June 30, 2022 • 59 mins
In Part 4 of Abortion: The Body Politic, Katie examines how abortion is explored and reflected in popular culture and Hollywood. Because whether we realize it or not, the movies we have loved and the TV shows we watch represent the collective imagination of our culture at particular moments in time. And for much of the past 50 years, that collective imagination was riddled with problematic abortion tropes that perpetuates stereotypes about the procedure and the people who seek it out. But the good news is that in the past decade, more showrunners and filmmakers — and even studios — telling more abortion stories and even taking some risks. Katie takes listeners to the front row of a new comedy show about abortion, aptly named, “Oh God A Show About Abortion,” from comedian Alison Leiby. Filmmakers Gillian Robespierre (“Obvious Child,” 2014), Rachel Lee Goldenberg (“Unpregnant,” 2020), and Dawn Porter (“Trapped,” 2016) share the origin stories of their narrative-busting movies and what more Hollywood and creatives need to do in the long fight toward reproductive rights.
More information on this episode’s guests and resources:
- Abortion Onscreen study
- Abortion Onscreen Database
- Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health
- We Testify
TV Shows, movies and more:
- Stream Obvious Child on Prime and Hulu
- Stream Unpregnant on HBO Max
- Oh God, A Show About Abortion, by Alison Leiby
- Unpregnant, by Jenni Hendriks and Ted Caplan
- Stream Trapped on Prime
- Watch The Racial Politics of Abortion on YouTube
- Planned Parenthood’s Secret Weapon (Washington Post)
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm Katie Curic, and this is abortion the Body Politic
Part four at the Supreme Court today an historic upheaval.
Brow is dead. The Conservative Court world six to three
Friday to uphold a Republican backed Mississippi law that bands
abortion after fifteen weeks of pregnancy, and five of those
(00:22):
justices went even further, voting to overturn rovers Wait itself,
and the question of abortion has been returned to the
states After the Supreme Court took away the federal rights
an abortion. On June, abortion rights supporters flooded city streets
from Seattle to Boston and right here in New York
(00:44):
City about it. Already, a delusive litigation is underway. Thirteen
states have abortion bands in place, designed to be triggered
and take effect immediately after row Fell as if this recording.
At least six states, including Missouri, have begun to enforce
(01:04):
their trigger bands to prohibit abortion entirely, but the anti
abortion wins are not all immediate. A judge has granted
a restraining order blocking Utah's abortion band from being enforced.
At least two states have temporarily blocked enforcement of their
trigger law bands on abortion. In the first three parts
(01:28):
of this series, we traced how we got to this
point because the Supreme Court decision didn't happen in a vacuum,
and in fact, the dismantling of Row is still one
moment in the long arc of reproductive rights in this country.
There's still a way to go, and part of that
journey is understanding how we tell stories about abortion in
(01:50):
the first place. Today we're examining how abortion has been
explored and reflected in popular culture and Hollywood, whether we
realize it or not. Movies we have loved and the
TV shows we watch represent the collective imagination of our
culture at any particular moment in time. Filmmaker Gillian Ropes
(02:10):
Pierre directed the ten brom com Obvious Child, which is
still held up eight years later as a movie that
got abortion right. We happened to talk to Gillian on
the day Roe v. Wade was overturned before we talk
about the role of storytelling and conveying messages about abortion. Gillian,
(02:34):
what was your reaction when you heard the news? Yeah, Um,
I'm an easy cry, so I feel like I'm getting
just you know, we knew it was coming. It wasn't
that a total surprise. Um, But I was sitting in
room with my writing partner this morning, and she's a woman,
and uh, we stopped. We just looked at each other
(02:57):
and started crying. UM, and we couldn't, you know, don't
finish our work. But I'm glad we had each other. Um.
And it's devasity, it's good it. It feels like after
the tears came just like anger and pain. Um. But
also I'm fueled by I'll show you that's sort of
(03:20):
why I even made this movie in the first place.
So I do feel like after the tears and and
I will work with the anger to to continue to
figure out how to protest and how to get out
of this mook. I'm trust what you think Hollywood's responsibility
is and what it can do to to change hearts
(03:44):
and minds and inform people about the importance of reproductive rights. Yeah,
you know, I think just to bring it back to
sort of the story of how I made Obvious Child
and how I got it made. I made it outside
of the studio system. I didn't ask for that permission.
(04:05):
But um, the reason why we made it is because
it almost felt like a dare. All these films that
that came out in the mid two thousands about um,
young women having unplanned pregnancies, and they never even mentioned
the word abortion. Um and and it was a nerving
(04:27):
to to watch those films, and it made it a
silent enemy. And I just my whole life, I've kept
on waiting for a film where um they made that
they gave abortion a happy ending. You know, I love
Dirty Dancing and I love Fast Times at Ridgemont High,
and those are movies that I watched as a child,
(04:48):
and Dirty Dancing, Uh, kind of was a scary depiction.
You know, it was true to the time. But I'm
a little kid in the eighties and I was terrified.
Uh there was she almost died um in Fast Times,
it was you know, she Jennifer Jason Lee's character had
no reservations about making that choice, which I thought was cool.
(05:11):
But my young brain only took away from that movie
that losing your virginity hurts, and guys suck and it's
cool to have an older brother. Um. But when I
had my abortion, I couldn't help but think of all
of these movies, these awful depictions, and yeah, I was scared,
And did I think I was Did it cross my
(05:33):
mind that I could die. Yeah, but that was not
you know, the reality is I had a very nice abortion.
I wasn't met with anti choice protesters or mean doctors
or unsupportive parents are partner. It was not traumatizing, and
I was relief. Um And and all of those movies, uh,
(06:00):
you know, kind of scared me. What about Knocked Up
in Juno for example? Where did you see the narrative
of those movies not kind of fulfilling your view of abortion? Right? Well,
I'm also a huge fan of rom coms. I love them,
(06:23):
and I feel like those movies were the ones that
were daring me to try to make a rom colm
with an abortion that had an happy ending, Like I
dare you, idiot, try it. You're going to fail, because
because no one wants to see that movie. And so
that's sort of what spurred Obvious Child was to try
to make a film where the abortion is the catalyst
(06:45):
for abudding romance and and to show that in a
movie with an abortion can be both funny and poignant
and entertaining. Um and it could you know, show positive Yeah,
no stigma or shame is involved this. You know, Donna,
our main character had an abortion without feeling guilty or traumatized,
(07:08):
and that was similar to my experience. Can you tell
me a little briefly for people who haven't seen it,
who probably will head to to YouTube to see it now,
But can you tell me a little more about the plot,
just so we can give people an idea. Yes, so, Um,
it's about a young woman in her twenties named Donna
(07:30):
Stern played by the amazing Jenny Slate and Donna Stern
is a born and raised New Yorker who's a stand
up comedian and her boyfriend dumps her and she has
a one night stand with the very handsome and tender
Jake Lacey. Uh. She realizes she had is pregnant and
(07:54):
she decides to have an abortion, and the movie sort
of shows her reeling from the pain of a breakup
and trying to figure out will she or won't she
tell Jake Lacey's character it's never um, will she won't
she have the abortion? Maybe you want to tell him, no, why,
(08:19):
why you don't owe him anything? You don't even know
this guy. Maybe he just deserts to know that like
this happened, that I'm not a psycho and I'm going
to get an abortion. Um. And it's framed in a
you know, romantic comedy inspired by uh, you know, all
of the films from from my childhood that I devoured
and and you know, the girl always gets the guy,
(08:41):
but now she also has her future. Unfortunately, I feel like,
you know, because we we missed, we we were we
couldn't tell everyone's story, and obviously, child we can only
tell one woman's story. And Donna came from privilege, and
you know, had all this support. She lived in New York,
so she had access, and so you know, the hopes
(09:02):
were that other stories could sort of burst from this.
I really thought that there is going to be this
giant change in in movies in the depiction of of
unplanned pregnancy and abortion. And I think there were you know,
there's some great films, um Eliza Hitman, who's a pal
(09:26):
of mine, never rarely sometimes always. I just watched I'm
Pregnant yesterday for the first time, and I thought that
was really great film. You know, there's so many stories
to be told. What now for Hollywood? Do you think
this will create a whole new um interest in films
about reproductive rights? I sure hope. So it feels like
(09:51):
we're too late, but I sure hope. So, because um,
we have to continue to make art and tell us
stories that don't silence our experiences because I think, um,
I think silence is the greatest weapon. But I also
uh don't think Hollywood in the studio system is built
(10:13):
to take risks. I UM, I personally don't think telling
these stories are risky. I think we've seen in a
lot of films that these stories work well. You know,
that can be both entertaining and also important. My name's
page and I was twenty nine when I had my abortion.
(10:36):
My abortion story begins with mating my boyfriend Charlie. In
the summer. We started dating and absolutely fell over hill,
head over heels in love um and practiced very safe sex,
ironic lay and we felt pregnant about two months in.
(11:01):
It was interesting because when I read the pregnancy result,
I felt excitement as my first feeling. I told him
right away and he was excited and so very um
you know, a nice emotion at the start that ended
up really challenging the decision making process. Um. And really
(11:27):
I had very little to go off. I couldn't talk
to my friends about it or my family. I had
never known anyone who had ever gotten an abortion. All
I had to go off was what I had understood
of it from popular culture references, and for me growing up,
that was the movie Dirty Dancing, where it was essentially
(11:47):
a girl living on the streets who gets butchered in
a garage. I'ought you said he was a reality. The
guy had dirty knife and folding cable. I could hear
was screaming in the hallway, or Juno, who she gets
shamed out of it. Your baby probably has a beating heart,
you know, it can feel pain, and you do his fingernails,
(12:13):
finger nails really and one day, you know, we go
pick up groceries. I'd be like, okay, now we can
do it. And then in the next aisle he would
say my job don't pay enough. I don't see how
he can do it. And then the next style I
would say, well, maybe I can go back to Australia,
and then the next stile was so what we can't
(12:33):
give up every It was just so volatile in terms
of decision making, because what I learned from movies is
that if you can do it, you should do it.
I have a personality where if something makes me scared,
I'll try to run really almost lean into it, you know,
whether it's moving overseas or pursuing a career that I
(12:54):
don't think I'm ready for X of imposter syndrome or
whatever else, or running the New York City Marathon. And
what my therapist actually shared, what she said, you know, yes,
but you were your time to prepare or to get
comfortable with the choice. And she said, you didn't turn
away from this because you were scared. You turned away
(13:15):
from this was because it wasn't a choice. Um, it
wasn't your choice. I chose to go the medicine route
because I wanted to avoid a procedure um and you know,
going under, whether it's a general anesthetic or a local anesthetic.
And this to me felt like I could do in
(13:35):
the privacy of my home. It would still have the
same results. Um, it just seems like more appropriate choice
for where I was, at least in the pregnancy. I
think even though I had clear direction, it's still such
an overwhelming moment that I had times where I was like, wait,
did I write that down correctly? Have I taken an
(13:56):
hour to early hour too late? Because you just felt
like You've got a lot of weight on this moment um.
And then taking the tablets. It was like very very
very bad cramps. And it lasts some time, um, and
you are kind of alone. You're alone while it happens,
(14:18):
and when you're going back and forth to the bathroom,
and so it can feel a little bit lonely, but
you kind of get to a point where like, I
just need to get through and I want it done now.
I'm happy with my choice. I'm glad what I decided
to do. And it put a lot of things on
my radar, having children and having a family, potentially marriage
(14:40):
and what that really means to me. And so there's
gifts that have come out of it, and it's made
me really really UM. I can't ignore what's happening in
America and I'm a part of it. And I don't
want anyone to feel some of the bad feelings that
I experienced. And if I can be there for someone,
(15:03):
even strangers, I would want them to message me because
I don't. No one's alone. It's actually shocking how not
alone we are and how many people take this option.
After the break a comedy show about abortion, Hi, how
(15:30):
are you do you take? It's take a tin fabulous.
At the end of April, I went to see a
comedy show. It was at the historic Cherry Lane Theater
in a quaint little pocket of Manhattan's West Village. The
night we went, the show was still in previews, but
that didn't matter. It was a packed house. Hi everyone,
if you're here for Allison, leave me. The line starts
(15:50):
right here. Please have your baggy gready ready and off
stand your ticket. Thank you so much. It was called,
Oh God, a show about abortion. The comedian is all
simple be thank you for being here, Thank you for
coming to what my dad calls my special show. Now.
My parents are super supportive. My mom texted me kill
(16:13):
it tonight. That was like, already did so why there's
a show I had an abortion three years ago. Thank you. Um,
I'm still trying to lose the no baby weights. I'm
gonna challenge. I'm not surprised that I needed an abortion.
I am surprised I needed one when I was old
(16:35):
enough to run for presidents. That after the show, I
headed to the green room so Allison and I could
talk shop. I mean, oh God, how did you decide
to do a show about abortion? I really I it
kind of happened organically. I mean, obviously the experience happened
to me. It was not planned, but as a stand
(16:58):
up on somebody who just like writes about what happens
and what I see in the world and things I
think are funny, and I was like going through that experience,
and I was like, there's funny stuff here that isn't
the normal stand up abortion content. I feel like when
people get up and talk about abortion and stand up,
it's usually theoretical or someone liners. I feel like people
don't tell the whole story because like no one really
(17:19):
wants to sit in it that long, because it makes
people uncomfortable even though it shouldn't. So I wrote a
couple of jokes bombed so hard every time I told them,
like the first like five times, just getting up and
doing a ten or fifteen minutes set and in the
middle like trying to slip in this abortion material, and
like you could just you could feel people men crossing
their arms, just like really closing down. And it's like
(17:41):
it's because I wasn't confident and yet I was still
you know, new jokes are always kind of weaker just
because you're not ready to say them yet, and the
way that you do when they're done also popping them
in the middle of a routine. That's sort of hard thing.
But I eventually got to a point where that wasn't
that hard because I liked the jokes that like, I
(18:01):
had the confidence where people were like, she's bringing this
up and then being like we can, She's going to
guide us through this, like this is not going to
be awful. And so I kind of started getting the
material together and I had like five minutes, and then
I had ten minutes, and then I kept being like, oh,
this and this, and and I all of a sudden
I had like fifteen or twenty minutes that worked, and
I was like, well, if I could do twenty, I
(18:24):
could probably do an hour. I mean that kind of
insane ego logic where I'm like, yeah, I can do anything, right.
I went to Planned Parenthood in Soho in New York City,
the fancy downtown neighborhood, because I'm a fancy bitch um,
and I was nervous that there would be protesters, just
because in TV and film and the news, I've always
seen tons of protesters in front of abortion clinics. I'm like,
(18:44):
I don't like wire hangers in my closet. I don't
want them in front of my healthcare clinics. Okay, but
I went and there were not like all, you know,
there weren't all of the crazy things that you would expect.
There were just like four old Catholic people standing across
the street silently like it just looks like that painting
American Gothic twice, but like less scary because they didn't
(19:05):
even have a pitchfork. Was just thank God. There is
a much more intimidating force outside of the Plan Parenthood
and SOHO in New York that is threatening women who
are seeking abortions, and that is across the street from
Plan Parenthood there is a luxury maternity wear store called
Hatch What who own is that? Mike Pets Like, how
(19:27):
did you determine what else you wanted to talk about?
Because you talk obviously about growing up and it really
becomes kind of a full social commentary on your life
in a way. I guess the most natural way to
tell this story is to like step back and look
at it from the bigger picture of like how do
I feel about sex and abortion? And I started. The
(19:50):
thing that's changed the most since I started writing it
is like, what is this serious thing I'm saying, and
and what is the what is the come? Like? What
am I trying to tell people by telling them about abortion?
And it really because it happened to me when I
was so much older. The motherhood conversation with myself was
so real in a way that at five I probably
(20:12):
wouldn't have thought about that, and it would and and
it it impacts you know what people think your choices
are less like if you're and need an abortion, no,
one's like, and now she'll never be a mother, Like
she's made her choice. No, you have a whole life
of your fertility in front of you. But when you're older,
it kind of is this definitive decision. Women's identity and
(20:35):
motherhood are like so collapsed in our culture that it's
actually everything you do, every decision you make, everything you
do is kind of connected to this idea and this identity.
And that's terrible. But what's hard about managing these fears
about fertility is that, like there is no kitchen timer
on men's fertility, women's fertility is very set. If you're
(20:59):
a woman, you're one with all the eggs you're ever
going to have forever, and if you're pregnant with a daughter.
All the eggs she's ever going to have are already
inside of you, which explains a lot of our love
of big purses, you know, just like dig around. You're like,
all right, phone, Pea's wallet, Kleenex, a Clementine from two
and a half weeks ago, my eggs, her eggs. All right,
(21:19):
let's go out. We're ready. Men create sperm throughout their lives.
Men are creating sperm at the rate that Everline is
creating unflattering pants constantly. Like okay, to put it in context,
Richard gear is seventy, his wife is thirty six. We
(21:39):
don't have time to get into all of the problems
with that relationship. But when they have sex, she is
the one that's worried that she's not going to be
able to be a parent because she's too old. She
is the one who is worried the thirty six year old,
not the seventy year old, which is crazy because in
every other context he's the one you're worried about. Walkie
downstairs Edix words we culturally decided. We don't say anymore.
(22:05):
Why did you decide? I mean, especially now it's so
prescient that this was an important piece of work for
you to do and an important issue for you to tackle. Comedically,
I just feel like abortion gets such like a heavy
hand in pop culture so often, and it is always
(22:26):
treated as this like trauma, and I think it is
for many women who experience it, but it's not for
everyone who experiences it, and it doesn't have to be necessarily.
I think a lot of the trauma is imposed by
by society because of the the morality that is imposed
on women who choose to terminate a pregnancy, yes, and
(22:49):
also the women who have to jump through way more
hoops to do it. I mentioned in the show, But like,
of course I'm an incredibly, incredibly privileged woman in the
circumstance I had, Reese says, I was in New York City, Like,
I did not have to drive hundreds of miles or
spend money I didn't have, Like it really was a
lot easier for me, Yeah, or not more or not
(23:10):
be able to have an abortion, right because you just
didn't have access and you had no choice exactly, and
so like, so much of that trauma is based on
the politics of abortion. But also I think that there's
just a lot of people with a narrative that looks
like mine, and I hadn't seen it reflected in stand up.
Very often when women talk about their bodies on stage,
(23:31):
it's inherently politicized. I've heard so many men tell me
so many things about their bodies into a microphone and
it never once gets a reaction of like, but like
when women do it all the time, it does. And
so I've heard like here and there people talk about
abortion a little in passing, just to be like starting
that conversation, and I was like, I think I could
(23:54):
tell the whole thing. Like I think laying out every
detail makes it seem so much more mundane because you're like, oh,
and then you do this, and then you do this,
and you had to get there like this, and that,
Like it makes it a task or like an errand
um when presented procedure, like removing a skin tag or
(24:15):
getting a colonoscopy, or like any of the things that
like we easily can joke about and depict as not
politicized and not traumas. And so I thought I could
do this. Probably I've said abortion more in the last
two years that I've said cumulatively in my entire life.
And it does get easier and even just talking about
(24:39):
it like this, or about the show with a friend,
like I'm finding that like there's just ease to it,
and like that's all that's my only goal for well,
my goal is like for it to be funny first
and foremost, and number two just be like, can't we
just talk about this more? Can't we all just say
this more? I had the incredible experience of many times
when I first started working out the show in much
(25:00):
smaller spaces where I was like got off stage and
I was like, well, now I'm in the crowd. We're
all just hanging out because there's twelve of us here,
um many women who would come up to me and
just be like I had one too, and just instantly
like feel like from seeing it, like the ability to
share that in a way that I don't know how
often they share that. It doesn't seem like very often usually,
(25:22):
And I'm like, well, if that's what the show does,
then that's like all I could possibly wanted to do
is for people to feel able to tell someone me,
a total stranger, or like someone in their life about
an experience they had and not feel bad about it.
More on abortions, betrayal, and popular culture right after this,
(25:46):
So what kind of an impact can film and TV
have on shifting attitudes when it comes to heated social issues.
You can look to gay rights for one example of
the power of representation. I remember waking up and realizing
we were in bed naked with each other, right because
(26:07):
that happened ago. But what about abortion? For more than
a decade, a team of researchers out of San Francisco
have been trying to find out. My name is Gretchen Sistem.
I'm a sociologist at the University of California, San Francisco
in the Department of eccentric skrean Ecology and Reproductive Science UM,
(26:28):
and I'm the lead investigator for the Abortion on Screen
program that studies how abortion and reproductive decision making our
portrayed in American film and television. We started the program
back in and the idea that time was to to
start looking more at culture change and and and considering
(26:51):
how abortion was part of our pop cultural conversations. One
of the earliest depictions that we found as a silent
film from nineteen sixteen Paul Where Are My Children? UM.
It was made by filmmaker Lois webber Um who was
herself a rarity at the time as as a woman
filmmaker in the nineteen tens. The plot line is a
(27:14):
bit convoluted, but it's it's effectively about a district attorney
who's prosecuting a physician who's been performing abortions and has
a patient die. And in the process of this investigation,
the district attorney discovers that his wife has been kind
of helping people find this provider, and then he also
(27:35):
discovers that his wife has had abortions herself UM, which
has led to her inability to get pregnant. It's not
a sort of revolutionary depiction by any means. It just
was the first one, right. It's very it's very stigmatizing.
It talks about abortions being very dangerous, which it could
often be at the time UM, but it also relied
on UM a lot of racist and eugenicis ideas about
(27:59):
both birth troll and an abortion. The first abortion story
that we saw on television was UM the legal show
The Defenders. The Defenders aired on April two. The episode
(28:20):
is about the trial of an abortion provider, Mr Preston.
In the past eight years, over twenty thousand expected mothers
have come into my office each one of the morning
an abortion twenty thousand. It's like deeply stigmatizing, right. It
sort of presents abortion as as the choice of very
desperate women. Um, the provider is very clear that, like,
(28:44):
he doesn't do abortions for some women, for women who are,
you know, too promiscuous and just don't want to deal
with the consequences of their actions. On what the basis
did you design to operate? More than half of them
were married, Harry fused all of them. Why there was
nothing preventing them from having children? I mean, this defender's
episode is absolutely a product of its time. It makes
(29:07):
a strong case for legality. Right, you're supposed to feel
for this doctor, You're supposed to see him as a
moral character, But you're supposed to feel comfortable with abortion,
not because it's something that women need and deserve as
a right to control their own bodies, but because there's
(29:28):
this paternalistic system of lawyers and doctors making these decisions,
not really women making these decisions. By two, you have MOD,
and MOD was actually an anomaly. I don't actually think
MOD was reflective of its time. And like, if you
look at the other stories that were being told around
mod mod is exceptional. It was one of the first
(29:51):
stories that focused on the woman making the decision and
having the abortion. You don't have to think that way anymore.
It's legal now, She's right, it's really in the New
York stage. But to give that a thought, and her
daughter kind of makes a joke like, well, it's just
like going to the dentist now. And then she Maud
turns around and trying to convince her husband now to
(30:11):
get a vasectomy. She's like, I hear, it's just like
going to the dentist together in a sectomy. Um. But
Maud does end up getting getting her abortion, and there
was a lot of protests at the time. By the
early eighties, it's a lot of this, like both sides.
One example that I think is really excellent UM excellent
(30:33):
in that it is very reflective of the moment that
in which it aired was Cagney and Lacy, which aired
in and Cagney and Lacy were too police officers in
New York City. This particular episode one inve UM was
(30:57):
about character comes to the priest say because she's trying
to access an abortion, and um, she's scared of getting
through the line of protesters outside of the clinic, and
Cagney and lazy Um kind of escort her there and
get her through the engage with the protesters. You actually
never find out if this woman gets her abortion. Excuse me, ma'am,
(31:20):
I'm an officer at the law. This lady's going inside
and stop and think about what you are doing before.
So it's not about the woman getting the abortion in
a meaningful way. It's very much about her story creating
this conversation between Cagney and lazy I was raised Catholic.
This is hard one for me. Oh, I see you doing.
(31:43):
Women like Mrs Herrera are wrong. I don't have a
right to make their own decisions. I didn't say that,
But there are other choices besides abortion. So what you're
seeing here is a lot of what was happening in
the eighties. One protesters right, Like, we're seeing this ramping
up of a really active anti abortion movement that's blocking
clinic entrances, that's making the people seeking services uncomfortable. You
(32:05):
see this like both sides right, we have to be
fair and balanced and how we're we're talking about this
the most prototypical nineties story that I liked it on
is the TV film UM, If These Walls Could Talk,
If These Walls Could Talk, A sort of three A
story about three vignettes. The first one is a story
(32:29):
about illegal abortion. Stars Demi Moore. Her character is a widow,
a recent, very recent widow. She has been in part
of her grief having an affair with her late husband's brother,
and she finds out she's pregnant. It's clear that it
(32:52):
could not be her husband's child. Um, she seeks an
illegal abortion. Anybody else here, No where's your kitchen? She
has the abortion on her kitchen table, and she dies hospital.
(33:14):
The next story is about a mother with teenage children
who finds out that she is pregnant and she considers
getting an abortion. Um. She doesn't really want to be pregnant,
her children are older. She doesn't really want to start
over with the baby. I just want you to understand
how important school is to me. Come on, honey, I
know that, No, you don't. If you did, you know
(33:36):
that my quitting school isn't the answer to everything. Um.
She really goes back and forth and weighs her choices.
I just wanted to let you know where I decided
I'm going to have the baby. And this was really
typical of what we saw in the nineties, which we
call the averted abortion. Now this one was wasn't like
(34:01):
typical of an averted story necessarily because a lot of
these stories were a character gets pregnant, considers having an abortion,
decides not to get one, and then has a miscarriage
or then finds out that the pregnancy test was a
false positive. Right, So in those cases, the character doesn't
have to deal with the consequences of choosing to continue
the pregnancy. There's no miscarriage in that particular story. But
(34:24):
because of the structure of the film, with like sort
of this one vignette that fades out, this next vignette
that fades and you moved to an entirely different story. Basically,
as soon as she decides to continue to pregnancy, that
story is over. And then you have the third fgnette
is about an abortion provider who's put by share and
with UM with clinic violence, and the provider being killed
(34:46):
by the boyfriend of a patient that she is um
that she's treating at the time. Can I ask you
a question, h It's all that you have to do
is why do you why do you still do this
because I remember what it was like when it was
illegal for women to make this decision. I don't ever
want to see those days come again. And also when
(35:07):
a woman comes to me and says that she doesn't
know what she would have done without my health, I
know I'm doing the right job. And so you see
her like literally after being shot, like laying on the
floor of the clinics. But what we really see in
(35:28):
the nineties is totally consistent with this like Bill Clintonian
idea that was prevalent at the time, which is abortion
is between a woman and her doctor, and we're striving
for safe, legal and rare. When you look at like
why is the screenwriter including an abortion and the story
in the nineties, it was because the decision is dramatic,
(35:51):
The decision is hard. The decision is going to bring
a character to a crisis point for a relationship, for
a count, you know, like a put them on it
if her path right. The decision itself is what the
story was about. Um And again, this is this is
where we were in our politics, this is where we
were in our cultural narratives. Is what we see on
screen when we come back filmmakers on why they want
(36:15):
to tell new abortion stories. The good news is filmmakers
are breaking free of those old abortion tropes because of
new streaming technology. There's frankly, just a lot more movies
(36:35):
and TV out there, and more content means more abortion stories,
and those stories are starting to take some chances. Here's
Gretchen's co researcher, Steph Harold. So today you don't often
see a character who's kind of going back and forth like, well,
I have the abortion, why not? What am I gonna do?
I need to ask everyone around me? Um? For example,
(36:57):
we see just in the last couple of years, we've
had ad shows like Shrill on Hulu where a character
like as soon as she gets pregnant, she knows that
she wants to have an abortion right and ultimately the
the abortion actually helps her see more clearly other things
in her life. I got myself into this huge fucking mess,
(37:19):
but I made a decision only for me, for myself,
and I got myself out of it. The abortion has
become less about um um like drama in someone's life
about that decision, and more about oh, this is a
moment where a character is investing in themselves um and
(37:39):
is realizing what you know what's going on in their
life that they want to change or want to do differently.
There have been a couple of movies that have come
out in the last couple of years. I'm thinking of
um Never Rarely Sometimes Always Unpregnant that have tried that
have shown they're kind of like abortion road trip movies,
like one is very serious and one is like a
Buddy Come. But they show these young teenagers who need
(38:04):
to travel long distances to get the abortion that they
need because they can't in their state because there are
these laws that make it so they need to share
with their parents and they don't want to. It shows
that they have to travel, they have to figure out
how they're going to know miss school and how that
will be explained, they need to get the money to
pay for the abortion, um and lots of various hijinks
and sue along the way. Both of the movies some
(38:27):
you know, like greatly serious, some hilarious. So I think
those have done a good job at helping audiences to
see and really make visible those kinds of experiences. Okay,
I know we're not like close anymore, true, and I'm
probably the last person that you want to help accurate,
but you have a car there it is. Trust me,
(38:48):
if if I could just go somewhere in town or
to St. Louis, even I wouldn't even here. I'm Rachelie
Goldenberg and I am the director and co writer of Pregnant.
The earliest abortion media memory that I have is dirty dancing.
You know, when I first thought, I didn't even realize
(39:09):
that it was an abortion storyline. And then as I
got older, you know, realized it and had actually heard
the writer, heard eleanor Bursting talk about this and say
that what she did was if you want to put
abortion in a story, you need to make sure that
it's essential to the plots that it cannot be cut out.
If it's a new storyline and see storyline, it's gonna
get cut out. But if you make something essential for
(39:29):
your a storyline up and around it, then you get
to hold onto it. And so uh so we did
with I'm Pregnant. Is it's very much the a storyline.
Unpregnant is based on the y A novel of the
same name by authors Jenny Hendricks and Ted Kaplan. Rachel's
movie came out in seventeen year old overachiever Veronica gets
(39:51):
pregnant and needs an abortion, and because of Missouri's restrictive laws,
she must drive a thousand miles to get one, and
she enlists the help of a wild ex bests friend Bailey,
and chaos and sues. It's one of those things because
my when my writing partner and I were reading the
book and we said, can that be write a thousand miles?
(40:13):
And we so we did, researched all the surrounding states.
It just felt inconceivable that would literally be a thousand miles.
And then yeahs is the closest, closest access that Ronica
could have. As a quick side note amidst all the
bad news about abortion in this country, I'm happy to
report there is at least one improvement that would have
(40:36):
dramatically cut down for Ronica's trip. As of mere days
ago June one, Illinois no longer requires that minors seeking
abortions get parental consent. You know, the the intention of
the book was, you know, to to sort of show
how difficult this journey is and to de stigmatized abortion,
(40:57):
and so taking that mission, but finding other ways to
do that in the film was my mission. So, for example,
the the scene with the abortion itself where we go
into the clinic. That was one of those things where
it wasn't quite written in that detail, or you weren't
in the moment to moment with Veronica in the book
for that. But I took a tour of a Los
(41:18):
Angeles plan parenthood and they walked me through all the
steps and I because my abortion was was a pill
and so I hadn't been through the surgical process, and
I was like, oh my god, I didn't know any
of this. We need to show people all of this.
You know, they're shocking things like finding out that in
under ten minutes you're in and out of the surgery room.
It's actually not that complicated a procedure. So that sort
(41:40):
of thing felt really important to me to bring bring
to the table. But then, you know, the spirit of
things that were in the book are ways that we
just you know, the things that we brought to the
film as well, like just not uh not having Veronica
uh make a pro and con list. You know, she
knew what she wanted to do. She was clear on
her decision. And the problem in the in the film
(42:01):
is how do I get it? How do I get access?
What was fascinating that I didn't anticipate when I started
the process with Unpregnant was how I would become a
vessel for people's stories. I'm interviewing, you know, two different
casting directors, and they both are telling me about their auctions,
and I'm, you know, hearing sort of all the different perspectives,
(42:22):
and that actually was hugely informative in the process for
the film, because I am so familiar with my own experience,
but to hear other people's stories and really help broaden
my understanding my own perspective was helpful for the film
because when we did occasionally get the notes about should
she make a pro and calm list or how difficult
should you know, should this be for her? I could
(42:45):
really draw from my own experience and defend how confident
she was in her decision and how and how she
moves on. And you know, the most difficult part for
her afterwards is talking to her mom about it, not
the fact that she did it. I'm not sure I'll
ever understand. I'm sorry, I know is I love you,
(43:06):
sweet people, so much more than all of that. Okay, okay.
G's like probably a lot of people in America who
who have an understanding of abortion is something that's bad.
But then if there's someone in their life that that
that it touches, then all of a sudden, they're not
(43:27):
going to cut that person out of their life. You know,
most parents love their kids more than they hate their choices.
There's a perception that it's a hot button issue and
people are on one side or the other, but the
truth is that it's it's usually much more gray, And
to me, that's an opportunity because it feels like there's
a move there's a lot of space to bring people
over to acceptance. I am actually uh working on the
(43:50):
next abortion project that's in a totally different space right now.
Um that's not quite ready to be talked about, but
it's um yeah, it's a totally different tone and totally
different um subject matter. It's sort of looking more critically
at the history um of abortion. You know, it's one
of those things where it's like, is it anyone's responsibility? No,
no one has to do anything, but this is a
(44:12):
right that we're losing. It's like it's fucking diret right now.
It's crazy. And so you know, anything that anyone can
do in whatever space they're in, it's all important, and
it's all necessary and well, you don't have to do anything.
It's almost like as much as anyone's doing isn't enough
right now, we all have to be doing everything. Um
so it's it feels, yes, very urgent. I think like
(44:36):
film can help you understand, understand things are complicated, understand
things that are foreign to you or to your experience.
And so I hope that more people will be valuing
film and making things that are sober and well considered
and well researched, because in the you know, we have
a truth problem, and and I think the only way
(45:00):
to address that it is to be really rigorous in
our storytelling and not just appeal to people's heartstrings, but
to do the hard work of you know, following a
to B and allowing people to see for themselves what's
really happening if they will look. My name is Dawn Porter,
and I'm a filmmaker. I primarily make documentary films. Don
(45:24):
Porter is part of a larger cohort of documentarians who
are tackling the reality of abortion. Her film, called Trapped,
looks at targeted regulation of abortion providers or trapped laws.
It felt like for people like me who were like
pro choice on paper, that we kind of needed to
(45:45):
see what was really happening UM, And what was really
happening is people who did not have access to birth control,
who did not have medical insurance UM, who were on
public assistance, were caught in a system where they were
hoping to not get pregnant and hoping not to make
(46:06):
this decision. And there were no faces to go along
with what was happening in the clinics, and I thought
people have this mistaken idea that it's irresponsible party girls,
that people didn't give a lot of thought to the
idea of abortion, and nothing could be further from the truth.
(46:28):
There was nobody whooping and hollering and celebrating UM. The
biggest reaction when we would ask people who were recovering
and who agreed to talk to us was relief. I'm
so glad that that. I'm so relieved, you know, they
were with a doctor who kept them safe, that they
you know, the actual procedure also takes five minutes. Five minutes.
(46:52):
It is a clump of cells UM in most cases,
and the overwhelming number of cases, I was shocked by that,
and I thought people need to kind of see what
it actually is because there's so much rhetoric that happens
that we are influenced by, even if we are a
pro choice, that we kind of needed. I wanted to
(47:13):
bring medicine back into it, but also some humanity, you know.
I think one of the most powerful influences of film
is the ability to um generate some empathy. Um. But
also I think it was really helpful to destigmatize abortion.
(47:35):
And at every single screaming without fail um, somebody stood
up and said, I want to tell my abortion story
for the first time, and many many people cried, And
I think they were crying from relief that a lot
of women had a lot of shame that they were
somehow to blame for their abortion stories. When it comes
(47:56):
to the greater landscape of abortion stories on screen, Don says,
there's still a ways to go. I think that that
there are some um, you know, there's some efforts in
some awareness, and I think Planned Parenthood Karen's Bruk in particular,
is part of her job is to help advise creators
(48:20):
about what really happens in abortion situations. So I think
that there are some bright spots, but UM, I don't
think it's really UM. Still, I don't think it's realistic.
I don't think we talked enough about the economics of abortion.
I don't think we talked about the number of minority
(48:41):
women who are making this choice. I really don't see
those stories on TV. You see a young, attractive like
girl who gets pregnant and is you know, shouting her femininity. Um,
but I think that that is um, that's not a
full representation of what's actually happening. Again, here's step Harold.
(49:05):
I need to see characters who are ordering pills online,
having their abortions themselves at home, surrounded by their loved ones,
having their friend there with them, googling because a friend
did this last month, instead of a legal abortion being
this kind of um dark thing that happened in the past.
We need to see how characters are going to navigate
this moment where abortion is illegal again, but now we
(49:27):
have the technology to get the abortion pills ourselves, right,
and what it means for them to do that medically safely,
but have it be legally risky, which is what it
is in real life. Right. Um. We need to see
characters grapple with now, if I'm caught, what will happen?
Because we know that you know, people across the country
are already being criminalized for for managing their own abortions.
(49:50):
And then I think it's just having an entire TV
series that focus on abortion right, abortion clinics or abortion funds,
abortion travel networks. If there's so much Mitch storytelling possibility there, um,
instead of having it be you know, you're one really
promiscuous character. It gets pregnant and has an abortion, and
that's it. That's a wonderful story to tell, but it
(50:12):
can't be the only one that we see. We need
to see better representation of all kinds of people who
have abortions on television and film. Right. We need more
TV shows and films period that focus on characters of color.
But we also need to see those characters having their
abortions and supporting their friends and family having abortions. UM.
That I think that is crucially important, UM for representation. Right.
(50:36):
It helps everybody who's going through their abortions now feel
us alone. UM. It helps um normalize abortion and abortion experiences. Obviously,
representation doesn't fix everything, but it's a small step towards
people feeling not alone, people feeling secure and safe in
their decision. My name is Jack. My pronouns are they,
(50:58):
then there's We're in sexual education and wellness, and I'm
based out of Los Angeles. It's so weird. It's been
ten years now. I had an abortion when I was twenty.
I was in college and I was in a relationship
with my high school sweetheart. We grew up in Miami
together and we both ended up going to college in Orlando.
It was not a good relationship, unfortunately. It was very
(51:20):
toxic and it was very back and forth. And what
had happened was is the condom broke. I did go
ahead and take a Plan V, but that only really
stopped too from ovulating. And apparently I'm just fertile. So
I believe about about a month I want to say,
like three or four weeks goes by. I had my
twentieth birthday. I'm thinking everything should be fine, but I
(51:42):
never start my cycle. So I grew up a pregnancy test,
try it to be on it, and it immediately comes
back positive. You know, at the time, I had fairly
freshly come out as a non binary person. I think
at the time I was identifying specifically as a gender
and that I've always experienced dysphoria from having a womb.
(52:03):
It's not really been so much of an external experience
for me, Like I love I'm cool with the way
I look, I'm cool with all that. But for some reason,
just the concept of having a womb and the concept
of being pregnant is absolutely mortifying to me. So I
communicated with the partner I had at the time, and
we both were very much team abortion. We called I'm
(52:27):
nervous as hell. I make an appointment for the first
one that was available for saying in the morning, like
eight in the morning, I believe, as soon as I
could get one was about a week out too, which
was not fun because I'm sitting for a week going
still pregnant, not not too stoked on that, you know.
I remember walking in seeing protesters they had something there
(52:48):
was there was a signage that was specifically um like
targeting or marketing father saying like it's your baby too.
And when I go in, the person in the whoever
the receptionist was, was just the sweetest person in the
world is immediately smiling at me, and a lot of
my anxiety kind of went down after meeting them, and
they were playing Maide in Manhattan in the lobby. Oh lord,
(53:10):
almost sund on your faith right there, and I'm Puerto Rican,
so I was like, wait, this let's be a sign
JL Yes, Jlo soothed my fears about this abortion situation.
I chose to have a medication abortion specifically versus a
surgical one because well, one, it was cheaper by about
a hundred dollars and this was not something that I
(53:33):
had pocket money for. Um. And the second big reason
for me is I was really uncomfortable with the concept
of having someone just in my crotch. UM. I did
not want to be exposed to strangers in that way.
I felt really uncomfortable with that. So I thought that
this would be a better a better option because I
(53:54):
could take I could take these pills, I could go home.
You take one at the clinic and then you take
the rest home like Unfortunately, that same year, something passed
in Florida right before I went to get my abortion,
where you had to get a transvaginal ultrasound that is
an internal ultrasound. That is not the cute see in
the movies, A little bit of Jilli on your telling
me no, they put something inside you. And that is
(54:15):
kind of what I was trying to avoid. That kind
of situation was exactly what I was trying to stare
away from by choosing medication abortion. But unfortunately they wanted to,
I guess, make sure that I was pregnant, even though
I was pretty damn sure I was pregnant. Um, and
then when I went back for a follow up in
two weeks, I had to do that again. Um. Yeah,
(54:41):
at the time, this is this happened in two thousand eleven.
I want to stay around there. You know, at the time,
there weren't a lot of conversations about trans people in
medical spaces, especially in healthcare situations. You know, there's no
you'll see it now, especially now that I live in
(55:02):
Los Angeles, you know, and you fill out your forms,
there's a space for a preferred name, there's a space
for your pronouns. I feel like now we're beginning to
recognize that everybody who has a uterus or needs, you know,
this kind of reproductive health care is going to identify
as a woman. So fantastic, But again, ten years ago,
not not a thing. So I had to go into
(55:22):
this thing by myself and have conversations with you know,
very sweet staff. Really, I really appreciate how much they
were trying to help me, but it was really difficult
to go in for service where every two seconds you're
being miss gendered and you're being talked to and about
as if you are of an identity that you're not.
(55:46):
Being miss gendered is very much an act of violence,
and it's very upsetting to have to be in that
space where you're already vulnerable something I don't like being,
and then I have to navigate that. I didn't tell
very many people about it either, with my older sister
at the time too, and I never mentioned it. You know,
clearly I was unwell, but I didn't talk about it.
(56:06):
I didn't even tell my family till years later. For me,
the experience was something that I just it was in
the way. It was just something I needed to get done,
UM so I could continue my life. I've never felt
guilty about it. I've never felt um, you know, ashamed
of having had an abortion. It was just it's a thing.
It happened. I had my feelings, and I'm moving on.
(56:28):
I did a fellowship UH and an internship with Planned
Parenthood specifically, and I volunteered with NAREL and other other organizations,
other reproductive rights UM organizations and the experiences weren't weren't great.
I feel like even though that these people, you know,
we're definitely trying to fight for the same endgame where
you know, obviously abortion accesses is fully there. The way
(56:50):
that I was spoken to, especially then, was not acceptable.
You know, it was always very much you know, we
have to make sure women have access to this first,
and then we'll cover nuances like you know, transgender not
conforming people accessing abortion, or people of color neating abortion.
The narrative was always very much around since gendered white women,
and I just I was always put off by that
(57:11):
because it just doesn't that's not how this works. It's
never it's never been successful to just aim to support
one group and then it trickles down. That's it's never worked.
So I don't know where that idea came from. So
when I was finally presented with an opportunity to be
in a cohort where the majority of the people there
are people of color, and eventually, you know, I was
(57:31):
the only trans person at first, but eventually not. Now
there are other trans people talking about similar experiences. When
I first heard that there was another trans person who
was going to be joining me testify I cried because
I had not I've never met or spoken to any
other trans person that's had an abortion. I know where,
(57:52):
I know we're there, I know we're out here. It's
just it's a completely different experience. We can actually interact
with that person when other people, specially um, you know,
you've come to me other trans folks and then gender
not conforming folks come to me with you know, you
made me feel like like I'm okay, like I'm gonna
be fine. You know, we're out here. This is normal.
(58:12):
My heart, I can't. It kills me, but it's good.
It's good. High listeners for all of you who have
been with us these last four episodes, Thank you so
much for listening. Two quick things. One, if you're interested,
Alison Leavy's comedy show Oh God to show about abortion
(58:35):
got extended. Find more about how to see it in
l A or New York at Oh God show dot com. Also,
how are you all doing considering all that's happened. I'd
love to hear from you. You can call this number
one eight four four four seven nine seven eight eight
three and leave me a message about what you're thinking,
(58:57):
or maybe the actions you're taking, or even things you
have learned and want to share about abortion. Your message
might be included in a future episode, and we really
will appreciate hearing from you. All that number again one
eight four four four seven nine seven eight eight three.
(59:17):
Abortion The Body Politic is executive produced by me Katie
Couric and was created by small team led by our
intrepid supervising producer Lauren Hansen. Editing and sound designed by
Derrick Clements researched by Nina Perlman. Production and editing help
for this episode from Julia Weaver and Mary do and
(59:40):
a special thanks to k c M producers Courtney Litz
and Adriana Fasio
I'm Katie Curic, and this is abortion the Body Politic
Part four at the Supreme Court today an historic upheaval.
Brow is dead. The Conservative Court world six to three
Friday to uphold a Republican backed Mississippi law that bands
abortion after fifteen weeks of pregnancy, and five of those
(00:22):
justices went even further, voting to overturn rovers Wait itself,
and the question of abortion has been returned to the
states After the Supreme Court took away the federal rights
an abortion. On June, abortion rights supporters flooded city streets
from Seattle to Boston and right here in New York
(00:44):
City about it. Already, a delusive litigation is underway. Thirteen
states have abortion bands in place, designed to be triggered
and take effect immediately after row Fell as if this recording.
At least six states, including Missouri, have begun to enforce
(01:04):
their trigger bands to prohibit abortion entirely, but the anti
abortion wins are not all immediate. A judge has granted
a restraining order blocking Utah's abortion band from being enforced.
At least two states have temporarily blocked enforcement of their
trigger law bands on abortion. In the first three parts
(01:28):
of this series, we traced how we got to this
point because the Supreme Court decision didn't happen in a vacuum,
and in fact, the dismantling of Row is still one
moment in the long arc of reproductive rights in this country.
There's still a way to go, and part of that
journey is understanding how we tell stories about abortion in
(01:50):
the first place. Today we're examining how abortion has been
explored and reflected in popular culture and Hollywood, whether we
realize it or not. Movies we have loved and the
TV shows we watch represent the collective imagination of our
culture at any particular moment in time. Filmmaker Gillian Ropes
(02:10):
Pierre directed the ten brom com Obvious Child, which is
still held up eight years later as a movie that
got abortion right. We happened to talk to Gillian on
the day Roe v. Wade was overturned before we talk
about the role of storytelling and conveying messages about abortion. Gillian,
(02:34):
what was your reaction when you heard the news? Yeah, Um,
I'm an easy cry, so I feel like I'm getting
just you know, we knew it was coming. It wasn't
that a total surprise. Um, But I was sitting in
room with my writing partner this morning, and she's a woman,
and uh, we stopped. We just looked at each other
(02:57):
and started crying. UM, and we couldn't, you know, don't
finish our work. But I'm glad we had each other. Um.
And it's devasity, it's good it. It feels like after
the tears came just like anger and pain. Um. But
also I'm fueled by I'll show you that's sort of
(03:20):
why I even made this movie in the first place.
So I do feel like after the tears and and
I will work with the anger to to continue to
figure out how to protest and how to get out
of this mook. I'm trust what you think Hollywood's responsibility
is and what it can do to to change hearts
(03:44):
and minds and inform people about the importance of reproductive rights. Yeah,
you know, I think just to bring it back to
sort of the story of how I made Obvious Child
and how I got it made. I made it outside
of the studio system. I didn't ask for that permission.
(04:05):
But um, the reason why we made it is because
it almost felt like a dare. All these films that
that came out in the mid two thousands about um,
young women having unplanned pregnancies, and they never even mentioned
the word abortion. Um and and it was a nerving
(04:27):
to to watch those films, and it made it a
silent enemy. And I just my whole life, I've kept
on waiting for a film where um they made that
they gave abortion a happy ending. You know, I love
Dirty Dancing and I love Fast Times at Ridgemont High,
and those are movies that I watched as a child,
(04:48):
and Dirty Dancing, Uh, kind of was a scary depiction.
You know, it was true to the time. But I'm
a little kid in the eighties and I was terrified.
Uh there was she almost died um in Fast Times,
it was you know, she Jennifer Jason Lee's character had
no reservations about making that choice, which I thought was cool.
(05:11):
But my young brain only took away from that movie
that losing your virginity hurts, and guys suck and it's
cool to have an older brother. Um. But when I
had my abortion, I couldn't help but think of all
of these movies, these awful depictions, and yeah, I was scared,
And did I think I was Did it cross my
(05:33):
mind that I could die. Yeah, but that was not
you know, the reality is I had a very nice abortion.
I wasn't met with anti choice protesters or mean doctors
or unsupportive parents are partner. It was not traumatizing, and
I was relief. Um And and all of those movies, uh,
(06:00):
you know, kind of scared me. What about Knocked Up
in Juno for example? Where did you see the narrative
of those movies not kind of fulfilling your view of abortion? Right? Well,
I'm also a huge fan of rom coms. I love them,
(06:23):
and I feel like those movies were the ones that
were daring me to try to make a rom colm
with an abortion that had an happy ending, Like I
dare you, idiot, try it. You're going to fail, because
because no one wants to see that movie. And so
that's sort of what spurred Obvious Child was to try
to make a film where the abortion is the catalyst
(06:45):
for abudding romance and and to show that in a
movie with an abortion can be both funny and poignant
and entertaining. Um and it could you know, show positive Yeah,
no stigma or shame is involved this. You know, Donna,
our main character had an abortion without feeling guilty or traumatized,
(07:08):
and that was similar to my experience. Can you tell
me a little briefly for people who haven't seen it,
who probably will head to to YouTube to see it now,
But can you tell me a little more about the plot,
just so we can give people an idea. Yes, so, Um,
it's about a young woman in her twenties named Donna
(07:30):
Stern played by the amazing Jenny Slate and Donna Stern
is a born and raised New Yorker who's a stand
up comedian and her boyfriend dumps her and she has
a one night stand with the very handsome and tender
Jake Lacey. Uh. She realizes she had is pregnant and
(07:54):
she decides to have an abortion, and the movie sort
of shows her reeling from the pain of a breakup
and trying to figure out will she or won't she
tell Jake Lacey's character it's never um, will she won't
she have the abortion? Maybe you want to tell him, no, why,
(08:19):
why you don't owe him anything? You don't even know
this guy. Maybe he just deserts to know that like
this happened, that I'm not a psycho and I'm going
to get an abortion. Um. And it's framed in a
you know, romantic comedy inspired by uh, you know, all
of the films from from my childhood that I devoured
and and you know, the girl always gets the guy,
(08:41):
but now she also has her future. Unfortunately, I feel like,
you know, because we we missed, we we were we
couldn't tell everyone's story, and obviously, child we can only
tell one woman's story. And Donna came from privilege, and
you know, had all this support. She lived in New York,
so she had access, and so you know, the hopes
(09:02):
were that other stories could sort of burst from this.
I really thought that there is going to be this
giant change in in movies in the depiction of of
unplanned pregnancy and abortion. And I think there were you know,
there's some great films, um Eliza Hitman, who's a pal
(09:26):
of mine, never rarely sometimes always. I just watched I'm
Pregnant yesterday for the first time, and I thought that
was really great film. You know, there's so many stories
to be told. What now for Hollywood? Do you think
this will create a whole new um interest in films
about reproductive rights? I sure hope. So it feels like
(09:51):
we're too late, but I sure hope. So, because um,
we have to continue to make art and tell us
stories that don't silence our experiences because I think, um,
I think silence is the greatest weapon. But I also
uh don't think Hollywood in the studio system is built
(10:13):
to take risks. I UM, I personally don't think telling
these stories are risky. I think we've seen in a
lot of films that these stories work well. You know,
that can be both entertaining and also important. My name's
page and I was twenty nine when I had my abortion.
(10:36):
My abortion story begins with mating my boyfriend Charlie. In
the summer. We started dating and absolutely fell over hill,
head over heels in love um and practiced very safe sex,
ironic lay and we felt pregnant about two months in.
(11:01):
It was interesting because when I read the pregnancy result,
I felt excitement as my first feeling. I told him
right away and he was excited and so very um
you know, a nice emotion at the start that ended
up really challenging the decision making process. Um. And really
(11:27):
I had very little to go off. I couldn't talk
to my friends about it or my family. I had
never known anyone who had ever gotten an abortion. All
I had to go off was what I had understood
of it from popular culture references, and for me growing up,
that was the movie Dirty Dancing, where it was essentially
(11:47):
a girl living on the streets who gets butchered in
a garage. I'ought you said he was a reality. The
guy had dirty knife and folding cable. I could hear
was screaming in the hallway, or Juno, who she gets
shamed out of it. Your baby probably has a beating heart,
you know, it can feel pain, and you do his fingernails,
(12:13):
finger nails really and one day, you know, we go
pick up groceries. I'd be like, okay, now we can
do it. And then in the next aisle he would
say my job don't pay enough. I don't see how
he can do it. And then the next style I
would say, well, maybe I can go back to Australia,
and then the next stile was so what we can't
(12:33):
give up every It was just so volatile in terms
of decision making, because what I learned from movies is
that if you can do it, you should do it.
I have a personality where if something makes me scared,
I'll try to run really almost lean into it, you know,
whether it's moving overseas or pursuing a career that I
(12:54):
don't think I'm ready for X of imposter syndrome or
whatever else, or running the New York City Marathon. And
what my therapist actually shared, what she said, you know, yes,
but you were your time to prepare or to get
comfortable with the choice. And she said, you didn't turn
away from this because you were scared. You turned away
(13:15):
from this was because it wasn't a choice. Um, it
wasn't your choice. I chose to go the medicine route
because I wanted to avoid a procedure um and you know,
going under, whether it's a general anesthetic or a local anesthetic.
And this to me felt like I could do in
(13:35):
the privacy of my home. It would still have the
same results. Um, it just seems like more appropriate choice
for where I was, at least in the pregnancy. I
think even though I had clear direction, it's still such
an overwhelming moment that I had times where I was like, wait,
did I write that down correctly? Have I taken an
(13:56):
hour to early hour too late? Because you just felt
like You've got a lot of weight on this moment um.
And then taking the tablets. It was like very very
very bad cramps. And it lasts some time, um, and
you are kind of alone. You're alone while it happens,
(14:18):
and when you're going back and forth to the bathroom,
and so it can feel a little bit lonely, but
you kind of get to a point where like, I
just need to get through and I want it done now.
I'm happy with my choice. I'm glad what I decided
to do. And it put a lot of things on
my radar, having children and having a family, potentially marriage
(14:40):
and what that really means to me. And so there's
gifts that have come out of it, and it's made
me really really UM. I can't ignore what's happening in
America and I'm a part of it. And I don't
want anyone to feel some of the bad feelings that
I experienced. And if I can be there for someone,
(15:03):
even strangers, I would want them to message me because
I don't. No one's alone. It's actually shocking how not
alone we are and how many people take this option.
After the break a comedy show about abortion, Hi, how
(15:30):
are you do you take? It's take a tin fabulous.
At the end of April, I went to see a
comedy show. It was at the historic Cherry Lane Theater
in a quaint little pocket of Manhattan's West Village. The
night we went, the show was still in previews, but
that didn't matter. It was a packed house. Hi everyone,
if you're here for Allison, leave me. The line starts
(15:50):
right here. Please have your baggy gready ready and off
stand your ticket. Thank you so much. It was called,
Oh God, a show about abortion. The comedian is all
simple be thank you for being here, Thank you for
coming to what my dad calls my special show. Now.
My parents are super supportive. My mom texted me kill
(16:13):
it tonight. That was like, already did so why there's
a show I had an abortion three years ago. Thank you. Um,
I'm still trying to lose the no baby weights. I'm
gonna challenge. I'm not surprised that I needed an abortion.
I am surprised I needed one when I was old
(16:35):
enough to run for presidents. That after the show, I
headed to the green room so Allison and I could
talk shop. I mean, oh God, how did you decide
to do a show about abortion? I really I it
kind of happened organically. I mean, obviously the experience happened
to me. It was not planned, but as a stand
(16:58):
up on somebody who just like writes about what happens
and what I see in the world and things I
think are funny, and I was like going through that experience,
and I was like, there's funny stuff here that isn't
the normal stand up abortion content. I feel like when
people get up and talk about abortion and stand up,
it's usually theoretical or someone liners. I feel like people
don't tell the whole story because like no one really
(17:19):
wants to sit in it that long, because it makes
people uncomfortable even though it shouldn't. So I wrote a
couple of jokes bombed so hard every time I told them,
like the first like five times, just getting up and
doing a ten or fifteen minutes set and in the
middle like trying to slip in this abortion material, and
like you could just you could feel people men crossing
their arms, just like really closing down. And it's like
(17:41):
it's because I wasn't confident and yet I was still
you know, new jokes are always kind of weaker just
because you're not ready to say them yet, and the
way that you do when they're done also popping them
in the middle of a routine. That's sort of hard thing.
But I eventually got to a point where that wasn't
that hard because I liked the jokes that like, I
(18:01):
had the confidence where people were like, she's bringing this
up and then being like we can, She's going to
guide us through this, like this is not going to
be awful. And so I kind of started getting the
material together and I had like five minutes, and then
I had ten minutes, and then I kept being like, oh,
this and this, and and I all of a sudden
I had like fifteen or twenty minutes that worked, and
I was like, well, if I could do twenty, I
(18:24):
could probably do an hour. I mean that kind of
insane ego logic where I'm like, yeah, I can do anything, right.
I went to Planned Parenthood in Soho in New York City,
the fancy downtown neighborhood, because I'm a fancy bitch um,
and I was nervous that there would be protesters, just
because in TV and film and the news, I've always
seen tons of protesters in front of abortion clinics. I'm like,
(18:44):
I don't like wire hangers in my closet. I don't
want them in front of my healthcare clinics. Okay, but
I went and there were not like all, you know,
there weren't all of the crazy things that you would expect.
There were just like four old Catholic people standing across
the street silently like it just looks like that painting
American Gothic twice, but like less scary because they didn't
(19:05):
even have a pitchfork. Was just thank God. There is
a much more intimidating force outside of the Plan Parenthood
and SOHO in New York that is threatening women who
are seeking abortions, and that is across the street from
Plan Parenthood there is a luxury maternity wear store called
Hatch What who own is that? Mike Pets Like, how
(19:27):
did you determine what else you wanted to talk about?
Because you talk obviously about growing up and it really
becomes kind of a full social commentary on your life
in a way. I guess the most natural way to
tell this story is to like step back and look
at it from the bigger picture of like how do
I feel about sex and abortion? And I started. The
(19:50):
thing that's changed the most since I started writing it
is like, what is this serious thing I'm saying, and
and what is the what is the come? Like? What
am I trying to tell people by telling them about abortion?
And it really because it happened to me when I
was so much older. The motherhood conversation with myself was
so real in a way that at five I probably
(20:12):
wouldn't have thought about that, and it would and and
it it impacts you know what people think your choices
are less like if you're and need an abortion, no,
one's like, and now she'll never be a mother, Like
she's made her choice. No, you have a whole life
of your fertility in front of you. But when you're older,
it kind of is this definitive decision. Women's identity and
(20:35):
motherhood are like so collapsed in our culture that it's
actually everything you do, every decision you make, everything you
do is kind of connected to this idea and this identity.
And that's terrible. But what's hard about managing these fears
about fertility is that, like there is no kitchen timer
on men's fertility, women's fertility is very set. If you're
(20:59):
a woman, you're one with all the eggs you're ever
going to have forever, and if you're pregnant with a daughter.
All the eggs she's ever going to have are already
inside of you, which explains a lot of our love
of big purses, you know, just like dig around. You're like,
all right, phone, Pea's wallet, Kleenex, a Clementine from two
and a half weeks ago, my eggs, her eggs. All right,
(21:19):
let's go out. We're ready. Men create sperm throughout their lives.
Men are creating sperm at the rate that Everline is
creating unflattering pants constantly. Like okay, to put it in context,
Richard gear is seventy, his wife is thirty six. We
(21:39):
don't have time to get into all of the problems
with that relationship. But when they have sex, she is
the one that's worried that she's not going to be
able to be a parent because she's too old. She
is the one who is worried the thirty six year old,
not the seventy year old, which is crazy because in
every other context he's the one you're worried about. Walkie
downstairs Edix words we culturally decided. We don't say anymore.
(22:05):
Why did you decide? I mean, especially now it's so
prescient that this was an important piece of work for
you to do and an important issue for you to tackle. Comedically,
I just feel like abortion gets such like a heavy
hand in pop culture so often, and it is always
(22:26):
treated as this like trauma, and I think it is
for many women who experience it, but it's not for
everyone who experiences it, and it doesn't have to be necessarily.
I think a lot of the trauma is imposed by
by society because of the the morality that is imposed
on women who choose to terminate a pregnancy, yes, and
(22:49):
also the women who have to jump through way more
hoops to do it. I mentioned in the show, But like,
of course I'm an incredibly, incredibly privileged woman in the
circumstance I had, Reese says, I was in New York City, Like,
I did not have to drive hundreds of miles or
spend money I didn't have, Like it really was a
lot easier for me, Yeah, or not more or not
(23:10):
be able to have an abortion, right because you just
didn't have access and you had no choice exactly, and
so like, so much of that trauma is based on
the politics of abortion. But also I think that there's
just a lot of people with a narrative that looks
like mine, and I hadn't seen it reflected in stand up.
Very often when women talk about their bodies on stage,
(23:31):
it's inherently politicized. I've heard so many men tell me
so many things about their bodies into a microphone and
it never once gets a reaction of like, but like
when women do it all the time, it does. And
so I've heard like here and there people talk about
abortion a little in passing, just to be like starting
that conversation, and I was like, I think I could
(23:54):
tell the whole thing. Like I think laying out every
detail makes it seem so much more mundane because you're like, oh,
and then you do this, and then you do this,
and you had to get there like this, and that,
Like it makes it a task or like an errand
um when presented procedure, like removing a skin tag or
(24:15):
getting a colonoscopy, or like any of the things that
like we easily can joke about and depict as not
politicized and not traumas. And so I thought I could
do this. Probably I've said abortion more in the last
two years that I've said cumulatively in my entire life.
And it does get easier and even just talking about
(24:39):
it like this, or about the show with a friend,
like I'm finding that like there's just ease to it,
and like that's all that's my only goal for well,
my goal is like for it to be funny first
and foremost, and number two just be like, can't we
just talk about this more? Can't we all just say
this more? I had the incredible experience of many times
when I first started working out the show in much
(25:00):
smaller spaces where I was like got off stage and
I was like, well, now I'm in the crowd. We're
all just hanging out because there's twelve of us here,
um many women who would come up to me and
just be like I had one too, and just instantly
like feel like from seeing it, like the ability to
share that in a way that I don't know how
often they share that. It doesn't seem like very often usually,
(25:22):
And I'm like, well, if that's what the show does,
then that's like all I could possibly wanted to do
is for people to feel able to tell someone me,
a total stranger, or like someone in their life about
an experience they had and not feel bad about it.
More on abortions, betrayal, and popular culture right after this,
(25:46):
So what kind of an impact can film and TV
have on shifting attitudes when it comes to heated social issues.
You can look to gay rights for one example of
the power of representation. I remember waking up and realizing
we were in bed naked with each other, right because
(26:07):
that happened ago. But what about abortion? For more than
a decade, a team of researchers out of San Francisco
have been trying to find out. My name is Gretchen Sistem.
I'm a sociologist at the University of California, San Francisco
in the Department of eccentric skrean Ecology and Reproductive Science UM,
(26:28):
and I'm the lead investigator for the Abortion on Screen
program that studies how abortion and reproductive decision making our
portrayed in American film and television. We started the program
back in and the idea that time was to to
start looking more at culture change and and and considering
(26:51):
how abortion was part of our pop cultural conversations. One
of the earliest depictions that we found as a silent
film from nineteen sixteen Paul Where Are My Children? UM.
It was made by filmmaker Lois webber Um who was
herself a rarity at the time as as a woman
filmmaker in the nineteen tens. The plot line is a
(27:14):
bit convoluted, but it's it's effectively about a district attorney
who's prosecuting a physician who's been performing abortions and has
a patient die. And in the process of this investigation,
the district attorney discovers that his wife has been kind
of helping people find this provider, and then he also
(27:35):
discovers that his wife has had abortions herself UM, which
has led to her inability to get pregnant. It's not
a sort of revolutionary depiction by any means. It just
was the first one, right. It's very it's very stigmatizing.
It talks about abortions being very dangerous, which it could
often be at the time UM, but it also relied
on UM a lot of racist and eugenicis ideas about
(27:59):
both birth troll and an abortion. The first abortion story
that we saw on television was UM the legal show
The Defenders. The Defenders aired on April two. The episode
(28:20):
is about the trial of an abortion provider, Mr Preston.
In the past eight years, over twenty thousand expected mothers
have come into my office each one of the morning
an abortion twenty thousand. It's like deeply stigmatizing, right. It
sort of presents abortion as as the choice of very
desperate women. Um, the provider is very clear that, like,
(28:44):
he doesn't do abortions for some women, for women who are,
you know, too promiscuous and just don't want to deal
with the consequences of their actions. On what the basis
did you design to operate? More than half of them
were married, Harry fused all of them. Why there was
nothing preventing them from having children? I mean, this defender's
episode is absolutely a product of its time. It makes
(29:07):
a strong case for legality. Right, you're supposed to feel
for this doctor, You're supposed to see him as a
moral character, But you're supposed to feel comfortable with abortion,
not because it's something that women need and deserve as
a right to control their own bodies, but because there's
(29:28):
this paternalistic system of lawyers and doctors making these decisions,
not really women making these decisions. By two, you have MOD,
and MOD was actually an anomaly. I don't actually think
MOD was reflective of its time. And like, if you
look at the other stories that were being told around
mod mod is exceptional. It was one of the first
(29:51):
stories that focused on the woman making the decision and
having the abortion. You don't have to think that way anymore.
It's legal now, She's right, it's really in the New
York stage. But to give that a thought, and her
daughter kind of makes a joke like, well, it's just
like going to the dentist now. And then she Maud
turns around and trying to convince her husband now to
(30:11):
get a vasectomy. She's like, I hear, it's just like
going to the dentist together in a sectomy. Um. But
Maud does end up getting getting her abortion, and there
was a lot of protests at the time. By the
early eighties, it's a lot of this, like both sides.
One example that I think is really excellent UM excellent
(30:33):
in that it is very reflective of the moment that
in which it aired was Cagney and Lacy, which aired
in and Cagney and Lacy were too police officers in
New York City. This particular episode one inve UM was
(30:57):
about character comes to the priest say because she's trying
to access an abortion, and um, she's scared of getting
through the line of protesters outside of the clinic, and
Cagney and lazy Um kind of escort her there and
get her through the engage with the protesters. You actually
never find out if this woman gets her abortion. Excuse me, ma'am,
(31:20):
I'm an officer at the law. This lady's going inside
and stop and think about what you are doing before.
So it's not about the woman getting the abortion in
a meaningful way. It's very much about her story creating
this conversation between Cagney and lazy I was raised Catholic.
This is hard one for me. Oh, I see you doing.
(31:43):
Women like Mrs Herrera are wrong. I don't have a
right to make their own decisions. I didn't say that,
But there are other choices besides abortion. So what you're
seeing here is a lot of what was happening in
the eighties. One protesters right, Like, we're seeing this ramping
up of a really active anti abortion movement that's blocking
clinic entrances, that's making the people seeking services uncomfortable. You
(32:05):
see this like both sides right, we have to be
fair and balanced and how we're we're talking about this
the most prototypical nineties story that I liked it on
is the TV film UM, If These Walls Could Talk,
If These Walls Could Talk, A sort of three A
story about three vignettes. The first one is a story
(32:29):
about illegal abortion. Stars Demi Moore. Her character is a widow,
a recent, very recent widow. She has been in part
of her grief having an affair with her late husband's brother,
and she finds out she's pregnant. It's clear that it
(32:52):
could not be her husband's child. Um, she seeks an
illegal abortion. Anybody else here, No where's your kitchen? She
has the abortion on her kitchen table, and she dies hospital.
(33:14):
The next story is about a mother with teenage children
who finds out that she is pregnant and she considers
getting an abortion. Um. She doesn't really want to be pregnant,
her children are older. She doesn't really want to start
over with the baby. I just want you to understand
how important school is to me. Come on, honey, I
know that, No, you don't. If you did, you know
(33:36):
that my quitting school isn't the answer to everything. Um.
She really goes back and forth and weighs her choices.
I just wanted to let you know where I decided
I'm going to have the baby. And this was really
typical of what we saw in the nineties, which we
call the averted abortion. Now this one was wasn't like
(34:01):
typical of an averted story necessarily because a lot of
these stories were a character gets pregnant, considers having an abortion,
decides not to get one, and then has a miscarriage
or then finds out that the pregnancy test was a
false positive. Right, So in those cases, the character doesn't
have to deal with the consequences of choosing to continue
the pregnancy. There's no miscarriage in that particular story. But
(34:24):
because of the structure of the film, with like sort
of this one vignette that fades out, this next vignette
that fades and you moved to an entirely different story. Basically,
as soon as she decides to continue to pregnancy, that
story is over. And then you have the third fgnette
is about an abortion provider who's put by share and
with UM with clinic violence, and the provider being killed
(34:46):
by the boyfriend of a patient that she is um
that she's treating at the time. Can I ask you
a question, h It's all that you have to do
is why do you why do you still do this
because I remember what it was like when it was
illegal for women to make this decision. I don't ever
want to see those days come again. And also when
(35:07):
a woman comes to me and says that she doesn't
know what she would have done without my health, I
know I'm doing the right job. And so you see
her like literally after being shot, like laying on the
floor of the clinics. But what we really see in
(35:28):
the nineties is totally consistent with this like Bill Clintonian
idea that was prevalent at the time, which is abortion
is between a woman and her doctor, and we're striving
for safe, legal and rare. When you look at like
why is the screenwriter including an abortion and the story
in the nineties, it was because the decision is dramatic,
(35:51):
The decision is hard. The decision is going to bring
a character to a crisis point for a relationship, for
a count, you know, like a put them on it
if her path right. The decision itself is what the
story was about. Um And again, this is this is
where we were in our politics, this is where we
were in our cultural narratives. Is what we see on
screen when we come back filmmakers on why they want
(36:15):
to tell new abortion stories. The good news is filmmakers
are breaking free of those old abortion tropes because of
new streaming technology. There's frankly, just a lot more movies
(36:35):
and TV out there, and more content means more abortion stories,
and those stories are starting to take some chances. Here's
Gretchen's co researcher, Steph Harold. So today you don't often
see a character who's kind of going back and forth like, well,
I have the abortion, why not? What am I gonna do?
I need to ask everyone around me? Um? For example,
(36:57):
we see just in the last couple of years, we've
had ad shows like Shrill on Hulu where a character
like as soon as she gets pregnant, she knows that
she wants to have an abortion right and ultimately the
the abortion actually helps her see more clearly other things
in her life. I got myself into this huge fucking mess,
(37:19):
but I made a decision only for me, for myself,
and I got myself out of it. The abortion has
become less about um um like drama in someone's life
about that decision, and more about oh, this is a
moment where a character is investing in themselves um and
(37:39):
is realizing what you know what's going on in their
life that they want to change or want to do differently.
There have been a couple of movies that have come
out in the last couple of years. I'm thinking of
um Never Rarely Sometimes Always Unpregnant that have tried that
have shown they're kind of like abortion road trip movies,
like one is very serious and one is like a
Buddy Come. But they show these young teenagers who need
(38:04):
to travel long distances to get the abortion that they
need because they can't in their state because there are
these laws that make it so they need to share
with their parents and they don't want to. It shows
that they have to travel, they have to figure out
how they're going to know miss school and how that
will be explained, they need to get the money to
pay for the abortion, um and lots of various hijinks
and sue along the way. Both of the movies some
(38:27):
you know, like greatly serious, some hilarious. So I think
those have done a good job at helping audiences to
see and really make visible those kinds of experiences. Okay,
I know we're not like close anymore, true, and I'm
probably the last person that you want to help accurate,
but you have a car there it is. Trust me,
(38:48):
if if I could just go somewhere in town or
to St. Louis, even I wouldn't even here. I'm Rachelie
Goldenberg and I am the director and co writer of Pregnant.
The earliest abortion media memory that I have is dirty dancing.
You know, when I first thought, I didn't even realize
(39:09):
that it was an abortion storyline. And then as I
got older, you know, realized it and had actually heard
the writer, heard eleanor Bursting talk about this and say
that what she did was if you want to put
abortion in a story, you need to make sure that
it's essential to the plots that it cannot be cut out.
If it's a new storyline and see storyline, it's gonna
get cut out. But if you make something essential for
(39:29):
your a storyline up and around it, then you get
to hold onto it. And so uh so we did
with I'm Pregnant. Is it's very much the a storyline.
Unpregnant is based on the y A novel of the
same name by authors Jenny Hendricks and Ted Kaplan. Rachel's
movie came out in seventeen year old overachiever Veronica gets
(39:51):
pregnant and needs an abortion, and because of Missouri's restrictive laws,
she must drive a thousand miles to get one, and
she enlists the help of a wild ex bests friend Bailey,
and chaos and sues. It's one of those things because
my when my writing partner and I were reading the
book and we said, can that be write a thousand miles?
(40:13):
And we so we did, researched all the surrounding states.
It just felt inconceivable that would literally be a thousand miles.
And then yeahs is the closest, closest access that Ronica
could have. As a quick side note amidst all the
bad news about abortion in this country, I'm happy to
report there is at least one improvement that would have
(40:36):
dramatically cut down for Ronica's trip. As of mere days
ago June one, Illinois no longer requires that minors seeking
abortions get parental consent. You know, the the intention of
the book was, you know, to to sort of show
how difficult this journey is and to de stigmatized abortion,
(40:57):
and so taking that mission, but finding other ways to
do that in the film was my mission. So, for example,
the the scene with the abortion itself where we go
into the clinic. That was one of those things where
it wasn't quite written in that detail, or you weren't
in the moment to moment with Veronica in the book
for that. But I took a tour of a Los
(41:18):
Angeles plan parenthood and they walked me through all the
steps and I because my abortion was was a pill
and so I hadn't been through the surgical process, and
I was like, oh my god, I didn't know any
of this. We need to show people all of this.
You know, they're shocking things like finding out that in
under ten minutes you're in and out of the surgery room.
It's actually not that complicated a procedure. So that sort
(41:40):
of thing felt really important to me to bring bring
to the table. But then, you know, the spirit of
things that were in the book are ways that we
just you know, the things that we brought to the
film as well, like just not uh not having Veronica
uh make a pro and con list. You know, she
knew what she wanted to do. She was clear on
her decision. And the problem in the in the film
(42:01):
is how do I get it? How do I get access?
What was fascinating that I didn't anticipate when I started
the process with Unpregnant was how I would become a
vessel for people's stories. I'm interviewing, you know, two different
casting directors, and they both are telling me about their auctions,
and I'm, you know, hearing sort of all the different perspectives,
(42:22):
and that actually was hugely informative in the process for
the film, because I am so familiar with my own experience,
but to hear other people's stories and really help broaden
my understanding my own perspective was helpful for the film
because when we did occasionally get the notes about should
she make a pro and calm list or how difficult
should you know, should this be for her? I could
(42:45):
really draw from my own experience and defend how confident
she was in her decision and how and how she
moves on. And you know, the most difficult part for
her afterwards is talking to her mom about it, not
the fact that she did it. I'm not sure I'll
ever understand. I'm sorry, I know is I love you,
(43:06):
sweet people, so much more than all of that. Okay, okay.
G's like probably a lot of people in America who
who have an understanding of abortion is something that's bad.
But then if there's someone in their life that that
that it touches, then all of a sudden, they're not
(43:27):
going to cut that person out of their life. You know,
most parents love their kids more than they hate their choices.
There's a perception that it's a hot button issue and
people are on one side or the other, but the
truth is that it's it's usually much more gray, And
to me, that's an opportunity because it feels like there's
a move there's a lot of space to bring people
over to acceptance. I am actually uh working on the
(43:50):
next abortion project that's in a totally different space right now.
Um that's not quite ready to be talked about, but
it's um yeah, it's a totally different tone and totally
different um subject matter. It's sort of looking more critically
at the history um of abortion. You know, it's one
of those things where it's like, is it anyone's responsibility? No,
no one has to do anything, but this is a
(44:12):
right that we're losing. It's like it's fucking diret right now.
It's crazy. And so you know, anything that anyone can
do in whatever space they're in, it's all important, and
it's all necessary and well, you don't have to do anything.
It's almost like as much as anyone's doing isn't enough
right now, we all have to be doing everything. Um
so it's it feels, yes, very urgent. I think like
(44:36):
film can help you understand, understand things are complicated, understand
things that are foreign to you or to your experience.
And so I hope that more people will be valuing
film and making things that are sober and well considered
and well researched, because in the you know, we have
a truth problem, and and I think the only way
(45:00):
to address that it is to be really rigorous in
our storytelling and not just appeal to people's heartstrings, but
to do the hard work of you know, following a
to B and allowing people to see for themselves what's
really happening if they will look. My name is Dawn Porter,
and I'm a filmmaker. I primarily make documentary films. Don
(45:24):
Porter is part of a larger cohort of documentarians who
are tackling the reality of abortion. Her film, called Trapped,
looks at targeted regulation of abortion providers or trapped laws.
It felt like for people like me who were like
pro choice on paper, that we kind of needed to
(45:45):
see what was really happening UM, And what was really
happening is people who did not have access to birth control,
who did not have medical insurance UM, who were on
public assistance, were caught in a system where they were
hoping to not get pregnant and hoping not to make
(46:06):
this decision. And there were no faces to go along
with what was happening in the clinics, and I thought
people have this mistaken idea that it's irresponsible party girls,
that people didn't give a lot of thought to the
idea of abortion, and nothing could be further from the truth.
(46:28):
There was nobody whooping and hollering and celebrating UM. The
biggest reaction when we would ask people who were recovering
and who agreed to talk to us was relief. I'm
so glad that that. I'm so relieved, you know, they
were with a doctor who kept them safe, that they
you know, the actual procedure also takes five minutes. Five minutes.
(46:52):
It is a clump of cells UM in most cases,
and the overwhelming number of cases, I was shocked by that,
and I thought people need to kind of see what
it actually is because there's so much rhetoric that happens
that we are influenced by, even if we are a
pro choice, that we kind of needed. I wanted to
(47:13):
bring medicine back into it, but also some humanity, you know.
I think one of the most powerful influences of film
is the ability to um generate some empathy. Um. But
also I think it was really helpful to destigmatize abortion.
(47:35):
And at every single screaming without fail um, somebody stood
up and said, I want to tell my abortion story
for the first time, and many many people cried, And
I think they were crying from relief that a lot
of women had a lot of shame that they were
somehow to blame for their abortion stories. When it comes
(47:56):
to the greater landscape of abortion stories on screen, Don says,
there's still a ways to go. I think that that
there are some um, you know, there's some efforts in
some awareness, and I think Planned Parenthood Karen's Bruk in particular,
is part of her job is to help advise creators
(48:20):
about what really happens in abortion situations. So I think
that there are some bright spots, but UM, I don't
think it's really UM. Still, I don't think it's realistic.
I don't think we talked enough about the economics of abortion.
I don't think we talked about the number of minority
(48:41):
women who are making this choice. I really don't see
those stories on TV. You see a young, attractive like
girl who gets pregnant and is you know, shouting her femininity. Um,
but I think that that is um, that's not a
full representation of what's actually happening. Again, here's step Harold.
(49:05):
I need to see characters who are ordering pills online,
having their abortions themselves at home, surrounded by their loved ones,
having their friend there with them, googling because a friend
did this last month, instead of a legal abortion being
this kind of um dark thing that happened in the past.
We need to see how characters are going to navigate
this moment where abortion is illegal again, but now we
(49:27):
have the technology to get the abortion pills ourselves, right,
and what it means for them to do that medically safely,
but have it be legally risky, which is what it
is in real life. Right. Um. We need to see
characters grapple with now, if I'm caught, what will happen?
Because we know that you know, people across the country
are already being criminalized for for managing their own abortions.
(49:50):
And then I think it's just having an entire TV
series that focus on abortion right, abortion clinics or abortion funds,
abortion travel networks. If there's so much Mitch storytelling possibility there, um,
instead of having it be you know, you're one really
promiscuous character. It gets pregnant and has an abortion, and
that's it. That's a wonderful story to tell, but it
(50:12):
can't be the only one that we see. We need
to see better representation of all kinds of people who
have abortions on television and film. Right. We need more
TV shows and films period that focus on characters of color.
But we also need to see those characters having their
abortions and supporting their friends and family having abortions. UM.
That I think that is crucially important, UM for representation. Right.
(50:36):
It helps everybody who's going through their abortions now feel
us alone. UM. It helps um normalize abortion and abortion experiences. Obviously,
representation doesn't fix everything, but it's a small step towards
people feeling not alone, people feeling secure and safe in
their decision. My name is Jack. My pronouns are they,
(50:58):
then there's We're in sexual education and wellness, and I'm
based out of Los Angeles. It's so weird. It's been
ten years now. I had an abortion when I was twenty.
I was in college and I was in a relationship
with my high school sweetheart. We grew up in Miami
together and we both ended up going to college in Orlando.
It was not a good relationship, unfortunately. It was very
(51:20):
toxic and it was very back and forth. And what
had happened was is the condom broke. I did go
ahead and take a Plan V, but that only really
stopped too from ovulating. And apparently I'm just fertile. So
I believe about about a month I want to say,
like three or four weeks goes by. I had my
twentieth birthday. I'm thinking everything should be fine, but I
(51:42):
never start my cycle. So I grew up a pregnancy test,
try it to be on it, and it immediately comes
back positive. You know, at the time, I had fairly
freshly come out as a non binary person. I think
at the time I was identifying specifically as a gender
and that I've always experienced dysphoria from having a womb.
(52:03):
It's not really been so much of an external experience
for me, Like I love I'm cool with the way
I look, I'm cool with all that. But for some reason,
just the concept of having a womb and the concept
of being pregnant is absolutely mortifying to me. So I
communicated with the partner I had at the time, and
we both were very much team abortion. We called I'm
(52:27):
nervous as hell. I make an appointment for the first
one that was available for saying in the morning, like
eight in the morning, I believe, as soon as I
could get one was about a week out too, which
was not fun because I'm sitting for a week going
still pregnant, not not too stoked on that, you know.
I remember walking in seeing protesters they had something there
(52:48):
was there was a signage that was specifically um like
targeting or marketing father saying like it's your baby too.
And when I go in, the person in the whoever
the receptionist was, was just the sweetest person in the
world is immediately smiling at me, and a lot of
my anxiety kind of went down after meeting them, and
they were playing Maide in Manhattan in the lobby. Oh lord,
(53:10):
almost sund on your faith right there, and I'm Puerto Rican,
so I was like, wait, this let's be a sign
JL Yes, Jlo soothed my fears about this abortion situation.
I chose to have a medication abortion specifically versus a
surgical one because well, one, it was cheaper by about
a hundred dollars and this was not something that I
(53:33):
had pocket money for. Um. And the second big reason
for me is I was really uncomfortable with the concept
of having someone just in my crotch. UM. I did
not want to be exposed to strangers in that way.
I felt really uncomfortable with that. So I thought that
this would be a better a better option because I
(53:54):
could take I could take these pills, I could go home.
You take one at the clinic and then you take
the rest home like Unfortunately, that same year, something passed
in Florida right before I went to get my abortion,
where you had to get a transvaginal ultrasound that is
an internal ultrasound. That is not the cute see in
the movies, A little bit of Jilli on your telling
me no, they put something inside you. And that is
(54:15):
kind of what I was trying to avoid. That kind
of situation was exactly what I was trying to stare
away from by choosing medication abortion. But unfortunately they wanted to,
I guess, make sure that I was pregnant, even though
I was pretty damn sure I was pregnant. Um, and
then when I went back for a follow up in
two weeks, I had to do that again. Um. Yeah,
(54:41):
at the time, this is this happened in two thousand eleven.
I want to stay around there. You know, at the time,
there weren't a lot of conversations about trans people in
medical spaces, especially in healthcare situations. You know, there's no
you'll see it now, especially now that I live in
(55:02):
Los Angeles, you know, and you fill out your forms,
there's a space for a preferred name, there's a space
for your pronouns. I feel like now we're beginning to
recognize that everybody who has a uterus or needs, you know,
this kind of reproductive health care is going to identify
as a woman. So fantastic, But again, ten years ago,
not not a thing. So I had to go into
(55:22):
this thing by myself and have conversations with you know,
very sweet staff. Really, I really appreciate how much they
were trying to help me, but it was really difficult
to go in for service where every two seconds you're
being miss gendered and you're being talked to and about
as if you are of an identity that you're not.
(55:46):
Being miss gendered is very much an act of violence,
and it's very upsetting to have to be in that
space where you're already vulnerable something I don't like being,
and then I have to navigate that. I didn't tell
very many people about it either, with my older sister
at the time too, and I never mentioned it. You know,
clearly I was unwell, but I didn't talk about it.
(56:06):
I didn't even tell my family till years later. For me,
the experience was something that I just it was in
the way. It was just something I needed to get done,
UM so I could continue my life. I've never felt
guilty about it. I've never felt um, you know, ashamed
of having had an abortion. It was just it's a thing.
It happened. I had my feelings, and I'm moving on.
(56:28):
I did a fellowship UH and an internship with Planned
Parenthood specifically, and I volunteered with NAREL and other other organizations,
other reproductive rights UM organizations and the experiences weren't weren't great.
I feel like even though that these people, you know,
we're definitely trying to fight for the same endgame where
you know, obviously abortion accesses is fully there. The way
(56:50):
that I was spoken to, especially then, was not acceptable.
You know, it was always very much you know, we
have to make sure women have access to this first,
and then we'll cover nuances like you know, transgender not
conforming people accessing abortion, or people of color neating abortion.
The narrative was always very much around since gendered white women,
and I just I was always put off by that
(57:11):
because it just doesn't that's not how this works. It's
never it's never been successful to just aim to support
one group and then it trickles down. That's it's never worked.
So I don't know where that idea came from. So
when I was finally presented with an opportunity to be
in a cohort where the majority of the people there
are people of color, and eventually, you know, I was
(57:31):
the only trans person at first, but eventually not. Now
there are other trans people talking about similar experiences. When
I first heard that there was another trans person who
was going to be joining me testify I cried because
I had not I've never met or spoken to any
other trans person that's had an abortion. I know where,
(57:52):
I know we're there, I know we're out here. It's
just it's a completely different experience. We can actually interact
with that person when other people, specially um, you know,
you've come to me other trans folks and then gender
not conforming folks come to me with you know, you
made me feel like like I'm okay, like I'm gonna
be fine. You know, we're out here. This is normal.
(58:12):
My heart, I can't. It kills me, but it's good.
It's good. High listeners for all of you who have
been with us these last four episodes, Thank you so
much for listening. Two quick things. One, if you're interested,
Alison Leavy's comedy show Oh God to show about abortion
(58:35):
got extended. Find more about how to see it in
l A or New York at Oh God show dot com. Also,
how are you all doing considering all that's happened. I'd
love to hear from you. You can call this number
one eight four four four seven nine seven eight eight
three and leave me a message about what you're thinking,
(58:57):
or maybe the actions you're taking, or even things you
have learned and want to share about abortion. Your message
might be included in a future episode, and we really
will appreciate hearing from you. All that number again one
eight four four four seven nine seven eight eight three.
(59:17):
Abortion The Body Politic is executive produced by me Katie
Couric and was created by small team led by our
intrepid supervising producer Lauren Hansen. Editing and sound designed by
Derrick Clements researched by Nina Perlman. Production and editing help
for this episode from Julia Weaver and Mary do and
(59:40):
a special thanks to k c M producers Courtney Litz
and Adriana Fasio
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