Abortion: The Body Politic, Part 6

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm Katie Curic and this is Abortion the Body Politic,
Part six. We started this series by visiting the last
abortion clinic in Missouri. That was when ROW was still intact,
but even then Missouri had some of the most restrictive
laws in the country. We had three patients today, and

(00:22):
there's entire months where we aren't here at all because
we can't staff this clinic. But just fifteen minutes away
across the state line in southern Illinois, another clinic that
we visited was already preparing for our new reality. This
is an additional waiting room, so on really busy days,

(00:43):
UM patients can also wait back here. So now that
ROW has been overturned, what are things like today? We
check back in with someone who works at both of
these clinics to find out the impact of the Supreme
Court decision before we could stand up out of our
seats and moved to another room. Missourian's lost access to abortion.

(01:06):
Dr Kelley McNicholas, I'm the chief medical officer for Planned
Parenthood of the St. Louis Region in southwest Missouri. When
the news hit on Friday June Dr McNicholas was in
a conference room in St. Louis with Missouri Representative Corey
Bush and Health in Human Services Secretary Javier B. Serra.
As we were wrapping that round table, we got word

(01:29):
that the decision had dropped in. There was, you know,
a room full of incredibly dedicated folks, some of whom
have spent their entire career on abortion access, hearing it
all for the first time, and it certainly was emotional,
and there were folks, certainly some folks were shedding tears.
And before we could even get out of the room
to process what was happening, we had heard that Missouri's

(01:51):
Attorney General had in fact immediately invoked the trigger ban um.
It was a bit surreal to have that experience with
the Secretary of HHS in our presence um, where you know,
we could show him, you know, the real on the
ground impact of that decision even immediately as we had

(02:15):
to then, you know, make sure that our call center
was aware of the decision and the trigger being implemented UM,
so that as patients called, they had the right information
to give to folks. We quickly regrouped and everybody, including
the Secretary, headed over to the Fairview Heights Plumbic because
I thought it was incredibly important for him to see

(02:37):
the other side, to see what it was like and
feel what it was like to lose access to this
basic care um in one state, and then truly drive
just fifteen minutes down the road across the river, as
we say, UM, to a place where we were now
preparing to see a flood of patients. Illinois is uniquely situated,

(03:01):
um unlike other critical access states, as being truly a
blue island in the middle of a completely red sea
or what will soon be a red sea. So for
us in southern Illinois, you know, we are surrounded by Missouri, Tennessee, Indiana,
and then you know, as you move further south, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Mississippi, Texas,

(03:25):
these are all states that are already have banned um
abortion or severely limited it, or in the coming weeks months,
um we'll move to completely ban it altogether. And so
you know, as we think about the public health crisis
that this has now sparked, we're talking about mass mobilization
of tens of thousands of people for basic abortion care,

(03:49):
many of whom will be looking to the closest geographic area,
which for lots of them will be southern Illinois. So
this is the Fairview Heights Health Center. It is an
e teen thousand square foot building. When I got a
chance to tour the Illinois Clinic in May and it
is built as a search site as we call it,

(04:09):
it was pretty clear this facility was set up for
the future. So you have a few case managers who
were working to navigate patients there, patients who have to
deal with all the challenges of getting an abortion these days,
from the cost to the travel to hotel needs, all

(04:30):
of it can be taken care of in a phone
call with one case worker. A case worker like Caroline. Alright,
so you're going to transfer her over, I'll just actually
need the moment. Caroline is a veteran of the Fairview
Heights Health Center, having worked there for three years, first
booking appointments and then moving over to the logistics center

(04:53):
when it opened in January of no problem. So in
that situation, this is a person that was previously scheduled
and she was quoted a price point. This person had
a cost that was I'm a five hundred and sixty dollars.

(05:15):
She made it in clinic and her gestation was way
further than what she expected. So her cost of service
is extremely more than what she expected to pay. She
was already needing assistance. She's only able to provide a
hundred and fifty dollars towards her total cost of service.
She has a balance of one thousand and thirty dollars
that she'll need assistance for. Her appointment is in a

(05:37):
few days. Of course, she can't just come up with
five hundred and some more dollars. So that's why we
are needed, Like I'm gonna find the funds for so
she can receive the services. So that's a prime example
of what's going on here. The center was designed to
accommodate an increase in patience. So as you walked on

(05:58):
the hall, there are lots of rooms that you'll see
that you know are still empty, not in use, because
we're going to be it's designed to scale up. Southern
Illinois is expecting fourteen thousand abortion refugees from other states
every year. When I visited two months ago, all the
empty procedure rooms, counseling spaces, and waiting areas weren't needed yet.

(06:22):
But Dr McNicholas says it's taken no time for the
center to fill up. I'll tell you that the volume
is coming, I would say, at at a faster pace
than we even anticipated. So within the first seventy two
hours after the decision, our way time went from about
three to four days to now being already two weeks.

(06:44):
In the last couple of days, I have started my
interactions with patients by acknowledging that they've come a long
way for this care. And you know, the range of
responses has been anywhere from I've had no choice, um.
I remember a woman from mississipp Be just looked at
me and said I didn't have a choice. Um. And
she and then continued to say, but I'm grateful that

(07:06):
you're here, um, to folks who just really broke down
because just getting there was so difficult. Um. We're still
in that phase where folks had appointments already established and
on the books in their home state right. And so
some of those folks are, you know, still getting over
the reality that it really was overnight that they went

(07:27):
from being able to go down the street to now
having to go hundreds of miles. The consequences of the
Supreme Court decision are playing out in other ways as well.
I mean, we have also seen all sorts of medications
now at pharmacies being delayed or denied because of potential
implications on pregnancy or miscarriage. You know, methatric state for example,

(07:51):
to medication we routinely use for ec topic pregnancies. It's
also one of the main stay therapies for folks who
have lupus or arthritis, for example. So folks who have
been maintaining their health with these critical medications are now
also finding themselves in places where they can't even get
care for non pregnancy related health care issues. Because of

(08:15):
how broad and wide sweeping this decision is, ending access
to abortion in one or multiple states was never the
end goal, and we should be prepared for what the
next wave of a tax looks like. Criminalization is certainly
one of those, not just for folks who are having abortion,

(08:35):
but also the folks who are providing that care. And so,
you know, I think as we look to the next
legislative session and we are looking to broaden our our
areas of support, you know, this is a place where
we're going to need to engage folks outside of our
typical movement and really make sure that the fight to
um to prevent some of these things is robust and

(08:59):
in aggressive. My name is Danassessman. I am the acting
executive director at National Advocates for Pregnant Women, and we
are an organization that defends the civil and human rights
of people who are targeted for criminalization or other state
intervention because of pregnancy or because of a pregnancy outcome,

(09:21):
including a pregnancy loss like still birth or miscarriage, abortion,
or continuing a pregnancy and giving birth. One of the
ways that we're trying to get prepared for this new
reality is by working across disciplines. We are engaging more
and more with healthcare providers, with child welfare workers, with UM,

(09:44):
criminal defense attorneys, and even with police and prosecutors UM.
Because so many of our cases originate in medical settings.
We've had nurses call the police because they thought that
a pregnant woman intentionally fell down a flight of stair
is in order to end her pregnancy. UM. She in
fact was lightheaded, fell down the flight of stairs, went

(10:07):
to the hospital to make sure that her pregnancy was okay,
that she she and her pregnancy were okay, and UM
and had shared that she had contemplated having an abortion
earlier on in her pregnancy, but had changed her mind
her The nurse hearing that story spoke with the doctor
and one of them called the police and she was
charged with attempted feet aside, we understand that there will

(10:31):
be situations in which nurses and doctors and hospital based
social workers will feel like they are required to call
the police. And what we're trying to do is provide
more information and tools to health care workers so that
they understand that they don't have to report their patients,
and their obligations to their patients include minimizing harm to

(10:55):
them and to their families UM, which means not involving
criminal enforcement in their lives. UM. So we are focusing
on interdisciplinary response and an all hands on deck response
because that's sort of what's demanded in this crisis. And
you know, one example that we have that we can

(11:16):
point to is the Latis Fisher case, which is a
case we worked on in nineteen a case out of
Mississippi where a woman who maintained consistently that she experiences
still birth called nine because she was experiencing a medical
emergency and was deemed suspect because at some point in

(11:38):
her pregnancy she had googled medication abortion UM and I
just think that we have very few cases to point to,
but that is one, and I think very um informative
of of of what we may see in the not
so distant future. We've been asked a few times, you
know what, what what would you advise someone who wants

(12:00):
to get an abortion or wants to access medication abortion
in a banned state? What would you advise them to
do with respect to sort of getting information? And I
said something along the lines of talked to as few
people as possible. It's so utterly devastating to think that
we are now forced to advise people to not share

(12:24):
what they're going through with others for fear of facing criminal,
criminal repercussions, not just for themselves, but maybe even for
the people who helped them. I think it's not disconnected
from what is also happening, which is that primarily women,

(12:45):
but all people with the capacity for pregnancy will not
be part of public life, you know that. I think
about the generational impact that this could have if things
don't how dramatically shift, you know, in the next round
of elections. And I don't have a lot of hope.

(13:06):
There's a lot of analysis over what having access to
abortion has allowed. It allows women to stay in college,
and it allows women to move to move out of poverty.
And we will see a general disappearance of women from
public life. And we may not see it in two

(13:27):
years or in five years, but in twenty years or
in thirty years, we will see such a dramatic shift
in who is participating in public discourse, who are the
people we see publicly, who is making policy. I'm mourned
for that. I'm mourn for the individual people who will
be impacted, but I also mourned for what we will
miss as a society coming up, what the public and

(13:52):
private sectors are doing to protect abortion. I think this
hashtag say abortion started with I actually believe it was
Renee Bracy Sherman from We Testify started using that hashtag

(14:13):
during the presidential debates because she noticed that none of
the Democratic candidates seemed willing to actually say the word abortion,
and we're instead using euphemisms to talk about abortion, so
saying like uh, women's health or reproductive choice, like really
skirting saying the word abortion. My name is Caramailman, my

(14:38):
pronouns are they and he. I am the chief research
analyst for Reproaction part of the reason it's so important
to hear our politicians, like our Democratic progressive leaders say
the word abortion is because our opposition isn't afraid to
say the word abortion. They love to talk about abortion
because they see it as a winning issue for them.

(14:59):
And if we an abortion to become a winning issue
for us, which it is that the majority of people
support abortion and abortion access, we actually have to be
willing to say the word Chairwoman Maloney and ranking Member Comer,
thank you for inviting me to speak today. Congresswoman Pramalajaia
Paul is a Democrat from Washington State. I speak to

(15:20):
you as one of the one in four women in
America who have had an abortion. She's not only one
of the few politicians willing to say the word abortion,
she was one of the first to share her own
abortion story, first in an op ed in twenty nineteen,
and then before Congress in I remember googling congress member

(15:45):
abortion story to see if anybody else had talked about
it at the time, and what did you find? The
only person I found was Jackie Spear. Congressman Jackie Spear
had on the floor of the House in really anger
towards a number of comments that were being made by
a Republican member. You know, I had really planned to

(16:08):
speak about something else, but the gentleman from New Jersey
has just put my stomach in knots because I'm one
of those women he spoke about just now, I had
a procedure at seventeen weeks. She talked about the medical
necessities that she faced when she had her abortion. It

(16:31):
was quite a different story, but it was the only
time I found and so I just decided to go ahead.
And um, I think the reaction was overwhelming from across
the country, including from some people I didn't expect. You know,
a man who identified himself as a Republican who doesn't

(16:53):
believe in abortion, and he read it and he said,
I came away with a deep respect for something you said,
which is that you are not trying to tell anybody
else to have an abortion, and nobody should tell you
not to have one. He said, I think I have
been convinced, so mission accomplished. Yes, at least for that

(17:14):
one person. What is your reaction to what's going on
in this country visa the abortion rights It is a catastrophic,
dismissive and demeaning. UH decision that the Supreme Court has
put forward. I feel outraged and fury because it isn't

(17:41):
just and I don't say just dismissively. I had an abortion.
I know what it means to be pregnant. Um, it
isn't just about the nine months of pregnancy. It is
actually about our agency as equal citizens to be able
to control our lives. Our lives do not stop to
matter the more mint of conception. And I think that

(18:02):
is the issue that we just have to keep reminding
people of. We are. We are part of the economic
engine of this country, and we have to have the
right to control our own bodies and our own futures.
The US is now one of only four countries that
have actively moved backwards on reproductive rights. So what does

(18:26):
this say to other nations and how does it affect
our standing in the world. We are already being seen
as a country that cannot call ourselves the leader of
the free world. Um, it becomes very difficult. There are
fifty countries in the last twenty five years that have

(18:47):
expanded access to abortion, and we are going in the
opposite direction. We are out of sync with the American people,
and we are out of sync with the world, and
it really affects our ability to say that we lead
on anything. And let's just think about the fact that
these hypocritical Republicans say that they're pro life, pro child,
pro family, but every single one of them have opposed

(19:10):
paid family leave, childcare, the child tax credit. You can
go through the list. So obviously, UM, that also affects us.
And I've had world leaders you know, are people in
other governments saying to me, the United States is not
the country we thought it was. We are going to
have to take up leadership, um, because the United States

(19:32):
is not capable of offering that. Do you think it
will change? Can you bring the United States back as
the world power that it once was and that it
could be and should be? And my answer is yes,
we can, but it does depend on the people turning
out and voting for people, um, and eliminating some of

(19:52):
these systemic barriers like the filibuster. In the time since
we spoke President Biden's find an executive order on abortion rights,
I'm asking the Justice Department that, much like they did
in the Civil rights there, to do something, do everything
in their power to protect these women seeking to invoke

(20:14):
their rights. As of this recording, abortion is already banned
in at least eight states, and President Biden doesn't have
the power to restore abortion access in those states. But
the Biden administration is directing doctors everywhere that if a
pregnancy is causing a medical emergency, doctors are obligated to

(20:36):
perform the life saving abortion, regardless of state law. Hospitals
that don't comply could lose their Medicare status. On Twitter,
conscious woman Jaia Paul thanked President Biden for signing the
executive order and called on Congress to codify ROW, which
would require either changing the filibuster or electing a stronger

(20:59):
Democrat majority in the mid terms. Voting is absolutely critical. Um.
I also think that there are media things around providing
support to UH pregnant people who are in these states
that have banned abortion. That is really really important, and
I hope there will be a series of actions that

(21:20):
lead it up to voting that are about demonstrating our
power in this economy. You know, I floated the idea
of a national strike and I'm working on it and
let's see if we can get there. But I think
it's important for people to understand we have power. We
have to show it. We have to assist those who
are hurting right now, and we have to vote in November.

(21:44):
While reproductive rights advocates within the public sector figure out
ways to protect abortion access. Rushmasu Johnny, an activist for
Paid Family Leave, told me back in March that businesses
need to step up. The private center has kind of
not dealt with Roving Wade and reproductive rights because I

(22:04):
think they never thought maybe the moment would come. And
so it's up to businesses to provide, you know, basically
provide abortion access to their employees. Like one out of
three employees will have an abortion at some point, right
so this is like the vast majority, you know, of
their population. So they have to think about how they're
going to actually protect support, you know what I mean,

(22:27):
the right to choose. Like if if I'm employed and
I live in Texas and that Texas is now you know,
outlawed abortions, You're going to have to pay for me
to get to New York City, you know what I mean,
my flight, my airfare, the cost of it, you know,
it is now your problem. And and I think that
this is also the cost of when companies actually don't
stand up and speak out. You know and join the fight.

(22:49):
I think we have to, you know, they have to
basically play a role in making sure that this right
exists for women. In fact, in the days and weeks
since the road decision came down, many companies, from City
Group to Yelp have responded by boosting travel reimbursement programs
and creating funds that do exactly what Russima suggested cover

(23:12):
the costs associated with getting an abortion. The CEO of
Amalgamated Bank, Priscilla Simms Brown, was one of the first
to reveal such a plan. In an interview on CNBC,
she explained why abortion is absolutely a corporate responsibility. We
want to both hire and retain qualified women. In particular,

(23:37):
we want to give them opportunities um and we want
to deliver on our diversity and inclusion goals. These are
just important issues to women, and we have taken a
terrible step back for half of America's workforce. We'll be
right back. I think there is a short term need

(24:03):
and then there's we need a long term strategy. Again.
Here's Dr Colleen McNicholas from the Planned Parenthood Health Center
and Fairview Heights, Illinois. The short term need really does
have to focus on getting people from point A to
point B and then back home home. And so as
much as folks can utilize resources grassroots organizations UM that

(24:28):
are on the ground doing that work, abortion funds, practical
support organizations, or the Regional Logistics Center for example, who
are already doing the work figuring out that infrastructure. But
the long term plan um and strategy really I think
needs to be around accountability. In this moment, I think
it's a real opportunity for us as a movement to say,

(24:52):
you know, all of the historic uh concessions that were
made around abortion, you know, the big tent and room
for everybody. You know, that approach is what got us
here um. And so if we are going to rebuild
a system that works for everybody and provides access to
abortion throughout pregnancy where people are when they need it,

(25:14):
we really have got to start holding people accountable. And
so whether that means that, you know, we stopped giving
them dollars when they're running for office because they've demonstrated that,
in fact, they aren't going to do the things that
they say. They don't understand that abortion is something we
cannot compromise on. You know, I think we just have
to to think about how we are holding those elected

(25:35):
officials accountable. If we are going to rebuild better, and
when we do rebuild better um and and more equitable,
that it will have a um an intersectional approach, right,
and that that it will truly pull in folks from
all of the different justice movements, because the truth is,
you know, abortion is a racial justice issue, and it
is an immigrant justice issue, and it is an environmental

(25:58):
justice issue. And so if we are to help folks
reframe to understand why the ideal is abortion care when
you need it, where you need it, and paid for
by your either public or private insurance, they must also
understand how it fits into each one of those sectors
of life. As we learned in our last episode, taking

(26:20):
a global perspective may help us navigate the long road ahead.
So once again is one of the leaders of the
green Weight movement in Latin America, Paula Avila Gian to
those who are just starting to realizing, Welcome to the fight.
Don't never feel that that you are too late. It's
never too late to fight for our autonomy. Welcome it doesn't,

(26:43):
I don't. I don't care how you talk about this
or if you're political correct or if you you you
are just starting to learn about this subject, just welcome.
We need you. We need as many people as possible
because the only way to win this fight is by
h adding numbers to the troops. For those who have

(27:07):
been fighting like me for a very long time, we
need to cry for a little bit because this is
going to be a very uh even though we know
it has been happening and it's going to happen for
a very long time. It's a very hard moment. It's
a very dark moment. But after we cry, we need
to get up. We need to wear our green wherever

(27:28):
you have and just use it every day, and it
starts showing up to every single march. Start writing to
every person you know and tell them how they need
to speak up. They need to use social media, they
need to show up. They need to write letters to legislators.
Follow all the organizations and all the work of abortion

(27:49):
phones and on other organizations leaders to find ways how
you can get involved. Sometimes showing to march this is
the most powerful thing that you can do. Sometimes, don't
need in money is the most important thing that you
can do, But you need to do something about you
need to take an action in this moment. We cannot
have the privilege to just stay comfortable in our homes anymore.

(28:11):
We cannot have the privilege of the silent. We need
to show up. We need to learn about the consequences
of of the backlash, and we need to be prepared
for what is coming, because it's not going to be
a short fight. It's going to be a long fight, unfortunately.
But we need to show up and more people. Have

(28:33):
the conversation with your mother, have the conversation with your sister,
if you feel um encouraged and ready tell your abortion
and story. If you um feel that you need to
um write something right it and send them. Pressure the
media to keep covering this issue because this is going

(28:54):
to be in a media cycle. We are going to
have some months in which everybody's going to talk about this,
and then people are going to forget, and so we
need to keep the pressure into our duty of all
of us to make sure that nobody forgets that the
next crisis doesn't forget about this one. And to our electroficials,
it's on you. This is following and it's on you

(29:16):
to fix it. There actually are more people on the
side of reproductive rights. After all, we know that the
majority of Americans, as many as eight per believe that
abortion should be legally accessible. So how can we better
represent that majority? How can we bring those people out

(29:37):
of the shadows and into the fight. We got the
chance to consider these questions with someone in a group
not often seen on the front lines of this issue,
the topic of abortion. There's a lot of shame and
secrecy around the topic in general, and particularly in Republican circles.

(30:00):
People just won't talk, women don't talk about it. I
had no idea how my even family members felt about
the topic. My name is Katherine Kaufman. I am a
former political appointee in the Trump administration and current mother

(30:20):
of three in rural Lexington, Kentucky. After serving as the
Minister on Gender Equity to the nineteen G seven in France,
I was overwhelmed by the feeling of loss for the
United States as a global leader on gender equity because

(30:42):
of our position on sexual reproductive health. And upon returning
from that experience to hear of the law in Mississippi
and my own personal experience with infertility and IVF, I

(31:04):
published an op ed in The Washington Post calling for
Republicans to find our voice and speak out in favor
of women's rights and support of global gender equity. When
I published that op ed, I was advised by a
friend of mine who's in the space, to go dark

(31:28):
on basically everything you know social media, don't check your email,
don't ever open something that you don't know you know,
make sure your address is in public. And the White
House published their own response, and I was personally attacked
by people in the White House at the time, But

(31:49):
other than those extreme individuals, I was overwhelmed with love
and support. I had thousands of responses, all positive direct
to me. Yes, I believe you, Yes, I'm with you,
this is exactly where we need to be. This is
how I feel, This is how my mother feels, this
is how my sister feels. But very few of those

(32:13):
people wanted to share that on a public platform. And
I have yet to meet someone in the Republican Party
who hasn't been willing to have a conversation with me
about a different platform, like a mother and child platform
that brings civility back to the conversation and lets us

(32:33):
connect as humans, men and women who they truly do.
Even my father who um, you know, is the treasurer
for the r n C and is the most loyal
Republican out there. He's out He'll say, well, I am
pro life, but you know, after our woman has been

(32:56):
told our options and spoken to the doctor, of course,
that eats her choice. You know, Like, well, dad, that's
always And so when you say are you an outline
in the Republican Party because you're pro choice, I've really
tried to define myself as someone who's pro mother and child,

(33:19):
who um, you know, just has a deep compassion for
both pregnant women and children that need support, and I
think it's an easier way to talk about it. I
don't think that you can have gender equity or claim

(33:44):
to have an equitable country without full sexual reproductive health rights.
That's where I've landed on that topic. Um. But I'm
not as pessimistic on the legislation being black and white
and that being impossible for us to come to good
legislation that does represent both the miracle of life and

(34:07):
the complexities of birth. I think sometimes we think we're
pushed to these polar opposites, and that's just politics, and
that's just the country we live in, and we kind
of give up a little bit, and I actually think
that we can really use our common sense. The polling
is actually really encouraging. I mean, there's probably not an

(34:29):
issue Americans actually agree on as much as we do,
as you know, of us think abortion should be legal,
which is again reflective of how poor job the labels
do of reflecting our position, because then only fifty five
still a clear majority. But if only of Americans claim

(34:50):
that they're pro choice but believe abortion, so it's it's all.
There is a middle. And I think that if we
did take the time to educated ourselves on what is
actually needed for for true gender equity, if we look
at the outcome that we're trying to get to rather

(35:13):
than just and my pro life approach choice, what is
the outcome that we want. We want less abortions, we
want you know, full equity. We want to take care
of the children that are alive and languishing in our
foster care system, which by the ways, I think upwards
of four and twenty four thousand. We don't want women

(35:35):
to die giving birth, and yet we're the only developed
country in the world where maternal mortality is on the rise.
And these things are to me This is all very
clearly connected, and we have to focus our attention to
the output that we really want, which is are there
more loved, safe and secure children with safe, healthy mothers

(36:01):
in a country that cares for all of them? And
it's a much better question to get to and what
are the policies we need to put in place to
get to that outcome. This fight not only needs more people,
but new tools of engagement, tools like TikTok. My name
is Olivia Juliana Alivia Juliana on All Socials, and I'm

(36:25):
a nineteen year old political strategist and abortion rights activists
from deep in the heart of Texas, and I'm most
well known for abortion advocacy work and working for the
organization called gen Z for Change. Olivia's TikTok platform and
others like it has helped shift the abortion right side

(36:46):
of the fight from playing defense to playing offense. Last year,
tax has passed what's known as Senta Bill eight, which
at the time was the most restrictive abortion band in
the country, and it was civilian forced, so civilians and
private citizens could now try to enforce this against each other.

(37:06):
I thought it was a blatant violation of privacy, and
I thought it was blatantly unconstitutional. So as upset, and
then I saw Texas Right to Life, which is an
anti choice or pro life organization, put out a tipline
that was made with the intention of allowing people to

(37:26):
report abortion providers or people who have helped someone get
an abortion past the six week mark in the state
of Texas, and I was I was annoyed because these
are the same people that are constantly complaining and calling
things orwell in and saying like, oh, this is like
N four, But now they're trying to incentivize people to

(37:51):
report their neighbors for health care procedures that they've made
about their choices they've made for their own bodies. So
as a young person his proficient in the Internet, I
was like, you know, there's no way that they can
tell if these tips are true or not or authentic.

(38:14):
And so the year previously, TikTok and gen Z had
kind of taken this approach to reserve tickets to a
Trump event and then not go so with that idea,
I was like, we should do the same thing with
this tip line. So I'm in a video on TikTok
encouraging people to go leave a quote, very authentic tip

(38:40):
because I would never encourage people to be dishonest um,
and it just blew up from their Other TikTokers jumped
on the same thing. And one of my good friends
who's also our digital strategy associated gen Z but Change,
Seawan Wiggs. He created a mode that you could run

(39:01):
on your computer and it would just constantly send tips
to this tipline and it just kept going and going
and going, and eventually the tipline website crashed and it
couldn't be used anymore. And then once that happened, the
public caught on even more and the host eventually dropped
the site. So to this day, that tipline is gone,

(39:23):
like it's not been put back up again and right
to life. As an organization that has branches in every
state across the country, and to this point we have
not seen another tip line of that nature pop up
in any other state. I think gen Z is really
unique because not only are we like writing and willing

(39:45):
to march in the streets and go out and vote
for pro choice champions, but we also know how to
utilize digital tools in the Internet to fight back against
oppressive things as well. I always say, people ask me, like,
is social media good? Is it? Is it a new

(40:06):
is it like a blatant good that we can use
for things? And in the abortion rights area, I find
that it has been overwhelmingly used for good. It's been
used to share resources, it's been used to uplift calls
to action for specific things. In Texas, a woman was
arrested on a murder charge for having what was called

(40:27):
a spontaneous abortion, and the call to action was to
call the sheriff and the district attorneys in Star County
and demand that she'd be released. Because we were able
to boost that action on social media, we had calls
and emails coming from across the country. I think my

(40:48):
videos about the specific event got upwards of five hundred
thousand views, and um, she was eventually released because the
district attorney decided not to proceed with the arges and
they just connected the email and the phone lines. So
I think it's just something that we've been blessed to
be able to have in this fight. And I also

(41:09):
think that we are more inclusive in terms of I
think we're seeing younger and younger people getting invested in
this fight. I think like we think young people people
think like fifteen, sixteen, seventeen years old. I've been in
events where I've seen ten year olds speak about abortion

(41:32):
access and other issues like this. And I also think
it's important because of inclusivity in terms of, like, it's
not just women who have abortions, it's also transgender and
non binary people as well. And I think that my
generation has done a really good job of scoping out
the intersection ng communities and identities that will be affected

(41:56):
by these problems. And I think a large part of
that is social media and different communities that are kind
of coming together around these collective actions. So I think
it's a really unique thing that we've kind of been afforded,
and I think that it's genuinely going to help us
going forward in terms of continuing to do this work.

(42:16):
A nineteen I shouldn't be having to organize and rally
against elected officials and Supreme Court justices. I should be
at parties and spending my parents money buying cute clothes,
and yeah, here we are. So it's it's a very

(42:40):
bitter sweet because I feel like a lot of us
have been robbed of our youth. But I also am
very grateful Um, that's so many young people have kind
of answered the call to fight back against these kinds
of things. I wouldn't change the direction of my life now.

(43:02):
My life has been changed by activism work and by
working with other young organizers. And I think that that's
a sentiment that a lot of us share is it's difficult,
it's tiring, it's overwhelming, but it's also extremely rewarding to
know that you're not alone in fighting for these kinds
of things. When we come back, when your abortion goes viral.

(43:27):
What we can learn from Busy Phillips road from after
to activists that's right after this, and I thought, well,
I'm here now, like I have this nightly thing and
we need to we need to do something. Busy Phillips

(43:48):
is a great example of the impact pop culture and
social media can have on making the personal political. She's
become a prominent and reliable presence in the abortion activisms
base in the last few years, headlining a talk with
Planned Parenthood president Alexis McGill johnson at south By Southwest.

(44:10):
So very chill time to be talking about this in Texas.
Lets intact, Yeah, And getting arrested outside the steps of
the Supreme Court after row was overturned. For you, guys,

(44:31):
Busy had an abortion when she was fifteen and living
in Arizona. She shared her story publicly in her memoir
This will only hurt a little. Everyone in the press
like sort of focused on James Franco, which is like
such an I roll to me, because I'd like written
this whole book about what my experience as a woman

(44:53):
in this specific time in this industry was. And then
every single headline like around the world was like actress
Busy Phillips, bashist, James Franco and new memoir. And I
was like, guys, I mean the book is literally almost
four pages. There is half a paragraph about what happened
between me and James, which we've talked about publicly before together.

(45:16):
Calm down, welcome to the world of clickbase. But I
felt like a little bit like I got away with it,
like I didn't have to talk about my abortion in
that way. I didn't get click baited with the abortion.
And so I was like, great, like, did that got
to tell my story? It'll matter to the people who
read it. It It won't matter to other people. I won't
get all this stuff. The blowback from it I did it,

(45:42):
and then these extreme abortion bands started happening, and I thought, well,
I want to say something on my late night show.
Part of the reason why I even wanted to have
one was because there are certain things that I really
believe like and we had seen. I had seen I'm
friends with Jimmy and Molly Kimmel, and I had seen

(46:04):
how Jimmy was really moved by what their son Billy
went through, and like really their realization of what the
health care liamscape is for people in this country, and
how he he was like, I can't just stand by.
I have to say something about this, and really used

(46:25):
that opportunity and it made a big difference. It did.
It was pretty moving and profound what he did. And
I thought, well, I'm here now, like I have this
nightly thing and we need to we need to do something. Well, listen,
I have to say something um here at busy tonight.

(46:46):
You know, we tend not to be overtly political, but
you know, as it turns out, I'm just trying to
be like a woman in the world is political. And
so Brian Kemp, the governor of Georgia, was going to
sign their extreme abortion ban into law, and that was.

(47:08):
I had spoken with a bunch of people in the
reprayer rights space and we decided, we had decided before
that even happened, that we would wait until he did
that and then I would talk about it on the show.
The statistic is one and four women will have an
abortion before age, and that statistics sometimes surprises people. And

(47:30):
maybe you're sitting there and thinking, I don't know a
woman who would have an abortion. Well, you know me,
I had an abortion when I was fifteen years old.
And I'm telling you this because I'm genuinely really scared
for women and girls. People that you love have had abortions,
whether they're talking about it or not. And then yeah,

(47:54):
the hashtag was Tina phase idea, you know, largely based
off of the Toronto Burt's me Too hashtag, which was
kind of amazing, I mean kind of you know, a phenomenon.
And I I was very hesitant about that, about jumping
into that because first of all, I like, as a

(48:14):
white woman, I'm always trying to be aware of co
opting spaces where people have been doing work for a
long time. And then I'm like, Hi, but I'm in
the face of this now. Thanks, you know what, I mean,
so I was a little hesitant. But then I was
at dinner with my friends Jenny and Goldie and yeah,
Alabama passed that law, and I was so angry and

(48:37):
I was like, I'm doing it. I'm just gonna I'm
gonna do it. And we wrote the tweet at the table,
and I was like, there's so nervous, so nervous. I
don't want what if it's like becomes oh god, what
if I get trolled? Like I just had all of
those feelings. I pressed and we finished our wine and
dinner and I was like, I'm not going to look
at this again tonight. I'm not just I'm not. And

(49:00):
then I think it was like the next day somebody
called me. I was like, oh my god, do you
know how many people are doing this? And it's everywhere.
It's on Facebook, it's on Instagram. I was like, what,
that's amazing, that's so great. And I had literally like
women coming up to me while I was crossing the
street in Los Angeles like running up to tell me,

(49:21):
like to thank me, and to say I had an abortion.
Oh my god, I'm so grateful. I'm able to say
it because I don't feel anything about it. I'm just
so glad I get to say it. And I sat
next to a woman on the plane who was a
mom of three who had had a very wanted pregnancy
that she had to have an abortion because of things

(49:42):
that were very medically it was medically necessary abortion, and said,
you know, I went through this alone. No one at
work went knew what I was going through, a lot
of my family didn't, a lot of my friends didn't.
And I felt so alone and so sad because I

(50:03):
had such shame about it, because I was afraid that
people would judge me. And I wrote my whole story
like the day after your talk show thing, I saw
it on TV. I wrote this whole post on Facebook
and I can't tell you like how free I feel now.
And I was just like, well yeah. By June, a

(50:31):
few weeks after going viral with her you know me hashtag,
my name is Busy Phillips. Busy testified before Congress abortion
is healthcare and should not be treated as different from
any other healthcare. I am so sad that we have
to sit here in front of a row of politicians

(50:53):
and give deeply personal statements because the why doesn't matter.
It should not matter. I'm here today because I stand
by the decision that I made when I was fifteen
years old. I am here today because my platform has
allowed me to connect with thousands and thousands of people
around the country that you represent who have made the

(51:16):
same choice I have made, but who will not all
get the same chance to talk to you directly. I
had a real like bright spot right after I had
testified before Congress because um, one of the women from
Planned Parenthood told me that, uh, after the you know

(51:36):
me like hashtag thing went viral and people were really
sharing their abortion stories, that the approval rating for abortion
went up. It's always the majority of people, but it goes,
it hovers, that goes between you know, like seventy five
and like eighty five percent, And it was like at
an all time ten year high right after that, and

(51:58):
I was like, that's cool. People are talking about this
in a way that humanizes, right, and they're sharing their
experiences very plainly. And no one's experience is more valid
than anyone else's. Because I was fifteen and it was
an unwanted pregnancy is no more valid than a woman
who has to has a very wanted pregnancy and has

(52:19):
to have a medical you know, intervention abortion, or a
person who's had three children and it's like, oh my god,
I thought I was going through menopause. Here's ship Okay,
I'm gonna an abortion. Like the reason why doesn't matter, right, Like,
you're allowed to have control over your body and what's
happening in it. And so that really crystallized for me

(52:45):
that the piece that has been missing the whole time
is the message, is the being vocal, is saying just
practice saying it, like, yeah, I had an abortion last week.
I had an abortion when I was fifteen. I had
an abortion when I was fifteen. Practice saying it without
any judgment on yourself or anyone else. Oh yeah, she

(53:06):
know she had an abortion last year. I think when right?
That was like, may right, Okay, Suresha. We've been allowed,
like we've we've allowed the other side to control a
narrative about our bodies for so long. We've allowed them
to tell us what's shameful. We've allowed them to scream

(53:28):
at us and tell us that we did this as
if our boyfriends had nothing to do with it. And
I'm not ashamed that I was born with a uterus
and ovariase. I'm not ashamed of my humanity and the

(53:50):
idea that we should be as women, that we should
be as people with uteruses is absurd. I feel like
in the country genre, there's just not a lot of
people representing for the folks of us that do believe

(54:11):
that we should have bodily and family autonomy. Amanda Shires
is a Nashville based singer songwriter who has used her
music to process her own abortion, but also to infiltrate
an industry and an audience that hasn't exactly cotton to
a conversation about reproductive rights. Some people hear music and

(54:34):
they don't really pay attention to the words too much,
and they really like the song, so they might download it.
Then they might read the words and they're like, oh,
so you can get in to to somebody's mind a
little bit in And then Amanda released two versions of
a song. One was called Our Problem, the other The Problem.

(54:58):
I started writing that song after I had an abortion.
My friend um at the time that took me. She
didn't have the same views as I did about it,
you know. And then I found that out, you know,
as I was going through this, as I was like
calling to make an appointment. Then they put you on
the waiting period, and then you go and then they

(55:20):
do the consultation and it's oh, all so many steps
and she sees, you know, kind of this process. And
and in the end what stuck, what stuck with me
was that she, despite her differences at the time, she
she was on my side. So that's where the idea started.

(55:41):
Are you feeling, well, are you gonna tell how long
have you know to tell something wrong? Just to be
a week? So you tell them many broke get all

(56:09):
our problem is? Um is a is a story of
the group of girls sitting around discussing somebody else's abortion.
I wanted it to be in many voices because when
I was going through this, I didn't realize that there
were more people that had been through this, you know.

(56:30):
So I was writing thinking like, I wish there was
more people that felt okay talking about it more candidly.
And I think that hearing different voice tones, like touches,
different frequencies, and then having the like camaraderie or the
divine feminine collaboration, all that together kind of amplifies the

(56:54):
message and also makes people feel like, you know, I'm
not a bad person, you know, And and that's what
people need to know. Remember, okay, you why she dropped.

(57:15):
I also wrote a version with Jason, my husband, about it,
and UM, I got to the idea of the you know,
me and Jason talking about it, you know, from our perspective,
but also where you know, I had to make it rhyme,
so some of the details aren't exactly right what you want.

(57:36):
I'm scared to even say this has been the hardest cue.
I thought that, you know, including him, because his platform
is bigger and because he has the same views on
it as I do. He was willing, and I thought,
you know, like we always think that telling telling our truth.

(58:00):
Maybe if it changed one mind or maybe inspired conversations. Uh,
that's all helpful, you know. I just think that UM
or thought and still think that. UM. It's it's important
for for um everybody to be talking and helping as
best they can. It's important for you know, white men

(58:24):
to say I believe that you should have rights over
your body. Also, you know, and you know, in some
ways that song was hard to sing. When Jason sings
with me, I felt like I could sing it better,
you know, like, Okay, I don't have to stand up
here and wait for somebody to throw something at me.
Jason's right here, you know, um, because you know, sometimes

(58:46):
you don't know who you're gonna wind up singing too,
and sometimes it just takes a little bit more backbone
and you find that in your friends, for your family.
And that's what I did. And there was just an
outpouring of people sharing their stories everywhere from you know,

(59:09):
age thirteen to eight, and I was just flooded with
with like warmth than like like a sense of belonging.
It was so it was touching, is what it was,
and it was also healing. I would do it all
over every every day if it was Groundhog's Day. So
I do hate that not not more folks are using

(59:32):
you know, their platforms too, you know, to help and
to teach their fan base. Not teach their fan base,
but kind of like just say something, because even if
you could change one mind, you never know. I've been
thinking a lot about rage and pleasure and action. I

(59:53):
think that it is really important for women and non
biners people in general like me who have been trained
away from their rage to reunite with it in healthy ways.
Like the song we Won't Go Back, just using like
heavy drums and guitar and so to to conjure up
that that feeling in me so I could recognize it,

(01:00:14):
embrace it and then UM find ways of building pleasure
in my body so I can come to a state
of clarity so that I know how to act, because
I don't know if it's fair to expect from ourselves
UH solutions and action items when we are still in
a rage slash numb cycle. You know, we have to

(01:00:35):
we have to take care of ourselves so we can
be the best tools for change. My name is Connie
Limb and I go by the artist's named milk UM.
It's spelled m I l c K and yes, like
the substance that women create to nourish the next generation
and for non binaries as well. We Won't Go Back

(01:00:58):
is essentially a battle cry that is completely written, produced
and performed by women and non binary people. UM. I
am so proud of this project because it is turning
an anxiety and a fear into something powerful UM that
I hope can help energize people as we continue to

(01:01:20):
find ways to work through our burnout and work through
our disappointment and our hurt and you know, work towards
sustainable change. I happened to be in Washington, d C.
I landed the day um after the political article leaked,
so I happened to take the train into d C

(01:01:42):
for something entirely different. But when I set my luggage
down in my hotel room, I had two choices. I
had the choice of either to like lie down on
that very comfortable looking bed and get some room service,
or take the lift and go to the Supreme Court
and just soak in the energy of the people and
our reaction to this potential overturning of Roe v. Wade.

(01:02:04):
When I was at the protest in front of the
Supreme Court, I started filming everything because I felt like
I was witnessing something historic. Um and the chance of
the people were very clear and very powerful. And the
the chant that really got me to have my voice
leap out of my own chest was we won't go back.

(01:02:25):
And that chant just like brought chills down my back.
So I went back to my hotel room, I rewatched
the videos just to kind of take in the day
and reflect, and then that chant came up on my
photos app and I listened to it, and immediately the
whole idea of the song just rushed through me. What

(01:02:50):
I do should be my own juice. We won't won't go,
we will, we will, we will, we will, And then
I count. I had to test and to see what
the rhythm was, and so when I tapped out the tempo,
it was actually one and twenty beats per minute, and
one per minute is a really popular metric because it

(01:03:11):
is the um the average rate of the heart beating.
And so all the lyrics and the melodies, ideas the drums,

(01:03:32):
the guitar, all of that started flooding out and I
didn't completely finish the song, and I had an ideas like,
why don't I make this fun? And so I posted
instrumental parts of the song and invited people to write
their lyrics. And the reason why I wanted to do
that was because in times where we feel powerless, creativity

(01:03:56):
is a really safe container for us to actice creation
and to practice agency. I got tons of lyrics, and
there was one particular lyric that stood out to me
from a fan, which is the opening line of the
song is my body is a revolution because the current
law is going to make voices feel less safe to

(01:04:20):
tell their stories. That's when I clean on music. I
had to protest secretly in my own home because the
ideas I had just were too radical for my traditional
family at that time, and I found that writing music
helped me um disguise my truth and help me express them.

(01:04:43):
I feel that community is more important than ever, like
actual real friendship, so that we can privately share our
stories if we don't feel safe, and I hope that
we can just keep our eyes and ears open of
who we can be witnesses for. This entire song was
made with love by women and non binary individuals with

(01:05:08):
such a pure um intention of reclaiming our power and
witnessing ourselves in our power. So when people listen to this,
I hope that they want to listen to it again
because it makes them feel physically and emotionally good and rejuvenated. Um,
because this is gonna be um an intense journey of

(01:05:32):
resilience and persistence. So I just hope that this song
is like kind of like a snack in the middle
of the day, helps bring a jolt of energy when
you purchase We Won't Go Back of the proceeds go
to the yellow Hammer Fond and Planned Parenthood. This is

(01:05:57):
the final official episode of Abortion the Body Politic. Thank
you all so much for listening to this series. There's
so much more to say about this topic, and if
you subscribe to my podcast, Next Question with Katie Couric,
you can keep up with any updates and interviews that
come up over the summer and in my next sixth season.

(01:06:18):
We do have a bonus episode of this series releasing
next week. So many people generously shared their abortion stories
in the making of this podcast, and we wanted to
end with their voices. You'll hear some familiar ones. Busy
Philip shares her abortion story, as does Congresswoman Jaia Paul

(01:06:39):
and Gloria Steinem. In the descriptions of all of these episodes,
we've listed resources and ways you can help, not to
mention things you can do to continue the fight abortion.
The Body Politic is executive produced by me Katie Couric

(01:07:01):
and was created by small team led by our intrepid
supervising producer Lauren Hansen. Editing and sound designed by Derrick Clements,
researched by Nina Perlman. Production helped this week from Mary
do and a shout out to the Aspen Ideas Festival
for letting me record in their studios. While I was there,

(01:07:22):
and finally a special thank you to Casey M producers
Sam Phalon, Courtney Litz, and Adriana Fasio.

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Abortion: The Body Politic, Part 6

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