different. And he had booker team,
the mg S at the time, and I was sitting
there at that you know, at the stage just every

(07:32):
show watching him. I was just like, oh my god,
Neil Young, right, and every solo was different. And then
and then they would just watch him and then you
could tell he's, oh, he's gonna he's not gonna do
the normal and then he had flipped and they would
be right there with him. And for me, what that was,
it's like great, incredibly gifted, you know, sense sensitive musicians

(07:57):
that are paying attention to the artist and the singer
and the song and they know by just a feeling
an instinct what's going to happen. And the fact that
Neil Young felt compelled to drive himself every single night
to be a better you know, make a better solo
or you know what, I'm gonna take the solo on

(08:18):
piano instead. I mean, it was so incredible watching him.
We are not dealing with that level of artist anymore.
Let's go drill down right there though. Um Bob Dylan
is very much a rock star, but he's on tour now,
it has been for essentially thirty years rearranging the songs.
How do you feel about that? Well, I feel if

(08:42):
you're going to rearrange the songs to bring more honesty
back into your voice and into the song, because after what,
you know, thirty years, singing the same song can get
quite you know, So if you have to do that
and to put more life back in to reignite the

(09:06):
flame of how you sung that song and the energy,
I'm all for it. But if you're doing it to
be relevant or follow anything that's going on in today's time,
I'm very disappointed in that he's definitely doing making interesting
for himself, which I applaud, But to what degree do

(09:26):
you owe a debt to your audience? Well, and what
do degree does the audience owe the person that they're idolizing,
you know, the space to create? Well, I guess the
fascinating story and this goes back to when you were
very young. Neil Young had a huge hit with Heart
of Gold. Okay, after that was a hit in the

(09:48):
spring of seventy two, he went on on arena tour.
The ultimate album was called Time Fades Away, but he
stood up with an electric band and didn't play any
of the sawt stuff from Harvest. Uh. Now, it's very interesting.
He has a long history of going his own way.
He can really still sell tickets. Were Crosby, Seals and
Nash who are disparate at this particular point in time.

(10:10):
They can't sell anywhere near that number of tickets, right,
And I think that's because people see Neil Young as
a real rock star doing whatever he wants. But you know,
especially with a lot of older people touring, would they
have some level of expectation if they're paying they want Okay, well,
you didn't tell me about that part. If it's like

(10:31):
you know, legacy artists going back on on tour, I say,
don't try to play as a bunch of new songs
that aren't even equivalent to the level of the older
songs that people know, because it's not like, honestly, honestly,
it's not like anybody's gonna go, oh yeah, I'm gonna
go buy that new Crosby Steals and Nash album. You know,

(10:52):
it's not gonna happen. They're gonna want the older songs.
And unfortunately, that to me is where yes, it would
probably very you know, upsetting to those artists. Like if
I had to go if I were an artist still
and I had to go out and perform for an
oblongs you know, songs till I was seventy eight years
old and nobody wanted to hear anything new, I had

(11:13):
to say, I'd be bummed out. But the truth is,
if no one wants to hear anything knew that you have,
you know, have to say, that means you haven't had
anything to say in quite a while. And the only
songs that stood out are the ones that you pushed yourself,
you know, to make money. To go on a tour
and do all these things. But what happens is that
you can never get rid of the artist. Bob, We're

(11:35):
always going to be an artist, and so Crosby Seals
and ash just you know, it's still gonna want to go. Hey, guys,
come on, let's do it. Let's write a great song.
Let's try to beat you know, our old you know, oldies,
and they're gonna try to go out there and they
might fool themselves into believing that they are and you
know what, and they possibly could, but no one's going

(11:56):
to hear it because it's for the first time and
we spent a decade in twenty or two decades listening
to these incredible songs that have been a soundtrack to
our lives. You know. But let's let's go deeper on
one of those points. Let's assume you've had a period
of hits, six or seven well known slumps. Do you
think the people ten or twenty years later are capable

(12:18):
of writing another hit? Absolutely, I absolutely do. I feel
that the problem happens when people want to be relevant,
when they start thinking that they need to write a
song that sounds like today, And the truth is Nobody
wants a song from Neil Young that sounds like today.

(12:39):
They want Neil Young, Um, Carly Simon, they want Carly,
they want Dolly. I mean when I worked with Dolly,
for example, I just took her songs and recreated them
in a very organic way that I thought, what would
Dolly do right now if she had total control of this?
And I just simplified everything. And then the songs we
wrote were awesome. We wrote six songs in two days

(13:01):
because we weren't trying to chase anything. We just it
was just Dolly and Linda and and that's those were
the songs that Lynda and Dolly wrote. And Dolly was like,
these are to me equally as powerful as my songs
and and you know, my my other material. And I said,
I agree, and I told her, I said, but the
thing is, we've had years to live with Joline and

(13:23):
all these other songs. These songs are not going to
be accepted as well, but we don't care because they're
not going to have the level of you know, intimacy
with these songs as they have with your other stuff.
And that's what it comes down to. But when people
want to be relevant and start being modern. It's to me,
that's a buzz kill. I agree with you, but today's

(13:47):
marketplace if we can talk about radio, which is decreasing
and importance, lets you just stay with pop laeve country
in its own world for now it is unless you're
hip hop or who are you? Where did you come from?
I just want to get okay, asked me specific questions
and all the answer how did you start here doing
the podcast? And I was on I was on the

(14:09):
Recode podcast. This goes back a few years ago, um
and with Peter Kafka, and then all of a sudden,
all these people were tracking that be down to do
a podcast. Okay, So ultimately I went with this company
tune In. Tune In is well known there there the
if you get the app or you go online, you
can listen to any radio station all over the world.

(14:31):
So I was with tune in for a year and
now I'm with my Heart And uh, that's a general
story of how that podcast. Any more questions I'll answer, Well,
I mean I'm just curious because it's like, honestly, when
um my assistant, he was like, uh, Bob just sent
you an email and I knew of you, but I'm

(14:54):
not that verse in what you're a rock star, like
your personality is a total rock star. But I was like, okay,
well let me let me you know. You know, I
grew up in Connecticut and I was born in nineteen
fifty three. I was fifty miles from New York City.
As a result, in New York media, New York TV,
New York Radio, etcetera. And my mother would buy us

(15:16):
like Big Girls, Don't Cry, by the Four Seasons, etcetera.
And I became a huge Jan and Dean fan. And
then the Beatles hit music drove the culture. If you
want to know which way the wind blew, you listen
to music. And of course the first UH underground station
was case Sand. They might say in Pasadena, but let's
just say in in UH San Francisco. And then they

(15:38):
had them starting in nineteen in New York City, so
you immediately flipped there. And it was free form radio
and there were all these great acts, so you bought
these records. My parents. There was always money if it
was cultural. If you said, hey, I wanted a car,
forget it, I want money to go to a concert,
no problem. But everybody was into music, which one of

(16:00):
the reasons why all the baby boomeracks can do such
great live business at this day. So um two, I
went to college. You know, I went to college because
you're supposed to go to college, not because I thought
I want to learn anything. I'm gonna study anything. Whatever.
So I went to this college, Middlebury College in Vermont,
because very beautiful, and it's has some stature, and they

(16:23):
had their own ski area. I was very into skiing.
Little did I know that of the people were prep
school kids. Okay, they have a completely different background like
they had Kavanaugh whatever. I know those people they've been
living apart from their parents for years. That's where I learned.
You don't have to hand in anything on time, profess No,
just as for an extension public school, you couldn't do that.

(16:44):
But the first semester you got to a small school
like that, we you had to take an English class.
And I called the professor on a Sunday and so
can I do something creative? And he said yes. I
never called a professor after that, but that was the
one time I did. You know, if you where I
went to college, You've got three B minuses in a D.
That was Dean's list. I mean it was really you know,

(17:07):
an A was a real thing. So I got an
A on this paper I wrote, and oh, you know,
first of all, I told the prep school kids what
it was about, said, oh, you're gonna funk. I got
an A. And this was before phones in dorms, and
I went to the pay phone and I told my
mother to be a writer, and she laughed. Okay, So
the next year I went to uh take the creative

(17:30):
writing course from the one guy who taught it at
Middlebury who was a failed c writer. Okay. When I
would read, it would be like springtime for Hitler. People
just jaws would drop. The producers. To be very specific,
I went to see Alice Cooper on the Killer tour
in Boston and I wrote about that, and the guy

(17:51):
finally said, hey, that was good, but it needed a twist.
And I'm like, flip it out a twist. You ever
heard of the new journalism, which is already over. There's
no twist. I never wrote another thing, Okay. I always
want to be in the music business. Lived a couple
of years years in Utah, being a failed freestyle skier.
My father always wanted me to go to law school.

(18:12):
I went to law school because at the time a
lot of the labels were run by lawyers. Okay, and
my father is a real estate appraiser before they owned
a liquor store. Nobody we know is in the music business.
And it was terrible. But I fell with someone that
I lived with that carried me through law school and
certainly if I went to law SCHOOLMA pass the bar,
which I do, and I passed the first time. I

(18:33):
practiced for like ten minutes. And I don't know how
much detail I have to give, but ultimately I worked
for Sanctuary Music and with Iron Maiden and Loss. This
is in the eighties, and we had enough clout and
money that we would hire independent PR people. This is
when the labels were king, and these were very rich

(18:53):
deals to begin with. And you would get the bios
from the PR people and they say, this is just terrible.
I couldn't send this out and I started to rewrite it,
so then I got I lost my job, Okay, over
a creative issue. This is kind of interesting. I told
him banned. The mix was terrible, and I got the

(19:16):
guy Dwayne Baron who just done Quiet Riot to remix
it and it was listenable. But I was giving the
level of input and said, you gotta go. So that's
the kind of job you make a lot of money
because you can't spend it. You're working around the clock.
And eventually I worked on a couple of movies because
I've been in the movie business as a lawyer, and
after that, and then I ran out of money. Okay,

(19:37):
So then my psychiatrist sent me to a job counselor.
There's a famous book called What Color Is Your Parachute?
It's about seeking jobs. But I didn't know there was
a workbook. He gives me. The workbook says, right, sick,
you have to write success as brag about yourself. And
I wrote the success and I said, yeah, this is
what I wanted to be ten years before. So I

(19:59):
get out my writer from college electric type right, and
I type up some stuff and I sent it to
magazines and you get some nice note back. Those back
you Holy sh it. This is just like the music business.
You have to know somebody. So I was eating a
hamburger at a place called Flaky Jake's. Now it's like
a jewelry store at Pico and Sepulvida, and I'm reading Billboard,

(20:19):
which has been up and down it's down again. After
it was down period, Timothy White made a little better
for a minute in the early nineties. I said this
is terrible. I could do a better job than this,
And all of a sudden, I said, you know you
can buy computers. You get me, maybe you can do this.
So I had a credit card, five thousand dollars credit,
I bought a Mac Plus and I started this newsletter.

(20:41):
Only if the newsletter come out every two weeks, and
it came out religiously every two weeks. Not gonna be
a flake on the same fucking day, Okay. So every
article was a tip in the music business. Tip really
means radio what what they're playing. This would be insight
in how to run your business. And I had a
threshold that I said, this number of people has to

(21:02):
have to subscribe Rose, I'm gonna stop. I sent three
free issues. What astounded me was only the most successful
people subscribed because the people further down the food chain,
they couldn't hear anything contrary. They were going. So the
heads of every labeler calling me, they want to hang.
The only person who ever canceled their subscription was Clive Davis.

(21:23):
He's a story unto himself and then you know, I think, well,
I'll do some consulting. Bah bah bahm. Then my ex
wife moves out and I brought out on money. It's
really terrible. The nineties were kind of a lost decade.
But I had a free subscription to a O L
still writing the newsletter when you had a paid by
the minute, so I knew everything about tech. I'm also

(21:43):
a lawyer. All of a sudden, Napster hits. To be
very specific, this guy, David Krebs calls me when it
was irving on the West coast, irving as office the manager.
Krebs was on the East coast. He had a C
d C. He had new Ginny at Aeros Smith. He
calls me and he goes, we are all the acts
on Napster, okay, And I say, this is a good point,

(22:05):
and I write it in one of my newsletters. And
I get a call from Cliff Bernstein, who I knew
was one half of the Q Prime operation, and as
a result they sued Metallica. That's how it all went.
Metallica's Napster. But I became the expert on the intersection
of music in the Internet, and I didn't now just
to be that a little flavor. I was earlier than

(22:29):
everybody just because I was there. Like I would go
to the you know, the shrink and talk about Internet hate.
They have no idea what you're talking about. I mean
now Jimmy Kimmel does it on TV. Okay, so other
opportunities become. First five years, you had to email me.
I let subscriptions run out, but you have to email
me to get on the list. That was just to

(22:49):
go one step further. It used to be you had
to send to physical addresses. I go to this conference
every year and Aspen in December, and in for the
first time, they gave email addresses. I had friends working
in the publishing book business. There was a book about
UH David Geffen called The Operator, which I recommend people

(23:11):
listened to. And I had it a weekend before anybody,
and I wrote about it and send it to the
ask for people. Incredible. Then I started hearing from people
like Jefferson Hold he was the original manager of R. E.
M okay and UH okay, it's great, you're into me,
but how did you get it? You know? And he says, well,
you know, I got it from what Williams The UH

(23:32):
the a and R Guy, so he's not on the
list either. So I experienced virality, but there's a lot
of blowback. This is like being a rock star now
more than ever because people because once you rise above
it's not quite like Cannon in England, but they're trying
to bring you back down. So I didn't automate the
mailing list till two thousand five, and by that time

(23:52):
I could kind of handle the feedback. I also had
a mission because I was aware of what I was
under the illusion that the record companies would suite Napster,
which I knew was copyright infringement. I was a lawyer,
even though I friends with the guys at Napster at
this point um and I assumed when they won the case,
then they would license Napster one of these other things,

(24:15):
which they didn't. So I said, I want to get
to the point when Spotify ended up being, which was
pay a load price, you can get all the music. Okay.
I figured that's what the public wants. So I mean,
I was the number one person on all these issues
they gave free subscription to. I have no investment in

(24:36):
any of these things, otherwise it couldn't comment. And you know,
I generated more more free subscribers when they launched in
two thousand eleven than anybody else. They gave you know
stuff too. But what happened was in the music business
sixties and seventies, music drove the culture. If you wanted
to know what was going on, you bought a record. Okay.
Then it kind of died at the end of the

(24:57):
seventies with core rock disco. Then it blew up so
and CBS Columbia Records laid awful lot of people. Then
MTV came along and there was a resurgen. First it
was the old acts. Then as a result of Culture
Club and Duran Duran, you had new acts. But as
you hit the late eighties, it started to become more

(25:18):
about the video and how people looked as opposed to
their underlying abilities and the song. But that played out
through the nineties and then the year two thousand came,
everything blew apart. But once it was I believe maybe
when every it was it was so weird experience. Everybody
got a subscription to a O L and they started

(25:39):
to play. So for twenty years, Internet drove the culture. Okay,
From five, you're buying a new gadget, you where everybody's
talking about a new app that's solidified right now, Politics,
especially in America, is driving the culture. So just to
go some of these issues that we have. When I
grew up wrong, middle class, Okay, there were beautiful people,

(26:03):
but they might be in the art class. They were not.
You know, you'd say, oh, they're beautiful whatever, they're living
in another planet. They became the artists, okay. And then
you had people like the Jefferson airplane, you know, up
against the wall. Motherfucker. These are middle class people. They
can speak their truth when life became so hard. And
I'm gonna piss people off at Reagan legitimized greed. Today,

(26:24):
today's kids are very sophisticated. It's a very hard life
out there. You can't make it on minimum wage. And
I believe the lower classes, as opposed to the middle classes,
are going into music and they'll do what people tell
them to do, where the middle class they won't. So
I think you have to mix that in. In addition,
you have to go to the point where the business

(26:45):
is not aligned with reality. If you'll get pull started
the touring bible and you look what's selling tickets, it's
far wider than the Spotify Top fifty. So we have
an industry that still thinks there's a top ten, and
maybe you can boil it down to a top ten.
But there's a million other things happening, and these things
like I want to see the Tansky Trucks band last week.

(27:08):
I mean I've met you know. People think I found
him yesterday. I met you know, Derek Trucks when he
was playing with the Allman Brothers fifteen years ago. Okay,
they've my frenzy agent. They've been playing for years. If
you go there, the audience, this is like their favorite band.
But if you talk to someone under the age, they've
never even heard of them. So it's a disconnect where
it used to be. If you could sell that many tickets,

(27:29):
everybody would know you. I'll stop my real map. No,
that's amazing. Um, you jumped to so many different places.
But I just want to go back to the eighties
for a second. The eighties may have had bad videos
and some crazy hair due but he takes all those

(27:51):
productions away. There are really good songs in the eighties.
Songs were written in there, but the productions and videos
were for crazy. But eighties is some of my favorite music,
getting a few tracks, a few tracks any soft sell
um Banshees M. There was this band called Everything but

(28:13):
the Girl that I Love Duran Duran, I mean, of course,
how about Culture Club some I was a huge I
went to see them, Yeah, like two years ago. I
was stunned out good it was yeah, you know, my friends.
For some reason, I dug the first you know, the
you know, do you really want to hurt me? But

(28:33):
everything else kind of got a little too much for me.
I guess I wasn't a huge fan the Church of
the Poison Mind, which was on the second really using
the Banshees by far number one now a member. I
was remember the slits who wrote this book. Wasn't Susie
and the Banchees. Okay, that's the eighties. Yeah, but I
got a very quick question. You can ask me a

(28:55):
question any time. How did you get to go on
that Neil Young tour? Well? Um, I was in my
band for an Arbombs and then I left the band,
was it? Yeah? I left the band and um, so
we were in the middle of our second record and
I just couldn't I just couldn't do it. I was like,
I can't do this. Again, Um it wasn't. Um, the

(29:21):
band wasn't for me. And wonderful success, thank you you
know for that. I believe the energy of that was
amazing and it really did, you know, help, but um,
it just wasn't fulfilling me soulfully. And so I got
out of the band, and UM, I think I just

(29:41):
said I wanted to go out on tour with Neil Young,
and I did this record, um, and this record is
in Flight, and I felt that would be perfect for
Neil Young. And then I just got the tour was
a little bit slower. You were the opening up. I
was the opening xt okay, so your agent so my
agent at the time as Danny um Winery Peninsula and um,

(30:05):
and so we got that gig. So some shows was
me opening up and then some shows were the big festivals.
So would be like there was one show we did
in uh Glasgow where it was um Me Pearl Jam,
Neil Young Van Morrison. I mean it was like, you know,
all of a sudden got into these really really cool

(30:28):
things that you know for Blonde's couldn't I mean I
opened up for the who you know, I mean it
was pretty amazing. So um, but that's how that happened.
But yeah, and I would. I told him it's like,
you know, every time you play, I just want to
go out and pick up a truck and I feel
like I can throw it, you know. And there was
I went to see this movie Echo in the Key Union.

(30:49):
I mean they sent me a screener. Okay, So in
the movie they're talking about the competition between acts, how
Brian Wilson is doing something. A lot of this is
well okay, and then the Bill said, holy funk, it's
pet sounds. We have to do better. And I know
exactly what you're talking about. When you when you're kind
of in the game, Holy fuck, it inspires you. As

(31:10):
opposed to today, a lot of times we feel like
we're living in a silo. Yeah, well, you know, again,
going back to a long time question ago, I feel
that digression is a spice of you know, what we're
dealing with is a very you know, I'll just call
it the me generation where it's just me, me, me um.
And I don't think music can come from that place

(31:33):
or or be presented that way because the whole reason,
you know, yes, we want to do music for ourselves,
but it's for ourselves to empower others as well, to
send a message for ourselves having an you know, an
ego or whatever it is, or a political statement or

(31:54):
you know, whatever statement that we have. And I think
that's what the problem is. No one's making a statement
about anything, and the music is just so I don't
even know who is who, you know, but right now,
I mean, I am excited because there's a lot of
great stuff, you know, I feel. I can't tell you what,
but I can feel the energy is shifting right now

(32:16):
and there's a lot of um based on I mean,
I do a lot of panels like what you saw
I do that. I've been doing that like for the
past year and a half straight. And the reason, you know,
I needed to correct your comment, you know that I was,
you know, hurting people. I was like, but that to me,
anytime you tell someone the truth, it's going to hurt

(32:37):
them in some way. Because the point what I was
trying to make is if your mom and your sister
and your family said, oh, Darling, that's so what a
great you know song there, they don't have the right information.
They're lying to you basically because of anybody who told
you that was good is lying to you. And that's

(32:58):
that actually I know that, you know, I say the
exact same thing. Put it up on YouTube or sound cloud,
and forget your friends if they if they are the
planes going up. I'm trying to get kids to go
actually perform, you know, and get off of the socials
because right now, that's to me is what is happening.
That there's a The art of recording is dying, The

(33:21):
art of performing live is dying. The art of you know,
writing a song, it's like that craft, that art of recording, songwriting, performing,
it's not being um. The kids don't know. They don't
know what a rehearsal room is. They don't know that
you can actually get a band together, meet, connect because

(33:42):
they don't understand that part the reasons the reason the
Beatles were so great, it's because there was a connection
with all the members of the band Rolling Stones, just
an airplane, Fleetwood Mac. These are all great connections. Whether
they all get along or not doesn't matter. A connection
is made by all these artists that formed in this band,

(34:04):
that created this huge persona and this incredible music. And
when you listen to you know, these kids getting together
there I don't even know how they're meeting each other.
But what they're not doing is going in a rehearsal room,
figuring out who they are and then getting out there
into the real world. Whether it's your your sister, um

(34:26):
uh's boyfriend Bobby who's having a party down in the
basement when their parents are gone and they want your
band to perform, you get instant reaction right there, like
you can all of a sudden realize, Okay, that song
is not working. People really didn't like that we bombed.
But right now kids are taking I have kids coming

(34:47):
to me and tell me it. Well, you know, I
spent you know, fifteen thousand dollars making this demo and
I don't know how to get it out there, and
you know, um it just seems like nobody wants to
hear it. And then I hear it and I'm like,
did you listen to this? And they're like, yeah, I go,
you should. Who told you to spend fifteen dollars on this?
You don't have one song on here? Who the hell

(35:08):
told you? You know that you that was the best
thing to do. Well, you know, my friend or my parents,
they gave me the money go do this. And then
this guy took the money. Of course, the guy took
the money. You know, he's in it for money. He's
got a studio that he's not making any money. Some
you know, silly kids gonna come in here some five
bad songs. He's gonna take your money, you know. So anyways,

(35:31):
that's what I'm trying to get kids to do, to
kind of get off of the That's why I said
fuck you to those people who get up on stage
and teach these kids about how to make their socials
even bigger, because why what why don't we try to
make them stronger as individuals, stronger as artist, songwriters, performers. First,

(35:52):
why don't we use all your know how and knowledge
to why don't you give them some money and start
some kind of band camp or some kind of thing
to get these kids in there, and then you can
document that and put it on your social media and
you know, explore the possibilities of teaching kids how to
actually be. But the question becomes today's generations are they

(36:13):
more interested in becoming famous or making music? Exactly celebrity.
That's why I said that we are being driven by celebrities.
And you know, someone was saying, well, you know, I
just record the songs and I put them out there.
And I said, you know, people are more precious to
put out a photo on Instagram. They sit there and

(36:36):
they doctor it. They I see kids take pictures like
over and over until they get the right one. Then
they go put it through its filters and do all
this stuff, make sure it looks great, okay great, and
then they put it out there because they know that
that once that is out there, they're not getting it back.
I don't see anybody really doing that with music. I

(36:57):
see music just coming out. Oh I has wrote this today.
Oh it's a great song because my my sister said
it was and my girlfriend loved it. So I'm gonna
put it on my Instagram now and watch the buzz
happen on YouTube and I'm gonna be picked up like
Justin Bieber, you know, and it's like, you know that
that's gone. Now, that's out there in the world, that

(37:18):
piece of ship that you just put out there. Not
only is it bad and it's out in the world,
but it's it's going to clutter get in the way
of something good. Well need the barrier to entry is
non existent. Everybody's got garage being on their computer. They
can make us long. They can get it on certainly YouTube.
And my thing is, I know you can, but it
doesn't mean you should. Okay, But the question question becomes,

(37:42):
this person who spent fifteen thou dollars. You spoke the
truth to that person. How did they handle it? Oh?
They're bummed out, man, bummed out because they're like, well,
I wish I would have known you, you know, a
year ago. They's just like, but I said, listen, you
have to be smart, and that's why. And actually it's
those kind of conversations what started me to start going

(38:03):
on these panels. And and I mean I've been all
over the place trying to talk to kids and I
don't listen. I don't think I know jack Ship. All
I know is my truth and what works for me
and my experience. And I know that I don't operate
from me. I operate from I'm in this business that
I love, I respected so much. I love making music.

(38:26):
It is just it's who I am. I will always
be this person no matter what. And because this is
my world, my job, I owe it to myself and
the people that are in it to invest emotionally in
it as well. So I'm trying to protect this to

(38:47):
me very I mean talk about you know, what is
a crisis going on. There is a crisis, you know,
when music is being treated like the most. It's the most.
I mean it's the biggest thing out there, but it's
treated like ship. You know, from songwriters to performers, to

(39:07):
credits to all that. It's like it's everywhere, but it's
like the songwriter or whatever. It's like literally on the
it's like might as well be a piece of dog poop.
You know that people are just stepping believe songwriter royalties
should go up. They got screwed when they went to
these digital things, specially streaming. But do you feel like

(39:31):
you're putting your finger in the dyke? I mean, because
I was doing did you didn't say, am I putting
my finger in the dyke? I was. I was in
the Netherlands with a little boy that you're looking at
it that way? What I mean by do you know
that calling as dyke is also another word for a lesbian.

(39:53):
Of course I know that, but it wasn't in my brain.
I was like to say that, Bob, you said put
your finger in the dike? Right? Isn't that what they say,
wasn't there you went to school? Wasn't a little boy?
And the story we had his finger in the dike
and he took the finger. And then as I know
what the story you're saying, it's just funny. I've been

(40:16):
doing that. I've been doing this a long time. And
I used to tell people the truth. Okay, I refused
to blow smoke up their ass. I had a lot
of bad experiences because these people become vindictive. Okay, let
me go one step further. Last fall, I went on
tour with Jason flam Is that a lot of hits

(40:40):
And we went to USC they have like a recording
program and he's blowing smoke up the ass. Oh, you
can make it. You can do that. And I'm like
the only persdae the You have to need to be
in this business. You know, staying in is the hardest part.
This is the business side. But I want to know,
if I look at some big bands touring today, if
you look at cold Play, if you look of the

(41:00):
Dave Matthews band, they broke in the era when there
was still v H one airplay. Okay, it's very different today.
So my question to you is, yes, since it's all
blue blew apart, and certainly within nine years, let's call
it two thousand and ten. Is anybody out there that
started at that time that you think is a rock star? Yeah,

(41:23):
someone who wasn't built on MTV VH one. Brandy Carlyle,
I agree with you there, But she's been doing it
a long time. Brandy Carlisle. I think she's amazing to me.
Like I just recently, you know, UM met her, you know,
during the whole Grammy time and I was like, oh

(41:43):
my god, I can't believe I haven't met you before.
What an incredibly talented person. Well, the other thing she
emails me and she, you know, it's totally down to earth,
talks about fishing in this there there isn't that scrim
between her when you see her and on. I mean,
that's what I'm talking about. Like, you know, when when
going back to what a rock star is, rock star

(42:05):
is just it's just there's a confidence, there's just a thing.
There's an insecurity, there's a very transparent insecurity. Um and
then there's just a you know, a person that can
be in tennis shoes, sitting on a boat fishing like
Brandy Carlile and be very down to earth and humble.
But again, you just know there's something different about her.

(42:28):
There's just something different about Brandy. Jumping off on your point.
This is one of my theories going back to an
earlier thing talking about the male musicians of the sixties
and seventies, a lot of them were very shy. They
did it to meet girls, and once they became famous,
met girls and made all this money, and it didn't

(42:48):
solve their problems. I think that's why they can't write
the hit it anymore, because it was like that curate
in front will get there and I'll be happy. Well,
I think too. A lot of people ask me about,
you know, do you do a song when you get
writer's blocked? And I said, I don't get writer's blocked,
And they're like, why I go Because writer block comes
from someone who's thinking. I'm not I'm never thinking when

(43:10):
I'm writing. I mean, I just I'm right now, Thank
you the universe. Something's going on in my life right
now where everybody you know, I I said about you know,
there's been like a seven year span or maybe five
or something like that, but um, everybody wanted really cut
and paste top winy kind of music and it's just

(43:33):
not my thing, Bob. I don't do that, you know.
And so my wife was like, well, and I was
kind of showing telling her my frustration, and she's like, well,
what are you gonna do. I'm like, well, I'm a songwriter.
People are gonna want songs again, and when they do,
I'll be here and my phone will start ringing. And
lately my phone has been ringing. You know, that's a

(43:54):
great sign for me, because I don't ever follow the trend.
I don't even know what a fucking trend is. I
wouldn't know how to be hit if you showed it
to me and taught me and spent millions of dollars
helping me get there. I don't know what that is.
But I do know how to write a song, and
I know how to connect to people, and um, you know,

(44:16):
so to me, you can tell them I can go,
I can leave you, go into that room, go into
that room, and go into that room, and go into
that room with seven different people, and I can walk
out of every room and I can walk out with
a song. How do you feel about collaboration. I love collaborations.
I I think that you know, for me, um. The

(44:37):
collaboration is a very interesting one because there's different different
levels of what collaboration is. So one would be the
more you know, normal one where you and I get together,
we want to write a song, and we sit here,
you have your guitar, got mine, and we just bounce
ideas off of we write a song. Great. The other

(44:59):
collaborate ration is you're over there on your computer typing
away on doing I don't know what, you know, or instagramming, twittering,
and I'm out there coming up with the song, and
you know, I come in and like, okay, here what
you got, you know, and we talk. But to me,
I still feel like that's a collaboration because no matter

(45:22):
what whatever I did out there, I never would have
done if it wasn't for the energy, you know, of
the person sitting there. You know, like I really feed
off the energy of somebody. And then there's the collaborations
which I don't get involved in, and that's the one
where everybody and your mother is inside a room trying
to write a song that really, you know, didn't really

(45:44):
take seven people to write. Those those collaborations confuse me.
I don't understand how bad song it takes seven people
to write a bad song. How about writing yourself? I
love writing by myself. It's my best work. And I
think what happen for me is like I went off
on a tangent of wanting to write with a bunch
of people, and although I love the songs, that's not

(46:06):
the point. The thing is, there's something different about when
you're just by yourself and having your own thought because
I'm very different in my my My perspective is completely
different than any of these kids, you know, And I
don't chase anything. So what happens in some collaborations, I

(46:28):
find myself having to help someone with a vision that
may not be that original, and they want to chase
something that might be already out there in the world,
and my job is to help take them, you know,
away from that and distract them and bring them back
into why don't we just be you? You know? And

(46:51):
sometimes what happens with that there's a friction because I
just want to do something original and cool and left
field and are very fix fixated on tempo subject matter
and you know, a melodic structure that doesn't make any sense.
But we talk about earlier inspiration and being driven to

(47:13):
top something can you do that because I have a
friend who's a publisher, big guy in Kenna and Michael McCarty,
and I argue with them all the time. He thinks
the best songs are done in collaboration, and I don't
like to collaborate at all. I don't think that that
is true. I do believe that when you have the
energy with somebody like um, Alicia more Pink, I collaborated

(47:36):
really well with her, like we got along great and
we just instantly did. Alicia Keys and I are great together,
you know. But my best songs and my biggest songs
were the ones I wrote by myself. Okay, the next
question is, obviously you're very experienced. You're never gonna write
something terrible, But do you know when you're writing something exceptional?

(47:57):
I feel like I just wrote an exceptional song the
other day, and um, I and then what happens with
that is like I cannot be distracted with disappointment if
somebody doesn't feel that way, because I could say I

(48:19):
have like probably three albums of songs that didn't make
it on someone's album, and I'm like, going, are you
fucking high? You didn't put this? You put that piece
of sh it on your fucking record and you didn't
put this. You know. I can go that way, but
I don't. But it's more like, okay, you know, Um,
I have like songs that one day I may release

(48:40):
and go the songs that never made it, you know,
and do that kind of album and because they're so good.
But I think they're so good, I just know. I mean,
I'm writing every day. I'm not going to write a five,
but I know when I'm writing an eleven, and you
can't do it every day. And the funny thing is,
if all of a sudden you really actually doing something great,

(49:01):
usually you lose it. Yeah, it's like something that comes
out of the sky. And the greatness, too, comes from
when you're not chasing. Lately, I've been really in this
mode of like, I'm I'm tired. I'm super tired. I
run a business. I have, I'm my mom. You know,
I'm writing, I have my studio, I have, I manage

(49:22):
artists and me and my partner Carrie Brown, Um, you
know we want run this company. We are here and um,
we're tired. We haven't slept in two and a half years,
and I feel like I haven't slept in fifteen. But
the thing is, when I get tired, I don't know
what happens, but I'm like, you know, magic, like you know,

(49:44):
in the middle of the night to three in the morning,
I'll just pop up. And last night, um, I was
asked to write a song for Bocelli, and I was like, well,
I don't want to write a normal song him, you
know whatever. So I just popped out a bed, you know,
and I just got something, a sensation, and you know,

(50:05):
and mind you, I wasn't in bed, I was just
sitting there and I just it's like two o'clock in
the morning. I grabbed a guitar, went in the art
room and sat there and I came up with this
song that kind of sounded like maybe Roy Orbison would
sing it. And I was like, awesome, that is great.
That would have never came to me with the same mind.
You know what I mean, I totally agree. It's like
in the shower you get good inspiration. It's like when

(50:26):
you really have to do something, then you go to
lunch whatever, all of a sudden, at one point, all
of a sudden inspired you. So you when you when
you are inspired, the song is written pretty quickly. Oh yeah,
super super quick. And I've been really um in this
computer right behind me. I have like close to a
thousand songs that are not finished that I because the
way I write, I just sit at the piano or

(50:49):
guitar and I'll just I could do it now, if
I had a guitar, I could just start writing a
song and it'll just you'll you'll think I've written this. Alright,
I'm playing you a song that I wrote, and really
it's just something that I'm just making up right now
on the spot. And then I'll get like distracted and
then like okay, um, let's make a mix of that
and put it in there. And so a lot of

(51:09):
them their full formed songs, but I have to go
back and fix lyrics, you know. So I'm just constantly, constantly,
They're just constantly coming I I don't I It's like
it flows, you know, It's always coming out, and it
gets overwhelming because I get so far behind. So I
have to tell myself, you gotta write it right now,

(51:31):
just write it right now. And so now I'm on
that mode right now where if it comes, I'm just
writing it right now because I I don't want to.
I mean, I've been going through those songs. I'm just going, Oh,
how am I going to get back to that emotion?
You know, because you know, you know, it's like I
have a I have great starting point, but it's like
where was I at emotionally? Read re read everything twice

(51:55):
before I send it, and I used to wait a
day or day or two to reread it, and I
always funked it up because my head wasn't in the
same place when I wrote it. Let's go back to
the beginning. You're originally from Massachusetts. I was born in Springfield, Massages.

(52:16):
Certainly in Springfield, the home of Friendly ice Cream. Yeah,
I was there one day one year. I was one
years old, and we moved to San Diego. And so
how many kids in your family? There's five. I have
five brothers and one sister. But to my brother's I
wasn't really raised with okay, because different parents or because
a lot of different things. And my mother's from Brazil

(52:38):
and my father's from Portugal, and my mother and father
met in Brazil. My mom left, she had like probably
a four different you know, situations happened. Um, there's four
different fathers, I think with all all seven kids, Um,
it's very mysterious. You know, the kids were the different fathers.

(53:00):
Are they in Brazil? No? No, no, so they So
two of them were left in Brazil and the rest
of us came. Well, my sister, my brother, and two
My sister and two brothers came to America. Two were
left out there, and then me and my brother Jay
were born in America. So I'm the I am the youngest.

(53:23):
I'm the baby of seven. Okay, So how did your
mother meet your father? Um? Well, Bob, that's a very
questionable um thing that we're trying to figure out. But
are you My father is not. He passed away about
ten years ago. My mother has a very questionable um
past that we can't like. It's I'm telling you, it's

(53:44):
skeletons in the closet left and right. I I. We
can't really get a straight answer from that. She's an
unreliable nere. She's a very unreliable So okay, But they
then they met in Brazil. My father was in the army,
and my father designed missiles and radios and computer chips

(54:05):
and did all that kind of stuff. Um, my father
was the guy that manned the radios or whatever in
the submarine and UM. Then he went on to be
UM does a start designing you know, uh, computers and
chips and missiles. And so they met there. My mom
was a model or something to that effect, and they

(54:28):
met in a very suspicious kind of situation. And UM,
but my sister and Solomon, Mark and Marcel were already
with you know, from different fathers, but they were with her,
with her with her, and then my father met my mom.
They got pregnant. My mom got pregnant and had my

(54:49):
brother John. So there are three of us are from
my dad, so me, my brother John that he manages
the studio and works with me all the time, and
my brother Jane myself. So he moved to So yeah, okay,
just to be clear. So they left two behind in Brazil,
two behind that were raised to believe that my mom
was there. Aunt, I understand, do you have have you

(55:14):
met them? You have any contests? Yes? Then they showed up.
One showed up when I was five. He was sixteen,
and my father got him as a president president for
my mom and surprised her with him and UM, and
then one was left in Brazil until I was I

(55:38):
got my first money from foreign on bonds. I paid
for him to come out here, and then I met
him when I was like, are they now living in America? Yes,
now they're Ina. So everybody's in America now, Okay, so
you're you moved to San Diego. How many brothers and
sisters are living under the same roof? Um, my immediate fan,

(56:00):
Emily is my three brothers and my sister, so five
of us and I'm the youngest. And then my brother
Mark showed up, and then he was there for a
little bit, but then left early because he was sixteen already. Okay,
your father worked for the army, but he's very sophisticated work.
I assume he left the army. What did he do
for a little He started working for General Dynamics, and

(56:22):
then he worked for the government, and like we we
had to live in China Lake for a while and
San Diego, as you know, is a very big military town,
and so it was General Dynamics. And um, my father
was interesting about him is he didn't teach us anything
about music, but he was very musically. Um, he was

(56:45):
very musical man. He loved jazz and he loved um
Frank Sinatra and just really fancy. He's playing music in
the house kind of. But he I never really knew
he played piano unless we went out somewhere he'd see
a piano and then he'd start playing jazz. And we

(57:06):
know he never taught us anything. My father he wanted
to be. He wanted to be where I am probably now,
and he didn't have the He didn't feel was worth it.
It was too unreliable, this business, and so he started
doing all this stuff with the government. And here's the
funny thing. My life could have been so much different.

(57:28):
In are all of our lives. But my father he
was very hip on everything about computers going on, Microsoft,
mac all of it. He knew um uh mac and
sorry Macintosh. He knew everything about what was happening they
were building. He was part of a team that we're

(57:48):
building computers in the seventies. I mean, he would show
us these prototypes of the phone where you pick up
the phone and you could see someone inside the TV
and then the other person would be like know down
the street, like that was made. And so my father
had an opportunity to invest in all that and he

(58:10):
did not. And it's like one of those things like
you know, and I love my life, I wouldn't change
it for anything, But I feel bad for him. Like,
my dad could invested five dollars and he would probably
be a billionaire right now. He knew everything. He was
in the company that was turning into you know what

(58:32):
is one of the biggest companies. You know, so, uh,
you're growing up in the house, it sounds like money
was not the number one issue or no, we didn't
have any money. That's the bummer part. Like, you know,
we were on welfare. You know, my father bragged about
money all the time, but he was spending it at
the bar with his buddies. And you know, because he
my dad wanted to be in a brat brat pack,

(58:53):
you know, like this fantasy was he was. He had
a very mafia thing. I think he actually had something
going on, you know, where he was kind of like
one of those guys. And and so when he was
at the bar, like everybody knew my dad, he was
very flamboyant. But we would be home with powdered milk

(59:17):
and eating tuna, you know, a bazillion different ways, and
spam and all this stuff, and it was very very
my mother was very upset all the time, you know,
because it's like what are you doing your kids don't
have clothes? I mean we learned how to steal, you know.
I mean it was like very you know my upbringing
is it's funny now, um, but it was funny then too,

(59:41):
you know, being woken up and to go steal plants,
you know, from the nursery, so we could resell them
to make money, you know, to eat or get clothes.
Like we are very very crafty. Um. So my father
he you know, I got it. I understood what he
was trying to do. He was not a happy man
and the only thing that made him happy was being

(01:00:03):
able to act like he was a hot shot. So okay,
did your parents remain married? No, they got divorced when
I was ten, and I was so excited about it
because all they did was fight, and so they got divorced.
But they always remained like literally a mile away from
each other, very codependent, until the day my father passed away.
Did they ever get remarried or another have a boyfriend

(01:00:25):
or girlfriend? My mom did not my father. Okay, once
you separated, refinances better or worse? Um, well worse because
then we had nothing. Um, and my mom almost got
taken away by the you know, government or because she
was being you know, she had to use a different

(01:00:46):
name to collect more welfare. So she was getting welfare
from two different names, and they got on to her
and I remember these you know men coming to our
house and basically wanting to rest my mom right there
and um for fraud in So she got out of it,
and UM figured I don't know, actually I still don't

(01:01:07):
know what happened, to be honest, um, but I remember
her returning and she never had to go to jail,
So um there was. My mom was very very She's
a survivor, incredibly powerful, strong woman, and you know, came
to this country not knowing once, not one word of English.
My father never taught it to her, and we weren't

(01:01:29):
allowed to speak Brazilian so Portuguese, so my mother had
to learn how to English, you know, through us kind
of talking and on TV. And then it made it
very difficult because sometimes I'll be talking and um, you know,
people will make fun of like certain words I'll say,
and I'll say the word and I'm like, well that's

(01:01:50):
the way I learned it because my mom, you know,
I was raised well I always say motorcycle, you know,
like I say mortar and you know, my mom, and
refrigerator was really really hard. It was he freezer door,
you know. You know, so it's like, you know, so
it's like and we were raised to believe that toilet
paper was called Holy Papelle and like a lot of

(01:02:13):
like you know, the pun of Punta LEAs, you know,
like all these weird little things. And I was like, no, okay,
that's not it. Alright, no problem. But um anyways, but
very very um, you know, she was very unique, is
very unique, very um what kind of relationship do you
have with her? I have a great I have a
good relationship with her. Now, Like you know, I'm such

(01:02:33):
an aries, like I just want to know everything. I
don't like I don't I don't like not knowing the
answers to certain things. And there's so many unanswered questions
and in our childhood and and and so I probably
developed a bad relationship with her because she just wouldn't

(01:02:54):
give me the information and I can't stand it, you know.
And so then I just let it go. And I'm like,
you know what, you you you figure out your life, mom,
you know, I'm gonna I'm good. Okay. So with lack
of money, and that many kids. To what degree were
you on your own as opposed to you know, parents

(01:03:14):
watching over you or well none of us graduated school.
You know, I was out on eighth grade. I think
I ditched out and I couldn't take it anymore because
I just I wasn't developing my brain in that way.
Like it's very hard for me to learn. Um, I
get very mixed up in my head. I have to
do everything myself, um in order to understand what I'm doing.

(01:03:38):
Um So, I had a lot of problems in school
for not being able to uh do homework or answer
questions properly. But for some reason, tests I would always pass,
and I did test based on instinct, you know, I
was just like, Okay, I'm going to answer this, and
I always seem to be really good at that. Um.

(01:03:58):
But um so I left in then. Well, but usually
in America, you have to go to school to your
sixteen Yeah no, no, the truant officer never came looking
for you. If your parents don't complain back then, we
never Okay, so you drop out of school primarily because
it doesn't align with what are you gonna do for money? Well,

(01:04:19):
just go get a job like age fourteen, got a
lot of jobs, Like what kind of jobs you do?
I did boat work and I used to sit on
a dock and you clean boats. Do you have any
regrets that you didn't go to school? Not at all. No,
I don't. And how about your children? Do you think
they should go to school? Of course, you know, I

(01:04:40):
don't mean, but I wasn't. I said, my children have
a completely different life, you know. Um, I was very
I didn't have things, you know, so you when you
are not living. I mean, it's very very different, you
know back then. And um, I mean life was very
very different back then. You know, the way you're brought up,

(01:05:00):
the way you know, punishment, parenting, all of it was.
I mean, und today's an abused child. Oh yeah, my
mom would be in prison, you know. And um, so
you know you have to I grew up very fast.
I look at my son, he's four years old. One
more year, he's gonna be five years old. And what

(01:05:22):
I was down the street hanging out all day long
at five years old. I would never ever let my
son go down the street and hang out and to
show come back, you know, like it would just never happen.
If I laugh about it. Now I'm just like going,
Holy Cow, you know, and um, but yes, of course

(01:05:45):
they should go to school because it's like it is
important and for many things I I try. I kept
trying to go back to school just to meet friends
because I was lonely. I mean, I didn't have any friends.
So I would go back to school and I would
you know, just hang out and then they would let
me back in, you know, of course they're gonna let
me back in there. And then the president, I mean,

(01:06:07):
the what's his name that the principles I don't even
know principle would come in asked me to come in.
He's like, why are you here? And I'm like to
meet people and he's like, you know, school is not
for to sit here and meet people and you're wasting
our time. And I'm like, but I'm not even in
the classes, so how am I wasting anybody's time? You know?

(01:06:27):
But I couldn't just look then I was considered loitering,
you know, at school on campus. So anyway, so it
was fun, But honestly, I knew at a very very
early age this kind of stuff is not going to
be useful for me. I don't I don't need to
bother myself. Okay, so when you start paying music, so
then you know, I've always played music, so my whole life,

(01:06:50):
I've always dabbled in it in some way. No, never
I we can afford that. I remember wanting to have
piano lessons. It was very attracted to piano, and we
we just couldn't, you know, because you have to get
a piano and just that just wouldn't happened. Then I
wanted to play violin, very expensive instrument, and um, my
mom thought it was masculine. I think she was just

(01:07:12):
trying to get me out of not wanting anything that
has going to cost money. So you know, I just
kind of, um we my mom bought me a little
baby guitar from Tijuana, UM, for Christmas, and I just
started playing that. My brother John is extremely gifted in
that area, and he got a guitar and he joined

(01:07:32):
a band and he was awesome. He had the hair,
the chicks, all of it. And I'm like, I'm gonna
be like my brother. And so I just started, you know,
learning by ear and um. Then all of a sudden,
I just was writing songs at like fifteen sixteen, and um,
but I didn't think that was my thing because it
was so easy. Of course, that's not what you do.

(01:07:54):
It's just this is part of me, like brushing my
teeth whatever. Um, it wasn't until I'm to San Francisco
did I go, oh, I'm gonna be a rock star.
How old were you when you moved to San Francisco
with all these other family You're very successful, both in

(01:08:15):
terms of celebrity and finance whatever. Anybody else in the
family successful? And to what degree is to people in
your family hit you up for money? Um, I take
care of my mom. I always have. She doesn't hit
me up. It's it is my joy to take care
of my mother. Um, I have a you know, a

(01:08:38):
couple siblings in there that may take advantage of the situation,
but I throw boundaries down. Now. My brother John is
way more successful than I am because he is so
he has such a I mean, I have a now
that I have my family, But he I just watched him.
He has a whole life, you know, he does all

(01:09:00):
these things. I mean, I just kind of his life
seems so simple, and I find it to be so
successful because I don't even know what success is anymore.
I don't I don't understand when all this is going
to be enough? When when can I take my hat
off and just relax and take a break. So you've

(01:09:22):
had a lot of success, especially compared to people outside
the business, never mind inside the business. Are you saying
it doesn't fill a hole in you? It is incredibly
humbling for me, always my every day I wake up,
I'm very humbled. Um, I'm very humble. I'm very um.

(01:09:46):
I have a lot of gratitude and I um, I
just don't think I'm at the level that I would
like to be at. And I guess some people would
say I'm successful you talk about business or emotionally just

(01:10:06):
with my my my career. Um, so let's just stay there.
What is the dream? Because we're blue sky and it Well,
that's the problem that every time I reached the dream,
a new dreams shows up. So would have been some
of the past dreams? Oh to being a successful rock
and roll band and you know, sell millions of records

(01:10:27):
and tour and travel around the world. Okay, that was
that was very successful. You were all over MTV. How
hard was it to leave for non blondes? Oh, it
wasn't easy at all. I mean I mean suscratch that
sorry backwards flip it. It was very easy and you
felt that you would just go on to more success. No, no,

(01:10:48):
I didn't think that. I felt that I needed to
leave the band because it was a detour I wasn't
supposed to. That was not my destiny. I felt my
my whole thing is. I felt that I was going
to be a rock star, no Matt with I was
gonna be famous with or without for an on Blondes.
Sometimes I feel like, oh, if I didn't hop on

(01:11:11):
that boat, I wonder what would have happened. But I
don't live and wondering what ifs. So for me, leaving
the band was extremely important because I needed to get
back on my path. My path was never to share
the stage with three other people. When I won my award,
I was bringing my mom on and when everybody else

(01:11:31):
started saying, Oh, I'm gonna bring my mom onto, it
was like, wait, what, No, that's my dream. I A'm
bringing my mom on stage. You know, you guys, my
dream doesn't have you guys on stage with your mom's too,
you know, so literally, you know, I came back from
somewhere and I said I want to play Carnegie Hall.
I wanna. I want to look out on the audience

(01:11:54):
and see dresses and and tuxedos, and I want this
incredible orchestra up behind me and this incredible band, and
I just want to be, you know, seeing in Carnegie Hall,
to just in this incredible people who are listening to
what I'm saying. Literally two weeks later, Roger Dalstree calls

(01:12:14):
me up and asked me to participate in this fiftieth
Birthday at Carnegie Hall with Michael Caman conducting. You know
this anything about Michael After doing Mr Holland's Opus film,
he started a foundation to give instruments to underprivileged people.
And my girlfriend runs that interesting how it comes to okay,

(01:12:35):
but okay. One dream was to be a rock star.
One dream was to be on Carnegie Hole. Well its
been some of the recent dreams. Um. Well, right now
I'm really working hard to My dream is that when
my son, which is, like I said, four years old,
that is showing interest in music right now, he's he's
writing songs like him and I lay in bed and

(01:12:57):
we make up songs and he's singing all day long.
You know, I can cry right now thinking about it.
Like he I know, he's desk. I mean, I didn't
have this child. My wife is not musical at all,
and she had him. There's not a musical bone in
that woman's body, you know. But this this kid is

(01:13:19):
my child, you know, and he My dream is that
when he decides to be in this business, that there
is a business for him to come to. There's a
uh talking about the business the studio or music in general,
music in general, that there is a lucrative business for
him to or or you know, to have a career

(01:13:42):
or two or an audience that's gonna listen. That that
that you know, um uh, holograms aren't taking over the
you know, who fucking knows? Man, who fucking knows that
fucking fifteen years from now, instead of wasting our time
with artists, Oh there's such trouble and it costs so

(01:14:02):
much money. I'm just going to buy your likeness and
I'm just going to you know, pod you down onto
a fucking stage. And that's what's gonna be. The new
normal is seeing anybody that you want, anywhere you want,
because there what is that fucking your three D hologram
of whatever artists that you want? That's going to be

(01:14:25):
the new thing. I'm I actually feel it's actually in
the process of being made right now. It has to
be the only the only interesting thing is Generation Z
and the Millennials are really into experiences, and I find
what resonates most is authentic stuff. People with credibility playing
real instruments on the same time, and I totally understand E.

(01:14:47):
D C. Meaning the Electric Daisy Carnival. With that, there's
a lot of experimentation, but in between, there's a lot
of crap, you know. There again, I'm I love all music,
Don't get me wrong. I love it all, you know,
all of it. And I appreciate anybody who can write
a song and and that a good song, a decent song. Um.

(01:15:11):
But my dream is to be able to do the
groundwork right now. I I gotta I gotta start working
right now. You know, there's a lot of a lot
of miles to cover to make sure you know that
there is uh, you know, a business sort of say
for him to jump on stage and go and do this.
And mind you, I believe an artist as an artist

(01:15:32):
and you can perform in your garage or anywhere you want.
Money should not be the driving force of any artists.
And that's what I teach my kids, and that's what
I always tell them. Don't go into this business if
you think you're gonna go make millions of dollars, because then,
right now then your intention is wrong. You're going in
with the wrong intention. Go into it because your heart

(01:15:56):
can't be anywhere else. Go into this because your heart,
it would break if you weren't singing or performing or
playing music or writing or playing piano for somebody. If
your heart is breaking because you're not there, then that
is the right time. That's when you're you mentioned earlier.
You know you're working very hard. You're burning the candle

(01:16:17):
on both ends. You'd like to take off your hat
and relax. The You're always wearing a hat. What's up
with that? Well, Bob, I've always loved hats. I hate
my hair. I do have hair, but I can't stand it.
I've had dreads, I've had mohawks, I've had mullets, I've

(01:16:39):
had them all, and hats just make me feel good.
And I do also think I'm extremely sensitive, so I
think I psychically feel like my hat covers my my
spiritual like you know, vessel or channel or whatever you
want to call it um, And so it's kind of

(01:17:01):
a protection. And I take off my hat when I
go home, and my son always knows. Is like, if
I take off my hat, he knows I'm home. But
if I leave my hat on, he knows I'm going somewhere. Okay,
So essentially, when you leave the house, there's never a
time you leave without the hat. What if you go
on vacation with your kids, I have my head on.

(01:17:23):
I don't do First of all, Bob, I don't do vacation.
I haven't had a vacation in in years. You know,
you feel like you're missing something, but when you come back,
you have an incredible burst of inspiration. Yeah no, I
know that, and um, but I honestly, I love my family.
I love being home, and I love I love what

(01:17:43):
I do. I like I don't feel like i'm working.
I feel like I'm one of those people that are, like,
you know, at Disneyland fucking seven. And it's like I'm
waiting to get kicked out. And until I'm kicked out,
I'm going to stay in here and take as much
advantage of all these rides as I possibly can. And
I'm gonna know all of them inside it out. And
I feel like a measure of success for me is

(01:18:07):
when I, you know, die. Basically, you have hit blonde,
you leave for blondes, and at some point you transition
to not being a performer and being a songwriter. Tell
me about that. That was super easy because I didn't
like performing. I don't I don't, Bob, I don't like

(01:18:28):
being told what to do. Let's just be clear with
that as an artist. As an artist, I was being
told what to do, where to go, and I was
I was fucking cattled and proud all the time. And
that did not sit well with me. And when I perform,
I wanted to be a special you know time where

(01:18:49):
I'm feeling it and then you know, you there's those
times you just have to perform because you're obligated to
do that and you made the commitment. I get it.
I'm doing that fine. And it just didn't I don't know.
My ego didn't need it. My ego felt like, you
know what, I'm good? Do you miss it? Now? Okay?
So how do you uh become a writer with other

(01:19:13):
or four other people? I just started writing songs and
then I played a song to Pink and then all
of a sudden, Bam, I'm the biggest songwriter, you know,
the person to call because I had a very successful
you know she you know, the thing is is like
Alicia had, you know, her biggest was like I think
she sold maybe one point eight million records as the

(01:19:35):
R and b bling bling ching ching, and when I
showed up, I changed everything about you know, and she
sold I think twelve million records right off the bat.
So that's pretty successful. And I think that of course
people are gonna call me. And then Christina I had
a big hit with her, and then Gwen and then
Alicia Keys and you know, everything's just kind of started.

(01:19:56):
But my biggest hits were those you know, the phone
ring as much or the email coming in as much
as it has at other previous times when you've had hits.
Now yeah, so people are looking for you. So how
do you decide what to work on? Well, I'm very
particular right now. I'm so focused on my artists. In
our label. We have Natasha Benningfield. I just wrote a

(01:20:19):
really great and produced a really great record with her.
We we jelled so well in the studio and I
mean it's a great album. So we're very excited about that.
She signed who we are here? And um, we have
an artist named Jesse Joe Stark and she's a new
artist but very very cool, really great vibe, and all

(01:20:40):
of our artists don't need Linda, and that's what we
look for. I have an artist that I found her
when she was twelve. Her name is will m I.
She's fifteen now. She just played Ellen, just played the
Today Show. I didn't write a thing. I just helped her,
so me and my partner Kerry, and then we have
about eleven people that work with us. So you're not

(01:21:02):
aligned with any of the majors. No, only in Europe.
We had to And now you're talking about making albums
in today's internet. We own a record pressing plant, by
the way, so we print vinyl. Okay, without getting into vinyl.
How do you feel about albums relative to singles? I
could really give a ship about a single. I don't

(01:21:24):
even understand what a single means nowadays anyways, it's like
every label wants to put out a single every other week,
it seems, or every week. Um, nobody is again preserving
the art of you know, an album and the reason
why everybody's running in fear right now is because nobody's

(01:21:45):
making albums. They don't understand how to those those I
think people forget that the single is the main character. Okay,
let's put it in a movie mode, right, the single
is the main care that's your big actor. That's your
Hollywood actor right there. And then the co actor, what

(01:22:07):
do you call him? Is you know your other big star?
So that's your second single, is right? But then in
order to make a great movie you have to have
a great cast. Well, I'll get a great support the album.
And without that cast and that story, well, I would

(01:22:28):
say with streaming, it's about the body of work. If
someone listens to a song they like, they'll go deeper
and deeper. Yes, so I'm not sure I understand. Once
you get in the groove, you're making an album. But
the problem is we live in an attention based economy,
and if you put out an album and you don't
do something for a year or two, then you don't

(01:22:50):
have the same top of mine. That's not true. That's
not true. That's what we're told, but that's not true.
I mean, let's just take Adell for instance, A l
disappeared for three years. I think it took for her
to from from nineteen to one. But I would I
mean that was a big and then that album broke

(01:23:14):
all major records out there. I would agree with your point,
but I would shift it to another point. There's only
one Adele. Why is that? She is a good singer.
Most of the songs have melody. No one else is
doing that exactly. No one else, how come is doing it?
So how come no one else follows? Because Adele is

(01:23:35):
a rare situation because she doesn't care. She doesn't care
for label saying I need an album out now, she says,
fuck you. I'll give you an album when I'm ready. Now.
Most people are afraid. They're operating from fear. So when
so and so tells their artists, I need an album

(01:23:57):
next week through she okay, I don't want to get
dropped out of blah blah blah blah. They run operate everything.
Everything is operated and fucking fear. Right now, it's a
fear based business. That's why it's it's it's in the
condition that it's in. Now. You've got this new breed
of kids that are coming in that are going back
that like bands like Greta Van Fleet because they love Zeppelin,

(01:24:21):
you know. Now, I don't know Greta Van Fleet, I
know Zeppelin, but I'm pretty impressed that those guys came
into the picture during a time when rock and roll
was very, very dead and no guitars, and they're like
blew up and you know, and so what they did
is reintroduced guitars, and so now there's guitars coming back.

(01:24:46):
Albums are gonna come back, Bob. I'm telling you, they're
coming back. Artists, rock stars are coming. Vinyl is here
and very alive, and there's a lot of things going
on there that a lot of people are are don't
know about with vinyl. You know, labels are looking at
vinyl right now as the ticket out of giving their

(01:25:08):
artists something an edge. You know, it's like a fucking edge.
It's a fucking album, dick head. You know that's what
an album is. The album they're calling an album now
the okay, would you consider yourself to be an optimistic
person or a pessimistic person? I am fucking both, man,
I'm like the most I am. I am both because

(01:25:31):
I love music and I have to believe that it's
it's gonna be okay. And mind you, this is again,
it's just my opinion. I mean, people could be listening
right now, going what's she talking about? Sucking music is
thriving in the best and there's so many great bands,
and you're probably right, But in my world, I'm seeing
it different. You and I are not looking at this

(01:25:52):
room the same at all. There's no there's it's impossible
for you and I to see this room exactly in
the same perspective, same point of you. We are looking
and walking in life on a daily basis, seeing the
exact same things very different. This is my perspective. My
perspective is I see a very we're walking a very

(01:26:14):
fine line right now of where we can go and
if we don't raise the bar, and if we don't
start telling these kids to raise the bar, because I'm
going to be that person. I'm gonna be the person
that's telling people to raise the bar, that we need
to be better. And you can laugh at me, or
you can tell me that the bar is being raised,
and that's great. You be that person to tell everybody

(01:26:34):
everything's okay. But I'm gonna be telling everybody everything will
be okay if we start raising the bar, if we
start the Beatles are the Beatles, because no one's ever
beaten the Beatles. We've only gone down and down and
down and down and down. You know, Oasis is the
first band I ever saw that try to actually say
they were better than the Beatles, and I fucking love

(01:26:56):
them for that. I love those guys for that. What
fucking alls? Okay, I think we've come to the end
of the feeling we've known. We could literally go on forever.
Thanks so much for talking to me until next time.
That's Linda Perry on the Bob Left Sets podcast. Thank you.